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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Richard B. Russell Library Oral History Documentary Collection
Subject
The topic of the resource
Georgia--History
Description
An account of the resource
Oral history collection consisting of interviews conducted for the Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies since 2003.<br /><br /><a href="http://georgiaoralhistory.libs.uga.edu/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=&range=&collection=3&type=&tags=OHMS&featured=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">View all OHMS indexed interviews in this collection here. </a>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2003-ongoing
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Oral histories
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL175OHD
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Georgia
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
OHMS Object
Contains the OHMS link to the XML file within the OHMS viewer.
https://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL175OHD-026/ohms
OHMS Object Text
Contains OHMS index and/or transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable.
5.4 Interview with Linda Fuller, June 17, 2015 RBRL175OHD-026 RBRL175OHD Russell Library Oral History Documentary Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies, University of Georgia Linda Fuller Degelmann Steven Armour oral history 0 Kaltura video < ; iframe id=" ; kaltura_player" ; src=" ; https://cdnapisec.kaltura.com/p/1727411/sp/172741100/embedIframeJs/uiconf_id/26879422/partner_id/1727411?iframeembed=true& ; playerId=kaltura_player& ; entry_id=1_1t4gw9ls& ; flashvars[localizationCode]=en& ; amp ; flashvars[leadWithHTML5]=true& ; amp ; flashvars[sideBarContainer.plugin]=true& ; amp ; flashvars[sideBarContainer.position]=left& ; amp ; flashvars[sideBarContainer.clickToClose]=true& ; amp ; flashvars[chapters.plugin]=true& ; amp ; flashvars[chapters.layout]=vertical& ; amp ; flashvars[chapters.thumbnailRotator]=false& ; amp ; flashvars[streamSelector.plugin]=true& ; amp ; flashvars[EmbedPlayer.SpinnerTarget]=videoHolder& ; amp ; flashvars[dualScreen.plugin]=true& ; amp ; & ; wid=0_sgn6cc3w" ; width=" ; 400" ; height=" ; 285" ; allowfullscreen webkitallowfullscreen mozAllowFullScreen allow=" ; autoplay * ; fullscreen * ; encrypted-media *" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; title=" ; Kaltura Player" ; > ; < ; /iframe> ; English 55 Missionary Work in Zaire I want to kind of focus on some of the international aspects of what you were doing, beginning with your work in Zaire in 1973. How did that experience set the stage for everything that came after? Fuller describes her and her husband, Millard Fuller's work as Christian missionaries in Zaire which lead to the foundation of Habitat for Humanity's international work. She mentions the prevalence of poverty and inadequate housing in Zaire, now known as the Democratic Republic of the Congo, and she discusses how her and her husband introduced partnership housing to build durable houses. Potential homeowners had to clear their own land and dig their own latrines, but the Fullers employed locals to build the houses. Fuller mentions the difficulty of obtaining land from the government and fixing broken machinery which initially delayed the project. By the end of three years, the Fullers helped build 120 houses in Mbandaka, and they inspired a nearby village to use the same model of partnership housing. Fuller describes how their success in Americus, Georgia and Mbandaka, Zaire led her and her husband to found Habitat for Humanity. Bokotola ; Christianity ; Don Mosley ; Koinonia Farm ; Mbandaka, Democratic Republic of the Congo ; Mission trip ; Ntonda ; racial discrimination ; segregation ; The Democratic Republic of the Congo ; The Disciples of Christ Church 0.047, 18.255 17 Mbandaka, Democratic Republic of the Congo 631 Expansion of Habitat for Humanity International So, when we came back, we realized that the idea not only worked, but it worked really well, and we set ourselves a goal to eliminate poverty housing in the world. Fuller describes how her and her husband returned from their mission in Zaire with the goal of eliminating poverty housing across the world. She discusses how Millard Fuller's ambitious goals caused internal tensions in Habitat for Humanity ; however, she says that her husband met all his goals by constantly inspiring others to help. Fuller talks about the expansion of Habitat for Humanity, starting in Guatemala before spreading across the world. Fuller describes how it became easier to start projects in new areas as the organization grew because they learned from early mistakes. She describes recruiting international partners to work with local people in each new location, using strict accounting procedures after discovering the misuse of funds, and only using local material and local people to build the houses. Fuller discusses how Habitat for Humanity operated differently oversees than in the United States, mentioning the importance of international fundraising. appropriate technology ; donors ; family ; nonprofit management ; photography ; recruitment ; regional management ; volunteer labor 1353 The beginning and evolution of Habitat for Humanity I had a thought, just a few minutes ago, about the way we started in the beginning. Fuller describes organizational changes in Habitat for Humanity, discussing how the organization transitioned from volunteer labor to paid labor in order to manage its rapid growth. She talks about how initially, neither her or her husband received a salary, describing how the organization was managed by volunteers. Fuller talks about how Millard Fuller devoted his time to fundraising in order to support the growing number of employees needed to sustain the large organization. Fuller credits President Jimmy Carter and Rosalynn Carter for helping Habitat for Humanity grow. She talks about how the Carters continue to host an annual Carter Project where they spend a week building houses with Habitat for Humanity. Americus, GA ; fundraising ; international travel ; management ; oversight 32.075278, -84.226667 17 Americus, GA where the Habitat for Humanity headquarters is located 1998 Decision making process and community resistance to volunteers Once work hit a global scale with Habitat--when things were being done. You have got to a point where things are really going on around the world. Fuller describes the difference between houses built by Habitat for Humanity around the world, discussing how the organization determines the size and style of each house by studying potential homeowners' former dwellings. She talks about how Habitat tries to build inexpensive and durable houses because new homeowners have to have an income in order to pay back to cost of materials in monthly installments. Fuller also discusses past tensions between the outside volunteers and local community members due to cultural differences. affordable housing ; appropriate technology ; counterculture ; payment plans ; volunteerism ; workforce 2540 Leadership role as a woman I want to switch gears a little bit and talk about your leadership role with Habitat and with the Fuller Center as a woman? Fuller describes her changing role in Habitat for Humanity as she transitioned from secretarial work and bookkeeping to developing regional centers and starting new initiatives. Fuller talks about how Rosalynn Carter's involvement with Habitat for Humanity increased the number of female volunteers and lead to the development of women's builds. Fuller also discusses how she launched the Mental Health Partnership Program which helped people with mental health issues get Habitat houses. books ; dictation ; family ; Lowe's ; photography ; small business ; typing ; working mother 3113 Split with Habitat for Humanity At the time, you and Millard throughout the controversy where you left--you're no longer with Habitat. Eventually you went on to form the Fuller Center. Fuller describes how she was forced to leave Habitat for Humanity due to a controversy involving sexual assault allegations against her husband. She talks about conflict between her husband and the board over the future of the organization, stating how Millard Fuller wanted to keep the headquarter's in Americus, Georgia and spend less money on administration while the governing board wanted to move the headquarters to Atlanta and raise salaries. Fuller describes pain of being forced out of Habitat for Humanity, but she states that the organization is still doing important work despite being distanced from its biblical roots. Christian organizations ; conflict ; ministry ; resignation ; sexual misconduct 3648 Founding the Fuller Center and retirement So Millard--he kind of saw the writing on the wall, and he began to talk to other people. Linda Fuller describes how she and her husband founded The Fuller Center for Housing in 2005 after being forced to leave Habitat for Humanity. She describes the Fuller Center as a housing ministry that is more focused on Christianity and less corporate than Habitat for Humanity. Fuller talks about her husband's unexpected death in 2009. She describes remarrying two years after her husband's death and retiring from the Fuller Center in order to focus more on her family. Christian organization ; Christianity ; Church ; David Snell ; grandchildren ; poverty housing ; retirement 4110 Increased need for housing ministries As we sort of start to draw things to a close, I want to just ask you, looking back at your life's work. You've really gotten to see the shape of what's happening with poverty housing over the course of several decades now. Fuller talks about new challenges in the fight to eliminate poverty housing including increased housing costs and a shrinking middle class. She describes the changing demographics of people who are homeless or in poverty housing, talking about the increased number of families and elderly people who need houses.She also discusses a new program by the Fuller Center called Greater Blessings that helps elderly homeowners with home repairs. income inequality ; Lind-A Hand build ; poverty ; sharecropping ; Sumter County. GA ; tenant farmers No transcript. Resources may be used under the guidelines described by the U.S. Copyright Office in Section 107, Title 17, United States Code (Fair use). Parties interested in production or commercial use of the resources should contact the Russell Library for a fee schedule. video 0 RBRL175OHD-026.xml RBRL175OHD-026.xml http://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL175OHD/findingaid
Location
The location of the interview
Americus, Georgia
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
79 minutes
Repository
Name of repository the interview is from
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Linda Fuller, June 17, 2015
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL175OHD-026
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Linda Fuller Degelmann
Steven Armour
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video
oral histories
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Subject
The topic of the resource
Nonprofit organizations
Religion
Women--Political activity
Gender
Public housing
Description
An account of the resource
Linda Fuller Degelmann co-founded Habitat for Humanity International with her husband Millard Fuller. Through her work at Habitat for Humanity she has helped create initiatives such as the Carter Work Projects, Women’s Builds, and mental health care partnerships. After her work with Habitat for Humanity, she and Millard founded another housing ministry, the Fuller Center. In this interview, Fuller discusses how the original goal of addressing poverty housing grew into an international organization. She comments on the broad trends in poverty-housing as well as her specific experiences that illuminate the lessons and challenges she has learned through her decades-long career.<br /><br /><span>Linda Fuller was born in Birmingham, Alabama in 1941. She married her husband, Millard Fuller in 1959. He was a fellow attorney/businessman in a marketing firm. His drive and expertise made them a very wealthy couple. Due to their suffering marriage, they reevaluated their values and made a commitment to the Christian ideals. After leaving his high-profile job, they started a low-cost home program in southwest Georgia. Afterwards, Linda and Millard did several years of housing work in Zaire (presently the Democratic Republic of the Congo). Due to the success of the work in Zaire, Millard and Linda established Habitat for Humanity International in 1976. Habitat for Humanity International focuses on the housing needs of people all around the world. In 2005, they were forced out of Habitat for Humanity International, so they founded the Fuller Center for Housing. There Linda started her own female-led housing projects. Millard unexpectedly died in 2009, and in 2011 Linda got remarried to Paul Degelmann. Linda Fuller today focuses on the Fuller Center for Housing to deliver affordable housing to any persons in need.</span>
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-06-17
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
United States
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
moving image
OHMS
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Athens Oral History Project
Description
An account of the resource
The Athens Oral History Project was initiated in 2014 to document modern Athens history, roughly from the mid-twentieth century to the present. Interviews cover topics such as neighborhoods and communities in Athens, civil rights demonstrations, African American history, as well as personal histories of narrators.<br /><br /><span><strong>Content Warning</strong>: Some interviews in this collection contain harmful or distressing content, to include racism, racial violence, and racial slurs.</span><br /><br /><a href="http://georgiaoralhistory.libs.uga.edu/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=&range=&collection=1&type=&tags=OHMS&featured=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">View all OHMS indexed interviews in this collection here.</a>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2014-ongoing
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Athens, Georgia
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL361AOHP
Subject
The topic of the resource
Georgia--History, Local
Georgia--Communities
African Americans--History
Athens Black History
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Oral histories
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
OHMS Object
Contains the OHMS link to the XML file within the OHMS viewer.
https://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL361AOHP-010/ohms
OHMS Object Text
Contains OHMS index and/or transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable.
5.2 Interview with Broderick Flanigan, July 29, 2015 RBRL361AOHP-010 RBRL361AOHP Athens Oral History Project Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies, University of Georgia Broderick Flanigan Alexander Stephens oral history 0 Kaltura audio < ; iframe id=" ; kaltura_player" ; src=" ; https://cdnapisec.kaltura.com/p/1727411/sp/172741100/embedIframeJs/uiconf_id/26879422/partner_id/1727411?iframeembed=true& ; playerId=kaltura_player& ; entry_id=1_2qsdxjom& ; flashvars[localizationCode]=en& ; flashvars[leadWithHTML5]=true& ; flashvars[sideBarContainer.plugin]=true& ; flashvars[sideBarContainer.position]=left& ; flashvars[sideBarContainer.clickToClose]=true& ; flashvars[chapters.plugin]=true& ; flashvars[chapters.layout]=vertical& ; flashvars[chapters.thumbnailRotator]=false& ; flashvars[streamSelector.plugin]=true& ; flashvars[EmbedPlayer.SpinnerTarget]=videoHolder& ; flashvars[dualScreen.plugin]=true& ; & ; wid=1_vj4nva7c" ; width=" ; 304" ; height=" ; 231" ; allowfullscreen webkitallowfullscreen mozAllowFullScreen allow=" ; autoplay * ; fullscreen * ; encrypted-media *" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; title=" ; Kaltura Player" ; > ; < ; /iframe> ; English 56 Family history I was hoping you could share what you know about your family's history in Athens? Flanigan talks about his family and their history in Athens, Georgia. Flanagan remembers his maternal grandfather, an entrepreneur who sold BBQ and wood for the winter. Flanigan also talks about his father, who used to live on River Street and spent his childhood running about the neighborhood. Flanigan explains how his family eventually stopped attending church after his grandmother, who was the family's main church attendant, passed away. College Station Road ; Ebenezer West Baptist Church ; Oconee River ; River Street ; Ted Bullock 17 469 Early education So when you moved from there, where'd you go next? Flanigan gives details into his family's moving history after the death of his grandmother. Flanigan describes the process of changing elementary schools, and how the adjustments did not affect his love for school. Flanigan describes his experience attending Clarke Country High School, where he began to build a liking for basketball. Clarke County High School ; Fourth street Elementary ; Gaines Elementary School ; Rock Springs 17 872 School mentor / Living in Nellie B neighborhood So even though y'all were moving around a lot, it sounds like school was also a priority? Flanigan recalls the impact of his middle school mentor, Wayne Fairfax, on his life. Flanigan talks about how Wayne enhanced his interest in swimming, basketball, and jazz. Flaningan talks about his mother, and credits her illustrations for pushing him to pursue art. Flanigan describes living in Nellie B, a public housing Athenian neighborhood recognized in the mid 90's for its high crime rates. Flanigan describes the unexpectedly close community he grew up in, and his thoughts when revisiting the neighborhood as an adult. East Athens Community Center ; Wayne Fairfax 17 1375 Living in Nellie B (cont.) / Volunteering at Clarke Central High School That's interesting, because your description sounds a lot like the other neighborhoods you lived in... Flanigan continues to describe the Nellie B neighborhood, noting how outside perceptions of Nellie B often times differed from reality. Flanigan recalls his appreciation of basketball and mentions the relationship with his basketball coach, Billy Wade. Flanigan recounts his experience living in Newport News, Virginia after graduating high school and also details the process of returning to Georgia to attend Georgia Southern University. Flanigan discusses the setbacks he encountered after the job requirements for his major changed, and he talks about his job as a substitute teacher and his experience volunteering at Clark Central High School. higher education ; teaching 17 1788 Becoming a mentor It sounds like you found a lot of ways to keep yourself busy and moving forward. Flanigan talks about how his parents' perseverance inspired him to keep moving forward despite the hurdles he faced in choosing his career. Flanigan gives insight into his parents' life and talks about his mom's injury which resulted with her being placed on disability. Flanigan recounts how the combination of becoming the mentor of a child he taught and taking an art and business course eventually led him on the road of becoming a community activist. Barnett Shoals Elementary ; Clarke Central High School ; Clarke County Mentor Program ; Continued Education Center ; Disability ; University of Georgia 17 2196 Starting Flanigan's Portrait Studio Could you talk about the vision for that, and how it started? Flanigan talks about how his business, Flanigan's Portrait Studio, started as a way to supplement income when his art wasn't selling. He describes the transformation of his studio to a creative workplace for kids. Flanigan describes his involvement at the Chess and Community Center, and specifically how its founder, Lemuel LaRoche, inspired him to become a mentor to other children. Flanigan describes the ensuing transformation that occurs in children's behavior after becoming a part of the Chess and Community Center. Flanigan talks about the isolation between the community and University of Georgia as felt by low-income children who live around the university. Chess and Community Center ; Flanigan's Portrait Studio ; Lemuel LaRoche ; University of Georgia 17 2401 UGA's relationship to surrounding communities / Getting the community involved When you say it changes their perspective, what is their perspective before? Flanigan explains the isolation and limitation local kids feel toward their life and particularly towards the University of Georgia, as many low-income children don't actively participate in the campus culture. Flanigan reflects on his own thoughts about UGA, and how he never foresaw attending the university due to his status. Flanigan talks about the First Fridays Initiative where non-profits come to the East Athens Community Center and invite the people to actively participate in the community. Flanigan describes how he started First Fridays, as he saw that low-income Athenians often did not participate in community service activities. East Athens Community Center ; First Friday's Family Day ; University of Georgia 17 2915 Experiences in mentoring Are there any particular experiences you've had with kids that have really moved you or changed you? Flanigan discusses his thoughts about mentoring and his fears of not making a difference. Flanigan recalls an interaction he had with a pupil, in which he was moved by a student's revelation toward police and the community. Flanigan reflects on the impact of his own mentor, and how his memory inspires Flanigan to continue his work. mentoring ; police ; police violence 17 3192 Gentrification in Athens / Making a community What have you seen happening in that neighborhood? Flanigan discusses the gentrification of his new neighborhood located in the East Athens community. He talks about the how the expansion of student housing has forced the older population out of their homes, due to increased tax rates. Flanigan describes the change he would like to see in his community and his wish for more personal and positive interactions among neighbors. community ; gentrification ; home values 17 Resources may be used under the guidelines described by the U.S. Copyright Office in Section 107, Title 17, United States Code (Fair use). Parties interested in production or commercial use of the resources should contact the Russell Library for a fee schedule. audio 0 http://ohms.libs.uga.edu/viewer.php?cachefile=russell/RBRL361AOHP-010.xml RBRL361AOHP-010.xml http://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL361AOHP/findingaid
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
62 minutes
Location
The location of the interview
Athens, Georgia
Repository
Name of repository the interview is from
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Broderick Flanigan, July 29, 2015
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL361AOHP-010
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
audio
oral histories
Subject
The topic of the resource
Public housing
Coach-athlete relationships
Mentoring in education
Community activists
Gentrification
African Americans--History
Politics and Public Policy
Athens Black History
Nonprofit organizations
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Broderick Flanigan
Alexander Stephens
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-29
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
sound
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Athens, Georgia
Description
An account of the resource
Broderick Flanigan was born in Athens, Georgia in 1983. He attended Gaines Elementary School and later Clarke Central High School. During this time, Flanigan lived in the Nellie B neighborhood, a historically prominent neighborhood in Athens. Flanigan currently works as a mentor in his community as the owner of Flanigan's Portrait Studio. In this interview, Flanigan talks about his upbringing, his work and inspiration in mentorship, the importance of a community, and the relationship between the Athens community and the University of Georgia.
OHMS
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Athens Oral History Project
Description
An account of the resource
The Athens Oral History Project was initiated in 2014 to document modern Athens history, roughly from the mid-twentieth century to the present. Interviews cover topics such as neighborhoods and communities in Athens, civil rights demonstrations, African American history, as well as personal histories of narrators.<br /><br /><span><strong>Content Warning</strong>: Some interviews in this collection contain harmful or distressing content, to include racism, racial violence, and racial slurs.</span><br /><br /><a href="http://georgiaoralhistory.libs.uga.edu/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=&range=&collection=1&type=&tags=OHMS&featured=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">View all OHMS indexed interviews in this collection here.</a>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2014-ongoing
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Athens, Georgia
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL361AOHP
Subject
The topic of the resource
Georgia--History, Local
Georgia--Communities
African Americans--History
Athens Black History
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Oral histories
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
OHMS Object Text
Contains OHMS index and/or transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable.
5.4 Interview with Linda Davis, September 2, 2019 RBRL361AOHP-027 RBRL361AOHP Athens Oral History Project Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies, University of Georgia Linda Davis Kimberly Davis 0 Kaltura audio < ; iframe id=" ; kaltura_player" ; src=" ; https://cdnapisec.kaltura.com/p/1727411/sp/172741100/embedIframeJs/uiconf_id/26879422/partner_id/1727411?iframeembed=true& ; playerId=kaltura_player& ; entry_id=1_3xfqe0hx& ; flashvars[localizationCode]=en& ; flashvars[leadWithHTML5]=true& ; flashvars[sideBarContainer.plugin]=true& ; flashvars[sideBarContainer.position]=left& ; flashvars[sideBarContainer.clickToClose]=true& ; flashvars[chapters.plugin]=true& ; flashvars[chapters.layout]=vertical& ; flashvars[chapters.thumbnailRotator]=false& ; flashvars[streamSelector.plugin]=true& ; flashvars[EmbedPlayer.SpinnerTarget]=videoHolder& ; flashvars[dualScreen.plugin]=true& ; flashvars[Kaltura.addCrossoriginToIframe]=true& ; & ; wid=1_wr4fku5v" ; width=" ; 400" ; height=" ; 285" ; allowfullscreen webkitallowfullscreen mozAllowFullScreen allow=" ; autoplay * ; fullscreen * ; encrypted-media *" ; sandbox=" ; allow-forms allow-same-origin allow-scripts allow-top-navigation allow-pointer-lock allow-popups" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; title=" ; Kaltura Player" ; > ; < ; /iframe> ; 0 Family Background Okay, so just give us your full name please. Linda Jacquelyn Elder Davis gives a description of her family, being the sixth born of seven children to Mattie Louise Elder Davis and Earnest Elder in Athens, Georgia. She was born at the Susan Medical Center, which Dr. Andrew Jones built as a maternity hospital for black women and later sold to Dr. Donarell Green Jr. Green & ; Green, LLP ; West Hancock Ave 108 Hawthorne Avenue/ Brooklyn Road And so talk a little bit about the area you were born in... Davis provides a description of where Hawthorne Ave, which used to be Brooklyn Rd, extended as well as the roads that extended off of it. Alps Rd ; Alps Road Elementary School ; Athens, Ga ; Atlanta Highway ; Atlanta, Ga ; Broad St ; Hawthorne Ext ; Highway 78 ; Old West Broad St ; Prince Ave ; West Lake Dr 296 Brooklyn Neighborhood And so when you were growing up, what was this neighborhood known as? Davis clarifies what her perspective of Brooklyn was growing up. She discusses a grocery store her father would visit only a couple times a year as how she knew of W Broad St. The center of their neighborhood was more or less where Mt Pleasant Baptist Church sat, where Old W Broad St intersected Hawthorne Ave. Their black community extended to Old Alps Bridge Rd. She then goes into detail about the locations of roads leading up to an empty lot, where a Catholic church was later built. Athens, Ga ; Atlanta Highway ; Broad St ; Hawthorne Ave ; Highway 78 ; James St ; Julius Dr ; Smith St ; St Joseph Catholic Church ; Walker St 443 Land Owners on Hawthorne Ave And so, what I later learned, and this might be... Davis gives a detailed description of which houses and land was owned by who in the Brooklyn community, specifically on or near Hawthorne Ave,. She begins and ends with Ed Bazzelle, who owned a lot of land and contributed to the creation of the subdivision behind Hawthorne. Much of her information, especially street names, was learned once she'd looked through deeds and property records. When she was growing up, most of Brooklyn was dirt roads and there were no street signs. Athens, Ga ; Brooklyn Comunity ; Helen Eley ; Salvation Army 650 Ed Bazzelle/Pauldoe And.. and who was Ed Bazzelle? Davis shares what she knows about Ed Bazzelle, such as he and Gertrude Smith being married by Common Law. Davis' aunt married Smith's son, Robert Lois Smith. Bazzelle owned at least 21 properties which were lost to a county tax sale. Her house and one other were the last on Hawthorne Ave after all the commercialization she noticed. Included in the commercialization is what used to be a residential community, the Jack R Wells Community, which was called Pauldoe, named for a black employee of the Housing Authority. Ten acres of the land used came from Helen Eley, and 29 acres from Walt Frost. The community exhibited five bedroom homes with indoor plumbing, but had very strict rules for eligibility. Athens Housing Authority ; Athens, Ga ; Brooklyn Community ; Urban Renewal 1090 Adolescent Years in Brooklyn When you say restricted in your movement around the city... Davis' father being 60 when she was born, had little patience and simple but strict rule while she was growing up. She and her siblings earned money for the movie theater by shelling peas at the Farmer's Market in sight from their house. They were also free to go to Girl Scouts meetings and piano lessons, which she stopped attending. Davis then provided a few details about the school district system and her grade school history. She was in ninth grade when desegregation gave her the choice of which school to attend. Athens High School (Clarke Central High School) ; Athens, Ga ; Athens-Clarke County School Dristict ; Burney-Harris-Lyons Middle School (Lyons Junior High School) ; Clarke Junior High School (Clarke Middle School) ; integration ; Lyons Elementary School ; Magnolia St ; North Athens Elementary School ; Reese Street District https://getd.libs.uga.edu/pdfs/knight_monica_d_200708_phd.pdf Seeking Education for Liberation: The Development of Black Schools in Athens, Georgia from Emancipation Through Desegregation by Monica Dellenberger Knight 1430 Personal Brooklyn Landmarks So I guess I'm trying to get a sense of what your life was like. Davis considers landmarks in Brooklyn to be places along her " ; safe route," ; or the places she was allowed by her father to go. This included everything around Hawthorne Ave, Old West Broad St, and across West Broad St. Although black people were allowed to go to the Georgia Theater, her father wouldn't let them, so she would go to the Harlem Theater. Later in her high school years she would sometimes go to the Beechwood Shopping Center or the drive-in theater once she got a car. Athens, Ga ; Downtown Athens ; Dunbar Library (The Dunbar Branch Library) ; Susan Medical Center 1685 History of Brooklyn Cemetery And so, what does, where does the Brooklyn Cemetery fit into all this... Davis announces that she had limited knowledge and experience about the Brooklyn Cemetery when she was younger, as she'd never went to any funerals and doesn't recall if they considered it a part of their community. Her only knowledge of it was that people in the community were buried there. Today, the cemetery is owned by the Bethlehem Cemetery Society with a re-established trust. The University of Georgia's Public Interest Project researched the cemetery for the Friends of Brooklyn Cemetery group, who also re-established the trust and has a mission to bring dignity back to the cemetery. Contrary to what is commonly believed, Davis informs that families went to the cemetery to clean off graves and visit relatives, particularly on homecoming days. In the Brooklyn Community, this was typically the place one was buried if they did not have a church graveyard or family lot. Athens, Ga ; Bishop Park ; Ed Bazzele ; Gertrude Smith ; Gospel Pilgrim ; Hawthorne Ave ; Oconee County ; Old West Broad St ; Tignall Cemetery ; Tignall, Ga ; Watkinsville, Ga http://www.brooklyncemetery.org/history.html A brief history of the Brooklyn Cemetery as found on the Friends of Brooklyn Cemetery Website https://digilab.libs.uga.edu/cemetery/exhibits/show/brooklyn/brooklyn-cemetery--a-history-a A brief history of the Brooklyn Cemetery as found from University of Georgia's Brooklyn Cemetery Project 2135 The People in Brooklyn Cemetery I was asking if the people who lived in Brooklyn were buried... Davis and her colleagues have labeled a specific part of the Brooklyn Cemetery " ; Section A" ; for people who lived in Brooklyn and were buried there. Her and Melvin Stroud find walking through that section being very similar to walking down the road at Brooklyn from all the names they knew in their community. Davis informs that Brooklyn Cemetery has three different burial sites, and Thelma Hurley had explained to her that there were three burial plots. She also points out that when Robert Harrison walks through Section G, he recognizes names from First AME Church. Athens, Ga ; Bethlehem Cemetery Society ; First African Methodist Episcopal (AME) Church ; Hurley Funeral Home https://digilab.libs.uga.edu/cemetery/exhibits/show/brooklyn/who-is-buried-in-brooklyn- Notable people buried in the Brooklyn Cemetery https://digilab.libs.uga.edu/cemetery/exhibits/show/brooklyn/brooklyncemeterymap A map of Brooklyn Cemetery including locations of graves and names. 2300 A Brooklyn Funeral And then you once told be that if you walked in a straight line... Davis explains that there were no ambulances, so a hearse acted as one, at least in the black community, until the 1950s. The funeral home would be called and one would either wind up at the hospital or the morgue. Most of her information about funerals in Brooklyn comes from interviews she had with others because she'd never been to one in her youth. Harold Writtenberry had shared his experiences during funeral processions walking up Baxter St to get to the cemetery, carrying the coffin. Athens Regional Health Center ; Athens, Ga ; Magnolia St ; St. Mary’s Hospital 2477 The Birth of Brooklyn And so, again, not knowing the full history of Brooklyn... Davis shares her knowledge about an article that was published by a member of her church that discusses the Northern troops during either WWI or WWII who began calling the area " ; Brooklyn." ; The name only stuck in the black community with boundaries including Baxter St, where the troops' mess hall was located, all the way to where the Brooklyn Creek feeds into the Oconee River. Davis shares one last story about an Uncle Tom that her mom had spoken about who owned property by the river. Athens, Ga ; Beachwood Hills ; Brooklyn Cemetery ; Brooklyn Community ; Brooklyn Road ; W Broad St ; World War I (WWI) ; World War II (WWII) Oral History No transcript. Resources may be used under the guidelines described by the U.S. Copyright Office in Section 107, Title 17, United States Code (Fair use). Parties interested in production or commercial use of the resources should contact the Russell Library for a fee schedule. audio 0 http://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL361AOHP/findingaid
OHMS Object
Contains the OHMS link to the XML file within the OHMS viewer.
https://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL361AOHP-027/ohms
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
46 minutes
Location
The location of the interview
Athens, Georgia
Repository
Name of repository the interview is from
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Linda Davis, September 2, 2019
Identifier
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RBRL361AOHP-027
Creator
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Linda Davis
Kimberly Davis
Format
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audio
oral histories
Subject
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African Americans--History
African American women
Urban renewal
Segregation
School integration
Public housing
Athens Black History
Description
An account of the resource
Linda Davis was born and raised in the Brooklyn Community of Athens, Georgia. She is president of the Bethlehem Cemetery Society and has been honored by The Athens-Clarke Heritage Foundation. In this interview, Davis details her experience growing up in Athens and places that stood out in the community, such as the Jack R. Wells Housing Community and the Brooklyn Cemetery. She explains the importance of the cemetery to the black community and how she aims to preserve it.
Date
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2019-09-02
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http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
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sound
Coverage
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Athens, Georgia
OHMS
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Athens Oral History Project
Description
An account of the resource
The Athens Oral History Project was initiated in 2014 to document modern Athens history, roughly from the mid-twentieth century to the present. Interviews cover topics such as neighborhoods and communities in Athens, civil rights demonstrations, African American history, as well as personal histories of narrators.<br /><br /><span><strong>Content Warning</strong>: Some interviews in this collection contain harmful or distressing content, to include racism, racial violence, and racial slurs.</span><br /><br /><a href="http://georgiaoralhistory.libs.uga.edu/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=&range=&collection=1&type=&tags=OHMS&featured=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">View all OHMS indexed interviews in this collection here.</a>
Creator
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Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Publisher
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Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Date
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2014-ongoing
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Athens, Georgia
Identifier
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RBRL361AOHP
Subject
The topic of the resource
Georgia--History, Local
Georgia--Communities
African Americans--History
Athens Black History
Rights
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http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
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Oral histories
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Location
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Athens, Georgia
Duration
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71 minutes
Repository
Name of repository the interview is from
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
URL
<h3><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><a href="http://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL361AOHP-034/audio" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Access Interview</a></span></h3>
OHMS Object
Contains the OHMS link to the XML file within the OHMS viewer.
https://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL361AOHP-034/ohms
OHMS Object Text
Contains OHMS index and/or transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable.
5.4
2022-04-16
Interview with Julia Jones, April 16, 2022
RBRL361AOHP-034
71 minutes
RBRL361AOHP
Athens Oral History Project
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies, University of Georgia
Julia Jones
William Breeding
0
Kaltura
audio
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0
Introduction
Today is April the 16th 2022. Um- I am here with Ms. Julia Jones.
Jones is introduced and thanked for participating in the interview.
44
Early Life
I'd like us to start with you telling me a little bit about yourself.
Jones introduces herself and her family. She describes the living conditions of her childhood homes and emphasizes that the projects was a place for children to play. She details going to the baseball games her grandfather coached and his connection to the community. She also mentions the philosophy her grandmother taught her for cleaning.
Baseball;Broad Acres;Harry 'Squab' Jones;Horse riding;Magnolia Street;Mary A. Williams;Pope Street;Projects;University of Georgia;Zelma Jones
384
Childhood games
Um- you said quite a bit and I'm going to talk about pretty much everything you just said and then I know there were some other things that uh people will like to hear about your granddad
Jones remembers the many games that she and her friends played when she was growing up. She talks about the equipment they had and how some of their games would get them in trouble. She also recalls where her family members lived on Magnolia Street.
Charlie Jones;Joe Hightower;Magnolia Street;Wesley Harry Jones
565
Living on Magnolia Street
Ok continue. You were talking about Mag- uh Magnolia Street.
Jones highlights the fun that she had living on Magnolia Street. Jones also recalls the Black properties that existed on the pathway to Alps Road and their owners.
Baxter Street;Callie Wingfield;Eberhart;George Wingfield;Washington Street;Wingfield;Zelma lee Hightower Jones
821
Hot Corner
Ok tell me about Hot Corner growing up.
Jones recalls the businesses that existed on Hot Corner including her great grandfather's tailor shop. She then describes Hot Corner and emphasizes that many Black people visited. Jones explains that she lived with her cousin because all of the women in her family were attending college to become teachers.
Albany State University;Brown's Barber Shop;John Winfrey;Morton Theater;Ray Ware;Winfrey Mutual Funeral Home Inc
1087
Job opportunities for women
Now-um you mentioned that most of the women stayed home to clean the house and then they would work at other people's house.
Jones explains that there were not many job opportunities for women beyond house work. She describes that along with these jobs, the residents of Magnolia Street would sell the vegetables from their gardens. Jones also mentions that after college, she came back to Athens to work because she did not want to be a teacher.
Albany State University;Broad Street;Magnolia Street
1213
Kindergarten and elementary school
Well let's go back. We're going to start you off at kindergarten. We're going to switch gears.
Jones discusses how she enjoyed her elementary school years. She recalls her Kindergarten teacher calling her fast and telling the girls to close their legs when they wore dresses. She emphasizes not being allowed to get into trouble in elementary school because of the relationships she had with the teachers. Jones also details how she hid in another teacher's room once because she preferred her over her cousin who was her actual teacher.
Broad Acres;Donarell Green;Jimmy Hill;Magnolia Street;Ms. Wembley's kindergarten;Pope Street;Segregation;West Broad Street School
1516
Middle school
Now we're going to sixth grade, middle school.
Jones describes how she would get in trouble often for running in the halls. She recalls one instance where her friend, Max Stroud told the teacher on her for running, so she received physical punishment from both her teacher and he grandmother. She also mentions her friend group from that time.
Jean Jones;Jimmy Hill;Max Stroud;Oglethorpe School;Pope Street;Ridge Street
1883
Segregation in schools
Now let's go to high school
Jones talks about what schools Black students attended. She emphasizes that it did not bother her that the white students attended separate schools because Black parents were smart and would most likely find a way to provide education for them.
Athens High and Industrial School;Athens High School;Bussing;Segregation;West Broad Street School
2141
High school sports and education
Um- Now we're going to talk about high school.
Jones recalls how her grandmother was against her going to out of town events. She explains that her coaches had to convince her grandmother to allow her to go to these events. She also talks about how the resources at her high school were not good quality, however, the teachers were great at their jobs.
Basketball;Track and Field;Walter Allen Sr.
2450
Race relations
Now race relations then. I heard a little bit
Jones explains how she could not tell the difference between white and Black people as a child. She explains how she used to play with white children when she was not in school because of her parents' jobs. She also states that she did not call white mothers 'Missy' because she could not distinguish between the races.
Segregation;University of Georgia
2568
Harry 'Squab' Jones
Ok now I think this is a good point in- Well is there anything else about your life personally that you want to mention at this time
Jones discusses that her grandfather brought Cuban baseball players to Athens and coached the Black Crackers Baseball team. She recalls that there were many Black-owned homes at the time and that the Cuban players would stay in these. Jones also reflects on the many occupations and skills that her grandfather had and his ability to work on them at the same time.
Cannon Drive;Cannontown;Cuban Black Crackers;Glenhaven Avenue;Harold Thomas;Satchel Paige Jones;Sheats Barber & Beauty Shop;Tree That Owns Itself;Veterans of Foreign Wars
3117
Ladies Softball/ UGA Football
Now we're going to go to UGA days now
Jones states that the Recreation and Parks Department was created because there were not many recreational activities for Black people. She also discusses her involvement with the Ladies’ Softball team in Athens and explains that it was created because her grandfather discovered a segregated girl’s softball team in Calhoun. Jones reflects on going to the houses of UGA football coaches and helping her grandfather. She details the role this has had on her parenting and interests in football throughout her life.
Barbara Dooley;Calhoun;Christine Weaver-Howard;Harlem Theater;Harry 'Squab' Jones;Harry Dexter Jones;Herschel Walker;Segregation;Stegman Coliseum;Sugar Bowl;Veronica Richard;Vince Dooley;Wally Butts
3713
Baseball players and Harry 'Squab' Jones' legacy
Um - Let's see. Well I think the-uh Anything else you want to add?
Jones talks about how UGA contacted her and are looking for a baseball player named Pledge. She mentions that he is buried at Brooklyn cemetery and states that some of her family members are also buried there. She also discusses the plans for her grandfather's grave and his influence on the hedges at Sanford Stadium. Jones finally reflects back on her childhood and states that Broad Acres was the safest place in the world.
Babe Davis;Baldwin Hall;Between the hedges;Black Crackers;Broad Acres;Brooklyn Cemetery;Charlie Trippi;Clarke Middle School;Fred Smith;Harry 'Squab' Jones;Howard B. Stroud Elementary School;Linda Davis;Loran Smith;Satchel Paige;Wally Butts
Array
1
Array
oral history
No transcript.
Resources may be used under the guidelines described by the U.S. Copyright Office in Section 107, Title 17, United States Code (Fair use). Parties interested in production or commercial use of the resources should contact the Russell Library for a fee schedule.
audio
0
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Julia Jones, April 16, 2022
Subject
The topic of the resource
African Americans--History
Athens Black History
African American women
Coaches (Athletics)
Women athletes
Sports
Public housing
Segregation
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Julia Jones
William Breeding
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2022-04-16
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
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audio
oral histories
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL361AOHP-034
Description
An account of the resource
Julia Jones was born and raised in Athens, Georgia. She attended West Broad street School and Athens High and Industrial School before furthering her education at Albany State University. In this interview, Jones reflects on her childhood and upbringing in Athens. She discusses her love for sports and how that translated into a lifelong involvement with sports and the community. She also talks about the life and legacy of her grandfather Harry ‘Squab’ Jones and the impact that he has had on her.
OHMS
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Athens Oral History Project
Description
An account of the resource
The Athens Oral History Project was initiated in 2014 to document modern Athens history, roughly from the mid-twentieth century to the present. Interviews cover topics such as neighborhoods and communities in Athens, civil rights demonstrations, African American history, as well as personal histories of narrators.<br /><br /><span><strong>Content Warning</strong>: Some interviews in this collection contain harmful or distressing content, to include racism, racial violence, and racial slurs.</span><br /><br /><a href="http://georgiaoralhistory.libs.uga.edu/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=&range=&collection=1&type=&tags=OHMS&featured=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">View all OHMS indexed interviews in this collection here.</a>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2014-ongoing
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Athens, Georgia
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL361AOHP
Subject
The topic of the resource
Georgia--History, Local
Georgia--Communities
African Americans--History
Athens Black History
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Oral histories
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Location
The location of the interview
Athens, Georgia
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
97 minutes
Repository
Name of repository the interview is from
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
URL
<h3><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><a href="http://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL361AOHP-044-01/audio" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Access Interview</a></span></h3>
OHMS Object
Contains the OHMS link to the XML file within the OHMS viewer.
https://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL361AOHP-044-01/ohms
OHMS Object Text
Contains OHMS index and/or transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable.
5.4
2022-05-09
Interview with Marion Stroud, Part One, May 9, 2022
RBRL361AOHP-044-01
97 minutes
RBRL361AOHP
Athens Oral History Project
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies, University of Georgia
Marion Stroud
William Breeding
0
Kaltura
audio
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0
Introduction
Today I am here with Mr. Arnell Stroud
Stroud introduces himself. He lists his education and career throughout his life.
Allen University;Athens High and Industrial School;Athens High School;Baxter Street;Frankfurt University;Jeruel Academy;Union Baptist Institute;University of Georgia;Washington High Schhol
241
Black medical practices in Athens
What we'll do- again I'm repeating myself because I had my part off
Stroud describes being born at home by a midwife. He recalls the hospitals available and mentions that there were only two black doctors at the time.
Athens Regional Hospital;Dr. Andrew Jones;Dr. Frederick Earl McLendon;Hancock Corridor;Piedmont Athens Regional Hospital;Reese Street;Segregation;St. Mary's Hospital;Susan Medical Center
391
Union Baptist Institute
And we're taking you now to elementary school
Stroud details Union Baptist Institute's campus. He emphasizes that students from across the country attended the school and the school was funded by Baptists churches nationwide.
Baxter Street;Linnentown;Lindentown
714
High School
Now at what point did you go to high school
Stroud describes Athens High and Industrial School and lists some of the teachers that taught there. He explains that his favorite subjects in school were those related to English and highlights his love for art and music. Stroud also talks about being part of the band and chorus.
C.B. Smith;Homer T. Edwards;Mr. Holmes;Ms. Swinton;Pope Street;Reese Street;Reese Street School;Reverend Phillips
1091
Working in the army, higher education, and career
Now um from there where did you- I thought I heard you say you did something in Germany
Stroud explains that his sports experience in high school led to a full scholarship in football. He discusses attending the military during his college years and learning German in Germany. He also discusses attending college and obtaining his master's in art at the University of Georgia. Stroud highlights how his passion for art transferred to his career in art education and his involvement in a band.
Air Force;Allen University;Chambéry, France;Clarke Central;First AME Church;Frankfurt University;Hills Chapel Church;Jackson Street;Lamar Dodd;Shady Grove;University of Georgia;University of Maryland
1678
Hot corner in the 50's
Now um Let's see that's taken us from birth to now
Stroud details the history of Hot Corner and the significance of Pink Morton in providing federal jobs to Black people. He describes the business and buildings that existed and the important Black figures that contributed to Hot Corner. Stroud also talks about the insurance companies and their role in employment for Black people.
Atlanta Life Insurance;Ben Adams Dry Cleaning;Downtown Athens;Dr. Frederick Earl McLendon;Dr. Ida Hiram;Dr. William H. Harris;Guarantee Life Insurance;Mack & Payne Funeral Home;Morton Building;Morton Theater;North Carolina Mutual Life Insurance;Ray Ware;Samaritan Hall;St. John Fire Baptized Holiness Church;Wilmer jones;Winfrey Mutual Funeral Home
2350
The Bottom
Now some of the areas you mentioned about- The Bottom
Stroud describes where The Bottom was located. He describes it as a place where only Black people lived and emphasizes that is was one of the largest Black communities in Athens-Clarke County.
Downtown;First AME Church;Hart Avenue;Lumpkin Street;Segregation;Strong Street;United States Postal Service
2558
Black neighborhoods
Yes I would like to talk about all of the neighborhoods- Black neighborhoods at that time
Stroud describes Athens communities as being segregated and that many Black people owned their homes. He emphasizes that where there was a Black church and a pure Black community. He then lists areas in Athens where Black people lived.
Athens High and Industrial School;Beechwood Drive;Brooklyn Road;Callaway corner;Chase Street;Ed Bazell;First AME;First AME church;Hancock Ave;Hill First Baptist Church;Lucy Cobb Institute;Magnolia Street;Milledge Avenue;Mt. Pleasant Baptist Church;Phillips Road;Pope Street;Public housing;Pulaski Street;Reese Street;Rock Glen Road;Segregation;St. Mary’s Hospital;The Bottom;The E.D. Harris Drug Store;University of Georgia
3387
The Black Economy/ Changing racial demographics
What happened?
Stroud lists the areas in Athens that are no longer predominantly Black. He describes the "Black Economy" that existed during segregation, highlighting that Black people would do jobs that white people would not. He recalls Black people being able to afford homes and cars with their income. Stroud also describes the ways in which Black people lost their homes, businesses, and jobs.
Allenville;Barnett Shoals Road;Baxter;Broad Street;Chase Street;Dorsey Tabernacle Baptist Church;Elks Club;Gentrification;Hot Corner;House of Blue Lights;Hurley Funeral Home;Magnolia Street;Milledge Avenue;NAACP;Newtown;Park Ridge Dr;Thankful Baptist Church;Uptown;Urban Renewal
5043
The decline of the Black Economy
Now basically uh- Now redlining was there any of that involved in Blacks losing property?
Stroud states that Black people who were financially independent were able to avoid racist economic policies. He describes UGA's role in buying Black homes and communities and emphasizes that they were responsible for the destruction of the Black Economy. Stroud explains that the Black families that were not financially secure had no choice but to sell their homes and because of this, those neighborhoods became predominantly white.
Baxter Street;Linnentown;Lindentown;Parkview;Predatory lending;Prince Avenue;Public Housing;Redlining;Union Baptist Institute;Urban Renewal
5552
Advice for the next generations
Well I have one last question for you
Stroud advises people to buy and keep property. He details how people at different stages of their lives should live and emphasizes the importance of education and creating generational wealth.
oral history
No transcript.
Resources may be used under the guidelines described by the U.S. Copyright Office in Section 107, Title 17, United States Code (Fair use). Parties interested in production or commercial use of the resources should contact the Russell Library for a fee schedule.
audio
0
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Marion Stroud, Part 1, May 9, 2022
Subject
The topic of the resource
Athens Black History
African Americans--History
Musicians
African American musicians
Art and music
Bands (Music)
African American business enterprises
Public housing
Segregation
Urban renewal
United States--Veterans
African American veterans
United States. Air Force--Airmen
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Marion Stroud
William Breeding
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2022-05-09
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
audio
oral histories
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL361AOHP-044-01
Description
An account of the resource
Marion Stroud was born and raised in Athens, Georgia. He attended Union Baptist Institute and Athens High and Industrial School before receiving a football scholarship to Allen University. While in college, Stroud served in the U.S. Air Force in Germany and studied German at Frankfurt University. He finally received his Master's in Arts at the University of Georgia and continued his passion for Art through his career and his band. In this interview, Stroud discusses the history of the Athens Black Economy. He also recalls the Black communities that once thrived in Athens and gives explanations for their demise.
OHMS
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Athens Oral History Project
Description
An account of the resource
The Athens Oral History Project was initiated in 2014 to document modern Athens history, roughly from the mid-twentieth century to the present. Interviews cover topics such as neighborhoods and communities in Athens, civil rights demonstrations, African American history, as well as personal histories of narrators.<br /><br /><span><strong>Content Warning</strong>: Some interviews in this collection contain harmful or distressing content, to include racism, racial violence, and racial slurs.</span><br /><br /><a href="http://georgiaoralhistory.libs.uga.edu/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=&range=&collection=1&type=&tags=OHMS&featured=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">View all OHMS indexed interviews in this collection here.</a>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2014-ongoing
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Athens, Georgia
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL361AOHP
Subject
The topic of the resource
Georgia--History, Local
Georgia--Communities
African Americans--History
Athens Black History
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Oral histories
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Location
The location of the interview
Athens, Georgia
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
39 minutes
Repository
Name of repository the interview is from
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
URL
<h3><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><a href="http://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL361AOHP-056/audio" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Access Interview</a></span></h3>
OHMS Object
Contains the OHMS link to the XML file within the OHMS viewer.
https://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL361AOHP-056/ohms
OHMS Object Text
Contains OHMS index and/or transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable.
5.4
2022-06-21
Interview with Charles Hardy, June 21, 2022
RBRL361AOHP-056
39 minutes
RBRL361AOHP
Athens Oral History Project
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies, University of Georgia
Charles Hardy
William Breeding
0
Kaltura
audio
<iframe id="kaltura_player" src="https://cdnapisec.kaltura.com/p/1727411/sp/172741100/embedIframeJs/uiconf_id/26879422/partner_id/1727411?iframeembed=true&playerId=kaltura_player&entry_id=1_xtdxn20s&flashvars[streamerType]=auto&flashvars[localizationCode]=en&flashvars[leadWithHTML5]=true&flashvars[sideBarContainer.plugin]=true&flashvars[sideBarContainer.position]=left&flashvars[sideBarContainer.clickToClose]=true&flashvars[chapters.plugin]=true&flashvars[chapters.layout]=vertical&flashvars[chapters.thumbnailRotator]=false&flashvars[streamSelector.plugin]=true&flashvars[EmbedPlayer.SpinnerTarget]=videoHolder&flashvars[dualScreen.plugin]=true&flashvars[hotspots.plugin]=1&flashvars[Kaltura.addCrossoriginToIframe]=true&&wid=1_w2h3y4so" width="640" height="360" allowfullscreen webkitallowfullscreen mozAllowFullScreen allow="autoplay *; fullscreen *; encrypted-media *" sandbox="allow-downloads allow-forms allow-same-origin allow-scripts allow-top-navigation allow-pointer-lock allow-popups allow-modals allow-orientation-lock allow-popups-to-escape-sandbox allow-presentation allow-top-navigation-by-user-activation" frameborder="0" title="Charles Hardy, Athens Oral History Project"></iframe>
0
Introduction
One of the things- and I know the answer to some of it- what makes you, you?
Hardy attributes his mother's last request to build the community as his main inspiration for his work. He mentions the bond that he had with his mother and how he wants the entire community to grow together.
Athens Alliance Inc
184
Athens Alliance Inc
Well in fact tell me about the journey
Hardy states that at the start of Athens Alliance, people only knew of the work that he was doing for the community. He explains that prior to the organization's growth, it was only him and that he often paid out of pocket to support his community. Hardy emphasizes how much he loves seeing people volunteer, and shares that the volunteers now come from diverse locations to assist Athens Alliance.
Athens Dodge Chrysler Jeep Ram
349
Community outreach and homelessness in Athens
So tell me about the support that you're getting from local organizations.
Hardy explains how he wanted to gather elected officials to call attention to the homeless situation in Athens. He details the homelessness he has seen in Athens throughout his life and emphasizes the significance of hands-on action to fix these community issues. He further reinstates how he prefers actively helping the community and does not like attending meetings that bring about no change.
Lay park;Martin Luther King Street;Water Street
701
Growth and new opportunities
So have you had other communities ask you- or other- yeah, areas in Georgia and out of Georgia come help set that up?
Hardy explains why he is currently contemplating an offer to work in Atlanta, emphasizing that he cares more about helping people than the money involved. He discusses how many people, including himself, are impressed by the growth of Athens Alliance. Hardy also shares his vision on expanding the organization's work, and mentions that he is in negotiation to allow more people to stay in the encampment.
North Athens School;Pilgrims Pride De-Bone
1066
Repurposing the North Athens School
What did it take to basically get from-um- to get this started?
Hardy explains that to achieve what he has so far, he had to let the public know about the homelessness problem in Athens. He talks about his vision of fixing up the former North Athens school so that he can house people, offices, and resources in one location. Hardy describes that there were many who have doubted him, but because of God and his love for people, he has been able to accomplish his goals.
1392
Accomplishments and future goals
Some of those people that were against having something for the homeless, what were some of their reasons
Hardy attributes the dissatisfaction that some had with the homeless encampment as political discourse and describes how he maintains his focus on his goals. He emphasizes that opening the North Athens School as a housing facility would completely fulfill his goal of ending homelessness. He also details the ways that people can help those experiencing homelessness and Athens Alliance.
Athens Alliance;Athens Historical Society;First Step
1964
Athens Alliance encampment
Tell me some of the safety measure that you have in place- some of the rules.
Hardy lists the rules and safety precautions that exist in his encampment. He highlights the difficulties of reentering society that many individuals who had not been housed for several years face. Hardy also reflects on the community that exists between the residents on the campus, emphasizing how much many of them have changed since they first arrived.
First Step;Hattie Lawson show;WXAG Radio station
2280
Advice to younger self
What advice would you give you?
Hardy explains that if he could give advice to his younger self, he would tell him to never give up and to do what he loves. He describes the pressure that he sometimes experiences and how he masks that when interacting with the people around him.
oral history
Resources may be used under the guidelines described by the U.S. Copyright Office in Section 107, Title 17, United States Code (Fair use). Parties interested in production or commercial use of the resources should contact the Russell Library for a fee schedule.
audio
0
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Charles Hardy, June 21, 2022
Subject
The topic of the resource
African Americans--History
Athens Black History
Community organization
Nonprofit organizations
Public housing
Homelessness
Community activists
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Charles Hardy
William Breeding
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2022-06-21
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
audio
oral histories
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL361AOHP-056
Description
An account of the resource
Charles Hardy was born and raised in Athens, Georgia. He is the current co-founder and executive director of Athens Alliance, an Athens-based organization that strives to give opportunities and provide resources for the community. In this Interview, Hardy describes his inspiration and passion for the work that he does. He details how he has devoted his life to community outreach and plays an active role in fixing the homeless situation in Athens. He also discusses the growth and accomplishments that Athens Alliance has achieved, and his future goals for the organization.
OHMS
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Athens Oral History Project
Description
An account of the resource
The Athens Oral History Project was initiated in 2014 to document modern Athens history, roughly from the mid-twentieth century to the present. Interviews cover topics such as neighborhoods and communities in Athens, civil rights demonstrations, African American history, as well as personal histories of narrators.<br /><br /><span><strong>Content Warning</strong>: Some interviews in this collection contain harmful or distressing content, to include racism, racial violence, and racial slurs.</span><br /><br /><a href="http://georgiaoralhistory.libs.uga.edu/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=&range=&collection=1&type=&tags=OHMS&featured=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">View all OHMS indexed interviews in this collection here.</a>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2014-ongoing
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Athens, Georgia
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL361AOHP
Subject
The topic of the resource
Georgia--History, Local
Georgia--Communities
African Americans--History
Athens Black History
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Oral histories
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Location
The location of the interview
Athens, Georgia
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
63 minutes
Repository
Name of repository the interview is from
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
URL
<h3><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><a href="http://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL361AOHP-063/audio" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Access Interview</a></span></h3>
OHMS Object
Contains the OHMS link to the XML file within the OHMS viewer.
https://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL361AOHP-063/ohms
OHMS Object Text
Contains OHMS index and/or transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable.
5.4
2022-07-02
Interview with Earnest Elder, July 2, 2022
RBRL361AOHP-063
63 minutes
RBRL361AOHP
Athens Oral History Project
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies, University of Georgia
Earnest Elder
William Breeding
0
Kaltura
audio
<iframe id="kaltura_player" src="https://cdnapisec.kaltura.com/p/1727411/sp/172741100/embedIframeJs/uiconf_id/26879422/partner_id/1727411?iframeembed=true&playerId=kaltura_player&entry_id=1_ac05a5f5&flashvars[streamerType]=auto&flashvars[localizationCode]=en&flashvars[leadWithHTML5]=true&flashvars[sideBarContainer.plugin]=true&flashvars[sideBarContainer.position]=left&flashvars[sideBarContainer.clickToClose]=true&flashvars[chapters.plugin]=true&flashvars[chapters.layout]=vertical&flashvars[chapters.thumbnailRotator]=false&flashvars[streamSelector.plugin]=true&flashvars[EmbedPlayer.SpinnerTarget]=videoHolder&flashvars[dualScreen.plugin]=true&flashvars[hotspots.plugin]=1&flashvars[Kaltura.addCrossoriginToIframe]=true&&wid=1_b2w2inem" width="640" height="360" allowfullscreen webkitallowfullscreen mozAllowFullScreen allow="autoplay *; fullscreen *; encrypted-media *" sandbox="allow-downloads allow-forms allow-same-origin allow-scripts allow-top-navigation allow-pointer-lock allow-popups allow-modals allow-orientation-lock allow-popups-to-escape-sandbox allow-presentation allow-top-navigation-by-user-activation" frameborder="0" title="Earnest Elder, Athens Oral History Project"></iframe>
0
Introduction
I was born and raised in Clarke County Athens, Georgia
Elder describes his childhood and talks about his parents and the murder of his father. He details the significance that his grandparents had on his childhood. Elder lists the schools that he attended and talks about his involvement in sports throughout his life.
Broad Acres;Chase Street Elementary;Chase street Elementary;Clarke Central High School;Earnest Elder Sr.;Lyndon Avenue;Maribel Elder;Morgan County;New York Theological Seminary;Rock Springs;The Boulevard;University of Syracuse;Watkinsville
355
Childhood mentors
Now who were some of your mentors at the time?
Elder lists the coaches that were mentors to him throughout his childhood. He talks about how these coaches held him accountable for their education and taught them to be studious. Elder also mentions attending Breeding's class and being impressed by one of the activities they did in class.
Aaron Heard;Billy Wade;East Athens Dolphins;Pete Fair;Whitehead
625
The Community and Youth Development Organization of Athens
And I learned that if you make mistakes in life, you get up, dust your shoulders off, and you pick up the pieces and move on
Elder talks about how his mentors influenced him to give back to his community. He explains how his desire to address the issues affecting youth in Athens led him to create The Community and Youth Development Organization of Athens. Elder reflects on reaching out to Black leaders within the community and the process of finding facilities for his and other organizations.
Aaron Heard;Antonio Derricotte;Asia Thomas;Bonnie Lane;Boys and Girls Club;Broad Acres;Cedar Shoals High School;Chess and Community;Clarke Central High School;Clarke Franklin;Donarell Green;Dr. Swade Huff;Dunta Robinson Foundation;Ebenezer Baptist Church West;James Scott;Jefferey Mack;Linda Davis;Mentoring Young Men;Nellie B;North Avenue;Parkview;Rock Springs;Shane Sims;Sparrow’s Nest;Steve Jones;The Community and Youth Development Organization of Athens;Tony Sancez;United Kingdom Outreach;Valdon Daniels;Willie Green;Xerona Thomas
1250
Accommodation for parents
Give me an example or examples of some of the needs the parents may have.
Elder talks about how he works with parents to meet their needs. He emphasizes the needs that specifically effect the African American community. Elder describes how his experiences in public housing helps him better connect with children and their parents.
Aaron Heard Park;Broad Acres;Lay Park;Pete Fair;Rock Sprink
1464
The changing attitude of children
So tell me some of the good memories that you had.
Elder recalls the respect that his generation had for their elders, and explains how that is no longer the case with children today. He explains this shift as a lack of guidance from parents and the youth having children. Elder talks about creating a basketball league with all of the elementary schools to address the issues with the youth today. He mentions that the children will also learn character development and have to maintain their education.
Broad Acres;Jack R. Wells Housing Community;LaKeisha Gantt;Pauldoe;Rock Springs
2028
Working with the youth
Is there another area in life that helped form that vision now?
Elder reflects on his passion for giving back to the youth. He talks about wanting to assist students throughout the entirety of their childhoods. Elder explains that through the program, he plans on weeding out bad behavior in the current and future youth. He also emphasizes the significance of building relationships with the students and parents.
H.T. Edwards Teaching & Learning Center;Oconee County;Pete Fair;Rutland Academy
2342
Working with the school district
Are the teachers, the principals, are they on board with this idea?
Elder states that there are currently principals and other members of the school district who are interested in creating the league. He details what would occur if some of the principals chose not to work with his organization. Elder emphasizes the significance of working to meet the needs and wants of the children. He also stresses that he will continue with his vision despite issues that may arise.
Gaines Elementary School;Jennifer Westlake;Lawrence Harris;Linda Davis;Rodney Robinson;Xerona Thomas
2728
Operating as an umbrella organization
Have you or anyone thought of -ok- let's have this organization named "X" and all, for certain events, everybody falls under "X" umbrella?
Elder talks about wanting to work collectively with other organizations to help the youth. He explains that doing so would accomplish more and mentions the significance this would also have within the Black community. Elder also describes the political nature of working with the youth and raising funds for programs.
Aaron Heard Park;Chess and Community;Dunta Robinson Foundation;United Kingdom Outreach
3156
Addressing community issues
Is there anything that I haven't covered that you think will be important about knowing you, your thoughts, your philosophies, or anything going on that you would want to be recorded?
Elder talks about the violence within the community and asks Breeding what can be done to fix the community. Breeding explains that community members must properly express their needs to their representatives to address issues within the community. He reflects on an organization leader's trip to the King Center, highlighting the charisma the leader had and the necessity of individuals like him.
NAACP
3634
Closing remarks/ Advice to younger self
A twelve year old you today. They want know your advice to get them to where you are now, what would you tell them?
Elder thanks Breeding for the interview. He states that he would advise his younger self to read and emphasizes the significance of reading and learning.
oral history
Resources may be used under the guidelines described by the U.S. Copyright Office in Section 107, Title 17, United States Code (Fair use). Parties interested in production or commercial use of the resources should contact the Russell Library for a fee schedule.
audio
0
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Earnest Elder, July 2, 2022
Subject
The topic of the resource
African Americans--History
Athens Black History
Community organization
Community activists
Nonprofit organizations
Coach-athlete relationships
Mentoring in education
Public housing
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Earnest Elder
William Breeding
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2022-07-02
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
audio
oral histories
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL361AOHP-063
Description
An account of the resource
Earnest Elder was born and raised in Athens, Georgia. He is the founder and president of the Community and Youth Development Organization, an Athens-based organization that focuses on building capacity and creating programs for the youth. In this interview, Elder describes his inspiration behind working with youth. He details the role he wants to play in the lives of children and parents in Athens, and discusses his plans to work with the school district and other youth organizations to accomplish his goals. Elder also talks about the issues that he currently sees in Athens’ youth and offers the steps he would take to address them.
OHMS
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Athens Oral History Project
Description
An account of the resource
The Athens Oral History Project was initiated in 2014 to document modern Athens history, roughly from the mid-twentieth century to the present. Interviews cover topics such as neighborhoods and communities in Athens, civil rights demonstrations, African American history, as well as personal histories of narrators.<br /><br /><span><strong>Content Warning</strong>: Some interviews in this collection contain harmful or distressing content, to include racism, racial violence, and racial slurs.</span><br /><br /><a href="http://georgiaoralhistory.libs.uga.edu/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=&range=&collection=1&type=&tags=OHMS&featured=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">View all OHMS indexed interviews in this collection here.</a>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2014-ongoing
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Athens, Georgia
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL361AOHP
Subject
The topic of the resource
Georgia--History, Local
Georgia--Communities
African Americans--History
Athens Black History
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Oral histories
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Location
The location of the interview
Remote interview
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
67 minutes
Repository
Name of repository the interview is from
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
OHMS Object
Contains the OHMS link to the XML file within the OHMS viewer.
https://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL361AOHP-068/ohms
OHMS Object Text
Contains OHMS index and/or transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable.
5.4
2022-08-23
Interview with Valdon Daniels, August 23, 2022
RBRL361AOHP-068
67 minutes
RBRL361AOHP
Athens Oral History Project
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies, University of Georgia
Valdon Daniels
William Breeding
0
Kaltura
audio
<iframe id="kaltura_player" src="https://cdnapisec.kaltura.com/p/1727411/sp/172741100/embedIframeJs/uiconf_id/26879422/partner_id/1727411?iframeembed=true&playerId=kaltura_player&entry_id=1_ejpvs1et&flashvars[streamerType]=auto&flashvars[localizationCode]=en&flashvars[leadWithHTML5]=true&flashvars[sideBarContainer.plugin]=true&flashvars[sideBarContainer.position]=left&flashvars[sideBarContainer.clickToClose]=true&flashvars[chapters.plugin]=true&flashvars[chapters.layout]=vertical&flashvars[chapters.thumbnailRotator]=false&flashvars[streamSelector.plugin]=true&flashvars[EmbedPlayer.SpinnerTarget]=videoHolder&flashvars[dualScreen.plugin]=true&flashvars[hotspots.plugin]=1&flashvars[Kaltura.addCrossoriginToIframe]=true&&wid=1_4lc0kif2" width="640" height="360" allowfullscreen webkitallowfullscreen mozAllowFullScreen allow="autoplay *; fullscreen *; encrypted-media *" sandbox="allow-downloads allow-forms allow-same-origin allow-scripts allow-top-navigation allow-pointer-lock allow-popups allow-modals allow-orientation-lock allow-popups-to-escape-sandbox allow-presentation allow-top-navigation-by-user-activation" frameborder="0" title="Valdon Daniels, Athens Oral History Project"></iframe>
0
Introduction
Okay, today is August the 23rd, 2022…
Breeding reflects on his personal connection with Daniels from Breeding’s childhood education.
Athens Black history;educators
219
Childhood
I grew up in Broadacres.
Daniels shares some background information on his parents, as well as his experiences walking to school with his older siblings. He talks about the influential faculty and staff that had buildings and other schools named after them.
Athens High and Industrial;Broadacres Homes;community relations;Desiree Daniels;public housing;Reese Street;T.G. Daniels;West Broad Street Elementary School
531
Middle school / integration
And we left there, and we had eighth grade at Burney-Harris High School.
Daniels emphasizes the incredible Black teachers that were active during his youth, lamenting that many of them were displaced after integration. He says that the solution to the education problem within the Black community was not through the quality of the buildings or the books, but that it was in the quality of the educators.
Athens High and Industrial;Boy of the Year;community relations;mathematics;race relations;segregation
720
College / early career
Left Burney-Harris High School and matriculated to Paine College on a math scholarship.
Daniels recounts his time in college, where he met his wife, and returning to his mother’s hometown of Oglethorpe County, where he and his wife taught for several years. During this time, integration took place in public schools, and Daniels witnessed many Black staff lose their positions.
HBCU;mathematics;Oglethorpe County;Shirley Daniels;social studies
901
Experiences in Oglethorpe
Couple of stories I’m gonna tell about Oglethorpe and then I’ll keep moving on.
Daniels shares a conflict he had with the mailman over the location of their mailbox. He describes the difficulty he and his wife had to get her maternity leave and compares it to a white family who was adopting and easily able to acquire maternity leave. This led to a court case that impacted the social understanding of being Black within the community.
Abraham Lincoln Avenue;Barbara Shannon;Civil War;Georgia Association of Educators;landowning;race relations;slavery
1635
Middle school career / racism in school
But I moved to, uh, Clarke Central.
Daniels discusses his positions and involvement at Clarke Central and Cedar Shoals school systems. He shares that he left Clarke Central after the administration decided to promote a less experienced white woman ahead of him. He describes being hired by Burney-Harris-Lyons and being able to have agency within the administration and how he was able to assist in lowering teen pregnancy through extracurricular programs and social events. He elaborates on why there weren’t many Black kids in the gifted programs at school.
Cedar Shoals Middle School;community relations;CRCT;EOC;Hilsman Middle School;Jim Willis;race relations;teen pregnancy prevention
2526
The students in the middle
Shirley talked me into going over to Hilsman.
Daniels says that it’s the students in the middle, that do not perform exceptionally well or poorly, that are the ones left behind most often. At Hilsman, Daniels wanted to teach those he felt were being left behind. For the four years he and his wife were at Hilsman, he says that his students passed the CRCT (Criterion-Referenced Competency Tests) while other schools did not perform as well.
CRCT;Saturday Academy
2795
Community development
From there, I retired.
Daniels relates how the facility for the Boys and Girls Club on the Westside of Athens became established. He elaborates on how the mixed-income Columbia Brookside neighborhood reminds him of the atmosphere growing up in Broadacres. He also discusses how the Eastside of Athens got its own library.
Athens Housing Authority;Bethel Homes;Columbia Brookside Classic Residences;community relations;libraries;low-income communities
3352
Advice for future generations
If the Mr. Daniels today looked in the mirror...
Daniels urges the younger generations to believe in themselves and to study every day. He emphasizes that all children are gifted and that parents need to make sure that their children’s talents are appreciated and developed.
family relations;generational advice;generational relations;mathematics
3570
Middle school graduations
I said to the eighth-grade class, ‘Listen, a lot of people don’t believe in you.'
Daniels elaborates on the reasoning behind holding graduation ceremonies for his eighth-graders. Daniels and Breeding discuss the value of being educators and how that value is not always expressed financially.
cultural conditioning
oral history
Resources may be used under the guidelines described by the U.S. Copyright Office in Section 107, Title 17, United States Code (Fair use). Parties interested in production or commercial use of the resources should contact the Russell Library for a fee schedule.
audio
0
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Valdon Daniels, August 23, 2022
Subject
The topic of the resource
African Americans--History
Athens Black History
African American teachers
Education
Discrimination
Public housing
Community activists
Race relations
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Valdon Daniels
William Breeding
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2022-08-23
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
audio
oral histories
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL361AOHP-068
Description
An account of the resource
Valdon Daniels was raised in Broadacres Homes and attended West Broad Elementary School, to which he walked every day with his older siblings. Daniels loved math, and spent much of his adult career teaching mathematics in elementary school. In this interview, Daniels talks about his experiences with integration in the public school system, racism in education, and how he has assisted the community in its development through support of extracurriculars and youth programs, even after retirement.
OHMS
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Athens Oral History Project
Description
An account of the resource
The Athens Oral History Project was initiated in 2014 to document modern Athens history, roughly from the mid-twentieth century to the present. Interviews cover topics such as neighborhoods and communities in Athens, civil rights demonstrations, African American history, as well as personal histories of narrators.<br /><br /><span><strong>Content Warning</strong>: Some interviews in this collection contain harmful or distressing content, to include racism, racial violence, and racial slurs.</span><br /><br /><a href="http://georgiaoralhistory.libs.uga.edu/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=&range=&collection=1&type=&tags=OHMS&featured=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">View all OHMS indexed interviews in this collection here.</a>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2014-ongoing
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Athens, Georgia
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL361AOHP
Subject
The topic of the resource
Georgia--History, Local
Georgia--Communities
African Americans--History
Athens Black History
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Oral histories
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Location
The location of the interview
Athens, Georgia
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
69 minutes
Repository
Name of repository the interview is from
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
URL
<h3><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><a href="http://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL361AOHP-076/audio" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Access Interview </a></span></h3>
OHMS Object
Contains the OHMS link to the XML file within the OHMS viewer.
https://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL361AOHP-076/ohms
OHMS Object Text
Contains OHMS index and/or transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable.
5.4
2023-01-31
Interview with Linda Stephens, January 31, 2023
RBRL361AOHP-076
69 minutes
RBRL361AOHP
Athens Oral History Project
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies, University of Georgia
Linda Stephens
William Breeding
0
Kaltura
audio
<iframe id="kaltura_player" src="https://cdnapisec.kaltura.com/p/1727411/sp/172741100/embedIframeJs/uiconf_id/26879422/partner_id/1727411?iframeembed=true&playerId=kaltura_player&entry_id=1_kbk3kqmk&flashvars[streamerType]=auto&flashvars[localizationCode]=en&flashvars[leadWithHTML5]=true&flashvars[sideBarContainer.plugin]=true&flashvars[sideBarContainer.position]=left&flashvars[sideBarContainer.clickToClose]=true&flashvars[chapters.plugin]=true&flashvars[chapters.layout]=vertical&flashvars[chapters.thumbnailRotator]=false&flashvars[streamSelector.plugin]=true&flashvars[EmbedPlayer.SpinnerTarget]=videoHolder&flashvars[dualScreen.plugin]=true&flashvars[hotspots.plugin]=1&flashvars[Kaltura.addCrossoriginToIframe]=true&&wid=1_3ew8wpvw" width="640" height="360" allowfullscreen webkitallowfullscreen mozAllowFullScreen allow="autoplay *; fullscreen *; encrypted-media *" sandbox="allow-downloads allow-forms allow-same-origin allow-scripts allow-top-navigation allow-pointer-lock allow-popups allow-modals allow-orientation-lock allow-popups-to-escape-sandbox allow-presentation allow-top-navigation-by-user-activation" frameborder="0" title="Linda Stephens, Athens Oral History Project"></iframe>
0
Introduction
Stephens is introduces and thanked for attending the interview. She is also congratulated for receiving a community service award.
Athens Area Human Relations Council, Inc
140
Early Life
This is what I want to know. I want to know your history. I want to know what makes you tick.
Stephens introduces her family and describes her childhood. She recalls caring for her grandmother and explains how this instilled in her the desire to become a nurse and care for older people. Stephens also lists the schools that she attended.
Boom Magazine;Green County High School;Greensboro, Georgia;Hubert English School;Mary Eva Mitchell;Minnie G. Boswell Hospital;Siloam, Georgia;William Mitchell
584
Working in plants and becoming a nurse
Do you want to talk to us about-the uh- working in the plant, and was your grandmother still living then?
Stephens talks about working in plants and getting married before going to college for nursing. She describes her work at nursing facilities and a personal care home after becoming a certified nurse. Stephens explains that after her divorce, she moved into public housing with her children because there were better opportunities in Athens. She talks about getting involved in public housing as well as the many programs her children were involved in.
Athens Technical College;Marriage;Motherhood;public welfare;social services;Upward Bound Program;Westclox Factory
1157
Living in public housing
Tell me what kind of place public housing was.
Stephens talks about raising children in public housing and the community that existed there. She addresses misconceptions about public housing and describes her neighbors as well-groomed elderly women. Stephens asserts that to improve one's circumstances, they need to show interest in wanting to do better. She describes getting involved in leadership and finding opportunities through public housing.
Community leaders;Leadership;public welfare;social services
1509
Being a foster parent
At one time you were a foster parent, is that correct?
Stephens describes her time fostering children as a single parent and others to foster children as well. She explains that many of the children needed love and encouragement, and she knew that she was able to provide that for them. Stephens also talks about fostering short-term and details some of the activities and resources that she would provide for her foster children.
child welfare;Foster care system;Motherhood;Public housing;social services
1835
Leadership and helping others
Since you mentioned that I was thinking about what all have I did over the years
Stephens talks about getting involved in the community and improving her speaking to be able to help others. She explains the significance of learning about management and getting involved, and recalls when she led petitions for rebuilding new community facilities. Stephens attributes her love for family and people as the reason why she continues to work with people and the community.
Activism;advocacy;Columbia Brookside Classic Residences;Community outreach;Jack R. Wells Homes;Pauldoe;Public housing
Array
1
Array
2558
Giving back to the community
Were there ever people telling you- nah that's too big of a dream for you?
Stephens asserts that she never surrounded herself or her children with negativity and talks about putting her children in after-school activities to remain grounded. She emphasizes that having motivation is the key to giving back to the community and mentions that there are many people who lived in public housing who now work in public housing. Stephens also shares how proud she is of her children and encourages parents to allow their children to do and achieve as much as they want to.
child welfare;Community Outreach;Dekalb County;Michael Thurmond;Motherhood;parenting;Public housing;Valdon Daniel
Array
1
Array
3010
Working with Athens Land Trust
There was a responsibility that you had as an ambassador to the land- West Broad garden of Athens- which I understand was part of Athens Land Trust
Stephens talks about receiving her position as an Ambassador with Athens Land Trust and her initial doubts. She describes her work at the garden and the events that it puts on for the community. Stephens also discusses how her work there taught her about the Athens community and its needs. She explains that to do the work that she does, it takes communicating with and learning about people.
community activism;nonprofit organizations;West Broad Community Garden
3450
Working with nonprofit organizations
Your daughter is kind of - one of your daughter is kind of following your footsteps in an organization called Cultivating a Lifetime of Legacy, Inc.
Stephens recalls wanting her daughters to be set up with mentors in high school so that they had better accesses to resources for college and career readiness. She explains that because of the mentorship program and the guidance she experienced, her daughter is now able to give back to her community through an organization called Cultivating a Lifetime of Legacy, Inc. Stephens also talks about volunteering with the Economics Justice Coalition to get people registered to vote.
community activism;Community outreach;voter registration;Voting rights activism
3705
Freemasonry
The National Grand Chapter of Eastern Stars. Talk to me about- how long have you been an Eastern Star?
Stephens recalls her family's roots in Freemasonry and her father encouraging her to join the organization. She explains how, through her elders, she has learned about both the organization's work with the community and Christianity.
Religion;The National Grand Chapter of Eastern Star
3905
Advice to younger self
Did you look in the mirror any time today?
Stephens shares that if she could talk to her younger self, she would compliment her and encourage her to keep going. She also tells her younger self to keep God first and not to listen to those who tell you that you can't do something. Stephens explains that, even now, she tells herself that she is somebody and is beautiful whenever she is going through tough situations.
oral history
Resources may be used under the guidelines described by the U.S. Copyright Office in Section 107, Title 17, United States Code (Fair use). Parties interested in production or commercial use of the resources should contact the Russell Library for a fee schedule.
audio
0
http://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL361AOHP/findingaid
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Linda Stephens, January 31, 2023
Subject
The topic of the resource
African Americans--History
Athens Black History
African American women
African American families
Community activists
Community organization
Mentoring in education
Motherhood
Nonprofit organizations
Public housing
Voter registration
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Linda Stephens
William Breeding
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2023-01-31
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
audio
oral histories
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
rbrl361aohp-076
Description
An account of the resource
Linda Stephens was born and raised in Siloam, Georgia before moving to Athens. Stephens has served the Athens community through her work as a registered nurse, public housing community leadership roles, and her current position as an Ambassador for Athens Land Trust. In this interview, Stephens discusses the organizations that she has been involved with, becoming a foster parent, the public housing system, and activism.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
OHMS
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Athens Oral History Project
Description
An account of the resource
The Athens Oral History Project was initiated in 2014 to document modern Athens history, roughly from the mid-twentieth century to the present. Interviews cover topics such as neighborhoods and communities in Athens, civil rights demonstrations, African American history, as well as personal histories of narrators.<br /><br /><span><strong>Content Warning</strong>: Some interviews in this collection contain harmful or distressing content, to include racism, racial violence, and racial slurs.</span><br /><br /><a href="http://georgiaoralhistory.libs.uga.edu/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=&range=&collection=1&type=&tags=OHMS&featured=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">View all OHMS indexed interviews in this collection here.</a>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2014-ongoing
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Athens, Georgia
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL361AOHP
Subject
The topic of the resource
Georgia--History, Local
Georgia--Communities
African Americans--History
Athens Black History
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Oral histories
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Location
The location of the interview
Athens, Georgia
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
77 minutes
Repository
Name of repository the interview is from
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
URL
<h3><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><a href="http://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL361AOHP-092/audio" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Access Interview </a></span></h3>
OHMS Object
Contains the OHMS link to the XML file within the OHMS viewer.
https://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL361AOHP-092/ohms
OHMS Object Text
Contains OHMS index and/or transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable.
5.4
2023-03-21
Interview with James Fair, March 21, 2023
RBRL361AOHP-092
RBRL361AOHP
Athens Oral History Project
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies, University of Georgia
russelluga
James Fair
William Breeding
0
Kaltura
audio
<iframe id="kaltura_player" type="text/javascript" src='https://cdnapisec.kaltura.com/p/1727411/sp/172741100/embedIframeJs/uiconf_id/26879422/partner_id/1727411?iframeembed=true&playerId=kaltura_player&entry_id=1_b0bfr3uj &flashvars[streamerType]=auto&flashvars[localizationCode]=en&flashvars[leadWithHTML5]=true&flashvars[sideBarContainer.plugin]=true&flashvars[sideBarContainer.position]=left&flashvars[sideBarContainer.clickToClose]=true&flashvars[chapters.plugin]=true&flashvars[chapters.layout]=vertical&flashvars[chapters.thumbnailRotator]=false&flashvars[streamSelector.plugin]=true&flashvars[EmbedPlayer.SpinnerTarget]=videoHolder&flashvars[dualScreen.plugin]=true&flashvars[hotspots.plugin]=1&flashvars[Kaltura.addCrossoriginToIframe]=true&&wid=1_3tugz40b" width="640" allowfullscreen webkitallowfullscreen mozAllowFullScreen allow="autoplay *; fullscreen *; encrypted-media *" sandbox="allow-downloads allow-forms allow-same-origin allow-scripts allow-top-navigation allow-pointer-lock allow-popups allow-modals allow-orientation-lock allow-popups-to-escape-sandbox allow-presentation allow-top-navigation-by-user-activation" frameborder="0" title="James Fair, Athens Oral History Project"></iframe>
0
Introduction
Today is March the 1st, 2023. My name is William Breeding and I am blessed today in more ways than one.
William Breeding introduces himself and his mentor, James “Pete” Edward Fair, then thanks Fair for the interview. Fair spells his name for the record and shares his birth year, 1946.
photgraphy; mentorship; 1940s; teaching
0
210
Childhood and Education in Athens
"Tell me about growing up in Athens."
Fair describes his family and experience growing up in Athens. He emphasizes the impact his community had on him, including the push for education in his generation and his involvement in athletics in his youth. He talks about his experiences in high school and how it differs from today.
1950s; 1960s; Aaron Heard; Athens High and Industrial School; Broad Acres Public Housing; Burney-Harris High School; E.T. Roberson; H.T. Edwards; Irene Fair; James Fair; Maxie Foster; Oglethorpe County, Ga; college; competition; fellowship; football; integration; neighborhood; quality; scholarship
0
730
College and concentration of Black talent
"And that's what caused me to go off to be educated..."
Fair describes his experiences in collegiate football at Southern University, and its impact on him. He talks about balancing classes and football, and the importance of education. He briefly discusses the concentration of Black talent within HBCUs
Aaron Heard; Dwayne Harden; HBCU; Historically Black College and University; SWAC; Southern University and A&M College; Southwestern Athletic Conference; University of Georgia (UGA); Vince Dooley; business management; coaching; defense; linebacker; scholarship
0
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_University
Southern University and A&M College
1156
Start into coaching youth football in Athens
“So they had the youth football, and I went up on the hill, and some of the guys I played with was coaching…”
Fair starts to talk about cleaning up the youth football team in Athens, but briefly backtracks to talk about graduates from Southern University. He then shares the program’s successes. Fair describes helping prepare kids to fit into the high school football system.
Athens, Ga; Billy Henderson; Clarke Central High School; championships; coaching; scholarships; youth athletics
0
1451
Athens Athletics Hall of Fame
“And he said, I want you to be in charge of this program.”
Fair describes becoming President/CEO of the Athens Athletics Hall of Fame at the request of Coach Henderson. He shares how his Housing Authority job prepared him for the role. Fair then discusses the importance of the Hall of Fame.
2000s; Athens, Ga; Billy Henderson; local talent; recognition; scholarships
0
https://athenshalloffame.com/
Athens Athletic Hall of Fame
1799
Youth athletic talent and Coach Billy Wade, part 1
"Did you see a lot of talented athletes that basically didn't have other areas together?"
Fair discusses meeting Billy Wade during Wade’s time playing high school football, and getting him into college. He reflects on seeing good athletes lacking in academics, limiting their success. Fair mentions bringing an NFL player to Athens to meet some of the boys and his wife’s class.
Mel Blount; Morris Brown College; community; graduation; growth; maturity; mindset; scholarships
0
https://georgiaoralhistory.libs.uga.edu/RBRL361AOHP/RBRL361AOHP-043
Interview with Billy Wade, May 6th, 2022
2093
Working with youth
"...Sometimes you can't out there, you can't, you can't elevate their minds by just talking sometimes..."
Fair shares a story about his players asking to start up a softball team, and quickly getting beat. He talks about the differences between working with younger versus older kids.
coaching; youth athletes; youth sports
0
2224
Youth athletic talent and Coach Billy Wade, part 2
"But Billy was very positive."
Fair returns to talking about Billy Wade and his influence on the community. He discusses Wade’s methods and ability to get students recognized. Fair then reflects on several talented athletes he’s seen over the years.
Athens Athletic Hall of Fame; Charlie Dean; Clarke Central High School; Dwayne Harden; Percy Eberheart; University of Georgia (UGA); basketball; coaching; female athletes; scholarships
0
2636
College experience and cooperation
“Were you a little homesick? You were happy to get away? Or a little bit of both?”
Fair returns to talking about his experience attending college. He emphasizes the importance of his choice and the impact it had on him. He discusses the hard work he put into college and all he gained.
Aaron Heard; Bayou Classic; Grambling State; HBCU; Human Jukebox; Southern University and A&M College; University of Georgia; Vince Dooley; college football; cooperation; discrimination; football; homesick; marching band
0
2970
The importance of new experiences
"Well see, I really didn't want to go to Georgia but I was also thinking about my parents having to pay."
Breeding talks about his college experiences, and then he and Fair discuss the cultural value of Historically Black Colleges and Universities along with the importance of new experiences for youth. Fair shares the story of his son’s decision of which college to attend.
HBCU; Human Jukebox; Jameson Fair; Southern University and A&M College, Clark Atlanta University; college football; marching bands
0
3380
Opportunities and privilege
"Well looking back on it, are there things you would have done differently?"
Breeding and Fair return to talking about exposure and the need for young adults to leave their community to see new things. Fair specifically reflects on his college experience and how he was exposed to new people and opportunities he never would have had in Athens or in Atlanta.
Athens, Ga; Clark Atlanta University; HBCU; Southern University and A&M College; community; environment; networking; representation; social class
0
3627
Coaching youth football
"With you, um, saying that, there's one thing that brings back a memory..."
Fair discusses coaching and how difficult it was to teach the kids strategy and positioning.
East Athens Dolphins; coverage; football; teaching; youth football
0
4004
Friendship with Aaron Heard
“When you heard of Pete Fair, Aaron Heard was somewhere to be around.”
Fair talks about growing up alongside former NFL player Aaron Heard and their close friendship throughout their lives, including during their time at Southern University.
Aaron Heard; Broad Acres Housing; East Athens Community Center; National Football League; Southern University and A&M College; childhood; defensive line; football; offensive line; wide receiver
0
https://www.onlineathens.com/obituaries/p0190489
Aaron Heard's Obituary
4164
Marriage and Children
“Ok then, tell me a little bit about your family. How long have you been married?”
Fair names his wife (married in 1972) and his son. He then goes on to describe the impact Breeding’s father had on him and then in general the importance of community.
Jameson Fair; Linda Fair; church; community; involvement; public housing
0
4442
Advice and closing
“Is there anything I haven't mentioned….”
Fair gives his advice for the younger generations, before Breeding gives his personal thanks to Fair for allowing the interview
God; church; goal; hindsight; religion; representation
0
oral history
Resources may be used under the guidelines described by the U.S. Copyright Office in Section 107, Title 17, United States Code (Fair use). Parties interested in production or commercial use of the resources should contact the Russell Library for a fee schedule.
audio
0
https://sol07.sewanee.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=/render.php?cachefile=RBRL361AOHP-092.xml
RBRL361AOHP-092.xml
http://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL361AOHP/findingaid
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with James Fair, March 21, 2023
Subject
The topic of the resource
African Americans--History
Athens Black History
African American athletes
Sports
Coaches (Athletics)
Education
Public housing
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
James Fair
William Breeding
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2023-03-21
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
audio
oral histories
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
rbrl361aohp-092
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Description
An account of the resource
James Fair was born in 1946 and grew up in Broad Acres Public Housing in Athens. After graduating with a business degree from Southern University, Fair worked in the Housing Authority, but was well known for coaching youth football and becoming President/CEO of the Athens Athletic Hall of Fame. In this interview, James Fair talks about the value of Historically Black Colleges and Universities (HBCUs) and the experiences he gained. He highlights the importance of supporting the youth and helping them to experience new things.
OHMS
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Athens Oral History Project
Description
An account of the resource
The Athens Oral History Project was initiated in 2014 to document modern Athens history, roughly from the mid-twentieth century to the present. Interviews cover topics such as neighborhoods and communities in Athens, civil rights demonstrations, African American history, as well as personal histories of narrators.<br /><br /><span><strong>Content Warning</strong>: Some interviews in this collection contain harmful or distressing content, to include racism, racial violence, and racial slurs.</span><br /><br /><a href="http://georgiaoralhistory.libs.uga.edu/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=&range=&collection=1&type=&tags=OHMS&featured=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">View all OHMS indexed interviews in this collection here.</a>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2014-ongoing
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Athens, Georgia
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL361AOHP
Subject
The topic of the resource
Georgia--History, Local
Georgia--Communities
African Americans--History
Athens Black History
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Oral histories
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Location
The location of the interview
Athens, Georgia
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
120 minutes
Repository
Name of repository the interview is from
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
URL
<h3><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><a href="http://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL361AOHP-107/audio" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Access Interview </a></span></h3>
OHMS Object
Contains the OHMS link to the XML file within the OHMS viewer.
https://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL361AOHP-107/ohms
OHMS Object Text
Contains OHMS index and/or transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable.
5.4
2023-06-07
Interview with Danny Davenport, June 7, 2023
RBRL361AOHP-107
RBRL361AOHP
Athens Oral History Project
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies, University of Georgia
russelluga
Danny Davenport
William Breeding
0
Kaltura
audio
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0
Birth and Family
I'd like you to tell me a little bit about your parents, grandparents, as far as you can remember...
Davenport talks about his grandparents and parents, and the story of their meeting. He then talks about his early life before his memory, explaining places he lived.
1960's; Annie Davenport; Morgan County, Georgia; Monticello, Georgia; Nancy Anne Davenport; Israel Davenport; Richard E. Williams; Athens, Georgia; A.G. Williams; Odessa Williams; Rocksprings; Broad Acres; Jack R. Wells; Pauldoe
0
400
Community Members / Youth in Pauldoe
My first real memories, I'mma be honest with you, probably are around when I was in school...
Davenport mentions many of the community members who made the Pauldoe/Jack R. Wells community in Athens such a nurturing place for children. He also describes his experiences in daycare centers at the Magnolia Center and in Pauldoe.
Mount Pleasant Baptist Church; Willie Green; Corene Green; Tommy Barnett; Chuck Bush; Charles Campbell; Fred Smith Sr.; 1970's; Community; Ed Turner; Ms. Barrett; Ms. Parks; Ms. Noel; Ms. McLane; Ms. Shaw; Barbara Sims; Clarke Central High School; Randy Shields; Michelle Shields; Jack R. Wells Community Center
0
950
Oglethorpe Elementary School
When I went to school at Oglethorpe Elementary, boy I was ready!
Davenport shares his experiences at Oglethorpe Elementary School. He talks about what his teachers were like, discipline, and the racial composition of the school, emphasizing that he was the only Black student in the Gifted Program.
1st Grade; 2nd Grade; Ms. Strickland; Ms. Hurley; Discipline; Paddle; Gifted Program; Clarke County School District; Confidence; Black Educators; Teachers; Youth; Ms. Banks; Athens Childhood Development Program
0
1214
Discipline in Childhood
For whatever reason it was Mr. Burton, um, he fought for me.
Davenport retells a story about Gillespie Burton standing up for him in the wake of discipline he dealt with following a fight. The story emphasizes the importance of principle, and displays some of the different approaches to determining what was worthy of discipline in his early life.
Gillespie Burton; Heritage; Grandparents; Parents; School Patrol; Dr. Estelle Farmer; Character; Nonviolence; Integration; 1970’s; Self Defense; Daycare; Oglethorpe Elementary School; Six Flags; Athens Childhood Development Program; John Ward; 5th Grade; Motherhood
0
1825
Moving to Middle School
Started going to Lyons Middle School...
Davenport talks about moving from Pauldoe to Mineral Springs and starting at Lyons Middle School in the 6th grade. He shares the names of many of his classmates, describing things they've achieved, emphasizing that those who have moved out of Athens have been incredibly successful.
Pauldoe; Jack R. Wells; Champion Family; Athens, Georgia; University of Georgia; Football; Clarke Central High School; Barnett Family; Mineral Springs; 1970's; Lyons Middle School; Westside; Howard B. Stroud; Administrative Class; Beta Club
0
2436
Howard Stroud / Lyons Middle School
...and everybody in power in the Board of Education was headed to prison except Howard Stroud, so I've known him as a man of character.
Following a short anecdote about the strong character of Howard Stroud, Davenport details some of his experiences at Lyons Middle School. In particular, he reflects on his time in the band there, remembering many of his bandmates and experiences as a percussionist.
Howard Stroud; Clarke County School District; Board of Education; Middle School Band; Johnny Sims; Larry McClure; Percussion; Drums; Rudiments; Cedar Shoals High School; Historically Black Colleges and Universities; Discipline
0
2858
Band at Cedar Shoals High School
That summer, I was a little weary of even being a part of the band.
Davenport continues to speak about his experiences in band after his progression to Cedar Shoals High School, talking about friendships he formed and reflecting on how being part of a community like that was good for him as an introverted person.
Larry McClure; Anderson Family; Cedar Shoals High School; High School Band; Band Practice; Music; Community; Upward Bound; Stewart Newton; Freshman Year; Racial Composition
0
3135
Importance of Black Educators
...where I was in classes where we had a lot of academic scholars who were African American...
Davenport speaks on his struggles during his freshman year at Cedar Shoals High School as a result of being in the courses of white teachers that he had trouble finding common ground with and relating to. He then talks about the essential role of Black educators throughout his years in school, as they uplifted him and encouraged him to strive for greatness.
Racial Composition; Racial Differences; Teachers; Education; Athens, Georgia; Cedar Shoals High School; Grades; Lyons Middle School; Academics; African American Teachers; Test Anxiety; Clarke Central High School
0
3615
Upward Bound / Finishing High School
You remember I was telling you about Steve Anderson introducing me to Upward Bound in the 9th grade?
Davenport speaks about his time in the Upward Bound program throughout high school. He explains what a great opportunity it was for him as a high schooler to attend classes on campus at the University of Georgia, and talks about his father's recommendation to attend a predominately white university for networking purposes. He then explains the end of his time at Cedar Shoals High School.
Steve Anderson; HBCU; Athens, Georgia; Savannah State University; Albany State University; Atlanta, Georgia; Fort Valley State University; 1980's
0
4135
Beginnings at University of Georgia
So now I'm in Georgia, as a freshman...
Davenport talks about his experience in enrolling at the University of Georgia, detailing his start as an engineering major before his quick switch to the School of Business. He emphasizes the pride he felt in being a young Black man attending the University of Georgia along with a few of his Upward Bound classmates.
Athens, Georgia; Baltimore, Maryland; Upward Bound; Baltimore City College; Athens Technical College; Research; Factory Industry; Classmates; 1980's; Business; Dr. Anthony "Tony" J. White; Bridge Student
0
4459
Kappa Alpha Psi at University of Georgia
Now what is Kappa for those who don't know?
Davenport explains the process of joining Kappa Alpha Psi, a historically Black fraternity that his father was part of and encouraged him to join. He explains that through the fraternity he learned a lot about the university, and as a native Athenian was able to create a more positive relationship between the students of the university and the Athens community than had existed before.
Upward Bound; Social Fraternity; Greek Life; University of Georgia; Historically African American Fraternity; Community Service; Indiana University; 1970's; 1980's; Athens, Georgia; Racial Relations; Pledge
0
4773
Starting in Accounting
The first job I applied to was an Accounting Specialist II...
After graduating from the University of Georgia in the Spring of 1989, Davenport began to search for employment in the banking and finance sector. He explains the process of interviewing for jobs and talks about the importance of maintaining good credit. He then details how he landed an accounting position at Equifax in Atlanta.
Credit; Interviews; Equifax; Accounting; Banking; Finance; Atlanta, Georgia; Athens, Georgia; 1980's
0
4978
Youth Athletics in Athens
I started working with my cousin with the Clarke Youth Association...
Davenport details his experience as a member of the leadership of the Clarke Youth Association, a youth league football organization in Clarke County. He further explains much of the history of youth athletics organizations in Northeast Georgia, from groups disbanding to organizations splitting due to administrative conflicts.
Clarke Youth Association; 1980’s; Insurance; Youth League Football; Youth Athletics; Athens, Georgia; Northeast Georgia Youth Football League; Clarke Middle School; Albany State University; Weight Control; Basketball; Racism
0
5436
Developing Girls Youth Teams
I brought some kids, African American young ladies who were in the 4th and 5th grade, never had played organized basketball...
Davenport further talks about the youth athletics scene in Athens in the 1990's. He explains the development of girls basketball teams in Black communities in Athens throughout his time in the youth athletics sphere, emphasizing their role in the nurturing and raising of children. He also reflects on how the racism present in Athens at the time could be seen through the parents of children in youth athletics.
Basketball; Athens, Georgia; Youth Athletics; Parkview Community; Bishop Park; Athens Academy; Youth Education; African American Athletes; Public Housing; Parents; Basketball Camp; Racism; Lay Park Community Center; Boys and Girls Club; Pauldoe; Broad Acres; Rockspring; Athletic Draft; Little League; Nellie B Community; Jack R. Wells Community; Athens African American Communities; Neighborhoods; Corene Green
0
6033
Career at Athens Housing Authority
...and at that time I got hired at the Housing Authority in 1994...
Davenport talks about his 29 years with the Athens Housing Authority, explaining his position as a collector, and reflecting on some of his positive experiences and good moments there. He emphasizes the importance of communication, trust, and compassion for others. He also reflects on the greatness of James Fair, who brought him onto the Athens Housing Authority team.
1990's; Family; Athens, Georgia; Athens Housing Authority; Public Housing; Collections; Credit; Equifax; Atlanta, Georgia; Debt; Communication; Business; Trust; Compassion; James "Pete" Fair; Nellie B Community
0
6646
Importance of Community / Closing Remarks
Well... importance of community. I think I mentioned to you how many people played a valuable role in the development of Danny Davenport.
Davenport reflects on the importance of community and details the role it plays in the development of people. He also emphasizes the government's role in providing opportunities for members of the community and encourages people not to forget that. He lastly offers his advice to the youth, emphasizing the necessity of dreaming big and enjoying life amidst stressors and challenges.
Community; Development; Richard "Rick" Dunn; Harold Moon; Michael Thurmond; Walter Allen Jr.; Elected Officials; Opportunity; Government; Selfishness; Athens, Georgia; Family; Model Cities Program; Daycare; Leadership; Pauldoe; Courage; Athens Housing Authority; Youth; Advice; God
0
oral history
Resources may be used under the guidelines described by the U.S. Copyright Office in Section 107, Title 17, United States Code (Fair use). Parties interested in production or commercial use of the resources should contact the Russell Library for a fee schedule.
audio
0
https://wisvetsmuseum.com/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=/render.php?cachefile=RBRL361AOHP-107.xml
RBRL361AOHP-107.xml
http://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL361AOHP/findingaid
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Danny Davenport, June 6, 2023
Subject
The topic of the resource
African Americans--History
Athens Black History
Local government
Public housing
Sports
University and colleges--University of Georgia
African American athletes
Education
Community organization
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Danny Davenport
William Breeding
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2023-06-07
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
audio
oral histories
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
rbrl361aohp-107
Description
An account of the resource
Danny Ronell Davenport was born in Athens, Georgia in 1965 and was raised in the Pauldoe/Jack R. Wells Community. In this interview, he details a history of his life, from childhood to his long-standing career with the Athens Housing Authority, including his time at the University of Georgia and his role in Youth Athletics in Athens. Throughout the interview he emphasizes the importance of community and the role of Athens Black communities and neighborhoods in the nurturing and raising of children.
OHMS
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Griffin African American Oral History Project
Subject
The topic of the resource
Georgia--History, Local
African Americans--History
Georgia--Communities
Description
An account of the resource
The Griffin African American Oral History Project is a collaboration between the Griffin Branch NAACP, the Griffin Campus Library of the University of Georgia, and the Richard B. Russell Library. The seed was planted in the meetings of the Educational Prosperity Initiative which is also chaired by the president of the Griffin Branch NAACP, Jewel Walker-Harps. Collaborators on the project include: Griffin Housing Authority; Spalding County Collaborative; Fairmont Alumni Association; University of Georgia—Athens and Griffin campuses; and the Educational Prosperity Initiative, which is an affiliate of the Spalding County Collaborative and others. Interviewers on the project include: John Cruickshank, librarian at UGA-Griffin Campus Library; Jewel Walker-Harps, President of the Griffin, GA Branch of the NAACP; Art Cain, coordinator of Continuing Education for UGA-Griffin; Be-Atrice Cunningham, project manager for College of Agricultural and Environmental Science for Griffin; and Ellen Bauske, senior public service associate at the Georgia Center for Urban Agriculture in Griffin. Rich Braman was the sound engineer for this project. <br />The Griffin African American Oral History Project intends to document the experiences of people who lived in Fairmont Community in Griffin, Georgia during the civil rights era and through its transformation to the present day.<br /><br />All interviews in this collection have been indexed in OHMS.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-2018
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Oral histories
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL418GAA
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Griffin, Georgia
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
OHMS Object Text
Contains OHMS index and/or transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable.
5.4 Interview with Robert Dull, Part One, November 17, 2016 RBRL418GAA-006 RBRL418GAA Griffin African American Oral History Project Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies, University of Georgia Robert Dull Art Cain Jewel Walker-Harps 0 Kaltura audio < ; iframe id=" ; kaltura_player" ; src=" ; https://cdnapisec.kaltura.com/p/1727411/sp/172741100/embedIframeJs/uiconf_id/26879422/partner_id/1727411?iframeembed=true& ; playerId=kaltura_player& ; entry_id=1_k4q84ot0& ; flashvars[localizationCode]=en& ; amp ; flashvars[leadWithHTML5]=true& ; amp ; flashvars[sideBarContainer.plugin]=true& ; amp ; flashvars[sideBarContainer.position]=left& ; amp ; flashvars[sideBarContainer.clickToClose]=true& ; amp ; flashvars[chapters.plugin]=true& ; amp ; flashvars[chapters.layout]=vertical& ; amp ; flashvars[chapters.thumbnailRotator]=false& ; amp ; flashvars[streamSelector.plugin]=true& ; amp ; flashvars[EmbedPlayer.SpinnerTarget]=videoHolder& ; amp ; flashvars[dualScreen.plugin]=true& ; amp ; flashvars[Kaltura.addCrossoriginToIframe]=true& ; amp ; & ; wid=1_6qsmft7v" ; width=" ; 400" ; height=" ; 285" ; allowfullscreen webkitallowfullscreen mozAllowFullScreen allow=" ; autoplay * ; fullscreen * ; encrypted-media *" ; sandbox=" ; allow-forms allow-same-origin allow-scripts allow-top-navigation allow-pointer-lock allow-popups allow-modals allow-orientation-lock allow-popups-to-escape-sandbox allow-presentation allow-top-navigation-by-user-activation" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; title=" ; Kaltura Player" ; > ; < ; /iframe> ; 62 Growing up / Going into public housing I was born in Dearborn, Michigan... Dull talks about his childhood and describes the effect that his upbringing had on his life. Dull recalls the positive impact the Black Panthers had on his growing up. Dull explains the process through which he became involved in public housing administration. Dull emphasizes how public housing can create a sense of dependency across many family generations. Black Panther Movement ; Civil Rights ; low-income ; public housing ; Vietnam War 503 Griffin, Georgia housing communities Coming to Griffin, was a small housing authority... Dull recalls his first impression of the Griffin Housing Authority which consisted of Griffin, Fairmount Homes, and Meriwether Homes. Dull details the state that the Griffin Housing Authority was in when he took office as the CEO. Dull describes working at a small housing authority and talks about the weaknesses of public housing and the need for education in many low-income communities. Dull talks about how his love for Griffin has fueled his work in the public housing authority. education ; Fairmount Homes ; Griffin Housing Authority ; Meriwether Homes ; public housing 872 Tackling substandard housing I can have an impact in Griffin... Dull talks about his wish to destroy substandard housing in Griffin, Georgia. Dull explains how Griffin is extremely segregated in terms of housing demographics. Dull describes the public housing elsewhere, and the use of military force during the social uprising of the 1960's. Dull talks about the history of Griffin and how much the community has changed. Fairmount High School ; Fairmount, Georgia ; segregation 1266 The development of Meriwether Homes I wasn't sure Meriwether was in as bad of a shape... Dull talks about how the deteriorating conditions of Fairmount Homes public housing did not allow for the community to receive funding from the Department of Community Affairs, though he was able to receive funding for Meriwether Homes. Dull explains how he applied for a grant through the United States Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD). Department of Community Affairs ; Fairmount Housing Authority ; Meriwether Homes ; Rosenwald School ; United States Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD) 1721 Applying for funding So if we can promote... Dull talks about how he coined the administrative term " ; educational prosperity" ; in his appeal receive funding from the United States Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD). Dull talks about how his outreach did not receive funding despite meeting the recommendations of HUD. Dull proposes that politics may have contributed to Griffin not receiving the funding. Fairmount, Georgia ; grants ; politics ; United States Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD) 2102 The role of the public housing authority One of the things in particular... Dull talks about how he came to develop such an involved role as administrator of the Griffin Housing Authority. Dull explains the history of public housing authorities in the US, and the importance of public housing in the development of a better community. Dull talks about some of the challenges innate to demolishing substandard housing. public housing authority ; shanty town ; substandard housing 2563 Landlords and housing development You know, we tore down 120 units... Dull explains how landlords are not providing adequate public housing in Griffin, despite charging their tenants high rent. Dull emphasizes the need for vendors to realize the potential for development around Griffin, Georgia. landlords ; substandard housing 3024 Cultural impact in public housing Well, the other thing on the table... Dull explains how the bureaucratization of public housing has led to the loss of a personal touch in public housing. Dull attributes this process to the cultural shift of Americans towards public housing. Indian reservations ; public housing 3472 Progression in the housing sector / Concluding thoughts And so, when you think of progression... Dull talks about the need for a cultural shift in peoples' perception of public housing. Dull also explains the impact that community activities can have on the literacy and graduation rates of children growing up in low-income communities. Dull and the interviewers discuss the change in public housing that has taken place in Griffin, Georgia. community ; Fairmount, Georgia ; literacy Oral History No transcript. Resources may be used under the guidelines described by the U.S. Copyright Office in Section 107, Title 17, United States Code (Fair use). Parties interested in production or commercial use of the resources should contact the Russell Library for a fee schedule. audio 0 purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL418GAA/findingaid
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
64 minutes
Repository
Name of repository the interview is from
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
OHMS Object
Contains the OHMS link to the XML file within the OHMS viewer.
s
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Robert Dull, Part One, November 17, 2016
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL418GAA-006
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Robert Dull
Art Cain
Jewel Walker-Harps
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
audio
oral histories
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-11-17
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Griffin, Georgia
Subject
The topic of the resource
Public housing
Segregation
Description
An account of the resource
Robert Dull was born in Dearborn, Michigan, though his family moved around many times along the west coast throughout his childhood. Dull worked in public housing administration for many big cities before he eventually became the CEO of the Griffin Housing Authority. In this interview, Dull talks about his childhood, his work in substandard housing, and the future of the Griffin Housing sector.
OHMS
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Griffin African American Oral History Project
Subject
The topic of the resource
Georgia--History, Local
African Americans--History
Georgia--Communities
Description
An account of the resource
The Griffin African American Oral History Project is a collaboration between the Griffin Branch NAACP, the Griffin Campus Library of the University of Georgia, and the Richard B. Russell Library. The seed was planted in the meetings of the Educational Prosperity Initiative which is also chaired by the president of the Griffin Branch NAACP, Jewel Walker-Harps. Collaborators on the project include: Griffin Housing Authority; Spalding County Collaborative; Fairmont Alumni Association; University of Georgia—Athens and Griffin campuses; and the Educational Prosperity Initiative, which is an affiliate of the Spalding County Collaborative and others. Interviewers on the project include: John Cruickshank, librarian at UGA-Griffin Campus Library; Jewel Walker-Harps, President of the Griffin, GA Branch of the NAACP; Art Cain, coordinator of Continuing Education for UGA-Griffin; Be-Atrice Cunningham, project manager for College of Agricultural and Environmental Science for Griffin; and Ellen Bauske, senior public service associate at the Georgia Center for Urban Agriculture in Griffin. Rich Braman was the sound engineer for this project. <br />The Griffin African American Oral History Project intends to document the experiences of people who lived in Fairmont Community in Griffin, Georgia during the civil rights era and through its transformation to the present day.<br /><br />All interviews in this collection have been indexed in OHMS.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-2018
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Oral histories
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL418GAA
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Griffin, Georgia
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
OHMS Object Text
Contains OHMS index and/or transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable.
5.4
Interview with Robert Dull, Part Two, February 15, 2017
RBRL418GAA-009
RBRL418GAA
Griffin African American Oral History Project
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies, University of Georgia
Robert Dull
Jewell Walker-Harps
Be-Atrice Cunningham
John Cruickshank
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Kaltura
audio
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69
Updating Meriwether Homes
Coming to Griffin through the Griffin Housing Authority...
Dull lists some of the sites possessed by the Griffin Housing Authority during the 1950's. Dull recalls his first work in the Griffin Housing Authority as assisting with the development of Meriwether Homes community. Dull explains that Meriwether Homes needed updates including increased parking spots and interior remodeling.
Fairmont High School;Fairmont Homes;Griffin Housing Authority;Griffin, Georgia;Julius Rosenwald;Meriwether Homes;Nine Oaks
470
The Fairmont Community
So you cannot tear down Fairmont Homes...
Dull recalls that the destruction of public housing during the turn of the 21st century is what led to a decrease of public housing in the American south. Dull explains that much of the previous public housing land was sold into the market without being reinstated during the Bush/Clinton era. Dull states that the Fairmont Community (a property of the Griffin Housing Authority) is protected by Georgia's State Historic Preservation Office (SHPO) for its cultural significance as a historically-segregated housing community. Dull describes his wish to renovate the spatial distribution of the Fairmont Community, as the current 1-bedroom apartments are not suitable for family living. Dull shares his frustration in the fact that SHPO has sanctioned the community for it's cultural significance without regard for the needs of the community currently living there.
Fairmont High School;Fairmont Homes;Federal Housing Authority;Griffin Housing Authority;public housing;vouchers
893
Applying for Grants
You've got a special relationship with Lewis Grain...
Dull talks about his work with Lewis Grain to apply for supported service center grant for the Fairmont Housing Community. Dull explains that the Griffin Housing Authority did not receive the grant under the specific guidelines imposed for those applying. Dull states, that despite not receiving the grant, the Fairmont Housing Community did receive an award of excellence.
Fairmont High School;Federal Housing Authority;Georgia Public Broadcasting;Griffin Housing Authority;Rome, Georgia
1269
Changes to the Fairmont Community
Now, since that all happened...
Dull talks about some of the changes made to the Fairmont community over the years through the demolition of some of the dilapidated Rosenwald public housing. Dull explains that Gordon County is starting to make renovations to the Fairmont historical district. Dull opines his belief that Fairmont, even with renovations, can embody the cultural significance of a historically segregated community.
Fairmont Community;Fairmont High School;Gordon County, Georgia
1683
Mission of the Griffin Housing Authority
A housing authority is not about...
Dull talks about the original mission of a housing authority as an entity that prevents the exploitation of poor communities through the provision of effective and safe public housing. Dull explains the responsibility that a housing authority has for the fair, and moral distribution of public housing. Dull shares how the exploitation of Griffin Housing Authority by other public housing authorities led Dull to develop the Fairmont Educational Prosperity Initiative (EPI).
Educational Prosperity Initiative (EPI);Fairmont Housing Community;Griffin Housing Authority;Housing authority;Meriwether Homes;Nine Oaks
2112
Changes in the Fairmont and Meriwether communities
But, we also issued vouchers...
Dull talks about some of the housing vouchers offered to those in the Griffin Housing Authority. Dull explains some of the changes being proposed to the Meriwether and Fairmont Housing Communities. Dull explains that the Griffin Community has been receiving multiple grants to renovate the community including the creation of advanced senior care living facilities. Dull shares his belief that the action plan is a chance for federal housing authorities to find faults in the communities under Griffin Housing Authority.
Fairmont Homes;Griffin Housing Authority;Meriwether Homes;Public Housing Authority
2569
Dilapidated Housing and the Griffin Housing Authority
Now, this is the catch-22...
Dull explains that the Griffin Housing authority is in the possession of an alarming amount of dilapidated housing, in which people are currently residing. Dull states that housing that is being lived in cannot legally be demolished, which he claims means that the Griffin Housing Authority might be subjected to investigations by the Affirmatively Furthering Fair Housing (AFFH) Act under the United States Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD).
Affirmatively Furthering Fair Housing (AFFH);Griffin Housing Authority;United States Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD)
3002
Substandard housing
With community activism and other advocacy groups...
Dull shares his belief that housing advocacy groups will target the substandard housing offered by landlords throughout the state of Georgia, as such housing violates federal regulations. Dull talks about some of the populations that are being exploited by housing providers, including Hispanic and senior populations. Dull states that his work is often portrayed negatively because he often chooses to demolish dilapidated housing as opposed to continuing the cycle of providing substandard housing.
Griffin Housing Authority;HUD;sub-standard housing;United States Department of Housing and Urban Development
3415
Segregation and public housing
There are some streets in this town that we should be ashamed of...
Dull shares his belief that government desegregation has led to concentrated poverty. Dull explains that the policies of public housing originally created through the HUD developed racial segregation in the Black and Native American population. Dull states that public housing currently reinforces these policies by concentrating groups of peoples that the government deems needs to "managed" due to low socioeconomic status.
Griffin Housing Authority;poverty;segregation;United States Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD);urban renewal
3728
The perpetuation of poverty / Renting as an economic indicator
The solution is a diverse housing program...
Dull explains that the solution to the socioeconomic segregation in the United States is to implement the mixed-income method in public housing provision. Dull states that segregating the poor community leads to stigmatization and internalized low-self esteem and further perpetuates the cycle of poverty. Dull talks about how the decline of home ownership in Griffin County, Georgia has led to complications in the distribution of housing among heirs, which affects the labor of the county, as fewer people own homes. Dull explains the use of monitoring the renting population as an economic indicator.
fair housing;Griffin, Georgia;mixed-income method;poverty;segregation
Oral History
RBRL418GAA-009_Dull __: Okay. JEWEL WALKER-HARPS: Today is February 15th, 2017. This is African American Oral History Project. We are interviewing today for part two. Bob Dull is CEO of the Griffin Housing Authority. I am Jewel Walker-Harps with the Griffin branch NAACP. Other interviewers are -- BE-ATRICE CUNNINGHAM: I am Be-Atrice Cunningham, project manager with the University of Georgia, Griffin campus. JOHN CRUICKSHANK: I’m John Cruickshank, librarian at Griffin campus. WALKER-HARPS: And now, Bob. ROBERT DULL: And I’m -- WALKER-HARPS: In continuation of your first interview, I’d like for you to connect us with your relationship with the area we call Fairmont. How did you come into possession of ownership or permission to use or whatever (inaudible) DULL: Well, coming to Griffin through the Griffin Housing Authority, there were a total of three communities. One was Meriwether Homes and then the other one was Fairmont Homes. Meriwether Homes was in the south side and Fairmont Homes was in the north side. And then, there was Nine Oaks, which was the senior community off 8th Street, near the hospital, which was the senior-only. But the two-family sites were Meriwether and Fairmont. Fairmont Homes, which was situated a little north of the old Fairmont High School campus was built in 1950, was an 80-unit family site, was part of a -- what, at that time, was built as segregated housing. Old Meriwether Homes was built as a white only community but Fairmont Homes was built as black only, which was a common occurrence in the South at that time. It was based on a predominance of the demographics of the area, since the Fairmont community was predominantly African American at that time. So, they built it to accommodate the population. At that time, also, since Fairmont High School and the vocational school that was originally built in, I believe, 1919 by Julius Rosenwald, it kind of ended up being the core of the community that grew up around it. And so, Fairmont Home was chosen as the location for the public housing as a result of that. So, my interaction with the community was, when I came into the housing authority, my original desire was to do a redevelopment of Fairmont. But because of the deterioration of the neighborhood -- was so far -- in other words, you had some of the surrounding neighborhood at such a point of distress and blight that it would not qualify under Department of Community Affairs scoring process. It would not have been able to score, what they call scoring, to qualify for any form of redevelopment funding. Meriwether Homes was the choice made, actually, before I got here. So, I just continue with that redevelopment and then looked at the Fairmont community as the long-term strategy to try and address the blight and look at other opportunities in that neighborhood to help build that scoring potential back up. And that’s how I ended up working with that community. WALKER-HARPS: Was there a different in the structure of the two communities other than being segregated? DULL: Well, no, they were both built like bunkers. When they built back in the ’50s, understand that was postwar and at that time they built -- they had a building standard that was, like I said, postwar. It was built with a barracks type construction standard. In other words, it was built with concrete, cinderblock. And it would -- it was built to last, so it’s lasted over 60-plus years. And so, the problem, though, it was built with the design standard that was typical of public housing across the United States. It was a temporary housing. So, the units themselves were built assuming a family would be in there for a short period of time. So, your bedrooms were built with a twin bed and a nightstand. They were not built with closets. They were not built with adequate parking because the assumption was if you needed subsidized housing, you didn’t have a car. And if you needed subsidized housing, you didn’t need furniture. So, many of the units, if you look at the square footage and the way the units are designed, they weren’t designed to have a lot of furniture. So, when you go upstairs and look at the units themselves, they’re very small and functionally obsolete as it relates to the size of typical market units today. So, one of the challenges you have when you look at public housing -- and this is not unique to Griffin, this is across the United States -- many public housing communities have been torn down just because it just does not accommodate the modern family. It just does not accommodate the reality of today. Today, you know, even if you are on government assistance, you cannot compete or even have a job unless you have transportation or a car. I know of a community where I used to work in Chattanooga, 600-unit apartment community, they only had 100 parking places. That just kind of shows you the stigma that was associated with public housing when they were built. The assumption was you were only there for a short time, that you’re only there to get back on your feet, and you shouldn’t have a car, you shouldn’t have enough furniture to live a normal life. And the assumption was you were going to be in and out real quick. Well, the -- also, the flaw with that assumption is that if it was that transient, why would you build a 600-unit community in a 50,000 population city? So, you know, it was -- there was a lot of contradictions in the whole process. So, it was, in my opinion, just a way of keeping an economic lid on a certain class. WALKER-HARPS: So, you cannot tear down Fairmont Homes. DULL: Well, because -- and you got to kind of blame this on overzealous demolition in -- during the Bush/Clinton era, there was a lot of demolition of public housing across the United States, just looking at Atlanta as a good example. Atlanta has torn down all of its major public housing sites. The -- and they’ve touted that they’ve replaced them with something better. The problem is the retainage for the people returning to public housing is less than 30 percent. So, the question that has not been answered is where -- what happened to the other 70 percent? The assumption is they gave them relocation vouchers and they were assimilated out into the market. Well, they have not been able to quantify whether that really happened because they have certain conditions to qualify for vouchers and then it’s at the discretion of the private market whether they’ll continue to have those vouchers. A lot of stigma goes -- that’s the other thing. There’s a lot of stigma that goes with Section 8 vouchers ’cause the assumption is that Section 8 vouchers contribute to neighborhood decline. But the problem is it’s a convenient excuse for poor housing or poor management by private landlords. But it isn’t always the case that the program is the result of poor neighborhood. It’s just that landlords are just taking advantage of a program and then throwing people out and the problem is there was no safety net for many of those people that -- who are removed from public housing back in those days. So, now, there are conditions. Now they’re saying if it was a community like Fairmont, which was built as segregated housing, is an example of a segregated housing community, the state historic preservation office basically told us when we tore down Meriwether Homes, yeah, that was white only. This is one of the few surviving black only. They’re not going to let us -- just give us carte blanche to tear it down because we decide to tear it down. It’s -- and the fact that we have a Rosenwald school within walking distance -- in many ways, the Fairmont community is a preserved, historic example of segregated housing and education. And if it’s promoted as that, then it’s a real opportunity for Griffin to really say this is a venue of what segregated housing and education was in the South. So, that’s why SHPA won’t let us do it. And they told us -- they haven’t done it officially but they have told us don’t try. WALKER-HARPS: But you do have a plan for Fairmont Homes that’s going to change it? DULL: We are going to change the units to where they’re more functional for family. There’s three bedrooms or two bedrooms, because that’s the way the modern family is based on demographics. But the buildings are going to be the exact same footprint. Their connectivity to the Rosenwald is going to remain the same. We’re not tearing down anything. I don’t think it benefits the community to look like brick barracks. Unless we put a fence around the whole thing and say look at this museum to the past, I don’t think that benefits anybody. I think since it’s going to be housing to serve that community, I think it should be the best housing in that community and that’s what we intend to do. I think right now, good, bad, or indifferent, Fairmont Homes represents the best neighborhood in that neighborhood and if you drive by it on any day, it’s the cleanest, best maintained of any housing in that neighborhood. And it’s -- that’s a sad statement because if a community’s viability is based on public housing, which is typically thought of as housing of last resort, then something’s wrong. That means there’s something wrong with the neighborhood and we’ve got to focus on building that neighborhood back up. And part of the reason I am so committed to Fairmont is because I’ve done a lot of research into what Fairmont was. And when you look at a community that, at one time, had such a deep cultural passion for the way they thought of each other -- and the way I say that is Fairmont High School was viable. They’d have rallies. The band would march all the way from Fairmont High School all the way over, under the railroad tracks to the stadium down the street from downtown and people would come out of their house and follow that band all the way there. That just, to me, was something that I wish I could’ve seen once in my life. But the people that we’ve talked to, when we were talking about revitalizing the old Fairmont High School, when you look in their eyes and you see that -- I guess they witnessed that in their life. You can see that that’s something that, if you didn’t see it, was something that they still feel very passionately about it, that that’s -- that community deserves to get some of that back. And just because some of the folks that live there passed on and their children didn’t feel that passion, they moved out, and so they didn’t care enough to stay in Griffin, it doesn’t mean -- shame on Griffin, because we didn’t have enough left in the community to keep the kids here. We got to work on getting that back, that’s all. And that’s why I made my commitment to Fairmont Homes and the Fairmont High School. And that’s why we tried to get the grant. We didn’t get the grant but we put the garden in because we want to prove that the community cares enough about it. WALKER-HARPS: You had a special, (clears throat) excuse me, a special relationship with Louis Greene. DULL: Yes. WALKER-HARPS: Could you tell us a little bit about it? DULL: Well, we had originally applied for -- it’s funny how life turns out. (laughter) But we had looked at the North Hill School for capital fund community center grant. It was -- I was a little naïve because I thought it was a nationwide grant but it was -- later on, we’ve kind of figured out what it was. But it was a grant that HUD was putting out to housing authorities to build community center supported service centers. And it was up to three million dollars. And so, we were -- we wanted to apply for it ’cause we felt Griffin needed a one stop shop for all of the programs. And so, I looked at North Hill, I talked to those folks, and they said they’d sell it to us for a million dollars and I said, no, it ain’t worth that. And so, I was driving around and I drove past the old Fairmont High and it looked pretty rough. And then, I called Louis Greene and he said, “Have I got a plan for you.” And then, he (laughter) -- and that’s why I say it’s not my idea. But then, Louis said, “Let me meet you down there” and he rolled out his vision. And then, that weekend, Georgia Public Broadcasting did the Rosenwald documentary. And from that moment forward, I was hooked because that’s when I learned about the band, that’s when I learned about -- and then, that, I was -- and they had Manley Spangler or Spangler Manley had done all these conceptual drawings, done budgets, they had done everything. That was half my grant application. So, I took that and submitted it to HUD. So, I figure, hey, God’s in charge, you know? And how can this happen in, you know, literally two days? And Louis’s passion got -- became my passion. It was unbelievable. We submitted the grant application and I forget the score. This is not a good day to remember but I remember the first round, we missed it by a point. I think it was, like, we got a -- 87, something like that, and they funded everything 88 and above. So, we asked for an exit interview and they said, “Well, you know, it was good but you need to show proof of the community” -- huh? WALKER-HARPS: Education programs? DULL: Yeah, there needed -- to show something. They just didn’t think the community was willing to participate in a community resource center. Okay, so they gave it to -- that year, they gave it to Boston, they gave it to Seattle, they gave it to these -- Chicago. They gave it to these strong Democratic cities. So, you know, I say, oh, you know, it’s not politically motivated. So, we did it again the next year. The next year, we were in the mid 90s. They funded everything in the high 80s to mid 90s the next year. We missed it by a point. This time, they said, “Yeah, you proved” -- and we had Spalding Collaborative, we had Partners for a Prosperous Griffin, we had a commitment for the community garden, but we didn’t have a strong enough Hispanic outreach listed. So, we missed it by one point. And I was so heartbroken. So, Rome got it, Rome, Georgia, and that’s when I found out Renee Glover from Atlanta had gone to Rome (laughs) to work with them through Promised Neighborhoods, which was a -- initiative that was working with Atlanta and some of the other -- that’s when I knew it was all political. So, (laughter) they -- so, we didn’t get that. But this is what happened: that whole process was not in vain because I’m a firm believer there’s no grant application effort that goes wasted because the process of going through that grant application allowed us to form EPI. It allowed us to form our relationship with UGA and fund our participation in Kids University, our mentoring program, our community garden, all of our different programs. It took a couple years but then we got the National Award of Excellence. That’s the National Award of Excellence. That’s not just the Award of Merit. That was the National Award of Excellence. That to me is validation that regardless of who judges and who has a preconceived and -- I’m sorry, HUD, that’s just the way I feel about it. But it’s just -- this community is capable of some pretty amazing stuff. You can’t underestimate what this community’s capable of is my bottom line. And so, now, since that all happened, the cafeteria was torn down, we have about a quarter acre of plowed land plus garden boxes plus the city’s -- the county has started gutting out the Rosenwald, gutting out the auditorium. They got SPLOST money dedicated. It’s not enough but, you know, Rosenwald and the Fairmont High School is not going to be demolished, bottom line. And if anything, we’re going to find the money to get it done. And so, to me, if we didn’t do this effort, that building would’ve already been gone, in my opinion. WALKER-HARPS: Now, that area belonged to the Griffin Spalding school system originally. DULL: Now, it belonged to the county. WALKER-HARPS: It belongs -- it does now. Did it originally belong to the county? DULL: Yes, they, the county -- the city or the school district had already, well, transferred it -- WALKER-HARPS: Okay. DULL: -- to the county. WALKER-HARPS: The school system transferred it to the county. DULL: Yes. WALKER-HARPS: Okay. DULL: And then, we entered into agreement with the county for one dollar. WALKER-HARPS: Okay. DULL: And then -- if we got the grant. But the county still controls it. And if we can get a grant -- I mean, we still fund the garden. The county is -- I don’t -- maybe this is the wrong word, kind of shamed into doing certain things, like the demolition, the water, things like that. WALKER-HARPS: And I understand that there was -- DULL: And they’re going to build a pavilion up there, I understand, and bathroom and -- CUNNINGHAM: Sink? DULL: -- a sink. CUNNINGHAM: (inaudible) get vegetables? WALKER-HARPS: Of course. DULL: And so, you know, if we didn’t start the process of the grant -- and Ellen will agree with me -- if we didn’t do that, we would’ve never been where we are today. And so -- and now, we’re going to read the -- plus, they’re doing new trails and new sidewalks, new everything. The whole area is being transformed into a park system that all you need is the next step that -- I’m telling you, the Fairmont Historic District to me has the potential to become as -- a venue to -- now, you may argue whether this is a positive term or a negative term but a -- example of segregated housing and segregated education. I’m now -- when I was first thinking to tear down the front part where the old Mainstay Academy was, to me the Rosenwald and the front section to the auditorium, example of progression of segregated housing. I’m glad they didn’t tear that down, ’cause they were going to. When you have the original -- what was it? Negro vocational, then you have separate but equal. WALKER-HARPS: Yes, hmm. DULL: And so, you see the progression of segregated education right there on that campus. I don’t know of any example of that in the entire state that has the progression on one campus. And to me, that is worth saving and somebody somewhere has got to recognize that that is a positive thing, especially when they’re connected the way they are, especially when you have such a beautiful building like the Rosenwald School, you know? To me, I think that is a venue that is worthy of being a destination venue. And then, when you can stand on that school and look and see an example of segregated public housing still existing -- is a plus. So, you ask me why I care about Fairmont, that’s why. WALKER-HARPS: Well, I understand that prior to the county receiving the -- not the title but permission to use it, the school system had offered -- had recognized the request from community persons, persons who perhaps were products -- DULL: Fairmont alumni. WALKER-HARPS: Yes, and offer them the deal for a dollar, that they like the potential to move it or to do anything with it. And, as a result, after nothing was done with it, they kind of saw fit to offer it to you, you and to the parks and rec, I suppose. DULL: Well, it -- I don’t know about the dynamic of that but I can say that I don’t look at one single group being -- there’s -- because there’s still some of that dynamic going on over there. But I look at the whole -- unless -- Fairmont is a unique community. There’s a lot of absentee owners, you know, a lot of owners that have left but still claim that that’s their community. It’s unique. WALKER-HARPS: However, with that being true, without the collaboration and your ability to collaborate with Louis Greene, who was -- the late Louis Greene, rather, who was director of parks and rec for Spalding County, as well as the city of Griffin and the county and the University of Georgia and (inaudible), none of what we’re saying now perhaps would have happened. You were able to galvanize, you might say, the resources that were out there and energize community members and other participants to get onboard. So, can we perhaps -- in my mind, we can give you credit for -- along with Louis Greene as being the catalyst for -- DULL: Well, it’s -- WALKER-HARPS: (inaudible) DULL: -- you know I’m not taking that. (laughter) WALKER-HARPS: No, but we do. We claim it wholeheartedly because that is a part of history. CUNNINGHAM: Exactly. WALKER-HARPS: And when my children go and read, they will know, they will recognize the contributions that were made by the housing authority because housing authority, under Bob Dull, was a whole different -- that attitude toward public housing was something that we had not seen before in Griffin. DULL: Well, I would -- you choke me up when you do that. But (laughter) my [00:28:00] opinion, a housing authority is not about managing the projects. A housing authority, if you look at the public housing law, we were mandated to care about the people that nobody cared about. Our original mission was to go into communities and represent those that were not being represented, to provide safe, decent, and affordable housing. So, when the public housing law went into effect, it wasn’t brought into effect for existing buildings. It was brought into effect to eliminate substandard shantytown -- shanty villages that were being exploited by local municipalities as a means of congregating cheap labor and exploiting that cheap labor for the benefit of -- group of people for economic gain. So, when public housing authorities were established by law in the late 1930s, it wasn’t that we had all these public housing units sitting out there somewhere, waiting to be managed by this new law. They didn’t exist. But they were designed to go into municipalities and say, “No more! (laughs) You’re not going to get it anymore.” So, you know, when I look at our mission, our mission was more of -- to be a moral conscience for our community. And so, you know, at the end of the day, and I’ve told this to the city council, and that’s why, you know, I got to say something. When you say, “Can a community change?” -- Griffin changes because I’ve told them they have to. It’s not that Bob Dull did. I showed them the law that says they have to change. They have to accept moral responsibility for conditions that they allowed to continue. At the end of the day, if you allow substandard blight or housing conditions to continue, then they’re as guilty as the bad landlords that allow it to go. It’s called implied consent. And that’s the whole reason why they have fair housing. If you’re treating me different, then you’re treating some -- I’m not asking for you to give them something more than anybody else but you can’t treat neighborhoods any different than you treat this neighborhood. And Griffin, because of its size, unfortunately has clear cut lines where that’s the case. And it’s not the fault of the people that are currently here. And Fairmont is a good example. Griffin has been exploited, not by the people who are here now but over the generations by an industry that washed its hands of this community in a matter of a year or two. And people were loyal to that industry undyingly. They gave their all, generationally, to an industry that didn’t care about them when they left ’cause they cashed out and said, “I’ll see you later” and left nothing but people waiting for them to -- it’s almost like you’d leave a -- but it’s probably a bad analogy, so you can scratch this from the transcript, but it’s like you leave a pet on the side of the road. And the pet sits on the side of the road, waiting for the owner to come back and pick it up. And that’s the way I look at some folks here in Griffin. It’s -- it was wrong. They invested nothing back for the profits they took. Nothing back. And so, now you got communities, they’re trying to figure out what the hell happened. And so, I went to Fairmont and I’ve said, “I’m not going to -- I came to this town, this is my hometown now.” And I’ll treat it like a hometown till they run me out. Till they run me out. WALKER-HARPS: And that attitude helped to produce EPI. DULL: Yeah. WALKER-HARPS: The Educational Prosperity Initiative. DULL: And it’s selfish on my part because, at the end of the day, I could spend the same amount of money I’m spending on EPI on marketing. (laughs) I can run ads to live in public housing. I could spend hundreds of thousands of dollars over the next 10 years. But I’d rather spend it on education to keep the kids from growing up needing public housing and then spending it on figuring out how I’m going to market to them in 10 years. So, when you talk about the term educational prosperity, a mill can’t take away educational prosperity. A mill will not take away choices. And that’s why I think if we can focus what resources I can until they take those resources away on programs like UGA and like our garden and like all of those different programs to make that next generation think of alternative choices, then that’s money well spent. They can come back later and judge that that’s not money I should’ve spent on that. I beg to differ because, to me, there are public housing authorities that all they want to do is just manage the people coming in and coming out. That -- well, they can do that at a mini-warehouse but that’s not the way we’re going to do it in Griffin. And you know what? I’ve got more money in this community than any housing authority our size in the entire state of Georgia in three years. Any housing authority. So, something works. Or God’s in control. WALKER-HARPS: Yeah, right. DULL: I prefer to say God. WALKER-HARPS: (inaudible) (laughter) prior to us beginning, you were telling us about some of the grants, some of the monies that you were -- you know, been able to get and what you’ve been able to do as a result. And all we need do is look at the plan or look at the plans for what is about to happen with Nine Oaks, Meriwether Homes, and all -- eventually Fairmont. Would you briefly tell us a little bit about those projects, please? DULL: Well, last week or two weeks ago, we had the retreat with the city and the county at Blackshear. They had their -- WALKER-HARPS: Yeah, Archway. DULL: -- retreat. Archway. And since 2016, when we finished Meriwether, phase one. That was $16 million. Prior to that, we did spend 600,000 for the demolition. But we also issued vouchers to the folks that were there. Y’all assisted us with that. Of the voucher folks, we haven’t gotten any feedback on anybody being displaced unless they chose to leave the program, which, I’ve got to say, we can at least tell you where they are. Atlanta can’t say that. So, that’s a plus right there. So, get that bad press behind. We haven’t gotten any complaints on the people we put out on Section 8, too, I want you to know that. Nobody’s complained. Nobody in this town has said we have destroyed a neighborhood because of our voucher program. So, that’s another positive. The phase one of 16 million. Phase two is under construction right now, The Iris, that’s 15 million. We got funding. Phase three, which will be on the golf course, that’s another 14 million. We already got approved and funded for that. We’ll start construction this -- that’ll be for senior units. So, we got two senior buildings that are going up, starting construction, and/or completed this year. We just got approval two weeks ago to get -- we received the 2.5 million commitment from Kresge Foundation and DCA to proceed with getting the tax credits for Fairmont and Nine Oaks. That’s now $17 million to do both those properties. That brings the total for transformation of public housing in Griffin to 62, $63 million. That does not count the money the city is putting in or the additional grants because we got $1.5 million from Federal Home Loan Bank. So, yeah, that on top. That’s grant. That’s money that was just added because we applied for it and the -- based on the merits of the deal. Last night, the city council also just approved us to provide bonds and money for building a new senior services resident building on the corner of Highway 92 and Callan Road, which is a progressive senior nursing facility. Goes from limited assisted care all the way to Alzheimer’s. That’ll be $62 million. So, in -- from 2016 to 2018, the housing authority, my board, will have brought $128 million into the little town of Griffin. That is more than Columbus, that is more than Atlanta got, that is more than Marietta got. That’s more than Rick Parker up in Athens has gotten recently. I’m proud of this town. Now, the only reason that happened is because of this town. And it’s not Bob Dull or the Griffin Housing Authority. It’s because you build momentum based on energy. To me, you know, you could almost build a case for the book, The Secret. You build attraction based on positive things. And, you know, I think when you say can we transform what Art’s saying, you just got to do it. And when you were saying why did we do what we did -- WALKER-HARPS: Yeah. DULL: -- we just got -- we can plan -- it’s, like, when we went to Archway, we had a 40-foot wall full of tear sheets with plans to do this, this, and this. That, to me -- thank God I didn’t stay there for that. I just did my presentation and left ’cause I’m not -- I mean, you can sit and plan until the cows come home. (laughter) But unless you got some -- but unless you’re going to do it, it’s all a waste of time. And, you know, it was, like, that was old Griffin. I told them we’re bringing $128 million. You guys talk about it. And that’s been -- how much time talking about it after I left? Because, I mean, you can’t -- you got to transform talk into action. And -- WALKER-HARPS: Now, there are -- DULL: -- does that answer your question? WALKER-HARPS: Yes, it does. There are a couple of surveys currently or in the near future going on in Griffin. One has to do with the substandard housing -- DULL: Housing conditions. WALKER-HARPS: -- yes, and the other is the one that we were discussing at a collaborative meeting. And, well, we’re going to get a picture of what ctually exists. Would you tell us a little bit about the survey that has to do with -- DULL: The housing authority and -- well, part of it has to do -- further affirming fair housing. By November of this year, any jurisdictional authority in the nation that receives any sort of form of HUD or transportation funding has to complete a further affirming fair housing action plan. In essence, you’ve got to say have you identified the conditions and needs of your community to qualify for future federal funding. And what that means is communities that have to recognize their faults. The problem that I have with it -- I’m a believer of it but then I also think it’s a catch-22 because they’re not going to tell you whether you’re in compliance or not. They’re just going to say, “We’ll put this on a shelf.” So, in other words, depending on legal systems, they can come back later and say, “Oh, you got a problem here.” So, it’s a big spider web. CUNNINGHAM: And you documented it for ’em, too, yes. DULL: And you’ve done all of the legal -- CUNNINGHAM: Yes, yeah. DULL: -- research for ’em. CUNNINGHAM: Yeah, yeah. DULL: So -- but we’re in that catch-22. So, what we’re figuring is we partnered with the county, the city, and us because the leader on it is the housing authority. And in every -- even the cities now have to embrace housing authorities, whereas before, they always kept ’em -- you manage the projects. We’re ahead of the curve in this town. This is where I think Griffin is way ahead of the curve because our relationship with the city and now, quickly, the county is that we are doing an assessment of every dwelling structure in this city from substandard to good. They’re doing -- they are going to be doing a survey over the next month, month-and-a-half assessing over 6,000 structures and ranking it. And it will be on a database that will give us an accurate assessment of how many substandard houses, how many marginal houses, how many are on the bubble, how many are good? And it will separate it by neighborhoods. Now, this is the catch-22: be careful what you ask for because at the end of the day -- well, they did a study in 2008 where they identified there were 1,400 substandard, dilapidated houses. We have torn down, housing authority included, which -- we had never torn down anything before I got here or ever were part of it. Now I’ve torn down about 140 structures that were absolutely substandard, particularly the ones up on Lincoln Road, which were outside Atkinson Elementary. Horrible. I got the last ones torn down. But there were 1,400 so if -- let’s say we tore down 400, that means there were thousands substandard, still. But the bad news was, in that same survey in 2008, there were 1,800 that were considered almost substandard. So, we know we tore down 400. There 1,000 and there well over 1,000 more that were on the bubble and we’ve driven around town and we haven’t seen anybody doing a lot of work on houses. This survey is going to blow the lid off where the conditions of housing are in town. And the city and the county have started to -- that’s why you see a lot of issues in the paper about stepping up the code, code enforcement, because what’s going to come out of this is we’re going to identify that we got real issue with the substandard that’s beyond just the 1,400. It’s probably going to be well over 2,500 substandard housing and the city’s policy, which has been tested in court, which is legal is they cannot condemn a house that’s occupied, even though it should be condemned. Now, we can argue the moral issue of that but it’s still uninhabitable. That is going to be challenged with the new further affirming fair housing, you see what I mean? So, my role as a housing authority is I’m going to have to put an action plan on the city and the county to say, “How are you going to address this?” And now, you see the housing authority shifting into an enforcement role. CUNNINGHAM: Which will change the perception completely of the housing authority. DULL: We will -- CUNNINGHAM: Yeah. DULL: What people don’t know but the city knows now, housing authority can subpoena, hold hearings, fine, prosecute anybody. We’re the only entity in the state that can inspect City Hall. Not that I’d want to do that or you won’t see Bob Dull around here anymore. (laughter) I’d like to keep my job. (laughter) WALKER-HARPS: And that’s a part of the new fair housing -- DULL: Further affirming fair housing. And it’s coming. Now, they’re going to go after the big cities. They’re going after cities like Atlanta. CUNNINGHAM: Right. DULL: They’re going to go after the huge cities. It’ll be many years before they go down to the small towns unless somebody complains. But trust me, that’s the next big civil rights movement is going to be fair housing because there’s just too many examples of disparate treatment based on neighborhood demographics. And that’s going to point it out -- when you see these little green dots show up on a map, you’re going to see dividing lines. And the dividing lines are going to clearly delineate Fairmont, Meriwether, Milltowne, and Maple. And it’s going to be clear, so -- but I’ve already said this and they know it. So, I may be here, maybe not. Now is -- do I expect to change -- WALKER-HARPS: Yes. DULL: -- from the fair housing rules -- WALKER-HARPS: Right, as a result, yes. DULL: -- oh, there’s no choice. There will have to be an action plan written and followed. And just like the comprehensive plans that the city and the county has to prepare and that -- the five-year plans that I have to submit, it’s just -- it’s written in the law. So, we will have to prepare it, submit it, and follow it. So, yeah, there will be changes. Now, the degree in which the plan, the intensity of the plan, since there will be no review and approval, that may be just a matter of saying, yeah, we will do outreach, yeah, we will talk. But the details of the plan could be subjective, whether it’s, you know, simple or detailed. Now, what I believe Griffin has stepped forward with is their housing improvement plan, better code enforcement, a targeted code enforcement and tax enforcement and demolition -- is more than a lot of towns. In fact, many communities are coming to Griffin to look at that program and emulate it. But is it going to be sufficient to take care of the degree of substandard that we have? You know, it took 20, 30 years to get to this point, you know? It’s not going to be fixed in five years. But what I see that could be of benefit is there was a -- attempt in the past by Georgia legislators to put more regulations on landlords, slumlords, who were taking advantage of the -- those type of housing conditions and they tried to go through a permitting process, which was a method of targeting substandard housing and was shot down by the legislature. It was not approved and it’s because the landlord lobby’s pretty extensive. And I see that when there are federal violations associated with substandard, I see that coming back up on the table. So, I think, with community activism and other advocacy groups forcing that issue, I would say that that’s probably going to come back on the agenda and would probably be a good call to action to start holding landlords who have substandard housing to be held more accountable than they have in the past, you know? I know of a community where they don’t even put front doors until you rent the apartment. And if you pay your rent on time, they may put carpet in for you, you know? Those are housing conditions that exist to this day. When I first came to Griffin, there were housing units that I bought and demolished that didn’t even have bathtub-- sorry, that didn’t’ even have bathrooms. And they were taking chamber pots out to the railroad tracks and dumping -- in Griffin. In the city limits. Those units are gone but that existed in Griffin six years ago. WALKER-HARPS: Six years ago? DULL: Six years ago. So, just know that, you know, we may be in the 20th century but there were still landlords in this community four months ago -- they’ve since left. We have people that are buying houses in Griffin. We have people selling houses to people in Griffin. A couple moved from Texas to a house that had no toilets, no hot water tank, and they went and the people sold them a house for cash and went down to the city to get power on and they hotwired the hot water tank but they didn’t have power. And they were -- and they had a hole in the floor and they were going right into the sub-- the basement so that -- and these are responsible people selling these houses. So, if you don’t think that there aren’t conditions that should be addressed in this town, there are serious conditions. There was a -- elderly couple with a daughter that was 56 years old with Down syndrome that didn’t have toilets. So, I moved them to one of our public housing sites. And they were paying 400. They paid first month’s rent, a security deposit of $400, and the landlord wouldn’t even return it and said that, “I will get a toilet in for ’em if they’d just be patient.” I relocated ’em to public housing and tried to get something to be done but nothing could be done because our enforcement rules don’t allow them to go inside and cite that landlord because it’s occupied. There are some changes that need to be made. WALKER-HARPS: Now, you’re saying -- CUNNINGHAM: So, what will it take to (inaudible) WALKER-HARPS: -- that that’s challenged, that law is being challenged now? DULL: Yes. I’m challenging it. WALKER-HARPS: Okay. That’s important. That’s -- DULL: Yeah. WALKER-HARPS: -- very, very, very important. DULL: And that’s just in the last 90 days. The ones that bought the house from out of town, they were so afraid -- the landlord had them so afraid they left town because they though they did something wrong. The landlord got them so afraid and paranoid they left town. And the problem is a new group that’s being exploited is Hispanics. So, that’s why I’m rushing to get this inventory done, ’cause soon as we identify these substandard houses, they’re red-tagging ’em. That means if somebody ever moves out, they’re never getting power back on in those houses again. So, we’ll know. WALKER-HARPS: Well, I’d like for you to walk with us, the NAACP. I know privacy laws affect what you can expose or what you cannot but -- DULL: Yeah, just because -- and people are -- this is one thing, people are hiding behind HIPAA. WALKER-HARPS: Yes. DULL: And HIPAA is good but HIPAA can also be a screen of cover that allows exploitation. And, you know, it’s -- and I’m telling you, it’s very frustrating for me because I want to house ’em. And that’s part of the reason why I’m building more senior housing now than family units. My next two buildings are senior because the ones that are being exploited the most are seniors. And I’ve got to -- I told the city if I build senior housing, I want them to condemn houses and tear ’em down, I don’t care what the landlord says, and I’ll get ’em relocated into senior housing. So, I’m setting aside 20 percent of my new housing for the city to tear down houses and get the seniors out of those housing -- CUNNINGHAM: Beatrice. DULL: You’re mad. CUNNINGHAM: What will you -- yes, I’m a little (laughter) taken by this but what do you think it would take to get this enforced? (laughter) I mean, do you need more people assisting you or -- DULL: What do you mean, assisting me? I will tell you this: there are people in this city that are 100 percent behind what I’m saying. But those people that are behind me would be retaliated against. WALKER-HARPS: I’m already being retaliated, so I’m not behind you. DULL: You know what I’m talking about (inaudible) WALKER-HARPS: Yes. But I’m willing -- DULL: Because there is a method of retaliation that is not direct. It’s indirect. And, you know, I’m building up my office to be more of a warrior office. I’m in the process, so -- but it’s just me. And, you know, I sound like I’m showboating here but that’s not what I’m doing. I’m telling you facts. CUNNINGHAM: Right. DULL: And I’m telling you and I’ve made this clear to attorneys and everything -- is people say why am I tearing down the houses that people -- because the way to get out of paying back taxes and stuff like that is they can just donate the house to me rather than the city goes after ’em. So, they’ll donate to me and I’ll tear it down. And then, people are saying, “Why don’t you just rent it?” I’m not going to be a slumlord. CUNNINGHAM: Right. DULL: And people are saying, wow, I’ve torn down -- so, there are streets where it’s empty because I’m not going to participate in this cycle of slum conditions where I’ve got people living like -- you know, you do -- take a photograph of some of our streets in black and white and it’s like you’re looking at a 1930s photo in Appalachia, you know? It’s this -- there are some streets in this town that we should be ashamed of. But here’s the scary part: every town in Georgia has a street like that. That’s the really -- you know, I can’t just pick on Griffin. I was driving around towns on my way down to Cordele. There are still bad -- it’s just, like, this state is just -- that’s shocking. CRUICKSHANK: Looking back over the long term or many decades, I was wondering how desegregation has impacted housing? How has it affected African Americans and the kind -- and the housing situation? (laughs) DULL: Well, in many ways, it has not benefited them in the sense that, you know, if you -- it’s concentrated poverty. It has concentrated race. ’Cause in many ways, desegregation has resulted in what started out as segregated housing where you had white only and black only communities. The whites got the advantage of vouchers and vouchered out and were assimilated into the surrounding communities where public housing ended up being high concentrations of poverty in one neighborhood. Now, one of the problems I’ve had with the whole public and Indian housing program is that’s the thing that a lot of people don’t understand. If you look at the HUD side, it says public and Indian housing. The policies of public housing is about concentration. The policy of public housing is under the same policy program as Indian housing, which is reservation, tribal housing. So, when we look at the concept of public housing, it’s about taking a group of people, in this particular case race, and concentrating them in a controlled environment. The same thing as tribals. So, when we look at the policy, the 24 CFR federal regulation, it’s about how do you control and manage a concentration of people based on the boundaries that they’re concentrated in? The same rules apply to tribal and Indian lands. How do you manage a group or the boundaries of people where they’re concentrated? That’s where public housing has failed. The issue was not about how they were going to leave because even in the Indian and tribal lands, the plan wasn’t that they were leaving. It was how you managed to keep them there and under control. So, when you look at public housing, I think the failure was it wasn’t about how they were going to leave. It’s how you managed them in that boundary. So, deconcentration or desegregation did not benefit the African American race. It doesn’t benefit the Hispanic race. It doesn’t benefit any group of people that it concentrated in such a small, limited area such as public housing. And I think as a program, it should be eliminated. It’s obsolete. It was based on 1890s, 1900 policies as a way of the federal government to manage a group of people that it didn’t know how to deal with. And so, to me, I think it’s a failure of policy, it’s a failure of a system that was not designed under the public housing law. It was just a convenient way of concentrating a group of people that they didn’t know how to deal with otherwise. If you look at the public housing law that was written in the ’30s, it talks about how to deal with substandard blight. And in the law, it said, “And could manage properties.” It didn’t say I was going to manage high concentrations of the poor in urban areas or in other areas. It just seemed to be a policy that was already established through the tribal lands. Let’s use that same policy in urban areas and everything like that. So, it evolved to be something -- I don’t know if it was the original intent but it’s failed. And there are glowing examples of examples of that, like the stigma stereotypes like Cabrini-Green in Chicago, Techwood in Atlanta, Carver Homes. Down in Miami, there is -- when you concentrate a group of people, they come up with their own methods of dealing with their circumstances, yeah. CRUICKSHANK: So, looking forward, what’s the solution? DULL: The solution is a diverse housing program, giving people choice, and to start deconcentrating poverty. The mixed income method is the only way you’re going to break the cycle. If you don’t say because you’re poor, you only live here, because that’s where all poor people live, if you don’t start assimilating people into an environment where they feel like their neighbor could be somebody that they can emulate or the neighbor can feel comfortable helping -- everybody is so concentrated on surviving that we’ve lost the ability to empathize with our neighbors. And so, now everybody’s just concentrating on survival. And that’s where desegregation has failed not only the African American race, the Hispanic race and, and believe it or not, there is a high number and a high percentage of public housing that’s low income poor white in many states across the United States. It’s not -- public housing is not about low income black families. It’s also white families. The issue is you cannot concentrate poor in a boundary community and assume that they’re going to be accepted by the community or feel good about their circumstances, that they’re going to want to move on. You know, hope deferred makes the spirit grow weary. And they just perpetuate that life cycle to their children, to their children’s children, and we sit back and wonder -- those people have done it to themselves. No, we did it to them. That’s what I feel. That answer your question? CRUICKSHANK: Yeah. CUNNINGHAM: You know, one of the things that makes this an oral history rather than just an interview is the fact that it’s going to be indexed so it will be searchable. And Harrison Laird is a graduate student who’s taken over that part of the project. Very early on, he noticed that there were classes of terms. He had terms that were geographical locations, where people grew up, where they -- and he had a lot of educational terms, where they went to school, when they went to school, what universities they went through. Then, he had what he called the civil rights terms. But he quickly realized that he had to weave in there labor rights terms, as well, because they seemed to go hand in hand. The civil rights cannot progress without the labor rights. What you’re talking about seems to suggest that the civil rights and labor rights cannot progress without the housing rights, as well. DULL: Agreed. CUNNINGHAM: What would be suitable terms for him to index? And can -- what can we say about the Griffin or about the Fairmont community in terms of housing rights? DULL: Well, I think the -- CUNNINGHAM: See, the terms are tricky there. DULL: Well, it’s still an issue of fair housing. It’s still an issue of desegregation and segregation because when you look at the housing conditions in Fairmont, it used to be predominantly home ownership. And as the home ownership percentages -- and this is the issue Griffin has -- is there’s been such a decline in home ownership. And the reason that decline happened is because the children in Griffin, as they grew up, saw no hope in Griffin. And so, they left Griffin. And then, as the folks aged in place, when Mom and Dad passed on, the kids didn’t come back and reclaim the house. So the house may have been divided up into five or six different heirs. And and then they just gave up, so the house could find maybe one of the heirs continued to rent, so the issue of housing rights ends up getting muddled and heir properties and conditions and -- CUNNINGHAM: Employment opportunities DULL: Employment opportunities. So, to say there is no connection between labor and housing; Fairmount is the example of the connection between labor and housing because neighborhood decline is directly relator to labor. So, if you look at three quarters of griffin. . It’s funny, I even heard this at Archwood, did you hear the defending for rental percent was? They tell us about fifty-six, sixty-one percent. HARPER: Yes. Dull: -- (inaudible) and I’m sitting here saying, look at them trying to meld, because you got Maplequarter with about a twenty-two to twenty-one percent home ownership, but then you got three quarters of the city seventy to eighty percent rental, which is a unhealthy rental percentage number. But they kept saying, oh it’s not that bat. But you got one-quarter of the city skewing the percentage of home ownership saying, we’re -- CUNNINGHAM: You look at the total homes, we’re bad. DULL: Yeah, we’re extremely bad. But it you divide three quarters and meld in a twenty-one percent average, it’ll take you down into the sixties. CUNNINGHAM: And then twenty-one percent is the rental average, Maple -- DULL: Maple. CUNNUNGHAM: yeah. DULL: And so, you know, I’m sitting here saying, you know, You’re not going to get anywhere if you start, you remember HARPER: Yes, if you (inaudible). DULL: -- And that was a city manager making that statement. And I was just sitting there saying, okay, we’ve got work to do here. You know, I thought I got them convinced that, but you know, at the end of the day, there’s part of us that don’t want to admit the realty. This next setting is going to scare the poo-poo out of a lot of people. Hashtag poo-poo. CUNNINGHAM: (laughs) DULL: (inaudible) CUNNINGHAM: It’s probably okay. DULL: But you know, the reality is that the economic impact has killed three neighborhoods and its measurable, and its got boundaries, and you can define it. You can put a nice suit on it, but it’s still there. And we got to realize that, so if you’re talking about fair housing, despair impact’s based on labor, employment, and just the fact that there’s no hope. So there is a connection... And that’s all I have to say Harper: So that’s all that you want -- (yawns), excuse me, tell us. (inaudible) DULL: Well, I wanted to say that I love Griffin. Griffin’s my hometown. I’ve never had a hometown. When I came to Griffin, this is my hometown. And so, you know, I wouldn’t say these passionate words if I didn’t care. CUNNINGHAM: Amen. DULL: I care about every neighborhood. Even the ones that I can get shot at in nine o’ clock at night, I still drive through them, though. So that’s why this is my hometown. Harper: Well, thank you Bob Dull, CEO of the Griffin Housing Authority. We certainly appreciate your time and your informative interview. Ladies, Gentlemen. CUNNINGHAM: Thank you. CRUICKSHANK: Thank you. DULL: I knew you were going to (inaudible). HAPER: Thank you. END OF AUDIO FILE
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audio
purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL418GAA/findingaid
Location
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Griffin, Georgia
Duration
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71 minutes
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https://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL418GAA-009/ohms
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Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
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Title
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Interview with Robert Dull, Part Two, February 15, 2017
Identifier
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RBRL418GAA-009
Creator
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Robert Dull
Jewel Walker-Harps
Be-Atrice Cunningham
John Cruickshank
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audio
oral histories
Date
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2017-02-15
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http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
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sound
Coverage
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Griffin, Georgia
Subject
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Public housing
Segregation
Discrimination
Description
An account of the resource
Robert Dull works at the Griffin Housing Authority as the Chief Executive Officer. In this interview, Robert Dull discusses his work in the Fairmont community through the Griffin Housing Authority, as well as the effect of segregation and poverty on public housing. Dull talks about challenges to the Fairmont housing authority, the purpose of a housing authority, vouchers provided through the Griffin Housing Authority, the continuation of segregation through housing, and the effect of poverty on the Fairmont Community.
OHMS
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Griffin African American Oral History Project
Subject
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Georgia--History, Local
African Americans--History
Georgia--Communities
Description
An account of the resource
The Griffin African American Oral History Project is a collaboration between the Griffin Branch NAACP, the Griffin Campus Library of the University of Georgia, and the Richard B. Russell Library. The seed was planted in the meetings of the Educational Prosperity Initiative which is also chaired by the president of the Griffin Branch NAACP, Jewel Walker-Harps. Collaborators on the project include: Griffin Housing Authority; Spalding County Collaborative; Fairmont Alumni Association; University of Georgia—Athens and Griffin campuses; and the Educational Prosperity Initiative, which is an affiliate of the Spalding County Collaborative and others. Interviewers on the project include: John Cruickshank, librarian at UGA-Griffin Campus Library; Jewel Walker-Harps, President of the Griffin, GA Branch of the NAACP; Art Cain, coordinator of Continuing Education for UGA-Griffin; Be-Atrice Cunningham, project manager for College of Agricultural and Environmental Science for Griffin; and Ellen Bauske, senior public service associate at the Georgia Center for Urban Agriculture in Griffin. Rich Braman was the sound engineer for this project. <br />The Griffin African American Oral History Project intends to document the experiences of people who lived in Fairmont Community in Griffin, Georgia during the civil rights era and through its transformation to the present day.<br /><br />All interviews in this collection have been indexed in OHMS.
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Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
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Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Date
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2015-2018
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http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
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Oral histories
Identifier
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RBRL418GAA
Coverage
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Griffin, Georgia
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
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https://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL418GAA-010/ohms
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5.4
Interview with Haskell Ward, March 22, 2017
RBRL418GAA-010
RBRL418GAA
Griffin African American Oral History Project
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies, University of Georgia
Haskell Ward
Jewell Walker-Harps, Be-Atrice Cunningham, John Cruickshank, and Ellen Bauske
oral history
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English
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Introduction / Early Life
It’s March the 22nd, 2017. We are at the University of Georgia, Griffin Campus … continuing interview session.
Ward discusses his childhood and talks about his experience going to school in Griffin, Georgia. He talks about several of the people who had a major impact on his life, and says that he was very successful in school and finished 3rd in his class despite failing the first and second grades.
A&E;A&E Network;A.C. Epps;Arts and Entertainment;Corrine Prothro;Ella Phillips;Ellen Charaker;Harold McNeely;In Search of The Dream;Louise's Cafeteria;Reverend Shropshire;Rotary Club of Griffin;Rotary International
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5W1FyXzy04
In the early 1990s AMI produced a documentary series on the history of African-Americans called "In Search of the Dream," for the Arts & Entertainment Network. This six-hour program chronicled the life of host Haskell Ward amidst the events and history of African-Americans from the 1940s to the 1980s. This insightful and informative series was nominated for a Cable Ace Award (now part of the Emmys).
1136
Segregation in Griffin / Horace Tate
So anyway, I could go on like that but what was life like? Griffin was two different communities.
Ward discusses his experience attending segregated schools, saying that most African-American children did not want to go to school with white children. He also talks about a man named Horace Tate, who encouraged him to read.
Brown v. Board;Huckleberry Finn;integration;segregation
1580
Housing in Griffin
This picture of me, when I was here, this was in the projects. We left Solomon Street and moved into the projects.
Ward talks about how his family were some of the first people to move into the public housing community now called Fairmont Homes. This was the first time he had had electricity, air conditioning, and running water with an indoor bathroom.
affordable housing;public housing;Solomon Street
1852
Values in Griffin
By that time I had begun to realize that I was a little bit more serious in school than other kids.
Ward talks about the values that the Griffin community instilled in him. He further describes the paradox of the South being racially segregated by law but at the same time many close relationships existed between blacks and whites such as the one between his Mother and Harold McNeely.
athletics;nannys;Oakland Cemetery;positive reinforcement;sports
2705
Tenure in the State Department under the Carter Administration
There’s an interesting thing … I was in the State Department … Jimmy Carter was president. I was living in Lagos, Nigeria
In this segment Ward discusses his tenure as Africa Adviser to Secretary of State Cyrus Vance in the Carter Administration. Ward was the first African-American to serve in the Secretary’s office. He talks about the issues he dealt with such as the independence movements in Zimbabwe, Angola, and Mozambique.
Angola;Angolan Civil War;Angolan War of Independence;Cyrus Vance;Ford Foundation;freedom fighters;Jimmy Carter;Lagos;Nigeria;Secretary of State;State Department;United States Department of State
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angolan_War_of_Independence
The Angolan War of Independence (1961–1974) began as an uprising against forced cotton cultivation, and it became a multi-faction struggle for the control of Portugal's overseas province of Angola among three nationalist movements and a separatist movement. The war ended when a leftist military coup in Lisbon in April 1974 overthrew Portugal's Estado Novo regime, and the new regime immediately stopped all military action in the African colonies, declaring its intention to grant them independenc
2952
Civil Rights Activism / Social life in Griffin at the VFW
And so … The same thing here … we decided to Act.
Ward discusses his civil rights activism at Clark College (now Clark Atlanta University). He cites the Montgomery Bus Boycott and the death of Emmit Till as galvanizing events for him and for the African-American community in general. He also talks about the Veterans of Foreign Wars (VFW) run by Phillip Head in Griffin.
Aretha Franklin;B.B. King;Clark College;Clark-Atlanta University;Diana Washington;Emmit Till;Etta James;James Brown;Montgomery Bus Boycott;Sam Cooke;Veterans of Foreign Wars;VFW
3600
Economic conditions faced by African-Americans in Griffin
So you mentioned the Heads … so who were some of the other prominent black business owners around that time?
Ward discusses the economic conditions faced by African Americans in Griffin before, during and after the civil rights movement. He says that as a student he was encouraged to leave the south if he wanted to be successful. He also discusses his academic achievements, including starting a debate team at Clarke College.
Atlanta Life Insurance;Auburn Avenue;Emory;Frank Touchstone;Harvard;Igbo;Louis Ward;Nigeria;Ron Touchstone;sewers;Slaton Avenue;Stan Lovett;Yoruba
5275
Visits to Africa
When I went to Africa in 1962 it completely transformed my direction in life.
Ward details his many trips to Africa and the impact his first trip to Kenya had on his life. After visiting Kenya, he went to Ethiopia where he taught for the Peace Corps. When he returned to the United States he attended UCLA for graduate school.
John F. Kennedy;Peace Corps;Selective Service;The Kennedy Airlift;Tom Mboya
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Kennedy_Airlift
The Kennedy Airlift occurred in 1959 and 1960 and saw hundreds of east Africans get scholarships to study in the US. It was arranged by Tom Mboya and Senator John F. Kennedy
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Return to griffin
We can see that with you now in your life. You've gone all over the world....
Ward discusses returning to Griffin to become a judge and realizing that there are still very significant barriers between black and whites, although racial communication has improved over the years. He also talks about how he feels like African Americans, including himself, need to dress a certain way in order to be perceived as professionals.
income inequality;justice system;New York City;racism
6778
Important influences on his life
What do you consider your most valuable achievement?
Ward talks about some of the people who have taught him important lessons throughout his life, including C. Eric Lincoln at Clark College and his wife, Leah.
Benjamin Mays;James Hermann Robinson;Martin Luther King;Morehouse College;Operation Crossroads Africa
7100
African American professionals in Griffin / Politics in Griffin
Mrs. Jewell has he covered the period he wanted to be covered?
Ward discusses some of the professional jobs that African American people had in Griffin during the Civil Rights Era. He talks about Dr. Blaton, Dr. Atkinson (a dentist) and some of the first black police officers. He also discusses the political atmosphere in Griffin and the reorganization of the municipal government of Griffin-Spalding County.
BJ Jackson;city limits;Marvin Barrow;Mobile, Alamaba;NAACP;Reese Colbert;single member districts
RBRL418GAA-010 Ward JEWELL WALKER-HARPS: March 22, 19 -- 2017. We are at the University of Georgia Griffin Campus with our continuing interview session. We will be interviewing today Mr. Haskell Ward, a Griffinite who is going to tell our -- take us through his life and through the major events which have had some impact on African American history. Today we have sitting at the table -- BE-ATRICE CUNNINGHAM: Be-Atrice Cunningham. JOHN CRUICKSHANK: John Cruickshank. ELLEN BAUSKE: And Ellen Bauske. RICHIE BRAMAN: And Richie Braman. WALKER-HARPS: So now, Haskell, we will allow you to begin to tell us about your early life and whatever else you deem to be important that you would like to share with us, as we interject some questions along the way. Haskell WARD: Okay. [00:01:00] So thank you, Jewell, and those who are also here at the table. It’s an honor for me to be here, and to speak a bit about growing up in Griffin, and the Griffin in which I grew up. Related to that, I have made a copy of a DVD of the Griffin series in the “In Search of the Dream” that I recorded off of the television; that in 1990, we did a six-part series on A&E called “In Search of the Dream,” and Griffin was the first hour of that series, and by all accounts, the most popular hour of that series. It was nominated for best documentary of the year in 1990, and that also is related to how I came back to [00:02:00] Griffin, as well. But this is a copy of it from the television, including the ads in it, that I think is worthwhile being a part of your collection here. WALKER-HARPS: And we have your permission to -- WARD: Yes, yes. I don’t have the copyright authority, but you can have that. It’s recorded in 1990. WALKER-HARPS: Okay. WARD: I was born in Griffin in 1940, March 13, 1940, so last week, I celebrated my 77th birthday. On 429 East Solomon Street. Four twenty-nine East Solomon Street was where the old Louise’s used to be, across the street from where the Louise’s is today. I will show you a picture of the house that was from a product of my [00:03:00] memory, because there were no photographs of it, but it was a product of my memory, and it was drawn by -- what’s her name -- Joyce Perdue. This is the house, and it’s from my memory, from right in Solomon Street, where the children’s care -- the childcare center is. All of those houses were torn down. But I was born there in that house in 1940, by Miss (Carrie Causey?), Rodney, his great-grandmother. Rodney McCord’s great-grandmother was the midwife. And most of the African American babies who were born in Griffin were not born in the hospital. They were born by midwives, and Miss Carrie Causey, who lived up on Taylor Street, [00:04:00] was the one who did most of the deliveries. That was 1940. I lived in a house that was my grandmother’s house, and there were two of us in there with -- my mother had two children, me and my sister (Yvonne?), two years older than me. My mother and father divorced a year after we were born -- I was born. He went to Cleveland, where he stayed the rest of his life, and she also eventually went to Cleveland, but we lived in that house until about 1950 with my grandmother, and then we moved up a few houses up Solomon Street, across the way from (Richard Duke’s?) and Miss (Vera?) Duke’s. Clifford Phillips [00:05:00] and his family, the Phillips across the way. Next door immediately to us was one of the black funeral homes. Sometimes a funeral home, sometimes not. And most of the people who were around there -- (George Reed?) lived around, down the corner. My fourth grade teacher lived two doors down, Miss Prothro, and many of my friends for the rest of high school were right on that little corridor. We went to -- when I was in school, to the Broad Street School. We walked under the bridge, which has been covered, under the railroad. And the Broad Street School burned down when I was in about the second or -- maybe third grade. And we built the -- we moved to a new school, Fairmont -- not -- Moore’s Elementary School, in, [00:06:00] I’d say, ’47, ’48. Forty-eight or somewhere around there, Moore’s was built. I was in Griffin a couple of years ago, visiting, and I was -- I stopped in to say hello to Billy Reeves. And when I -- Billy and I were in Rotary. I was the first African American in Rotary in Griffin, and Billy was a very good friend of mine, and I would often say hello to him. We were very good, close friends. And when I finished talking with Billy, I said, “You know, I think I’ll go over to the Board of Education and see Curtis, Curtis Jones.” And it was interesting. When I went to see him, they were doing a recording for a promotional piece on the Griffin-Spalding County School System. And Curtis said, “Well, here, why don’t you introduce [00:07:00] one -- interview one of our outstanding graduates, Haskell Ward?” And I talked with them for about a half an hour. And at the end of it, I said to Curtis, “Look, I’d be interested in seeing my school records.” And he said, “Well, I don’t know. That’s a long time ago,” but he said, “I’ll look.” Before I got back to -- by the Atlanta Motor Speedway, he called and said, “We found your records.” CUNNINGHAM: Oh, wow. WARD: These are the records (inaudible) that he sent me. And it was a startling discovery. (laughter) This is about two years ago. CUNNINGHAM: Yes. I was thinking, this could be scary. WARD: This is a startling discovery. I looked at my record, and I discovered something that, in -- and as I’m 75 years old, 74, 75 years old, I found out something that I never knew in that [00:08:00] 75 years. The first was that I failed the first grade. You go through and look at my records, and you’ll see all this, and the best grades were D’s (down there?) except for health, I got C’s. And so I was retained. And you go through. So I repeated the first grade. You go to the second grade, and you find the same thing. All of the D’s and F’s, and I didn’t even -- this -- the only grades I got beyond that were in health. And I was retained in the second grade. So when I graduated from high school, I often wondered why it was that I was 19 and everybody else was 17 or 18, and I never knew. I never knew until that day that I had repeated. Now, the end of that story really is, when I graduated from high school, if you look at my -- I was third. I didn’t get to be [00:09:00] number one or two, but I was third in my class. I was president of the junior and senior class, president of the district-wide 4-H club. I saw something about 4-H club in today’s paper. I won the state oratorical contest, third place, best all-around student, assistant band director, outstanding (bass?), best all-around, best student in math, best student in English, best student in social studies, most likely to succeed. And I thought, what an amazing story. What an amazing story. Here, a kid comes out of that circumstance, illiterate mother, illiterate father, illiterate grandmother, and coming out of that circumstance. Now, that fits into a kind of conservative mantra about the -- one could make a very strong conservative case that is (argued?) about the greatness that is [00:10:00] the opportunities in the country. But it really, in my mind, had a very big interpretation that I placed on it. When I left the third grade, I became the student of Miss Corine Prothro. Corine Prothro had a reputation of being a very tough lady, a very tough teacher, and she lived two doors down. I worked for the woman that she lived with, Miss Ella Phillips. Miss Ella Phillips lived on the corner of Fourth and Solomon Street -- on Third and Solomon Street. And both of them had a major role -- played a major role in my life. My grandmother was a maid, worked for Miss (inaudible). My mother was a maid later, and worked for (Harold McNeely?) And [00:11:00] my grandmother would say to me, when she was away at work, to sit on the porch until she came home. And I would sit on the porch, because I know that if I didn’t, Miss Prothro knew that that was what I was supposed to be doing. And so she would walk -- she walked from school over to her home, and not only was she my teacher, but she knew what the instructions were. There’s (an?) important questions about that, because I wondered in my later years in life why I sat on the porch and other kids didn’t, and the impact of Miss Prothro and Miss Ella Phillips on my life during that period. By the time I finished the sixth grade -- my sixth grade teacher was Mr. A. C. Epps. [00:12:00] Mr. Epps was my minister. And an important thing happened to me. If you look at my record from the first and second grades, I was clearly on the path to being a total failure in school. But if you look around the fifth and sixth grade, there began to be signs of excelling. And I trace those to the impact of my -- Mr. Reverend Epps was the minister at Heck Chapel. When I was in the fifth grade, Miss Ella Phillips took me to Heck Chapel and made me join, and I underscore made me, join the church there. Heck Chapel became a very important part [00:13:00] of my life, because Reverend Epps was not only my minister, but he was my sixth grade teacher. And not only was he my sixth grade teacher, but the other members were the head brothers and other teachers in Griffin. So Raymond was there, Phillip was there, Otis was there, that I grew up with under their tutelage there, so I knew them. They knew me as a member of the church. When Reverend Epps left the church, Reverend Shropshire became the minister, and most of my later years in life, I was with Reverend Shropshire. Reverend Shropshire and his sons and daughters were contemporaries, and Reverend Shropshire played a very important part both in my life and in the life of Griffin as a leader. Those -- WALKER-HARPS: Excuse me. Is he the Reverend Shropshire who [00:14:00] had to make a choice between teacher and the NAACP? WARD: Yeah, yeah. And his wife was also a teacher. WALKER-HARPS: Yes, (Hester?). WARD: Yeah. Now, those descriptions of my growing up really was the way all of the kids grew up. We were all very poor. There were -- those who were not poor, they were the sons or the daughters of the teachers or the ministers, but there weren’t very many, particularly because many of the ministers were not college educated. They were ministers, but they hadn’t been formally educated beyond being called to the ministry. So they weren’t very -- most people on Solomon Street were like me. Most grew up like me. Most were in the same economic circumstance. [00:15:00] Now, a couple of guys behind me, (Glen and Frankie Lee?) behind me, lived in the house. They had a credit relationship with the (Morrison Rowell?) grocery store right under the bridge where you go up. And so they would, on days when they went there, give me a nickel, and I could get a big (wheel of?) cracker and bologna meat. In the third grade, I had a teacher who would give -- who would ask the kids who were in school to go and get her lunch, and she would give you an nickel if you did. And I was always excited about doing that. Anyway. BAUSKE: Why were you on the porch? Why did your mother tell you to sit out on the porch? WARD: So that I wouldn’t go out anywhere. BAUSKE: Okay. WARD: So that I wouldn’t go running around the street, and getting in trouble. Just, “You sit here on the porch, and then when I come home, then you come in. But don’t go running around the neighborhood [00:16:00] and doing anything.” And it was reinforced by Miss -- also down the street from me, who also was my fifth grade teacher, was Miss -- what’s the name, whose husband was the Atlanta Life Insurance -- Miss McDowell, Miss Prudence McDowell. She had two daughters, and they were very close to me. Miss McDowell had a practice that if you went to school each year, and it was -- she did it on a monthly and a yearly basis -- if you went to school without being late or absent, she would give a party for you. And I had never had anybody who would ever give a party [00:17:00] for me, so my aspiration was to have a party. And she -- that was a very, very big deal, that she had a party for me when -- because I otherwise wouldn’t have had a party. And so -- but it had the effect of keeping you in school. Those were important elements. There was an important element of Reverend Epps’s influence on my life. When I had gotten to the sixth grade, I was the captain of the school safety patrol. And the captain of the school safety patrol was different from the regular school safety patrols, in that you didn’t have to stand on one spot. You went around and saw whether the other ones was standing in the spots where they were to be. And then one day, one of the [00:18:00] guys was late, and I asked him why he was late, and he didn’t tell, and I slapped him. And as a result of that, Reverend Epps demoted me from a captain to a private. That incident had an enormous impact on me and my attitude toward power and responsibility. It had a -- all through the rest of my life, his having done that, I could cite for any number of things as not -- how not to abuse power and responsibility. It was a huge, huge thing, because being a school safety patrol was a real, real, real big deal. I mean, it wasn’t -- I think I had a picture. I think you saw the picture, Jewell, online, of me with the school safety patrols. WALKER-HARPS: Yes. WARD: So anyway, I could go on like that. But [00:19:00] what was life like? Life was -- Griffin was two different communities. Not just two different communities, but Griffin was a community in which we lived on our side of town, even from -- different from the south side of -- we stayed away. Blacks on Solomon Street didn’t hang out with blacks on Boyd Row. We didn’t have gangs, but we didn’t -- we were very, very different, from the interactions. They had elementary schools over there, Cora Nimmons, and we had our school over here. They didn’t tend to come over here. We had little or no interaction, except my mother, when I -- my mother worked for Harold McNeely. Harold McNeely had two sons, Jim and Harold Jr. We saw them now and then. But we had no interaction with whites. [00:20:00] Zero. We didn’t play sports. We didn’t -- nor did we see any great yearning to play. I can remember, and before Brown vs. Board of Education, we had begun to hear rumblings that we would have to go to school with white kids. And I underscore, we would have to go to school with white kids, because it was not the general desire on the part of us as black kids to want to go to school with white kids. That was not an aspiration. We knew that we were not getting the same treatment, because in our school, we had the desks that came from Griffin High School, we had the books that came from Griffin High School. We had all of the things that came from Griffin High School, and we didn’t ever get new [00:21:00] things. We got whatever there was. But we didn’t -- we were -- it was not a general yearning for trying to go to Griffin High School because we wanted to go to school with white kids. It was more the reality that there were all kinds of things that they had at Griffin High School that we knew. They had different machinery. They had different (shops?). They had different kinds of things that we knew they had over there, but we didn’t want -- that we didn’t see it as something that we were aspiring to, just because we wanted to go to Griffin High School. There was a benefit that most people did not understand about the segregated system that I thought was one of the great strengths of the segregated system. Our teachers appealed to our racial aspects, and they could in a way that today would be illegal. So that [00:22:00] our teachers, from very early on, they were not -- they were not advising us versus white kids. They were saying, you are good, you can achieve, and you -- if you are going to achieve, you will have to excel. There was always a sense from my earliest years that if you were going to succeed, you would have to excel. It would not be good enough for you just to be good. You would have to be better. And that -- and they were also aware that at some point in the future, life is not going to be as it is now. And so in order to realize the possibilities, you’ve got to prepare yourself. And so -- and it often took a, sort of, racial encouragement. You are as smart as the other kids. [00:23:00] You are -- you can do this, and you need -- but in order to do it, you’re going to have to work, and you’re going to have to work very hard. And that was a drill that -- you can’t really do that in schools in the same way today, but it was a very important aspect of our growing up. And then there were leaders. One of the most important school leaders in my early years was Horace Tate. Horace Tate actually came from the same city as Miss Prothro. They knew each other from Elberton. They knew each other from there. Graduated both from Fort Valley. Tate was the first really strong, firm man that I -- leader that I had -- that I [00:24:00] experienced growing up. And he saw in me the potential, and he used me for getting the water out of his basement, for picking up golf balls. They couldn’t go to the golf course, but he went way out on North Hill Street. There were big pasture, and he would hit golf balls, and I would be on the other side getting his golf balls. But he did something that was very important for me. He forced me -- and I say force, underscored -- to read. And he would give me a book, and he would tell me to read this book, and he said, “Come back tomorrow, and I want you to tell me about it.” And he would give me another book, and he’d, “Come back tomorrow,” and then read about it. And then he was the only person who did. He just gave me book, after book, after book, after book. This is very important, because I grew up in a family that, I was in my 40s before I knew somebody [00:25:00] like Dr. Seuss, or, you know, things like other childhood -- there was nobody sitting around reading books to me. There were no -- my -- there was none of that. And it was Horace Tate who introduced me to the literature as a young kid. It didn’t come out of the home. It didn’t even come out of the church. It came from someone looking and saying, you know, this is -- you need to start reading, and reading needs to be a part of your life. Horace Tate. And he was very important. I would say from the -- 1950 to 1957, when he left, he was a very strategic part of my life. BAUSKE: What kind of books did he give you to read? WARD: General kid -- you know, the -- BAUSKE: Was it kids’ books? WARD: -- Huckleberry -- yeah. Huckleberry Finn, history books. He would just take -- he would go and get a book out of his library, and [00:26:00] give it to me, and he’d go into -- and so some of the first books that I read that were beyond school, he was the one who introduced me to reading. Those are important things. This picture of me when I was here, this was in the projects. We left Solomon Street and moved to the projects. We were the first people to move into the projects. They’re now called Fairmont Homes. WALKER-HARPS: And that’s Fairmont Homes. WARD: Now, we were the first. In this building, that was the first time we had ever had running water in our house, a bathroom, a toilet, central heating and air. It was like we had died and gone to heaven (laughter) That we had electricity. On Solomon Street, we didn’t have electricity. [00:27:00] I don’t have the pic-- do I have the picture? Yeah. This picture, when I showed this picture to my mother -- my mother died some years ago -- when I showed it to her, she looked at it, and she said, “That’s not right.” (laughter) And I said, “What’s wrong with it?” She said, “It doesn’t have the pecan tree in the back.” (Joyce?) did another picture. This is a duplicate, and she put the pecan tree in it. This house had no electricity, no running water, no anything. We sat there, and that was the life. We didn’t know any other life. This was the outhouse, the house that’s in the back right here. That was the life. That wasn’t different from any other kid on the block there. So when we went to the projects, this was an enormous change in our life circumstance. It was a major [00:28:00] advance for us. Most of the people who I knew -- Phillip Hood and his family, everybody that I knew in my generation who were lucky enough to get there. The interesting thing about this, though, this is 220 Blanton Avenue. I have a -- I am a judge, and I am in my chambers, and there is a young black woman who comes in bloodied. And I ask her her address. And she says, “220 Blanton Avenue.” (laughter) And I thought, my goodness. I just sat. Two twenty Blanton Avenue, apartment C. That is the middle apartment next door to Annie Stephens and her daughter Gertrude Stephens. [00:29:00] Now, down the hall from this is (Kilitha?) Daniel and all of her kids, Keith Daniel and that whole group, right there on the corner right there. This was the -- right here in the middle of this building was (Joseph Harris?) and his family. This was like we had died and gone to heaven, that we had those homes. And so when they asked -- they wanted to name a street after me, I said put it out there, (as the?) kids, they can see that the kids who were -- when they were -- these were all -- this was a wonderful advantage for us, that we had housing. We never dreamed that we could have a house with a bathroom inside it, with a toilet inside it, with heat that you didn’t have to put in the fireplace. And I had -- when I was a little kid on Solomon Street, in the morning, I had to get up and go and find some (lighter?) wood, so that we could start a fire in the [00:30:00] stove, so that we could get the whole stove started. We got a wagon. The wagon wasn’t for fun. It was to put the coal on, and to run around the neighborhood and see if you could put things in it, to bring the wood back to start the whole fire. And here we were with a house that had heat, and all you had to do was to put (inaudible) -- and it had lights. Because we had lamps. We had a little kerosene lamp on Solomon Street, and we had to put our clothes on us to keep us warm there. And so that was an enormous -- this is 1952 that we had this. And it was one of the best things that happened in our growing -- we were so proud of that. It was just, sort of, like Alice in Wonderland. Anyway, that’s growing up. By the time I got -- I had begun to realize that I was a little bit more [00:31:00] serious in school that other kids, but I was -- and so I tried to differentiate myself. When I was in school in the seventh grade, I start playing the tuba in the high school band. And I didn’t -- and I tried not to do athletics and other things that other kids did, because I wanted kids who were not interested in being athletes to know that you could be popular or significant without doing that. And these are deliberate decisions in seventh, eighth, and ninth grades, that I decided. That I wasn’t going to sing, even though I had a good voice. My voice was a very -- there were two things that my mother was responsible for. One, I had a good voice. Early on, I knew that, because people told me. It’s, sort of, like, enough people just keep saying it. And the [00:32:00] other thing that I knew was that people thought that I was serious at an early age, and they began to encourage me. My success was a Pavlovian success. It was the reinforcement of positive, positive, positive, positive reinforcement. So that when I was in school, I wasn’t a teacher’s pet, but what I realized was that if you did your lesson, the teachers treated you better. And if you did your lesson, you -- they started to acknowledge you. And that was the sort of reinforcement that you got from -- that if you were doing that, the teacher would ask me to go and get her lunch, so I would go and get her lunch, and she’d give me a nickel. So there were a lot of things like that that I began to understand [00:33:00] that a certain kind of behavior carried with it certain kind of rewards, and vice versa. There were other kinds of behaviors where you didn’t get any rewards. That was probably a product of my teachers, because -- and my minister, but my teachers. It was not a product of the home. It was a product of my teachers, where it was very critically important for values. And so the value structure in my life came from my teachers. __: (inaudible) (value orientation?). WARD: (inaudible) stereotypical upbringing of kids being reared by grandmothers. What made the difference, I think, was the community. And this is where the African proverb does kick in, that it takes a village to raise the kid, because the other people did take a responsibility and saw a responsibility [00:34:00] for seeing you. When I read this thing about my first grade, my first grade teacher was still alive. And I asked her. She said she didn’t remember retaining me, but what she did say (laughter) was -- what she did say was that, “I remember that you were walking around with no shoes on. I always thought (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) (barefoot?), and I put you in school there.” So there was that kind of circumstance. Then there were -- so I never saw -- in fact, when I was at Clark, Sam Cook wrote a letter for me, for going to school, and he said, “For a kid, like Haskell, [00:35:00] from a deprived background, he has been remarkable successful.” And I thought, that was the first time I’d ever heard that I was deprived. (laughter) It really was quite a remarkable thing. In 1962, I was on a panel at Atlanta University. Haskell Ward, Clark student; (Robert Allen?); and Howard Zinn. Some of you may know Howard Zinn. BAUSKE: Oh, I do, yeah. WARD: Howard Zinn was a sociologist that had a -- I was on a panel with them. This is February 8, 1962. The next day, February 9, 1962, Sam Dubois Cook wrote me a letter. He said, “We were so proud of you last night. You did a magnificent job. Your presentation was instructive and stimulating. You were poised and articulate. Please accept my deep gratitude for a job well done. You have genuine abilities. I only hope that you will work hard and develop them. You have the making of a distinguished person. Please [00:36:00] keep up the good work. I am very proud to be your (inaudible). All good wishes.” This is Sam Cook. This kind of encouragement I started to get in the sixth and seventh grade. But that was the other side of the admonition, which also became a part of my character, and that was, don’t get the big head. This was very important that teachers (would say?) that they would -- and character building. They would encourage you and compliment you, but they would also say very quickly thereafter, don’t get the big head. Don’t get arrogant and don’t let your ego take control. And so if you look at my life, as I have gone through my life, you will see a characteristic of me that I have never thought that I was better than other people. [00:37:00] And a component of my behavior in life, public and private, has been to never appear that I was better than somebody else. This was a very important value that was instilled in us as kids. You are not better than somebody else. You’re not worse. You’re not less. But you’re not better. And those values were very, very, very significantly imbued. And you have a responsibility that is larger than your individual self. Now, people who were important had characteristics like that. Tate, for example. Tate’s interest was in social justice, and he didn’t call it social justice. He wanted us to achieve, and he knew that if we were to succeed, we would have to work. So he pressed us to work. So did C. W. Daniels. He pressed us [00:38:00] to work. But they -- we didn’t have class divisions with us. If we were poor, it was never something that I ever found was used as some reason for not getting attention. I think that that was an important element. When I was in -- when I was at -- a member of Reverend Shropshire’s church, I was the president of the Methodist Youth Fellowship. His son, James Shropshire, (who is now a?) PhD, he didn’t put his son above me. He allowed my leadership to be a part of the church family, even while his son was a year or two younger, because of this thing, you see. But he treated me with the kind of affection that he gave to his kids. [00:39:00] He had five or six kids, Reverend Shropshire. Raymond was very attentive to me, and to other kids, but he was attentive to me because I was in his church, and I was around them. And if they ever saw me doing anything untoward, they would call me on it. But these were reinforcement mechanisms that were in the community. So when I see this girl from 220 Blanton Avenue, and she’s got blood coming off of her, she’s getting a -- we didn’t have that. I mean, I’m not creating an idyllic life, but we didn’t have kids on cocaine. We didn’t have kids on marijuana. We didn’t -- geez, this is stuff we heard blacks in New York did, but not in Griffin. But then when I was a judge in Griffin, I see, whoa, this is stuff that they do in Detroit, and New York, and other places. [00:40:00] We had so much of that. That’s the texture of the change that had occurred. When I was a judge here in Griffin, the impact of drugs on our city and our county was so substantially different from anything that we’d have heard of. We would have just completely died of thinking if somebody -- that this kind of behavior would have been anywhere tolerable or acceptable. Those are the school years. My wife said, “Don’t talk too much about these -- your early years. There are other things you’ve done in your life.” But that’s the -- those are some of the observations that I had. I was different only to the extent that, in terms of objective outside measures, I achieved more than many. But it wasn’t different. [00:41:00] If I look at my high school and my college, we were the generation that came. And I went to -- when I went to Clark, we started the sit-ins in my freshman year. And that was a whole -- that was a chapter that -- we could have. When I was in the eighth grade, Herman Talmadge came to our school here at Fairmont and said, “You know, we know that you little negro children don’t want to go to school with whites, and you know also that blood will flow in the street.” He’s telling us this in our auditorium. He spoke to us in our auditorium here. This was the life that it was. That all changed when I went to college. Almost overnight, the circumstances of our life changed. But I think that when you look at where we came -- from what -- from where we came [00:42:00] in the period of the ’40s and the ’50s, the lives were so separate that it was almost as though we were living on two different planets. And yet, the curiosity about the South -- and it’s always -- I spent 30 years in New York. But the curiosity about the South is that, in the South, blacks and whites have always been very close, for circumstances that are very obvious. My mother worked for Harold McNeely. CUNNINGHAM: Right. WARD: She was right there in his house. She raised his kids. She put -- she buried his mother. She was there when Harold McNeely’s wife died. There was a fire in the house. We were the closest people to them. You had this paradox in the South of very, very close relationships with blacks and whites, and yet it was a hierarchical [00:43:00] relationship. In some towns -- we didn’t do it here, but in some towns, blacks went to church with the whites. And so -- we’re going to be -- I’m going to buried. I wanted to be buried here, but I’m going to be buried in the cemetery in Atlanta with my wife, Oakland Cemetery, where Maynard Jackson is. And there was -- we were on a little tour. My wife is on the board of Oakland Cemetery. And we did a little tour. And one place in the white section of the cemetery, there is the black nanny in the same burial family plot. And this is, sort of, the paradox of life. They were so close, that when they -- even though blacks were not allowed in that section of the cemetery, they insisted. She’s going to be buried here with us. And then [00:44:00] that’s where she’s buried. You have that kind of duality in the South. You have this. And of course, you have the brutality of the relationships. That is the well-known and well-deserved opprobrium. But the other side is that if you had -- now, I’ve lived all over the country, east and west. Blacks probably are closer to whites in the South than they are in any other part of the country. I spent 30 years in New York. I was deputy mayor of New York. I was in -- I saw, when David Rockefeller -- David Rockefeller was a friend, (when I saw that?). But that’s very unusual. That’s very unusual. The relationships are way out. [00:45:00] And so you’ll see in the duality here. There’s an interesting thing. I was in the State Department. Jimmy Carter was president. I was living in Lagos, Nigeria. I was with the Ford Foundation. And my friend, classmate, Ben Brown, was Jimmy Carter’s deputy campaign manager. And he sent me a note. He says, “I think we’re going to win, and you’d better come home.” And why did he tell me that? Because I was the only one from our group who was in international affairs as opposed to civil rights. And he said, “You’d better come home.” And so when Carter became president, I was Secretary Vance’s Africa advisor in the State Department, the first African American in the secretary’s office at that time. We were dealing with some very important [00:46:00] African issues in the first year. Zimbabwe, Angola, Mozambique. I pressed for the president to meet with the delegation from Angola, the first time the president has met with what they call the freedom fighters. When they came to meet, this is a big deal. And Carter was meeting with them. Carter had never met with -- no president had ever met with these freedom fighters from Angola and Mozambique. The guys from the Angolan African side began the meeting with the statement that, “We heard the shot fired around the world at Bunker Hill, and we took our inspiration from the shot fired around the world from Bunker Hill.” He started very [00:47:00] much like this. “And yet you have been arming our oppressors.” He’s telling the president. I think, oh, my God, this was a mistake. This was a great mistake to go through -- (laughter) to put this meeting, you know, then. And we looked. And we were arming Angola -- I mean, Portugal. We were the major arms supplier for Portugal. Portugal was in charge of Angola and Mozambique. Portugal was the first European country in Africa and the last one out. What did Jimmy Carter say when he finished talking with him? This guy is -- Carter said to him, “We, too, were surprised that you stayed under the Portuguese for 500 years. It was not for us to fight your war. It was for you to fight your battle. And when we saw that you were succeeding, then we would assist you.” [00:48:00] And that’s very interesting. This is very interesting throughout, throughout, because we were led to believe that the Africans didn’t want -- they -- the ones here, they were better off. They were better off. They were better off here than they were -- even in slavery, they were better off. We never -- we always knew that was just propaganda. But the reality was that when you decide to act, things change. Providence takes over. And things began to act. All manner of things began. The moment you say that you can, you will. Then providence takes over, and things began to act in your favor. Whatever you think you can do and believe you can, begin it. Begin it now. That’s one of my speeches, that things change. [00:49:00] Carter, a Southerner, telling these guys, “You guys were dumb to be under the Europeans for 500 years.” And so the same thing here. When we decided to act -- one day, it just started. We were -- in fact, in Atlanta, we were embarrassed that the guys at A&T beat us to it. They beat us to -- because we thought we were the top of the roost in Atlanta, and then when they started sit-ins in February in A&T, we thought, that’s something we should have done first. So when we looked at, were we just going to repeat? We decided not to just repeat, and start sit-in right that -- we -- (break in audio) WARD: -- (listed?) our grievances in that [00:50:00] document, and we started the sit-ins after that. And the sit-ins started in March 1960. The results of that were very significant in the history of our country. WALKER-HARPS: You had just left Griffin, or you probably had gone about a year. So you are part of the sit-ins at Clark in Atlanta. WARD: In Atlanta. Right. WALKER-HARPS: Let me ask you what you think about the fact that the relationship of blacks and whites in Griffin, as described by you earlier, impact the civil rights movement. In other words, the people who had to participate in the action were a part of those families. Many of them had mothers or sisters who worked in the homes of the whites that they were rebelling against. [00:51:00] How did that play out, or was there -- are you aware of it -- the relationship among the blacks and the whites, I would think, would be different in Griffin than it would have been in a larger area. WARD: My grandmother and mother were often asked what they thought of all of this. It was most often framed as outside agitation. Well, you know, you’re not in favor of that, are you? My sense is, there is a long, well-known history that blacks who were working as domestics or in subservient roles knew that it was not in their interest to tell whites what they were thinking, even though they were thinking just the opposite of what they were [00:52:00] saying, in many cases. It was not uncommon for blacks to say, do you expect me to say X, Y, and Z? Well, that was not to their economic advantage. There was not any -- it was not in the interest of blacks to have an open dialogue with whites about their feelings, because otherwise, they would be -- they wouldn’t be working. And that was a part of a system of control that played out from the earliest days of the slave period. And it played out into -- I think, probably, if anything, even many of the blacks were surprised. We were surprised at the [00:53:00] unity, because blacks had not -- had been often criticized for not being unified. But we were surprised. And I think it was a big impact, the Montgomery bus boycott. I was, I think, in the tenth grade, or in the ninth grade, when the bus boycotts started. And we were really very proud at the fact that the blacks in Montgomery could stay together for over a year, and develop a system of transportation and getting about. And I think it would be very important to not underestimate the impact of the Montgomery boycott. [00:54:00] I think it would be very important to not underestimate the impact of Emmett Till’s death in 1955. It was such a brutal thing. I was 15. I was -- I think Emmett Till was about the same age. That that occurred -- and so we began to see that we needed to move away from the reticent behavior, and to move more aggressively for our own wellbeing. I think that when we were in school, it was also very important for us that we all [00:55:00] acted together. I know that it was very difficult for the leaders at the colleges, and President Brawley called me in several times about being too aggressive. But I think it was important for us. I think it was important that people such as Reverend Shropshire, Mr. Tate, some of the older blacks who were not threatened, who didn’t see this as a threat to their own commerce. Now, in Griffin, we didn’t have a lot of commerce. Raymond and his brother owned the sandwich shop. They called it (Triple-H Sandwich Shop?). And they -- WALKER-HARPS: Raymond and (Phillip?) Head. WARD: Yeah. They had a sandwich shop. It was a lunch counter and booths. Raymond owned the (inaudible), [00:56:00] they called it, and (inaudible) dry cleaning and tailoring shop. Raymond went to Tuskegee. Raymond was a veteran, and social life with blacks was at the -- what everybody in Griffin called the club, and that’s the VFW. The club. Now, this is an aspect of my life that most people didn’t know. I played drums in the club, in our band. We had a swing band. We used to play at white fraternity houses, and different -- that’s how I got money. At the club one night, James Brown comes in, and he comes right up to the stage, and he says to me -- he had a hit song called “Please, Please, Please.” (laughter) And he comes up to me. I’m playing drums. And he says, “When I say hit it, I want you to hit it.” And [00:57:00] he started saying, this is -- “Please, Please, Please.” That’s about ’55 or ’56, somewhere around. But we played all around. And everybody in the club -- Aretha Franklin, James Brown, B. B. King, Sam Cooke, you name it -- they came to the club. Raymond was in charge of the club. It was the big -- it was -- BAUSKE: Is this the VFW? WARD: Yes. Yeah. BAUSKE: Right through that little -- WALKER-HARPS: Yes. BAUSKE: Wow. (laughter) WARD: Etta James. Dinah Washington. B. B. King. I played directly with James Brown, when James Brown had his first hit. This -- and they would come to Griffin. We had -- they -- we had the big stars all the time. And they would play in Atlanta, and when they weren’t playing in Atlanta, they’d come down to Griffin, and they’d come to the club. The club was full. It was always -- this was [00:58:00] the one big social thing for people around there. And I don’t know. They probably still do it, but I don’t (inaudible). WALKER-HARPS: So Raymond Head and James -- (Jimmy Holland?) were the leaders, the musical -- well, Jimmy was music, but Raymond was just business. WARD: Yeah, Raymond was the business. He was in charge of it. Raymond’s dad was a businessman before. I remember Raymond’s dad died. But Raymond’s dad used to bring -- Raymond brought -- right where I was born, right across the street was an open field, and Raymond’s dad brought Joe Louis here. He would bring stars here. They were enterprising guys who introduced us to different people. Right in the middle of [00:59:00] what -- Miss (Clara Lovett’s stands?). She had a little stand that (Oscar Calloway’s?) dad (bought?), snow -- (Dewdrop Inn?). She had a little stand there. We used to go over there and get a hot dog. She was -- you ate hot dogs and pig feet. (laughter) And she had it so clean that you couldn’t even go in there. She was very particular about how you kept it. But Raymond -- Miss Clara Lovett owned the stand on the corner, and Mr. (Evans?) was a white guy who owned the grocery store right on the corner, across Third Street. On the Third Street, right across from Trinity Church, there’s two businesses. One is a black restaurant. The other one is a white grocery store. And I used to carry grocery -- deliver grocery in my wagon for Mr. Evans, (Bill?) Evans there. CUNNINGHAM: [01:00:00] So you mentioned the Heads. So who were some of the other prominent black business owners around that time? WARD: The significant business professionals -- probably the most significant in terms of assets was Lon Touchstone. Lon was an officer with Atlanta Life, and so was Miss McDowell’s husband an officer with Atlanta Life. But Lon began to buy lots of property. In fact, even to this day, his estate under Frank Touchstone is probably the largest individual property owner in Spalding County. (And he was?) very, very big. I remember seeing him once, back early ’60s, and I was telling him I wanted to buy some property, and he said, “Well, it’s a good time to buy. You could buy an acre for a dollar back there.” But he was very big. Miss Clara Lovett’s [01:01:00] stand was right there. There was a very popular club in the middle of -- on Solomon Street, all the way down before you get to First Street, there was a place, there was a nightclub, right in the middle of the place, where they had a jukebox, and a lot of people hung out there. Most parents -- (mine?) didn’t know good from bad in terms of telling you what to stay away from, other than don’t get out in the street. They drank a lot of beer and wine down at that place down there, and so if you had any admonition at all, it was to stay away from places like that. Now, most of the black businesses were right up in behind Raymond -- WALKER-HARPS: Slaton Avenue? WARD: Slaton Avenue. So that was a little strip that on Friday -- there were a couple of beer saloons, they call them. There was the black movie theater there down on one end of the corner, [01:02:00] and on the other end of the corner was a barbershop. What’s-her-name and her husband owned the barbershop. WALKER-HARPS: Stinson. WARD: Mary and Ralph, yeah. WALKER-HARPS: Ralph and Mary Stinson. WARD: Ralph and Mary Stinson had a barbershop. There was a taxi company on the other side. There was a pool room that most good boys didn’t go to, because everybody thought pool rooms were bad, and so you didn’t go to that. But the business strip, the Griffin version of Auburn Avenue, was a one-block strip between Hill Street and Eighth Street. That little strip in there was bubbling with activity in the ’40s and ’50s and ’60s. It was the center of activity. Beyond that, there really weren’t any commerce of any note there, if you had anything at all. Now, [01:03:00] the way a lot of blacks got money in commerce was (inaudible) in fish fries, and selling moonshine. They would sell little things of little -- and they would have -- Friday night, they would have house parties. (In fact?), when my mother came back on the scene, she would have fish fries and things like that. This was a -- and people would come and sit in the house, and they would drink, (you know?), and they would sit, and that was a very popular kind of activity. Enterprising people (learning how?). The other thing -- the other way that blacks made money was in putting people up who were traveling. Because the hotels and other public accommodations were not available, blacks who had a room had people in as rented -- you know, like this modern version of -- CUNNINGHAM: Bed [01:04:00] and breakfast. CRUICKSHANK: B and B. WARD: Bed and breakfast. CUNNINGHAM: Sure. WARD: This was very popular amongst blacks throughout the country, but especially in the South. And people knew where you could stay. WALKER-HARPS: (At Miss Connolly there on?) Solomon Street. WARD: Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. They had places like that. They would put you up, and they had a room. And the word went around as to who could take them, if guys came in. For example, one time, Bobby “Blue” Bland stayed with us on Solomon Street, once we moved from our -- and now we were living with our mother. The word went around that there are places where you would stay in. Somebody’s going to be in town. If Ray Charles is going to be in town, and he needs a place to stay at night, (laughter) they would stay. The Heads often had -- Joe Louis stayed over at their house when he came into town. That was how you [01:05:00] were accommodated. CUNNINGHAM: Can you tell us a little bit more about the other types of economic opportunities for the folks in the black community? WALKER-HARPS: Perhaps the funeral homes and... WARD: The established places that you had that were necessary was, you always had to have a funeral home. And in many communities, you also had associations that were established to accommodate death, so that you had burial societies that were, sort of, ad hoc associations that were put together. You always had a funeral home. You always had a barbershop. If you were lucky, you had a cleaners. When I was growing up, Griffin was more centrally strategic economically. [01:06:00] Places like Fayetteville and McDonough were way, way in the boondocks, so everybody in those places came to Griffin. Griffin was the center of commerce. It was -- for just as a general proposition. Even when I was in high school, the black kids from Pike County and other places went to school in Griffin. So they tended to come around here. But from a business standpoint, blacks as late as my late ’60s were still doing most of the work on yards, most of the work on repairs. I remember (Danny Kane?), for example, who was the last of those who could do cane in chairs. That was [01:07:00] an area of skill that blacks had, that they still have in Charleston, for example. You had a thriving industry. It never was a thriving enterprise here, but you had that kind of thing. Manual semiskilled labor, semiskilled to unskilled, was basically that. Anything that required an infrastructure or financial activity was usually behind. Blacks in comparison to whites, in terms of the economy, were always a half to two-thirds less, and that continues to this day. If you look at the median family income, for example, in Spalding County, you’re not much beyond $20,000 in your aggregate income, and if you looked [01:08:00] at the aggregate income for blacks in Spalding County today, you are still under $20,000 for the family of four, for blacks (inaudible). (coughs) The disparity continues, the economic disparities continue. And to be disproportionately the case with the African American communities in the city. One of the disturbing things about small towns, in small towns -- a lot of people deliberately want to live in small towns. A lot of people don’t want to live in small towns. But the economic disparity and inequality in small towns, especially black versus white, continues to be a very striking difference, [01:09:00] and it -- the circumstances -- for example, I was active for a while in trying to get sewer service in the northern part. I dare say that if whites were impacted the way blacks are impacted in the northern part of the city, this issue would have been resolved 15 or 20 years ago. So that even today, when you talk about economic development, it isn’t economic development that is designed to lift all boats equally. It is more designed to accommodate whites than it is to accommodate -- and if you raise that, it’s usually an adversarial issue when you raise it, so that the economic parity continues to be a matter of business as usual in our small towns, and I think that’s one of the unfortunate [01:10:00] things here. I think most ambitious kids want to leave and not stay, because of the circumstance. And when I was growing up, my teachers advised me to leave Griffin if I wanted to succeed. And they said it would be in my interest to leave, because you will not have the opportunity here. And so you have this anomaly of a kid growing up in my circumstance, and he goes out and becomes the deputy mayor of New York City, where everybody is saying he’s really quite one of the significant leaders in our city, and I had been a significant leader in New York before I was deputy mayor. But this is the price that the South was paying for the exodus of its citizens. There were people like me [01:11:00] who were fully capable of making a contribution in the best years of my life, in Georgia, in Griffin, even, but who didn’t have the opportunity here. If I wanted to make a mark in life, it wouldn’t have been possible here. And that’s the great tragedy of the South. The South produced the better part of our national leaders, especially African American leaders. And I think that there are parts of it -- and there some really interesting sociological issues involved here. But I think the coherence, the cultural coherence of being from Africa was very important. [01:12:00] I think it’s more important even than African Americans understood, and even today, fail to understand the significance of the cultural impact of Africa on our lives. Now, these are people who were (wrenched?) out of Africa and brought here, and who are deliberately divided, and said that anything African is bad, and you are better off here than you would have been there. And you have -- my friend Basil Davidson said that the cultural dispossession of African Americans is one of the great cruelties in human history. That they brought here, were not allowed to learn English, began to speak English but didn’t speak it the way the King spoke English, and were ridiculed and laughed at their ebola -- or what is the [01:13:00] language pattern -- WALKER-HARPS: Ebonics? Ebonics? WARD: -- that you went through. Not allowed to learn, because it was a crime in the earliest years to learn. And so you go through this cultural dispossession, and yet what people say is Southern hospitality really is a African hospitality. It is the remnant of -- I’ll tell you something. Everybody notices, if they come from outside of the South, that Southerners speak to each other. Black or white, they speak to each other. And that’s not Southern. That’s African. It comes from -- and if -- one of the greatest slights that one could visit of one person to another is to walk by [01:14:00] somebody and not speak. And you would hear the person say, “He didn’t even speak to me. Didn’t even even speak to me.” That’s African. I was doing a lot of research, and I was talking to the former prime minister of what was then Southern Rhodesia, a guy by the name of Garfield Todd. We had been talking. I was staying at his house for about four or five days. And he -- and I said, Garfield Todd had been in Rhodesia for 50 years at the time I was talking with him. And I said, “You’ve been here for all these years.” In fact, he went (on his honeymoon?) -- he was originally from New Zealand and went to Southern Rhodesia. “You’ve been here all these years. What has Africa taught you? I mean, what have you learned from being (out here?)?” [01:15:00] Just as he was about to answer it, his house lady, who is managing his house, an African lady, came in, and he started telling her what she is to do during the day. And she says to him, “Good morning, Mr. Todd.” And he says, “Damn it!” He says, “This is what I’ve learned here. And yet I fail every time. The humanity of the African, the relationship on a personal level. They would never begin the day without greeting. They would never engage you without greeting.” And he says, “This is what I see.” So what we see, despite the centuries of [01:16:00] separation, there is a lot of the humanity of Africa that went over the oceans with the African American -- into the African Americans. And it’s that humanity that you see, because if you look at the way in which Africans, by and large, were not disloyal. By and large, stayed. By and large, took care, even in the war. Even in the war, they were staying with the families in the war period. And it is a kind of loyalty that mystified people. How could you do that? Now, having spoken about the war, my family, as far back as I can determine, was always from here. And in 1867, [01:17:00] we traced my great-great-grandfather to an Ira Ward. Died in Lynchburg in 1865 or somewhere around that period. We didn’t trace my great-great-grandfather until we were able to look at the estate records from his estate. And you will find my great-great-grandfather (Louis?) Ward in his papers. And we can’t go back before that. We can do DNA in my record, and I have done DNA in my record, and on my father’s side, you will find my mother from the Yorubas in Nigeria, and -- my mother’s side the Yorubas, and my father’s side the Igbo in Nigeria. Most of the African [01:18:00] Americans in this area came from Nigeria, right along the coast, so it’s not uncommon, that. But I didn’t know this until about a year and a half ago. (I’d?) been doing genealogical research to try to figure out, where did the Wards come from, and where am I? I don’t know where Haskell came from. I think that -- I was about to say that the gift my mother gave me, one of the best gifts that she gave me, was my name, Haskell. It’s usually a Jewish surname. It is not very -- the first first-name Haskell I ever met was in New York, and it was the first first-name Haskell he ever met. He was in charge of the New York Jewish Committee. But that was a -- it was interesting, because it has always been significant in my life to have been born with a unique name. And I am aware of that, that it is something that -- it’s like Cher, you know? You could have [01:19:00] one name like that. So my mother, I could never get clear where she got it from. I think it was a white guy who she knew, and she named me Haskell. But it was very important in my own sense of self, and distinctive, because throughout the rest of my life, I’ve never met another black Haskell, for example, and it’s very rare that I’ve met another Haskell altogether. Now, this is a little bit, sort of, off the path, but I think there are things like this, when you look at the composition of your life, that if you look at all of the aggregate elements of your life, it mattered. My name mattered. I was gifted with a voice that people liked. So it was something that was an attribute from the earliest. My first speech was at Trinity Church, right down on Solomon Street, here, and my -- I was a little three-year-old saying, “[01:20:00] What you looking at me for? I didn’t come to stay. I just came to say today is Easter Day.” (laughter) This is down (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) I forgot that -- my sister had to repeat the lines for me, this sister right here. Anyway, you know, there are some things -- and so there are some attributes that I have that are Southern. One is storytelling. This is Southern. It’s also African, but it’s also Southern. It’s Southern. And Southern speakers are very good at weaving in different stories and coming back to the original story. And it’s very, very -- it’s a very intricate kind of thing. Southerners are very good at this. The best ones are very good at it. And I can notice now, in the last several years, I’m losing the ability to start off on one story and take it a long way around and come back to the [01:21:00] original point. That’s where I can begin to see the effect of aging. But I’ve always been in speaking. I started the debating team at Clark College. If you ever saw that movie The Great Debaters? CRUICKSHANK: Yeah. WALKER-HARPS: Yes. WARD: I did something. By the time I get to Clark -- this is very interesting. By the time I get to Clark, President Brawley was our president. And I went to the president. Now, look at this little kid who failed the first and second grade, and I tell the president of Clark, “I don’t like the academic environment here. This place doesn’t look like a college. I mean, it doesn’t feel like a college. Everybody’s out joining fraternities and sororities, and they’re not studying.” What did the president say to me? He says, “Look. I’m raising money to run this school. Why don’t you improve the academic environment?” (laughter) So I (said, “I don’t know?”?), and we started [01:22:00] the Clark College Forum and Forensic Society. Exists to this day. Exists to this day. We beat Harvard. We beat Emory. We beat NYU. We were all over (the country -- it’s?) The Great Debaters. That still exists to this day. But it taught me something. Don’t just criticize. Go out and do that. That I started the -- I never joined a fraternity, but I understand from Rodney that the Bogarsuns still exists. I started that at Fairmont when I was here. WALKER-HARPS: Oh, really? WARD: Yeah. Me and Phillip Hood. WALKER-HARPS: Phillip Hood. BAUSKE: What is that? WARD: It’s just a men’s social organization. I never joined a fraternity in college. I had already moved away from that. But I was always very keen to not just complain about things. Just go out -- just go ahead and do it. WALKER-HARPS: What other changes did you make at Fairmont? [01:23:00] You’re right. The Bogarsuns and Bogarsettes still exist. WARD: Yeah. I think probably when I was a student, by the time I had got -- so we went to the sixth grade in Moore Elementary School, and by the time you got to the seventh grade, you were already at Fairmont, so that it was seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve. You were quite young in that. But I think by the time I was already in the ninth or tenth grade, kids started calling me Head, and they were alluding to my intellectual preoccupations there. And so I think it became possible for kids to be interested in studying without being -- [01:24:00] without it being a problem. WALKER-HARPS: We’re going to take a break. WARD: No, we can -- as you can -- (break in audio) WARD: -- sort of intellectually directed, that I was more cerebral. I was never antisocial, asocial, in school, but I deliberately didn’t do -- I didn’t play around a lot. I think I was -- by the time I had gotten to high school, I’d realized that life was pretty serious, and that I had a lot of work to do if I was going to get on in life. And that -- I figured out very early on that school was a time to learn and not to play, and that if I did play, it should be subordinate to learning. And that -- [01:25:00] that took place all the way through. When I graduated from high school, my ambition was to be a psychiatrist, and I think that was part of a trend. People tended to confide in me when I was in high school, even older people. In college, the same thing. There was some advice that I was given by teachers in the early years, elementary school, to not gossip, and to not involve myself in other people’s lives and other people’s -- the things that could be detrimental to your own growth, to stay away from interacting about other people’s lives. Especially in small towns, it could be a liability, that everybody knows your business. Stay out of people’s business. So I grew up with a very strong [01:26:00] animus toward engaging myself in gossip and things like that. We had a reputation for being -- we, as blacks, had a reputation for being envious of blacks who succeeded, so much so that we were often compared to crabs in a barrel, that blacks would pull you -- once they saw you going up, they would try to pull you down. And so the way to avoid that is to stay out of engaging in a lot of -- what are the TV shows, the reality TV type stuff. The less you put that in your life, the better. The less you tried to be like everybody else, it also would be better for you. If you tried to emulate other people, that you’d probably be better off following your own star. The fact that I [01:27:00] did not go into civil rights, as most of my -- I was contemporary with Julian Bond, with John Lewis, with Jesse Jackson, with -- in a different time period, but I was with Martin Luther King when he was in Atlanta. I made a strategic decision there. We don’t need another Jesse Jackson. I couldn’t be another Martin Luther King. Julian Bond was very good. So I took a different path. Ben Brown was very good. Lonnie King was very good. It wasn’t that I thought I was better than them, but how many do you need? They were very good, very good people. It was looking at what trends there were, so when I went to Africa in 1962, it completely transformed my direction [01:28:00] in life. I went to Kenya. BAUSKE: Was that in the Peace Corps? WARD: It was before the Peace Corps. I went on a program called Operation Crossroads Africa. I went into Kenya having met President Kennedy. And President Kennedy came up to me and said -- he saw my name -- “You’re going to see Tom Mboya. Tell him we’re going to bring another group here.” Tom Mboya and Senator Kennedy started something called the Kenya Airlift, and they brought over students to study in American universities. In the first group, my first year in college, 1959, they brought Barack Obama Sr. He went to Hawaii. I did meet Tom Mboya. In fact, his daughter works as a senior person at the Coca-Cola today. Her husband, of Mboya’s daughter, [01:29:00] is the governor of Nairobi province. I (inaudible) met a lot of significant Kenyans. And when I came back from Crossroads in 1962, I wrote Sargent Shriver a letter, saying that I would like to go back. And he wrote me a letter. It’s somewhere in my papers. “We don’t have anything in Kenya, but we do in Ethiopia.” So I went to the Peace Corps in Ethiopia. That was a huge impact on my life. It was a direction that I think -- it was unfortunate that more African Americans didn’t do it, because I think it expanded our horizon of the world, in a way that we are now seeing the impact of the globalization in the world. But I spent two years in Ethiopia, teaching. Then I left Ethiopia, and then I went to UCLA, and I spent two years at [01:30:00] UCLA. I was at UCLA when I saw Lew Alcindor play his first basketball game. I think he stayed Lew Alcindor until after he graduated. But I got to know him. I lived next door to Arthur Ashe at UCLA. Arthur Ashe is in this video that I (left?) here. When I was there, I said to Lew -- we used to send basketball teams to Africa. And Lew and -- they had two other guys. UCLA won 10 straight. Ten straight titles. And this was the beginning of that run. He had the other two guys, Mike Warren, who became a TV star, and Lucius Allen, and then Lew Alcindor, who, later, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. But I saw them in their first game at UCLA. [01:31:00] I came back to UCLA, and I talked to the basketball coach, the world-famous Johnny Wooden. And the athletic director was J. D. Morgan. And I talked with them about letting them go to Africa. And they said no. You know, they might get sick. I was invited back to UCLA in 2011, and this was because they were celebrating the 50th anniversary of the Peace Corps, and they invited what they considered outstanding UCLA graduates to be on a panel. There’s an interview with me on -- put my name and UCLA, and there’s a half an hour interview with me on that, the impact of UCLA, and my having come from Griffin, Georgia. [01:32:00] There is a discussion that’s relevant to this discussion, because I talk about the impact of going from Atlanta, Griffin, to Westwood. That’s a very interesting interview. And I’ve been very much involved in UCLA activities in the years following. I’ve been very much involved in the Peace Corps. We give a lot of money to the Peace Corps, just because we believe that it’s a very important organization. Those are, sort of, the parameters in (our life?). And I would say the city has a -- [01:33:00] has underappreciated the role of people like Jewell in our civil discourse. And Jewell and I have now known each other for 25 years or so. But without the work that she does personally and that she does institutionally, life would be a lot more difficult, and the society would be under even greater strain. She takes a lot of grief. What most people don’t know is that she takes a lot of grief from blacks, as well. And it’s a, in many ways, a thankless job. But it’s one of the remaining jobs that, [01:34:00] until our society is more equal, you’ve got to have somebody who is pressing the point, and you’ve got to have somebody doing it in a way that carries some force with it. And so I’ve always respected and admired her, because it’s a job that I know from years of living what a thankless task it is. WALKER-HARPS: We can see that with you now, in your life, and you can’t -- you’ve gone all over the world. You’ve traveled all over the world, and you held most prominent positions here and abroad, but when you came back to Griffin to spend some time, and you became a judge and whatever, you -- I would think, in my [01:35:00] opinion, that you, too, discovered that Griffin was not receptive of you as it ought to have been. Was that your impression? WARD: I think people underappreciate the impact of white privilege. That’s a concept that we’re hearing now, and we’re hearing it more because of the direction of the country. But I think it is axiomatic, automatic, the hierarchical relationships that have existed, that are difficult -- we [01:36:00] still -- let’s see. It was 1863 that the Emancipation was proclaimed. And there has, in our region, and not just in our region -- my wife would be the first to point that out, throughout the country -- a resistance to equalizing opportunities. So, yes, in Griffin it is difficult. It’s easier for Griffin to accept me, but it is still difficult for the city. I think the city is proud. I’ll tell you, speaking about Griffin. When I went to the Peace Corps, you had to have the permission of the Selective Service to leave the country. [01:37:00] We had the registration. The Selective Service draft boards had to approve your leaving the country. And when I -- there was a woman in charge of the draft board. It was a long time ago, so I don’t know who it was. Nineteen sixty-three, 54 years ago. She was very proud. She was very proud that I was going to join the Peace Corps. And there was a civic Griffin pride that transcended beyond race, that you were doing this. There is a paternalism that people who are not the object of the paternalism don’t even know that it’s paternalism. [01:38:00] So that there’s a lot of behavior from something as innocent as, where’d you learn to speak English, that people will ask you. They think it’s a very nice and generous thing. And I’m -- Southern -- the part of the South that is Southern in me is that we don’t try to insult people, just as a rejoinder. And a lot of that comes from Africa, as well. Africans don’t want to insult, and we don’t insult, and so we don’t try to insult. And if you do insult, it’s deliberate, and it’s aggressive, and it’s intended that way. But by and large, my sense is that there was a place that was -- that you were supposed to stay in, and if you moved outside of that place, [01:39:00] then you got into trouble. I don’t think -- there is a part of the South that is also out of Africa. People don’t believe in being straight and telling the truth. They talk around issues. They talk around issues. They don’t say what is really -- they mean. They talk around, and they say -- that is something that is less the case in the East, where I spent 30 years. People will go right straight to the heart of it. And so you don’t get deliberate. You don’t get deliberate. There is an obfuscation in the communication system in which people don’t tell you what they really think, and they are proud of the fact that they didn’t tell you what they -- didn’t tell you the way it was. [01:40:00] And in some ways, the South thinks it’s insulting and revolting -- not something you do, when you are directly, quote, honest with somebody about something, so that there is a lot of missed communication in the way in which people communicate, because we don’t want to be direct in the way. This goes back to the question about whether or not -- what did blacks tell whites when they were working for them and the civil rights movement was going on? They don’t tell you what it is, because it’s a threat to their own person that you can do that. So a lot of the things are threats like that, that people just don’t want to visit. I think that, [01:41:00] by and large, racial communications overall are probably better, but there is still very significant barriers to communications in the South. I think it’s less with me. I think that it’s less with my wife, for example. I think that there is a role that she can play, that I could play, that’s different than we could have played when I was growing up, but the inequality is there. And the glaring disparity [01:42:00] in the way in which the justice system treats African Americans and whites is really one of the most difficult remnants. In some days, I wake up, and I think that the justice system was designed as a way to control the behavior of blacks and nothing else. And that the system wasn’t meant to apply to whites. And that’s a pretty strong statement. BAUSKE: Especially for a judge. WARD: Yeah. But as I’ve seen the [01:43:00] assumptions that accompany the system, the assumption -- I was on a jury in New York. And there were a couple of black guys who had been charged with selling drugs. And when the police came, they had -- in New York, there are air spaces and air shafts in buildings, and all around, you can actually look out, and you can see all the way down to the bottom. They were on the ledge on one of those when the police came, but the drugs were inside. They didn’t have the drugs with them. So the case is in court, [01:44:00] and the jury -- and I’m on the jury. And the jurors said, several of them, that as soon as the defendants walked into the courtroom, they said, as soon as they looked at them, they said they were guilty. And we were talking about this. And they were saying -- they said, he’s guilty. I could tell when I looked at him that he was guilty. That attitude that you are automatically guilty if you are -- and unfortunately, what plays into that is the dress that a lot of black kids walk around with now. It almost advertises that, you know, that I am somebody who is an automatic target. But the jury was -- [01:45:00] the jury decision was leaning in the direction that this guy looks like he’s guilty because of the way he looks. And I can tell the way he looks. And so much of that ingrained attitude in people’s minds that this kid is this way because he is dressed that way. And so, having said that, I am aware of people’s attitudes, so you will see me dressed like this. And I have dressed like this all of my life. So that my wife says, “You don’t have to dress like this.” I said, “I know I don’t have to dress like this, but if I don’t dress like this, there is a perception that you are something else.” And so if I can be responsible on something as simple as dress, to change people’s attitudes and behavior [01:46:00] toward me, that’s a compromise that I am prepared to make as I negotiate my way through life. WALKER-HARPS: It’s interesting that you would say that, because that’s a message that we’re trying to send now in the community. And when Leah, your wife, came and spoke, she alluded to that, to the traditional values and necessity of the role that you play, and how important it is. I intended to send her a note to indicate how I appreciate her reinforcing the kinds of things that we are trying to instill in young people today, that are -- there is a certain way that you need to, or you almost must, carry yourselves in order to be recognized for who you really are. WARD: Yeah. Well, I began to learn that here in Griffin early. And so [01:47:00] my -- even though I would defend the right of any person to wear a dress, or their hair, their clothes, their whatever. This is America, and that’s what we stand for. You can do that. But if you are an African American, and you decide that you want to dress in a very expressive way, that’s your right, and then society shouldn’t penalize you for it, but society does penalize you for that. And you have to be aware that society penalizes you for that. And you will get people such as myself who will defend you in a court of law for your self-expression, but you also have to realize that that behavior carries with it subtle penalties [01:48:00] against you. And if that’s okay with you, and it doesn’t matter, then that’s fine. And if you can afford the penalty that you get, then that’s fine. CRUICKSHANK: But you can’t say that as a judge in a court of law to a defendant. WARD: You can’t say that any more than I could say to a student in a classroom that you are as good as white kids. That’s against the law. You can’t say that to a black kid in a white school, in an integrated school, you are as good as a white kid, and you should behave this way as opposed to that way. No. You don’t say that, nor should you be making racial characterizations of that kind. But I think that it’s important for people to know that there are perceptions [01:49:00] that become a part of an operating system of thought where people judge you before they hear you say anything. And if you are already a millionaire, and if you are already a billionaire, it doesn’t really matter what people say. But if you are an aspiring person who wants to go somewhere in the business world, there are certain kind of business habits -- and even mimicking the behavior or dress codes of young white professionals may not be the thing that you want to do, because the dress code in businesses is changing significantly, and it’s not as formal as it was 20 or 30 years ago, but the standards are not applied equally with respect to behavior. And that’s just something -- WALKER-HARPS: That’s a fact, yeah. WARD: -- that you have to recognize as you negotiate [01:50:00] your way through life. You have to decide, where is it that I’m going to challenge the system behavior-wise, and what is it worth for me in so challenging the system? This is something that is something that you learn, that we begin to learn, that I learned as I was growing up here in Griffin. Where do I challenge? At what cost do I challenge? What’s the reward? What’s the penalty? And those are decisions that can often make the difference between success and failure in life. Where do I challenge behavior? It starts in the home. When do I say know to my parents? When do I say -- when do I acquiesce? In the school, [01:51:00] when do I challenge the behavior? When do I acquiesce? Where is it appropriate? Those are decisions that occur in almost every aspect of life. In some cases, people get into a fight on the highway, one driver to another driver, and it leads to death. Somebody challenging somebody else’s behavior in a car. And that’s one of the things that makes for one’s growth, in a sense, in society. How does one accommodate? When does one say, I’m sorry? When does one say, excuse me? When is it necessary? Can one defuse by just saying, I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to do that? These are aspects of our civil [01:52:00] society that I think are very important for us to gauge as we negotiate through life. And they are things that I’ve always -- I’ve always had the advantage of very, very, very wise people, I’ve thought, advising me, from my earliest years. Because I thought, if I had wanted to, I could have made my birth circumstance my justification for being a drunk on Solomon Street, and saying that it wasn’t my fault, it was my dad who didn’t stay with my mom, my mom who didn’t stay with me. And I could have made up all kinds of reasons why I had failed in life, and I chose not to. WALKER-HARPS: What do you consider your [01:53:00] most valuable -- what would you consider your most important achievement? And I know there may not be just one, and it also may not be just one area. WARD: I think, as I look back in the totality of my life, I think surviving the first and second grade, and the way in which I survived the first and second grade, was a testament to -- not me, but people who saw in me a worthy investment of their time and counsel. I’ve been very, very blessed with [01:54:00] people who have given me the benefit of their insights on life, and it started here. My most important learning took place here in Griffin. It was expanded by my experiences around the world. Almost 200 trips to Africa alone, for example. But my most important years of learning about life occurred here, and it was with people who were not the richest, not the smartest, but in many cases, the wisest people that I’ve run into. The greatest satisfactions were the early years here. I was prepared. I never blamed the world [01:55:00] for my circumstance, and I’ve challenged the world and a lot of its suppositions and attitudes. And I think the ability to do that I can see in different people. C. Eric Lincoln, for example, at Clark College. WALKER-HARPS: Oh, yeah. (inaudible) teacher. WARD: Was a huge influence -- WALKER-HARPS: He was great. WARD: -- in my life. He’s the one who told me I had to go to Africa. James P. Brawley, who was of huge import. Benjamin Mays, who was not my president, but I looked up to him. These were people -- James H. Robinson, who started Crossroads. Huge, huge influence on my life. Mandela. Martin Luther King. I [01:56:00] could see in them examples of conviction that were very, very important. And my wife. Leah has been a very big inspiration. She has been a very courageous woman. We are very different. We come from very, very different social backgrounds. Her dad was a colonel at a time when there were no black colonels. She was born on a military base. But for her to have withstood the slings and arrows of being the first woman in so many different categories, and to have been so successful in doing [01:57:00] what she did, and to walk away from it and play a different role, I think, is going to be a very, very important lesson for other women. She is a very courageous woman. And I’m also proud of the way I’ve helped her as we have spent the last 20-some years together. We met in Griffin, (which is?) also a part of the Griffin legacy. WALKER-HARPS: At the post office. WARD: Yeah. (laughs) BAUSKE: The downtown one or the experiment one? WARD: No, the -- it’s actually the Rotary Club. (laughter) We’ve gone on. Those -- you’ve tolerated my musings. CUNNINGHAM: It’s been fascinating. WALKER-HARPS: I [01:58:00] did not know that you could sing. Were you inspired my Mr. Tucker, or you were not in the band with Mr. Tucker? WARD: I was with Mr. Tucker. That was -- I could have listed Rufus Tucker as one of the inspirations in my life. BAUSKE: Miss Jewell, has he covered the period you wanted covered? WALKER-HARPS: Basically. You have -- one of the questions that you might be able to answer me now. You left Griffin, but during that same period of time, we had a few professional persons other than those you’ve named, like doctors, or -- particularly doctors. I don’t know if there were other professional people here in our community other than the teachers and the principals. WARD: I’m told that Dr. [01:59:00] (Blanton?) was actually distantly related to me, and he was my doctor. In fact, he used to (want?) -- when I was born, I didn’t have a birth certificate, and he had to certify my birth later on when I needed a birth certificate for getting a passport. Dr. -- what’s his name, you mentioned him -- lived out on my street. WALKER-HARPS: Dr. (Atkinson?)? WARD: Dr. Atkinson I did know. Dr. Atkinson was a dentist here. He lived on our street further down. He lived on Solomon Street. His wife was a second grade teacher here. Very dignified person. And he died early, as I recall. Now, I left Griffin in 1959. The real civil rights work in Griffin occurred [02:00:00] after that. In fact, some years after that, in terms of activity. And Dr. -- Reverend Shropshire was one of the leading figures in that period. CUNNINGHAM: How do you spell his name? WARD: S-H-R-O-P-S-H-I-R-E. CUNNINGHAM: Okay. S-H--? WARD: R-O-P-S-H-I-R-E. His son James Maynard is still alive. We were classmates at Clark. He was a year behind me, but we went to Clark together. The first black policeman, Marvin, was in my class. B. J. was a year or so ahead of me, B. J. Jackson. B. J. died. B. J. lived on Solomon Street. Marvin lived on Taylor Street, Marvin Barrow. Marvin lived on Taylor Street. And then Reese Colbert. Reese was in my -- and they were the first three black... The interesting [02:01:00] thing about the first black policemen in this town, they could not arrest whites, and that was the same in Atlanta. WALKER-HARPS: Yes, I remember. WARD: When the first -- the first black policemen in Atlanta could not arrest. And the interesting thing about that, as well, is that a lot of blacks didn’t think that they were real police, so they didn’t want to arrest them, either. So that was not an easy -- you can’t arrest me. You can’t arrest me. They wanted only white policemen to arrest (me?). But that was a difficult -- I’m not sure that I would have taken that job at that time. I think the other people, other than Reverend Shropshire -- Reverend Epps had already left [02:02:00] here. Reverend Epps became significant in the north Georgia district of the United Methodist Church. But Raymond was, I’d say, probably the closest thing -- Raymond had a difficult role, because not only was he the first black on the council, he had a mediating role of troubleshooting. And when the Klan came, they came to his shop. When they wanted to take out grievances on blacks, they came to Raymond’s place. He didn’t have unified black support. But he was, in my judgement, a very sober [02:03:00] and solid citizen, and I always had great respect for him, for each of them. And the third brother is still alive. (You ought to?) talk to him. He’s a great -- they were -- I always liked them, Raymond and Phillip and Otis. I interviewed both of them in that TV program. WALKER-HARPS: Yeah, I’ve spoken to Phillip about coming, but he’s not going to do an interview. He’s going to leave that to (Cheryl?). Cheryl is his niece, and she’s going to take his place. But Raymond wasn’t available. We cannot underplay the role that Raymond played, because he was really prominent during that most turbulent period. And you’re right, he was a mediator. He worked with -- what was it -- the human relations, or that biracial group, that was [02:04:00] so sobering for the community at that time. WARD: Raymond was a very, very solid person. He was -- I always thought he had very good judgement. And you could count on him. If he said he was going to do something, he would do it. WALKER-HARPS: We did not -- and perhaps we won’t, now -- but Raymond and those persons who sit in political offices now are all there as a result mainly (of?) a political change that occurred after the NAACP filed a lawsuit that outlawed at-large voting to a single member [02:05:00] district. (I guess you were?) gone at that time, too. Yeah. You were gone. But we -- it’s one of the areas that we don’t want to ever leave out. We want to pass on the significance to our children, because the people who are sitting now in offices, who maintain positions, have no clue as to the shoulders upon which they rest, and the turmoils that came about during that time, just as we don’t want to overlook the period of time when we were trying to consolidate the governments, when you worked so hard -- (inaudible) me, too, I guess, because I was put out there on a limb, to get the city and county consolidated. And it didn’t happen, and has not as of this point happened. It creeps up in conversations once in a while. So I’m sure the issue [02:06:00] will come back. WARD: When I was in college, I majored in psychology and English. And my major professor was Wiley Bolden. Wiley Bolden’s father was the leader in breaking down the at-large voting system in Mobile, Alabama, and was a very important person in Alabama politics as a result of that. One of the big issues in the consolidation program here -- effort -- was related to the participation in the governance structure. Griffin has now a majority African American population in the city lines, and substantially less than a majority in the county wide. There were [02:07:00] some things that were important in the consideration of the governance structure, and many of them had to do with code issues. For example, out in my property in the county, I could have cows and chickens, and shoot my gun if I wanted to. I remember in 1947 or ’48, the city of Griffin passed an ordinance that you couldn’t have chickens (in the?) city. We used to have chickens right there on Solomon Street. We used to have pigs here. And they outlawed that, ’47 or ’48, somewhere around that. So there are certain kinds of lifestyle [02:08:00] issues that are more important in the county than they are in the city, and I recognized that, when we were going through this, that they mattered a lot. Who was going to be the police chief, who was going to be the law enforcement chief, was an important issue. (And that?) always is. Who was going to be in charge of the government, the final power position, was important. The county is really too small to have two separate functioning governing units in it. And at some point -- and I don’t know if race is the overarching issue. It was an important issue. It was more important, I think, [02:09:00] in terms of the representation of African Americans in a consolidated government, and it would have had to be worked out. But eventually -- we have 159 counties. There’s too many counties. And we don’t need that many counties. What we need to be doing is consolidating some of the counties, not just the internal consolidation, but the consolidation of some of these units. Some of them are very small, throughout the state. But if you deal with politics, once somebody gets in power, you start having to deal with that reality, and so it’s very difficult to deal with it. Race is an interesting element in the whole equation. I think that -- my wife, for example, [02:10:00] demonstrates that you run statewide. And even though she’s a judge, and judges have a sort of built in advantage, an African American woman running statewide in Georgia is still an African American woman running statewide in Georgia. And that she won three or four times statewide is a significant indicator that if you got the right kind of person, with the right kind of appeal across different kinds of sectors -- I think that Georgia is probably moving in a direction. Somebody will get smart enough. Somebody will get smart enough to know how to have appeal, and it’s going to take push, and it’s going to take appeal. (inaudible) push, and then somebody’s going to come (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). WALKER-HARPS: [02:31:00] Perhaps one day it will. Anyway, we’re going to have to stop. WARD: You guys are going to push, and the all of a sudden, somebody’s going to pop up. And they’ll take care of... WALKER-HARPS: Okay. We’re going to have to stop. It’s the end of the workday for some of us, anyway. Is there any last word that you would like to leave with us before we say our thank-yous? WARD: No, I thank you, Jewell. It is not a thankless job. I do thank you. WALKER-HARPS: Well, thank you, and thank you for always being there and having my back, and answering my needs when I have those, that I know that I can call you (and?) you will answer, and that’s needed. Last year was a pretty rough year. And I almost called on you (two?) [02:32:00] again, but I didn’t. But anyway, we got through it, and we’re here, and we want to stay thanks to UGA and my partners in crime who are always so willingly to say, yes, we will help, or we will assist, or we will take it over, or whatever needs be. We deeply appreciate you. We’re going to look at what you said. It may be that we will ask you to come back, and maybe -- we certainly want to (inaudible) see some of the documents that we will probably want to scan. But on behalf of myself and the NAACP, we say thank you for taking the time out to come and participate. Are there anything -- are there other things that we need to say? BAUSKE: Thank you. CRUICKSHANK: Thank you very much. CUNNINGHAM: Yeah, very much. END OF AUDIO FILE
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RBRL418GAA-010.xml
RBRL418GAA-010.xml
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133 minutes
Location
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Griffin, Georgia
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Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
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Interview with Haskell Ward, March 22, 2017
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RBRL418GAA-010
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Haskell Ward
Jewel Walker-Harps
Be-Atrice Cunningham
John Cruickshank
Ellen Bauske
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audio
oral histories
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Griffin, Georgia
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sound
Subject
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Segregation
Public housing
State governments--Officials and employees
Civil rights
Judges--United States
United States--Civil rights
Politics and Public Policy
African American politicians
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2017-03-22
Description
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Born in 1940, Haskell Ward grew up in the segregated Griffin, Georgia. Throughout his childhood, Ward was encouraged by peers and friends to attain an education. Ward has held a multitude of positions throughout his life including working as Peace Corps volunteer, Africa Advisor to the Secretary of State, and judge in Griffin. In this interview, Ward talks about his work in Africa and the United States, his experience during the Civil Rights Movement, and his reflections on the state of Griffin.
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Griffin African American Oral History Project
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Georgia--History, Local
African Americans--History
Georgia--Communities
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The Griffin African American Oral History Project is a collaboration between the Griffin Branch NAACP, the Griffin Campus Library of the University of Georgia, and the Richard B. Russell Library. The seed was planted in the meetings of the Educational Prosperity Initiative which is also chaired by the president of the Griffin Branch NAACP, Jewel Walker-Harps. Collaborators on the project include: Griffin Housing Authority; Spalding County Collaborative; Fairmont Alumni Association; University of Georgia—Athens and Griffin campuses; and the Educational Prosperity Initiative, which is an affiliate of the Spalding County Collaborative and others. Interviewers on the project include: John Cruickshank, librarian at UGA-Griffin Campus Library; Jewel Walker-Harps, President of the Griffin, GA Branch of the NAACP; Art Cain, coordinator of Continuing Education for UGA-Griffin; Be-Atrice Cunningham, project manager for College of Agricultural and Environmental Science for Griffin; and Ellen Bauske, senior public service associate at the Georgia Center for Urban Agriculture in Griffin. Rich Braman was the sound engineer for this project. <br />The Griffin African American Oral History Project intends to document the experiences of people who lived in Fairmont Community in Griffin, Georgia during the civil rights era and through its transformation to the present day.<br /><br />All interviews in this collection have been indexed in OHMS.
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Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Publisher
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Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Date
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2015-2018
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http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
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Oral histories
Identifier
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RBRL418GAA
Coverage
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Griffin, Georgia
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
OHMS Object Text
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5.4 2019-04-23 Interview with Harvey Pilkenton, April 23, 2019 RBRL418GAA-023 58 minutes RBRL418GAA Griffin African American Oral History Project Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies, University of Georgia Harvey Pilkenton Be-Atrice Cunningham Jewel Walker-Harps John Cruickshank 1:|30(13)|47(1)|60(15)|80(4)|96(14)|118(2)|144(3)|164(9)|185(2)|203(11)|248(7)|283(13)|315(12)|360(9)|379(2)|393(2)|425(5)|441(4)|474(12)|507(4)|535(1)|553(9)|566(8)|577(12)|592(2)|607(3)|639(11)|653(13)|670(3)|681(3)|703(6)|704(1)|724(9)|752(9)|770(11)|801(3)|822(11)|835(3)|852(10)|867(8)|888(3)|900(3)|924(7)|946(1)|959(10)|968(9)|983(10)|997(4)|1040(7)|1066(1)|1080(5)|1096(10)|1112(6)|1135(1)|1161(8)|1172(13)|1201(11) 0 Kaltura audio < ; iframe id=" ; kaltura_player" ; src=" ; https://cdnapisec.kaltura.com/p/1727411/sp/172741100/embedIframeJs/uiconf_id/26879422/partner_id/1727411?iframeembed=true& ; playerId=kaltura_player& ; entry_id=1_tfmjufil& ; flashvars[localizationCode]=en& ; amp ; flashvars[leadWithHTML5]=true& ; amp ; flashvars[sideBarContainer.plugin]=true& ; amp ; flashvars[sideBarContainer.position]=left& ; amp ; flashvars[sideBarContainer.clickToClose]=true& ; amp ; flashvars[chapters.plugin]=true& ; amp ; flashvars[chapters.layout]=vertical& ; amp ; flashvars[chapters.thumbnailRotator]=false& ; amp ; flashvars[streamSelector.plugin]=true& ; amp ; flashvars[EmbedPlayer.SpinnerTarget]=videoHolder& ; amp ; flashvars[dualScreen.plugin]=true& ; amp ; flashvars[Kaltura.addCrossoriginToIframe]=true& ; amp ; & ; wid=1_xu5bhtms" ; width=" ; 400" ; height=" ; 285" ; allowfullscreen webkitallowfullscreen mozAllowFullScreen allow=" ; autoplay * ; fullscreen * ; encrypted-media *" ; sandbox=" ; allow-forms allow-same-origin allow-scripts allow-top-navigation allow-pointer-lock allow-popups allow-modals allow-orientation-lock allow-popups-to-escape-sandbox allow-presentation allow-top-navigation-by-user-activation" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; title=" ; Kaltura Player" ; > ; < ; /iframe> ; 42 Growing up in Griffin, Georgia Harvey Pikenton 1955 in Griffin, Georgia... Pilkenton talks about growing up in the rural areas of Griffin, Georgia, as the child of a disabled veteran and cotton mill worker during the 1950's. Pilkenton explains that much of the life around Griffin was centered around working for the cotton mills, and describes the situation as being akin to slavery. construction ; cotton mill ; Griffin, Georgia 478 Griffin Housing Authority / Education integration Your life, in early childhood ... Pilkenton talks about how his experience with the cotton mill-owned housing of his childhood has inspired his work in the Griffin Housing Authority. Pilkenton describes the legal segregation of his childhood community. Pinkenton details the integration of public schools during the 1960's. Biracial Committee ; Fairmount High School ; Griffin Housing Authority ; Griffin, Georgia ; integration ; projects 948 Race-related interactions We did have even before that ... Pikenton talks about racial inequalities he witnessed while in the workforce. Pinkenton relates an occurrence he witnessed as the dishwater at a restaurant. Pinkenton shares his racial take on the work he did throughout his life. Pinkenton describes the work he did as a young man to procure wealth. Cotton Mills ; integration 1428 Griffin Housing Authority And I can say, Griffin's been good... Pinkerton talks about his work in the Griffin Housing Authority and the reason behind his decision to choose Bob Dull as the chief executive of the Griffin Housing Authority. Bob Dull ; Griffin Housing Authority ; Meriwether Homes 1826 Career path reflections I would have to say that I... Pikenton talks about the fact that he faced few obstructions to get to the position that he has today. He explains how saving has helped him throughout the years. Pinkenton shares some stories about his family's work in the moonshine business and talks about the benefits made through the Griffin Housing Authority's education initiatives. Griffin Housing Authority ; Griffin Technical Institute ; moonshine 2285 Experiences in the Griffin Housing Authority But it don't seem that way ... Pinkenton about his take on the fact that many tenants have become dependent on the resources offered through the Griffin Housing Authority. Pinkenton talks about the racial makeup of tenants he interacts with through his work with the Griffin Housing Authority. Griffin Housing Authority ; Griffin, Georgia ; Section 8 2704 Addressing substandard housing What do you suggest that we can ... Pilkenton talks about efforts that can be made in the Griffin Housing Authority to remedy the provision of substandard housing around the Griffin Housing Authority. Griffin Housing Authority ; landlord ; regulations ; substandard housing 3144 Substandard housing (cont.) / Concluding thoughts Have you done a lot of that ? Pilkenton talks about some of the difficulties that come with demolishing or repurposing substandard housing. Pilkenton explains the process of addressing substandard housing provision from private landlords. private landlords ; substandard housing Oral history RBRL418GAA-023_Pilkington BE-ATRICE CUNNNINGHAM:--nningham, and I' ; m joined by -- JEWEL WALKER-HARPS:Jewel Walker-Harps, president of the Griffin Branch NAACP, and part of this oral history project. JOHN CRUICKSHANK:John Cruickshank, librarian, Griffin campus, University of Georgia. CUNNINGHAM:And today we' ; re speaking with Mr. Harvey (Pinkleton?) at the University of Georgia, Griffin campus in Griffin, Georgia, and we' ; re conducting this interview as part of the Griffin African American oral history project. So thank you Mr. Pilkenton -- am I pronouncing it right? HARVEY PILKENTON:Pilkenton. CUNNINGHAM:Pilkenton. Thank you for being here today to share your story. So if you can just start off, for the record, by stating your name, your birth year, and your birthplace. PILKENTON:Harvey Pilkenton, 1955, and Griffin, Georgia. CUNNINGHAM:Great. So we just want to start off, and if you could tell us a little bit about your early childhood. PILKENTON:Okay. I really don' ; t know where to start. CUNNINGHAM:Okay -- PILKENTON:But like I say, I was born in Griffin, Georgia, and we lived on the west side of Griffin out in the rural areas. My daddy was a disabled veteran, and my mother worked in the cotton mills. Raised 10 kids, two of them actually deceased young. CUNNINGHAM:Okay. PILKENTON:So she raised eight kids, and I was the youngest of them. So it was just across the highway, what was referred to as (Aiken?) subdivision. Where I was raised was right behind where Walmart is now. We were considered, you know, looking back, we were poor. But happy and didn' ; t know it. CUNNINGHAM:Mm-hmm? PILKENTON:Like I said, daddy was disabled, so he had a lot of medical problems and stuff. But we -- you know, we done okay. We didn' ; t know that we were poor. And I remember finding out we were poor, actually, it was in grammar school. We brought canned goods to school to take to the poor family. CUNNINGHAM:Right? PILKENTON:And I brought -- and got home, it was on my porch. So I was ashamed to go back to school. Now you all done told me I was poor! (laughter) So but anyway, everything was fine. We had a four-room house with a lot of kids there. Finally added an indoor bathroom to it, and like I say, didn' ; t have any problems with any of that. And I don' ; t -- didn' ; t have any childhood regrets or problems that I even remember. No -- but then when I got about 13, I went to work. And it was, like I said, it was kind of my destiny to -- at the time, you felt that it was your destiny to quit school when you were 16 and go to work at the cotton mill, because that' ; s what mom did, and all your brothers, and everybody else did. So I was lucky that I never did that. Because once you get -- back then, if you ever got to working in a mill and you made what they considered a prime salary for this area and you got your bills and things set under that amount of monies, then you kind of were trapped there. CUNNINGHAM:Hmm-mm. PILKENTON:So I never went to work in the mill. I went to work just washing dishes and different things, but saved monies, and finally, you know, just done okay for myself, just buy myself a car, and got 16 years old, got married and had a baby. CUNNINGHAM:Okay. PILKENTON:You know, and I don' ; t really know what direction you want me to talk about today. Anything specific you want me to tell you about, or --? CUNNINGHAM:Well, let' ; s go back a little bit. So were your parents also from Griffin? And did they tell you anything about what life was like for them? PILKENTON:Well, you know, when I say they were from Griffin, they were from right around, like maybe Meriwether County and not in the suburbs, so right around Griffin, sure. CUNNINGHAM:Sure. PILKENTON:Mm-hmm. Well, I mean, it' ; s stuff like making liquor, trying to do the best you can to survive, type stories, you know, that -- of course, mama just always worked in the mill, far as I ever knew. But, you know, daddy would do different things. And way back before my day, you know, it was things like making liquor and carrying sugary down the creek to the stills, and stories like that. But it was never in my lifetime. CUNNINGHAM:Okay. So you mentioned that you considered yourself poor, but you didn' ; t realize that until they brought the groceries to your yard. Can you provide us with some type of visual tour of what you thought Griffin was like, outside of just your community? What do you think the community was like? PILKENTON:Well, it felt like that everybody worked for, and was kind of enslaved to the mills. CUNNINGHAM:Okay. PILKENTON:Because all my aunts and uncles lived in the surrounding mill villages. We did not. We lived just outside, but in a house the same, or less. But it was not in the mill village. And all of them had originally rented the homes from the mills. CUNNINGHAM:Mmm? PILKENTON:And they did not have bathrooms. I think -- the story that I understood is that some agencies, governments, whatever, finally came in and kind of demanded or mandated them to sell homes to the tenants, and to add bathrooms to them. So, you know, it felt like to me that even though the mill' ; s important, we didn' ; t want to do without them. We had to have them, it felt. But it felt a little bit like slavery, like, you know, we worked for and under the mills. CUNNINGHAM:Right. PILKENTON:And like I say, I' ; m glad that I never did go to work there, because I' ; m afraid that I' ; d have been stuck there. WALKER-HARPS:Was that in your mind at the time? PILKENTON:Always. WALKER-HARPS:Mm-hmm? PILKENTON:Yep, you know, it was getting close to getting 16, and you' ; ve got to quit school and you get to go to work, at the mill. So I was glad to just get a taste of another world, just out working in the restaurants and stuff like that. CUNNINGHAM:Mm-hmm? PILKENTON:And that' ; s when, you know, I did meet some guys that are in construction at the restaurants that I worked for, and got introduced to the construction business, to the construction world at the time. CUNNINGHAM:Mm-hmm? PILKENTON:And so I quit that and went to work for them, and different ones, and kind of learned a lot about construction. And by the time I was 18 years old, I was self-employed and in the construction business. Griffin has been good to me. So I don' ; t have sad stories to tell you. CUNNINGHAM:Mm-hmm? PILKENTON:Just reality, you know, the way it was. But they were not sad or bad times to me, at the time. Looking back, it may sound that way, but it wasn' ; t. CUNNINGHAM:Right. PILKENTON:So you know, I didn' ; t -- Griffin, like I say, has been good to me. I' ; ve done a lot of business in Griffin, and I feel a debt to Griffin, just like right now, I' ; m serving on the Griffin Housing Authority. I want to get off sometimes, just because it' ; s time-consuming, but at the same time, I owe a debt back to the community that' ; s been good to me. And so I' ; ve been involved with a lot of different areas, you know, different boards and planning and zoning, and Board of Appeals and Development Authority and now the Housing Authority, just because I feel a debt back to the community. CUNNINGHAM:Okay. WALKER-HARPS:Your life, your early childhood and your life, and what you experienced, does that have any -- well, do that have any -- what does -- did that have any impact on your attitude toward housing today? Does that make you push, knowing that all around you were houses in the mill village, and typical of a mill village? So when you became grown and you got on the Housing Authority, did any of that -- PILKENTON:Well, it' ; s had a lot of impact on me. I' ; ve been really an advocate of the Housing Authority, and upgrading the housing, minimal housing in Griffin, and tearing down houses that people live in. If you let them exist, people will live in them. WALKER-HARPS:Yes. PILKENTON:So we' ; re trying to get those done, and been -- in our memory as a kid, going by the apartments that I was just a part of tearing down -- back then we called them the " ; projects." ; CUNNINGHAM:Mm-hmm? PILKENTON:And, you know, you go by then, (inaudible), I wish we could live there. CUNNINGHAM:Hmm-mm. PILKENTON:So today, as you know, I' ; m chairman of the Housing Authority, and we just tore them down rebuilt them and upgraded them. CUNNINGHAM:Mm-hmm? PILKENTON:And they are nice units that we just built. And this -- I am really proud to see people live in them and enjoy an upgraded home. And I think the best thing that you can do for any person is to upgrade them, such as offer education, jobs and housing, those are the three main components. You know, I guess I learned the hard way, and I didn' ; t have anybody give me anything. But at the same time, I like making it available for people to have an opportunity to upgrade themselves. WALKER-HARPS:Now the what we call " ; Sunshine Apartments," ; I don' ; t know if that' ; s the original name, or -- in Fairmount. Fairmount was in the black neighborhood, so that was strictly -- was it legally segregated? Or people just happened to live -- or choose to live -- PILKENTON:No, I think they were originally built to be segregated. WALKER-HARPS:Okay. PILKENTON:Whites and blacks. WALKER-HARPS:Fairmount was black. PILKENTON:Mm-hmm. WALKER-HARPS:And Sunshine wasn' ; t. There was a name for it other than " ; Sunshine," ; I think, I just don' ; t remember what it was. PILKENTON:That' ; s the only name I know was the projects, or Sunshine. WALKER-HARPS:Well, maybe it was Sunshine. Maybe it was. Why was it " ; Sunshine?" ; Don' ; t know? PILKENTON:Don' ; t know. Hmm-mm. WALKER-HARPS:And they were -- okay, what was really different about them? Or was there anything different, other than the fact that they were inhabited by different races of people? PILKENTON:Well, I mean, today, if you ask me my opinion today, but my opinions in those days were different. WALKER-HARPS:Mm-hmm? PILKENTON:Because I never even know Fairmount was over there. CUNNINGHAM:Mm-hmm? WALKER-HARPS:Oh, okay. PILKENTON:And I didn' ; t know it until the school were integrated with my kids. CUNNINGHAM:Hmm. WALKER-HARPS:Really? PILKENTON:And so then I took my sons to Fairmount to grammar school. WALKER-HARPS:Okay. PILKENTON:Well, I mean, it had integrated when I was in school, but it was -- I was in middle schools. WALKER-HARPS:Mm-hmm? PILKENTON:So I didn' ; t know Fairmount, and the segregation of that wasn' ; t obvious to me. WALKER-HARPS:Mm-hmm. You lived basically in an all-white world. PILKENTON:Sounds like it, don' ; t it? WALKER-HARPS:Mm-hmm. CUNNINGHAM:But you did mention the integration there in the middle school. PILKENTON:Well, when I was in the eighth grade, schools were integrated. And they took the high schools, the black high school, wherever that was, and brought it to our school, and whites to that school -- CUNNINGHAM:Okay. PILKENTON:-- and integrated them. And I was in eighth grade at that time. CUNNINGHAM:What was the climate like? The racial climate during that? PILKENTON:It was a lot of tension. CUNNINGHAM:Okay. PILKENTON:A lot of tension in -- and it wasn' ; t so much that they were black, it' ; s the fact that I was white. You know, it' ; s the tension, they were -- the blacks at that time were kind of gangs, you know, they walked together and stayed together, and the whites did not in our schools at that time. And so, you know, it was just fear of that, what' ; s going to happen because of the integration. But because of the black or the white. It' ; s just the fact that were going through this era, and how we' ; re going to get through this. CRUICKSHANK:So when integration took place, whites actually went to the Fairmount School, or they just went to a different place, did they? PILKENTON:Different grades, you know, some -- these -- my high school was, like, the eighth and ninth now. CRUICKSHANK:Mm-hmm? PILKENTON:And then the high schools was where the Griffin High -- WALKER-HARPS:Yeah, when they fully integrated -- PILKENTON:Mm-hmm. WALKER-HARPS:-- they did not necessarily -- they integrated grade levels more so than schools. All seventh graders had to go to unit one. PILKENTON:Mm-hmm. WALKER-HARPS:All eighth graded doing it two. All ninth graders had to go -- whatever. PILKENTON:That' ; s right. WALKER-HARPS:Unit three. Yes. PILKENTON:I thought the only people who ever went to Fairmount High were African Americans. But there were whites there as well? WALKER-HARPS:Oh, yeah. Yeah. PILKENTON:There were whites there too? WALKER-HARPS:Yes. PILKENTON:Oh, okay. WALKER-HARPS:But now if I recall, I' ; m not sure -- it wasn' ; t called " ; Fairmount." ; They changed the names also, as I said. Unit one, two, and three. And then your high schools. And you had only one high school. That was probably one of the things that made it as easy as it did. People did not have a choice. PILKENTON:Mm-hmm? WALKER-HARPS:If you were a seventh grader, as somebody said when they came in here and did an interview, if you were a seventh grader, you didn' ; t have a choice but to go to unit one, which we know as -- knew as " ; Fairmount." ; PILKENTON:Mm-hmm. WALKER-HARPS:Yeah. That was Fairmount to us. But you didn' ; t have to go to Fairmount, so to speak. When you tell your story, it wasn' ; t Fairmount that you went to in the seventh grade, it was unit one. CUNNINGHAM:Mm-hmm. CRUICKSHANK:So there were white people that had to go to the Fairmount School? WALKER-HARPS:Yes. CRUICKSHANK:Okay. WALKER-HARPS:If you went to school -- CRUICKSHANK:They didn' ; t have a choice. WALKER-HARPS:-- a public school, and you didn' ; t -- because there was no other public school. CRUICKSHANK:But you didn' ; t go to the Fairmount, though. PILKENTON:No. I went right here, what they called at the time it was a junior high school. And that' ; s when I was in the eighth grade. And I did go to the ninth grade, and then I did quit school and get my GED. So there wasn' ; t very much of that. But you know, and they -- as I kind of suggested, there might be a problem, there never was. CRUICKSHANK:Mm-hmm? PILKENTON:Around me. So it just wasn' ; t a problem for my perspective of integration. I' ; m sure you' ; ve had other interviews with different opinions and different thoughts on that, but it never was with me. WALKER-HARPS:Well, system-wide, we were told in interviews that integration here went fairly smoothly -- PILKENTON:Okay. WALKER-HARPS:-- and that was because of the biracial committee that was formed, and made sure of that, they stayed as calm as possible. The Crossfields and (inaudible), and others who -- Vera (Stenson?) and others who were part of that committee, they shared that things remained as calm as they did. But, well, we fully integrated, prior to that time, there were persons pulled from -- and mostly pulled from black schools and sent to the white schools, what they considered to be the better of the teachers were pulled from the black schools and placed in white schools. This was token integration. And even with the students, there were students that we -- remember we had the young man who came in and talked about -- he was picked to be one of those students and went to a white school. PILKENTON:Mm-hmm. We did have, even before that final integration time, we did have two or three blacks in our schools. So it wasn' ; t just none. WALKER-HARPS:And they were picked. They didn' ; t just volunteer to go. I mean -- PILKENTON:But I don' ; t remember it ever being a problem. WALKER-HARPS:-- it wasn' ; t open to everybody. It was -- they were specific children who were asked to transfer, specific teachers who were asked to transfer. PILKENTON:There' ; s a -- WALKER-HARPS:What were you? You were a West Griffin -- were you at the West Griffin school of -- PILKENTON:No, right here behind the water works. PILKENTON:Okay. Okay, that would have been -- PILKENTON:We called it junior high at the time. PILKENTON:Okay, yeah, junior high, they had a student -- they did have a junior high school. And then one high school integrated in Fairmount, with Griffin High. Made a compromise. I don' ; t remember exactly. They compromised the colors and compromised the mascot -- PILKENTON:Yeah, the Eagles and the Bears. WALKER-HARPS:Mm-hmm. PILKENTON:Mm-hmm. The Bears was the black mascot, and we took the Bears and gave up the Eagles, yeah. WALKER-HARPS:Mm-hmm. Yeah. CUNNINGHAM:Well, it sounds like you entered the workforce pretty early, you said at age 13. PILKENTON:Mm-hmm. CUNNINGHAM:So when you entered the workforce, did you notice or observe any racial inequalities, even in the workplace? PILKENTON:One time it was bad. It was a restaurant on the north side of town. It was a chain restaurant. It wasn' ; t just a mom and pop thing, it was a chain restaurant. And I was a dishwasher, and they hired a black waitress. Great lady, no problems, no problems. And then one day a man came in that did not want a black lady waiting on him, and it was ugly. It was bad. So it broke her heart, and everybody' ; s. But got him out of there, and I haven' ; t seen anything like that before or since, you know. But he just was adamant, wasn' ; t going to wait on him. So other than that, I don' ; t remember. The things -- the movies that you see on TV and all, I was never around any of that right here in Griffin, Georgia, other than that one incident. CRUICKSHANK:What happened? There wasn' ; t any violence or fist fights or anything, were there? You just -- PILKENTON:No, just got -- needed killing. He was actually a Ku Klux man. CRUICKSHANK:Oh, yeah? PILKENTON:Mm-hmm. WALKER-HARPS:Yeah, the Ku Klux Klan was very visible around here. PILKENTON:And this guy was. WALKER-HARPS:Mm-hmm. PILKENTON:And I know she sat the water down, and he just slapped his table, and the water and the dishes went everywhere. CRUICKSHANK:Mm-hmm? PILKENTON:And he just said, you know, " ; You' ; re not going to wait on me," ; and caused a big scene, you know? And there wasn' ; t anything her nor me or nobody else could do about him. CRUICKSHANK:Mm-hmm? PILKENTON:But then it was finally over and he was gone. She continued to work there. It didn' ; t run her off. CUNNINGHAM:It sounds like somebody stood up, though, and had something to say, if you said the man was escorted from the restaurant, basically. PILKENTON:Yeah. And I don' ; t know about how he got gone, but he did get gone. But, you know, I remember the rest of us employees, she was the only black lady that worked there, and we supported her. CUNNINGHAM:Okay. PILKENTON:And you know, we couldn' ; t apologize for him, but we could apologize for the way things were. WALKER-HARPS:Would you say that because were you rural, you lived in a rural area, that you were less exposed to racial tensions -- PILKENTON:Yes. WALKER-HARPS:-- than you would if you lived -- PILKENTON:That' ; s exactly right, yes, ma' ; am. WALKER-HARPS:-- in a city. PILKENTON:We were just out a little bit away from city life, I guess. Now they were, obvious to us and everybody, you knew where the black area was and the white area was. WALKER-HARPS:Mm-hmm? PILKENTON:But, you know -- WALKER-HARPS:But everybody respected that. PILKENTON:Sure. No, but we had some different people that would work with us and would go in black areas. And it wasn' ; t like fear of that, not at night. CUNNINGHAM:Hmm-mm. WALKER-HARPS:Hmm-mm. PILKENTON:Not because they were black, because I was white. CUNNINGHAM:Mm-hmm? PILKENTON:But it never had the reason or opportunity to do it anyway, so it just wasn' ; t a problem. WALKER-HARPS:Were there African Americans in the mills working at that time? Or, if I remember, when I first came to Griffin, the mills were basically all -- or basically white, except for Pomona Products was different. But the mills were, if I remember correctly. PILKENTON:I think so. But I say again, I never went into one. And it' ; s the best thing I ever done, was not going into one. WALKER-HARPS:So you had a pretty safe, protected -- PILKENTON:Racial life, sure did. Mm-hmm. WALKER-HARPS:Racial life. Yeah. CRUICKSHANK: But you hardly ever interacted with black people, did you? Growing up? PILKENTON:No. I mean, not growing up. But since in my construction world, a lot, sure. CRUICKSHANK:Mm-hmm? PILKENTON:And I' ; ve never had any kind of racial problems. You know, no more than I got disagreements with employees and subcontractors and all kinds of things. But it' ; s never been determined black or white. CRUICKSHANK:Mm-hmm. PILKENTON:You got it with both. I mean -- and I don' ; t know, I say again, I' ; ve been really successful in Griffin, Georgia, to have not had a formal educations and colleges and stuff. I did get a GED, and I remember when I went to work, up then I was saving every penny, just making less than a dollar an hour, and I finally got up to a dollar and a nickel an hour. But anyway, I saved $2,000 back there, and that was a lot of money. I put it in a bank. And when I got 16, I had to hide it from my family, you know, they would want that money. But I went to the bank and borrowed $2,000 against my $2,000. And then I waited 90 days and went down and just paid it back off, just to establish credit. What made me know to do that, I ain' ; t got a clue. CUNNINGHAM:Hmm-mm. PILKENTON:But then it did establish credit for me at 16 years old. And like I say, I went into construction around 17. And when I was 18 -- no, when I was 17, I went down and I bought a house. My first house. And it' ; s got to the closing at the bank, and they found out I was 17. You' ; ve got to be 18 to own a house in the State of Georgia. I had to go get my mama (laughter) and bring her to the bank to sign a note for me, to be on the deed. She didn' ; t even know I was buying a house. I was on my own at that young age to buy a house. You do what you got to do, so I went and got her. Closed to the house, you know, and I' ; ve sold my houses and build houses, and kind of grow from there. You know, I guess that' ; s a strange story to tell you, but I say that because there' ; s so many young kids in Griffin that have opportunity, and it ain' ; t just about having a college education. It' ; s about determination, and not to feel and to think that you are depressed, that you' ; ve got the opportunity if you take it. CUNNINGHAM:Mm-hmm. PILKENTON:And not just saying, you know, Griffin' ; s been good to me. I' ; m getting just about ready to retire, a few more houses, I' ; m in. WALKER-HARPS:Hmm-mm. You had an interesting life. Or you have an interesting life, which means that your early childhood has helped you become a giving, caring person, and a person who saw success where others could not have seen success, who were driven towards success. And that' ; s a part of your story that' ; s going to inspire some other young man, a young boy, who did not grow up with the stars in his hand, but grew up with the attitude and the feeling that if you reach for it hard enough, far enough, they could be yours. PILKENTON:I' ; ve had several people tell me that I was dead lucky. And I said, " ; Yes. The harder I worked, the luckier I get." ; CUNNINGHAM:Mm-hmm. WALKER-HARPS:Yeah. Now how do you assess the housing situation here today? And what would you suggest that we continue to do? I know you' ; re with the Housing Authority, and Bob Dull have made a tremendous turnaround with houses. We' ; d never dream that it would be this way. Matter of fact, you are a model. We often get calls from other areas requesting assistance or information, or demonstrations or what have you, because of what exists here. Kind of walk me through that. How did all this begin? Or were you with the Housing Authority before Bob came on board? PILKENTON:Mm-hmm. WALKER-HARPS:Oh, you were? PILKENTON:I was. And I was, you know, instrumental in hiring Bob. And we sat and interviewed several people when they came to apply for that job. And I kept telling the board that we needed somebody that would step out in the community, and be involved with the community. WALKER-HARPS:Mm-hmm. PILKENTON:Of course, I was in a learning state at that time too, I had been there only three, four years. And we did interview several qualified people. But to me, Bob was the one that stood out the most, that could present himself out in our community. And I hope it' ; s okay to say that Miss Eula didn' ; t want to hire him. WALKER-HARPS:Okay. PILKENTON:And she was kind of in opposition to me to hire Bob. WALKER-HARPS:What did she see in Bob at that time? PILKENTON:I' ; m going to leave that part out of the story. WALKER-HARPS:Okay. Okay. PILKENTON:Just -- you know, I just don' ; t want to involve somebody else. CUNNINGHAM:That' ; s fine. So what did you see? WALKER-HARPS:But what did you -- (laughs) PILKENTON:Well, I seen that Bob was the person to get out in the community and present himself, and to represent us and to move us forward one more step. CUNNINGHAM:Mm-hmm? PILKENTON:Because the Housing Authority was going through it had already came out of some really bad times and some bad -- WALKER-HARPS:Directors? PILKENTON:-- directors and just misdirections and confusions about what the Housing Authority even is. So that was over, and we' ; re growing past it. But now it' ; s time to move forward and step out more. And to me, Bob had it, the years of experience, with housing, anyway, and so his knowledge. But Bob' ; s not like me. He wouldn' ; t sit here and stutter through this. He' ; ll tell you -- he can present himself in front of public. Now, this is about as many as I can speak in front of. But that was what I wanted Bob to do. Today, we' ; re trying to get him to fall back a little bit. His, you know, his health a little bit, and he' ; s done what we directed him and requested him to do. And he' ; s got a lot of things and programs and things that we' ; ve all involved with, and got him operating. And now, so like you and I were talking about earlier, it' ; s time for him to delegate this person, you be in charge of and oversee this area, and let his staff take over some of it, and him be still in authority and director of us. But it' ; s time for him to step back some. And it' ; s hard to get him to. He' ; s a good guy. He wants to hands-on. WALKER-HARPS:Did he arrive in here, tell you his story, his background, the humanistic side of him, that perhaps created what we see in Bob Dull today. PILKENTON:Not during his application part, he did not. WALKER-HARPS:Okay, you didn' ; t know that then. PILKENTON:Now I do know a lot more of his history, and he knows a lot more of mine just from being a lot of years together. But it wasn' ; t so much, you know, the fact that he was raised in a house, in projects himself, and that type thing was not spoken at the application, job application times. But I know those things today. You know, we had already been involved with rebuilding Meriwether, and we got to a stumbling block that we couldn' ; t get over, as far as our authority. And Bob' ; s answers to some of the questions, letting me know that he was the one who could get us over this hump and make this happen. WALKER-HARPS:He broke the barrier, somehow, having lived in the deprived environment when he was young, to come up and achieve as much as he has achieved, and had to deal with the system of communities, as he has had to deal with. I' ; m sure it was typical of the strength that the man had internally. But now let me ask you this. How did you have barriers to break through? You came from, well, sort of a deprived environment, but you moved on up through the ranks. So did you have any -- did you encounter any tremendous barriers as you moved and interacted with the system, but particular with Griffin? Were the doors open for you to come in? Or were you treated differently, and you had to maneuver your way around? Were you accepted as an equal, I guess is what I' ; m saying? PILKENTON:Mm-hmm. I would have to say that I definitely was. You know, and some of my directions and roads that I went down to get to where I am today, I guess, I have manipulated some things, and presented myself to know more than I know. But I just don' ; t really know of any barriers other than, you know, I guess it would have helped me even more to have more education. WALKER-HARPS:Mm-hmm. PILKENTON:I know now, my daddy, I was saying earlier, was a disabled veteran, so I was able to go to Griffin Tech at the time, and took a night class of carpentry. And since I was working to support my family during the day. I had to do it at night, but I was being paid by the VA, a supplement, paid for the school, to where I could attend school at night to take carpentry class. But I don' ; t say that that really helped me that much. I don' ; t know that it forwarded my career that much, other than it was a good opportunity offered to me through the VA for a disabled veteran' ; s son. No, you know, I have to give a lot of credit to my wife, I guess, you know, because she obviously supported me. We saved our monies and we understood the principle that money saved -- a dollar saved is two dollars earned, you know? WALKER-HARPS:Mm-hmm. PILKENTON:So she' ; s been a penny pincher and coupon clipper, and it' ; s helped us manage our monies that we did make to be more than it actually was, because we didn' ; t go out and waste money. We kept our money. And then we put our monies to work for us several more years, and invested in our home, and then finally got our home paid for. Then after a lot of years of not having a mortgage payment, then you know you just grow more and more financially stable. I don' ; t know of any stumbling block to tell you that I ever hit, other than, you know, everybody wants it right now, and you can' ; t get it right now. You' ; ve got to work for it, and let it accumulate for you, and manage it properly. But I just don' ; t -- WALKER-HARPS:That' ; s a message in itself. CUNNINGHAM:Mm-hmm. PILKENTON:I just don' ; t know of anybody that said, " ; Harvey, you can' ; t do this." ; WALKER-HARPS:On a comical side, was moonshine a very prevalent business during that time? I ask that because I hear my husband talk about it often. PILKENTON:Yeah, it was, but, you know, I -- WALKER-HARPS:(inaudible), or (inaudible)-somebody. Oh, yeah, I hear, I hear -- PILKENTON:That' ; s a (inaudible), yeah. WALKER-HARPS:Yeah. I hear all sorts of stories about that kind of -- PILKENTON:Oh, I can tell you some moonshine stories without calling names. WALKER-HARPS:Mm-hmm. PILKENTON:Because they were people that I know. WALKER-HARPS:We' ; ve had somebody in here who did that, who talked about -- not names, but interesting tales. PILKENTON:Mm-hmm. Well my daddy, you know, he would definitely -- and my uncle. He drank it about as fast as they could make it, but (laughter) they were, like, out in the rural again. CUNNINGHAM:Mm-hmm? PILKENTON:And so more moonshine was made out rural than it was in the city, obviously. CUNNINGHAM:Yes. PILKENTON:You know, you got the creeks and different things in the woods, and the revenue agents. And I knew the revenue agents and stuff. They come up and bust them and blow up their stills. This one guy, a family, and back then the trucks had little running boards. CUNNINGHAM:Mm-hmm? PILKENTON:Old trucks. And the revenue agent got out to them and they run, and they got the truck, and they was in the truck, him and his brother. And the revenue agent jumped on the running board, stuck his pistol in the truck and shot Bob in the gut. And so the other brother driving the truck had to get him against a barbed wire fence to rake him off the truck. And so they spent more time in jail for the revenue agent than they did making liquor. (laughter) WALKER-HARPS:Yes, I can remember very well the revenue a-- everybody (inaudible) in rural areas would pass. But wherever I -- " ; Do you know the revenue was in here?" ; PILKENTON:Yeah. WALKER-HARPS:Revenue -- I wonder what -- and when I got grown, and I heard -- I saw the word written, I said, ooh, that' ; s what they were talking about, the revenue people, because they were making -- they weren' ; t paying taxes on there, it was not legal. PILKENTON:That' ; s right. Unbonded liquor. WALKER-HARPS:It wasn' ; t legal. PILKENTON:And a lot of people died. You know, they' ; d filter that moonshine through lead radiators. WALKER-HARPS:Mm-hmm. CUNNINGHAM:Mmm. PILKENTON:That' ; s dangerous stuff. WALKER-HARPS:White Lightning. PILKENTON:White lightning. WALKER-HARPS:I lived in the country. I had alcohol you run through the fields, dodging the revenue man. (laughter) Okay. Be-Atrice? CUNNINGHAM:Yeah. Earlier you mentioned that there were some programs that were established through the Housing Authority. What do you think has been the most impactful program that' ; s been established so far? PILKENTON:Well, education, prosperity, you know, where they happen -- with the education. And I don' ; t know the technicalities of the whole program. CUNNINGHAM:Sure. PILKENTON:You know, being just a director. But -- WALKER-HARPS:We got Bob' ; s heart, where it' ; s somewhat because of him. PILKENTON:Yeah, she can probably tell you more about how it was implemented and the success of it than I can, but making it available to him. Just education, and sometimes, you know, you just want to get more basic with him and talk forget the education for a minute -- CUNNINGHAM:Mm-hmm? PILKENTON:-- and just kind of try to encourage them to take your life and build it around what you do know, and learn as much as you can, and all. But then don' ; t expect a handout. Save and earn your own. You just kind of want to get him over here and just talk to them a minute. CUNNINGHAM:Mm-hmm? PILKENTON:But you know, I own a lot of rental property today, and I' ; ve got a lot of rental-assisted Section 8 homes. And I got blacks in them and I' ; ve got whites in them, and I don' ; t see any difference in the people that live in my Section 8 houses. But I have had some thoughts that the people that are living in them have come to depend on that. You know, you they don' ; t seem to be motivated anymore to get past that. And it' ; s -- to me, it' ; s something -- you need it at one time, I got you. And here it is for you. But then go ahead and save your monies with the opportunity that' ; s been presented to you financially, and save whatever you can and try to get past that and get independent. CUNNINGHAM:Mm-hmm. PILKENTON:But it don' ; t seem that way to me today. But I -- just two weeks ago, and I had a couple of different tenants call me and say they' ; ve been living in my house Section 8 10 years. And when they come out and inspect it, I say, okay, let' ; s go do this. I get out there, and this black lady is the best, well-kept rental house that I' ; ve ever had. And she was Section 8. So now that confused me more. Here she is, I was just kind of accusing her -- not her specific, but -- CUNNINGHAM:Right. PILKENTON:-- Section 8 tenant that they had become dependent and complacent. But this lady was proud of her home. And she kept it clean. So that kind of confused me, was, it was clean, well-kept, worn. And she wanted some new carpet. Ten years old, okay, you got some new carpet. What else you want, lady? If you' ; re going to keep my house this way. But see, I profited. And she' ; s good with it, and it' ; s a nice home. But I wish it was her home. So I don' ; t know how to differentiate that. CUNNINGHAM:Do you think there' ; s anything that we as a community can do to help alleviate that issue? Because right now we have a lot of -- PILKENTON:That issue is growing. It' ; s getting bigger and bigger and bigger every day. CUNNINGHAM:Right. Right. WALKER-HARPS:Well, would you like -- I would like to see more landlords require training programs -- participation and training programs, participation in self-preservation and all of those kinds of things. I don' ; t know, since they' ; re not government facilities, well, those that are, that still happens with the Housing Authority that' ; s encouraged and promoted, do you see a difference? You have private rentals, and then you know about the Housing Authority. PILKENTON:Mm-hmm. WALKER-HARPS:Is there a difference in the attitude of those who rent from the Housing Authority, and those who rent in the private sector toward self-improvement? PILKENTON:I don' ; t know that I could say that I' ; ve actually acknowledged or even tried to look at, is there any difference than that. But the Housing Authority and our apartments -- and I still sometime want to call them " ; projects," ; but I don' ; t like that so much, they are apartments and are homes -- we' ; re pretty strict on them. WALKER-HARPS:Yeah, I know. PILKENTON:We don' ; t allow loitering, and we don' ; t allow smoking. WALKER-HARPS:Mm-hmm. PILKENTON:And you can' ; t be late on your rent. And it' ; s -- in a lot of ways, it' ; s encouraging promptness and one notch higher quality, at least, grow today, at least one notch better. So we' ; re pretty strict on them. In a private world, I cannot monitor every one of my houses to that degree. CUNNINGHAM:Mm-hmm. PILKENTON:You know? We go out and if they called us like that lady did, and another lady did. And it was a white lady. And they -- one white and one black, and they were both -- the Section 8 tenants, not white or black, but the Section 8 tenants were as good as any tenant I' ; ve ever had, whether it was $1800 a month or $1,000 a month, or $800 a month, which is about their rent, $900 or so. And so it wasn' ; t -- not black and white at all, as far as being on Section 8, and -- but I would have to say, you know, I have noticed that even with the Housing Authority, we do have some whites in some of our units, but it is, in Griffin, Georgia, a higher percentage of black in our apartments. WALKER-HARPS:Is there a reason for that, do you think? PILKENTON:Yeah, I mean, I don' ; t know a specific reason to say, other than the evolution that we kind of have identified of, the mills were white. CUNNINGHAM:Mm-hmm? PILKENTON:And then the mill villages were white. Then these mill villages right across the street, right here now are -- well, I don' ; t want to say something I don' ; t know factual, but I would say that they are 80 percent black. CUNNINGHAM:Mm-hmm? PILKENTON:Then the other side of town toward East Griffin, the mill villages there are -- that were white are now black. CUNNINGHAM:Black. Mm-hmm. PILKENTON:So there' ; s some evolution going on right there. PILKENTON:So where did the white people go? PILKENTON:More rural, I guess, moved out. WALKER-HARPS:Okay. Okay. PILKENTON:Mm-hmm. Yeah, that -- it ain' ; t our city living anymore, it' ; s more rural. And subdivisions moved out. I would say we were getting to a point about that. WALKER-HARPS:Yeah, you were -- PILKENTON:Why there are more blacks moving today, that is what moving out of those -- I' ; m going to call them " ; dilapidated" ; -- they' ; re third generation homes. WALKER-HARPS:Yeah? CUNNINGHAM:Right? PILKENTON:So now, to move out of one of those into a nice unit like the Housing Authority has built would be an upgrade, because you would be renting it either way. So even if you pay a market rate for one of our units, and, you know, you' ; d move in one of our units as the Housing Authority based on your salary. Out in the private world, you get what your money will buy you, what you got. CUNNINGHAM:Mm-hmm. PILKENTON:And Section 8, I' ; ve heard landlords say, other investors, I' ; m going to call them, that they want Section 8 housing. Section 8 is -- they come out and inspect the house annually, and they make a list for the owner and a list for the tenant, you know, and it may just be for her to clean up a little bit better, and/or replace the lightbulbs, and the owner' ; s got to replace the screens or broken glass, they make a list. So they hold you to a little bit higher quality than just a privately-run unit. WALKER-HARPS:That brings me to my last question. The quality of the standard of housing, private housing in this city has not gotten much better. What do you suggest that we can do, or put in place, or what is it going to take to raise the level of rental housing? Some of these houses that people live in are just awesome. I mean, they are just awesome. It' ; s my feeling that I know we tear up, or we don' ; t maintain, or we don' ; t keep. But somewhere along the line, there has to be a medium, there has to be a coming together, between the landlords. There are houses for people to live in that the investors are whatever, whatever you might call them, would not even -- should not even want to rent. But they could easily rent them because they' ; re older people, more than likely, or handicapped or sick people who can' ; t go anywhere else. And that' ; s the sad part. But I drive by and I see, now why do you still live here? Because he only charges me, what, $20 a week. And I can' ; t go anywhere else for $20 a week. But here, conditions nobody should live in. And I know we' ; re trying to with the lend bank, we' ; re trying to get rid of them. But I' ; m not sure that we' ; re getting rid of the mindset of the landlords who continue to do it. PILKENTON:I don' ; t think it' ; s any miracle to this. It' ; s going to be an evolution. You know, and I' ; ve been involved with (Toussaint?), with the City of Griffin on several occasions. WALKER-HARPS:Yeah? PILKENTON:And we kind of -- a lot of conversation, and Toussaint' ; s doing a good job, too. Not just Bob Dull in the Housing Authority, but the City of Griffin. And upgrading and raising the minimum standards. So when they go out, if a house goes empty, just implementing every rule that they can without literally kicking a person out of their home, either, you can' ; t do that, you know? So if the house goes without power for more than six months, then you' ; ve got to bring the entire house up to a minimum standard. That means new heat in there, new insulation, new windows, I mean the entire -- electrical, everything has to be brought up to building code. So that one implemented rule in itself is going to be part of the evolution of upgrading homes. It' ; s the mindset. The City of Griffin can only -- and the Housing Authority, and the programs that' ; s put out there, the financial burdens of furnishing these homes and making them available can be done by just anybody. But to change that mindset. CUNNINGHAM:Mm-hmm? PILKENTON:And to tell them -- it' ; s like I was saying earlier, I just want to get them over to the side. I mean, you can do this, you know? Be determined and save your money and know that you can. And that' ; s the mindset. WALKER-HARPS:It was a miracle when Edgewood was torn down. PILKENTON:In Atlanta? WALKER-HARPS:No, here. Parallel to Boyds Row. We just call it Boyds Row, it' ; s D. F. Fuller Drive now. PILKENTON:Mm-hmm. WALKER-HARPS:Those houses. PILKENTON:Oh, yeah, yeah. That little cul-de-sac running each way?WALKER-HARPS:Yes. Yes. PILKENTON:That was awful. WALKER-HARPS:Yes. That was awful. PILKENTON:No, that ought to have been against the law. WALKER-HARPS:That was awful. PILKENTON:Now see, this brings our conversation to a whole nother level, and no -- I could defend -- you can' ; t kick a person out of their home, but those people needed to be out of those homes, and then something better than that. WALKER-HARPS:Mm-hmm. CUNNINGHAM:What were the conditions like? PILKENTON:They were living like a dog. CUNNINGHAM:What was the conditions like? PILKENTON:You could see daylight through the floor. Little shotgun house. Little shotgun house. WALKER-HARPS:It was unbelievable. Unbelievable. PILKENTON:Underneath you could see all the way, no heat or air. WALKER-HARPS:No (inaudible), it was awful. PILKENTON:This was just last year. This ain' ; t when I was a kid. WALKER-HARPS:And I understand that McKneely was almost as bad. PILKENTON:Well, all of that was part of the evolution. That' ; s because of Toussaint, the City of Griffin, the Housing Authority pressuring them to raise that minimum standard. WALKER-HARPS:Mm-hmm. CRUICKSHANK:Are there still any areas like that around? PILKENTON:There' ; s still houses like that, but this is a whole street that she' ; s referring to. I didn' ; t know it by name, but -- so they' ; re still shotgun houses. And the Housing Authority has tore down a lot of them just right there on Westwood, right there across the building that we just put in, on the golf course right there? WALKER-HARPS:Oh, okay. Okay. PILKENTON:We just tore down a bunch of them. We had torn down a bunch of them even before that, across the street. There are still some around, but they' ; re kind of more spotted now. We have to be a little bit careful about targeting an area. We have so many rules and regulations to -- you got good intentions, but you can' ; t step on nobody on the way. CRUICKSHANK:So what process do you have to go through to get the approval to tear a place down? You have to send an inspector in, and then he goes and talks to some board, or something? PILKENTON:Yeah, see, he has to -- you start putting pressure on the landlord, and you can' ; t do that -- you know, these houses across the street here are mill village homes, and they do have restrooms that' ; s been added on. And they' ; re not anything like as bad as this. But, you know, they would still -- you and I would consider them low income or poor, and poor quality. But it ain' ; t a bad way of life. I mean, they' ; re not hurting and punished, and anything. But now that was a different thing. That was really bad. WALKER-HARPS:Mm-hmm. PILKENTON:So pressure from the city to invest in them, and to hopefully pressure them to -- I think they finally bought them. And the landlords has got a good point, too, you can' ; t just take their property. And so he values them, like Ms. Walker was saying earlier, on $20 a week. Not that they got physical to bricks and sticks value. CUNNINGHAM:Mm-hmm? PILKENTON:They got cash flow value as soon as somebody living in it. So but you -- when you start pressuring them a little bit to upgrade that to insulate ' ; em in the houses, you can' ; t spend the kind of money to upgrade them. They don' ; t have that value, you can' ; t even invest in them. So it' ; s depress them and keep it that way, or sell them to the city. CUNNINGHAM:Hmm-mm. PILKENTON:You can condemn them. So the Housing Authority, the City of Griffin didn' ; t even know that they could do that. The Housing Authority, and Bob Dull' ; s expertise through the years, and our chartered authority will allow us to do some condemnation. CRUICKSHANK:Have you done a lot of that? PILKENTON:No. We actually right now are doing some, but it' ; s not for that exact purpose. It' ; s to redevelop, so it' ; s the same thing, it' ; s just that a lot of homes were on two streets there that were depressed, and bad -- poor qualities, and people still living there. So we want to redevelop it into a new senior facility, and not necessarily senior, but a new housing development. And we can' ; t put a project in there without owning them all. So we paid fair dollars for most of them. But then people find out -- it' ; s the Housing Authority, they start going up on the price. CUNNINGHAM:Hmm. PILKENTON:So you pay until it gets over what you can pay, and then you' ; ve got to stop, because they go too high. And then you got to do a condemnation where, you know, you' ; re not trying these investor' ; s homes -- it' ; s mostly investors. But you want to pay them a fair market value. And so you' ; ve just got to do a condemnation, and that' ; s just pretty much a process of getting it to a court and letting a judge decide what that value is. You' ; re still going to pay them for it. CRUICKSHANK:So what happens to the people who are living in those terrible places? CUNNINGHAM:Yes. CRUICKSHANK:And where do they get the money to stay anywhere? CUNNINGHAM:That' ; s right. PILKENTON:If the Housing Authority is ever instrumental in displacing somebody, then we have to monitor them for, like, five years, and go talk to them and interview them, and how has this impacted you, and support them. That' ; s for a minimum of five years. CRUICKSHANK:Does that mean Welfare, or --? PILKENTON:Well, if that' ; s what they need. Guide them towards that, whatever their needs are, and make sure that this specific action has impacted them. CUNNINGHAM:Hmm. PILKENTON:It may be for the better, most of the time it is, because it can' ; t get much worse than where you were. CRUICKSHANK:Mm-hmm. PILKENTON:But just -- these things can get expensive. And now you' ; re depending on the government for funding just to implement these programs, and the government for the subsidy of each person' ; s rents. CRUICKSHANK:So this never pays for itself, is that right? PILKENTON:No. That' ; s losing. CRUICKSHANK:Mm-hmm? PILKENTON:You know, the units that we built are self-supportive. I know -- you know, we still funded and supplemented with HUD. CRUICKSHANK:Mm-hmm. PILKENTON:But we operate pretty lean. WALKER-HARPS:All right, I hope we can fully utilize the Housing Authority -- the report that came out last year, and target some of these private landlords who are deliberately misusing or abusing, or people who -- and they can do better. So the practices that exist, I understand there is some of the -- these wouldn' ; t be private land owners. Somebody saw the agencies, the rental agencies, that have been allowing several people to make deposits on the same facility. PILKENTON:Mm-hmm. CUNNINGHAM:Hmm. WALKER-HARPS:And then not returning everybody' ; s money. You get it, and I can' ; t believe that I' ; ve not tested it yet, but I' ; m going to test it. That' ; s terrible! PILKENTON:Yeah, well, the condemnation that we' ; re doing is two or three houses that were sitting right there. WALKER-HARPS:(inaudible) PILKENTON:And they were out of state owners, not -- I don' ; t know of any local owner that would do that, or have face enough to stand in front of somebody and do that. So most of the time, are out of state owners. And they were doing that. And I don' ; t know how that scam works. But they were getting three, five hundred dollars down, and tell them they own that house. WALKER-HARPS:Mm-hmm. PILKENTON:And they never do. And it' ; s just a scam. And the houses are not livable -- WALKER-HARPS:Mm-hmm. CUNNINGHAM:-- in the first place. But somebody that was trying to help themselves were deceived to think they were going to be homeowners, for a small amount of money. And they ought to be in jail. WALKER-HARPS:Okay. CUNNINGHAM:Well, do you have any other stories, or anything else you' ; d like to share with us before we wrap up today? PILKENTON:I don' ; t know of anything specific. I' ; m sure when I get out of here, I' ; m going to think of a lot of things I should have said. (laughter) WALKER-HARPS:You know, you' ; ve done well. It' ; s an interesting experience -- interesting. CUNNINGHAM:Thank you so much for coming out and sharing your stories with us. PILKENTON:Oh, thank you. CUNNINGHAM:We appreciate you. WALKER-HARPS:Thank you. END OF AUDIO FILE Resources may be used under the guidelines described by the U.S. Copyright Office in Section 107, Title 17, United States Code (Fair use). Parties interested in production or commercial use of the resources should contact the Russell Library for a fee schedule. audio 0 purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL418GAA/findingaid
Location
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Griffin, Georgia
Duration
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58 minutes
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https://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL418GAA-023/ohms
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Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
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Title
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Interview with Harvey Pilkenton, April 23, 2019
Identifier
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RBRL418GAA-023
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Harvey Pilkenton
Be-Atrice Cunningham
Jewel Walker-Harps
John Cruickshank
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audio
oral histories
Subject
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Segregation
Public housing
Description
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Harvey Pilkenton grew up in rural Griffin, Georgia in the 1950’s during desegregation. Pilkenton currently works with the Griffin Housing Authority. In this interview, Pilkenton talks about his experiences during desegregation, his family, and his work with the Griffin Housing Authority.
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2019-04-23
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http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
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sound
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Griffin, Georgia
OHMS