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Dublin Core
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Title
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UGA Black Alumni Oral History Project
Subject
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University and colleges--University of Georgia
African Americans--History
Description
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The UGA Black Alumni <span>Oral History Project is an initiative of the University Archives unit of the Hargrett Rare Book & Manuscript Library at the University of Georgia that began in 2019. The goal of the project is to document the stories of Black students who attended UGA in the 1960s and 70s through interviews and preserve these stories for future generations.<br /><br />The UGA Black Alumni Oral History Project interviews document the experiences of Black students who attended the University of Georgia in the years following the University's 1961 desegregation. Some of the topics alumni discuss include their reasons for enrolling at UGA, their social lives, their academic goals, their experiences with racism on and off campus, and how their time at UGA has shaped their lives.<br /><br />All interviews in this collection have been indexed in OHMS.</span>
Creator
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University of Georgia Libraries
Publisher
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University of Georgia Archives
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2019-2020
Rights
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http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
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Oral histories
Identifier
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UA20-002
Coverage
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Georgia
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
OHMS Object Text
Contains OHMS index and/or transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable.
5.4 Interview with Dr. Ben Rucker, July 25, 2019 har-ua20-002_0002 36 minutes har-ua20-002 UGA Black Alumni Oral History Project Hargrett Rare Book & ; Manuscript Library Dr. Ben Rucker Ashley Carter 1:|21(1)|34(4)|45(14)|56(11)|69(13)|85(4)|97(6)|111(10)|122(3)|138(4)|154(3)|162(13)|174(2)|188(8)|202(5)|212(13)|223(5)|235(15)|248(5)|262(10)|276(4)|283(10)|292(13)|310(7)|317(4)|330(11)|340(15)|348(17)|360(3)|370(10)|387(9)|395(4)|409(14)|424(8)|437(1)|448(7) 0 Kaltura video < ; iframe id=" ; kaltura_player" ; src=" ; https://cdnapisec.kaltura.com/p/1727411/sp/172741100/embedIframeJs/uiconf_id/26879422/partner_id/1727411?iframeembed=true& ; playerId=kaltura_player& ; entry_id=1_cmov7wp0& ; flashvars[localizationCode]=en& ; flashvars[leadWithHTML5]=true& ; flashvars[sideBarContainer.plugin]=true& ; flashvars[sideBarContainer.position]=left& ; flashvars[sideBarContainer.clickToClose]=true& ; flashvars[chapters.plugin]=true& ; flashvars[chapters.layout]=vertical& ; flashvars[chapters.thumbnailRotator]=false& ; flashvars[streamSelector.plugin]=true& ; flashvars[EmbedPlayer.SpinnerTarget]=videoHolder& ; flashvars[dualScreen.plugin]=true& ; flashvars[Kaltura.addCrossoriginToIframe]=true& ; & ; wid=1_trami2xr" ; width=" ; 400" ; height=" ; 285" ; allowfullscreen webkitallowfullscreen mozAllowFullScreen allow=" ; autoplay * ; fullscreen * ; encrypted-media *" ; sandbox=" ; allow-forms allow-same-origin allow-scripts allow-top-navigation allow-pointer-lock allow-popups allow-modals allow-orientation-lock allow-popups-to-escape-sandbox allow-presentation allow-top-navigation-by-user-activation" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; title=" ; Kaltura Player" ; > ; < ; /iframe> ; 150 Why UGA? Well for me it was economic. It was a situation where my parents didn’t have money to pay for tuition or to pay for a higher education. Dr. Rucker discusses why he chose to attend UGA. Gainesville Junior College, Ebella High School, desegregation, tuition, Talladega, Morris Brown, Fort Valley, Savannah State, Bulldog fan 302 Bulldog fan? Otherwise, when I went to the University of Georgia, if a SEC team came we really didn’t go to the football games. Dr. Rucker discusses the conflict of being and African American and being a fan of the Bulldog nation’s sports teams. Georgia Tech, Eddie McAshen, football games, SEC team, Richard Appleby, Horace Green, black athlete, University of Alabama, Ronnie Hogue, basketball 446 Culture shock I guess from the standpoint of a cultural shock, going to school with whites and that kind of thing, my transition was probably easy. Dr. Rucker discusses what it was like to go from an all black community into a white college culture. Classroom, Black Student Union, BSU, maturity, sister, Gainesville Junior College, organic Chemistry, professor, projectors, hazed, college novelty 931 Dorm life I stayed on campus my two years. I stayed in Milledge Hall. Dr. Rucker discusses the pressures, insecurities as well as the benefits as an African American of living in a dorm at UGA. Roommate, Reed Hall, Russell Hall, open-minded, Alpha Phi Alpha, Black House, Prince Ave 1251 The most stressful moments I take that back - there was some time stressful in May of 1970 I believe that was. There were demonstrations in the streets. And as a matter of fact, my wife who is my wife now and I, we were dating at the time and we ended up going to jail. Dr. Rucker discusses his experience as a protester while attending UGA. Burney Harris High School, jail, Clarke Central, Augusta, SCLC, Southern Christian Conference, Martin Luther King Jr, Hosea Williams 1620 Motivation to succeed And I experienced how people who didn’t have education or didn’t use their education were, maybe it's too strong a word but doomed to experiences that were not necessarily uplifting. Dr. Rucker discusses what motivated him to graduate in spite of the difficulties of being a minority at UGA. Laborer, parents, sister, HBCU, Charlayne Hunter-Gault, Hamilton Holmes, confederate flag 2143 Words of encouragement Certainly, when I was going through it I wasn’t necessarily thinking about a legacy or anything at the time. But as I look back on it, certainly there is a legacy and you want to leave things better how you found it. Dr. Rucker offers words of encouragement to other minority students. AC: Ashley Carter (interviewer) BR: Benjamin Rucker AC: Alright, today is July 25, 2019. I am with Dr. Benjamin Rucker and I am so thankful that he is here today to tell us about his experience. So how do you feel today? BR: I' ; m doing great. I am delighted to be here. AC: I always like to start these out by just asking you to -- Let' ; s just start with just an overview of your experience at UGA. You graduated in 1972. BR: Graduated actually in June of 1971. AC: June of 1971. Talk to me about your experience at UGA. When you got there what was it like? Start us from the beginning. BR: Well actually, I transferred to the University of Georgia from Gainesville Junior College. I graduated high school in 1967 in Gainesville, Georgia at E.E. Butler High School. I graduated with an associates degree in science from Gainesville Junior College and transferred my credits to the University of Georgia. And started there in September 1969. My overall impression/experience was very positive. I loved being there when I was there and I have a lot of fond memories of being at the University of Georgia. AC: Ok so, you transferred. Is it the same thing as it is now where you have to wait 2 years and then you have to send in your application? What was the process like from transferring? BR: Well, it was actually fairly simple. I have a sister who also attended the University of Georgia. She was one year older and had graduated high school a year before I had. She also went to Gainesville Junior College and transferred after two years to the University of Georgia. It' ; s part of the University System of Georgia so it was fairly easy. It wasn' ; t-- At least I didn' ; t perceive it to be a difficult thing to do at that point in time. AC: Yeah. Ok so I' ; m sure back then you saw the culture of what UGA was. It was freshly, desegregated, there was a lot of tension still going on. What made you decide to transfer from the school you were at to UGA despite all of this stuff going on. BR: Well for me it was economic. It was a situation where my parents didn' ; t have money to pay for tuition or to pay for a higher education. It was clear that if I wanted to go to school I would have to pay for it pretty much for myself. Not that they didn' ; t want to, they just didn' ; t have it. They both were laborers. I stayed at home and went to junior college for two years. My tuition was not very much compared to today' ; s standards. It was pretty paltry, I think. But I got a reasonable education but there is no question that when I got scholarships to other places, I was valedictorian of my high school class but I couldn' ; t afford to go to Morehouse. I couldn' ; t afford to go to Talladega or Morris Brown or those places that traditionally that some of the other that were available for African Americans. I probably could have gotten to Fort Valley and Savannah State because they were part of the University System of Georgia but again it was away from home and so I stayed at the junior college. I was influenced probably and my sister was influenced I suspect by the counselors at the Gainesville Junior College that you can transfer your credits fairly easily and knowing that the cost would be, again, very-- it will be minimal in comparison to going to some of the other schools. So there is an economic issue that my parents had two college age students who wanted/needed to go to school and capable and so it was a no brainer. AC: So from what I am hearing and what I' ; m seeing on your shirt, you' ; ve always been a Georgia Bulldog. Is that something you' ; ve wanted do or what prompted you to become a Georgia Bulldog? BR: Well, I' ; m a Georgia Bulldog now. When I went to the University of Georgia there was, of course, the football team and the basketball team and other sports but there was only one athlete of African American descent. A guy by the name of Ronnie Hogue that played basketball for the University of Georgia and I believe that was probably 1970 or 1971. Otherwise, when I went to the University of Georgia, if a SEC team came we really didn' ; t go to the football games. I remember going to or listening to Georgia Tech games because they had a quarterback by the name of Eddie McAshen who was black and I would root for Eddie McAshen. AC: Umhmm, yeah. BR: And the one time I remember--I might have already graduated-- I can' ; t remember. But I did go to a game when the University of Georgia played Georgia Tech and I rooted for Eddie McAshen. AC: [laughter] The other team. BR: Yeah. So once [Richard] Appleby and Horace Green became players, I wasn' ; t a Bulldog in that sense, okay. So, I' ; ve since with the advent of the changes of the black athlete on the teams, yes I am a Bulldog fan. AC: Yeah, so you said you didn' ; t go to the football games. Why didn' ; t you go to the football games were you guys--you guys were allowed to go, right? BR: Well, yeah, we were allowed but again it was a situation there. There had been one black football player as I understand. And he transferred. I' ; m not sure the reason he transferred. As I recall he was a running back or something like that. He transferred out as I was coming in. And so the University of Alabama I think probably was integrating their team or in the process of integrating their team but you know if there were no black players on it I didn' ; t feel I could identify with the University of Georgia sports for the most part until Ronnie Hogue became a part of the basketball team. AC: Yeah, so we talked about you not being able to identify with it. Where did you find your identification or your identity? Where did you find that when you were at UGA once you transferred in? BR: Well we were actually my sense of identity--let me backup for a minute. I guess from the standpoint of a cultural shock, going to school with whites and that kind of thing, my transition was probably easy. I went to an African American high school, E.E. Butler High School in Gainesville, Georgia. I matriculated at Gainesville Junior College, but my experience which is predominantly white. It was a white, a predominantly white institution. My experience there was-- If there was going to be a cultural shock I would think it would have been there in that classroom or whatever. I transitioned into that fairly well. But see I stayed at home so I was living at home, going to school in the day so it wasn' ; t like you were isolated or whatever. I still had my friends that I graduated high school with and things like that. So by the time I got to Georgia, my sister was already there. So she basically kinda folded into the culture that she was there. By the time I was there, there were probably eighty to ninety blacks on the campus. We hung out in the Bulldog room and everybody knew where that corner was where all the black students were. We had our weekend things that we would go. There was the Black Student Union and actually by the time I got there I was a junior in college and so my maturity-- I had matured somewhat. Again my sister was there. And so it was just kind of a natural sorta thing. So I didn' ; t feel isolated in that sense. There were other students who were going through some of the same things. As a matter a fact I probably, again, I was more mature than probably some of the freshmen that were coming in. AC: Yeah. BR: And so the culture shock was not for me that much of a problem. I wasn' ; t fearful of going to school with whites. I wasn' ; t fearful of the teachers. I mean, I had a sense of confidence in what I could do and you know that was my first experience with taking classes with three hundred and fifty other students. And it was my first organic chemistry class but it was, I knew what was expected and you know I was mature enough by that point in time that I could apply myself so it wasn' ; t a problem. AC: That' ; s great! So I was so excited to interview you when I found out that you were a transfer student because what kept running through my head was I wonder what experience was like going to UGA from his old school? But hearing that it was to your advantage is really good to hear. BR: Very much so. AC: That once you got there you were mature, you knew how to handle things, you knew what was expected. So I have to ask you, when you were in those classes, like you said with three hundred and fifty students because those still exist at UGA, how did you keep up in a environment that was like that because as a black student something that I' ; ve heard in past interviews was sometimes the professors weren' ; t that nice to students of color. What was your experience in classrooms, especially being a science major? How did you find your place academically on campus? BR: Well actually I guess I can remember one positive thing, maybe a couple of things. I remember when I again, we didn' ; t have a lot of money and that kind of thing but I was able to get a job working in the chemistry lab as a work study. And as I worked in the chemistry lab, I remember after taking, I had enrolled and I was in an organic chemistry class. 340 was what it was called at the time. The professor- last name was Newton and he was [chuckle] -- At the time they used these roller projectors. He rolled with one hand and write with the other and it project on the screen. And these formulas were just going everywhere and spatial orientation was just not well with all the things you had to look at. But I can remember again, I was probably the only black student in the class as I recall. In that particular class. In another class there was another black student but I was the only black student in the class. And I was at work after class and so I was in the lab. He was walking down the hall and I knew who he was but I didn' ; t think he knew who I was. And he stopped walking back from the door. He had passed there probably several times during the course of the semester or the quarter. But he looked up and he saw me and says, " ; Hello, you' ; re in my organic chemistry class aren' ; t you?" ; And I said " ; Yes." ; And I was shaking in my boots because I thought he would say " ; You' ; ve had it." ; And he said, " ; Well, how are you doing?" ; I said " ; Well, I' ; m doing ok." ; I wanted to say, " ; Anything you can do to help me?" ; [laughter] But he said " ; How are you doing?" ; I said, " ; OK." ; And he said " ; Good." ; And that was it. That was the only interaction that we really had but for me it was a very positive thing. And so I don' ; t think that, again, being realistic about it, being the only black in the class, I think he recognized me there. So I don' ; t think it was negative being black in that class from that perspective, okay. Now there may be other people who had intent to be discriminatory. I' ; m not denying that at all but i don' ; t think everybody was. And I think from my perspective during that time, it was a positive experience for the most part. There were negative experiences I had but I didn' ; t choose to hold on to those. AC: Right. BR: And I think that as a-- And I don' ; t think necessarily that everybody loves you or most of the--95 percent of the people didn' ; t care one way or the other. There were probably, you know, two percent who hazed you and wished you weren' ; t there. And probably another two percent that wanted to see more blacks there but for the most part I think that people were the--and again you have to remember during this time also blacks were a novelty, you know, as far as some of the schools particularly the deep south. AC: So, what do you mean by ' ; they were a novelty' ; ? Can you explain that for the people listening? BR: Well I think that most whites didn' ; t know blacks. You know I' ; m certain that there are pockets of our society that doesn' ; t know black folk. And so, my perceptions of whites and their perceptions of me were not valid I guess you might say. And so, but there were people who were open minded enough, who would be interested enough to say ' ; Ok, lets see what you' ; re about,' ; you know. And that kind of thing so in terms of being a novelty, that people didn' ; t know you. They were a mystery to you. And there were people who were open enough. And there was a push to get blacks into schools. And so I think there was something that was encouraged by society overall but not by certain members of society, certainly. AC: Right. I' ; m learning so much. So let' ; s take a step away from academics and let' ; s talk about your campus life. Where did you live when you transferred? Did you stay on campus for some time or were you off on campus? BR: I stayed on campus my two years. I stayed in Milledge Hall. I stayed in Milledge Hall my first year. I had my first quarter, I remember walking into the dorm room and there was a guy by the name of-- my first quarter roommate. His name was Tom White, white guy. And he' ; s very open, very nice. AC: Oh! Good to hear. BR: And so, that experience was-- I couldn' ; t ask for anymore there. He moved out after my first quarter. My second quarter and my third quarter I didn' ; t have a roommate because I' ; m sure nobody wanted in that Milledge Hall wanted to move in with me. And so I took that again as a positive, you know. Because I had a private room. My second year there, my senior year, there was a guy by the name of Alton Dunlap that he befriended me. He was a black guy. He was from anyway he was from down near Statesboro and- Metter, Georgia was where he was from. Al, I believe he stayed in Reed Hall. So we connected from the time I had the private room. I think he had a private room for the same reason and so my second year we roomed together. We moved over to Russell Hall. So we stayed at Russell the last two years. AC: I' ; m smiling because I live in Reed now and I lived in Russell my freshman year so it' ; s a big circle. So that' ; s exciting. So you talked about your first quarter, you had a white roommate and you say you couldn' ; t have asked for a better situation because he was open-minded. Can you talk about some of what made that a good experience? Were you nervous when you first approached that situation? BR: Oh, I mean, absolutely. And each person is different. But he was very open. He was, again, a nice man. I was sorry he moved out. Now, we didn' ; t hang around together so it wasn' ; t like we went out and-- I mean, he would invite me sometimes but I never went. He had friends. He had roommates, I mean, he had friends that would come over and that kind of thing. But I had never gotten to that kind of a circle. So we went out. Whenever I socialized I got with my black friends. And we would go to the black house and/or we would do/go to some of the fraternity parties. There was one fraternity on campus. Alpha Phi Alpha was on campus first and so we either go to some of their parties or we would go to the parties at the black house where students would kinda get together and hang. AC: And where was the black house? BR: Black House was, I believe, at the time was up on Prince Ave - I' ; m docking on my street names. Lumpkin, yes, it was up on Lumpkin, up past -- There was a quid dorm that was there on Lumpkin. It was run by a private company. There was a private dwelling that had been occupied by a graduate student and he and the black student union, I guess named it the black house. AC: Yeah. BR: So. AC: Is this the small one? Was it really small? I think Pastor Nawanna told me in the first interview that it was so small but you guys used it for so much stuff? BR: Yeah, yeah, it was a very small dwelling. It was again, it was where we hung out. It was again a good experience. Everybody knew everybody. We were kinda close knit in that sense because, again, there were only about eighty on the whole campus so most of us knew each other. And so the graduate students didn' ; t necessarily shun the undergraduates. We all kinda hung out together. AC: That' ; s exciting so what' ; s your hardest moment that you can remember at UGA when you were there? BR: Hmm. Hardest moment. I think taking Physics was probably one of the hardest courses. AC: That' ; s still a trend to this day, so-- BR: Yeah. In terms of anything socially going on, difficulties or that kind of thing, I don' ; t remember. There was a time - I take that back - there was some time stressful in May of 1970 I believe that was. There were demonstrations in the streets. And as a matter of fact, my wife who is my wife now and I, we were dating at the time and we ended up going to jail. We were arrested as part of that demonstration. The demonstration that I was engaged in was not necessarily the same demonstration that the majority of people who were demonstrating for. There were black students, there were blacks who were involved in and disputing the closing of Burney Harris High School. And they were closing Burney Harris High School and moving the black students to Clarke Central or whatever the high school the white high school was then. So there was a pocket of black students who were protesting that. We joined, also a demonstration that was also a part of an anti-war movement so there was a large contingent of white students who were involved, also. And we kind of joined, I guess you might say in common cause. And so we ended up going to jail. It was stressful for my parents because these demonstrations had been going on every night for several weeks. There were riots in Augusta at that time I' ; m sure during that time as well for other reasons and all. So there was a lot of kinda turmoil and that kind of thing going on. I would call it stressful because you had to maintain your, try to maintain your good academic standing at that time as well. It was just difficult to do. And so that probably was the hardest time. AC: Wow! Was this a Black Student Union put together demonstration or was this just black students in general just getting together to do this? BR: Well actually it was bigger than that in some sense because SCLC was also involved in it. AC: SCLC, what does that stand for? BR: Southern Leadership - Martin Luther King' ; s organization, OK. AC: Okay, wow. BR: Southern Christian Leadership Conference. And so members of SCLC were also involved in some of the organization and demonstrations during that time. As a matter of fact, Hosea Williams, I believe, came down and we would meet in the church and then he' ; d give speeches then we' ; d go out into the streets. On the occasion I/we went to jail as a matter a fact, I recall. We went to, I' ; m sorry I can' ; t remember the name of the church. But we met in the church and there was the kind of getting the juices flowing kind of speech, then we went out marching. Looked around and there were national guard troops who were kinda lining the way and there was a guy over the bullhorn. And there were about 300 students, mostly students marching. We were asked to disperse and when we didn' ; t disperse then we were notified that we were under arrest and they had these trucks. And they loaded everybody up on trucks and that kind of thing. It was a peaceful sort of thing or whatever. But, nevertheless we looked around and said where' ; s Hosea and they said, " ; No, he' ; s gone back to Atlanta." ; [laughter] AC: He was out of there. BR: He was out. It was kind of a lesson in terms of I guess practicality and good choices and that kind of thing. I look back at on it today as a tumultuous time. And it was a learning experience, yeah. AC: Yeah, I see you smiling and laughing about these memories. Thinking back to younger, I guess, Dr. Benjamin Rucker what did you see yourself being that made you strong enough to withstand those science classes and some of the harder times that you had on campus? What got you through that? What was your inspiration to get you to graduation in June of 1971? BR: Again, my background, my dad had two years of college as a matter a fact but he didn' ; t finish. So he ended up being a laborer and I think it, seeing the effect it had on him. And my mother had finished high school and again she was a laborer. And I spent-- I started working doing things--I started working when I was around 15 just kinda little things. But then I started working on a regular basis at age 16. So all my summers were spent working where my dad worked. He worked at a poultry processing plant. And I experienced how people who didn' ; t have education or didn' ; t use their education were, maybe it' ; s too strong a word but doomed to experiences that were not necessarily uplifting. I didn' ; t want to do that the rest of my life. I mean it was clear. One of the greatest lessons my dad taught me was ' ; your either gonna go to school or you' ; re gonna work' ; . You don' ; t have to do what I do but you' ; re not going to stay here and not work. And you' ; re not going to-- if you go to school we gonna do what we can for you but you gotta work. And so I' ; d rather work over a text book and going to a class than the sweating that I had to do. And the labor looking back on it wasn' ; t that hard. There were some jobs there that were grueling, unsanitary. And what some of the people do there was not safe in my opinion. But nevertheless, sitting in that air condition building and reading a book, thinking about learning to me was a gift that I had in comparison to what I would be doing. And so I had, it was a no brainer about what direction I would take. And so grateful for the opportunity to be able to do that and I not only did it but I didn' ; t have to-- The state was helping me pay for it. AC: Yeah. BR: And so I was able to do it. My sister was able to do it. We were able to achieve an education and what I believe was a good education without, to God be the glory, without having to be in all that debt. AC: I am so happy to hear that your sister was there for some of the time you were there. Did she talk to you before you came and said ' ; hey, i don' ; t know or hey, cmon?' ; Did she have a message for you before you got there being that she was there before you? BR: As I recall again, her message was positive and she had the same experience at home that I had. She had the same motivation that I had. And so again it was a natural sort of transition. Now would we have liked to be in the AU Center somewhere? Yes. From a social standpoint we probably did miss out on a lot in terms of nurturing or whatever-- AC: Like at an HBCU. BR: Exactly, but again it was a different time. AC: Yeah. BR: Again, I look back, I may be romanticizing it a lot but as I look back on it, it was a positive experience. AC: And I think it' ; s good to hear this because for many people listening they may not think it was possible to have a good experience. BR: And again when I was talking about 1969-70, this was several years after Charlayne Hunter-Gault and Hamilton Holmes had been there. And there had been other students that had been there and so their experience probably was different than mine. And again I' ; m not saying that all the experiences-- there were people-- daily you had to look at a confederate flag in the window or something. And again there were always concerns about being ostracized or somebody saying something or whatever. But again I was there for a specific purpose and I have been accused, I guess, of having blinders on. That' ; s quite possible. But I choose to remember the more positive things. I think that' ; s healthy in life over the years. AC: So rewinding a little bit. You talked about this room that you guys went into. You said the black house but there was also another room you said where you guys went. BR: Yes, we were in the Bulldog Room. AC: Yes, the Bulldog Room. Can you tell me about that? Where was that on campus? BR: The Bulldog Room was in the Student Union Building. I think the building is still there. Where the bridge that comes past Stegeman- the coliseum -Stegeman, across the football, Sanford Stadium. And it was in the back of Milledge and Reed. It was a part of that quadrant there. And so the student union building and in there was a student center and they would play music and tables and fast food area there. So it was kinda that between classes we hung out back in that corner right there. And we hung out there. And so between classes you could find your buddies there and find people there, you know. If you had gripes you can unload and so there was always somebody there that you could identify with. AC: Was that considered you guys' ; safe space? BR: Absolutely, yes. That was a good safe space for us. Yes, so you would always go to that area. And then in the afternoons we would hang out in the corner of Bolton Hall in the cafeteria. AC: My favorite dining hall. [laughter] BR: Yeah, we had a corner, we had a large area and there was a small room on the side. Not small, smaller at the corner of Bolton Hall. So we would sit there and we' ; d shared, laughed and had a good time. We knew where we could go and share. It was a good situation to be in there. And again that is why I didn' ; t feel isolated because I knew where I could go and connect. AC: And that' ; s great that you had those places where you could -- BR: I' ; m sure, and again, Mrs. Hunter-Gault and Dr. Holmes didn' ; t have that. So that made a difference for me, I' ; m sure. AC: I have this last question for you. We' ; ve talked about what campus was like, what classes were like and where you' ; ve lived. I wanna know, what do you have to say to the black males there now who are just so thankful for people like you who helped pave the way in a sense. For us to be how we are now. For me to be in a position where I am now interviewing you. What to do you have to say to the black males on campus now who are working to finish? BR: I would say, again, the same thing to just keep it going because there is more to life than just me. There is more to life than what I' ; m going to do and what I' ; m going to get or whatever. It' ; s also about people who are following you. And the people that you' ; re going to meet in the future. And so you do have a--certainly, when I was going through it I wasn' ; t necessarily thinking about a legacy or anything at the time. But as I look back on it, certainly there is a legacy and you want to leave things better how you found it. And so I would encourage, study hard, work, because you want to pave the way as Hamilton Holmes and Charlayne Hunter-Gault did for us. And I would encourage hard work and honest work and continue to celebrate what God' ; s given us. AC: Well thank you so, so much. I can' ; t thank you enough for just shedding just knowledge and wisdom on me. I appreciate it. BR: You' ; re welcome. AC: Alright so that' ; s it. My name is Ashley Carter and we will see you in the next interview. video 0
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
37 minutes
Repository
Name of repository the interview is from
University of Georgia Archives
OHMS Object
Contains the OHMS link to the XML file within the OHMS viewer.
https://purl.libs.uga.edu/hargrett/har-ua20-002_0002/ohms
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Atlanta, Georgia
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Title
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Interview with Dr. Ben Rucker, July 25, 2019
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har-ua20-002_0002
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Ben Rucker
Ashley Carter
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audio
oral histories
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Political activists
United States--Civil rights
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Dr. Benjamin Rucker is a physician specializing in internal medicine in Augusta, Georgia. He earned his medical degree from the Medical College of Georgia in 1975. Prior to medical school he attended Gainesville Junior College (now the University of North Georgia, Gainesville Campus) where he earned his associates in science. He then transferred to the University of Georgia where he completed his bachelor's degree in science in 1972. Dr. Rucker is a native of Gainesville, Georgia where he attended E.E. Butler High School. In this interview, Dr. Rucker discusses his experience attending the University of Georgia, including his decision to enroll, his involvement with local activism, his experience as a transfer student, and his thoughts on UGA athletics during the years he attended.
Date
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2019-07-25
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http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
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sound
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Georgia
OHMS
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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UGA Black Alumni Oral History Project
Subject
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University and colleges--University of Georgia
African Americans--History
Description
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The UGA Black Alumni <span>Oral History Project is an initiative of the University Archives unit of the Hargrett Rare Book & Manuscript Library at the University of Georgia that began in 2019. The goal of the project is to document the stories of Black students who attended UGA in the 1960s and 70s through interviews and preserve these stories for future generations.<br /><br />The UGA Black Alumni Oral History Project interviews document the experiences of Black students who attended the University of Georgia in the years following the University's 1961 desegregation. Some of the topics alumni discuss include their reasons for enrolling at UGA, their social lives, their academic goals, their experiences with racism on and off campus, and how their time at UGA has shaped their lives.<br /><br />All interviews in this collection have been indexed in OHMS.</span>
Creator
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University of Georgia Libraries
Publisher
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University of Georgia Archives
Date
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2019-2020
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http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
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Oral histories
Identifier
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UA20-002
Coverage
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Georgia
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
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5.4 Interview with Ken Dious, March 11, 2020 har-ua20-002_0004 85 minutes har-ua20-002 UGA Black Alumni Oral History Project Hargrett Rare Book & ; Manuscript Library Ken Dious Venus Jackson 1:|22(8)|54(7)|67(7)|82(12)|99(14)|111(16)|126(2)|145(10)|163(5)|179(1)|192(2)|205(8)|226(9)|243(9)|259(5)|268(1)|289(16)|311(4)|326(6)|345(14)|359(13)|385(9)|411(7)|430(10)|457(8)|485(1)|505(11)|523(3)|535(9)|549(2)|576(10)|591(1)|613(9)|638(2)|657(14)|678(6)|689(10)|706(4)|718(9)|735(11)|749(10)|764(7)|786(7)|806(7)|819(7)|847(4)|856(15)|871(3)|883(8)|895(7)|911(4)|923(15)|940(3)|950(6)|963(11)|988(10)|999(9)|1013(14)|1031(3)|1053(5)|1070(3)|1081(1)|1098(16)|1117(12)|1130(8)|1158(4)|1177(14)|1198(9)|1213(8)|1238(5)|1255(13)|1271(12)|1292(12)|1305(12)|1340(1)|1351(4)|1369(4)|1389(14)|1412(12)|1429(3)|1440(6)|1454(2)|1471(14)|1482(11)|1498(3) 0 Kaltura video < ; iframe id=" ; kaltura_player" ; src=" ; https://cdnapisec.kaltura.com/p/1727411/sp/172741100/embedIframeJs/uiconf_id/26879422/partner_id/1727411?iframeembed=true& ; playerId=kaltura_player& ; entry_id=1_x4uz8xno& ; flashvars[localizationCode]=en& ; flashvars[leadWithHTML5]=true& ; flashvars[sideBarContainer.plugin]=true& ; flashvars[sideBarContainer.position]=left& ; flashvars[sideBarContainer.clickToClose]=true& ; flashvars[chapters.plugin]=true& ; flashvars[chapters.layout]=vertical& ; flashvars[chapters.thumbnailRotator]=false& ; flashvars[streamSelector.plugin]=true& ; flashvars[EmbedPlayer.SpinnerTarget]=videoHolder& ; flashvars[dualScreen.plugin]=true& ; flashvars[Kaltura.addCrossoriginToIframe]=true& ; & ; wid=1_dbto7a86" ; width=" ; 304" ; height=" ; 231" ; allowfullscreen webkitallowfullscreen mozAllowFullScreen allow=" ; autoplay * ; fullscreen * ; encrypted-media *" ; sandbox=" ; allow-forms allow-same-origin allow-scripts allow-top-navigation allow-pointer-lock allow-popups allow-modals allow-orientation-lock allow-popups-to-escape-sandbox allow-presentation allow-top-navigation-by-user-activation" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; title=" ; Kaltura Player" ; > ; < ; /iframe> ; 108 Witnessing integration I think when you talk to me you’re talking to maybe a little different person because I was raised in Athens. I went to high school here. I know the complete history of the integration of the University of Georgia. I’ll tell you a little story. Mr. Dious discusses what he witnessed and experienced during the initial integration of UGA. Howard High, Turner High, Hamilton Holmes, Fort Valley State, Morris Brown, Charlayne Hunter-Gault, Donald Hollowell, NAACP Defense Fund, Varsity, Klu Klux Klan, Savannah State, scholarship 586 UGA Acceptance So I was a 19 year old kid on his own so I come over and file my application and I met the registrar named Walter [Daniel?] who is now dead and he told me that I could not get in. Mr. Dious discusses why he decided to attend the University of Georgia, what it took to be accepted and his first impression of campus. Registrar, Otis Johnson, Harold Black, Playboy 900 Demanding space on campus for black culture Well, now when I was in school we started a Black Student Union. There were no black fraternity, black sororities on campus or anything so we started the Black Student Union to advocate for the rights of black students. Mr. Dious discusses how the BSU was created and a few of the demands that were made by BSU to campus leaders in order to create a healthier environment for black students. He also discusses the experience of being the first black to attempt to play UGA football as well as what it was like to be a black UGA sports fan. Black athletes, scholarships, football, Davison, Dixie, National Anthem, Bulldog Fan, G-Day, Dooley, Dean Tate, Justice Benham 1561 Down-time We had what we called a ‘Black house’. Yeah we had a house called The Black House. Out there on Lumpkin Street. And that’s where we met. Mr. Dious discussed how he and other blacks gathered and the impression that their gatherings left on the rest of the majority white campus. He also discusses his search for the genius on campus. The Black House, Sorority and Fraternity, test, polarization, Civil Rights Movement, Otis Johnson, Dean Tate, Zell Phillips, Anderson Williams, Mary Blackwell, Joe Sell 2140 Law School experience And I was the first black student that had gone undergrad to law school. I was the first Double Dog. Black Double Dog. Mr. Dious discusses how his and his fellow black classmates’ demands for equality continued even after getting accepted and attending law school. Thespian Debate Society, Justice Benham, Confederate Flag, Football protest sign, Warren McVeigh, Houston, stadium, fight, black athletes, scholarship 2599 Events on campus Played during the time I was in school, when I was in school the games were not all played in the coliseum. They had Woodrow Hall and it was too small so you had to pull straws to get in. Dious discusses the different types of events on campus and fond memories of some of the concerts. Black performers, Ray Charles, curfew, basketball, black sections 2776 Affirmative Action What officially happened to the University of Georgia is that I was a lawyer when they filed in the University of Georgia affirmative action program. Dious discusses how the loss of Affirmative Action affected the campus and what role he played as the case found its way in court. SAT scores, Whoop Cases, Brunswick, Ga, Lucy Cobb House, Lee Parks, Hope Grant 3185 Law School admission They didn’t look down at the undergrad kids (within UGA), they would go to Morehouse, Spellman, and try to get their best students to come. Mr. Dious discusses his surprise at who UGA seemed to be in favor of attending the UGA Law School. Spellman, Tuskegee, BASA, University of Oklahoma, Mary Frances Early 3595 Search for the UGA genius You know, I didn’t think it would be any problem. Well the thing that surprised me, I thought that I got a little brainwashed saying that you can’t go to school with these students. Mr. Dious discusses his search for the elusive geniuses that he was supposed to run into while attending the University of Georgia as he went about learning and connecting with others on campus. Base programming language, trigonometry, calculus, cost-accounting, Lockheed 3955 The differences between Dious’s previous schools and UGA When I was at Savannah State the difference in the schools were when I was at Savannah state they had calculators, one calculator. We had to get in line to use it. When I came to Georgia business school, they had so many in the basement the guys used to go down there and play with them in general. Mr. Dious discusses how attending UGA enriched his life. The trials that came with attending as an African American readied him for life after college. Black professor, black student, Lassiter 4320 Dious tries out for football Matter of fact the way I ended up playing again was a friend of mine that was in school named Carter. He said he wanted to go out for the football team but he didn’t want to go out by himself. Dious discusses how and why he joins the football team. He also explains the reaction he received from coaches, players and the certain groups outside of UGA. Dooley, basketball, football, baseball, swimming, YMCA 4537 Childhood But my mother would not let me go over and socialize and work with whites. I didn’t know anything about the white community. So I never got embedded to saying ‘yes, sir’, ‘no, sir’. I didn’t know anything about that. I didn’t think about that at all. Dious gives us a peek into his childhood. He discusses where his fearless mindset comes from. Parents 4778 The effect of athletics on integration I remember when I was a kid and George Wallace ran for governor for Alabama. Actually George Wallace had decided, him and the governor in front of him, that they were going to try to get together and solve some problems that blacks were having in Alabama Dious recounts events that led to the desegregation of sports in the southeast United States. Richmond Flowers Sr., Richmond Flowers, Jr., Bear Bryant, Alabama, Tennessee, Sam the Bam Cunningham, Southern California, NCAA tournament Ken Dious discusses his early life and his years at the University of Georgia, including his social life, academics, and athletics. VJ: Venus Jackson KD: Ken Dious VJ: Alright, it is March 11, 2020. I am here at the Special Collections Building at UGA. I am Venus Jackson and I' ; m here with Attorney Ken Dious. I am so excited. And Mr. Dious, I believe you got your undergrad, masters and your law degree here at UGA, correct? KD: Alright, I didn' ; t quite finish the masters. I was ten hours short in the masters for math education and I decided to go to work with my undergrad degree because it paid more. VJ: Oh. KD: It was a business degree and it would pay me more than a school teacher degree with a masters. I went to work with Lockheed, Marietta Lockheed. They made this big airplane at this time, C5A. VJ: Okay. KD: I worked in the cost accounting department. VJ: Okay. Well, okay so you got down to 10 hours and decided that that wasn' ; t what you wanted to or that the position didn' ; t interest you, is that what-- KD: Yeah it was doubtful I would have been a good teacher -- the program was kind of geared toward going back being a teacher. They were trying to get more black males into teaching at that time. VJ: Okay. KD: And the people that were in the program with me, not just black males, it was a lot of black females too. They all went back to teaching. VJ: Okay. KD: They are all retired now, I' ; m still working. VJ: And you' ; re still working. KD: Yeah, I should have stayed back, l stayed in teaching. VJ: But it' ; s keeping you young though, right? [laughter] KD: Let' ; s say busy. VJ: Okay, so while you were here at UGA, what was your overall impression of your time here? KD: My experience? VJ: Yes. KD: I think when you talk to me you' ; re talking to maybe a little different person because I was raised in Athens. I went to high school here. I know the complete history of the integration of the University of Georgia. I' ; ll tell you a little story. You want to hear a little story? VJ: Absolutely. KD: That most people don' ; t realize. When I was 12 years old, my brother and them here had a good football team. He was five years older than I was. He was a senior and I was in the 7th grade. But we always played the schools out of Atlanta: Turner High, Howard High, all black high schools out of Atlanta. And one of the teams that we' ; d play was Turner High. Turner High is where Hamilton Holmes went to High School. So I' ; m there as a little kid listening to the radio in the 7th grade. My brother and them went up to play Turner High. Good game. And the guy they had problems stopping was a running back named Hamilton Holmes. VJ: Oh. KD: Then the first time I ever saw Hamilton Holmes-- After the football season, I was still in the 7th grade. He came down here and played basketball. Two teams played basketball against each other also. And he was a little 5' ; 9" ; point guard out there. At that time, people weren' ; t quite as tall. And he was a great athlete. So when my brother and them graduated, I decided to go out for the football team early in the 8th grade, really too early. But all those guys had a great team so they decided they were going to different schools: Fort Valley State, Morehouse, Morris Brown, wherever, whatever. And I told him, I said " ; You know I wanna keep up with this guy Hamilton Homes. I wanna how did he do?" ; So when they came home after their first year of college and I' ; m in the 8th grade now. I asked him-- you know we talking and those were my brother' ; s friend and they were only 5 years older. How did Hamilton Holmes do against you? A guy from Albany said they only put him in the game for 2 minutes. He didn' ; t play. I was shocked. But years later you-- History teaches you that Hamilton Holmes did not play because they did not want him to get hurt at Morehouse because he had already been chosen to integrate the University of Georgia. VJ: Oh. Wow. KD: Yep. It didn' ; t just haphazardly happen. He and Charlayne Hunter had already been chosen. VJ: They had already been chosen. KD: Donald Hollowell. After I became a lawyer, Donald Hollowell, the lawyer that of course [did the team] with Constance Baker Motley. I' ; m not sure people know who that is. She' ; s the first black female that got a federal judgeship but at that time she was working with what you call the NAACP Legal Defense Fund. How all this integration stuff occurred, you have to understand that the Legal Defense Fund in New York, where I eventually ended up working, separated from the regular NAACP and they called it the NAACP Legal Defense Fund. They separated in 1959 because of tax reasons. So the NAACP that most people know is headquartered in Baltimore. You buy in NAACP your membership goes to Baltimore who have maybe 1 or 2 lawyers. But all the litigation that you ever heard about or read about comes out of New York from the NAACP Legal Defense Fund. That probably have-- I don' ; t know how many lawyers now, probably 50 to 60 lawyers. And that' ; s all they have up there is lawyers. They don' ; t do the marches or anything. So Donald Hollowell and Constance Baker Motley from the defense fund filed the desegregation for Hamilton Holmes and Charlayne Hunter to come to the University of Georgia. It was the first case filed in the south. That' ; s how that occurred. So the first time I met Hamilton Holmes in 1961 or something like that, I was an athlete. As I said I was going to play basketball in high school. So when he was at the University in the afternoon just to get a break or get away for exercise. Since he had played basketball here with his high school, he would come over to our basketball practices and practice with us. He would be on the scrub team or whatever and play. Matter of fact, he taught me how to use my left hand. So I knew Hamilton Holmes ever since I was in high school. VJ: Wow. KD: So he would sometimes bring us back over to his room over in-- can' ; t remember the name of the dorm. But I was also out there when I was in high school when the mob was outside of [cinemas?] over on Baxter street where Charlayne Hunter stayed. And, you know, kid running around. We said ' ; wow they go in that dorm what are we going to do?' ; Six or seven of us supposed to be little bigtime football players. We gonna have to go in and save this girl but they never-- they all just stood across the street and a big mob showed up. Us students from the University of Georgia. These were not just people from the city. These were University of Georgia students protesting her being there. It was a good sized group of students out there. You' ; ve got to remember at that time the University of Georgia was only composed of about 18, 000 students. In my experience, how did I get to the University of Georgia? VJ: But now you were saying that you were ready to protect her from the mob if needed be. KD: Yes, we had no choice. Yes. VJ: Okay, yes. KD: Of course, I remember when Hamilton Holmes first came to town, he did not stay on campus. He stayed at the Killian residence and an adult man with a shotgun then had to stay at that residence to protect Hamilton Holmes. VJ: Wow. KD: Yes, I remember that skit. I was-- I guess I was 14-15 years old then. At that time all the stuff occurred in Athens including the marches, sit-in marches and so forth that I participated in as a kid at the Varsity. VJ: Yes. KD: I' ; m an old acquaintance with the Klan, the Ku Klux Klan, yes. They wore their robes and everything. Then we had to fight until they finally decided that they were going to integrate. The Varsity and so forth. VJ: So you were in on the sit-ins at the Varsity? KD: Yes. So how I got to the University of Georgia? I played a year of basketball at Savannah State after my first year of college there. And I wasn' ; t going to play anymore ball because I had gotten hurt a couple of times. And mom had said forget it, you aren' ; t going to play college ball or anything. But I was down there playing ball and the coach said, ' ; I like your game, you make my team and I' ; ll give you a scholarship' ; . And he did. A part-time scholarship. At that time black schools and probably even today don' ; t give outright full scholarships. And I played for a year and then my father got sick and even with the scholarship that they were giving me, I could not attend Savannah State unless I was going to borrow money. So I decided to transfer to the University of Georgia. VJ: Wow. KD: Now mind you I did not have Donald Hollowell. I did not know him except I had seen him as a kid. So I was a 19-year-old kid on his own so I come over and file my application and I met the registrar named Walter Danner, who is now dead, and he told me that I could not get in. I went back the second time because I had excellent grades and I had passed my SAT scores and my grades from high school and Savannah State so I could get in. So he and I went back and forth even though they even already had black students from Athens. Mary Blackwell was here. Joe Lister was here. Of course, they were from Athens. Then you had Harold Black was already here. Guy named Eugene was already here. Ahh, who was already here? Of course, I knew these people from Athens. I didn' ; t know the other students that were already here. And of course Holmes by that time had already graduated. He was gone. So they were the marines and we were the army coming in. VJ: Okay. KD: So I finally went back after threatening and finally he gave in about a month before school started in August. We started school in September. We started late then. State schools were the last ones that went to school so they didn' ; t start schools then until September. The last week in September and maybe about three before that due, it came in the mail, my acceptance. VJ: Alright. KD: So I didn' ; t know what I was going to do. I was prepared to do something. It looked like I was going in the army or something but it came in the mail and I popped up on campus. And I think at that time when I popped up on campus, maybe there was somewhere there were 7 black students at the time. Otis Johnson was here. He eventually became the mayor of Savannah. Just saw him the other day. Like I said, Harold Black was here. There was about 7 or 8 here on campus. I think I was number 7 on campus or number 8 on campus at the time. And that' ; s how I ended up at the University of Georgia. VJ: And do you think they were trying to control the number of students? KD: I think they still had hoped that we were going to go away. VJ: Ok. KD: My classmate, Dr. Furr was here. He is now deceased. He was here. And that was all the people that I can recall that were here at that time. So that' ; s how I entered the University of Georgia trying to--you know at that time, they want to tell you that you were a black student coming out of black high school you know that was all that was there, that you could not graduate from this institution. Your high school was so poor there was no way you could graduate from this institution. And told us all that even though the University of Georgia wasn' ; t even ranked anywhere academically at the time. It' ; s gotten much better. VJ: Yes. KD: Because the University of Georgia used to be the #1 party school in the country. Matter a fact, Playboy had an article on it at one time when I was in school. And they ranked the top 10 party schools in the country and the University of Georgia was not on the list because Playboy said it was beyond fair to compare these other colleges with the University of Georgia because it was so far out front. Anyway, it was a good school. It was a good education so when I got to Georgia they told me, my buddy, my friend that I went to high school with, Dr. Furr - same class but had been admitted. I had no idea about thinking about applying. No one ever told me to apply. I just wanted to flirt with the teachers or something. I was a big time football player and this and that even though I was president of my honor society in high school. VJ: Okay, okay. KD: So they told me all this. So I got here and one thing Dr. Furr told me. He says now, " ; You need to carry you some ' ; stare' ; material to class." ; And I said, " ; What' ; s that?" ; And he says, `It' ; s something for you to read while other teachers, students stare at you before they call the class to order?' ; [laughter] VJ: Okay. KD: He was absolutely right. Now in all fairness of my years at the University of Georgia to the students, I will give them overall probably a B rating, a B+ rating. I think when you look back on history, it was the administration that we had more problems with. They were afraid. Because they didn' ; t want to appear to be too liberal and they were scared of their alumni as to what they were going if they let so many black students in so forth and so on. So they were standing their ground just like they stood their ground with the integration of high school. VJ: Ok. KD: You know, same thing. It got better by and by. Well, now when I was in school we started a Black Student Union. There were no black fraternity, black sororities on campus or anything so we started the Black Student Union to advocate for the rights of black students. We formed this organization and we made demands on the university. Matter of fact, I brought a copy. We made twenty demands we made on the university. We made demands like: we wanted black faculty, we wanted black scholarships. One of the demands that we made that came through - If I had to make it again, I wouldn' ; t make it. And we wanted some black athletes. [laughter] As of today that' ; s all we have are black athletes. But in 1966 when I was a sophomore I decided to go out for the football team. VJ: Yes, you did. KD: I went out for the football team and got my life threatened. So forth by the Klan. VJ: So by the Klan. KD: By the Klan. VJ: But no one on the campus-- KD: Said a word. VJ: Said a word. KD: Well not directly but when I went out, there was a big national news, matter a fact, international news. I saw the people in the armed services newspaper said they read about it in Europe. Because I was the first black person in the whole south, it wasn' ; t just the University of Georgia. When I went out in 1966 there was not one black athlete in the entire south playing. So there I go out there. And Vince Dooley was there. He was in his third year of coaching. It went decently well except for the first couple of days. They were going to pick at me a little bit. When I got in the shower everybody left. [laughter] VJ: Okay. KD: So when I was in the shower they wanted to throw a little soap. VJ: Hmm. KD: So you know, I' ; m a football player you think that is going to intimidate me? So I just took all the soap and everything else and threw it back over and told them tomorrow I' ; m bringing my wrench and when I get in the shower I' ; m going to take a loose a sink and I' ; m going to throw it over there. [laughter] I mean, I' ; m a football player and you' ; re going to intimidate me? But athletics brings about respect real quick. Once you knock a couple of people on their butt, it brings about respect real quick. So that subsided. And I made some lifelong friends out there. Some of the people out there then was -- Let' ; s see who you may know? Let' ; s see Billy Payne. You' ; ve ever heard of Billy Payne. VJ: I' ; ve heard of Billy Payne. KD: He became the -- Helped the Olympics come to Atlanta with Andrew Young. And then he became the president of the Masters. Billy Payne was out there. A couple of lawyers around town, one of the lawyer from around town was out there. But he made it clear. Dooley made it clear that he was not going to play me. I am not a big Vince Dooley fan. But I understand now looking at history. He was - may have been under some pressure. VJ: A little bit. KD: A little bit. Had a good team that year. As a matter of fact, a guy that followed me a little later, Hurley. I was a senior when Hurley came in the freshman team. He made it clear that he wasn' ; t going to play him either. But I can tell you the whole history about the south in regards to athletes. But then about this time I was in school. I was in Business School. So the students were either interested or disinterested. They didn' ; t bother you or either they were respectful. We used to go down and play pick-up ball at what we called Stegeman Hall then. At that time. Met a couple of white guys. Got to know them and we' ; ve known them for years. Now what happened when we started making demands on what we wanted. Got to remember this was during the civil rights movement, right in the midst of the civil rights movement. You even had white people here and they were called SDS [Students for a Democratic Society] and all that was here so forth Student Democratic Society and they were marching and sometimes we would march with them about some things and so forth. Then we had to fight sometimes. One of the biggest fights we ever had was in the Bulldog Room. They' ; ve changed it now to the Tate Center movie a little bit. And I remember one of the days we had to fight was, we had some black and white restrooms for the help. VJ: They had black and white what? KD: Restrooms for the help. So we found out they had black and white restrooms for the help. Because remember these people were serving us particularly from Athens, I knew them because I grew up in Athens. VJ: That' ; s true. KD: So we decided that we were going to say, ' ; Here it is. Nobody else coming through this line until they take those signs down' ; . So we stood there for about fifteen or twenty minutes then someone tried to come through the line and a whole fight broke out, in the whole Bulldog room. We fought maybe twenty-five or thirty minutes before the campus cops got there and broke us up. And the next thing you know we were over there meeting with the president. I can' ; t remember-- I think it may have been -- It wasn' ; t Aderhold, it was president then-- I should remember his name. I' ; m getting old. We used to call him a nickname. We used to call him Horse Doctor [Fred Davison] because he had PhD in veterinary medicine, behind his back [laughter]. We used to meet with him once a month in the president' ; s dining room over at Continuing Ed. I don' ; t know if they still have the President' ; s room over there or not. And we would discuss our demands and so forth. VJ: And is this BSU? You all were representing as BSU? KD: Yes. BSU. Black Student Union. VJ: And how many of you would usually go to discuss? KD: About six or seven of us. VJ: Six or seven. KD: It was that many of us to start with. VJ: Right. That' ; s what' ; s making me wonder over at the Bulldog Room. You all were ready to fight and there was only how many? KD: Six or seven. VJ: Six or seven taking on UGA [inaudible] Right. You all were fighters but you had to be. KD: And we had some fights in a couple of other places and one thing we did do - Dixie. Atlanta Dixie. So here is what we did. One of the demands was that they quit playing Dixie at the football games. So we -- our protest was that as long as they played Dixie, we would not stand up for the National Anthem. So we were in the stands - The guy [Colin] Kaepernick out in California? VJ: Yes. KD: I don' ; t know. He must have stole that from us. VJ: I' ; m telling you. You all were doing it a long time before that, weren' ; t you? Wow. KD: We would not stand up for the national anthem. VJ: My goodness. KD: And I think we had one person in the band or something like that and they went to Mississippi or something like that, they could not go with the band. VJ: Wait you' ; re saying that they couldn' ; t go-- KD: To Mississippi or Alabama with the band. If they were in the band they could not go, did not go. VJ: Okay. KD: But finally they stopped playing Dixie after we protested so much in the stadium about it. And you' ; ve heard the story about the sign that was in the stadium. When I was in school they double decked the stadium. The stadium was not double decked when I first got here. Matter a fact, the stadium used to have a ' ; colored section' ; as they called it. Amazing about that. VJ: Was it usually full? KD: Yeah it was still there when we were students. VJ: Okay. KD: Strange history. Here is what' ; s strange about that as you get older. People would come to the game, sit in that colored section made of wood stands and pull for a school that they could not go attend or their children could not attend. Isn' ; t that a shame? Isn' ; t that amazing? And they were big Bulldog fans. VJ: Big Bulldog fans. KD: And I' ; ll tell you something that' ; s about a little known history. So the only time in that stadium when they first got integrated except for the student section where we sat was when I went out for the football team that day at G-Day, my mother sat and my [high school] football coach sat -- first time they ever sat in a regular place/seating. They gave them tickets. Yes. VJ: Nice. KD: That was the first time but they still had the colored section down on the end. VJ: But they got tickets to sit in the regular section. KD: Right. That was the first time that had ever been done. VJ: But you still didn' ; t play, right? You just -- KD: This was just spring practice. VJ: This was during spring practice. Okay. KD: I only stayed during spring practice because he made it clear that he was not going to play me. So I wasn' ; t going to be no tackling dummy on the B team and you aren' ; t going to play me and so forth. He didn' ; t say it in so many words but through his actions. VJ: Right. KD: The coach who I liked the most was the defensive coach. And I loved him. And he was very friendly and helpful and so I went through all of that. So it finally came time to graduate and I left for a-- I got drafted into the army. VJ: Before you go into that, I did want to ask when you all refused to stand for -- KD: The national anthem? VJ: The national anthem. Was that the entire black section that wouldn' ; t stand or was it just you all as students. KD: Just us as students. Just us in the student section. We were in the student section. VJ: And of course everyone noticed, right? Even though there only 7 or 8 of you? KD: Yeah. VJ: And it still disturbed them. Wow. KD: Because at the same time we were protesting that they quit playing Dixie. VJ: Right. KD: As a matter a fact, Dean Tate was around then. VJ: Okay. KD: Okay. And you' ; ll see that one of the demands we made to the school is that they quit playing Dixie. So we had done something historical at that time. Justice [Robert] Benham who is on the Supreme Court of Georgia now. He was in law school. We had that we called a " ; Black House." ; Yeah we had a house called The Black House. Out there on Lumpkin Street. And that' ; s where we met. And Justice Benham was staying in the Black House. VJ: What? Wow. KD: Yes, we had parties out there in the Black House and everything. VJ: That was especially the Black House? That was only yours? KD: Yes, only ours. It was a house he was renting from the church out there. VJ: Okay. KD: So we just called it the Black House. We met, hung out and had parties and everything. It was interesting at first. One time we were having a party and some white kid walked in or something with a white girl. The guy got mad and takes his [music] box and went home. So we had to sit around and talk about that. And so we finally said that the white kids could come. They could come to the black house parties. Matter of fact we went around to some of the [white] sorority and fraternity houses' ; parties. Because sometimes they would have black entertainers. VJ: Ah. KD: See at their parties. And also what fraternities and sororities did was, they kept a record of all the tests that the professors had given. VJ: Yes. KD: I finally told them I had to get a copy of that test. You know, I' ; m not --[laughter]. You' ; re not going to come in here-- We are going to be on an equal basis and you' ; ve got some kind of record. I' ; m coming in looking at the files. I want to see what kind of test that the professor gave the last time or whatever. I did that a couple of times. But what really happened though and in a sense it makes sense, that as more blacks got on campus more polarization occurred. Particularly when the [black] fraternities and sororities got on campus. More polarization occurred and blacks and whites kind of separated. Yes, at that time you didn' ; t have anyone else so you played ball down at Stegeman Hall with the white kids and this and that and the other. And you would have a cup of coffee or whatever. But as more blacks came on campus polarization occurred. Sometimes I think maybe these fraternities and sororities were the worst thing that could have ever happened... even though I' ; m an Alpha. [laughter] I don' ; t know what it is like today. I don' ; t know. But there are still now blacks mingling in the white sorority or fraternities, I don' ; t know. I know that there are some whites that are members of some black organizations on campus. I know that but I don' ; t know if it' ; s the opposite way or not. I don' ; t keep up with the campus as much as I used to. I' ; ve gotten older. So we kinda plucked along there. More blacks started coming. I think when I left maybe, it might have been twenty blacks on campus at that time when I graduated. The University of Georgia had the -- As I got older I studied the history. The University of Georgia had the most active black student union in the south. VJ: Alright. KD: That probably came from the fact that a lot of the kids came from Athens and we felt a little more secure in that we also-- I came into here out of the Civil Rights Movement. I just finished marching against the Klan. So you aren' ; t going to intimidate me by any means of the imagination. I' ; m like an already trained soldier. So we had a little different attitude than maybe some of the kids from out of town that never had done that. So we weren' ; t as afraid. So Otis Johnson, [laughter] my mayor. I think he got suspended one time by jumping over the table at Dean Tate about something he said to him. VJ: He did what? KD: Got suspended. [laughter] VJ: By jumping on? KD: Jumping at Dean Tate. VJ: Oh. KD: Or threatened to be suspended. VJ: Okay. KD: That' ; s the sixties, see. All of this occurred in the sixties. The Civil Rights Movement is when all of this is occurring. So, the professors were okay. Some were very friendly and tried to help you, particularly those from the north. It wasn' ; t a big grade thing. They wouldn' ; t try to give you an F or something. They didn' ; t do that. VJ: Okay. KD: The biggest thing I learned in the end was that when I came over to the University of Georgia and they were telling us that you came from a poor black high school, you can' ; t graduate from there. So the mistake I made, I came over looking for the genius, all these white geniuses I was supposed to meet. And I spent all these years [laughter] and come to find out there were no geniuses. They weren' ; t any more smarter than I was. [laughter]. I did come out--what you had here at that time-- you have to remember you had the cream of the crop black students. You didn' ; t come unless you were academically good. VJ: It sounds like athletically good too. Just well rounded. KD: Yeah I was raised as a football player. So everybody was here. So all the kids I went to school with, you know you got Dr. Zell Phillips [Dr. Rogsbert Phillips-Reed] that left here and went to Atlanta and got her medical degree. She is one of the top surgeons in Atlanta now. Dr. Anderson Williams who is retired from Morehouse now as a professor. Harold Black was on the Federal Reserve. Margaret Davis(?) who was a CPA with the IRS. Penny Colepenny(?) became a big author. Mary Blackwell who got a PhD and became a doctor at--not a medical doctor but a PhD. She is still teaching at FAMU [Florida A& ; M University]. She is on the Board of Regents down there. It' ; s amazing how fighting surge turned out, it really was. VJ: It turned out really well. KD: Joe Sell got his law degree. Left and went to Miami. Just a long list. Those are my people. VJ: And it sounds like you stayed in contact with each other. KD: Well I do because I' ; m here. They all know that I' ; m here. VJ: Okay. KD: So they all call or whatever because they know I' ; m in Athens. So we stay in contact, yes. VJ: And all of them are originally from Athens? KD: No, all of these people are from out of town. Most of them are from out of town. They still know that I' ; m here. VJ: No, I mean they originally grew up in Athens or are they from out of town? KD: No, no. VJ: No, some were from out of town. KD: No. The majority of the students were eventually were black students from out of town, eventually. We had a little basic core out that started from Athens and then. But the first people that came in were not from Athens. VJ: Right. KD: Probably maybe one that I have not heard from and unfortunately some funerals I' ; ve been to that went to school with me. So, some of the whites I still remember that I was in undergrad with. Some of them, strangely enough some of the people I was in undergrad with that were white students, boom! I ended up with them in law school. VJ: Oh wow. KD: So they were in my law school and I had great dealings with them. And when I graduated as seniors in my law school class everybody took a year off before they came back to law school and then they were in my law school class. VJ: Sounds smart. KD: I' ; ve been knowing them ever since I was 19 years of age. So I still see some of them. When I got back to my law school reunion and there they were, still there. And being a lawyer I would see them, the ones that went to law school. I see them periodically. And some of them are still in Athens. Some of them I went to undergrad and law school with and still see them. VJ: And you went into the military before you went to law school right? KD: Right, I only stayed in the military for 8 weeks. VJ: 8 weeks, okay. KD: That' ; s how I ended up in the math program. They had a rule was that-- I was going to plan to get my master' ; s in business but you had to start in the fall. By the time I got out of the military the fall semester had started so that' ; s how I ended up in the math program for a couple of months. And they gave me a little money so I was just there working on my masters. I' ; m glad I did. I took a little Calculus and all those things and it benefited me later in life to be able to have that knowledge. And then I decided then that this is not for me so I went to work. VJ: Went to work. KD: Then I found out that I was not happy with being a cost accountant at Lockheed. I stayed there a year and decided I' ; d come back to law school. Because I still had that civil rights thing in the back of my mind. VJ: Okay, right. KD: So I said, no, I' ; ll go back to law school and there I was. And I was the first black student that had gone undergrad to law school. I was the first Double Dog. Black Double Dog. VJ: Wow. KD: And so ended up telling the dean of the Law School that I was coming to the Law School and he said here' ; s the test. And so I ended up in there the fall of 1970 going to law school. And Justice [Robert] Benham who was in law school had just graduated. And Justice [Robert] Benham was the first black person to be elected statewide in an office. He was elected to the Court of Appeals. And then he was appointed to the Supreme Court of Georgia. And he used to be the president of BASA. We used to call him Bully Bob because one day he was down there in the Black House. And we had set him up to talk to Dean Tate and Dean Sims, he was the assistant dean then. About some of the things we wanted to do, what we wanted, what we were demanding and if they did not concede to our demands we were going to march and tear up the computer room. And so he came back and said Dean Tate did not agree to demands so we are going to fake like we are going to march and tear up the computer room. And one of my buddies in the back said, you' ; re not going to do it. You' ; re just a bully. So we called him Bully and nicknamed him Bully Bob. VJ: Bully Bob, okay. KD: Now, I can tell these stories now because he next month will retire from the Supreme Court of Georgia. VJ: Okay. KD: Yes, so he is going to retire from the Supreme Court next month. Matter of fact he came in and spoke at a Hunter Holmes lecture last month. Yes, he was the speaker. But we were the team that in my generation was forgotten about. Completely. We were the army so the -- I' ; m not being critical that the university gave the impression that after Hamilton Holmes and Charlayne Hunter that everything was hunky dory, like just love from there on. Oh no. That is not the way it occurred. We had plenty of fights and things and demands at that time that we fought for. That to make it easier for the students that came after us. That was a -- and we used to go to the Thespian Debate Society? Is it still there? I guess so. VJ: I think so. KD: We used to debate over there in the hall that was over there. We used to go to the debate team with the white students about civil rights stuff. And so forth, we did all that. Well I say this, I think a lot of people say, ' ; Boy I feel sorry because you went to the University of Georgia undergrad. Taking all that flack that you had to take.' ; I would not give anything for my experiences. Thank God for the University of Georgia because I had a unique experience. VJ: Yes. KD: We used to have a saying that now, ' ; If you really want to know if you are black just come up to a predominantly white college like the University of Georgia and they' ; ll let you know real quick' ; . I remember we had one fraternity that had the confederate flag. You know we had a problem with their confederate flag and they used to fly it out in front of their frat house over on Lumpkin street. And we were trying to figure out how we were going to get our hands on that flag. [laughter] And one guy says we going to get a bow and arrow. [laughter] And I said, ' ; You can' ; t hit the side of a bird with a bow and arrow. What are you some kind of idiot?' ; So we went through all that. Now back to my sign. My sign. We had this sign when Georgia played Houston. So Georgia had gone down the year before. I can' ; t remember exactly what year it was. It had to be 1965. No, it was later than that. 1967 or something like that. They had gone down to play University of Houston and they had some black players on their team. They had this one all-American Warren McVeigh. Little scout back and they killed Georgia. 35 to 7 or something like that. And so he was supposed to come to Georgia. And this is the first time a black player was going to officially play in a game in Sanford Stadium. VJ: Yes. KD: So the stadium had been double decked now. Nationally televised game. So we stayed up all night. We made this long sign because we wanted everyone on television to see this sign. This long sign that says ' ; Houston defeats Georgia with Black Power' ; because Houston was favored in the game. This long sign. So it was about 3 o' ; clock when we finished that sign. VJ: 3 o' ; clock in the morning? KD: 3 o' ; clock in the morning. The game started at 2 so we had a good little sleep. So we designated a person to bring the sign to the stadium. So he gets to the stadium and he doesn' ; t have the sign. We said, where is the sign? He says, it was rolled up and they still didn' ; t let me bring it in. They didn' ; t know what was on it but they still wouldn' ; t let me bring it in. He was checked through the check-in. So I said go back to the Black House, get the sign and throw it over the fence. So he went back and got the sign. So it wasn' ; t secure or anything like it is now. So we get the sign and we take it out on the second row. And beautiful sign. By that time, they tried to put the sign down and a fight broke out. God takes care of fools and children cause we are on the second deck. It was a wonder no one got thrown over the second deck and got killed. So we held up the television for about twenty minutes out there fighting for this sign and the police finally showed up and someone jerked the sign down and it fell to the bottom. VJ: And that was that. KD: So the fighting stopped and the television came on. VJ: So the TV wasn' ; t on during this fight, at all. KD: Wasn' ; t on during the fight. That' ; s a shame. VJ: Mm, hmm, hmm. KD: So here is what happened, they were running up and down the field and if you know anything about football terminology, they had gained 500 yards. It was a guy named Paul Gibson fumbled the football 3 times. Big running back fumbled the football three times on the 1-yard line and Georgia ended up tying the game 10 to 10. Something I was thinking about as I was walking off the field I said, that' ; s a shame. If you can' ; t beat them, you might as well just join them. Someone told me that my sign was in Archives here somewhere. I would love to see that sign, again. So that' ; s what happened. Finally, the University finally decided to - University of Georgia was one of the last schools to give black athletes football scholarships. The first was Vanderbilt, then Tennessee had a guy play split end and Vanderbilt had a basketball player. Played during the time I was in school, when I was in school the games were not all played in the coliseum. They had Woodrow Hall and it was too small so you had to pull straws to get in. Because all of the students couldn' ; t get into the basketball game. VJ: You pulled straws to get in the basketball game? KD: Yeah VJ: Like if you had the shortest straw you could get in type thing? Ok. KD: That' ; s how you got in. Then they built the coliseum. My daddy helped build the coliseum. He was a carpenter and a bricklayer and he built the coliseum. So I was in school when he built the coliseum. VJ: Wow KD: And they used to have concerts in the coliseum and black performers used to come in and Isaac Hayes and Temptations, whatever whatever, Ray Charles. I remember when Ray Charles came in there one night. They still had curfews particularly for women. You had to be back in the dorm at a certain time. So the curfew was- time was running out. So people were getting up to leave and Ray was playing and he wanted to know what this was all about, what was the disturbance all about. And they told Ray the reason and Ray told them, sit down. Tell everybody to sit back down. Ray playing now. They can [laughter] violate the curfew tonight. So that-- VJ: So no one got in trouble KD: Nobody got in trouble. And so brought a lot of black performers to the University of Georgia, the student council, they brought a lot of black performances to the coliseum. I don' ; t know if they still do or not. I don' ; t think they do, do they? VJ: I don' ; t at the coliseum, every now and then at the stadium but I don' ; t remember at the coliseum. Well I don' ; t know if the coliseum could hold bring in those big names like that KD: They had 10000 seats 20000 seats or whatever they have would probably not be big enough, and I don' ; t think they do anymore. A lot of black performers came. James Brown and James Brown used to perform at halftime at the football games. He used to sing " ; I' ; m Black and I' ; m Proud" ; at the football games. VJ: At the football games. KD: Yeah, halftime yeah. VJ: There was only eight students but you did still have the black section during those games or- KD: The black sections finally when they started redoing the stadium went away. VJ: During that time KD: So you could take it like everybody, sit wherever you want. VJ: Where ever they want to, ok KD: Once they did the double decker seats, it went away. So that is no longer in play and the strange thing about it now is go to reflect and I' ; m a tough guy about Georgia and its population. What officially happened to the University of Georgia is that I was a lawyer when they filed in the University of Georgia affirmative action program. I' ; m back in town now. I' ; d been back in town a good while. The University of Georgia had an affirmative action program. It was based on Harvard' ; s model and I didn' ; t get in under the affirmative action program. I got in under tokenism- I can tell the truth about that. Lee Parks filed that lawsuit, we called the whoop cases. It' ; s not that old, it' ; s maybe 15 years. People have never heard of it. He went way down into Brunswick, Georgia and he went judge shopping and he filed his case down in Brunswick Georgia. You can sue the University of Georgia from anywhere. So he sued them in federal court down there to get a federal judge. So the old program was if you had been a graduate of the University of Georgia your kid would get a point or two for legacy. And white males would get a point, just being a white, just being a male because what they did was they balanced the campus 50-50, males and females. When I used to go to football games and so forth, out there for a while, when I was in school for a while they all wore suits and ties. VJ: At the football games? KD: Yeah, so you always figured that you had to understand they had the Lucy Cobb House- I' ; m from Athens and it still existed when I was a kid - that predominantly the University of Georgia was male so the females came up to the Lucy Cobb house to- it still exist right now- to date and mingle with the males to have a mate. Yup still there now. It doesn' ; t function as a church in school but it' ; s probably a sorority house now. So they balanced it 50/50. Now when Lee Parks out of Atlanta filed that case, it' ; s strange. Who was he trying to hurt, here, see? And I' ; ll tell you something about that when he filed that case they had quite a few black students at the University of Georgia then. So we did, we took all the black SAT scores and the white SAT scores and we stacked them. His plaintiffs were saying that they were not getting admitted because the black students were taking their place. Their test scores were always lower than the lowest black SAT score. So it was three cases and we kicked them out every time because they didn' ; t have any standing. Until one day he filed the third case, in the middle of that litigation Justice Clarence Thomas on the Supreme Court wrote a decision called ' ; The Sage' ; and it said if it looked like it appeared to be discriminatory they would have a standing to go forward. That is how the University of Georgia -Harvard plan ended. So when they did that they brought about problems because they could not have an Affirmative Action program for a while, even though I think the universe sort of- you know, you could always craft a program not just based on test scores and grades. The University of Georgia was like the BIG 10, they used to say they had a formula. Test scores and grades you got in, test scores and grades you got in and they would take the last admittees and you could say I read the essay and I like them, I think they still should get in. So that' ; s still pretty much the case today to some extent but to get into the University of Georgia. So that happened and as a result the number of black students went down. I don' ; t know if it was the perception but I haven' ; t had a chance to study- did the number of applicants go down? Did the number of black students just went down? I don' ; t know. I think as a result the number of applicants went down because everybody had this perception that they could not get in. So at first when the applicants went down, the number of black students went down. So that is still the problem today. VJ: And you were saying there was a point towards you if you were a male. A male period? Or a- KD: Yup, a male period, white males got the preference. That was before you even started coming. Before you even started they had preference to get in to keep the student body balanced. So who did he hurt? So if you look at the University now, it' ; s not balanced anymore. They' ; ve got more white female students than they' ; ve got male. Probably almost 70% female. He hurt- I don' ; t know that he hurt white females, I don' ; t know as far as socially? Interesting question. That' ; s an interesting question. It' ; s not balanced. Not everybody has a date. Interesting question. VJ: That is true. KD: Sometimes what you intend to do does not turn out the way you intended to do it. Intended to happen. And it also hurt black males because I know that they' ; re not many black males at the University because of those cases, so far. But those are interesting phenomena as that goes on. And then we have this Hope thing. Do you know about the Hope? They took the cap off Hope VJ: Yes, they took the cap off Hope. KD: And when they took the cap off Hope, all the students from north of Atlanta, the wealthy part of Georgia, came to Georgia. 80% of the students at the University of Georgia are from north of Atlanta. And now every student over here is on HOPE [Scholarship]. So as a result, north Atlanta has some of the best high schools in the country. So the SAT score went up and so it brought about problems. How they are going to resolve that I don' ; t know. But that' ; s a problem that we have today. But- so back in my days at law school- so I came back to law school and some of the people I knew so I didn' ; t have fear because, what they used to do in bringing students in particular to graduate school. Guess what they used to do? They didn' ; t look down at the undergrad kids (within UGA), they would go to Morehouse, Spellman, and try to get their best students to come. If you look at the- if you would go and look at the early graduate student/professional schools. All those kids came from those schools. They didn' ; t come from- they act like we did not exist. For a while they act like- if you wanted to get a kid to go to say vet school here, or go to law school you think would look down at your student body first. No they didn' ; t. They- of course there wasn' ; t that many blacks at that school at that time. But all those kids came from Tuskegee and whatever and whatever. They didn' ; t invite the black kids from [UGA] undergrad into those schools. It' ; s interesting. They would try to get the top black students at Spellman or Morehouse to come to Georgia. So the kids I was in Law School with was from Morehouse, Spellman and whatever. VJ: Could you tell any differences with the education or any of the culture or anything? KD: No, the difference in the culture was that -- you know, they had been to black high schools and black colleges. So they come in a little more timid than I did because they had never been into a predominantly white institution. So they came in a little more timid than I did. You know I was already used to that, see. So when you talk to me you' ; re talking to a different person. VJ: Right, right. So glad to be talking to you too. KD: So I was a little bit different. I was a little more pushy. So in law school we started what we called BASA - Black American-- and I started that. VJ: And what' ; s it called? KD: BASA. Black American Student Association. VJ: Okay. KD: They still have it now. VJ: So you started the BSU and then you started one in law school as well. KD: Yes. But these were all national organizations, now. VJ: Okay. KD: Every law school has one. So I started one here. VJ: Alright. KD: So that is how all of that occurred. And so now my only concern about the University now is the number of black kids at the University. I remember once when I was in law school, I went to Chicago and we were having a convention up there in Boston and I met a girl from the University of Oklahoma, whatever. Met the football team, a bunch of black players. And I said I know you guys got it made in University of Oklahoma all those black students you' ; ve got. Man y' ; all must really got it made. And she said Ken the only thing at the University of Oklahoma black are black football players and that we have the same problem. The only thing is the University of Georgia football players. It is amazing to me as alumnus, on Saturday morning we all gather everybody from the city of Athens, all black across the state and pull for the University of Georgia, pull for a school that that kid cannot get in. So we have come full circle from the time we had the colored section. Same identical thing. If you don' ; t know your history you' ; ll repeat itself. So those things would have to be addressed about the number of black students here. That' ; s my biggest concern with the University of Georgia now. And the Law School also. It' ; s dropped some. My son graduated from the University of Georgia Law school. And when he was over there we had 100 black students I think now we just have 50. VJ: Oh, wow. KD: So those are things I' ; m concerned with as I get older. Now at the same time I have no idea of the number of black applications they get because I don' ; t work here so I don' ; t know. But the University of Georgia has an interesting history as to what the past was. It wasn' ; t like -- I never met Frances Early. Did not know she existed until I was 45 years old. VJ: Oh really? KD: Yes, never heard of her. VJ: Of course she was in grad school, right? KD: She transferred in for six months from my understanding. Didn' ; t even know she was here. So the only people I know was that crew I was with that was in the middle of the civil rights movement that was determined that they were going to make their mark in regards to changing things at the University. Has it changed? I don' ; t know. I mean you' ; ve got different kids now - both black and white kids on campus so those are interesting questions. History will determine. And that is about all I can say. [laughter] VJ: Well tell me a little bit about some of your early education in grade school. Did that make a difference as far as your fighting spirit because that' ; s bold? Because it' ; s like: well I can' ; t down here in Savannah so I' ; m just going to go to UGA. I' ; m just going to see if I can get in. Why not give it a shot in the midst of all of this civil unrest going on. KD: Well I didn' ; t think I would have a problem getting in because the people in front of me I had gone to high school with, I had done just as well as they had grade-wise and SAT scores so I didn' ; t see the problem. VJ: So are you talking about the white students. KD: No, the black students, Mary Blackwell and Dr. Fir. VJ: Of the ones already at UGA. KD: There was already three at UGA when I applied. So I didn' ; t think it was going to be a problem. Here I am, President of the Honor Society, captain of the football team -- VJ: Gotcha. KD: You know, I didn' ; t think it would be any problem. Well the thing that surprised me, I thought that I got a little brainwashed saying that you can' ; t go to school with these students. My junior year I' ; m out their teaching foreign students about base 2, the binary system. The computer ran off the binary system. They had this big computer lab with the cards but it ran off what you called the base 2 system. You' ; ve got all kinds of base. You have base 2, base 10, whatever base. We used base 10 system. The computer system used the base 2, you know 1+1 is 2, 1 was 11. We don' ; t use it anymore but that was the computer operating. And people came in from Norway. I think I had a girl from Norway and three or four of them that I had to teach the base 2 system to. VJ: You were teaching them as a part of your education program? Or were you just-- KD: Just friends. Same math class trying to get and understanding. VJ: So this is all a part of your Math class that you were -- KD: Yes, computer math class, yes. So I still haven' ; t found this genius. And then it dawned on me in the end, that there was no genius but it took years for it to dawn on me in that. Then I got a little pet historian and during that time black high schools were outperforming white high schools, academically. VJ: Academically. KD: They were in my time. And it took it a long time for them to admit the truth. But the studies were done and yes. I was -- I know what a data modifier is. I had the math class of trigonometry in high school. I had all that stuff and some kids I used to go to class and it was in math class and some kids came from a good high school. And they would say in calculus --those students would say to the professor-- they would do it like this. And I would say, whoa we aren' ; t going to do any Calculus because I haven' ; t had any Calculus so you can forget that. You know my school didn' ; t teach Calculus. They taught pretty much and all the students who came through here, you know. They didn' ; t have any academic problems. All my crowd, they graduated. They graduated. Like I said, they were good high school students. You didn' ; t come unless you were a good high school student. VJ: Yes, you had to be. KD: Yes, you didn' ; t come. And it was all really smart kids. And they may have gotten a little civil rights blood in them and they got rowdy sometimes [laughter]. VJ: Well at least academically everybody was sound so you didn' ; t have to worry about that as much as so you go after your civil -- KD: Yes, everybody was academically sound. I can' ; t even remember, ever recall any black kids I was in school with ever flunking a course. I don' ; t think that happened. I don' ; t even recall that or anybody ever saying that teacher didn' ; t give me a fair grade in a sense. So one day I was looking for the genius. And I was in a cost accounting class. At that time everybody went to business school you had to take cost accounting. You don' ; t have to do that now unless you are an accounting major. VJ: Ok. cost-- KD: Cost accounting. That' ; s the accounting, say, if you made an automobile, it was going through the assembly line you' ; ve got to figure out how much the automobile costs. VJ: Okay. KD: So you have to allocate the things to put on the car, the lights that it costs, the electricity, the salary of the people, that determines what the cost of the car is. And it' ; s tough. Cost accounting is tough. Lot of business students regret taking cost accounting. So I was in class one day and came in on a cost accounting test and I made a 96 and another guy made a 100. Everybody else flunked. Boom! Everybody flunked that test. They made 50' ; s, 60' ; s. The professor comes in and she says Mr. Johnson and Mr. Dious stand up. She said, you guys had my test didn' ; t you? I didn' ; t have the test. And so she started asking questions and he could not answer them. And then he finally admitted that he had the test. Now, I' ; m angry because how he gets the test and I couldn' ; t get it?! [laughter] KD: So I got to keep it, you know, competitive. [laughter] VJ: Well it sounds like that even though you didn' ; t have the tests you still would have been able to answer her questions though. KD: I figured it out, I figured it out. VJ: Wow. KD: So I' ; m looking for the genius and I' ; m just wasting my time. I didn' ; t have the test. [laughter] Cause normally when you came out of a cost accounting test you got a C. Nobody got an A. You know she did give me a B and I was the only B in the class. VJ: But did you really earn a B or did you really earn an A. KD: Ahh, I don' ; t know. Well I think they just had a philosophy that they weren' ; t going to give anybody and A. VJ: Okay. KD: So I lived with it. VJ: So that is how you ended up over there with Lockheed didn' ; t you. Those grades that you had. KD: Yes, I had good undergrad grades. So that is how I ended up in Lockheed and then I decided I didn' ; t want to be -- you know I majored in finance. My undergrad major was finance. I didn' ; t want to be an accountant. I didn' ; t want to hit a machine everyday adding up numbers. When I was at Savannah State the difference in the schools were when I was at Savannah State they had calculators, one calculator. We had to get in line to use it. When I came to Georgia business school, they had so many in the basement the guys used to go down there and play with them in general. The difference in facilities. VJ: So you had to wait in line to use a calculator in Savannah State but at Georgia, what did you say? KD: It was just plentiful. VJ: It was plentiful. KD: Yes, difference. VJ: Nice. KD: So that' ; s my experience as I can recall at the University of Georgia. I had a ball. Of course I didn' ; t want to say-- You just not going to let me come in and you going to depress me. You just going to make it miserable and it' ; s going to be a miserable times of my youth. That just wasn' ; t going to happen. But instead it turned out to be a unique experience. I wouldn' ; t take anything for it. Yes, I wouldn' ; t take anything for it. Really wouldn' ; t. You know, it helped when I came back to Athens. I was the first black attorney in Athens. VJ: Yes. KD: So, I had gotten used to going through all that. I' ; m well trained. The University of Georgia well trained me for all that. So that did not bother me. VJ: And when you were younger because you were exposed to this in high school, so how did your parents feel about your exposure? Did they know what you were doing or? KD: At Georgia. VJ: Yes, well you were ready to fight for -- KD: You know they didn' ; t ever-- as long as the grades were there I buried one of the-- I wouldn' ; t say I buried but I spoke at his funeral [inaudible] Lassiter, good friend of mine in high school but he came back here. He was one years or two years in front of me but he came back here to work on his masters and he died. He' ; s from Athens so I spoke at his funeral and I was telling some of the things we did together and his mother said, I didn' ; t know all that. I didn' ; t know all of that was going on. [laughter] I don' ; t think my mother knew-- VJ: Knew everything you were doing. KD: One thing my mother told me when I came to the University of Georgia - I really didn' ; t want to go but I had to go - she says, I' ; ll tell you what? They are teaching it. They can' ; t avoid you from learning it. You' ; re in the same class. You just learn it. You just learn it. And that is what I had to do. I never had a black professor. I never went to class with a black student except one quarter. Dr. Furr was in the business school for a moment. He decided to go to south campus. He finally got a PHD in botany. He decided he didn' ; t want to be a business major. And I said Marion, you know, they teaching over there that calculus and that science stuff, you sure you want to go back over there? [laughter] He said yeah, he threw up his hand and the next thing you know he has a PhD in botany. VJ: Ok. KD: So he didn' ; t have any problems. He was my high school classmate. VJ: Ok. KD: I told that at his funeral. He just--boom--just didn' ; t bother him. That chemistry and stuff didn' ; t faze him at all. VJ: He just went through. KD: He just went through it, yeah. VJ: The majority of time there were no other black classmates. KD: After that time there were no other black classmates. That was just one quarter. And we were taking general accounting because we were on the quarter system at that time. After that he decided and he left. So that' ; s the only time I had a black student. I used to be in classes with -- You know there was a history class or and such or whatever and I always had to defend the black point of view. That was quite common. Yes, you had to say what you had to say. VJ: You spoke up. KD: I spoke up! As to what was what. I just wasn' ; t quiet at all. VJ: And how did the majority of the classes receive your outspokenness. Did they learn from? Did you feel like you were teaching? KD: Yes. To the students, if I had to give them a grade, I would give them a B, a B+, a B. VJ: So they heard you? KD: They never tried to call me any names or anything like that. If you did we were going to fight. Like I said I was a football player. I wasn' ; t going to get in any corner and cry. We were going to go at it. None of that, at least, happened to my face. It finally got the point where we would go down to Stegeman and play some pickup basketball. I was in the shower, no big deal. That was no big deal. Sometimes as of matter of fact we would play the University of Georgia basketball team down in Stegeman hall. VJ: Did you? KD: Yes, they would come over and sometimes we would beat the University of Georgia basketball team. Now the thing that you regretted the most was that you were better than some of those players. I remember Herby White got a trial for the Hawks. He used to play for the University of Georgia but because we didn' ; t have that opportunity we didn' ; t get to try out for the Hawks and so forth. So that was heartbreaking right there in that sense. VJ: And you never did try to go out for the basketball team. KD: No. No. Matter of fact, the way I ended up playing again was a friend of mine that was in school named Carter. He said he wanted to go out for the football team but he didn' ; t want to go out by himself. So come spring practice he wasn' ; t in school. VJ: Oh. KD: So we had already told Dooley that we were going out for the football team and my father said if you tell a man something then you have to go forward. Can' ; t back out. So the first day I went out for that football team, everybody was out there. And the minute I hit the field it just [clap] stopped. And so they put this big guy in front of me. During that time in football they used the term ' ; running the gap.' ; They don' ; t do ' ; running the gap' ; anymore. They don' ; t let us play gap ball anymore. And they put this big white guy and everybody just stopped. They were going to see what was going to happen. And so I just had to knock him to the other side of the field and that is what I did. VJ: Oh. KD: Because at that time- you have to remember in the south they didn' ; t realize that black players had caught up in regards to - you know football games is a game of fun. You have to start early. Just like anything, like playing the piano. If you are going to be a good football player, you start at five years old. And they didn' ; t realize that we had to play that well because we had a particular line or something. But I had been taught all that - the right stance and everything when I was a kid and then when I was in high school. So nothing different in that regard. It was strange if you ever think about the south. They always thought that in the south that we could not play basketball. The first major basketball player that went north was a guy named Walter Frasier. He was older than I was. Played for Southern Illinois. First black guy out of the south that got a scholarship to go to another school to play basketball. He played for Howard High. That was big news. And then later he played for the New York Knicks and won three or four championships as point guard. VJ: Aha. KD: So we were not known to be basketball players. We were not known to be football players because you gotta remember that before my generation my daddy when I grew up and started out baseball was king. VJ: Okay. KD: My daddy never understood the game of football. VJ: Okay. KD: All that was evolved very, very fast. VJ: Did you play baseball? KD: Played baseball. VJ: You played all of them, didn' ; t you? KD: Played all of them. VJ: But your favorite was? KD: I don' ; t know. Actually my favorite was football but I got hurt at it. During that time things were evolving in the south. We had a little Y [YMCA]. Matter of fact I was on the swim team. VJ: Yes. KD: All of this stuff was evolving so fast. So when I was a kid we would go to Atlanta and play the little Y' ; s out of Atlanta. That' ; s where I first met Walt Frasier. We played against each through Y through high school. Yes, so that' ; s how that evolved. It evolved that fast. It was evolving so fast that with those type of things. So when I came here, I was sort of the protected generation in the sense that I was still in segregation. I still ' ; back of the bus' ; thing was there when I was 7th and 8th grade. Eighth grade I started marching. But my mother would not let me go over and socialize and work with whites. I didn' ; t know anything about the white community. So I never got embedded to saying ' ; yes, sir' ; , ' ; no, sir' ; . I didn' ; t know anything about that. I didn' ; t think about that at all. So I never got embedded into that. Idea being, she would sometimes work, babysit or something, and I think I had one shirt she brought me from a white guy, a hand me down shirt. When I got out of law school I ended up suing him. Not about the shirt but something else. VJ: Wow. KD: And he asked me how my mother was doing. VJ: Wow. KD: And Walter Danner who is the registrar here, he was a surveyor. So when I became a lawyer, we had two surveyors here. He was the cheapest so I would call him to do surveys for me. He would come by the office and I' ; d give him a survey and I would pay him. And he would remember me from that time. VJ: So even though you were kept apart from the white community during that time, but you didn' ; t develop a fear for -- I guess you weren' ; t hearing or exposed to the negative? KD: Oh, I was exposed to the negative. You know I saw the Klan and all that. VJ: Right. But you had no fear of them when you clashed? KD: I don' ; t think it was coming from fear. I think it was coming from cultural. If you are raised that way to think that whites are superior because you said ' ; no, sir,' ; , yes, sir' ; . VJ: Right. KD: Some folks were saying yes, sir, no, sir to the [white] kids. I wasn' ; t raised that way. My parents wouldn' ; t, my mother just protected me from that. So it never got-- that kind of culture never got embedded in me like that. So as a matter of fact I have any kind of association with the white community at all until I came to the University of Georgia. It was the first time. And when you walked on campus it would just affect you, just take your breath away because you walk from Broad street into a completely white world. Boom. And everything you can see all white. The only time that you would see a black person would be a janitor. As a matter of fact, I knew some of the janitors because I am from Athens. And that was the only time you would see-- as a matter of fact I would see one of the places, I can' ; t remember what dorm - not dorm but classroom, somebody had knocked something over. And a little white girl tapped me on the shoulder and asked me if I would get it up because she assumed I was a janitor. Tapped the wrong person. I just went off. VJ: And I' ; m sure you didn' ; t whisper your response. KD: No, I did not. [laughter] Tapped the wrong person. Let me tell you something. VJ: Oh wow. KD: Yep, that happened. That really did. So those are my experiences yes. VJ: And I imagine that there were quite a few whites on campus who were not exposed to - KD: Blacks. VJ: Yes. KD: They had not been exposed to blacks in regards to sitting beside them in class. They had been exposed to them-- remember when I was kid they had married housing. Some of the students, you got married earlier then and the students had black maids. VJ: Oh, okay. I didn' ; t think about that. KD: Yes, so they were not exposed. You' ; ve got to remember the south pushed hard against desegregation. Even with the football players and everything. See I remember all this stuff -- I gotta tell you a little story. It' ; s a true story. And you can look it up and fact check it. VJ: Ok. KD: I remember when I was a kid and George Wallace ran for governor of Alabama. Actually George Wallace had decided, him and the governor in front of him, that they were going to try to get together and solve some problems that blacks were having in Alabama. So he ran on the Liberty ticket. And he lost. But they had a guy named Flowers [civil rights activist] that ran as his Lt Governor and he won. So when George came back the next time with all this segregation stuff, words he used and everything and he won. So they didn' ; t like Flowers. They thought Flowers was too liberal as Lt. Governor so they framed him and put him in jail, in prison. And what happened was Flowers had a kid named Richmond Flowers, white guy, played football. Good football player. He was a high school all-American in Alabama. Flowers was fast. He used to go down to the black colleges and beat the black kids in the 100. He was a good ball player. So when he came to leave high school in Alabama he said he could not play for Alabama because they had put his daddy in jail. So he decided to play at the University of Tennessee. So this big game up one day between-- he was an All-American at Tennessee, running back. Between Alabama and Tennessee. And Alabama was down there just before the game someone had sent Richmond Flowers a hate letter. And Bear Bryant was upset and he wanted to know who in the so-in-so sent that letter to Richmond Flowers. And finally one of the big tacklers put up their hand. And he said, ' ; Boy, let me tell you something, you should have sent that letter to Richmond Flowers' ; daddy and not to him.' ; He said, ' ; Don' ; t you let Richmond Flowers beat me out there today.' ; And I' ; ll tell you something else that' ; s going to shock you. He says if I have any black/white players on my team ten years from now, it means I' ; ve had a bad recruiting year. They made a movie about that. Richmond Flowers story. Richmond Flowers went on and played 2 years with [inaudible] who lives in Florida now. They made a movie about it called the Richmond Flowers story. VJ: Wow. KD: So after that Bear had the power because he was supposed to have been the -- Bear Bryant, the number one coach in the world. And so when he started recruiting blacks then everybody else came in. Everybody else started. VJ: All the other teams started. KD: Yes. I mean he wasn' ; t the very first but that was the word because he couldn' ; t win anymore outside of the south. So he had to start recruiting black football players. Because for a while, University of Mississippi could not play against any black players. Matter of fact they had a good basketball team so in order to play in the NCAA tournament, they had to sneak off the campus without the consent of the governor or the president. VJ: Oh really. KD: They made a movie about that. Where you guys been? There' ; s a movie about that too. As a matter of fact, they had a reunion about that not too long ago about the guys that played in that game. Yep, all that happened. And you' ; ve heard the story about Sam the Bam Cunningham. You probably don' ; t know who that is. This had a lot to do with integration. He played for the University of USC. Southern California. So he came down to Alabama, played down there in Tuscaloosa and just killed Bear and that' ; s when Bear got real upset and he started recruiting more black players. The name of the story they all him Sam Bam Cunningham. That' ; s the story. That' ; s how all this stuff occurred. So everybody else started recruiting black players. So now we' ; ve got more football players over here that we have students. And that' ; s a problem. A real problem. A big 20 million dollars, 40-million-dollar athletic budget. So that' ; s a problem. Didn' ; t anybody ever taught you all this stuff? VJ: Well, you know I have a general idea. I know that sports really did pull us into the schools and everything but not the details. I didn' ; t keep up with sports really big. And even as a student here I only went to one UGA game. That' ; s enough. I like to watch them on TV. And half the time I didn' ; t know how football was played. We were actually swimmers growing up. So that was our-- KD: Where are you from? VJ: Warner Robins. We grew up swimming. My brothers barely played football. KD: Makes more sense. This ole leg hop around on [inaudible]. VJ: Oh yes. I want to say thank you for coming in for us today and having this great conversation with me. I appreciate all the information you shared today. video 0
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Athens, Georgia
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85 minutes
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University of Georgia Archives
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https://purl.libs.uga.edu/hargrett/har-ua20-002_0004/ohms
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Interview with Ken Dious, March 11, 2020
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Kenneth Dious was born in Athens, Georgia and attended Athens-Clarke County public schools. After graduating from high school, he attended Savannah State College and later transferred to the University of Georgia. At UGA he earned a degree in Business Administration in 1968. After a brief stint in the United States Army, and receiving an honorable discharge, Ken returned to the University of Georgia to pursue a Masters Degree in Math Education. Dious then took a position as a cost accountant with the Georgia Lockheed Martin Corporation in Marietta, Georgia. He returned to school a year later, entering the University Of Georgia School Of Law where he earned his Juris Doctor in 1973. In 1974 he opened a law office in Athens as a sole practitioner, becoming the first African American to do so in Northeast Georgia. In this interview Dious discusses his experience as one of the first African Americans to attend the University of Georgia. He shares details about his time as the first African American to wear a UGA football uniform, his experience as a young civil rights protester, and the benefits of starting the Black Student Unions at UGA as both an undergraduate as well as a student of the law school.
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har-ua20-002_0004
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Ken Dious
Venus Jackson
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audio
oral histories
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Political activists
United States--Civil rights
African American athletes
Sports
School integration
Athens Black History
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2020-03-11
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http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
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sound
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Georgia
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-
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Reflections on Georgia Politics Oral History Collection
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Georgia--History
Georgia--Politics and government
Politics and Public Policy
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The Reflections on Georgia Politics Oral History Collection consists of interviews with politically prominent Georgians conducted by Bob Short from 2006 to 2016. Interviewees include former governors, members of both the U.S. and Georgia Congresses, secretaries of state, lobbyists, journalists, lawyers, activists, and relatives of prominent politicians. Included with these oral histories are a few public programs recorded at Young Harris College in 2006-2007. Most interviews were recorded in the homes and offices of interviewees or in the Bob Short Oral History Studio at the University of Georgia. The conversations cover many topics at the intersection of politics and public life in modern Georgia, with a particular strength in gubernatorial contests, the Civil Rights movement, reapportionment, the development of Atlanta, the rise of the Republican party in Georgia, political journalism, and the interaction between religion and politics.<br /><br /><a href="http://georgiaoralhistory.libs.uga.edu/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=&range=&collection=9&type=&tags=OHMS&featured=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">View all OHMS indexed interviews in this collection here. </a>
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Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
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Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
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2006-2016
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http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
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Oral histories
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RBRL220ROGP
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Georgia
Oral History
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https://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL220ROGP-049/ohms
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5.3 Interview with Helen Lewis, September 15, 2008 RBRL220ROGP-049 RBRL220ROGP Reflections on Georgia Politics Oral History Collection ROGP 049 Interview with Helen Lewis finding aid Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies, University of Georgia Helen Lewis Bob Short 1:|11(2)|21(1)|30(6)|39(3)|51(5)|60(13)|68(2)|79(3)|87(2)|97(4)|117(7)|125(7)|134(2)|146(18)|157(9)|165(13)|174(1)|184(1)|196(2)|205(1)|214(11)|224(13)|233(11)|243(7)|256(16)|265(3)|274(8)|284(5)|294(3)|303(3)|314(3)|324(10)|334(1)|344(4)|352(18)|360(15)|368(15)|378(8)|394(11)|400(13)|413(8)|423(15)|433(2)|444(12)|454(13)|465(1)|475(4)|482(13)|493(13)|504(3)|513(11)|523(1)|532(15)|542(5)|561(1)|570(11)|580(14)|589(14)|625(2)|635(8)|652(9)|665(1)|686(3)|699(10)|713(10)|734(6)|751(14)|760(14) 0 http://youtu.be/18pzc2VRgiQ YouTube video English 8 Student political involvement We're glad to welcome Dr. Helen Lewis... Lewis remembers being one of the first 18-year-olds to vote, serving on the Student League for Good Government, and getting involved with the Jimmy Carmicheal election after graduating from Georgia State College for Women. She discusses her reaction to Carmichael's defeat in the election. She also discusses working as a ghost writer for Melvin Thompson, her marriage, and becoming involved with the YWCA. Georgia State College for Women ; Herman Talmadge ; Jimmy Carmichael ; student involvement ; Student League for Good Government ; voting 17 949 Social advocacy activism through YWCA I think it was such as state of depression and such a state of repression... Lewis talks about the repression of student activism on college campuses during the 1950s, and the decline of the social gospel. She talks about the influence of activists like Clarence Jordan who founded Koinonia farm--which became Habitat for Humanity--and the backlash to these instances of integration. Clarence Jordan ; Habitat for Humanity ; integration ; Koinonia farm ; student activism 17 1287 Backlash against early racial integration In looking back in history, what do you think was the turning point... Lewis talks about the creation of private schools in the south in order to avoid integration. She recounts her experiences of developing relationships with black people at a time when being seen together in public strictly regulated. Lewis also being arrested for racial integration of YWCA-hosted event, and the resulting public backlash and economic consequences. informal segregation ; integration ; private Christian schools ; public pressure 17 1960 Resurgance of segregationist politics in Georgia Let me ask you a question again about Carmichael. Lewis hypothesizes how Jimmy Carmichael's reelection would have affected racial integration in Georgia. She discusses how the social advocacy work of the YWCA and college organizations became covert and eventually disappeared due to the changing political climate of repression related to integration. censorship ; civil rights movement ; Jimmy Carmichael ; repressive politics ; segregation ; social advocacy ; YWCA 17 2372 Advocacy work for miners and Appalachia Atlanta's business establishment supported Ellis Arnall in his race against Eugene Talmadge... Lewis recounts moving to Virginia and losing direct involvement with the Civil Rights Movement. She discusses advocating for miners in Appalachia, starting one of the first courses in Appalachian studies, and her criticism against the Appalachian Commission. Appalachia ; coalfields ; mining ; social advocacy ; United Mine Workers 17 2808 Poverty / Civic education and student participation What did you think of Lyndon Johnson's war on poverty? Lewis comments on Lyndon Johnson's War on Poverty and the structural causes of poverty. She talks about the importance of a civic and political education and of service-learning, and she recounts a service-learning project she participated in through the YWCA. civic education ; land reform ; participation ; political invovlement ; service-learning ; war on poverty ; YWCA 17 3247 Teaching philosophy / 1946 gubernatorial election Well, you certainly have and you've had a wonderful career. Lewis describes herself as an 'organizer of students' and recounts being fired because of her radical teachings. Lewis and Short discuss the county unit system, contributing factors to the outcome of the 1946 election, and Governor Talmadge's oratory style. Lewis also briefly mentions working for Melvin Thompson. 1946 election ; community organizing ; county unit system ; Eugene Talmadge ; oration ; radical 17 oral history BOB SHORT: We' ; re glad to welcome Dr. Helen Lewis, former college professor, a long time educator, and a campaigner for Jim B. Carmichael in 1946. So it' ; s 1946. Jimmy Carmichael is running against Eugene Talmadge for governor and you were there. HELEN LEWIS: I had just graduated from college, Georgia State College for Women where we had gotten really interested in politics. Ellis Arnall had allowed 18-year-olds to vote and I was one of the first to be able to vote. As a matter of fact, I was able to cast my first vote for Franklin Roosevelt the last time he ran. And so we became very interested in trying to maintain the progressive government that Ellis Arnall had produced. And since he could not secede himself and had selected Carmichael, we became big Carmichael supporters in the college. And we formed a league of women voters, one of the first of young people, young women students, but we also formed something called the Student League for Good Government. And that was sort of, I think throughout the state. I know the University of Georgia had a Student League for Good Government. And so when the campaign started, they asked me and George Doss from the University of Georgia to come and be in the campaign headquarters and organize students for Carmichael. And so we did, and we lived in the campaign headquarters at the Piedmont Hotel all summer and had an office called the Student League for Good Government. And we organized students all over the state of Georgia. We had students in every county. We had them in giving out sound trucks. We had some Allen Collie, who was from Grantville, whose mother ran the women' ; s campaign for Carmichael. He was running around in a sound truck. He also flew an airplane and dropped leaflets in some places. We had students writing radio spots and doing those letters to the editor, making speeches at Kiwanis Clubs and anywhere that they were allowed to. But we had students organized I think in every county of Georgia. Well, in the headquarters they thought we were kind of a joke and we were called the children' ; s crusade and so there was a lot of joking with us and a lot of students hanging out there all the time. It was a very lively place and very exciting summer, and we were so sure we were going to win. And actually, we did bring in I think we always said 100,000 extra votes into that campaign more so than any campaign prior to that had ever had voted in Georgia. And so we took full credit for all of that, which probably wasn' ; t exactly true. But anyway, that' ; s how I was there and we were very excited. We were so sure we were beating both Rivers and because Ed Rivers was running, as well as Herman--as Eugene Talmadge. And the night of the election, we were just, you know, exuberant. We were so sure we were winning. We went over into the--visited the Rivers' ; Headquarters and talked about didn' ; t he look natural and treated it like it was a big funeral. And so we were just a--and then when the county unit votes came in and we had lost the election, it was a very, very sad place if you can imagine so. It was a really important time for me because I had just graduated from college and I was going to graduate school that fall. So I left the state and went to Duke University that fall. So I missed all the excitement when Talmadge died and Herman claimed the office and we had three governors. And so I was very--I just wanted to be back because it convinced me that I wanted to go into politics. SHORT: Well, did you have a political career after that? LEWIS: Well, not really. My idea at that particular time was I was going to go to--I' ; d already been accepted at Duke and I was going to go to Duke for a year and then I was going to come back and buy a county--a newspaper. And some of the people in the Democratic Party were all in favor of that and were going to help me do that. And then I would get into politics. So I was all determined to get into politics. Instead, I go to Duke. It' ; s right after World War II. Veterans coming in. I' ; d been at a woman' ; s college for four years and so what did I do is get married to a Virginian. Ended up at the University of Virginia and--but I did come back after the year at Duke and worked for Melvin Thompson. They called me after the court had decided that Thompson was the legal governor and I had made friends with Dewitt Roberts. And Dewitt Roberts was the sort of public relations ghost writer, he was called, the real ghost for Ellis Arnall' ; s books. As a matter of fact, I helped him do some research for The Shore Dimly Seen and so he just insisted I come back and work with the Thompson as Governor and be one of the ghost writers. So I worked there for the year after from ' ; 47 and we had a house across the street from the capital, which Herman Talmadge called the haunted house. And I think in one of his big editorials, I was named as the littlest ghost, or the smallest ghost or something and one of the things that I did was, well I answered a lot of letters. You know, the governor gets a whole lot of requests for information about certain things, about departments and what' ; s going on in this. So I just, I answered letters. He was doing a sort of a weekly sort of fireside chat kind of thing. I wrote some of those speeches and other speeches when he--I remember Dewitt Roberts had me write one he was giving to a fraternity here at the University of Georgia, and it was supposed to be glorifying the Old South. Well, I was pretty much an activist and a radical in those days and this was sort of a joke that I was going to have to right something supporting the glory of the old confederacy or something, which was not the sort of thing I wanted to write. So I did that. Also, one of the things I did was one of the legislators had a son in college who needed a term paper on the prison system. So I wrote a research paper for him on the history of the prison system in Georgia. So those were the kinds of jobs that I had in the haunted house. And I stayed there until June of ' ; 48, I guess, and that summer I--I' ; d married. I had married in that Fall of ' ; 47 so that while I was working there, I was married and we were living in a trailer out at Emory University on the campus for veterans who had come back from the war and who were--because what happened was my husband, who was a graduate student at Duke with me, when I came back to Georgia he came and enrolled in Emory. And we married, and I lived in this trailer in the middle of the campus between the post office and the cafeteria. So it was one of those little trailers that didn' ; t even have a bathroom in it and you had to sort of go up the walkway to a big trailer, which had all the bathrooms and here were all these wives, and children, and people running up as the students were going between the post office and the cafeteria. And I wondered how many young men decided never to get married based on seeing how we were living in this little slum in the middle of Emory University. But okay, that' ; s another story. But anyway, that' ; s where I was living. So that summer, I got asked to work with the YWCA office in Atlanta and I had been very active in the YWCA at Georgia State College for women and we had been actively involved in what I call the early civil rights movement because we were going to integrated meetings and things like that. So I was very interested in the YWCA. So I worked in that office that summer and that' ; s another story that I' ; ll tell you later, if you would like, about how a group of us got arrested and made the front page of the Atlanta Constitution for mixed dance. But that' ; s another story. SHORT: Let' ; s get back to-- LEWIS: Carmichael. SHORT:--the election of 1946. LEWIS: Okay. SHORT: Actually, Mr. Carmichael received more votes statewide than Governor Talmadge, but he was defeated by the county unit system. What was his reaction to that? LEWIS: Well, we were all just devastated. I mean and at that time, I think that stirred up the whole movement against the county unit system and then with James Mackie, who was at Emory, who began to lead a real campaign against that. And all of us were really, I mean it was a sad place that evening in our headquarters and a lot of people came by, and everybody was, you know, just sort of devastated because we had done, we thought, such a good job and we had brought in the votes. And it was--so I don' ; t remember any personal reactions that he had. I mean, I just remember the whole sense of distress on the part of everybody who was there. He was in and out of the campaign office, and as a matter of fact I had a room in the Piedmont Hotel, which was also used during the day for anybody who was there including Jimmy Carmichael, who would be need to change clothes, or dress, or take a shower, or shave. And so I was oftentimes going back to my room and finding Jimmy Carmichael' ; s clothes and this got to be quite a joke with the other students who would come and visit, and they' ; d say, uh-oh, what' ; s going on here. What is your role in this campaign. But he was not, I mean we were so busy, you know, organizing the students and keeping all of that going that there was not a lot of interaction with him. So in that sense, I' ; m not that clear on--I don' ; t think he hung around the office a lot that night. I think he probably went home to his family. I' ; m not sure. So that' ; s not-- SHORT: Do you recall what part, if any, Governor Arnall played in that race? LEWIS: No. He must have done some campaigning, but I don' ; t know. And I never saw him much either. SHORT: That race was typical of Georgia' ; s two-party system at the time. You had the Ed Rivers group, which included Governor Arnall and Mr. Thompson. Then you had the Talmadges who had prevailed for at least 20 years prior to that election. Did Carmichael have any real interest in politics after that election? LEWIS: Not that I know of because I was away during that next year at Duke and then I was back for a year in the--in the office, you know, working for Thompson. And I don' ; t remember him ever showing up, or hanging out, or anything. I think he just disappeared, went back home. We of course was in the haunted house, which was this house across the way and it was more like a press room. There were reporters in and out of there. They came to us for information. The Atlanta Constitution, Ken Turner, was that his name, Ken-- SHORT: Ken Turner, yes. LEWIS: Yeah, he would show up and check with what was going on with Dewitt Roberts and all of us, and it was--so we, there was things going on. I think this was the time when they bought Jekyll Island. There was a lot of that going on at the time. So I don’t think Carmichael, you know, had any relationship. Now, if he did over in the Capitol, that was kind of across the road and we would maybe go over to the office to pick up mail, and get our assignments, and that sort of thing. But that was our main responsibility. And after that, I don' ; t know that they--I don' ; t think the Student League for Good Government even continued on college campuses. I think it was a--such a state of depression and such a state of repression because up until that time, there had been sort of a safe period I felt, call it in Georgia under Ellis Arnall. And we were still going to integrated conference at Atlanta University, Paine College in Augusta. The YWCA was very active in opposing segregation, but there had been crosses burned on campus at GSCW. The woman who headed up this organization for the preservation of white women said that GSCW and Agnes Scott were communists schools because students were going to integrated meetings. So there was a lot of sort of activism going on in the ' ; 30s and the ' ; 40s. By the middle of the ' ; 40s, there was this, as I say, safe period. But Guy Wells, who was the president of GSCW, came to the YWCA and said, " ; I want you to keep doing these integrated meetings, but don' ; t tell me.” So what happened was all the activism went underground and I think, and that continued into that summer of ' ; 48. These things were secret, you know, and they were not recorded. I mean, you can go to the college newspaper now, look at all the ' ; 40s. There' ; s never a mention of any of those conferences or any of those things that were going on. In the ' ; 30s it was very open and in the newspapers. By that time it had gone underground and by the ' ; 50s, the Y had just sort of gone out of business almost. It became just Bible study and devotions, and all of the really activism, I mean when I was there, we had Clarence Jordan coming and speaking. We had Frank McAllister coming and speaking. SHORT: Tell us who Clarence Jordan is. LEWIS: Clarence Jordan was a Baptist preacher who had bought this land down in South Georgia and started an integrated farm. And he was harassed by the Ku Klux Klan. People in Americus wouldn' ; t even sell him seeds. He was run out of the Baptist church. It was a dangerous place there, but he continued and developed this Koinonia from which Habitat for Humanity developed and grew. And it still exists as a communal farm with--and they sell pecans, and fruitcakes, and things like that, and still have an ongoing operation. He died and after that it was not as active as it was before, but it' ; s still a business and still a cooperative farm. And Jimmy Carter even went there as a student, I think, and did a little work. And I mean it now has a good reputation. But in the early days it was like something that to be destroyed, something of a scourge on the good old South, you know. And anyway, those people came and talked, Lucy Randolph Mason was a real impressive, wonderful woman, a labor organizer. So those were the things that were happening. By the ' ; 50s, all of that was gone and the college no longer gave financial support to the Y and they encouraged the denominations, the religious denominations to take over. And so the whole activism, by 1960, a student got suspended and had to leave the college because she attended black conference in Paine and also went to black churches. So all the sort of student activism left the campuses and became part of SNCC, and SOC, and all of those other organizations. So if you wanted to be an activist then, you couldn' ; t do it through the college as you did in the ' ; 30s, and ' ; 40s, and ' ; 20s even. There were interracial meetings in the ' ; 20s and a lot of sort of activism on the part of in women' ; s, southern women' ; s colleges. When I tell that story to people that I was doing all this stuff in the ' ; 40s, that it was early civil rights movement, they say, " ; Oh, no, that didn' ; t start then. It started after ' ; 54. It started in the ' ; 60s.” But that was happening at that particular time. And so, but after Arnall and when Talmadge came back the segregationists really put such pressure on the colleges that they were afraid to do anything. And they soon got rid of Guy Wells, and he ended up working with the Southern Regional Council and supporting, working for the integration of the schools. And so it was a pretty interesting period of time. SHORT: In looking back in history, what do you think was the turning point in people of Georgia accepting racial integration as a way of life? LEWIS: I guess when Eisenhower sent the troops to Little Rock, when there was a real and Lyndon Johnson signed the civil rights act. I mean, it became clear that there was going to be a lot of pressure. I was in Virginia at that time teaching in a branch college of the University of Virginia. Prince Edward County and the Virginia schools, you know, refused to integrate and there were schools all over, and of course that was the beginning of all these little private Christian schools so that people could go--not go to the integrated schools. But it--there' ; s still a lot of racism and there' ; s still a lot of people homeschooling, and sending kids to private schools still in the south. But there' ; s a whole lot more acceptance and I think that' ; s why young people--some of the younger people who' ; ve grown up in integrated schools don' ; t have some of those phobias and problems that some of the older people in the--in--their parents or their grandparents had as credible changes, really, in terms of the amount of fear which they had had. I remember spending a week when it was back in the ' ; 40s, ' ; 44, I guess. I spent a weekend in the dormitory at Spellman living with black students, and eating in the cafeteria with black students and that was, you know, like the first time I' ; d ever been in a social relationship with black people, you know. And you couldn' ; t go out and eat together in public. And that was the same time when we all got arrested, I mean a little later, it was ' ; 48 when we got arrested in Atlanta and I was working with the YWCA. But anyway, I remember going, eating in the cafeteria and sitting by this, with black women. And one of them got up and left that was sitting next to me, and the other woman on the other side said, " ; Oh, I' ; m real sorry, but you know, she' ; s prejudiced against white people.” And it just shocked me because I thought, I' ; m supposed to be the one that' ; s prejudiced. I didn' ; t know prejudice acted both ways. So all of these were real eye opening experiences, which was sponsored through the YWCA. It was one of the very earliest of these sort of, you know, early civilized activities. And let me tell you about that summer of ' ; 48, if you don' ; t mind. Do you want to hear that? SHORT: Sure. LEWIS: Okay. I was--had been working in the haunted house and I was getting ready to leave and go to Virginia. So I took the job that summer. They needed somebody in the YWCA regional office, which was located I think on Lucky Street. It was and it was a building which had next to it the CIO offices and they had sort of a training center there where they were training union organizers. And we were next door. And so a group of seminarians came to Atlanta to do sort of work with poor people and help build houses, or ramps, or so forth. And there were two blacks in the group and the rest, they were from Vanderbilt, Yale, different colleges and seminaries. And they were sponsored by the interracial commission of Atlanta, I think and they were living on the black campus at Atlanta University. And, but they asked the YWCA if they would have a little reception for them. So we asked the CIO if we could use their little training room next door and so we had a reception for them. And I was there in the office so I invited all the YWCA women from GSCW who were in Atlanta that summer. Some had just graduated and had jobs, and one was working with the Red Cross, I think, or the Girl Scouts. It was the Girl Scouts. Others had jobs and others were just home for the summer. So we had a group come in and we were having a little reception, and we were doing some little dance like a little get together thing like the Virginia Reel. And the police come in. And they said, oh keep on, keep doing what you' ; re doing. And we looked at them and then they had us all sit down, and they called us out individually and said, what would your daddy think if he saw you dancing with a black man. They used the N word of course. So individually they did that to each one of us, gave us a ticket for disorderly conduct, disturbing the peace and then told us to go home and come to court later. So they didn' ; t take us to jail. And there was some preachers there and their wives. There was another black couple. So I think there were at least three black people and 18 white people. Something like that was the numbers. And so we went home. The next morning on the front page of the Constitution was mixed dance and listed everybody' ; s names and addresses. So I mean I had to call my father up in Cumming, Georgia. And I said, " ; Look at the paper.” You know, explain to your neighbors what' ; s going on. And so luckily he said, " ; Well, I' ; m proud of you.” But because he had been a pretty liberal anti-Talmadge person for years and the--but other students and other people, some of the girls lost their jobs. Some of them lost their--got run out of their apartments. Parents were really upset and, you know, wrote all sorts of letters back and forth, and telegrams to their daughters about, you know, what do you mean being in a mixed dance and that sort of stuff. Well, it appeared then again in the Sunday papers. It appeared in the Journal and the Constitution, which were two separate ones. And then of course, Herman got hold of it. So when we were supposed to go to court, the Klan was out. And so we got James Mackie from Emory as our lawyer, and I have a piece--he wrote up a piece describing what happened and for everybody' ; s family and for everybody to know. And there was a lot of complaints to Ralph McGill and everybody for doing that, and it was kind of a mistake. The police had been watching that place because they had integrated training sessions at the CIO. So they wanted to catch a CIO training session and instead they caught this bunch of YWCA girls and preachers, you know. And so it was a little embarrassing, but it was a very, I mean, a shocking experience for all of us. Finally, we all--Mackie got the charge dropped to disorderly conduct, got that and just disturbing the peace and we all paid $25 except for two or three people who lived in Atlanta and agreed--decided to go ahead and fight it through. But the rest of us had going back to school or had things to do. I was moving to Virginia and so we paid our $25 and that was the end of it. SHORT: Who was Mayor back then, do you remember? Was it Mr. Hartsfield? LEWIS: Might have been. I' ; m not--this would be ' ; 48. I' ; m not sure. But we should have--and I imagine the people who lived here and continued to probably made their complaints to the Mayor. But the rest of us just went our way and got out of it. But that was--and so, the whole, I mean there was this sort of open period I think when Ellis Arnall was there. There was, well, because he did not fight against the primaries being integrated. He did not fight against the transportation that was integrated during that period. There was a lot of little changes that happened and he was urged to, you know, try to fight against it and he didn' ; t. It was open and then he allowed 18-year-olds to vote and that' ; s how we got involved in politics and we were the first state to do that. And so I feel real proud that I was one of the first 18-year-olds that got to vote. Well, by the time I was in the campaign I was 20, 21, I guess at that point, but I was still pretty young and sort of idealistic. And it was right after the war, and we were going to have peace and never have war again. And I know one student and I were going around making speeches at Kiwanis about the United Nations and how important that was. So it was like, we thought, you know, the New South was with us until the segregationists came back and put such pressure on schools so that the schools have never--well the activism, students became active, but they were active without the cooperation of the administration because Guy Wells was a pretty remarkable president of that college. So anyway, that' ; s where we are. SHORT: Let me ask you a question about, again about Carmichael. I have here a statement that he made at speaking to students at Emory University in 1950 in which he told the audience, " ; I sicken of these people who are always waiving the confederate flag and telling us what a glorious heritage the South has. No one denies this heritage, but too many of our people want to keep on living on who they are and where they came from.” And he encouraged Georgians to embrace change and my question about Carmichael is, if he had been elected, do you think he would have taken steps towards racial harmony in Georgia? LEWIS: I think he would have tried. I mean I think, you know, he was still up against sort of a strong, powerful group of people in Herman and that crowd. I mean, Herman' ; s newspaper, the Statesman, New Statesman was just on everybody' ; s case. And so there was--and there was, but I do think like Ellis Arnall, he would have continued that more safer period for other groups to be active and do stuff. He might not have been able to do as much with his legislature as he would have wanted to do, but I think he would have made a period where--and I believe, well they did of course get rid of the county unit system. And that was, so there were progressive things happening in Georgia, but it was harder. It was much, much harder when you had, you know, Lester Maddox and the whole crowd, you know, in power there' ; s a limit to what, you know, colleges can do because they' ; re going to lose their money. And colleges were, I mean I know during the ' ; 30s, a group of YWCA girls at GSCW went to Fort Valley and had a day talking to black students and faculty. The word got out that they had caroused and had an orgy with black male students and this was, this woman who headed up, I' ; ve forgotten her name. Do you remember the name of the woman who headed up that Society for the Protection of White Women? She called Talmadge and sent letters to all of the legislature about this affair and Guy Wells had to fire the YWCA Secretary named Polly Moss. They claimed that she had negro blood because otherwise there would be no way in which she would have allowed those students to go down to Fort Valley. Well, it was at that point that she--that Talmadge, you know, when he got the whole school system discredited, you know, he required Guy Wells to get rid of the accountant firm because they were progressive democrats and had been working with the Y and taking students to interracial meetings. And made them fire another teacher and hire this woman who was a real segregationist. And the only way he was going to get any money was at that time. So having a segregationist, a strong segregationist in power meant that the colleges and universities, well all people who were relying on state funding to tow the ground. You know, so it would have made a big difference. It could have made a big difference in the activity of students and in the type of teaching that you got. I know that the faculty got really, really scared. I read some things. The YWCA kind of went underground as well as in the ' ; 50s and they formed, their conferences were no longer called interracial conferences. They were called human relations conferences. And they, Ella Baker, Casey Hayden, Mary King were all on the payroll at the YWCA as they were helping SNIC get organized and they were doing these interracial conferences still and calling them human relations conferences. And they would offer to go to a college. The YWCAs were, in many of these colleges, were no longer being supported by the college, but they would call people in the sociology department or political science department and suggest that they come. And they would talk, do a lecture on human relations. And they were able to get into the colleges under that, under human relations rather than the YWCA. So I mean there was a whole lot of underground work that was going on, but it was hard to do, much harder to do in the ' ; 50s and ' ; 60s. And the black colleges were more open, of course, and the private colleges were more open, but the state colleges pretty much, I mean, you know, suspended students, they were careful not to let things be written, editorials for integration. There was one woman at Auburn who' ; s a novelist now. I read in the paper the other day that she got suspended--she got suspended because she wrote an editorial for integration at Auburn University and she--Seton, her name is Seton. She has a new book out, doing book signings lately. She wrote the book On Peachtree Street and all of those. SHORT: Anne Rivers. LEWIS: Anne Rivers. Yeah, Anne Rivers Seton. She got suspended from Auburn for writing in the college newspaper about a pro-integration. So it was--the colleges clamped down. SHORT: Atlanta' ; s business establishment supported Ellis Arnall in his race against Eugene Talmadge in 1942 and Mr. Carmichael again in 1946, but they never surfaced again until Carl Sanders ran in 1962. Some people give Sanders credit for being a New South governor because of his moderation on racial issues and his progressive program for Georgia. What was the civil rights movement at that time? LEWIS: Well, by then I was--what was his day? SHORT: He was elected in 1962. LEWIS: 1962, I was in, living in the coalfields of Virginia and it was kind of like I had disappeared from the civil rights movement. I' ; d been active in those early days at GSCW. By the time I got to the University of Virginia in ' ; 48, the first black student came into the law school there and he and I were on panels together and talked about stuff. But then I ended up teaching way out in the coalfields and the issues there were strip mining, black lung disease, union reform. And so my students and I got very much involved, and I got very much involved in the United Mine Workers and all of the problems there. So the civil rights movement just kind of passed me by. I would read about it in the paper. I' ; d read about it Selma and say, oh my gosh, if I had been, stayed in Georgia I would be there, you know, I would be involved. I would have been involved probably in the sit-ins in Atlanta and stuff like that. But I was not--I was not there. And I was involved and got in trouble, actually, as a teacher and with my students in some of the protests against strip mining and working with community groups and activist groups in the mountains. So I left the civil rights movement. So when I came back to Georgia, I was out of Georgia for 50 years. So I moved back to Georgia ten years ago and it' ; s kind of like the politics of something I don' ; t even understand anymore. I mean, it is another world. I mean, we had no republicans when I was here. Now, I mean we had the conservatives and the liberal democrats and so it' ; s probably better that they call themselves what they are now instead of pretending to be democrats when they weren' ; t. So it' ; s like just it' ; s--I' ; ve had a hard time relearning Georgia politics and it was--it' ; s sort of sad because that was going to be my life at one time. But then marriage and becoming a college professor, teaching sociology and anthropology and being in the coalfields for 40 years really got me involved in the Virginia politics and then--but only on sort of that. And Appalachian studies, is I started one of the first courses in Appalachian studies and have been very much involved in Appalachian regional kinds of issues and particular around mining. And so I lost--I was no longer involved in the sort of real southern civil rights movement. But I followed it in the newspaper, but that' ; s all. So Georgia politics, I just disappeared from my life. SHORT: You hear a lot of criticism of federal programs nowadays. What effect do you think the Appalachian Commission has had on Appalachia? LEWIS: It' ; s modernized a lot of stuff, but it also--it opened it up with big roads. I was always critical of it. As a matter of fact, when Jimmy Carter came in as president I was on his list to be the Director of the Appalachian Regional Commission. There was no way I would have been selected because I had been fairly critical of the Appalachian Regional Commission for putting their money into such--not really doing anything. For instance, land reform is one of the biggest problems in the mountains. When you have 80% of the land and minerals owned by coal companies, there' ; s no way that those counties can really, you know, make big changes. They don' ; t have the resources. So you can put in big roads that helps people get out, but the mechanization of the mines, the consolidation of the mines, the lack of safety in the mines were such big, big problems. And what happened was the coal companies kind of co-opted the politics in those states and in those counties. And it was just--so they did not--I had to force, I was with a group that forced the Appalachian Regional Commission to do a land study on land and minerals. They had never even done a study which said how much land and how much minerals we even owned or do anything about the tax structure. There was no severance tax on coal when I got up there. And I started with some of my students and people in town. And some of the little local coalminers, operators joined in trying to get a severance tax on coal. The small operators were told by the big companies where they had to sell their coal. Get out of there. And it took several years, but eventually there was a severance tax on coal and now all those states have it. So but there was--it was--they, okay, they' ; ve done some good stuff. They built some schools. They did some water systems and I used to go with groups and they' ; ve done some good stuff with education, but they have not gotten to some of the root causes and maybe they never would or could. But so I' ; ve been sort of a semi, I wouldn' ; t vote to do away with it, but I also would like them to be more involved in sustainable grassroots community development. SHORT: What did you think of Lyndon Johnson' ; s war on poverty? LEWIS: It was helpful. It was really helpful. It was good. I guess they lost the war, but there' ; s--there' ; s still a lot of poverty because nobody' ; s dealing with the root causes. And so you have continuing problems with poverty, out migration. I don' ; t see, you know, maybe--I mean, right now the mountain top removal type of mining and the real push now for more coal and using more coal in our energy crisis is--is absolutely devastating what' ; s left of the mountains. And what' ; s so sad is it' ; s going to effect--it' ; s effecting the water resources for the whole eastern seaboard because they' ; re covering up rivers and covering up streams with all that overburden, and water tables are dropping. I mean, this is not the way, this is not sustainable. There' ; s never--it' ; s not at all sustainable. So. SHORT: What do you think are the root causes of poverty? Is it education as most people think? LEWIS: It' ; s the great division between the rich and the poor, which is the greatest we' ; ve ever had and the tax system which favors corporate businesses. I mean, we need land reform in many places too and we need, I guess that' ; s why I' ; m an Obama supporter. I don' ; t think even there he will be able to do all that needs to be done, but this sort of the way in which corporate capitalism has taken over without any sort of criticism of it, you know, the market is going to solve it all. It is not. We' ; ve got to have more regulation and we' ; ve got to have a greater distribution of the wealth and we' ; ve got to put some resources in the of hands of rural communities, and rural policies, and agro business policies have got to be changed. We got to go back to more regional agriculture and it' ; s--there' ; s just a whole lot of structural changes I think that need to be made. I mean, the economy is not a moral economy and so that' ; s it, I think, is that distribution of wealth. We need some jubilees. SHORT: If you were asked to give advice to a young student in Georgia College and State University now, who is interested in becoming involved in politics, what would you say to them? LEWIS: I' ; d say do it. I mean they need to participate. They need to not just vote, but they need to really get involved and as 18-year-olds they can, you know. I--when I did the inaugural lecture for the new president down there and what I did was talk about the ' ; 40s and the kind of civic education we got, the kind of participation in trying to develop integration and I just said they need to go back to having more civic education, more political education, and more participation in politics by young people. I think--I don' ; t think the League of Women Voters still exists down there because it' ; s now a coed school and the YWCA hardly exists, and there' ; s no other organization pushing. The denominations don' ; t push it. The social gospel is kind of dead. And so I would like to--I think it' ; s happening and some of it is happening through service learning. Students have been asking for more responsibility to the communities where they live and to the communities they come from. And they go and work with, you know, poor or what' ; s communities and sort of that has sort of brought forth a group of students now that are pushing to be more activist. So I see movement in some of the colleges and so it' ; s time the administration got on board and made this more possible. And because those were the experiences that educated me more than a lot of the classes. It was those extra--I went in 1945, I took a bus from Atlanta, Georgia to Hartford, Connecticut, three day journey and worked--I was with a YWCA project called Student in Industry. We all had to go out--we lived at a coop house. It was interracial. There was a young Japanese there who had come out of the concentration camps. There was a black student from Harvard whose parents were afraid for him to even come to that summer project because there were two young girls from Georgia going to be there, white girls, and they were afraid that they would mistreat their son. But we became really good friends. We all had to get jobs and at night we had seminars on labor and industry. I mean that was an incredible education. I worked in a place that made the Norton Bomb Site and they put me on as an expediter to run around the factory to put things together to make things produce, but they did it mostly as a joke because I spoke with such a southern accent that they thought it would amuse the workers. So that was my job for the summer until they discovered that I had worked in the library and they put me then in a room with all the patents to develop a library system for all of their papers and things. So they finally put me to work at a decent job, but that summer was an incredible education and so I think through service learning at colleges today that students are beginning to participate more. And so my advice is to get involved in politics. It' ; s pretty important. SHORT: Well, you certainly have and you' ; ve had a wonderful career. I want to thank you on behalf of the Richard Russell Library and the University of Georgia for being with us. LEWIS: I' ; m pleased to have been asked. Thank you for letting me tell some of my story. SHORT: Anything else you want to say? LEWIS: I don' ; t think so. You may want to read this thing that I wrote about the--well, you have a copy here. That' ; s mine. He' ; ll give you a copy, but you need a copy of that because it really gives you a lot of names of everybody in the--who were involved in this project in the Carmichael campaign headquarters. I think-- SHORT: One of my great heroes in this life has been a fellow named Walter Brooks. I guess you won' ; t remember Walter Brooks. He was associated with Senator Talmadge, Governor Talmadge. He was my mentor as a speechwriter and he had--he had the most respect for Dewitt Roberts you' ; d never believe. Dewitt Roberts was his hero. LEWIS: Well, Dewitt was a great friend of mine. He was so upset that I went onto Duke. He wanted me to stay and be part of that. They had my whole life planned. Dewitt had my life planned. Allen Collie whose mother was the head of the women' ; s campaign and they were big politicians and came out of mill owning families in Grantville, he was at that meeting when we all got arrested. And he and I were kind of boyfriends that summer. I mean, they had the idea that he was going to be governor and I was going to marry Allen and then we were going to be the first family of Georgia. That was the scheme. Well, I said, you know, that he had just graduated from Princeton and he was kind of a Kennedy sort of person. He got killed next summer. He was a pilot and he was with the National Guard and there was a crash and he died. And so that ruined that little episode. Besides that, I had gone to Duke and then met someone and so that romance was gone. Wasn' ; t much of a romance. It was just kind of a little flirtation and it--so but they were--Dewitt had it all planned and then he had it planned that I would buy this county newspaper. And a friend of mine, Amelia Nodeler was running a newspaper in the town and she was a GSCW student. And so then I would run for the legislature. They had it all--my life planned and I was excited about it until I changed my--changed my plans and became a college professor instead. But I' ; ve always was, as a teacher, I must say that I was all more of an organizer of students than I was the proper lecturer. I got them involved in grassroots groups, involved in United Mine Workers and black--but this was the--their families problems. I mean the students started Virginia Citizens for Better Reclamation. As a result, I got fired and it was for nurturing radical students, the dean said. So I must say that I was politically involved with my students in all these social movements in the mountains and that to me was--I told the dean, well I thought that was what teaching was all about, nurturing radical students. So anyway, so I continued to be active and active politically wherever I was, but which made it difficult, I mean somewhat difficult, you know, in terms of, you know, the administration. SHORT: Did you know Doug Wilder? LEWIS: I mean I didn' ; t know him personally, but [indiscernible] yeah, I know who we was. SHORT: He was a great friend of mine. LEWIS: Oh, great. Great. SHORT: When he ran for governor, well he was lieutenant governor. When he ran for governor, I helped host a series of fundraisers for him-- LEWIS: Oh did you? Good for you. SHORT:--in the city of Atlanta. LEWIS: All right. Good. Yeah. SHORT: He was elected and then reelected. LEWIS: Uh-huh. SHORT: Very nice guy. CRAIG BREADEN: Can I ask a question while the camera' ; s still rolling, because I just, I didn' ; t turn it off. LEWIS: Oh, you didn' ; t turn it off? Oh. Yeah. BREADEN: I wanted to ask one more question and Bob can chime on this too, but what impact do you think World War II had and the end of the war have on the election in ' ; 46 for governor? Or was there an impact? Because Ellis Arnall was obviously elected as the war was beginning for the United States and taking this more progressive path. And then with the close of the war, did that have impact on what happened in ' ; 46? LEWIS: I don' ; t know. I think it was more the sort of, the beginnings of a rise in the sort of beginning to integrate facilities and things that really produced more fear on the part of people that influenced it more. Because actually there was sort of a euphoria at the end of the war. I mean, you know, about peace and prosperity and that should have helped more than hinder. BREADEN: And he did win the popular vote. LEWIS: Yeah. Yeah. SHORT: Well, the problem being was the county unit system. LEWIS: Yeah. SHORT: When you take three small counties with a population of 30,000 and equal a vote in Fulton County, which has a population of 400,000, there' ; s no way in the world you' ; re going to--winning the popular vote is going to get you elected. You got to run in those counties. You got to have county organizations. You got to have the sheriffs and the county commissioners and all those people out there turning out the vote for you. And that' ; s why the machine in Georgia was so powerful. It started with Eugene Talmadge in 1926 when he ran for agriculture commissioner and extended through 1962 when the county unit system was abolished. And the county unit system elected all the governors between that period and therefore you didn' ; t get candidates running because they feared losing because they couldn' ; t win out in the ustings. LEWIS: He was an incredible speaker too. I mean I went to one of those big rallies and the first thing he' ; d do and get up on the stage, and it was an outdoor stage, and he had people up in the trees that were going to yell to him. And he would, you know, and they' ; d say, " ; Take off your coat, Gene.” Red suspenders. " ; Tell us about your son, Herman. Herman' ; s fitting in the war" ; . And then he did this whole thing about the farmer has three friends, Sears Roebuck, God Almighty, and Gene Talmadge, you know. And he was incredible. I mean it was just the show. It was a wonderful show and he was just that real populist leader among--he had bragged that he never carried a county with a streetcar in it. You know-- SHORT: Didn' ; t want to carry a county with a streetcar. LEWIS: Yeah, didn' ; t want to carry it and he could jump on the media and all this media against him and that just proved to be fine. When I got to the coalfields, it was kind of like the coal companies had the same kind of control over local politicians in the coalfields, that Talmadge and his gang had over Pine Tree counties, you know. SHORT: You know, if they gave Oscars to politicians for acting, Eugene Talmadge would have a mantle full of them. LEWIS: Oh, wouldn' ; t he. SHORT: Because you know he was a Phi Beta Kappa graduate of the University of the University of Georgia. Brilliant man. LEWIS: Smart as a whip. SHORT: But he was a 135 pound lineman on the Georgia football team. He was an accomplished boxer, but you would think that he was just an old dirt farmer from Telfair County. And he had people convinced of that and they never, never saw through his acting ability. LEWIS: Well, my family were always anti-Talmadge. My father was a rural mail carrier. He almost got fired once, I think, when I think maybe it was when Ellis Arnall got elected. He put aspirins in the mailbox of this man he argued politics with, a big Talmadge supporter. Well, he got reported and he almost got fired from carrying the mail because he had done this with this aspirin in this mailbox. And so I grew up pretty strong anti-Talmadge, but I must say I admired the old man for his acting ability and his, I mean he was incredibly entertaining as well. SHORT: What do you think caused all of his demagoguery? LEWIS: How you get elected. It' ; s how you get elected. BREADEN: Did he lose to Arnall in ' ; 42 because of the UGA scandal and--? LEWIS: I think it was. I think regardless of, you know, poor farmers and wanting the small, you know, cheap tags and all that sort of stuff and feeling he was on their side, they still believed in education and they wanted their kids to get a good education. So I think that whole thing, that allowed Ellis Arnall to get elected. And so if that was the main thing was to get those colleges reaccredited so that people' ; s kids would have a decent education. And-- SHORT: And Arnold had a lot of plusses. Arnold had been, you know, attorney general. He was very well liked. He had the legislature behind him and that' ; s important. LEWIS: I was sorry that he never got a real good federal position or continued in politics, or was able to continue in politics. I mean he just kind of was not, I mean he was thought--I mean I know he was recommended for several positions in the federal government. I mean ' ; cause he was a good politician and a good statesperson, statesmen. So but I did do some work on his book. SHORT: Shore Dimly Seen. LEWIS: Yeah. BREADEN: What did you do for that? LEWIS: I just did some research. Dewitt Roberts wrote the book. I mean mostly. SHORT: You know, ghostwriters aren' ; t supposed to say things like that. LEWIS: I' ; m not supposed to say that. He helped with the book. He did the major research. He did some of the research. We did some of the research. SHORT: I used to face that all the time. People said, who wrote his speech. He did. LEWIS: Yeah. SHORT: He did. And I wrote speeches for governors and never saw them until they walked out the door with them. LEWIS: Well, I think that--the few little speeches I got to write for Thompson, his little fireside chat things he did, you remember those? SHORT: Oh, yeah and I always felt sorry for Melvin Thompson because when he served those two years he really never had a chance. The legislature was opposed to him because it had elected Talmadge and they were angry because the courts had overturned them. So they didn' ; t give him any money. They did nothing for him and he sat there for two years, you know signing executive orders and making civic club speeches, but he really never had a chance. LEWIS: No. And so that was my big moment in politics in Georgia, which is not much of a big moment. So I left and went to Virginia, but we all were kind of scattering at the end of that campaign. I tell you, we were talking about leaving the country. Bill Allen, who had been one of the PR people there and everybody was talking about leaving. Ed Bridges I think was one of the reporter' ; s names that worked with us and it was some possibility of my going to work with the Atlanta Constitution and I was kind of thinking about that and had talked to them about it. And then, but then that the whole marriage, going back to graduate school and becoming a college professor. So but because I was a little bit more of an activist as a college professor, that career was fraught with danger too. Okay. Well, thank you so much. SHORT: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. [END OF RECORDING] Resources may be used under the guidelines described by the U.S. Copyright Office in Section 107, Title 17, United States Code (Fair use). Parties interested in production or commercial use of the resources should contact the Russell Library for a fee schedule. video 0 RBRL220ROGP-049.xml RBRL220ROGP-049.xml http://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL220ROGP/findingaid http://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL220ROGP-049/findingaid
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Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
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Interview with Helen Lewis, September 15, 2008
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RBRL220ROGP-049
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Helen Lewis
Bob Short
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oral histories
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Women--Political activity
Political activists
Student movements
School integration
Civil rights
United States--Civil rights
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Helen Lewis was born in Cumming, Georgia, in 1924 and spent most of her career as an educator and activist for civil rights and social justice. Lewis discusses her student activism at Georgia State College for Women in the 1940s. In particular, she focuses on her work with the Student League for Good Government supporting progressive Democrat Jimmy Carmichael in Georgia's 1946 gubernatorial race and her civil rights advocacy with the Young Women's Christian Association (YWCA). She also discusses her career teaching and addressing issues of labor, poverty, and education across the Appalachian region.
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2008-09-15
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Georgia
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moving image
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Reflections on Georgia Politics Oral History Collection
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Georgia--History
Georgia--Politics and government
Politics and Public Policy
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The Reflections on Georgia Politics Oral History Collection consists of interviews with politically prominent Georgians conducted by Bob Short from 2006 to 2016. Interviewees include former governors, members of both the U.S. and Georgia Congresses, secretaries of state, lobbyists, journalists, lawyers, activists, and relatives of prominent politicians. Included with these oral histories are a few public programs recorded at Young Harris College in 2006-2007. Most interviews were recorded in the homes and offices of interviewees or in the Bob Short Oral History Studio at the University of Georgia. The conversations cover many topics at the intersection of politics and public life in modern Georgia, with a particular strength in gubernatorial contests, the Civil Rights movement, reapportionment, the development of Atlanta, the rise of the Republican party in Georgia, political journalism, and the interaction between religion and politics.<br /><br /><a href="http://georgiaoralhistory.libs.uga.edu/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=&range=&collection=9&type=&tags=OHMS&featured=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">View all OHMS indexed interviews in this collection here. </a>
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Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
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Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
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2006-2016
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RBRL220ROGP
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Georgia
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5.3 Interview with Tyrone Brooks, September 2, 2009 RBRL220ROGP-085 RBRL220ROGP Reflections on Georgia Politics Oral History Collection ROGP 085 Interview with Tyrone Brooks Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies, University of Georgia Tyrone Brooks Bob Short oral history 1:|18(13)|29(13)|41(5)|54(7)|69(9)|82(7)|93(7)|108(12)|121(3)|133(2)|146(13)|161(11)|171(12)|183(15)|195(5)|210(2)|239(4)|251(3)|263(3)|274(9)|288(13)|304(15)|315(12)|327(4)|338(8)|351(1)|362(8)|372(10)|383(9)|393(16)|406(8)|418(2)|432(2)|443(6)|454(7)|467(1)|479(3)|489(14)|500(4)|513(12)|534(14)|545(3)|556(10)|573(3)|585(7)|597(6)|610(11)|624(5)|643(4)|653(4)|663(4)|674(5)|684(8)|696(3)|707(13)|720(2)|732(1)|743(16)|756(14)|767(4)|783(1)|794(9)|808(2)|823(2)|838(11)|856(10)|872(6)|881(12)|893(7)|905(4)|916(1)|929(8)|944(12)|957(8)|966(14)|978(8)|991(1)|1002(14)|1015(3)|1025(3)|1035(7)|1047(7)|1059(1)|1072(7)|1084(14)|1100(6)|1110(7)|1124(3)|1140(12)|1154(11)|1165(14)|1177(1)|1188(3)|1202(9)|1212(8)|1225(9)|1238(6)|1250(9)|1262(10)|1273(7)|1291(8)|1301(9) 0 Kaltura video < ; iframe id=" ; kaltura_player" ; src=" ; https://cdnapisec.kaltura.com/p/1727411/sp/172741100/embedIframeJs/uiconf_id/26879422/partner_id/1727411?iframeembed=true& ; playerId=kaltura_player& ; entry_id=1_yy3rlosl& ; flashvars[localizationCode]=en& ; flashvars[leadWithHTML5]=true& ; flashvars[sideBarContainer.plugin]=true& ; flashvars[sideBarContainer.position]=left& ; flashvars[sideBarContainer.clickToClose]=true& ; flashvars[chapters.plugin]=true& ; flashvars[chapters.layout]=vertical& ; flashvars[chapters.thumbnailRotator]=false& ; flashvars[streamSelector.plugin]=true& ; flashvars[EmbedPlayer.SpinnerTarget]=videoHolder& ; flashvars[dualScreen.plugin]=true& ; & ; wid=1_hqqyco2b" ; width=" ; 400" ; height=" ; 285" ; allowfullscreen webkitallowfullscreen mozAllowFullScreen frameborder=" ; 0" ; > ; < ; /iframe> ; English 23 Family roots Your parents and grandparents have deep roots in Georgia history. Brooks talks about being born with pneumonia, explaining that he was healed through his grandmother's prayers. He speaks about his father, a railroad worker who had to flee to Philadelphia after getting in a fight with a white man. A. Philip Randolph Brotherhood of Sleeping Car Porters ; birth ; family ; father ; health ; Ku Klux Klan ; mother ; NAACP ; parents ; Sparta ; Warren County ; Warrenton 17 455 Picketing against segregation So you grew up in Georgia. Brooks recalls reading about civil rights in the black newspapers, which inspired him to picket for school integration around 1970. Brooks was expelled from his high school and sent to a private Presbyterian school, but his student movement spread and attracted attention from major civil rights leaders. Boggs Academy ; Brown v. Board of Education ; integration ; marching ; protest ; Reverend Hosea Williams ; segregation 17 664 Meeting Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. When did you first meet Dr. King? Brooks talks about Rev. Hosea Williams and his attempts to engage young Georgians in the civil rights movement. He remembers that Williams arranged for Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. and Rev. Ralph David Abernathy to pass through Warrenton and meet Brooks and other students. Brooks also recalls subsequent meetings with Dr. King and briefly mentions the Moore's Ford Bridge case. lynching case ; Memphis ; MLK ; Moore’s Ford Bridge ; Poor People's Campaign ; SCLC 17 http://www.georgiaencyclopedia.org/articles/history-archaeology/lynching#Moore's-Ford Moore's Ford Bridge lynching, New Georgia Encyclopedia 1004 Southern Christian Leadership Conference But before we do, let’s talk a little bit about the SCLC. Brooks talks about working with the SCLC full time and becoming Rev. Abernathy's communications director after Dr. King's assassination. Brooks also chronicles the Montgomery bus boycott and the formation of SCLC. Brooks credits the SCLC with ending Jim Crow and forcing the passage of the Civil Rights Act, Voting Rights Act, Open Housing Act, and affirmative action. assistant ; bus boycott ; Claudette Colvin ; Hosea Williams ; Montgomery ; Reverend E.D. Nixon ; Rosa Parks 17 1542 SCLC training Explain to us, if you will, Dr. King’s philosophy of non-violence and how he taught you and others how not to turn the other cheek. Brooks talks about SCLC members' training in community activism, nonviolent protest, and self-protection from billy clubs, tear gas, and police dogs. Brooks highlights the importance of resisting anger and of relating to people from a variety of backgrounds. Dorchester Academy ; First African Baptist Church ; Gandhi ; nonviolence ; organizing ; Penn Center ; training ; Tremont Temple 17 1923 Chicago's resistance to integration You didn’t have the resistance in the rest of the country that you had in the South did you? Brooks discusses Jesse Jackson, James Orange, and James Bevel's demonstrations in Chicago's immigrant communities. He says that the level of resistance to integration was higher in these areas than it was in the South. Brooks also comments on southern state governments' historic links to the KKK and their current level of black representation, which has increased due to the Voting Rights Act and the abolition of county unit systems. enclaves ; Ku Klux Klan ; law enforcement ; resistance ; segregation 17 2179 Dividing King's Nobel Peace Prize money What is – what was the relationship between SCLC and other organizations like the NAACP and CORE? Brooks notes the SCLC's support for the NAACP, the National Council of Negro Women, the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee, and the Congress of Racial Equality, all of which received portions of King's Nobel Peace Prize winnings. He also talks about the close relationship between Dr. King and Rev. Abernathy. Bayard Rustin ; John Lewis ; Nobel Prize 17 2405 Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee sit-ins You mentioned the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee. Brooks talks about SNCC sit-ins in southern cities like Greensboro, Anniston, Montgomery, and Birmingham. He describes police treatment of black protesters as well as the danger white students faced for supporting civil rights. Brooks also discusses Lonnie King's student movement, which protested at Rich's Department Store in Atlanta with Dr. King. Congressman Lewis ; John Lewis ; law enforcement ; Lonnie King ; Rich's ; Rush Memorial Congregational Church 17 2935 Arrests at the Poor People's Campaign You been to jail 66 times. Brooks describes the Poor People's Campaign, a movement Abernathy and King organized to bring Congressional attention to poverty, especially in Marks, Mississippi, and throughout the South. The Poor People's Campaign proceeded on mules from Mississippi to a tent city in Washington, D.C. Participants were arrested in Georgia and in Washington, where officials claimed the demonstration did not have sufficient permits. They were held in D.C. and Virginia jails, where they fasted until the end of their 30 day sentences. Bobby Nelson ; Governor Lester Maddox ; Hosea Williams ; Jimmy Wells ; mule train ; Resurrection City ; West Hunter Street Baptist Church ; Willie Bolden 17 3577 Newton County arrest But the longest period of time I stayed in jail was right here in Georgia. 1970, Covington, Georgia, Brooks recalls being jailed for 45 days in Covington, Georgia, on charges of marching without permits and inciting riots. He says that charges were dropped and he and the other activists were released after Judge Ernest Tidwell signed a habeus corpus order. Brooks also details his most recent arrest in Taliaferro County in 2003. He was jailed for contempt of court after refusing to allow progress on a landfill in his community. Georgia Association of Black Elected Officials ; Howard Moore ; Joe Lowery ; Judge Parnell Davis 17 3870 Selma, Alabama The two things that really, really gave impetus to the movement were the sit-ins and Bloody Sunday. Brooks talks about the civil rights march from Selma to Montgomery, a reaction against violent police killings including that of Jimmy Lee Jackson. He describes the persistence of the protesters, who would not delay the march even at the request of Dr. King, and the reactions of state troopers. C.T. Vivian ; Hosea Williams ; James Bevel ; John Lewis ; Maynard Jackson ; SNCC ; Voting Rights Act ; VRA 17 4328 Political impacts of Selma It touched the conscience of America and it touched the president of the United States. Brooks talks about President Johnson's decision to provide Selma marchers with protection from the Federal Marshals, the National Guard, and the FBI. Brooks mentions the presence of angry Klansmen and supportive Hollywood stars at the march, and he recalls Dr. King's speech in Montgomery. Brooks also talks about the Voting Rights Act's impact on political parties in the South and explains the opportunities the Voting Rights Act and the Civil Rights Act opened up for black Americans. Civil Rights Act ; civil rights march ; Dirksen ; Humphrey ; LBJ ; opportunity ; partisanship ; protest ; VRA 17 4700 Contemporary issues for African-Americans What do you think are the most important issues facing African Americans today? Brooks talks about poverty, unemployment, and incarceration of African Americans. He discusses the SCLC's efforts to improve economics and education in black communities. community ; finances ; imprisonment ; incarceration ; jobs ; money ; stability 17 4986 Early days in the legislature When did you get interested in becoming a politician? Brooks discusses being elected to the Georgia legislature in 1980 despite his image as a " ; radical civil rights worker." ; He talks about Speaker Murphy and the legislative process. Brooks recalls passing legislation to change Georgia's flag. Confederate Battle Flag ; Roy Barnes ; state flag ; Tom Murphy 17 5345 Reforming Georgia law The work we did in areas of judicial reform where we – we had to challenge the state on – Brooks talks about reforming judicial law to make Georgia courts more representative of the black population. He also discusses reforms to Georgia's welfare program, improvements to employment and pension opportunities, and fair reapportionment. Brooks litigation ; HB 101 ; House Bill 101 ; law enforcement ; Peace Officers Benefit Annuity Retirement Fund ; PeachCare ; pension ; redistricting ; welfare reform 17 5631 Moore’s Ford Bridge investigations / Brooks's Legacy Now, Tyrone, I’d like to ask you about your involvement in the Moore’s Ford Memorial Committee. Brooks talks about the Moore's Ford Bridge case, in which Klansmen killed two black couples in Monroe, Georgia. He mentions Dr. King's interest in the case and the federal task force's progress. He emphasizes that although the crimes occurred long ago, there is no statute of limitations on murder and that the suspects must still be brought to justice. Additionally, Brooks briefly ponders how he would like to be remembered. Emmett Till bill ; FBI ; GBI ; Georgia Association of Black Elected Officials ; lynchings ; Roy Barnes ; Walton County 17 http://www.georgiaencyclopedia.org/articles/history-archaeology/lynching#Moore's-Ford Moore's Ford Bridge lynching, New Georgia Encyclopedia BOB SHORT: I’m Bob Short. This is Reflections on Georgia Politics sponsored by the University of Georgia and Young Harris College. Our guest is state representative and Civil Rights activist Tyrone Brooks. Welcome, Representative Brooks. TYRONE BROOKS: Thank you very much. SHORT: Your parents and grandparents have deep roots in Georgia history. BROOKS: Oh yes. SHORT: Tell us about them. BROOKS: Oh, Lord. My daddy and my grand daddy and my paternal grandmother come out of Hancock County, Georgia – Sparta. And my mother – on the mother’s side, my maternal side of the family, they come out of Warren County. So my roots are deep in middle Georgia, Hancock and Warren, several generations back. And I’m often in my hometown Warrenton. I visit my daddy’s hometown Sparta quite often. My father, his daddy, and his mother are buried behind the New Beulah Baptist Church in Sparta on the Crawfordsville Highway. My mother, who passed away on June 27th of this year, 2009, she’s buried in Warrenton, my home town – not far from my maternal grandmother, Ada Myrie [ph]. But I was born in Washington, Georgia, Wilkes County. My mother gave birth to me by a midwife. A midwife delivered me on the way to the hospital in Washington, Georgia. There was no hospital near Warrenton when I was born. There is one in Thompson, Georgia now 11 miles away. But when I was born there was no hospital in Thompson. There’s still not one in Warrenton. So the nearest hospital was Washington-Wilkes County. And my mother told me the story. She said her water broke, had a midwife in the car, and I came out in the backseat. And they took me to the hospital in Washington-Wilkes and after examining me the doctor said, " ; This baby is sick. This baby has double pneumonia. Call your preacher and your undertaker ; there’s no hope.” Within 24 hours we’re quite certain this baby will be dead. My mother refused to accept that. And my grandmamma, Ada, with some other ministers, followed the car on up to the hospital and they came into the room and my mother said the doctor said well, might as well call the preacher and undertaker, there’s no hope for this child. And my grandmamma Ada was, we call it sanctified in the holy ghost in the country, and she was a strong believer and she said the doctors don’t really know, they’re guessing. Let’s just pray over this baby. They prayed over me all night long. The next morning the doctors came around on their little rounds, you know, checking on all the children in the room and they heard me crying real loud. I guess I wanted some milk. And they peeped in the door and they said whose baby is this? And my mother said this is my baby. This is the one that you all examined yesterday and you said the baby wouldn’t survive 24 hours. And the doctors picked me up and took me down the hall and examined me again. There was no sign of pneumonia. And they came back into the room and they said, " ; This is a miracle ; we don’t believe this. We didn’t give this child any medicine because we were quite certain he would be dead today.” And they said, " ; There is no sign of pneumonia.” So my grandmamma stood up and they said, " ; Well who are you?” My grandmamma was very fair. Her father happened to be a white man and she looked totally different from my mother. They said, " ; Why are you in here with this colored woman?” She said, " ; This is my daughter, that’s my grandbaby.” And she said, " ; Let me tell you all one thing," ; she said, " ; y’all may be smart, you got those degrees, you been to all the medical schools, the Emory, the MCGs, Harvard, Yale.” She said, " ; One thing about it, even though you all are educated, you ain’t God. And God was not ready for my grandbaby to leave here.” And I never been sick since I was born. I had a kidney stone about nine years ago and I thought I was going to die. (Laughter) Because I never had one before and I didn’t know what it was. But my doctor examined me and he said oh, it’s just a little kidney stone, a little old stone on your kidney. They took that off. That’s the only time I’ve ever been ill in my life since I was born. So knock on wood, Bob, in good health according to my doctors, but I’m the miracle child in the family. I’m not supposed to be here. SHORT: Your daddy was a railroader. BROOKS: That’s right. He’s a railroad man. My daddy worked on the old Georgia Railroad line from Augusta all the way to Macon. And my daddy had an incident in Warren County. My daddy used to lay the crossties to put the rails on the tracks. My daddy was a very proud black man from Sparta and my daddy was a very industrious frugal man. He had saved up enough money to buy him a brand new car. He wanted a Chevrolet. And he went to Wiley’s Chevrolet Company in downtown Warrenton to buy him a car. And now I didn’t know this until my son Tyrone Junior who is now in law school started researching his granddaddy’s history. Because he wanted to know why was granddaddy in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania and grandmamma in Warrenton? Couldn’t figure that connection out. So he finally figured it out. He started investigating it by talking to relatives and old timers and he discovered – because my mother had never told me this story. My daddy went to buy a Chevrolet and he walked into the dealership and a young white guy walked up to him and said, " ; Boy, what can I do for you?” And my daddy said – he used profanity according to my mother. He said, " ; You don’t see no blank, blank boy," ; and there was some words and there was a fight in the showroom. My daddy wanted to fight. And the manager came out to apologize but my daddy knew he had to get out of there. And his cousins from Sparta came and picked him up and drove him over to Augusta. Some relatives from South Carolina picked him up, took him to Charleston, and he went on up to Philadelphia cause he knew he was going to be killed. You couldn’t fight a white man during that era and survive. The Klan would come get you if the law enforcement didn’t. Well he was not arrested but the Klan probably was going to kill him or burn down his house. So he went up to Philadelphia, Pennsylvania and in a week' ; s time he was working for Penn Central. And when he got to Penn Central he became a sleeping car porter. He started working on the inside of the cars rather than on the outside. He joined the A. Philip Randolph Brotherhood of Sleeping Car Porters Union and was a card carrying member. He always had two cards with him. He had the A. Philip Randolph card and he had a NAACP card in his pocket at all times. My daddy died on December 7th, 1987 at the age of 77, and we funeralized him in Sparta. That’s where he’s resting. But he was a very proud black man and his legacy is primarily railroad work. That’s all he did. SHORT: So you grew up in Georgia. BROOKS: Yeah, Warrenton is where I grew up. SHORT: When schools were integrated – segregated, excuse me. BROOKS: The schools were segregated. We desegregated our school system by marching and picketing, even though the U.S. Supreme court had ruled in the Brown vs. Board of Education case, 1954, the schools in my hometown all the way up to 1970 resisted integration. We had to march and picket against the Board of Education. Many of us young children and were walking and picketing, we were banned from school property. The Board of Education actually sought an injunction to keep us off the school property because we were picketing. Now we were still students now, but they said no, you all are picketing, you’re marching, you’re trouble makers. You come on this property we’re going to put you in jail. Some of us had to go down to Boggs Academy in Keysville, which is like 25, 30 miles away and that’s how I completed my high school education by going to Boggs Academy. I didn’t finish in my hometown of Warrenton. I had to go down the road to Boggs, a private preparatory school founded by the Presbyterian Church. I received a scholarship because of Reverend Hosea Williams and Reverend Joe Boone. And that’s how I got my high school education. But across the South, young children were so fired up about the Civil Rights Revolution, reading about Dr. King and Abernathy and all the great leaders. We were getting it from television every night – CBS, ABC, NBC, and we were reading the black press, the Atlanta Daily World, the Pittsburg Courier. Those papers were coming into our homes and neighborhoods and we were just taking in all of this. And so students across the South begin to rise up on their own. We were inspired by King. We had never met King but we were seeing King every night and reading about King in all the black press and some of the major media, like the Atlanta Journal-Constitution and the Augusta Chronicle. And we were just like other children. We stood up and we started our own little movement and we attracted the attention of SCLC and here comes Hosea Williams, here comes Willie Bolden, here comes Dr. Abernathy and Dr. King and one things leads to another and then I get swept up in it as other children and – SHORT: At age 15. BROOKS: At age 15 I was just a little volunteer, a little old skinny kid, big afro on my head, lot of hair. A lot of times us children didn’t know what we were doing. We were just out there. and we were mimicking what we were watching say from Montgomery and Selma and St. Augustine and the freedom rides, John Lewis and others on those buses being attacked. We were just inspired by all of that. So what was happening in Warrenton was spreading. Crawfordsville, Sparta, Lincolnton, all these little towns – Sandersville. Students were standing up. And you’d go into Mississippi, Alabama, Florida, the Carolinas, the same thing was happening – Tennessee. And so it was kind of an uprising by students, young people, and we began to attract the attention of the national leadership. That’s how it all happened, really, across the South. SHORT: When did you first meet Dr. King? BROOKS: Oh I met him when I was 15. It was strange how all this happened. We had started picketing in my hometown. Hosea Williams had been coming in and out, because at that time Hosea was teaching school in Conyers. When Hosea left Morris Brown with a degree in Chemistry, he applied for a job as a research chemist at the Department of Agriculture in Savannah. So he was waiting to get that job. But in the meantime, he taught school in Conyers and he taught school in Douglas, Coffee County. Those are the two school systems he taught in the public system. So while he was teaching in Conyers, Hosea would come down to my uncle’s farm, my mother’s oldest brother, Roanie Cody [ph]. He had a large farm in Warren County. And Hosea would come down – Hosea was a very outgoing person. He was a great man, but Hosea was a very outgoing, affable guy. He would come down to my hometown, he would speak, he would challenge black educators to fight segregation, he would try to motivate the youth to join the movement. And Hosea knew that Dr. King and Abernathy had to go to Charleston to visit with Ms. Septima Clark. At that time, Interstate 20 was not completed all the way over to Augusta or into South Carolina. They had to come through my hometown on Highway 278. So Hosea made it happen where when Dr. King and Abernathy were going to pass through my little hometown, we had a little Civil Rights movement going on. Hosea made it happen wherein the car that was bringing Dr. King and Abernathy would stop – make a brief stop. So Hosea told us, stand on this highway in this little park under the trees, have some lemonade and some cookies. As Dr. King and Abernathy pass through they’re going to make a brief stop, about ten minutes, they don’t have much time. And we did that ; we followed Hosea’s instructions. So we stood out there under this little shady park area on the highway, coming into Warrenton, we saw this black Cadillac coming down the highway with the lights on, pretty shiny black car, and we knew it was Dr. King. So the car pulled over. The car was being driven by Reverend J.C. Ward. And the car pulled over and all of the sudden the doors open. Dr. Abernathy was the first one to exit the car. Then Dr. King got out of the car. We were expecting a big tall man like you. Dr. King was very short. And he had a white shirt with a black tie, he had loosened the collar, and he had on long sleeves but he had rolled them up to his elbow. And so, he gets out and he walks around to shake our hand. Hosea told him who we were and he said, " ; Do you all have anything to drink? We’re thirsty.” And we said, " ; Yes, we got some lemonade for you. We got some little cookies.” Actually, the cookies were tea cakes that my grandmother had made, little tea cakes we called them. And he introduced Dr. Abernathy. He said, " ; This is Reverend Ralph David Abernathy, the best friend I have in the world right here.” And then he introduced Reverend J.C. Ward, Reverend Fred Bennett, Reverend JD Greer, who served in the legislature later. He said, " ; We’re headed to Charleston, South Carolina to meet Ms. Septima Clark.” And he said, " ; We’ll see you all later.” That was it. The next time I saw Dr. King was at the Dorchester Academy down in Midway Georgia, Liberty County, at a SCLC workshop. And on and on and on. The last time I saw Dr. King alive was on March 21st, 1968 at New Zion Baptist Church in Macon, Georgia as he and Dr. Abernathy were traveling around the country organizing the Poor People’s Campaign march on Washington. And at the same time they were in Memphis, Tennessee working with the sanitation workers. And that was my last time seeing him and at that meeting he told us that he and Ralph – meaning Dr. Abernathy – had to return to Memphis. He said, " ; Andrew Young doesn’t want us to go back. We' ; ve got too much on our plate.” He said, " ; but Hosea says if the president and vice-president of SCLC don’t return to Memphis to help the sanitation workers both of us should resign.” And he said, " ; Hosea’s right, so we got to go back.” He said, " ; But when we finish in Memphis we’re going to come over to Monroe, Georgia" ; --where we assigned then--" ; and we’re going to help y’all with this Moore’s Ford Bridge lynching case.” We were not working on the Moore’s Ford Bridge lynching. We were working on school desegregation. But he said, " ; We’re coming to Monroe because Dan Young, an undertaker in Monroe wants us to come. Where’s Dan?” We said, " ; We don’t know.” Dan Young walked in the church 15 minutes later and sat between King and Abernathy. He said, " ; Martin, you and Ralph have to come to Monroe and help us with this lynching case.” And Dr. King said, " ; Dan, when we finish in Memphis, Ralph and I will come.” That was March 21st, 1968. In two weeks Dr. King was dead. So he never could come. Abernathy did come. Joe Lowery came, Jesse Jackson came, Charles Steele has been there. I mean, you know, you name all of the great leaders, they’ve all been there. And we’re still working on this case right now, today, because as you know, the federal government and state government have reopened this case and it’s an ongoing investigation. So that was my last time seeing Dr. King alive. SHORT: Let’s talk for a minute about – I want to get to that Moore’s – BROOKS: Moore’s Ford Bridge. SHORT:--Ford Bridge case, but before we do let’s talk a little bit about the SCLC. BROOKS: Oh yeah. SHORT: You volunteered. BROOKS: Yes. SHORT: Then you became a regular. BROOKS: Yes. SHORT: Well tell us about that. BROOKS: Well, many of us young children who were involved in the movement as teenagers were offered positions after we’d gone through orientation and training. I was just one of them from my home area. I was not the only one. There were some from Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, Texas. So I was just one of the young people that was asked to come in full time and it was because of Hosea Williams. Had it not been for Hosea Williams I doubt if I would ever have joined SCLC full time. But Hosea Williams brought me in. I was hired full time in 1967, one year before the assassination of Dr. King. And Hosea said, " ; Well, I' ; ve been holding this position for you ; you got to come take it. If you don’t take it I’m going to have to let it go.” And I said, " ; Well let it go.” I said, " ; I want to go to New York. I want to get rich.” My mind was on going to New York and joining relatives who had left the South. Some of them were doing very well in New York. Some of them were working with Percy Sutton. Percy Sutton was a very wealthy black man in New York. He owned the radio stations, he owned an insurance company, he owned a bank, a very wealthy man and a big supporter of the Civil Rights Movement. So some of my kinfolk who had left Georgia had gone to New York to escape segregation and they luckily had, you know, become partners with Percy Sutton. So they had a couple of jobs waiting on me and I was ready to get out of the South and Hosea Williams said, no, we need you. Hosea called me son. He always treated me like I was his own biological son. And many people thought I was his son. Because he would say, " ; I raised this boy, and you know, this is my boy, this is my son.” And they didn’t know. I said, " ; No, well, he’s like my godfather.” But Hosea made it happened. In 1967 I took the position. I was on the field staff. And after the assassination of Dr. King, Dr. Abernathy became president. And when Abernathy became president he had to build his own team, because most of the senior staff members who were working with Dr. King, they left the organization after the assassination of King. Andy Young left, C.T. Vivian left, Y.T. Walker left, James Bevel left, you know. And so, Abernathy had to build his own team. And he told Hosea Williams he wanted me to come off the field and work directly with him. And I was--Bob, I was blown away. Here’s the national president of SCLC asking a little old peon like me to come and work with him. And I was his special assistant, I was his communication director, and I would help write his speeches, I would fill in for him. I kind of became a regular on radio, TV, and in the media because a lot of time he would say, " ; I don’t want to do those interviews ; you do them" ; . And I said, " ; Well what about Reverend Bernard Lee?” Bernard Lee was Dr. King’s traveling companion. But after the assassination of Dr. King, Dr. Abernathy said, " ; Well Bernard is not going to be loyal to me as he was to Martin. So I need somebody to fill that slot.” So I became that young guy who always carried the bags, got the plane tickets, got the rental car, got the hotel, fill in for him. And Mrs. Abernathy, his widow who lives here in northwest Atlanta, could talk more about that than I can, because she told me one day, she said, " ; You know how much Ralph love you, how much he relied you.” I said, " ; No, I don’t.” She said, " ; He wouldn’t hardly do anything unless he was sure you were going to be with him.” He would travel. When he traveled around the world I was there with him. So my career in SCLC happened because of Hosea Williams, and was extended because of Ralph David Abernathy. And I did 20 years in SCLC, starting from my volunteer years and all the way up to 1980 when I came to the Georgia House of Representatives. SHORT: Let’s talk for a minute about the genesis of SCLC. It was formed by Dr. King and Reverend Abernathy. BROOKS: Yes. SHORT: Shortly after the bus boycott in Montgomery. BROOKS: You’re correct. After the Montgomery bus boycott which started on December 1, 1955, Rosa Park sat down on the front of the bus and refused to go to the back and she was arrested and Dr. King and Abernathy were both pastoring in Montgomery at that time. Dr. King was pastoring Dexter Avenue Baptist Church. He was only 26. Abernathy was pastoring First Baptist Church. He was only 28. So these were young bucks, as they would say. Young guys. They were not older men. And Dr. King, when he was assassinated was only 39. So you could see just how youthful they were. But they just happened to be pastoring in Montgomery at the time that Rosa Parks was arrested and her arrest kind of sparked the modern day civil rights movement. Now, you need to know that Rosa Parks was not the first woman to be arrested for sitting on the front of the bus. The first woman arrested was Claudette Colvin, who is today about 70, 72 years old and will be here in the Atlanta area very soon. She was a young teenager who got arrested but because of unique circumstances, she was not chosen to be the role model for a movement. But after Rosa Parks was arrested, Reverend E.D. Nixon, who was the NAACP president and also a A. Philip Randolph member in a railroad union, because he was a railroad man just like my daddy, Dr. King and Abernathy were really the catalyst working with Reverend Nixon to build that movement. That movement lasted 381 days. No black people rode those buses. They walked, they carpooled, they rode in taxi cabs owned by black folk, or they simply said, " ; We won’t move. We just will not get on those buses.” For 381 days. They broke the back of the Montgomery system. And they were sued – Dr. King and Abernathy were sued by Montgomery and the case went up to the Supreme Court and the Supreme Court ruled in their favor. So, after the Montgomery bus boycott, Dr. King, Dr. Abernathy, Reverend C.K. Steele from Tallahassee, Florida, Reverend Fred Shuttlesworth from Birmingham, Alabama, Reverend T.J. Jemison from Baton Rouge, Louisiana, Reverend Joseph Lowery, and Reverend S.L. Harvey, they met in Louisiana, in New Orleans, and they decided--well, we won in Montgomery, but the problem exists all across the South. We still have segregation. We still have racism. We still have these issues. We won in Montgomery but it’s not over. So they formed an organization to carry on that movement beyond Montgomery. And it was named the Southern Christian Leadership Conference. They moved the headquarters to Atlanta. And of course SCLC is still based in Atlanta. SCLC became the – I guess you could call us the – the modern day civil rights activist oriented organization. Because there had already been civil rights organizations before SCLC – the NAACP, the Congress of Racial Equality, you had the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee, you know. So you had other groups. But SCLC became something different, something unique, and it was because of King and Abernathy and that team of leaders. And so, when I look back at SCLC, I say you know what? Without SCLC we probably wouldn’t have defeated Jim Crow as we knew Jim Crow. We would not have desegregated America. We would not have gotten the ‘64 Civil Rights Act which came out of the Birmingham movement of ‘63. We would not have gotten the Voting Rights Act. which came out of the Selma movement in 1965. We would not have gotten the Open Housing Act which came out of the Chicago demonstrations in ‘66. You see? Without SCLC where would we be? The concept of affirmative action, looking at all of these black elected officials across America. We wouldn’t be in these positions. So, SCLC has played a very unique role that complements the work of the NAACP and the other organizations that were forerunners before SCLC. And so I’ll always be a part of SCLC. It’s like a lifetime membership, but the organization really changed the face of America and had an impact on the world. SHORT: Explain to us, if you will, Dr. King’s philosophy of non-violence and how he taught you and others how not to turn the other cheek. BROOKS: In the SCLC workshops that we had to attend before we could go out and organize communities, we weren’t just sent out. We were trained before we were sent out. People should understand that. You had to attend workshops and seminars and go through training to be employed by SCLC. You had to be checked out thoroughly because we weren’t taking any chances that you were a plant, that you could have been someone sent to the organization to create chaos and sabotage the work of Dr. King and Abernathy and become someone on the inside that could really create an explosive situation that could hurt the organization or hurt the leadership. So we had to go through extensive training. We would go to Macon, Georgia on Saturday mornings and we would meeting at Tremont Temple, we would meet at First African Baptist Church, and we would sit in these seminars and we would listen to Hosea Williams and Andy Young and Dorothy Cotton and C.T. Vivian and Y.T. Walker, Septima Clark, and they would walk us through how we had to conduct ourselves, how we had to organize communities and how we had to respect communities and how we had to adopt the philosophy of non-violence. That philosophy was transcended down from King because King had become a disciple of Mahatma Gandhi and reading and studying Gandhi and Gandhi’s use of non-violence in attacking apartheid in South Africa and across India. Dr. King became a student of Gandhi. And so, he developed this philosophy around the Gandhi principles. And he said if we’re going to run this organization and be successful we have to adopt those same principles. He said we cannot have the philosophy of an eye for an eye, you hit me I hit you. He said we have to be non-violent warriors. We can’t win this battle if we’re going to do to others what they’ve done to us. If you’re attacked you have to accept it. If you’re spat on you have to accept it. If you’re kicked you have to accept it. When you’re out leading marches and if the troopers hit you on the head with a billy club, get on the ground – we were taught how to protect. our bodies, how to get into the fetal position and roll up in a ball. We were taught all of that. If you’re tear gassed, how to protect your nostrils from the tear gas coming at you. If the dogs come at you what to do. Don’t run from the dogs because if you run they' ; re really going to attack you. So all of these techniques we were taught in seminars and in classes. Dorchester Academy down in Liberty County, Midway, Georgia was another training facility. Penn Center nears Charleston, South Carolina was another training facility. A little place called Frogmore, Penn Center. But here’s something that we learned from the teaching of King and this is something that really made us successful as organizers. Because you go to remember now, we were 15, 16, 17, young students in college and high school. Dr. King always said the ability for you to organize communities is going to be based on two things: your ability to keep cool heads. You can’t let people make you angry. Before your enemies can destroy you, they first must make you angry. You' ; ve got to remember that. That was instilled in us. You can’t let them make you mad. If you get angry, you pop off, you attack them back, they won. They get you angry they got you right where they want you to be. The Ku Klux Klan may call you the N word, but you' ; ve got to take it. They may call you a communist. You' ; ve got to take it. You know you’re not a communist. You' ; ve got to take this stuff. Before your enemies can destroy you, they first must make you angry. That was the first thing. The second thing is, in order to be successful as an organizer, you’ve got to relate to the people where they are and not necessarily where you want them to be. He said you go into communities and you' ; ve got to relate to the folk where they are. You go in talking over the people or down to the people you’ll never ever organize communities. You' ; ve got to be able to go out there and talk to those farmers in the fields. You' ; ve got to talk to the folks standing on the street corners, those unemployed kids doing crazy stuff. You' ; ve got to go to those corners you got to talk to them. You' ; ve got to go into the barber shops, the beauty shops, you' ; ve got to go into the places of worship. You' ; ve got to be able to relate to people. And he said if you can talk to people on their level and relate to them on their level you will be successful. If you go up talking over them you’re going to miss them. You’ll never organize. So those are two things that we were taught. And I think that’s why the SCLC organizers were so successful all across America. I mean all across this country. It was not just down here. We were in Chicago, we were in Los Angeles, we were in D.C., we were in New York, in New Jersey, in Detroit. We were all over. Hosea Williams had the largest staff in SCLC and we were scattered all across America and we were successful. Now some of our colleagues were killed. Some of them were brutalized and beaten and killed. I consider myself one of the blessed ones. I’m still here. But believe me, it was training, it was discipline, it was hard work, it was dangerous work, but that’s how SCLC was so successful in accomplishing so many things that people now take for granted. SHORT: You didn’t have the resistance in the rest of the country that you had in the South did you? BROOKS: In certain areas we did but it wasn’t consistent like the South. The South was, you know, still struggling to reckon with the desegregation and integration and because of the history of the South there was just automatic resistance. But when we went into Chicago- I was not in the first campaign in Chicago now. That was 1966. I was not there on the ground in the beginning. I went in later with Hosea. But in Chicago, where the late Reverend James Orange and James Bevel and a young Jesse Jackson – Jesse was based in Chicago in seminary school – they started these demonstrations in little pockets – little neighborhoods around Chicago, Gage Park and Cicero and Skokie. They started marching into these, we call them ethnic enclaves of recent immigrants who’ve come to America, they had set up these little neighborhoods but they didn’t want black people to move into them. There were segregated pockets around Chicago. And so, Jesse Jackson, James Orange and others, James Bevel, they begin to march. And Dr. King was called to Chicago. And Dr. King and Abernathy went to Chicago to march into these neighborhoods and they were attacked, they were attacked, and I mean they were hit with bricks and bottles and there were all kind of weapons all out there. People had guns and were it not for the FBI and the State Patrol of Illinois and law enforcement, I think Dr. King might have been killed in Chicago. If you look back at some of the old film footage where Dr. King was leading these marches in Chicago he’s ducking and he was interviewed right after one of those marches and he said, " ; You know what?” He said, " ; We have never faced mobs like these even in Mississippi and Alabama.” He said, " ; We were just absolutely shocked that we would receive this kind of resistance in the Chicago area. That was one area which was very tough. And when I fly into Chicago now and I have to go into the Midway airport rather than in O’Hare, you fly into Chicago in the Midway and you drive from Midway into Chicago. You go through some of those same neighborhoods where Dr. King and Abernathy had to lead those marches. Now Jesse Jackson decided to live in Chicago and he says even today in some of those neighborhoods there is resistance. Not as much, but there is resistance. So in certain parts of the country there was resistance. But it was not the same in the South. In the South you had the Ku Klux Klan, law enforcement, public officials all in the same boat. I mean the card carrying members of the Klan were, you know, the sheriffs, they were the majors, they were the commissioners, and in some instances, of course, law makers and legislators. It was a little different down here. But the South has changed tremendously and that’s why today when you look across the landscape of America you find more black elected officials across the Deep South than any other region of America today. SHORT: Wasn’t that due in part to the One Man, One Vote law? BROOKS: Absolutely. You know it was. After we overcame, you know, the county unit system and the way votes were apportioned based on areas rather than based on the one person one vote principle. And then of course, the Voting Rights Act. – the Voting Rights Act. But yes, a lot of the impediments that were in place to keep us out of public service have been dismantled and the Voting Rights Act has become the protector of voting rights across the South and other regions of America. You’re absolutely correct. SHORT: What is – what was the relationship between SCLC and other organizations like the NAACP and CORE? BROOKS: Dr. King and Abernathy had a very strong working relationship with the NAACP and CORE and the National Council of Negro Women and other groups, because you see, before SCLC King and Abernathy were NAACP which was founded in 1909. So when Dr. King and Abernathy created the idea of having SCLC as an organization nationally and chartered, they decided that SCLC was going to have an integral working relationship with all of these organizations that were forerunners to this young organization called the Southern Christian Leadership Conference. And if you recall, 1964 when Dr. King won the Nobel Peace Prize, when he was handed a check for $50,000 in 1964 – now today the prize is over a million. If you win the Nobel today you get a million dollar check. In 1964 he received a $50,000 in Oslo, Norway and he said in Oslo, Norway and it’s all chronicled in the media, you can go back and look at the film, he said I’m going to accept this check on behalf of the Civil Rights Movement. And he said this is a $50,000 check ; 10,000 will go to SCLC, 10,000 will go to the NAACP, 10,000 will go to the National Council of Negro Women. We’re going to give 10,000 to the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee. He said we’re going to divide this money up so that all of the organizations, Congress of Racial Equality, CORE, all of them will share in this prize. $50,000 was divided up among all the organizations. The check was made out to Martin Luther King, Jr. He endorsed the check, gave it to SCLC and then SCLC gave the other organizations $10,000. Now that was a lot of money in 1964. But that was an indication of how Dr. King as committed to working with all of the Civil Rights family, that SCLC was not going to be standing over here by itself. No, no, no, we’re in the family. We’re going to support all of the family members. And that’s why Dr. King had such a strong following. If you look back at the major marches on Washington, ‘63, beyond, Abernathy carried on. It was because all of these organizations connected to King and Abernathy because he was – they were reaching out to them. Bayard Rustin, who of course helped organize the march on Washington 1963 said there had never been leadership like these guys. They were young bucks. They were younger than Bayard Rustin, and he said, " ; We’ve never seen leaders embrace all of the other organizations like Dr. King and Abernathy.” And King and Abernathy were a team like that. You got to – you can’t separate those two guys. Everybody says Martin Luther King, Jr., and I always say don’t call the name Martin Luther King, Jr. without mentioning Ralph David Abernathy. They were a strong team. They were like brothers. And King would not do anything unless Abernathy was involved. King never made a decision unless Abernathy had input. He would not march – he would not go to jail unless Abernathy was with him. When he checked into a hotel when he was traveling, Abernathy had to be in the room with him. Had two beds – they were like brothers, and that’s the way they were in Memphis when King was assassinated in 1968. SHORT: You mentioned the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee. BROOKS: Uh-huh. SHORT: Which was a group of students, really, from around the country. But let’s go back to 1960 to Greensboro, North Carolina. BROOKS: Oh yeah. SHORT: In the first real sit-in at a segregated lunch counter. What can you tell us about that? BROOKS: Well, now I was not there but I know – many of my colleagues – some living today, like John Lewis – Congressman John Lewis, my neighbor, my congressman, my friend, my hero, who’s still living. John Lewis was a part of the student sit-in where students in D.C. and New York decided they were going to get on buses and they were going to travel across the South to sit-in at lunch counters. And I regret that I was not able to be there. I just wish I could have been there, but I was not. But John tells me the story of how they came to Greensboro and how they sat in, how they were beaten, how they were taunted, spat upon. He talked to me about how they went into Anniston, Alabama, Montgomery, Birmingham, they got to Anniston, one of the buses was burned. You could see the film. You could go back to the archives and look at the bus, the flames that had engulfed the bus in downtown Anniston and they barely got off the bus. Now you have to understand there were young white students joining these black students, so when the Ku Klux Klan or the law enforcement officials saw these white faces with these black faces they started attacking the white kids first. They were offended that white children, teenagers, college students would dare join these black folk. And so, the white students became the targets first. They were hit – they were beaten, tear gassed, acid thrown on them, dogs sicked on them first. Because it was like how dare you come down here and be with these black folks, you know. And so, John tells me, he said the white faces were the faces who were hit first and then they got to them. But John talked to me about the attacks. He talked to me about the tension. He talked to me about how the law enforcement officials would look the other way, the State Troopers and local law enforcement. If they saw them under attack they would just like turn their head away. And if you protected yourself and it appeared that you were being a little too aggressive you would be arrested for assault on a law enforcement officer. So I was not on the sit-ins with them but I have learned so much about the sit-ins from having a chance to sit with John Lewis and Faye Bellamine and Benny Ivy and Julian Bond, Jan Meadows, Connie Curry – Connie Curry – who’s written a book about the sit-ins. They have educated me on how the sit-ins occurred – Cleveland Sellers was another one who is now up at University of North Carolina. There were so many young people who dared to get on those buses and travel and risk their lives. That was a big part of the Civil Rights Movement, but I was not on those sit-ins with them. But I wish I had been. SHORT: I can remember the sit-ins in Atlanta. First at Leb’s Restaurant, at Richie’s. BROOKS: Yep. SHORT: Even at the Pickrick. BROOKS: Yes. Now Lonnie King, the great Lonnie King who was a student at Morehouse in the early 60s when I was still a kid growing up down in Warrenton, Lonnie King told me about the sit-ins in Atlanta, and he lives here in Atlanta up the street from Ebenezer Baptist Church on Jackson Street. But Lonnie King told me that as a young student at Morehouse – and he was chosen to be the leader and he was leading the marches from the campus downtown. And he said there was only one church in that AU campus neighborhood that was allowed the students to meet, and that was Reverend Joe Boone’s church, Rush Memorial Congregational Church. He said Reverend Boone decided that the students needed a place to congregate before they marched because they couldn’t do it on the campus ; they had to come off the campus. And he said Reverend Boone’s church was the only one – it’s on Brawley Drive now. It was Chestnut then, but it’s called Brawley now. But Lonnie King told me, he said, " ; Tyrone," ; he said, " ; it was very difficult for us.” He said, " ; We were fired up – we were determined to resist segregation in public accommodation. We started the marches from the campus downtown.” And he told me this story. You really should interview Lonnie King one day. He said, " ; Tyrone," ; he said, " ; One day I picked up the phone and I called ML.” He called Martin Luther King, Jr. M.L. That’s what he called – he was a member at Ebenezer now. Lonnie King and his mother were members of Ebenezer – may still be. He may be. His mother’s deceased. But Lonnie said he called M.L. one day, and he said M.L. picked up the phone and he said – M.L. said, " ; My daddy’s on the other line," ; daddy King. Lonnie began to ask Dr. King, and literally beg Dr. King to come and join the students. Because Dr. King was going all over the world, you know, traveling. And Lonnie said he kept saying to M.L. we need you to come and give the students support. You’re the leader. Everybody identifies with you. If you come and give us support we know we’ll get more students, we’ll get more support ; we’ll get more media attention, which is important, of educating the public. He said Dr. King was just listening. He would say anything. But he said he could hear daddy King saying, Martin, no, son, you got too much to do. You don’t need to get bogged down in Atlanta. You got things in Alabama, you got things in Mississippi, you got New York, you got everywhere. Don’t get bogged down at home. You’re not going to get any support at home. This is your hometown. You’re not going to get the same following in your hometown. He said this is what daddy King was saying and Lonnie was listening. And finally, Lonnie said after talking to Dr. King and begging him for about 15 minutes, he said Dr. King said, " ; Lonnie, I’ve heard everything you said. All I need to know is where do you want me to meet you and what time?” (Laughter) And Lonnie told him. He said I want you to meet us – Lonnie told where. I don’t remember where. But Lonnie said I want you to meet us – he might have said Rush Memorial. He said I want you to meet us this place at this time. We’ll have all the students ready for you. We’re going to put the word out that you’re coming. We’re going to leaflet the campuses. And he said when Dr. King showed up he probably had ten times more support. And I saw a picture of Dr. King and Lonnie King with this young student – this female student in the middle of them. The AJC did a little profile on Lonnie about a year ago and when I saw the profile on Lonnie I called him up and I said, " ; Tell me who that beautiful woman is in the middle of you and Dr. King and then tell me about some of the others behind you.” And he walked me through all of that. He told me who the people were. And I said, " ; Where are y’all going on this day?” He said, " ; We were going to Rich’s Department store on that day.” He said we’re going to Rich’s on that day. And he said the next day we went up the street and we started picketing other businesses. He said but the target was Rich’s because Rich’s was a large employer in downtown Atlanta at that time. So Lonnie King is someone that has educated me on the student movement in Atlanta in the early 60s and how Dr. King became a part of the student movement. Dr. King was not the leader. Lonnie King was the leader. And he says they’re not related. Lonnie says there is no relation but I said Lonnie, you’re a King, he’s a King, you got to be in some kind of way. There’s got to be a connection. Lonnie King was born down in South Georgia. I forget the little town he was born in. Of course Dr. King was born here in Atlanta. But Lonnie King is someone, along with Julian Bond and others, who could really give you the kind of in depth history of how that student movement took off here in Atlanta. But Lonnie King says Dr. King was a major contributor to boosting them up and giving them more support and more media attention came after Dr. King got there. They were arrested. Dr. King went to jail at Rich’s with them. SHORT: You been to jail 66 times. BROOKS: Correct. SHORT: Tell us about some of those. BROOKS: Oh Lord. You know, I’ve been to jail in my home state of Georgia a few times. But I remember the incident of going to jail in 1968 in Washington D.C. This was during the Poor People’s Campaign. Willie Bolden was the wagon master that brought the mule train, which is a major component of the Poor People’s Campaign, from Marks, Mississippi all the way to D.C. And the reason that mule train took off from Marks, Mississippi in 1968 is because that’s where Dr. King and Abernathy decided that there should be a Poor People’s Campaign march on Washington to focus on poverty in American. Poverty, period. Poverty among poor white folks, poor black folks, you name it. Said Dr. King and Abernathy went to Marks, Mississippi to witness the abject poverty that had been portrayed in the media. The New York Times and other media had written stories about poverty across the South and in Appalachia, and they focused on Marks, Mississippi. Marks, Mississippi in 1968, according to the U.S. Department of Agriculture, was the poorest county in America. And so King and Abernathy went out there. And Dr. Abernathy and Hosea told me that when Dr. King landed they drove him to Marks, Mississippi. So Dr. King started looking around and he saw outdoor toilets, he saw homes with no running water, he saw shotgun houses with holes in the roof. He saw little children walking around bare feet. Little children little bellies protruding because of malnutrition. He said Dr. King said, " ; I can’t believe this is America.” Dr. Abernathy talked to me about this. He said Tyrone, he said, " ; Martin broke down and cried like a baby" ; . He said, " ; Martin King cried like a baby when he saw this poverty, just cried" ; . Said, " ; Ralph, I just can’t believe people in America, the richest nation on the planet, could live in conditions like these.” He said Martin broke down and cried like a baby. You know, just – just weeping. And he got up and he said, " ; Ralph, Hosea, we' ; ve got to call this to the attention of America. We' ; ve got to do something about this.” And that’s when they decided that there would be a Poor People’s Campaign to go to Washington and demand from Congress and the White House and all of the federal agencies, focus on poverty. And you recall the Herman Talmadges of the world and the Ernest Hollings of the world, from South Carolina, these were very powerful men in Congress. They headed powerful committees. And the Civil Rights Movement was able to get their attention. Well, Hosea sent me to Marks, Mississippi to help Willie Bolden bring that mule train across Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, Carolinas, Virginia on up to D.C. So we came across Mississippi with a State Patrol escort. Came across Alabama with a State Patrol escort. As we’re coming into Georgia across that Alabama line, the first town is Tallapoosa. We come up I-20 coming into Tallapoosa. Governor Lester Maddox said, " ; I’m not letting no mules come down I-20 into Atlanta.” We had a mule train. We had mules up front. And we said we are coming because we come across Alabama on interstate highways with State Patrol escort, Mississippi, here were are coming into our home state of Georgia. Maddox said no. So he sent Lieutenant Hightower down I-20 – a big tall trooper. The tallest trooper I’ve ever seen in my life. Seven feet tall. He came down there and he said, " ; If you don’t get off this interstate we’re going to arrest you.” " ; We’re not getting off the interstate.” So they arrested us. Put Willie Bolden in the jail in Tallapoosa, put me in the jail in Douglasville, and they locked up our mules in stockade. Yeah. The news media called Dr. Abernathy. All the media rushed to Dr. Abernathy in Washington D.C. He was already at Resurrection City in D.C. We had set up what we called Resurrection City, which was a tent city from the Washington Monument to the Lincoln Monument on the mall. Nothing but tents. And so the media called Dr. Abernathy. " ; Dr. Abernathy, your mule train is in jail in Georgia. What are you going to do?” And Dr. Abernathy with his slow Linden County, Alabama southern drawl said, " ; Well, we’re going to give the governor of Georgia 24 hours to release our mules and our staff. Otherwise, we might have to move Resurrection City from D.C. to Atlanta.” The next day Governor Maddox said, " ; We’re going to let the mule train come on into Atlanta. We’re going to have the State Patrol escort them in.” So the troopers came out. Lieutenant Abernathy came out and the troopers escorted us on into Atlanta. We brought those mules and wagons down I-20 and we stayed at Pascal’s on Martin Luther King. It was Hunter Street then. It wasn’t Martin Luther King in ‘68. And we had our rally at the old West Hunter Street Baptist Church which is right down the street there on the corner of Chestnut and Hunter then. Today it’s Martin Luther King and Brawley. The next morning the troopers came, they escorted us on down I-20 to Augusta and then across – went across Augusta in South Carolina, South Carolina troopers picked us up. Then North Carolina, then Virginia into D.C. Well, we get to D.C., about a week after we arrive Dr. Abernathy, Hosea, Willie Bolden, Jimmy Wells, Bobby Nelson, we went over to the U.S. Capitol building. Jimmy had just had a march – led a march on the U.S. Capitol that day. Cause every day there were marches on federal agencies, Department of Justice, the White House, the Congress. On this particular day, Jimmy Wells – Jimmy Wells, by the way, just retired from the Fulton County Marshall Service. He’s retired now, but he was an SCLC staffer then. He had just had a march. The march is over. But here you have Abernathy and Hosea together with us standing around. We didn’t matter to the police but the police decided we’re going to arrest Abernathy today. And when they arrested Abernathy they arrested the whole group. And the charges were there was a march on the Capitol but there was not sufficient permits for this particular march. Well Jimmy Wells said he had the permits. The march is over. Everybody’s scattered. But this was a tactic to bust up the movement. So they took Dr. Abernathy and Hosea to jail, too us along with them. So we were in the D.C. jail over night. The next morning we faced an African American judge – the next morning. Go into the courtroom and you know the judge says, " ; Dr. Ralph David Abernathy, we’re honored to have you here in D.C. We want to thank you for your spirit of non-violence and the fact. that we aren’t having a whole lot of incidents with all these people in from all over the world. But Dr. Abernathy, your staff violated code section so and so and so of the District of Columbia and unfortunately this court has to impose a fine of $200 each or give you 30 days in jail.” And Dr. Abernathy responded. He said Your Honor, " ; Thank you for your kind words," ; he said, " ; but we’re on a Poor People’s campaign ; we don’t have $200 to give the court.” He said, " ; Unfortunately, we’ll just have to do the time.” So they took us back to our cells. Now Dr. Abernathy was in a big cell ; he had TV and nice furniture and everything. We were in these little old small cells. Hosea said to Dr. Abernathy, he said, " ; Doc, you’re the president, you got to get out. You got to go back to Resurrection City. The only person over there is Jesse Jackson. And every ten or fifteen minutes he’s hold news conferences. That’s all he’s doing. You got to get out.” So Dr. Abernathy said okay. He got out. The next day, Willie Bolden, Jimmie Wells, Bobby Nelson convinced Hosea to get out. We said, " ; Hosea, you’re the organizer. Dr. Abernathy needs you. You need to get out.” So he said okay, he got out. The rest of us stayed in jail. We did 12 days in the D.C. jail. On the 13th day we were transported across the river to Lorton, Virginia to a federal prison because the D.C. jails were full. Civil rights workers going to jail every day for marching. And so, we get to the Lorton Federal Pen and the warden walks up, we all lined up there, you know, we young rookies, big afros, skinny guys, you know, and the warden says what’s your name? I said Tyrone Brooks. He said young man, he said, " ; We have a policy here. If you work a day you get a day off. And you could be out of here in about six days.” I said, " ; Sir, I work for the Southern Christian Leadership Conference. I’m not working for your prison.” He said, " ; You' ; ll go into the hole then, meaning solitary confinement.” So they put me in the hole. Everybody else in line said the same thing. We’re not working for your prison. We all were in solitary in separate little cells. For about 12 days – I asked Reverend Walter Fauntroy who was our leader in D.C. to bring me all of Dr. King books. So he brought me a big old box of books and I read Dr. King’s books. We all agreed to fast – no food, just water and juice for 12 days. Now we were already skinny guys and here we are fasting. Fasted for 12 days. We were in these where you didn’t have windows. You didn’t know if it was sun up or sun down. You didn’t know if it was day time or night time. Well we fasted for 12 days and Reverend Fauntroy picked us up on the 13th day and brought us back to Resurrection City. So I did, along with my colleagues, we did almost 30 days in the D.C. jail in 1968. But the longest period of time I stayed in jail was right here in Georgia. 1970, Covington, Georgia, Newton County. Hosea sent me down to Covington to lead a movement and there was a sheriff by the name of Junior Odom--arrested me and my colleagues. We stayed in his jail for 45 days awaiting trial on civil rights charges – marching without permits, inciting a riot, all this stuff they were always throwing us. Finally, federal judge, because Maynard Jackson was vice-mayor of Atlanta who tried to get us out. He couldn’t get us. Billy Randall from Macon who just finished law school who became a state representative, he tried to get us, couldn’t get us. Dr. Abernathy sent attorney Howard Moore. Howard Moore went to a federal judge here in Atlanta whose name was Tidwell, and I think it’s Ernest Tidwell. SHORT: Ernest Tidwell. BROOKS: Ernest Tidwell signed a federal habeas corpus order that was delivered by U.S. Marshals. And that order said you try them now or you release them now. One way or the other you’re going to deal with them. Try them now or release them now. When the Federal Marshals delivered the papers to the sheriff and the District. Attorney down in Newton County, they both said we’re dropping charges. So we were released. But we stayed in jail 45 days. That was the longest period I’ve ever been in jail. But it happened right here in my home state of Georgia, not in Mississippi, Alabama, anywhere else. It happened here. The last time I went to jail was 2003 in Taliaferro County. Some people said Toliver [ph] County but we pronounced it Taliaferro. The county commissioners down in Crawfordsville, Taliaferro, were resisting a landfill coming into their county. And because they were members of the Georgia Association of Black Elected Officials where I serve as president, they came and asked me for help. And they explained to me that a superior court judge, Judge Parnell Davis from my home county of Warren was the sitting judge. They said Judge Davis is over this circuit and he says if we don’t sign these papers to allow this company to do the environmental impact studies and apply for a permit with the EPD of Georgia, he is going to put us in jail for contempt of court. And we made a decision to go to jail because don’t want a landfill in our community. And we were sitting in a meeting over at the Atlanta Life Building on Auburn when they came. Dr. Joe Lowery was sitting in the meeting with me. And when they said, " ; Tyrone, we’re going to jail, we want you to go with us," ; Joe Lowery said, " ; Well, if he goes to jail I’m going.” And so the commissioners resisted the court order, they defied a Superior Court judge and the judge ordered the sheriff to pick them up. On the day that they were going to be picked up, Dr. Lowery and I and others went down to Crawfordsville, went to the sheriff’s office, we told the sheriff, " ; We’re going to jail with these commissioners.” And the sheriff said, " ; Well you haven’t done anything.” We said, " ; Well they haven’t done anything either, but if you’re going to take them to jail we’re going.” That was 2003. So Dr. Lowery and I went to jail with those three commissioners down in Crawfordsville, Taliaferro County. They took us up to Greensboro because there is no jail in Crawfordsville. And they took us up to Greensboro and we were arrested with them. And finally, the commissioners won their case before the Georgia Supreme Court. They won their case. But it was a funny thing about that. Right before the judge signed the order to put them in jail, he saw me sitting in the back of the courtroom in Thomson. And when the court was over the judge said," ; Well, Representative Brooks, would you come down front?” I walked down – I been knowing him all my life because he grew up in my hometown. He and my older sister used to play together in my mama’s backyard. So he called me down the bench. He said, " ; You’re going to sit back there and not come up to speak to me?” I said, " ; Your Honor, I said I was invited by these commissioners and I didn’t want to do anything in your court that might embarrass you.” He said, " ; Well, you know, I' ; ve been knowing you since you were a little boy ; I don’t understand why you – “ I said, " ; Well, I’m here with the commissioners. I just want you to know, if you’re going to put them in jail I got to go with them.” And he just shook his head like oh, my God, no. He is retired from the bench but he lives right there in Warrenton behind the courthouse. Parnell Davis. When I got elected to the legislature, whenever he came to Atlanta he would come in this chamber to visit with me. So, 2003 was the last arrest for me in my career. And I had the chance of taking Dr. Joe Lowery with me on that occasion. SHORT: The two things that really, really gave impetus to the movement were the sit-ins and Bloody Sunday. BROOKS: You’re right. SHORT: Got national attention. It was a disgrace. BROOKS: It was a disgrace but it happened and the late Maynard Jackson used to say that Bloody Sunday march which produced the Voting Rights Act, he said – Maynard would say the Voting Rights Act. became the most important federal legislation signed into law since the Emancipation Proclamation. That’s the way Maynard Jackson used to refer to that Voting Rights Act.. And he said the Voting Rights Act. came into being because of that march. But I was not in that first one. Of course all of us have seen the film and Hosea and John Lewis have talked to me about how it happened, what happened, many of the people that were injured on that bridge later died. But were it not for that march, there wouldn’t have been a Voting Rights Act. Without a Voting Rights Act, you would not be talking to me today as a law maker. SHORT: Yep. MALE SPEAKER: We got that. BROOKS: Oh, you got that? MALE SPEAKER: Yes, so you can keep going if you want. SHORT: Well, there’s no doubt that the Bloody Sunday in Selma, Alabama passed the Johnson’s Votings Right Act. BROOKS: No doubt about it. SHORT: That completely changed politics in the South. BROOKS: It changed the politics of the South. It really changed the course of America in terms of our how American would become a greater nation by allowing a people of color to serve in a body politic. I just wish I had been in Selma that day. But Hosea Williams was based in Selma. C.T. Vivian was based in Selma. John Lewis was working for the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee, SNCC, and John was down the road in Lowndes County, which is a little county between Dallas and Montgomery. If you’re on Highway 80, you come out of Selma going to Montgomery, about halfway up there’s a little place called Whitehall, that’s Lowndes County and that’s where SNCC was based. Rap Brown, Stokely Carmichael, John Lewis, all of them. All right. Up there in Selma, C.T. Vivian and Hosea and James Bevel had been organizing in Selma and they had agreed with the local citizens that they were going to march from Selma to Montgomery. The reason they were going to march is because right down the road in Marion a young man who had been in Vietnam who had come back home was killed because he dared to stand up and ask the State Troopers and police to stop beating his granddaddy and his mother. His name was Jimmy Lee Jackson. Jimmy Lee Jackson was killed in Marion, Alabama before the march took off from Selma, Montgomery. James Orange told me – he was in Marion – he told me one day, he said Ms. Lucy Foster and other women, Amelia Boynton decided after Jimmy Lee Jackson was killed in Marion that they were going to march to Montgomery to protest all this violence. And after Jimmy Lee Jackson was killed there was an agreement that they would march from Selma to Montgomery which is 50 miles. Hosea was there in Selma. C.T. Vivian was in Selma. James Bevel was in Selma. And Dr. King was in and out. On the day that they had agreed to march Hosea was still there. Dr. King had to preach at Ebenezer. Dr. King sent Andy Young over to Selma to tell Hosea to wait till next week. And Hosea said Dr. King needs to understand the people here in Selma are going to march whether I go with them, whether you go with them, whether he’s here or not, they’re going to march because they’re sick and tired of these killings and they want the right to vote so they want to go to Montgomery. Have to cross that Edmund Pettus Bridge to get to Montgomery. Hosea said he told Andy, " ; Andy, tell Dr. King we’ll march today. When he gets here he can lead a march. But we got to go today.” Hosea said to me, he said, James Bevel came up to him and said, " ; Hosea, Dr. King changed his mind ; he said go ahead and march and he’ll catch up with you later.” Well James Bevel was a jokester. Hosea said Dr. King had never told Bevel that, but Hosea said to me, he said Bevel was trying to give him encouragement, just go ahead and march. Well, Hosea decided that he would kick off the march in Brown Chapel AME with Reverend F.D. Reese. John Lewis came up from Whitehall, Lowndes County, to join them. So when you look at the photographs of the lead marchers, you see Hosea Williams on – in your photograph he would be on your left side. John is on the right side. Hosea has on a – I think he has on a white trench coat, John has on a black trench coat. I think that’s the way it goes, or vice versa. Well they are right up front. Right behind them is Reverend F.D. Reese, pastor of Brown Chapel. And Hosea told me it was about two or three hundred people with them. And Hosea says as they begin to march up – got right up on the top of that bridge, the State Troopers were waiting. And he said the sheriff – Jim Clark – of Selma and those State Troopers had blocked the bridge and they could hear them on their bullhorns saying, Stop, do not come any further. Stop. And Hosea said he and John decided we ain’t stopping, we going on no matter what happens. He said as they continued to march those troopers kept coming toward them in a wall. It was like a long line, a wall of troopers just coming at them. And they had billy clubs and they had tear gas and they had dogs on the side and they had trucks behind them. And Hosea says all of a sudden it just looked like an army facing them. And he said the tear gas started coming, the troopers started coming, then there were law enforcement officers on horseback swinging billy clubs and running over women and children, shooting that tear gas, just beating people, just beating people. And they beat them back across the bridge and Hosea said some people couldn’t get up and they were still beating – the were beaten down again. They were beaten down and they couldn’t move. And he said he and John made it back to the church. And Hosea told me, he said, " ; Tyrone, when we looked back at the bridge we could see blood running down that bridge toward us where they had brutalized people so much so that their wound had opened up and blood was coming down that bridge.” He said tear gas was in the air like a fog, like a thick fog. And he said they went back to the church and they gathered there at the church and he said they called Dr. King to let him know what had happened. And then all of the sudden here came all the media coverage, you know. Cause all the cameras were rolling. All the networks were there. And pictures, you know, in Life magazine, Look magazine, New York-- SHORT: It had woke up the conscious of America. BROOKS: It touched the conscious of America and it touched the president of the United States. It touched Hubert Humphrey and Everett Dirksen who were the leaders in Congress. Humphrey being the leading Democrat, Dirksen being the leading Republican. And Hosea told me that he and Dr. Abernathy and Dr. King all conferred and said Dr. King called President Johnson, said we want to meet. And he said, " ; We want you to know that we’re going to march from Selma to Montgomery come hell or high water.” Dr. King said, " ; Mr. President, you make the decision on whether or not we will receive federal protection.” And he said the president said, " ; You will have federal protection. We’re going to have Federal Marshals there. We’re going to nationalize the National Guard. We’re going to have FBI and we’re going to have enough troopers to protect you all the way to Montgomery. We guarantee you that.” And of course, President Johnson was, you know, holding his news conferences and speaking and saying the negroes have a right to march, they have a right to peaceful assemble, they have a right to vote. And so, the federal government protected that second march. If there had not been federal agents all the way from Selma to Montgomery, I believe a whole lot of folks would have died. But the protection of the federal government allowed that march to proceed the second one with King leading it all the way. And you know, some of us little rookies, we were on the tail end of the march, we could see the troopers but we could also see in the distance – we knew they were Klansmen. We could see people in little pick up trucks with shotgun racks and we knew who they were, but they were not going to come near those Federal Marshals. They knew those Federal Marshals were going to drop them if they did. So they stayed back from us. There were taunts along the route. You know, a truck full of them would ride by us and scream the N word at us and call young white kids N lovers. There were a whole lot of white faces in that march, of course, all the way. It was a mixture of blacks and whites and brown, red, yellows, lot of Jewish leaders who had come down from the North. A lot of famous Hollywood entertainers and actors were in that march. Harry Belafonte, Sammy Davis, Jr., Dick Gregory, all these great leaders. Joan Baez and you know. So we were – we were awe that we were seeing all these people that we see all the time in the media. Well we get to Montgomery and Dr. King delivered his message on the front steps of the Capitol. And it was so – I don’t know what – I can’t describe the feeling. Being able to march all the way and then stand back in that crowd listening to Dr. King. Abernathy introduced him. Listening to Dr. King standing up there speaking and saying that we would get the right vote. And I remember Dr. Abernathy telling me that after that march how they met in the White House with President Johnson and President Johnson said, " ; Yes, we’re going to move this legislation through Congress, it’s going to be bipartisan, there was resistance from the Southern Dixiecrats, the Strom Thurmonds and others, of course. But the bill passed with bipartisan support. And Humphrey and Dirksen led it and Johnson signed it. But when Johnson signed it he said, " ; I’m delivering the South to the Republican Party.” For the next 100 years I’m delivering the South. Well we don’t think 100 years. But we think that the Voting Rights Act and the Civil Rights Act certainly were historic and monumental in many ways. It helped change America. It helped American become a greater nation because people of color had been able to move into the body politic. But also, it gave the Republican Party an opportunity to take advantage of disgruntled white people in the South. The Nixon strategy has been quite successful in galvanizing support across the South where this is the only region of America that the Republican Party have a base today. This is the only region. And this base is shrinking now, but this is – this is a result of the Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act. SHORT: Are those two really the greatest triumphs of the movement? BROOKS: I think so. I think in the words of Maynard Jackson, the Voting Rights Act became the most important legislation ever signed into law since the Emancipation Proclamation. That’s what Maynard used to say all the time. He said without the right to vote we wouldn’t have the opportunities that we have. We wouldn’t – we wouldn’t have the standard of the living that we enjoy today. We would not have business opportunities, economic opportunities, the chance to go to school any place you want to go, all of the things that have come to make America greater have been as a result of the Voting Rights Act. And so, I don’t think you can dismiss the Voting Rights Act and say well, it was just an act. No, one of the most – it has to be considered the crown achievement of the Civil Rights Revolution. Civil Rights Act is fine. Civil Rights Act opened up public accommodations, educational institutions, neighborhoods where we can live. But if you don’t have the right to vote you really are not a part of your society. If you don’t have the right to vote you really can’t make a decision as to the course of your government, federal, state and local. So I agree with Maynard Jackson. The Voting Rights Act became the most important piece of federal legislation since the Emancipation Proclamation. SHORT: What do you think are the most important issues facing African Americans today? BROOKS: I think today it is economic. It is not civil rights. It’s economic empowerment. It is having the opportunity to have a job, earn decent wage, raise your family, stabilize your neighborhood, educate your children, reduce crime in your neighborhoods. I think it’s all around economics today, economics which impact the poverty in our midst. And it’s not just African Americans ; it’s poor white folks, it’s Latino Hispanics, some segment of the Asian population, Native Americans. We’re all in this together. But in the African American community, when you start talking about the ills of our society, there’s a greater disproportionate impact on the African American community than any other segment of the population. Latino Hispanics--right behind us of course. But I think today if you talk about a movement, it has to be centered around economics. It’s about a greater infusion of the wealth in a more equalized way so that all of the neighborhoods, all of the children, all of the communities can be lifted up. It’s about economics today. It’s about jobs. If you give a person a job, let them earn a decent wage, you can reduce the crime, you can keep families together, you can reduce your prison population, the stress on law enforcement and the courts. So today, this millennium, 2009 and beyond, we’ve got to focus on an economic enhancement movement. We’ve defeated Jim Crow. We’ve buried segregation. That’s over. We do have pockets of resistance today. But we don’t have to worry about the Ku Klux Klan any more. The Ku Klux Klan is bygone relic of our history. But today we have to worry about creating jobs and giving people an opportunity to earn a decent wage and paying the mortgage, paying the tuition, having decent transportation, a clean environment. This is what the movement has to deal with today. This is what the new Civil Rights Movement has to confront today. The crime in our communities, we read about it, we see it every day. Saving these young children from lives of misery and jails and prisons. SHORT: What’s the status of the SCLC today? BROOKS: SCLC is transitioning into new leadership. My good friend Senator Charles Steele has retired. He gave it five years – he resigned from the senate in Alabama to head it for five years. He’s moved on. He and I are still committed to SCLC, we love SCLC. SCLC has to adapt to the changing issues in our society. SCLC has to be the Civil Rights vanguard, but SCLC has to focus on economic enhancement and education and saving our children from lives of misery, and keeping families together. That comes back to economics. Because the stress on families sometimes causes families to disintegrate, break up. The families break up. And this happens in the black community more so than any other segment. The families break up. Daddy goes one way, mama goes one way, the children are lost. There’s no compact family to raise the children and the children end up in juvenile, they graduate to real crimes, they end up in big prisons, lives of misery. They serve their time, they come back, can’t get a job, got a stigma of a felony on their record. And this leads to more crime. This leads to more recidivism. And so, the civil rights leaders of today have to be focused more on economic development, economic enhancement so that we can keep families together, we can reduce the crime, we can enhance education, and I think this is the next civil rights movement in this country. I really do. It’s got to be around economics. And Jesse Jackson preaches it more than anybody. But I think that’s the next frontier for the civil rights movement. SHORT: When did you get interested in becoming a politician? BROOKS: Well, it wasn’t my idea to ever be in public office. Reverend Joe Boone, who was the first Director of Operation Bread Basket in SCLC, he was of Dr. King’s ministers in that inner circle, he suggested to me the latter part of 1979 that I should come to the Georgia Legislature. When he said that to me I said, " ; You mean you want me to go and do some research? You want me to go and pick up some legislation? You want me to run an errand? What do you mean?” He said, " ; No, we want you to serve.” And I said, " ; Reverend Boone, nobody’s going to vote for me.” I said, " ; I’m considered a radical civil rights worker. Who will vote for me?” Big afro, Dashiki on, Tommie Smith/John Carlos medallion around my neck. I said who’s going to vote for me? You know what he said to me? " ; He said well they’ve already voted for your daddy, Hosea Williams. He’s up there already.” Hosea was elected in 1974. Well I told him no. I said no way. I said the people of Atlanta are not going to vote for anybody like me. And he said, well, you think about it. The next day Dr. Ralph David Abernathy called me and he said, " ; Son, Joe Boone called. He tells me we want you to go to the legislature.” I said, " ; Dr. Abernathy, you know nobody' ; s going to –" ; He said, " ; They’ve already voted for Hosea.” " ; What do you mean?” " ; Julian Bond is up there.” " ; Yeah, but not me.” Well they got me into the race in 1980. We won the race and we’re here on the verge of 30 years and it’s almost unbelievable. This was an accident that I didn’t plan but it happened. SHORT: Well let’s talk about your goals. You came here in what, 1981? BROOKS: Yeah, I was sworn in in ‘81. SHORT: Freshman legislator. What did you hope to accomplish? BROOKS: I just wanted to survive it. I just wanted to come in and exist and work with my colleagues. And I remember the late Sydney Marcus taking me to Speaker Murphy – Tom Murphy, who was the king of this chamber. We called him King Murphy. The late Sydney Marcus took me in before I was sworn in and I remember sitting in Speaker Murphy’s office on this couch, just the three of us, and Speaker Murphy said, " ; Young man," ; he said, " ; we know who you are, you don’t have anything to prove. I just want to know one thing.” I said, " ; What is that, Mr. Speaker?” He said, " ; Do you want to be a serious law maker?” I said, " ; Yes, that’s why I’m here.” He said, " ; If you want to be a serious law maker I’ll help you.” He said, " ; I will always be there for you to help you, to guide you, to advise you, but I will never do anything that will hurt me back home in Bremen.” He said, " ; I have to get elected in Bremen in Haralson County. You get elected in Atlanta.” He said, " ; If I can help you without hurting myself back home in Bremen, you can come to me.” He said, " ; But always know, if you give me your word on something I expect you to keep it.” He said, " ; If you can’t keep your word come back and tell me.” We shook hands and Speaker Murphy made it possible for me to become successful in moving legislation. He and Larry Walker, Terry Coleman, Calvin Smyre they have helped me survive here for 30 years. And I gave you a little legislative chronology. You can peruse it and see what we’ve been able to accomplish. I always tell people whatever you congratulate me on moving legislation through that’s okay, but you have to understand I am just one vote. If I can’t get 90 other people to vote with me, legislation doesn’t pass. So it’s not me moving legislation ; it us moving legislation, collectively. And that’s the legislative process. But if you have a presiding officer who will cooperate and work with you, you have a governor who will work with you, you have a senate that will work with you, you can move legislation. So whatever – whatever people give me credit for, they should understand that it was a collective group of us that were able to come together and do it as a team rather than one single individual. And I know how, you know, the media will say well, Brooks passed this or Brooks – no, well, Brooks introduced it but we passed it. And so I’m proud that we’ve been able to accomplish some meaningful, significant legislation that – SHORT: Two significant things. First the flag. BROOKS: Yes. SHORT: You were an early leader in an effort to change the flag. BROOKS: Yeah, in the early 80s I was asked to take the lead on the flag issue and it lasted almost 20 years and we were able to reach consensus in 2001 when Roy Barnes was governor. And Roy Barnes helped us tremendously get the votes. Speaker Murphy did not block us. He could have just winked his eye and killed us, but Speaker Murphy gave us the green light and we were able to get it out and Mark Taylor was Lieutenant Governor and we were able to get it enacted. On December 31st, 2001 Governor Barnes signed it into law and gave me the pen. And I said I want to chop this pen up and give pieces to all of my colleagues who helped. He said well I got pens for them, too, don’t worry. But that was a significant day for us because we took down the old Confederate Battle Flag, retired it to the museums and archives and raised the new flag. And we’re very proud of that accomplishment. But the work we did in areas of judicial reform where we – we had to challenge the state on – SHORT: Yeah, let’s talk about – I was going to talk – ask you about that. BROOKS: Well it started out as a lawsuit in 1988 to force the state to give more African Americans opportunities to become judges and prosecutors. And it led to an out-of-court settlement under the watch of Governor Zell Miller. We signed and out-of-court agreement in 1992 that has led to the election and appointment of more African American judges of any state in America now. We lead the nation in terms of black judges. From the Supreme Court, Court of Appeals, Superior Court, State court on down to Magistrate Court. We’re number one. So that litigation which led to an out-of-court settlement, to me has become a landmark. It’s called the Brooks litigation but you look at it, you have to say that all of the co-plaintiffs working with us across the state, Michael Bowers, who was Attorney General ; Laughlin McDonald over at ACLU, our lawyer ; Governor Miller signed it in his office. To me, that was a very monumental day because it changed the face of our judicial branch. It reformed the judicial branch, not only getting us more black judges and opportunities to become prosecutors in these circuits across the state that are 30% and above black, but it also changed the judicial nominating commission, judicial qualification commission to give us input. And I think the other thing, if you look at that whole chronology of legislation, reforming the welfare system in the mid 80s, having the support of Joe Mack Wilson from Cobb County as my partner on that, changing the old workfare program to what we call Peach today and how we' ; ve moved from punitive welfare reform to positive job creation and support to give people a hand up so they can become gainfully employed. And then finally, I think when you look at what we did for the law enforcement community in 2006. If you look at that chronology you’ll see House Bill 101. Governor Perdue signed it into law. House Bill 101 was a bill that we sponsored to help those African American law enforcement officers who had been denied membership in the Peace Officers Benefit Annuity Retirement Fund, which is a pension system. They couldn’t join because of their race, in the 50s. And all the through ‘64 and all the way up to ‘76 they were locked out. Once it came to our attention, Governor Barnes and the late Bill Cummings – not late but former Representative Bill Cummings, we all worked together and got Senator Eric Johnson in the senate from Savannah – we all worked together and we passed House Bill 101. And what it did was it allowed these law enforcement officers who had been denied membership in the pension fund, Peace Officers Benefit Annuity Retirement Fund, to come in. The state paid half their membership. They paid the other half to come into the fund. So their pensions will increase when they retire, and many are retiring now. But Governor Perdue signed that in 2006. And when I travel around the state and I run into law enforcement officers, black and white, they say thank you. Because nobody had paid any attention to this. And I said well, it came to my attention from Sergeant Earl Westbrook on the Atlanta Police Department and Sergeant Richard Strout. Westbrook is black, Strout happens to be white. Strout, who still works with the APD, Strout pushed these black officers to get legislation enacted so they could enhance their pensions. And to me, that’s very, very, very important. So, you know, I let people judge what’s the most important in terms of what we’ve been able to accomplish over these 30 years. But to me those are very meaningful, significant pieces of legislation I have worked on. Everything we do is important, but those are things that we’re very proud of. Reapportionment of course. Passing legislations and challenging the reapportionment process from ‘81 to ‘92 to 2001 to make sure that we got fair, equal representation in terms of districts, congressional and legislative and all the way down county and municipal to make sure that African Americans and minorities would be represented in the body politic. SHORT: Now, Tyrone, I’d like to ask you about your involvement in the Moore’s Ford Memorial Committee. BROOKS: Yeah, the Moore’s Ford Bridge lynching case – I’m glad you brought that up as we close out, because this case is a live case today. On July 25th, 1946, two African American couples, poor sharecroppers, were captured and murdered by a mob of Klansmen in Walton County, Georgia – Monroe. It’s a sad saga in American and in Georgia’s history. It’s what we say it’s a stain on our history and a burden on our souls. But this occurred in 1946. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. was 17 years old in 1946. He was so outraged that he wrote letters to the Atlanta Journal Constitution and other media. His letters were published. He was 17 years old. As I come in the SCLC and grow up I discover that Dr. King still had this case on his agenda. And when we last saw Dr. King alive on March 21st, 1968 in Macon, Georgia at New Zion Baptist Church, Dr. King talked about this case and made a commitment to come to Monroe after he and Ralph Abernathy finished with the sanitation workers strike in Memphis. He couldn’t come but Abernathy and all of the great leaders, Hosea Williams, Joe Lowery, Jesse Jackson, Charles Steele, Ed DuBose, all of us had been there. Now here’s where we are now. In the year 2000, something told me to go talk to Governor Barnes about this case. I had been in Monroe and I had been in an interview with one of the eye witnesses to the lynching of Mr. Roy Jackson. Had a FBI agent in the room and got it recorded on video camera at the suggestion of Robert Howard. So I went into Roy’s office on that day for something and Roy asked me, he said, " ; Where have you been?” I said. " ; I' ; ve been over in Monroe, Georgia.” He said, " ; What have you been doing?” I said, " ; Well, Roy," ; I said, " ; We’re working on this Moore’s Ford Bridge lynching.” And he said, " ; You know when I was a law student at UGA our law professors would have discussions about that case.” And he said, " ; What do you think we ought to do now?” I said, " ; Well you’re the governor." ; I said, " ; Why don’t you order this case reopened?” He got up from his desk, went around to his computer, sent an email to Buddy Nix, who was heading the GBI. And the email read like this: Tyrone and I are sitting here talking about the Moore’s Ford Bridge lynching ; we think this case ought to be reopened. I’m ordering the case reopened right now and the full resources of the state are at your disposal. Buddy Nix got the email and he told me later, he said, " ; That was almost like a celebration in the office when they got it because they wanted to get back on this case.” Vernon Keenan heads the GBI now, and he’s working it and got his agents on it. But as a result of Governor Barnes ordering it reopened and us working on the feds through Congressman John Lewis and others, we’ve been able to get the U.S. Department of Justice to reopen it. So now there’s a federal/state task force working this case in Monroe, Walton County. We have a volunteer FBI agent who’s retired who drives from Birmingham, Alabama, over to work with us. He just volunteers his services. Because he worked on Michael Schwerner, James Chaney, Andrew Goodman case in Mississippi ; he worked on the 16th Street Baptist Church bombing case where the four little girls were killed, and he lives in Birmingham. His name is Bill Fleming. So he comes over to volunteer. But this is a live case because many of the suspects are still living. You see, the suspects were very young when they committed the crime in 1946. Today, they’re in their 80s, their 90s, and beyond. But I tell – I try to draw the parallel between what’s happening here and what’s happening with the International War Crimes Commission in rounding up old Nazis who committed their war crimes against Jews in 1943 in Poland, Germany, and other parts of Europe. The International War Crimes Commission is hunting down old Nazis today, right now. And they’re going to be tried, some of them have already been tried, in the Hague in the Netherlands because these crimes were crimes of murder and genocide and there is no statute of limitations on murder. And so we always say if these old Nazis can be rounded up around the world like the Paul Henss from Lawrenceville, Georgia two years ago and John Demjanjuk from Cleveland, Ohio, they can be deported back to Germany to stand trial. Yes, we have to do the same here in America. These old suspects, they may be up in age now but they were young then. And there’s no statute of limitation on murder. Because of the leadership of Roy Barnes, governor of Georgia 2000, we were able to set up a reward fund and that reward fund is now grown to $35,000. And we always say any citizen out there who wants to collect this reward, call the FBI, call the GBI or call the Georgia Association of Black Elected Officials or by going to our website at GABEO.org if you have information that can help us arrest and prosecute these suspects. Then you can collect the reward and remain anonymous. So this is a live case. This case was the catalyst to drive the Emmett Till bill into federal law. President George Bush signed the Emmett Till bill into law October 7th of last year and there’s $100 million appropriation attached to that bill so that more agents can be hired, more forensic scientists, prosecutors, lawyers, working these old cases across the South. They call it the Cold Case Squad. If you read Jerry Mitchell’s article that I gave you earlier from the Jackson, Mississippi Clarion Ledger you will see how in Mississippi they’re still working on many of those old cold cases. The Michael Schwerner, James Chaney, Andrew Goodman case is not dead. There are other suspects still living. Michael Schwerner, James Chaney, Andrew Goodman were killed 18 years after the Malcolms and the Dorseys were murdered here in Monroe, Georgia. So the Monroe, Georgia lynchings at the Moore’s Ford Bridge are one of our priorities today. And thank God the FBI and the GBI are on the scene, on the ground working to bring closure to this horrible massacre. SHORT: Tyrone, I’ve enjoyed this conversation. I could talk with you all day but I know you have – BROOKS: I don’t want to put you to sleep. SHORT:--time limitations. I would like to ask you one final question. How would you like to be remembered? BROOKS: Oh Lord. Whenever I leave this planet I hope that the historians and the people of this state and the nation will look back and say here’s a little old fellow, a little cotton picking peon peasant who was born in Washington, Georgia, grew up in Warrenton, who was fortunate enough to have great parents, great mentors, mentees, he had an opportunity to come into the Civil Rights Movement and survive it, wasn’t assassinated, stayed in good health, ended up in the Georgia House of Representatives and served 30 years and the only thing I want people to look back over me and say is, you know what? He tried to help the people to the best of his ability. That’s all. There is nothing outstanding about me that people would look at and say – kind of Dr. King. Dr. King said he didn’t want to be known for a Nobel Peace Prize or anything like that. All he wanted the people to say about him is I tried to help somebody. And really that’s all I want. The people to say he tried to make a difference. He tried to help the people who needed the help who couldn’t help themselves. That’s enough. SHORT: Well you’ve done that. BROOKS: I want to continue to do that as long as I live. SHORT: Good. Thank you so much. BROOKS: Thank you, Bob. Resources may be used under the guidelines described by the U.S. Copyright Office in Section 107, Title 17, United States Code (Fair use). Parties interested in production or commercial use of the resources should contact the Russell Library for a fee schedule. video 0 RBRL220ROGP-085.xml RBRL220ROGP-085.xml http://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL220ROGP/findingaid http://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL220ROGP-085/findingaid
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Interview with Tyrone Brooks, September 2, 2009
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Tyrone Brooks
Bob Short
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oral histories
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African Americans--History
African American politicians
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Civil rights
Civil rights demonstrations
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Tyrone L. Brooks was elected to the Georgia House of Representatives as a Democrat in 1980. He has sat on numerous committees, including Economic Development and Tourism, Governmental Affairs and Retirement, and Appropriations. Brooks has served as president of the Georgia Association of Black Elected Officials, and is a member of the Georgia Legislative Black Caucus. Brooks discusses his activities as a civil rights activist, his time in the legislature, and his work with the SCLC.
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2009-09-02
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Reflections on Georgia Politics Oral History Collection
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Georgia--History
Georgia--Politics and government
Politics and Public Policy
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The Reflections on Georgia Politics Oral History Collection consists of interviews with politically prominent Georgians conducted by Bob Short from 2006 to 2016. Interviewees include former governors, members of both the U.S. and Georgia Congresses, secretaries of state, lobbyists, journalists, lawyers, activists, and relatives of prominent politicians. Included with these oral histories are a few public programs recorded at Young Harris College in 2006-2007. Most interviews were recorded in the homes and offices of interviewees or in the Bob Short Oral History Studio at the University of Georgia. The conversations cover many topics at the intersection of politics and public life in modern Georgia, with a particular strength in gubernatorial contests, the Civil Rights movement, reapportionment, the development of Atlanta, the rise of the Republican party in Georgia, political journalism, and the interaction between religion and politics.<br /><br /><a href="http://georgiaoralhistory.libs.uga.edu/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=&range=&collection=9&type=&tags=OHMS&featured=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">View all OHMS indexed interviews in this collection here. </a>
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Georgia
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5.3 Interview with Lonnie King, September 28, 2009 RBRL220ROGP-086 RBRL220ROGP Reflections on Georgia Politics Oral History Collection ROGP 085 Interview with Lonnie King Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies, University of Georgia Lonnie King Bob Short oral history 1:|23(11)|36(6)|47(9)|62(7)|92(7)|106(12)|118(2)|127(13)|139(3)|148(13)|162(11)|173(10)|184(19)|196(7)|206(8)|237(5)|247(9)|257(15)|271(5)|285(10)|297(3)|307(1)|318(10)|331(6)|353(10)|372(7)|389(3)|399(10)|409(8)|419(13)|431(5)|441(5)|457(13)|468(7)|480(5)|498(5)|512(9)|531(16)|545(12)|557(4)|569(11)|582(1)|593(5)|613(8)|625(4)|650(10)|665(3)|680(10)|693(6)|715(6)|725(2)|736(14)|750(12)|778(2)|789(4)|806(3)|818(2)|829(14)|836(15)|846(2)|855(1)|868(2)|879(12)|891(12)|902(2)|915(7)|924(3)|937(1)|947(14)|959(6)|970(18)|982(8)|1001(2)|1013(6)|1024(15)|1038(7)|1055(13)|1066(11)|1080(9)|1092(8)|1108(10)|1123(9)|1137(13)|1147(9)|1158(8)|1167(12)|1179(1)|1192(8)|1205(14)|1219(7)|1238(6)|1248(6)|1274(5) 0 Kaltura video < ; iframe id=" ; kaltura_player" ; src=" ; https://cdnapisec.kaltura.com/p/1727411/sp/172741100/embedIframeJs/uiconf_id/26879422/partner_id/1727411?iframeembed=true& ; playerId=kaltura_player& ; entry_id=1_b0uwawcl& ; flashvars[localizationCode]=en& ; flashvars[leadWithHTML5]=true& ; flashvars[sideBarContainer.plugin]=true& ; flashvars[sideBarContainer.position]=left& ; flashvars[sideBarContainer.clickToClose]=true& ; flashvars[chapters.plugin]=true& ; flashvars[chapters.layout]=vertical& ; flashvars[chapters.thumbnailRotator]=false& ; flashvars[streamSelector.plugin]=true& ; flashvars[EmbedPlayer.SpinnerTarget]=videoHolder& ; flashvars[dualScreen.plugin]=true& ; & ; wid=1_hllkf69v" ; width=" ; 400" ; height=" ; 285" ; allowfullscreen webkitallowfullscreen mozAllowFullScreen frameborder=" ; 0" ; > ; < ; /iframe> ; English 31 Early life / Grandfather's influence Arlington, Georgia. King recalls his childhood in Arlington, Georgia, mentioning two experiences of racism that left a vivid impression on him, including first learning the meaning of the n-word. King describes the influence of his grandfather, an evangelist preacher and secret supporter of the NAACP, on the development of his character and beliefs. He briefly mentions the way in which white primaries excluded black people from voting during the Jim Crow era. Arlington, Georgia ; Eugene Talmadge ; Jim Crow laws ; John Hope Elementary School ; NAACP ; preacher ; racism ; revival ; violence ; white primary 17 419 Confronting racism while in the Navy I later on went into the Navy. King remembers the discrimination he faced in the Navy, including being assigned menial jobs like maintenance and cleaning and being refused a transfer to a better job. He remembers appealing to a white superior officer who advocated on his behalf to arrange the job transfer. King recalls wanting to return to Atlanta after his service so he could become involved in political activism. civil rights movement ; Navy ; political activism ; prejudice ; race ; racism 17 836 Involvement on the cusp of Civil Rights Movement So when I came back in '57, I played football and did very well on the football team and got somewhat of a following. King talks about attending Morehouse College, where he met Julian Bond and other key figures in the civil rights protests. He briefly talks about the historical importance of Morehouse College in shaping leaders in the civil rights movement, and credits a lot of that to Morehouse's long-term president, Dr. Benjamin Mays. King talks about receiving admonition and support from the presidents of the other black colleges in Atlanta, regarding the student protests he helped organize. He also mentions working with Julian Bond and Rosalyn Hope to draft " ; An Appeal for Human Rights," ; the first student petition of its kind widely published in the media. An Appeal for Human Rights ; Benjamin Mays ; Greensboro sit-in ; Greensboro, NC ; Howard University ; Julian Bond ; Mordecai Johnson ; Morehouse College ; petition ; Rosalyn Pope ; Spelman College 17 1459 Shaping the non-violent movement: formation of SNCC It was not difficult to recruit students, was it? King discusses growing the student participation as the movement gained traction. He describes students' reactions to the philosophy of non-violence, explains non-violence as a specific strategy, and situates their movement within the history of the suppression of slave revolts and black protests in the U.S. He highlights the role of young people as actors in creating change and fighting injustice. King describes how the initial idea behind the SNCC developed, and how the group was organized at Shaw University. He discusses the way television news coverage created a wider culture of support surrounding the student protest movement. broadcasting ; church ; class action lawsuit ; control ; Denmark Vasey ; Ebenezer Baptist Church ; honorific consumption ; involvement ; John Lewis ; Marion Barry ; mass participation ; mass support ; NAACP ; NBC news ; news coverage ; news media ; non-violence ; nonviolence ; protest ; Rap Brown ; Shaw University ; slave patrols ; Stokely Carmichael ; suppression ; television ; The Theory of the Leisure Class ; Thorstein Veblen ; white violence ; youth 17 2256 Desegregation of Rich's Department Store How closely did you work with Dr. King's SCLC organization? King relates the story of how Dr. Martin Luther King became involved in the SNCC-organized desegregation of Rich's Department Store in Atlanta. He describes some of the tensions between the student-led SNCC and the more traditional black advocay organizations. He also talks about the black power structure in Atlanta at that time, and explains why some black leaders were against the methods used by the SNCC. black leaderships ; black power structure ; coalition ; economic access ; Herschelle Sullivan ; JFK ; John F. Kennedy ; Magnolia Room ; privilege ; Rich's Department Store ; Richard Nixon ; William Hartsfield 17 2804 Mobilizing the African-American vote Let me read you this quote. King talks about the efforts of SNCC to register voters across the southern states. He describes the importance of the vote, and talks about low African-American voter turnout. King also traces the history of voter enfranchisement in the U.S., and speculates as to what the future will bring in terms of political gains. black vote ; voter registration ; voter suppression ; Voting Rights Act of 1965 17 3190 Desegregation of schools Let's get back to Atlanta for just a minute. King emphasizes the series of lawsuits filed by SNCC to integrate parks and recreation areas, courthouses, and other public facilities. He explains a bit of the history of the Supreme Court's broader interpretation of the 14th amendment in cases leading up to the repeal of the separate-but-equal doctrine in < ; i> ; Brown v. Board of Education< ; /i> ; . King talks about the importance of addressing current problems of education, and highlights the work that Teach for America does in schools. Brown v. Topeka Board of Education ; colonialism ; From Slavery to Freedom ; incarceration ; John Hope Frankling ; Plessy v. Ferguson ; prison pipeline ; Roger Taney ; Supreme Court ; Sweatt v. Texas ; Teach for America 17 3959 SNCC's internal split / Freedom Rides What role did SNCC play in some of Dr. King's programs? King compares SNCC's approach to that of Dr. King's, situating it within the wider ideological spectrum of non-violence versus black power. He mentions the decline of SNCC over time, due to the transitory nature of its student base. He recalls participating in Freedom Rides, which were efforts of activists to desegregate public transportation across the South. He briefly mentions the role of religion in the movement, as well as the degree of direct involvement of black pastors and churches. He also comments on how he and other activists were under FBI surveillance. baptist ; Black Power ; church ; church bombings ; FBI ; Freedom Riders ; Freedom Rides ; integration ; J. Edgard Hoover ; Malcom X ; nonviolence ; pastors ; religion ; surveillance ; transportation 17 http://www.georgiaencyclopedia.org/articles/history-archaeology/freedom-rides More information about Freedom Rides 4678 Collective leadership in Civil Rights Well, I think you'll agree that Dr. King was, without a doubt, the leader of the Civil Rights Movement. King contextualizes Dr. King's role within the broader Civil Rights Movement, by describing him as the 'leading voice' of the movement rather than its singular leader. King recognizes the collective efforts of other black leaders and organizations such as the NAACP and the Urban League, and reflects on the more recent representation of black voices in America. A. Phillip Randolph ; Dorothy Height ; representation 17 http://www.biography.com/people/dorothy-height-40743 Biography of Dorothy Height 4876 Civil Rights Movement: past and present Looking back, Lonnie, what do you think was the Movement's greatest triumph? King talks about the immediate effects of integration in opening public spaces for black people, but recognizes the continued challenges that key pieces of legislation, such as the Voting Rights Act, face in being renewed. King reflects on the engagement of young people in activism, in which he notes a discontinuity of political mentorship to younger generations. He discusses how conservative court appointments affect the judgement and application of the law in current civil rights cases. King mentions the need to address the issues of improving education and building black leadership in the African-American community. appeal ; appellate court ; conservatism ; court bias ; prejudice ; republican ; reverse discrimination ; summary judgement ; trial court 17 5405 Career and family Well, what has life been like for Lonnie King after your civil rights career, or are you still a civil rights activist? King talks about his various professions in management, real estate development, and teaching. He mentions his family, including the accomplishments of his grandchildren. activism ; federal government ; Georgia State University ; Harvard University ; professorship ; real estate ; teaching 17 BOB SHORT: I’m Bob Short and this is Reflections on Georgia Politics sponsored by the Duckworth Library at Young Harris College and the Russell Library at the University of Georgia. Our guest is Lonnie King, one of the founders of the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee and the leading expert in the history of the Civil Rights Movement particularly in Georgia. Lonnie, we’re delighted to have you. LONNIE KING: My pleasure being here, Bob. SHORT: Arlington, Georgia. KING: Yes. SHORT: Deep in south Georgia. KING: Deep, deep south Georgia. SHORT: Ruled by Jim Crow laws in a society where racial discrimination was commonplace. What was it like growing up there? KING: Well, I lived there from the time I was born until I was 8, and even though I was very young, I understood that the system required you, if you were black or negro or nigger, that you get off the sidewalk or you conform to the culture of that time which was that you were a second class citizen at best. SHORT: Give us some of your experiences growing up there as a youngster. KING: Well, when I was about--I must’ve been about 6 I guess or 7, in that neighborhood, Eugene Talmadge was running for governor one of his last times I think or next to last time, and he used a crop duster. I didn’t know what that was at the time ; I just knew it was a plane, but it was a crop duster. And the crop duster was dropping leaflets all over Arlington and I guess in some other places too. And I happened to pick up a leaflet and I took it home to my granddaddy, who was a preacher, Reverend Joseph Smith. And as I read it (because they taught me how to read before I went to school), it was “nigger this” and “nigger this” and “nigger that”, “keep the niggers in their place.” You name it. And so I asked Granddad, I said, “What is a nigger?” because I didn’t know what a nigger was. I certainly didn’t know I was one. And so he tried to explain to me something about Talmadge. And, at the same time, my granddaddy and my grandmother both were kind of like I guess you would say secret supporters of the NAACP. And when I say secret, to say that you were a black person and that you were involved with the NAACP in any way in the South at that time was almost like a death thing because the southern politicians who were in charge always saw the NAACP, especially with its avowed mission of ending lynching and what have you, as being anathema to what they had in mind, which was to keep the races separate and also keep whites in power and dominant. My granddaddy said to me that he was recruiting memberships for the NAACP. I think they were 50 cents apiece at that time for the membership. And he said that, “One day, son, this organization is going to get us out of slavery.” He said, “We are still in slavery. The only difference is that we can go home at night, but everything else is about the same or there are no rights that you have that white man is bound to respect, including the smallest white child.” Now my granddaddy was, I guess they called him an evangelist in the sense that he went around all over north Alabama and that part of Georgia holding revivals. And I went with him sometimes. He was a very eloquent and he was a note singer. And do you know what a note singer is? SHORT: No. KING: Okay. A note singer is someone who sings a cappella. They raise these hymns and the crowd joins in and so forth, so forth and so on. But he was my inspiration I guess at that young age. It reminds me somewhat, as I reflect on it now, Bob, of John Locke’s admonition back in the 17th century when he said that, “A child is born with a blank slate, and it’s what you put on that child’s slate during those first six years of his or her life,” – well, he said “his life” – “is going to have a lot to do with how that child ends up in life.” And I think I had on my slate before I was 8, a kind of orientation from my granddaddy that served me well when it was time to make a change here in 1960. SHORT: Your granddaddy couldn’t vote? KING: No. SHORT: Couldn’t vote. KING: There was no such thing. SHORT: White primary? KING: Yes. SHORT: Had no voice at all in government. KING: No. SHORT: Even local government. KING: No. SHORT: When did you first realize that you wanted to become part of what was to be a long struggle for civil rights? KING: Well, I left – well, let me tell you a little, a little incident that still sticks in my mind. When I was about 13 years of age, Bob, I was learning how to play table tennis at John Hope Elementary School up on Boulevard. SHORT: You lived in Atlanta at that time? KING: I lived in Atlanta by that time. I had moved here from the time I was 9. My granddaddy died and so I came to stay with my mother then. Well, I went by – we would go by this White Gas Fill. Now let me give you a little history. Bob Woodruff, who headed The Coca-Cola Company, also headed Trust Company and the White Motor Company at the same time. And the White Gas Fill was owned by the White Motor Company and they used to park their trucks out there. But it was right behind John Hope School. So one day I was walking through there and the caretaker – it was about 6:00 maybe, and the caretaker was there – a white guy, big guy. And his dog – they had a dog that day – and the dog came out and tried to bite me and so I kicked the dog to keep him from biting me. Well, the big guy ran out and said, “Nigger, what you doing? What are you doing kicking at my dog? Don’t you move!” And so, of course, I didn’t move. He came over and slapped me down for kicking at his dog. Well, the statute of limitations has now passed so I’m gonna tell you I came back that night and I broke all the windows in that warehouse. All of them. So that was really my first violent touch with racism in Atlanta. I mean, I saw it on the buses and all that kind of stuff but, I mean, to be hit by someone when you hadn’t done anything but try to protect yourself was really outrageous. I later on went into the Navy and, while I was in the Navy, that’s when I think I really grew up because when I went into the Navy, I selected as the educational petty officer for my company, and my job was to try to get all of our recruits through boot camp from in terms of passing those tests. So when I finished with my 80-something guys, they put me in charge of about 30 people who were going to a ship called the U.S.S. Oriskany (CVA-34) that had just been I guess you would say sunk down outside of Pensacola to become a natural reef. Well, when I got there, I saluted the officer of the day and handed him the 30 personnel folders and they put us in something called the X-1 Division (that’s the Orientation Division) for two weeks while they assess what job they’re gonna give you. At the end of two weeks, they gave me and the guy with the lowest GCT (which is intelligence score) the Deck Force. We had to go out and paint the ship. All the rest of the guys – I was the only black person there ; the other, the other 29 guys were all white – so they put me and the guy with the lowest GCT in the Deck Force and my job was to chip the paint. Well, that wasn’t good enough. Sure enough after about maybe a month, I was then transferred to the head, to clean the head. Now the head is the restroom. Now mind, just imagine cleaning the restroom for 200 men. So it was a very depressing thing to say the least, but I went in there and I decided that I would remember something that Dr. Mays once told me when I was a freshman at Morehouse (because I only went there for one year before I went to the Navy and then I came back). Dr. Mays once said that, “If it’s your fate in life to be a ditch digger or whatever, do it like no one else other than God. Do that job the best that you can.” And so I went in here and I painted up the place, got it spick-and-span, shined all the brass, and I turned that S-job into kind of like a lark. So I could then go out and, after I’d take my half an hour cleaning up in the morning and after cleaning up in the afternoon, and read. I want you to know, Bob, that after about four or five months of this, a third class petty officer – white guy – put in a billet, put in a chit, to take my job. In other words, I had taken a job that nobody wanted, painted it up, turned it around, and when I got it to the point where it was a job where you only had to work about an hour a day-- SHORT: Somebody took it. KING: That’s right. So that was a big lesson for me. So they sent me back to the Deck Force, and so that time I said, “Let me get outta here.” And so I started applying for different billets that came up, different jobs that came up. So I applied for the Dental Technician School to go to San Diego. Well, before I got the answer on going to Dental Technician School, I saw an ad in The Plan of the Day (that’s the bulletin) for a disbursing clerk/striker. That’s someone who can go down as a trainee. And so I went down there and applied for the job and Ensign J.C. Claren, who was in charge, said that, “We don’t want you down here.” And I said, “Why?” He says, “Well, you’re black” – no, “You’re negro and we’re all white down here and we – we don’t want any negroes in here.” So I went to see the chaplain of this--of the ship – and told him about it and he said, “Oh, they didn’t say that, did they?” I said, “Yes, they did.” So then he just tried to counsel me about the conditions and what have you and, “You have to accept certain things.” So I was burning, so I then went to my division officer in the Deck Force. He was a lieutenant from – lieutenant JG from – Louisiana named Horne. I told him what happened. He said, “Come with me.” He got me up and took us down to see Ensign J.C. Claren, the guy who told me that he didn’t want us down there – and he said, “Mr. King,” he gave me the handle. “Mr. King tells me that you don’t want him down here. Let me hear you tell me that.” And he said, “Well, it’s really not me, but it’s these guys. I don’t think it’ll work down here.” So Lieutenant JG Horne said to him, “If you don’t have his name in The Plan of the Day tomorrow that he’s assigned to your office, I’m gonna write the Chief of Naval Operations and find out how you got your commission.” My name was in The Plan of the Day the next day. I tell you that story because even though I was kicked to the ground by the man when I was 13 who was white, it was a white man who went down and told another white man, “If you don’t give this man what he’s entitled to, I’m gonna get your commission.” So that – so when that – when those kind of things happen to you, you begin to say, “You know, democracy is like mercury. It’s very slippery, but you do have people regardless of race who are – who believe in trying to make things happen in a democratic way.” And so I went down there and I did well. I became a – I – I became an E-5 inside of about 18 months. I did very well. I came out as an E-5 after after three years, kind of on the fast track. But I got – I had people to treat me badly down there but, finally, after a while, they came around. I would not stay in. I said, “No, I don’t want to stay in.” I wanted to come back. And I told a friend of mine on the – we were in what you would call the front of the ship (we call it the forecastle) in Hong Kong, China, in 1956. And he was getting out, going back to San Francisco to work for Pacific Bell. I said, “Well, I’m going back to Atlanta.” And I said to him – his name was Everett Renda – I said, “Everett, you know, one day we’re gonna get a chance to get this yoke off our back as black people, or as negroes, and I want to be back in Atlanta and be and play a role in that.” Now that happened in ‘56. So when I came back in ‘57, I played football and did very well on the football team and got somewhat of a following. And when the Movement began up in Greensboro on February 1st, on the 2nd of February, I was in the – I was in the drug store organizing saying, “We have to do it here.” And I talked to my friend, Joseph Pierce, and Julian Bond whom I had met, and the three of us went all around and began to organize. And we pulled together thousands of people to join this movement in Atlanta (and we’ll talk about it in more detail as we go on) but that’s the foundation. My granddaddy, some incidents that happened in my life before I got to Morehouse and some after I got to Morehouse, and in the Navy I think played a major role in inculcating in me this desire to try to change the system. You see, when I took civics in high school, I actually believed it when I heard them say that, “We hold these truths to be self-evident,” etc. And when you believe in that, then you’re gonna try to see what you can do to make that a reality. And I’m happy to know that we – a lot of us – thought the same way and we did it without bullets. We did it without dynamite. We did it with an idea and our bodies and making the way and making a witness for the cause. And I think had we done a – I think had it been a violent revolution, we’d still be segregated because we didn’t have guns so we had to appeal to the moral conscience of people who were not black, who were willing to say, “There’s something wrong with this picture.” SHORT: Uh-huh. Let’s talk for a minute about Morehouse. KING: Okay. SHORT: Many, many Civil Rights leaders came from Morehouse. KING: Yeah. SHORT: Dr. King, you, Julian Bond. KING: Charles Black. SHORT: Charles Black, Senator Johnson (Leroy Johnson). KING: Yes, yes. SHORT: Hamilton Holmes. KING: Yes, yes. SHORT: What made Morehouse such a key element in the Civil Rights Movement? KING: It has to have – okay. You had a man named Mordecai Johnson who graduated from Morehouse in about 1910, 1911. He became the first black President of Howard University. A great orator ; could talk for two or three hours, like Castro. Mordecai Johnson recruited Dr. Mays to come to Morehouse. Now Mordecai was the President of Howard. Mays was his Dean of Religion. So he got Mays to come to Morehouse. Mays, in my view, became probably the greatest schoolmaster of all times in the sense that he carried himself on such a high plane intellectually, the way he dressed, his mannerisms, until people wanted to imitate him. And Mays was always preaching about the fact that you have a mission if you’re a Morehouse man. If you are lucky enough to get into these seats, that means that you are part of a group of people who can lead this nation. And the other part of that speech that he made that I mentioned earlier was that, “If it’s your thought to be a doctor, be the very best doctor.” Lawyer--he went on down the line and then, of course, he mentioned the thing about the garbage collector and what have you. But his thing was you can do it as well as anyone else. And in order to get into Morehouse (and I hope I don’t get into too much trouble here) but some of your brightest young, black men were sent to Morehouse by people from all over the country because Mays was there. And, for 27 years, he was a beacon that people looked up to and wanted to follow in many of the things that he preached. SHORT: Julian Bond told me this story. He said that within days of the first sit-in in Greensboro, you came to him and talked him into beginning a movement in Atlanta. KING: Yeah, that’s true, but it wasn’t days ; it was actually the next day. I had met Julian when I came back from the war in 1957 and, at that time when you went to Morehouse, you had to stand in line to register for hours. Like all day long. And so, therefore, if you were standing next to somebody that you did not know, after eight hours or so of standing there, you’re gonna get to know that person. Right? So Julian and I happened to be standing next to one another in ‘57 when I came back. And I learned a lot about him. I learned that he had been a Time magazine apprentice when he was in high school. That he wrote well or that he was a writer. His daddy was Dean of Education at AU. And I think he might’ve been born – I think he was born in Fort Valley maybe, but he lived a lot in Philadelphia. So when we got ready to put the movement together, I said, “We need to have somebody who writes well.” And so I went to Julian because I knew he could write. And I went to Joe because Joe’s an organizer, Joe Pierce. SHORT: Uh-huh. KING: So the three of us actually pulled this thing together. Now the college president though, I learned belatedly, had a tremendous network that we weren’t aware of. And so when they heard that we were doing all this stuff, they called us in to have a summit conference on it. And, at that point, they told us about the fact that they had a responsibility as a trustee for these children and that we were running the risk of getting everybody hurt or maybe even killed, some of them. And so they all were speaking to us like older parents but when they went Clement was first, Mays was second, then Manley ; they were kind of going in order of seniority I guess. So when they got to Dr. Harry V. Richardson, who is the head – who headed – the Interdenominational Theological Seminary (ITC) – Center, I’m sorry – he looked at the other preacher, the other preachers and people there, and he said, “I think the students are right.” He broke ranks with the other presidents. I mean, it was shocking to see him do that because he was a part of the six, the big six. And he went on to give a lecture on – on the evils of segregation and how we needed to do something about it and he’s gonna back us. The next person to speak was Dr. Frank Cunningham from Morris Brown, a philosopher. He gave a eloquent speech backing Harry Richardson. So, by this time, you have four presidents who were basically saying, “Go back to class,” and two who are saying, “Well, we’re with you.” So we had them split because the common denominator was that everyone in the room was a negro. And, therefore, what we were trying to do, if we were successful, would benefit everybody in the room. So Mays – Clement, a clever man – said, “Well, if you’re gonna do it, why don’t you write up a petition as to why you want to do this?” And so I know he had in mind that if we sat down and wrote, then that was gonna get us to stop. And so we humored them. We said, “Okay, we’ll do it.” And so I assigned Rosalyn Pope from Spelman – she’s the President of Spelman’s Student Government Association – and Julian Bond, I believe Morris Dillard I think I put in and Albert Benson, and asked them to draft this document. They came up with something called “An Appeal for Human Rights.” That document – Dr. Clement raised $12,000 from someplace and paid for it ; it cost about $4,000 to be in all of the newspapers – and that document was read into the Congressional Record. It was reprinted completely free by the New York Times. And it’s still one of the – I think it’s probably the only – document of its kind that the students wrote that’s still around. But in that document, we basically said that, “We cannot continue to sit passively by and have our rights meted out to us one at a time.” And then we enumerated all the things that were wrong in Atlanta and, therefore, in the South, and that we were gonna use nonviolent means to change this. And that document resonated in the black community and in the white community, but in the conservative white community – on the racist white community – the Governor was Ernest Vandiver (who, by the way, if I may just say something parenthetically, when he died here a few months ago – a few years – a few months ago, I guess, I didn’t know who they were talking about when it came out ; I mean, it was such a glowing tribute to this gentleman). But, anyway, when the “Appeal” appeared (and you can check the record and the newspapers), Vandiver’s comment was that, “This couldn’t have been done by any college student in Georgia. It had to have been written in Moscow.” In other words, he just ignored the fact that it was done by black students. Not any college student, which was – was really a sad commentary on the quality of education, in his mind, that we were offering in this school, in the school system. But, anyway, we – we moved on. That was done on the 9th of March, 1960. And then on the 15th of March, we sat-in in about 11 different places and started our movement. And before it was over, we had thousands of students with us, and we pulled off the big boycott on Rich’s. And the rest is history. SHORT: It was not difficult to recruit students, was it? KING: Pardon me now? SHORT: It was not difficult to get students? KING: Yeah, it was in a way. Early on, it was difficult because you were talking about an untried, untested something. But after this, I think students saw that other students in the rest of the country were beginning to – and the rest of the South were beginning to – join in, I think it was a matter of keeping up with the Joneses. SHORT: Uh-huh. KING: People like to do that. I think Thorstein Veblen in his book, The Theory of the Leisure Class, called it “honorific consumption.” People like to keep up with other people. So when we got the movement going, I think people felt that they ought to join it. But now all the students didn’t join now, but most of them did. Most of them did. SHORT: And you had pledged nonviolence? KING: Yes. SHORT: Was that difficult with these young students? Did they want to fight or did they want to-- KING: We had some students – some who are prominent in Atlanta right now – who refused to participate because they said that they could not be nonviolent. We had to make sure that we had students who were willing to take the blows if necessary in order to do this. And, you know, that’s very – it’s kind of like brainwashing in a way. You’ve got to brainwash somebody to not follow their normal instincts. If somebody hits you, you know, you’re gonna try to protect yourself. But what was said to people in Atlanta is this. We said, “We’re not suggesting that you adopt nonviolence as your way of life per se, but at least in the short term adopt it as a strategy because we believe that the strategy can work. It worked in India. And we think that it can work here.” We’ve got to give credit though to Jim Lawson out of Nashville and Martin King for pushing this idea, but we were pretty much nonviolent from the day those four boys sat down. And you don’t have any pictures of any students with any guns, any knives, any billy clubs trying to beat up anybody. All we were asking for – and all of us were well-dressed – and we went in to say, “We want the opportunity to have the chance to sit down and eat a hamburger.” SHORT: Did you anticipate violence on the part of the white people? KING: Yeah. Oh, yeah. SHORT: You did? KING: Yeah, because – because, Bob, if you go back and look at the history, there were several hundred slave revolts in this country. Not one was successful. Not one. And the reason that they were not successful was because of something called the “slave patrol.” See, soon after blacks became the labor force, the cheap labor force, in this country, on the southern plantations especially, you had to have some kind of law and order force to keep the system going. And so they literally hired men – white men – as slave patrols and they were all over the South. Now the slave patrols were succeeded by the Klan who, in turn, were succeeded by some white policemen, like Bull Connor. So there is a logical, you know, escalation or continuation of this idea of control of the black folks who might revolt. So we expected violence because every last one of those slave revolts ended up in violence and people being killed. You can go back to the 1700s. People tried to get out and they were killed. Denmark Vesey in Charleston, South Carolina, in about 1823-24 led what some consider to be the largest revolt ever and, of course, the folks that he was trying to free, some of them told about the possible insurrection so they arrested about 50 people and they executed most of them. And I can go on and on and on where we have these situations where every time someone tried to break out of the mold, they got shot, they got lynched, they got run out of town, something. In fact, it was generous and you were lucky if you got run out of town. Most of the time you got shot. Like Emmett Till. So, yes, we expected some violence. But, Bob, let me say this to you. It’s very difficult for you, as a white man, to understand what was happening at that time from my perspective, but what I saw is that we will never get free unless we create a critical mass of people who are yearning and saying the same thing at the same time. And, at the same time, we wanted to open up our arms to people who didn’t look like us, who wanted to help us make that happen. And once we got that critical mass together, then it was a question of direction for that mass. And it worked out. But none of us expected to live this long, but there is one thing I think that was a common denominator for most of us and that was simply this: this was an idea that was so powerful until you’re willing to give your life for it. And once you arrive at that conclusion about any idea in your mind, you’re a dangerous person because if somebody cannot threaten you with extension – extinction – or kill you, you then realize that you become somewhat free and that you can move on. And you’ll take chances that people ordinarily wouldn’t take. But how – why could we not do that? The NAACP for – by that time, by 1960 – had been around for 61 years roughly and they had done a tremendous job of trying to end lynching, but they never could get the lynching ended but they won a lot of court cases. But remember what we said in that appeal. Our rights were being meted out one at a time. So it’s buses today. It’s schools tomorrow. You know? On down the line. It would have taken a hundred years to have gone through all of those rights through the courts. Plus, the courts are political, as you can see over the last 15 – 50 years, you know? People started getting more conservative people on the court to try to change the laws or water them down. But the NAACP, they pioneered this idea of class action where you can get one person that you represent that represents a class and bring a lawsuit. Well, by 1960, the class wanted to speak for itself and so, therefore, the NAACP was caught off guard and, therefore, they were on the wrong page of these young people. But, you see, we were in a war. We’d been in a war ever since 1619. And wars are won – are fought and won – by young people. Bob, people like you and me, we’re the – we’ve become the generals. But it’s the young people who go out there and face the wolves, who face Afghanistan, who face Iraq. And we were the young folks who were facing the Afghanistans of that time. And we were – we are – lucky enough to be living today, some of us, to be able to talk about what happened during that time. SHORT: Uh-huh. So you went up to Raleigh-- KING: Oh, yeah. SHORT:--and formed SNCC. KING: Yeah. Well, let me tell you about that. You have all kinds of revisionisms going on about what happened back in the Civil Rights Movement, but one of the things that is not well known is the fact that I’m a member of the Ebenezer Baptist Church. I joined it in 1945 when I came here. Daddy King, M. L. King, Jr.’s father, baptized me, and I was a very – I was active in that church. So when we got to a certain point and we looked around and I saw, Bob, that – that the anti-trespass laws were passed in Virginia first and, within a matter of two or three weeks, they were passed in Maryland, North Carolina, South Carolina – all over the South. And so I told the students that with my committee, I said, “We need to organize South-wide.” I said, “Let me see can I call M.L.” (I called him M.L. because I knew him well.) “And see if we can get him to call a meeting for us.” So I took my – so Julian Bond, Marian Wright and I went to see him down on Auburn Avenue, and we went in there to argue for SNCC being formed. Not SNCC, but us to be organized as a unit. My argument was that I have never read in history of any unorganized group of folks whipping an organized group of people. If you’re gonna battle the races, you’re gonna have to organize to battle them. I mean, you can’t just hope that somehow God’s gonna shine on you and come and fight the battle for you. You have to fight it – fight it yourself – but you need to be organized. He agreed with that and instructed Ella Baker who was at the time his acting executive to call a meeting, and so she called her alma mater, Shaw, and got the meeting set up for there. So Martin King really was the person who called us all together at that meeting. And from that meeting, of course, was founded the shock troops all over the South, the Student Non-Violent Coordinating Committee. They didn’t have that many people, but they had a lot of courageous people. And if you have a lot of courageous people, you then – we were then able to utilize the media. Now, Bob, I am convinced that if the media had not come of age by 1960, all of us would probably have been killed. We were – nobody--I don’t care how virulent a racist, even Bull Connor (well, maybe not Bull Connor), but most of the virulent, virulent racists would not want to be seen on NBC News beating up on a kid who’s just trying to get a hamburger, or have a dog bite him. They just did not want to do that. Now if the cameras had not been there though, trust me, it would’ve happened. But, you know, it’s almost like a man beating his wife, you know. He doesn’t want the wife to tell it, but if – but if the neighbors hear it, he’s somewhat embarrassed by that. “Why are you beating your wife?” SHORT: Yeah. KING: You know? “Why’re you beating up these kids?” And all I want to do is have a lunch, have a hamburger. So we organized and we put on blue jeans and went to southwest Georgia, Mississippi, Alabama where the real, real deep South is and began to change the political structure down there. Now the story of how America changed on race relations is really more embedded in the history of SNCC than it is in any other organization other than the NAACP. SHORT: Did you realize at the time that bringing students into the Movement would go as far as it did? KING: No. I realized that bringing students into the Movement would maybe get us the benefits that we were looking for initially, which was basically public accommodations. I did not know, I did not have enough foresight to know, that it was gonna be the catalyst for the Voting Rights Act and for the – well, I thought that we’d get the Civil Rights bill but not the Voting Rights Act. All that came about as kind of like an offshoot of the whole thing. SHORT: So after the Voting Rights Act, SNCC – let’s tell folks what SNCC is. KING: Okay. SNCC was the Student Non-Violent Coordinating Committee, formed over Easter weekend in 1960 at Shaw University. The first chairperson was Marion Barry, who ended up being the Mayor of Washington, DC. Next was John Lewis. After John Lewis, I believe it – I think it was – no, next was Chuck McDew, I think, out of Minnesota, and then John Lewis and then later on Stokely Carmichael and then Rap Brown. So that’s kind of the lineage there in terms of the leadership. We were people who put on overalls to go into the cotton fields to try to register people to vote. It was – it was a tough time, a tough time to go down there and do that. I did not personally do any of that, but I have a lot of friends who did it. SHORT: Good. Well, now, let’s talk a little bit about Dr. King. He was very supportive-- KING: Oh, yeah. SHORT:--of the students. KING: Uh-huh. SHORT: And I think that he, as you said, he was instigator of your organization. How closely did you work with Dr. King’s SCLC organization? KING: Actually, it was kind of an intermittent relationship. You know, I got him involved in the SNCC situation. And then the students went home for the summer from the AU Center in 1960. So I had a core of people here planning for the fall, and so what we planned on was to put the issue of race on the minds of the people running for president. It was Kennedy and Nixon. So what we did was that we focused on Rich’s Department Store here (which became Macy’s) and we wanted to do it on the 19th of October, 1960. SHORT: Magnolia Room. KING: Magnolia – well, more than just that. It was all of the Rich’s places. Well, I recommended to our committee that we try to get Martin King, Jr. to go to jail with us because that would guarantee international publicity for us. And I also said that, “I want to recommend that we send Richard Nixon and John Kennedy a telegram asking them to take a stand on the issue of race,” because here’s what was happening. They were having the presidential election – the presidential debates – and if you had been from Mars, you wouldn’t have known any black folks were in this country and you certainly would not have known that thousands and thousands of young black kids, and some white kids too, were raising heck all over the South, from Maryland all the way over to Texas. So when I met with King in – in August of 1960, I told him my plan. He agreed to do it. Well, the night before we were going down there, I had her – I asked Herschelle Sullivan, who was my Co-Chairman (that’s like a vice chairman), to call him. Of course, she didn’t know him ; she had just come back from Europe. But I said, “Well, just tell him that I asked you to call him and he’ll talk to you.” So she called him and told him that she wanted – she was calling for me and that she wanted him to come to the bridge tomorrow. Well, she didn’t even get a chance to get that far. He said, “Well, I’ve decided that I can’t come.” So she came back and she said, “Lonnie, he said that, that he can’t come.” I said, “Herschelle, talk to the students. Let me go talk to him.” So I called him back and I said, “M.L., Herschelle tells me that you can’t come.” And he says, “Well, Lonnie, I’m on probation for having – for taking – Lillian (Lillian Smith) to the airport. And they arrested me.” And – and he said, he said, “My advisors are telling me that I ought not to risk this because they’re gonna revoke my--” what is it that they give you? They put you on probation, I guess. So they were all on the phone. You know, we had party lines at that time. Folks today don’t know what party lines were, but they had these – they had all these different extensions. So we had Wyatt Tee Walker on the phone ; you had A. D. King, his brother, on the phone ; his dad on the phone all ranting and raving at me that I’m gonna get him in trouble. But I refused to talk to them because I had known him since ‘45. So we had this conversation. Now just imagine what – what’s it like, Bob, to have a conversation with four or five folks on the phone, but you’re only talking to one person ; you’re ignoring the rest of them, which was what was happening. So we went through this thing and so I heard all the reasons why, and I said, “Well, M.L., let me say something to you. You can’t lead from the back. You gotta lead from the front.” Now I’m gonna tell you why I did that. One of the famous sermons that his daddy used to make every year or two was that. The title was " ; You Can’t Lead from the Back.” So I hit him with his own sermon, although I wasn’t talking to him but he heard me. So when I said that, he said, “L.C.,” I was called L.C., Lonnie Cecil King, he said, “What time do you want me to be at Rich’s?” I said, “At 10:00 in the morning.” He said, “I’ll be there. When he came the next morning, of course, we all got there at 10:00 and four of us got arrested and went to jail, and the rest is history. John Kennedy won the presidency because what happened is that the black community all over America switched from Nixon, because Nixon was viewed at that time, he wasn’t viewed as a bad guy in the black community. He had been the head of the President’s Committee on Fair Employment. And even though that might’ve been a token thing, it was the only straw in the game. And so Nixon did not have a negative view in the black community at that time, and he probably would’ve won that election were it not for King having gone to jail and Kennedy, Kennedy’s brother and others got involved to try to get him out. Every black community in America changed – switched from – Nixon to Kennedy except Atlanta. How about that? Atlanta black vote still went for Nixon. SHORT: Let’s talk about that for a minute. I mean, I can remember when a lot of the elder statesmen – black elder statesmen – in Atlanta were Republicans. KING: That’s true. SHORT: A lot of them. KING: Yes. SHORT: Because of Lincoln. KING: Well, because of Lincoln and also because of Talmadge and others who were – who were in the Democratic white primary. We were not welcome in the Democratic Party and so, if you’re not welcome, you don’t go over there. But what you had – I’ve got to say this at some point if we don’t get to it later on – is that we had a task here in Atlanta that maybe very few student leaders had the same problem in other places. We had to not only fight the white power structure ; we also had to fight the black power structure too. Because Atlanta had put together a coalition under Hartsfield where the so-called “good white people” from Buckhead merged – merged with the negro leaders from the south side and they formed this coalition that kept Hartsfield in office for 24 years. And from that coalition, a lot of the black leaders or negro leaders were able to call the mayor and get their children out of jail and get a job every so often, what have you, so they had access. When you challenge the system head on the way we did, that made these folks over here who had access who were negroes a little nervous. “Am I gonna lose my access? This boy is crazy. He’s gonna get us all killed. And certainly I’m gonna lose my access.” Well, when you look at it, we had to battle those two different forces at the same time. It was almost like going into a battle with one hand tied behind you. But the one thing that made us win that battle, it wasn’t the black leaders ; it was the $5 a day in carfare people who were riding those buses. We were able to call this boycott on Rich’s and we were able to get people to send us their credit cards. I asked for – I asked the young – I asked the people to send me their credit cards, Bob, to Rich’s department store, and do you know 300 and something people sent me their credit card? Would you send your credit card to a college kid? SHORT: I have. KING: Your – it was – but it was your son, right? SHORT: That’s right. KING: That’s different. But to one you didn’t know? SHORT: No, it’d be-- KING: You – I mean, you didn’t know his mom or his dad, anybody. SHORT: Yeah. KING: But they sent me their credit cards. That told me how deeply we had reached this community. So if they’re sending you their credit card, you can make this happen. We put the credit cards at Citizens Trust Bank. We sent them back after the boycott was over, but the bottom line is that it was symbolic. And the leaders – the negro leaders at the time – were not leaders. There was an article – there was a cartoon in the – in the New York Times in 1960 in the spring, and that cartoon was one which depicted the students out front – black students out front – parading, boycotting, you name it. Behind them were – were these negro leaders, the NAACP, the Urban League. And the caption was – the kids are running, other folks are behind them – the caption was, “Wait for me! We’re your leaders.” [Both chuckling] Now that’s a-- SHORT: Let – let me read you this quote. KING: Yeah. SHORT: Let me read you this quote from former President Jimmy Carter who told author Mary King this. “If you wanted to scare white people in southwest Georgia, Martin Luther King and the Southern Christian Leadership Conference wouldn’t do it. You only had to say one word: SNCC.” KING: That’s right. SHORT: Did you realize that you were that powerful in the state? KING: Well, we did not realize it but, at the same time, we also knew that the one thing that the white power structure in the South was afraid of was this burgeoning negro vote. And, Bob, we still have not, even 50 years later, capitalized the way we should have on the vote. Georgia, to a great extent, is a red state today not because of virulent racism, but because of nonfeasance on the part of blacks who now have the chance to vote but who are not registering. We still have about 4 to 500,000 African-Americans in this state who are eligible to vote and will not register for whatever those reasons are. Now we did get 100,000 to register this past summer to help Obama. But you still have a lot of them who are not registered. If we were to register in the proportions that we should, this would be a blue state. And a lot of other states in the South would also be blue states. So we still have this lingering legacy of non-participation on the part of – of our people. And, Bob, you could spend five or six lifetimes trying to overcome this problem. It will eventually be overcome, but I recognize it as a shortfall in the Movement. You open the door but folks don’t go through the door. And, as a result, the people who were opposed to your coming through the door in the first place have now taken over, solidified. SHORT: But you didn’t meet the same resistance in Georgia that you did in some other southern states (Alabama, Mississippi) in registering voters, did you? KING: Yeah, you had some serious problems in registering voters outside of Atlanta. Yeah, in those smaller towns, you did have some problems with registering voters there. You mean recently or back during the ‘60s? SHORT: Back during the ‘60s. KING: Yeah, you had some problems outside of Atlanta. Yeah. In fact, Atlanta – Georgia – Georgia has several counties that had been identified in the 1964 – ‘65, I should I say – Voting Rights Act where they were problem counties that are still – they still have to get pre-clearance. And those counties that have to get pre-clearance are those counties that were problem counties in 1964. SHORT: Uh-huh. KING: Yeah. SHORT: Lyndon Johnson once said that the most effective tool that African-Americans could have in this country would be the right to vote. KING: There’s no question about that. You see, if – if it were – if the right to vote was something that was not that good a thing, then why do people deny, want to deny you? See, when the country was first started, Bob, as you well know, only white men, landed gentry – could vote. And they had property. You know, you had – you also had to have property. Well, white men though in with Andrew Johnson – Jackson – were able to get the right to vote without all these fights in, you know, 1820, 1828. So when you look at this thing, you know, and then black men got the right in – in 1866-67 and women got it in 1920, but it’s been meted out. It’s been a little bit at a time. But Johnson is right. If people voted, you’d have a different kind of system here. But this is a young democracy – or should I say this is a democracy that is still young. And I think that its best days are probably ahead as opposed to behind it. Now America’s going through a transition right now. Obama has raised the curve worldwide and you’re going to see, in my opinion, more people like Obama who are going to be running for office in countries that are predominantly white. You’re gonna see people who are white all over the world taking a different view at America, you see, because three-fourths of the people in this country are not white and, therefore – or should I say in the world are not white – and, therefore, you’ll have to take that into account with all this interdependence that we have. You see, we are so interdependent today until if you sneeze here, man, someone’s gonna get a little sniffle someplace else because of all this inter – this interdependence. But you know what though? With all the foibles that I have seen here, with all the problems that I’ve seen, I’ve been all over the world and I tell you something. With all of our problems, this is still the best country in the world. And I do believe that we can make it even better, but it means that people of goodwill have to stand up and say, “Look. Enough of this racism. Enough of this other stuff.” Because a lot of folks don’t understand why the whole concept of racism was invented in the first place. It was for economic reasons. It wasn’t for color. The color thing was used as the basis for making some other people rich. People who came here from Western Europe understood something. In order to be wealthy or successful, you have to have land, capital, entrepreneurship and cheap labor. And it’s the cheap labor that caused them to go to Africa. They they thought about going to India first because the Indians over here wouldn’t work for ‘em because, you know, they would--they’d work a little while and then they’d run off into the mountains and then you couldn’t find ‘em. But they – they considered going to India, but that didn’t work so they went on to Africa because the Africans were immune to many of those – of those diseases that were – that were killing off people. But it was all – it wasn’t about race per se. Race was the – was the battering ram that was being used to divide people. And it’s still what’s going on now. SHORT: Uh-huh. Let’s get back to Atlanta for just a minute. KING: Sure. SHORT: Your sit-ins were successful. The – the restaurants were integrated. As I recall, though, it was dependent upon the schools, and that was what, 1961? KING: Yes. SHORT: The big shots in town decided they would integrate the restaurants after the schools were integrated. KING: Yeah. SHORT: Was that satisfactory to you? KING: Oh, no. Oh, no. Oh, no. In fact, we had a knock-down, drag-out fight with the Chamber of Commerce about that, and I would not agree with it because, you see, Bob, if you have won a battle – if you’ve won the race – you’re entitled to a victory lap. SHORT: Uh-huh. KING: This battle that we had with the white power structure and the black power structure, they denied the students a victory lap for political reasons. The black power structure was trying to hold on for dear life because a younger generation of black folks were gonna take that place and, in fact, ultimately did take their place – like Jesse Hill, Leroy Johnson. So they were fighting for dear life, and what they had to do was to try to discredit the students. But it didn’t work because the lunch counters were, in fact, desegregated. But, yes, I had a monumental battle down at the Chamber of Commerce, but let me tell you the person who convinced me to at least tentatively agree to it subject to my going back to get it ratified by the students. It was John Calhoun, a big Republican. John Calhoun pulled me aside and he said, “Lonnie, I’m 60-something years old now, and every day of my life I’ve been segregated. If we’re going to be able to go anywhere we want to go downtown to eat by September,” (and this is now March) he said, “I’m for doing it.” He said, “Remember now I’ve been around for 60-something years and – and now you’ve made it possible for us to go down there in a little over 60-something days.” He said, “So you’ve won the battle.” I said, “But, John, we are being denied a victory lap.” And so he, he didn’t – he didn’t say any more. But let me say something else to you, Bob. We did more than just integrate the lunch counters. We filed a lawsuit – a successful lawsuit – to integrate all the parks/recreation places. We also filed a lawsuit to integrate all the courthouses around here. Now that’s not well-known, but we filed the lawsuit, won in federal court, and got all these things. So it was not just lunch counters ; there were some other things too. SHORT: Uh-huh. [Break] SHORT: Okay. So we’ve – we’ve integrated – well, we were talking about lawsuits. KING: Yeah. SHORT: And we can go back to, I guess, the Baker case in 1954, which was the first big civil rights case that was decided by the Supreme Court. It seemed to me at that time that that was an avenue to file other court cases to do other things. Do you agree? KING: Well, I would go a little bit further than the Baker case. The Supreme Court began to more broadly interpret the 14th Amendment, in my view, as early as the 1930s when they began to let blacks into professional schools. Then in the 1940s, they, in Sweatt v. Texas where they told the Texas legislature that you have to build a school for blacks if you’re not gonna let ‘em come to--you know. And, of course, they built Texas Southern Law School, but that case was won. It was a progression of cases and you had the restrictive covenant cases before then, so I think you saw a gradual expanding of the 14th Amendment to the Constitution using class actions as a means or as a vehicle for making it happen. And so, by the time of Baker and Brown and what have you, it was time to reverse Plessy of 1896. SHORT: Let’s tell people what Plessy was. KING: Okay. Oh, that’s Plessy v. Ferguson. A mulatto man in New Orleans got on the train, streetcar, whatever, and he was denied a seat based on his race, and he then took them to court. And the Supreme Court ruled in 1896 that the law of the land would be separate but equal in public transportation, but that – but then that just kind of went to every other part of the society. It was later on, 58 years later, in Brown, that Plessy was reversed. But let me just say this to you. When they made that decision in ‘96 – 1896 – it was a culmination of a series of reversals that blacks had after the ending of the Civil War. That was the federal government putting its imprimatur on what a lot of state governments had already done. Plus, you had a Supreme Court justice by the name of Roger Taney (or " ; Tawny" ; , depending upon how you want to pronounce it). This man had a disproportionate influence on the Supreme Court and its direction for about 50 years. And he was a – he was a racist, segregationist man who was a slave owner up in Maryland, and he dictated how that court was gonna run. In fact, he’s the one who wrote the – the majority opinion in the famous case in – in 1957 ; no, I’m sorry, 18 – 1857 – wherein he said in that case that the blacks or the negroes had no rights that a white man is bound to respect. And when you look at his history, you find that he controlled the federal court system like no other chief justice probably ever, and so even the district judges were pretty much under his umbrella. But the law is a very, very deliberate, very slow mechanism. And when people have been subjected to inhuman treatments for centuries, it’s very difficult to ask them to continue for a few more centuries in the same situation. And that – I mean, if you could just understand that, by 1960, the idea of freedom for blacks had come, not just in the South but in Africa and other parts of the Third World, if you just look at it, they were having battles all over the place. Colonialism kind of pretty much ended during that period of time. SHORT: Let’s talk further about Plessy for a moment. As late as 1962, most politicians in the South were relying on Plessy as the reason for separate but equal facilities. I think everyone knew that facilities were not equal, although they were separate. KING: They knew that. John Hope Franklin, in his book, Up From Slavery – oh, no, I’m sorry, From Slavery to Freedom – talks about this, wherein he – he’s able to show that when it came to allocation of public funds, you had allocation of public funds for education two to three or four times, up to ten times, more than – for whites than for blacks. So the idea of separate and equal, there was never any equal. It was separate. The emphasis of separate but equal, it was on separate, not on equal. However, the Supreme Court, after ‘54, due to a number – after the Supreme Court decision of ‘54, a number of southern states began to build what they called “Supreme Court schools.” They began to build schools all over the place trying to catch up, you know. So, all of a sudden, they were hoping to build these neighborhood schools so that they could have children going to schools in their neighborhood, and you know what? That theory worked because we now have, to a great extent, a white noose around a black inner city in so many cities in America. And what’s unfortunate in this, Bob, is that we have so many children who are still being denied a quality education to this day, but we cannot blame entirely white politicians because some of the people who are not doing what they should be doing look like me, who are running these school systems. And they spend more time trying to make sure that they get good jobs for their cronies and not enough time trying to educate these children. I don’t believe that these kids can’t learn, but I think it requires commitment, whether it’s a white teacher or a black teacher. I am extremely pleased to look at the kids from “Teach for America”. Ninety-something percent of those kids are white, but you know what they’re doing as they – as they go around America? They are turning the educational system upside down, quietly but it’s happening everywhere they go. And they come in with commitment. Those kids can go anywhere, but they make a choice to come in to help these kids, many of whom have never seen a daddy, and try to get those children on some track to stop them from going to prison. And I have to applaud them because it is a wonderful program that these young white kids have embarked on. It’s another movement. And this movement, Bob, really is an old movement that has been renewed because there was a slave in Kentucky who was freed in 1865 as an anonymous – they don’t know his name – and he said that, “Freedom without education is not freedom at all.” And, if you look, it’s when you have an uneducated mass, all kinds of problems flow from the miseducation or uneducation of these people, or any people for that matter. And so we’ve got to go back and get our hands dirty it seems to me and begin to try and teach these young black kids – especially these young black boys – how to read, how to write, and get them inspired to believe that they can be something other than a prisoner. I was talking to my son a few years ago and – about this whole problem – and he said, “Dad, you know what? Young kids in the ghetto today don’t see prison in the same way that you see prison.” And I said, “Well, what are – what are you – what are you – what do you mean?” He said, “Well, they' ; ll get three meals a day. They’ll get – they can exercise, build their bodies up, etc., and see all their friends.” I said, “I see.” We have to change people’s perception of what is a good thing and a bad thing, and that means then that, unfortunately, some old soldiers like me and some other folks coming along are gonna have to say, “Wait a minute. Let’s go and try to see can we help these children.” This is not about race now so much as it is about the fact that if we don’t help these children and get them going in the right direction, we’re gonna be paying for it seven, eight, nine years down the road by paying for their incarceration. So we have an economic incentive, in my view, to try and make these children into better citizens. SHORT: What role did SNCC play in some of Dr. King’s programs? KING: Well, I think SNCC and King had a positive relationship, but there were tensions at times because I think SNCC was a lot more aggressive than King. SNCC would be willing to go in and fight the lion head-on, bare-handed. King might not do it quite that way. But I’ll tell you this though. It wasn’t just SNCC, it was Malcolm X too. America had a choice, in my view, during that time of do you support a Malcolm or do you support a King? And if you have a choice between someone who is saying “whites are devils” and what have you and someone who’s saying “we’re all brothers” but each having the same goal, the guy who preaches nonviolence is gonna be the one to win it. And that’s really what happened. King was not any more eloquent than Malcolm X, but his message was more palatable. He was – it was palatable to me too because we were taught not to be black racists when we were coming up in school. Now that may sound strange to you, but we were taught that we have to be adherent to an inclusive philosophy and that democracy denied to someone else because of their color is a bad thing. SHORT: Did you participate in the Freedom Rides? KING: Well, peripherally, yes. Jim – let me just tell you, first of all (and I’m writing a book and I’m going to have to put some of these things in the book) – the first Freedom Rides, of course, were back in I guess in the ‘40s by Jim Farmer. But, in December of 1960, we sent from Atlanta a bunch of students riding the buses into Memphis, Tennessee, Charleston, South Carolina, Jacksonville, Florida, Birmingham, Alabama, and it’s all accounted for and there is a documentation of this in the newspapers. The New York Times wrote about what we had done and so Jim Farmer had called me in January after he saw the article (because it was done near the Christmas holidays) and he wanted to know from me, “Well, Lonnie, tell me about this. What is it that you all did?” And so I told him. He said, “Well, we’re thinking about doing the same thing now coming out of New York to Washington and on down.” And so, in fact, when they got here, I spoke to them over there at Clark College as they – as they were coming through. And one of the things I said to them was that, “You’re gonna run into an entirely different reception when you get to Birmingham, Alabama.” I said, “There are two – two guys named Adams who own the service station down there, and they are the most outrageous racists down there.” And so the next morning, they left for – going toward Montgomery, but going through Birmingham – and I got the word that night that they had attacked the buses and burned them. So a man named Frank Holloway and I got in the car and drove down to-- I guess it was Gadsden, Alabama, at the time--and we went in there hoping that we could – we could help some of them get out or something. There was a dentist down there who was the head of NAACP, so we actually went to his house because he was someone that we’d known. But by the time we actually got there, they had already kind of quelled everything and they were on their way. So we didn’t go any further, but Frank Holloway and I did go down there to try to see could we get some of them out of there because I knew that those Adams boys were gonna ambush them. Which is what they did. SHORT: Well, as time passed and battles won, it seems that SNCC began a slow demise and turned into a more of a Black Power organization. KING: Yeah. What happened on that, Bob, is that you had some resentment being building up among some of the SNCC people over the fact that some of the whites were more talented as they saw it, and it, yeah, it kind of boiled over--because I think John was the head of it at that time. It kind of boiled over and Stokely Carmichael seized upon this feeling and kind of pretty much brought forward this idea of Black Power. If there was a press release that needed to be written, somehow or another the whites could write the press releases faster than the blacks could, for whatever the reasons. I think a part of that hurt some of these folks and there were other – there were other little reasons too that I think some of them got all involved, but Stokely’s position was that blacks can do it too. Now I think he used a code word that did not serve the movement well, and I would not have used those – those words, but I think that I understood why he did it but I don’t – but I would not agree with the way he did it because, to a great extent, the black movement lost an awful lot of goodwill as a result of that particular thing. And then – and then Rap Brown did not help at all by furthering that. You see, Bob, I believe that the people who started SNCC probably would never have done that. The people who were running SNCC by the time Stokely came along were the people who grabbed the mantle because many of us had gone on to school some other place. And you have to understand that the students who led this movement were transitory. We were not permanent residents per se. Well, I was permanently in Atlanta, but, by and large, students are, you know, four years, five years, six, depending how smart you are or what your major is. You know? And then you’re gone. And so and SNCC was a student-led organization to a great extent. So a lot of the folks who conceived the idea were not there, but the baby was already born and so somebody else started nursing the baby because the other folks had gone. SHORT: But it served its purpose. KING: It served its purpose and-- SHORT: What’s the status of SNCC today? KING: I think it’s – well, I think – I think that the spirit of SNCC is still around. We’re having a 50th reunion up in Raleigh over the next Easter weekend, and we’ll be all old folks going in there talking about what happened 50 years ago. You know? It’s like a family reunion I guess. SHORT: Religion played a big part in the Movement, didn’t it? KING: Yes. We – yeah, because if you follow the Judeo-Christian principles, you are gonna find yourself using religion as a lot of the bases of the songs you sing, some of the beliefs that you have, all flow from a religious orientation and, to a great extent, many of us were Protestant, you know. A lot of us were Baptists. There weren’t that many Muslims around, and other people around. We had some other kind of ideologies. Not that I’m opposed to those sorts ; I’m just saying though that the – that the bulk of us were Southern Baptists. SHORT: Many ministers involved. KING: Well, Bob, that’s the myth. Most of your black ministers at that time were not in the Movement because it was unsafe to be in the Movement. But you did have some courageous ones. The most courageous minister of all was Fred Shuttlesworth down in Birmingham, who’s still alive, by the way, only because he left Birmingham I think. But that was, to me, that was the most courageous preacher of all. And I’m happy to see he’s in his 80’s and he’s still here. But ministers did play a major role, but their numbers were not great. There were – there must be 1,500 to 2,000 churches in the state of Georgia. I doubt that we had 50 churches that were actually Movement churches. It was unsafe, Bob. They would bomb your church. Look at 16th Street Baptist Church in Birmingham. They might shoot people. And the one thing that people like to do is that they like to keep on living. SHORT: You’re right. Do you agree that the behavior of white racists was a plus in the Movement? KING: In an indirect way it was because people of goodwill who had no dog in that race at all had a chance to see the contrast between the students or the people pushing for the rights and the people who were trying to deny rights. And fair-minded people said, “Wait a minute now. It’s a no-brainer as to who’s right here.” Especially when you realize that you have fair-minded people who have been taught in their public schools about democracy, about the 14th Amendment, about freedom, and so it ended up being a situation where I think the overwhelming majority of folks in the world, not just in America – thought that our cause was right. SHORT: Uh-huh. Let’s talk for a minute about the FBI surveillance of the Movement. KING: Okay. SHORT: You got any examples of that? KING: Well, yeah. The FBI – well, I had an FBI contact who talked to me about it once a month. We got to the point where he – he called me up and he said, “You know? Why don’t we just meet once a month and we just talk?” So, sure enough, once a month, he’d just sit down and we’d just have lunch and talk. It wasn’t – I did not view him as being someone who was trying to pump me per se, but I knew – I had enough sense to know – that he was trying to see if there was any reason why he ought to tell J. Edgar Hoover that there was something adverse going on. You see, Hoover was – had this anti-Communist fixation about him. Any time you challenged the status quo in America under him, you were a Communist. I mean that-- and so we had to kind of outlive Hoover. Interestingly enough, when I left to go to Washington, DC, the same FBI agent ended up still talking to me once a month. You know? I mean, he’d just show up and talk to me. But I don’t know how many other folks had those kinds of experiences, but that, I had a personal one who just talked to me once a month. And I went to – and I, when I – and I asked for my files once here in the last few years, and everything is blacked out of my files but my name. SHORT: Well, I think you’ll agree that Dr. King was, without a doubt, the leader-- KING: Oh, no, uh-huh. SHORT:--of the Civil Rights Movement. And do you think that’s known today among young black Americans? KING: Some black Americans don’t even know who Martin King was. But let me just quite – let me just give you my view, and I’m a little bit different from you on this, Bob. Martin King was the voice of the Movement. But there were many leaders. Because you cannot overlook the role of A. Philip Randolph, who inspired the first March on Washington in 1941 against Franklin Delano Roosevelt ; or Dorothy Height, who is still alive, by the way, at 90-whatever ; or Whitney Young, or Roy Wilkins. In their own way, these persons played a major role because each one of them had a constituency. But none of them had the voice of Martin King, trained preacher, son of a preacher, grandson of a preacher ; so it was speaking was in his innards. But I would not say – there was a collective leadership, in my opinion. Martin, but, of the collective leadership, Martin King was the voice. And that’s his voice that you hear because that voice could articulate in such a way that if he was commenting on Shakespeare, he can make the average person in the street say, “Amen.” Only once in a lifetime do you find someone who can take the words and turn them into something that is pliable that people can say, “You know, he’s talking to me. He’s inspiring me.” King could do that. KING: So I’m saying to you that I would not say he was the leader of the Movement, but I would say that he was the leading voice of the Movement. And I only say that because I cannot, having been so close to the Movement, dismiss the role of the NAACP, the Urban League and other folks who were also working just as aggressively but whose leaders did not have the voice that King had. SHORT: Uh-huh. Is there a voice today? KING: Not in my view, no. No. And that’s a good thing and a bad thing. It’s a good thing in the sense that maybe, if there was a voice, the person, he’d be on the hit list of these right-wingers. SHORT: Right. KING: You have a more localized or regionalized voice or voices today, and we are becoming more like white people. Okay? There is no white voice per se, unless it’s the President, but now the President’s black. So--I think it' ; s good to not have, see, because if you shoot down the leader or the voice, you kill the movement. That’s what a lot of folks thought was gonna happen and, in fact, to a great extent it did happen. So you – you need to diversify, and that’s what we’ve done accidentally. I don’t think it was on purpose. SHORT: Uh-huh. Looking back, Lonnie, what do you think was the Movement’s greatest triumph? KING: In the long run, the greatest triumph I think was really the Voting Rights Act. When you start talking about triggering people’s vote into representative government. But it’s going to take a while for us to really experience that particular benefit of the Movement. The most immediate impact of the Movement was the physical changes in terms of where people could sit, what you could – where you could go, or where you could buy houses, those kind of things. But that was almost immediate. But the long-range thing that’s gonna play a much, much more significant role as we go forward and into the future is going to be the impact of the Voting Rights Act. We’re gonna find in what, 20 – what is it, 20 – is it? I’ve forgotten the year now, but it was renewed for 25 more years. You’re gonna have a battle when it comes up for renewal next time because there are gonna be people who are gonna still realize that, “You know, we need to keep these folks from voting because they might vote us out of office.” SHORT: What about the biggest failure or disappointment? KING: In my view, the biggest failure – and I have to say this is Monday morning quarterbacking – we did not figure out a way to pass the baton on to other young college students who were coming along. I remind you I said early on that it’s the – it’s the young folks who are the soldiers, and we weren’t able to pass that on. And I don’t want to unfairly criticize us, but I’m telling you that that’s what I think happened. Had we passed it on, we should have talked about the next step which is economic development. And, see, you want to go buy a hamburger, but you need to make enough money to be able to afford the hamburger, and I don’t think that we really found a way to take us to public accommodation, then take us to voting rights, then take us to economic development. Somehow or another, we haven’t gotten there yet. And one of the tragedies, Bob, in my view of the Movement, is that those of us, myself included, went to sleep when we gained these unprecedented rights. And a lot of us have been asleep for almost 50 years. Rip Van Winkle only slept 20 but we’ve been asleep for a long time. But while we were asleep, the people who were opposed to us getting rights in the first place have been wide awake and they have been slowly but surely stacking the Supreme Court, stacking the district courts, stacking the Court of Appeals. They realized that they could not, from a public policy point of view, change the Civil Rights Acts, change the Voting Rights Act, change the Housing Act, but what they did do was they worked on a considered strategy that’s changed the people who are interpreting the laws. That’s what they’ve done. So, therefore, you look out here now and you see people who are sitting on these benches making decisions. They don’t overrule the Civil Rights Acts ; they just rule against you on summary judgment. And if you lose a case on summary judgment, you’ve got a 99 chance out of 100 of not succeeding on the appellate level. So you’ve been denied access through these appointments. And, to an extent, you have a repeat of what happened after Reconstruction. You had the Klan then going around killing people, trying to make sure that we keep separate but equal. You now have, through the last 40 years of Republican control, you have white collar criminals who go in and become a federal judge and they tend to interpret the law against you. Let me give you a case in point. George Bush, the last George Bush, wanted to appoint a person to the Court of Appeals in the Fourth Circuit up in South Carolina/Virginia. So the Democrats opposed the gentleman, along with many other civil rights organizations. But when they got down to the man’s record, they found out that there had been several hundred civil rights cases that had come before him as a district judge. He ruled against every last one of those persons who had filed a complaint of discrimination – and it was hundreds of them – at summary judgment, which meant that they didn’t even get into court. They filed and he ruled against them on the papers that were there. He’s saying basically, “There’s not enough of a case here for you to go forward for full trial.” He did that for several hundred, but one case he did agree that you’ve met the threshold for probable cause and that was a case of a white man in South Carolina who alleged reverse discrimination based on the Civil Rights Act. Now he didn’t get the appointment because that was just so blatant, but he’s just a poster boy, in my view, of the kind of behind-the-scenes machinations that Republicans, especially those from the South, were involved in trying to roll back behind the scenes in the dead of night the gains of people who fought to try to become a part of the American democracy. SHORT: What do you think are the most important issues facing African-Americans today? KING: Well, there’s so many, but most important I think would be education again, trying to find a way to get more of these young black folks educated so that they can become more productive in society for themselves. And if they’re productive themselves, then overall society is more productive. Tied into that, of course, would be to work on the dropout rate. It’s a crime for one out of two children to be dropping out of school for, for whatever the reasons ; and we’ve got to look at it. And we don’t need to keep waiting for white people to come and save us. We have to, as African-Americans, begin to try to save ourselves. We’ve got to call a spade a spade. We’ve got to say to black people who are not doing their job, “You’ve gotta do your job.” Just like we call out white people, we’ve got to call out black people. So it’s education. Then I think that education would, if you get enough education, then people would learn how to be businesspeople, how to be professors or how to be whatever, and you begin to create a whole different kind of society. But right now, we have a society wherein a lot of people who are under 20 think that they might be dead before they’re 25 and so, “Let me get it all now.” And what that means is that I’m gonna go and rob Bob’s house and get some of what he has. I’m going to go and rob your house and get some of what you have. The way we stop that is not only through public safety – increasing public safety – but you’ve got to also be able to get people to understand that there are some choices that you are – that you should be making that you’re not making. SHORT: Isn’t that what Bill Cosby has been saying? KING: Bill Cosby was 100 percent right and he was – he was attacked by people that are ne’er-do-wells. You see, if you tell people the truth sometimes, it’s very, very disconcerting. The easiest thing in the world, Bob, is to say, “You know, the devil made me do it,” or, “You know, these white racists did it to me.” If they break into my – if some black folks break into my house with a gun to my head and they want to shoot my wife, I can’t blame somebody who’s not even in the neighborhood. We’ve got to deal with reality and not have racism – reverse racism – as the scapegoat. And my – Cosby’s – message is not popular. I’m sure mine won’t be popular either. But I don’t think that the best tenets of America are couched in this kind of language that these people are involved in. Bill Cosby was right 100 percent. SHORT: Well, what has life been like for Lonnie King after your Civil Rights career, or are you still a Civil Rights activist? KING: Well, I think I’m gonna probably always be that for the rest of my life or – I had a chance to go off to get a Ph.D. in Economics and become a college professor under Dr. E. B. Williams years ago when I was at Morehouse. I turned that down and went on into this area and, as life would have it, I’m back into the college. I’m teaching, you know, at Georgia State. You know, so, in a way, I’m doing what I was slated to be doing in the late ‘50s and early ‘60s, and I’m doing it at the end of my life as opposed to at the first part of my life. But I’ve had a very, very good opportunity here. I’ve been a senior manager in the federal government. I’ve run my own company. I’ve been a real estate developer. So I’ve done a lot of stuff and I’ve learned a lot about how you can get things done, and especially about how to organize. So I’m happy. SHORT: Tell us about your family. KING: I have a wife and three kids. They’re all doing very well. My grandkids are doing well too. I have a grandkid – one grandkid – who’s the oldest who is, his name is Drew Ford. This – this kid is a renaissance man. He lives out in Fayette County and he has made one B in school. He’s got an offer from over a hundred and something colleges to come, one of them, of course, being Harvard, and I think he’s gonna do well. He’s a – he plays for the junior symphony here of the Atlanta Symphony Orchestra. He’s in the first chair as a viola this year. He’s a champion debater and I’m just proud of him. I mean, he’s really quite a fellow. And his younger brother coming behind him is even better – he’s even smarter than he is. So – so I’ve tried my best to get my children and my grandchildren going in a certain direction. I don’t want them to be victims, and I want – they should not be victimizing anybody else either. Get your education and move forward. Now my – my daughter was trying to say to me, “Well, Dad, he has a chance to go to Harvard, but you know he can go to Georgia Tech too.” I said, “Let me tell you something. Georgia Tech is a great school. No question about it. But there’s only one Harvard and if your – and if Harvard wants your son to come, they need to go.” SHORT: Well, Lonnie King, you’ve been a very interesting and informative guests – guest – and I want to thank you for being on our program today. KING: Well, thank you very much for inviting me, and I’m looking forward to viewing this and so forth and so on. It’s good to see you again. SHORT: Good to see you. KING: Yeah. SHORT: It really is. KING: No hair and you still have yours! SHORT: Yeah. A lot of old memories. KING: Yes. Well, thank you very much for the interview. Okay? SHORT: Really enjoyed it. Thank you. KING: Yeah. Resources may be used under the guidelines described by the U.S. Copyright Office in Section 107, Title 17, United States Code (Fair use). Parties interested in production or commercial use of the resources should contact the Russell Library for a fee schedule. video 0 RBRL220ROGP-086.xml RBRL220ROGP-086.xml http://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL220ROGP/findingaid http://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL220ROGP-085/findingaid
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Interview with Lonnie King, September 28, 2009
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RBRL220ROGP-086
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Lonnie King
Bob Short
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video
oral histories
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African Americans--History
Discrimination
Political activists
Civil rights
Civil rights demonstrations
Student movements
School integration
United States--Civil rights
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Lonnie King was born in Arlington, Georgia. He was raised in Atlanta and served in the U.S. Navy. He left the Navy in 1957, returned to Atlanta, and earned his degree from Morehouse College. In 1960 he was present at the founding of the Student Non-violent Coordinating Committee at Shaw University. On March 9, 1960, King and SNCC published An Appeal for Human Rights as an advertisement in various Atlanta newspapers. A critical document of the Civil Rights Movement, the Appeal called for complete racial desegregation by peaceful and nonviolent means. King discusses his childhood in the deep south, his work with SNCC and SCLC, and his friendship with Martin Luther King, Jr.
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2009-09-28
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Georgia
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moving image
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Reflections on Georgia Politics Oral History Collection
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Georgia--History
Georgia--Politics and government
Politics and Public Policy
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The Reflections on Georgia Politics Oral History Collection consists of interviews with politically prominent Georgians conducted by Bob Short from 2006 to 2016. Interviewees include former governors, members of both the U.S. and Georgia Congresses, secretaries of state, lobbyists, journalists, lawyers, activists, and relatives of prominent politicians. Included with these oral histories are a few public programs recorded at Young Harris College in 2006-2007. Most interviews were recorded in the homes and offices of interviewees or in the Bob Short Oral History Studio at the University of Georgia. The conversations cover many topics at the intersection of politics and public life in modern Georgia, with a particular strength in gubernatorial contests, the Civil Rights movement, reapportionment, the development of Atlanta, the rise of the Republican party in Georgia, political journalism, and the interaction between religion and politics.<br /><br /><a href="http://georgiaoralhistory.libs.uga.edu/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=&range=&collection=9&type=&tags=OHMS&featured=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">View all OHMS indexed interviews in this collection here. </a>
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Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
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Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
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2006-2016
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RBRL220ROGP
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Georgia
Oral History
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5.3 Interview with Tom Houck, September 28, 2009 RBRL220ROGP-087 RBRL220ROGP Reflections on Georgia Politics Oral History Collection ROGP 087 Interview with Tom Houck Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies, University of Georgia Tom Houck Bob Short oral history 1:|15(8)|26(4)|37(13)|50(5)|64(6)|76(11)|88(1)|100(10)|114(13)|128(4)|141(15)|157(12)|171(12)|193(4)|204(3)|218(1)|227(12)|240(7)|255(1)|266(1)|279(5)|289(11)|303(15)|321(9)|335(4)|348(4)|361(2)|373(14)|385(13)|396(2)|411(3)|427(12)|439(11)|450(11)|465(2)|483(9)|502(8)|514(6)|528(1)|546(5)|562(4)|581(10)|591(7)|607(3)|622(11)|636(6)|647(12)|657(13)|671(11)|682(9)|692(1)|703(10)|714(13)|725(10)|739(6)|746(12)|758(12)|773(13)|782(5)|790(7)|801(12)|810(8)|820(2)|828(10)|839(12)|851(11)|862(10)|873(2)|890(4)|904(3)|914(15)|928(8)|940(8)|956(4)|966(12)|980(8)|996(4)|1013(11)|1025(13)|1037(9)|1050(1)|1060(4)|1072(6)|1089(6)|1106(15)|1119(9) 0 Kaltura video < ; iframe id=" ; kaltura_player" ; src=" ; https://cdnapisec.kaltura.com/p/1727411/sp/172741100/embedIframeJs/uiconf_id/26879422/partner_id/1727411?iframeembed=true& ; playerId=kaltura_player& ; entry_id=1_75l667de& ; flashvars[localizationCode]=en& ; flashvars[leadWithHTML5]=true& ; flashvars[sideBarContainer.plugin]=true& ; flashvars[sideBarContainer.position]=left& ; flashvars[sideBarContainer.clickToClose]=true& ; flashvars[chapters.plugin]=true& ; flashvars[chapters.layout]=vertical& ; flashvars[chapters.thumbnailRotator]=false& ; flashvars[streamSelector.plugin]=true& ; flashvars[EmbedPlayer.SpinnerTarget]=videoHolder& ; flashvars[dualScreen.plugin]=true& ; & ; wid=1_61l77dsc" ; width=" ; 400" ; height=" ; 285" ; allowfullscreen webkitallowfullscreen mozAllowFullScreen frameborder=" ; 0" ; > ; < ; /iframe> ; English 49 Introduction into civil rights / Meeting Martin Luther King From Boston to Jacksonville to Atlanta. Tell us about your early life and why you came here. Houck discusses how his interest in the civil rights movement began, citing television coverage of the civil rights movement and < ; i> ; Brown v. Board of Education< ; /i> ; as his biggest influences. He also notes the importance of his African-American teacher, Ms. Thompson, in spurring his interest in civil rights. Houck then reminisces about his first time meeting Martin Luther King, Jr. at the Selma to Montgomery march. Boston, Massachusetts ; Greensboro, North Carolina ; Hosea Williams ; Jacksonville, Florida ; John Lewis ; Somerville, Massachusetts ; Woolworth's 17 343 Beginning of the SLCL / Chauffeuring for Dr. King Tell us a little bit about SCLC. Houck describes the origins of the SCLC (Southern Christian Leadership Conference), with particular emphasis on Martin Luther King's role. Houck also tells how he came to be Dr. King's chauffeur, starting with Houck helping King answer mail. Atlanta, Georgia ; Auburn Avenue ; Collier Heights, Georgia ; Coretta King ; Ebenezer Baptist Church ; high yellow church ; Joseph Lowery ; Montgomery Bus Boycott ; Ralph David Abernathy ; SNCC ; Vine City, Georgia 17 945 Thoughts on Hosea Williams / Conversations when driving Dr. King Before we get too far along, let me ask you about and let's talk about Hosea Williams. Houck briefly gives his opinion on Hosea Williams as a field director and leader for SLCL. Houck then remembers the various topics that he and King discussed while Houck was driving King, from music to hobbies to political opinions. Andrew Young ; Charles Cato ; Charles Morgan, Jr. ; Charles Weltner ; Civil Rights Act ; Ivan Allen ; lottery ; reading ; softball ; swimming 17 1404 The King family / Gandhi and nonviolence Well, you drove the King children to school. Houck remembers his times driving Dr. King's children to their schools, as well as the family's involvement in the civil rights movement. Houck then explains Gandhi's influence on Dr. King's life, including how central nonviolence was to King's movement. black power ; Chicago, Illinois ; Eric Roberts ; freedom concert ; Grady High School ; Malcolm X ; Maria Saporta ; Memphis, Tennessee ; Richard J. Daley ; Spring Street Elementary School ; Stokely Carmichael ; Yolanda King 17 1833 Participation in marches / King's opinions on government involvement You were on the March to Washington, weren't you? Houck recalls how he began participating in marches by meeting with Hosea Williams in St. Augustine. He then tells about the government efforts to stop Dr. King, such as interference from Georgia governors and FBI investigations. 1960 presidential election ; Albany, Georgia ; Democratic Party ; Dorothy Cotton ; J.T. Johnson ; John Kennedy ; Lester Maddox ; Martin Luther King, Sr. ; Republican Party ; Richard Nixon ; William Holmes Borders 17 2179 < ; i> ; Houck and Williams v. Birmingham, Jefferson County< ; /i> ; and Charles Morgan, Jr. Let's talk a little bit more about your role with the SCLC. Houck recounts his involvement with the SLCL, particularly one time he was arrested during a protest, which turned into the Supreme Court case < ; i> ; Houck and Williams v. Birmingham, Jefferson County< ; /i> ; . He then details his relationship with Charles " ; Charlie" ; Morgan, who was his attorney in that case. ACLU ; desegregation of jail ; Howard Moore ; Parker High School ; Stoney Cooks ; voting registration ; Voting Rights Act ; Zell Miller 17 2640 Importance of King and Atlanta in the civil rights movement / Atlanta's mayors Well, my question was if Dr. King had not become the voice of the civil rights movement... Houck explain's King's importance as the central figure in the civil rights movement, particularly how he brought numerous key figures in the movement to Atlanta. He then gives his opinions about each of Atlanta's mayors from Maynard Jackson to the then-current mayor, Shirley Franklin. Alderman ; Andrew Young ; Atlanta city council ; Hosea Williams ; Ivan Allen ; James George Bond ; John Lewis ; Joseph Lowry ; Julian Bond ; Renee Glover ; Sam Massell ; SNCC ; William Craig Campbells 17 3245 Thoughts on Manuel Maloof, John Lewis, and Julian Bond / Miller-Young gubernatorial race You've got to mention one more time that you're in the historic Manuel's Tavern. Houck explains the importance of Manuel's Tavern as a hub for Georgia and Atlanta politics, and mentions its owner, Manuel Maloof. He then gives his thoughts on the 1990 race for Georgia governor between Houck's friends, Andrew Young and Zell Miller, while noting that election's role in Bill Clinton's presidential campaign. Houck then explains his relationships with John Lewis and Julian Bond. Bill Clinton ; Carl Sanders ; Frank Greer ; George Stephanopoulos ; James Carville ; Jimmy Carter ; Mandy Grunwald ; Manuel's Tavern ; NAACP ; Paul Begally ; Paul Hemphill ; Rahm Emanuel 17 3844 Continuation of the civil rights movement / Death of Dr. King Let's get back for just a moment to the civil rights movement. Houck discusses the continuation of the civil rights movement after King's death. He also ponders whether the civil rights movement could be revived in the modern day, emphasizing Barack Obama's role as a source of inspiration. Houck then talks about his reaction to King's assassination. 2008 presidential election ; Ernie Austin ; Herman Talmadge ; Johnny Isakson ; Knoxville, Tennessee ; marches ; nonviolence ; Poor People's Campaign ; Saxby Chambliss 17 4388 Radio and television career Well, after your civil rights days, you became a talking head on the radio. Houck tells of how he came to host his own radio show, starting with his news column, The Tattler. He then describes how his radio show came to be on television. Houck then briefly talks about writing his memoir. Andy Fisher ; Atlanta Gazette ; Atlanta Magazine ; Bill Nigut ; Bill Ship ; Dick Williams ; Doug Blackmon ; Mike Wheeler ; Neil Boortz ; Rick Allen ; Ron Sailor ; Sunday News Conference ; Wayne Williams ; WSB TV 17 4685 Fate of the Democratic Party in Georgia You've always been a loyal Democrat. Houck gives his opinions on how the Democratic Party lost power in Georgia, citing Bobby Kahn's leadership as a key factor. He also gives his suggestions as to how the Democratic Party may regain control from the Republican Party. Georgia General Assembly ; Hispanic vote ; Jane Kidd ; Kasim Reed ; Lisa Borders ; Ralph Reed ; Roy Barnes ; Sonny Purdue ; Thomas Murphy ; Zell Miller 17 BOB SHORT: I’m Bob Short. This is Reflections on Georgia Politics sponsored by the Duckworth Library at Young Harris College and the Russell Library at the University of Georgia. We are here at Manuel’s Tavern, an Atlanta gathering place for political and other misguided souls. Our guest tonight is Tom Houck, well known Civil Rights activist, advisor to numerous political figures, radio talk show host, and a man about the town in Atlanta. Welcome, Tom. TOM HOUCK: Well, it’s quite an honor to be with you, Bob Short, and a shout out here to Cathy Cox up there at Young Harris. SHORT: Okay. From Boston to Jacksonville to Atlanta. Tell us about your early life and how and why you came here. HOUCK: Well, I guess you could say on August 21st, 1947, in Cambridge, Massachusetts in a public hospital an instigator provocateur was born ; and that man was me. They called me Buster in the hospital because I was crying and yelling and screaming from the moment I came out of my mother’s womb. And I lived in Somerville, which is actually a poorer section of Boston just outside of Cambridge, for the first six years of my life. Very working class Irish and Italian neighborhood. I come from Irish German heritage, and my father was a machinist when he could find work ; most of the time he was unemployed. My mother was a waitress at Howard Johnson Restaurant, in several Howard Johnson Restaurants. They got a little money together. They finally moved out of the suburbs to Framingham outside of Boston where I started to develop some of my own social consciousness. My second grade teacher was a black woman, and in those days--this was back in 1953--segregation in public schools in most places in the country, not so much in the northeast, although it was de facto, was mandated by law. It wasn’t until the Brown versus Board of Education decision in 1954 that changed that. So I was very fortunate as a young fellow to have an African American teacher who, Ms. Thompson sort of became my guidance, if you will, to where I would go down the road. Television was just becoming a major thing back in those days--not really a major thing. If you had a television, the whole neighborhood would be down the street watching it at your house, and we had a TV. I sort of moved towards/gravitated towards the news, started to watch the news. And I started to see what was happening in terms of the Brown versus Board of Education decision in 1954, and I asked my second grade teacher about this. And she told me that in many sections of the country colored and negro students couldn’t go to school with white students. Well, I just couldn’t understand that. I couldn’t understand why that was. Here I am at eight or nine years old. So then at that moment, I would say is what you would say is the defining moment, why I became involved in the Civil Rights movement and why in many ways I came to Atlanta, Georgia later in my life, was because of what happened in 1954 in the Brown versus Board of Education decision and television, all of those kinds of things mixed together. And when I was 12 years old, I was in Cambridge visiting a friend, and his uncle was a Unitarian minister and said he was going over to Woolworth’s to picket, a Woolworth’s to give support--and this is 1960--for the students in Greensboro, North Carolina who were getting arrested for sitting in at lunch counters. So that was my first actual time carrying a sign, a picket sign, when I was 12 years old outside a Woolworth’s store in Central Square, Cambridge, Massachusetts. SHORT: When did you meet Dr. Martin Luther King? HOUCK: Well, I met Dr. King actually, I’m sure he wouldn’t remember this, but actually met him in Selma in 1965. I had been going to a high school named for the founder of the Ku Klux Klan, Confederate General Nathan Bedford Forrest, and I was in Jacksonville, Florida living with an aunt. I caused quite a stir at that high school ; but you asked me how I met Dr. King, so what I did was, me and a couple of other students from Nathan Bedford Forrest, which was an all white high school, they were still segregating in Jacksonville. Went to Selma the week after Bloody Sunday, when our good friend now Congressman John Lewis and Hosea Williams led the march where they were brutally attacked with horses and dogs and billy clubs and regular violence by the Alabama State Troopers. That was in March of 1965. I actually went into a meeting of the SCLC staff, which was right down the street from the church in Selma where everybody was congregating for the big march, the Selma Montgomery March. And I actually met Dr. King that day. It wasn’t until about a year later that I actually came part of the SCLC staff, and actually my boss was Hosea Lorenzo Williams. He was the field director for SCLC, and I went to work for SCLC. And so it was through Hosea that I really met Dr. King. SHORT: Tell us a little bit about SCLC. HOUCK: SCLC started out of Montgomery bus boycott in 1956, ‘55 and ‘56. And it was started by Ralph David Abernathy, Reverend Dr. Joseph Lowery, and by Dr. Martin Luther King, along with a number of other people in the Montgomery Improvement Association, which was the organization in Montgomery that basically organized the demonstrations in the successful year-long boycott of the Montgomery buses led by the arrest of Rosa Parks. So what happened was, there was a number of churches across the south--the one thing that the authorities and the government couldn’t do in the south was to stop black churches. Black churches were the places where folks could go, where folks could sing, where folks could pray, where folks could organize, where folks could get out there and do the job of trying to right the wrongs of the past couple hundred years. So there were preachers all across the south, and they started this organization based in Montgomery, which Dr. King by the way had gone to Montgomery, funny enough, because he didn’t want to be in his father’s shadow in Atlanta. So in Montgomery found himself in what they would call there a high yellow church, which would be a church that was sort of made up of mailmen and mail women, mostly mailmen in those days, black mailmen and mail women, rail porters. The higher economic groups, doctors and teachers went to Dexter Avenue over there. He wasn’t interested in getting in the movement, by the way. Dr. King just wanted basically to get on his own and preach on his own and not be under his father’s shadow in Atlanta. So when he went to Montgomery, he had no idea that he was going to be leading a bus boycott within a year, and neither did the people in his church. Because, as I said, this was a middle income church, a stone’s throw from the cradle of the confederacy over there, the Capitol on Dexter Avenue in Montgomery, Alabama. But what Dr. King was, when he became that leader, we’re talking about a man of 25 years old. He was 25 years old when he led that Montgomery bus boycott and went on the national scene. Well, in 1957, the year after the Montgomery bus boycott ended and was successful, the organization was created and it was thought by most of the preachers that rather than having Montgomery as the headquarters, that the logical place would be Atlanta. So two years after Dr. King began pastoring at Dexter, he moved to Atlanta and set up headquarters here on Auburn Avenue right down the street from his father’s church and became associate pastor. He was never pastor of Ebenezer Baptist Church. Daddy King would let people know that as well. He was always the associate pastor of Ebenezer Baptist Church. SHORT: He was born on Auburn Avenue. HOUCK: He was born on Auburn Avenue and came back and put the headquarters of SCLC on Auburn Avenue, was associate pastor of Ebenezer Baptist Church on Auburn Avenue, and his funeral was at Ebenezer Baptist Church and the 150,000 people on April 9th, 1968, marched down Auburn Avenue. SHORT: Well, tell us a little bit about your association with him when you were his chauffeur. HOUCK: Well, let me tell you about that, how that happened. I was actually over working under Hosea, I was working in the field department of SCLC, and we were over in Grenada, Mississippi. And we were doing a peaceful demonstration September of 1966, and it was a support march of desegregating a high school there. And Dr. King and SCLC, which didn’t have a lot of high presence in Mississippi. That was pretty much SNCC and other Civil Rights organizations. SCLC was for Georgia, Alabama, and other parts of the south ; but Mississippi was very strong with SNCC but we went over there. There were about 20 SCLC staff people sitting around, and Dr. King’s talking about the fact that he had a lot of mail that he had to answer in Atlanta. He had a lot of mail that, you know, he was not getting answered and he needed some volunteers. So I raised my hand in the staff meeting, and I said, " ; Dr. King, I can help answer mail.” He said, " ; Tom, you haven’t even finished high school.” And I said, " ; well, I didn’t finish high school because I got kicked out of high school.” When I went to Selma, they suspended me for two weeks. They wanted to give me my diploma, and I refused it as a badge of honor. And so Dr. King said, " ; What can you write?” I said, " ; Well, I was a sports editor of my high school newspaper.” And he says, " ; Well, can you really answer mail?” I said " ; I can.” And so Dr. King looks at Bernard Lee, who was one of his assistants at that point, and Hosea wasn’t in the room, thank goodness. Had Hosea been in the room that day, I probably never would have been Dr. King’s driver because he would have refused to let me go. But Hosea I think had already left, so he wasn’t there. So Martin said, " ; Well, you want to wait for a couple of days and ride back" ; or he said " ; do you want to take a bus and we’ll get you a bus ticket, go back to Atlanta.” I said, " ; well, I’d love to take a bus because I’ve never been through Memphis and I’d have to take a bus to go from here to Memphis to get to Atlanta" ; and I wanted to see what Memphis looked like. So I got back to Atlanta, and I got back there on a Sunday morning probably around 10:00, and I went down to the SCLC headquarters, which was right now the street from Ebenezer, and there was no one there. And in those days, there were no cell phones. There were no iPhones. I mean, you had to go to the phone across the street at the VFW, put a nickel in, and make a phone call, which I did to the Freedom House, where I was going to stay. They said " ; Someone was going to come get you." ; Well, that went on for an hour and a half. No one came to get me. And finally, Dr. King had finished his sermon down the street at Ebenezer, which I should have gone down to but didn’t ; and he drives up in front of Ebenezer and says, " ; Tom…" ; he says, " ; Nobody’s picked you up from the Freedom House yet?” I said " ; No.” He said " ; Why don’t you come have lunch with us?” Lord have mercy. I mean, have lunch at the King household, I mean, it was incredible. And so as chance be, I went to have lunch at the household. Kids were in the car with me, and Dr. King had to go to a meeting, and Coretta started talking to me about Boston and my past and all that kind of stuff. And what happened was she asked me if I had my driver’s license. I said yeah. I said " ; Why do you ask me that question?” She said she’s had trouble with her drivers, and she said why don’t you think about taking the kids. I said I really know nothing about Atlanta, but I was probably GPS before that happened, I knew how to get to places very quickly and look at a map. So Coretta asked me if I would take the kids to school the next day, and I said I would be delighted to. You know, I’ll check in with Hosea, see what he has to say since he was my official boss. And she said " ; Don’t worry about it, I’ll have Martin call him.” And so I wound up driving the kids to school the next day, and then for a couple of weeks went back and forth driving the kids to school and helping to answer mail. And then Dr. King asked me if I would come on the road with him at times when he was traveling. But always in Atlanta my job was basically to take the kids around and take Dr. King to the airport or wherever he had to be when he was back in town. SHORT: My wife Diana wanted me to ask you what you had for lunch. HOUCK: Who asked that question? SHORT: My wife Diana. HOUCK: Why did she ask that question? SHORT: She was curious. HOUCK: What did I have for lunch? I had a grilled cheese sandwich. SHORT: So then I guess that answers her next question, which was: Was Mrs. King a good cook? HOUCK: Yes. Let me bring you into the household, if I can, the intimate side of this. By the way, I’m still in the process of putting together my memoir, " ; Driving Dr. King: Looking at History in my Rearview Mirror." ; Dr. King and Coretta King actually had four or five people on staff that worked for them. Dr. King had a great income. He could have chosen to live in those days at the Beverly Hills of the black community in Atlanta, Collier Heights, where his daddy lived and other prominent blacks lived ; but he chose to live in Vine City. So when he moved from what became the Freedom House, which unfortunately was torn down on Johnson Avenue, he moved over to, really the ghetto in Vine City in Atlanta. Everybody was saying, oh, no, no, no ; you know, Dr. King needs to have a better house. And he said he didn’t need a big house ; he didn’t need to have all the trappings of a big house. And neither did Coretta. They had a very basic brick bungalow on Sunset Avenue in Atlanta, where Coretta lived until the year before her death just a few years back. So she had a staff of like four people. When I say a staff, Mrs. Lockhart was their cook and housekeeper. But Coretta would cook more often than she would. Now, there’s one thing that Coretta wouldn’t cook. She wouldn’t cook chitterlings. And Dr. King loved chitterlings. One of his favorite and best friends was Juanita Abernathy, Ralph Abernathy’s wife, who was an expert chitterling cooker. So, my first smell of chitterlings was at Juanita Abernathy and Ralph Abernathy’s house. But yes, Coretta was a good cook. SHORT: Before we get too far along, let me ask you about and let’s talk about Hosea Williams. HOUCK: Well, I don’t think there’s anybody like him. Little David. He was a man that served his country, came back from serving his country and was beaten down in Attapulgus, Georgia at a water fountain. And it was from that moment on that he decided that he was never going to be beaten by anybody again in life, that he was going to be a crusader. Moved on to Savannah and got involved in the Civil Rights movement in Savannah, taught at Morris Brown College for a while, was a chemist. And he was the field director of SCLC. He was not necessarily a devotee to nonviolence in the sense of what nonviolence was ; he was a character bigger than life, a hell of an organizer. Hosea was what Martin used to refer as his " ; kamikazes.” Wasn’t afraid of nobody, no one, no where. And he liked a little taste every once in a while and was noted for his driving a car while under the influence, we’ll put it nicely. But Hosea probably is underrated in a sense, there' ; s now a statue on the other side of the Alabama River in Selma that commemorates the march with he and John Lewis, and John is a very good friend of mine. But Hosea I think in many ways was underrated in terms of his leadership in the Civil Rights movement and what he did. He brought four or 500 students down here in 1966 that helped really change in terms of voting rights and all across the south. Hosea was tenacious in his ability to organize and keep a good staff going and keep on going strong. And he was the leader, if there’s such a thing in a Civil Rights movement in the ‘60s. He was the leader of the foot soldiers of the Civil Rights movement. He was the sergeant out there, Bob. SHORT: Well, back to Dr. King, what did you and Dr. King talk about while you were driving him? HOUCK: Oh, all kinds of things. You know, those days you didn’t have telephones in the car. You didn’t have a cell phone. So, I mean, he was trapped ; I was trapped, however way you want to look at it, you know, in terms of talking. So we talked about everything from music to what was happening in the organization and there was other people in the car. I’m a 19-year-old kid now, remember, I’m a 19-year-old kid driving around at this point the leader of the March on Washington, had already won the Nobel Peace Prize, had led major movements in Selma and also Montgomery and, you know, was seen all over the world as the man of the millennium. And here I am driving him around in one of two cars. He had a Pontiac Bonneville, and he had a blue Bel Air Chevrolet. And oftentimes he’d drive me. I would just have the car, and he’d take me out to the airport. It was the old Atlanta Airport ; in those days you didn’t go through a lot of security, there was no security, actually. I mean, you just walked right into the airport. And so we talked about music. We would talk about, you know, what was coming up. Dr. King didn’t have, by the way, today everybody would have an entourage around them or they’d have a security guard. They’d have, you know, people with little earpieces in their ear. Dr. King didn’t have any of that. He had me. But it was always an interesting aspect to hear him talk about politics and where politics would be. I don’t think, had Dr. King lived, that he would have followed the path of a Jesse Jackson and run for President or a Andy Young and run for Congress. I think Martin would never have run for public office. But he did say, and it was interesting to hear, this was recently. In a BBC interview back in the 1960s Dr. King said that he fully expected that an African-American would be elected President not in his lifetime but shortly thereafter. And they asked him within 40 years, and he said maybe less, which was very prophetic in a sense of where he thought this would be, where this country would be today. And he would talk about the opportunities that he saw coming. But he also saw an economic hardship as being much more difficult to break down in terms of the poor in this country than the color barrier. And he said that he thought that that would last way beyond, way beyond that century, which was the last century and into the 21st century. SHORT: What was his opinion on the massive resistance to desegregation among the politicians in the south? HOUCK: Well, you know, interestingly enough, the way you put it, okay, Lyndon Johnson had said I think to Richard Russell that when he signed the Voting Rights Act, he said he lost the white vote, Democrats had lost the white votes for the next century or half century. And Martin saw it the same way. He realized that there had to be a new breed of white politicians. There was already a number of whites across the south who had a conscience and had been involved the Civil Rights movement. Many of them had to leave the towns and cities they were in, like Charles Morgan, Jr. had to leave Birmingham after praising Dr. King on his Birmingham jail letter. But Dr. King I think saw that there would be a new breed of white leadership that would rise up in what you’d call the 11 southern states of the old confederacy. And I think he saw that there would be a day when there would be more Ivan Allens, and Ivan Allen was already around in 1964 when he testified. And there would be more Charles Weltners here in Atlanta. There were a number of white politicians that stood out in terms of where, in his time, where the south was headed. He saw more Ivan Allens and Charles Weltners coming along. SHORT: Did he have any hobbies? HOUCK: Yes ; swimming. I mean, he was a great swimmer, which he had in common with Andy Young. Softball, he loved playing softball. He used to love the bug, for those of you that don’t know what the bug is, that’s the lottery. And we used to go an old shop down on Auburn Avenue here, oh, my god, one of the biggest lotto guys in the south, or was bug man of the south, a guy named Charles Cato, bless his soul, who used to run a little operation at the corner of Auburn Avenue and Piedmont. Dr. King would go in there and, you know, play the numbers. SHORT: Did he ever win? HOUCK: Occasionally he’d win, occasionally he’d win. But it was something that he would occasionally--he also loved to travel. And a reader, I mean, he’d bring ten books with him when he was on the road. I mean, he would just read, read, read. He was also quite a historian, besides being a biblical scholar. SHORT: Well, you drove the King children to school. Were they enrolled in public schools? HOUCK: When I was driving them, they were. Yolanda went to school at Spring Street Elementary School, which is now the Puppetry Arts Center of Atlanta. And she went on to go to Grady High School. Interestingly enough, two of the children that would ride in the car that I’d pick up and drive them to school with, one was Maria Saporta, who went on to become a columnist here in Atlanta for the Atlanta Journal-Constitution. And another was Eric Roberts, whose sister is now the famous actress out in California, Julia Roberts. And the Roberts family had a theater workshop here for kids, children’s workshop. And Yolanda went to the theater workshop with Julia’s parents, and I was there at the workshop when Julia’s mother was pregnant with her. SHORT: Is that right? You’re going to tell us your age in a minute if you aren’t careful. Did the King children ever talk about racial segregation? HOUCK: Not really. I mean, not in those days. Then of course, since then, you know, but daddy King used to worry quite a bit, by the way, talking about Coretta wanted to know how safe it was--we’re talking about 1966, me driving, a white guy driving four black kids around Atlanta. You know, I mean, obviously they knew that, you know, and went through the process of their father and mother in the movement. Coretta, by the way, was very much a part of the Civil Rights movements. But why they couldn’t get their shoes fit in the same, you know, shoe store as the white kids, why they had to go to a segregated water fountain, all this stuff. Those things happened. But Coretta and Martin made sure that their children had everything that the white kids had and made sure that their household was integrated at all times. And it was. SHORT: How much was she involved in his Civil Rights activities? HOUCK: Coretta was involved every day. I mean, Coretta was an unpaid first lady of the Civil Rights movement. And she did a lot of freedom concerts around the country ; she was a singer. She was an opera singer by training. And so she would do these freedom concerts around the country that raised quite a great amount of money for SCLC. And she was a tenacious fundraiser for the movement, and she didn’t want to leave the kids very often. And by the way, Dr. King and Coretta both took the kids on what they would consider to be safe demonstrations and marches around, of course, in those days what was safe? And so the kids traveled with them extensively as well, and you would see photos of them, for example, when the Montgomery Selma March reached the Capitol in Montgomery in 1965. The kids participated in that march. SHORT: Well, it’s well known that Dr. King fashioned his nonviolent approach on Mahatma Gandhi and his teaching. Did he ever meet Mahatma Gandhi? HOUCK: He did. He was in India. He and Coretta went to India. As a matter of fact, Congressman Lewis and Ambassador Andrew Young just came back from a trip to India last year that retraced the steps of Dr. King and Mrs. King in the late ‘50s. The Kings went to India and spent three weeks. And Martin King III went over there as well with them. And the influence of Gandhi in the household was tremendous. I mean, Gandhi--there were photos of Gandhi around ; there were statues of Gandhi around ; there were writings of Gandhi around. And of course, a great deal of history of Gandhi’s relationship to South Africa was around. So Dr. King was a Gandhian philosopher and bringing together Christianity with that nonviolence. SHORT: His nonviolent approach was not always supported by many Civil Rights activists, particularly among younger ones and Black Power activists. What do you think about that? HOUCK: Dr. King knew that he couldn’t sell his philosophy to everybody or that other people would buy into nonviolence as being the only method in which social justice would take place. For example, he was great friends with Malcolm X, and Malcolm X a lot of people would say would be a black separatist. He was friends with Stokely Carmichael, who really echoed the cry of black power. He was friends across the board with people who didn’t have his own philosophy. He would hope that people would choose to come under the banner of nonviolence in SCLC, but it was in Memphis 1968 that Dr. King--before you could march in Dr. King’s marches or demonstrations that he led or the SCLC led, you had to go to nonviolent workshops. So that would, right then and there take out a lot of people from participating in those things cause they would say " ; well, I’m not going to turn the other cheek, you know, if somebody hits me, I’m going to hit them back.” That’s a hard to do, is to go in there and not have that happen. But in 1968 in Memphis, one of the few demonstrations that Dr. King actually led turned into violence in the streets, and that’s what caused Dr. King to go back in there to put together another demonstration to prove that nonviolence could work as we were organizing the poor people’s campaign in Washington, which was going to be the largest nonviolent demonstration in the nation’s history to build tents in Resurrection City. But one of the worst demonstrations and not just talking about the south, but one of the worst demonstrations that Dr. King ever faced in his life was an open housing demonstration in Chicago. There was a great deal of resentment and hate and hostility in 1966 when King went to Chicago. Then the late Richard J. Daley, mayor of Chicago, didn’t take to having Martin Luther King, Jr. bring his nonviolent end-of-slums and open housing demonstrations to his city. And it was his city. And so it caused a great deal of problems. I think it was one of the few battles that King actually lost, was in Chicago in 1966, and probably one of the most violent demonstrations he ever faced, was going to an open housing demonstration in Gage Park in Chicago in ‘66, when he actually got hit by a rock. SHORT: You were on the march to Washington, weren’t you? HOUCK: I wasn’t in 1963. I was living in Cambridge, Maryland then, still involved with the Civil Rights movement. I had just moved from Cambridge, Maryland to Jacksonville, Florida with my aunt. But, no, I wanted to be there. I was 14, 15 years old at the time. But shortly thereafter, my legs got to moving in marches. SHORT: With Hosea? HOUCK: With Hosea. I met Hosea, by the way, in St. Augustine when I was still in high school. He was in St. Augustine in 1964, which was trying to get public accommodations integrated, and that was in 1964 when I met Hosea and J.T. Johnson and a number of other Civil Rights figures that were down there, Dorothy Cotton, a number of people in the SCLC. That was my first real association with the SCLC. I was in Jacksonville, Florida, where there was really no SCLC chapter but an NAACP chapter, and that’s where I would bring all these white kids every Wednesday night, to the NAACP youth meetings, and from this white high school. SHORT: How did Dr. King – I might have asked you this. But how did he react to these Georgia governors and senators who used him as an issue in their political campaigns? HOUCK: Well, you know, the politician in the King family was daddy King. Daddy King was the politician in the family, and Dr. King didn’t really participate in politics, although in 1960 it was his jailing here in Georgia down in Albany that probably changed the course of the election for John Fitzgerald Kennedy. And daddy King broke with a number of other black leaders here who were supporting Richard Nixon because in Georgia you had essentially a Democratic party, as you well know, that was all white. And the Republicans allowed black folks to participate. So most blacks in the south, and particularly in Georgia, in Atlanta who were registered to vote were Republican. But daddy King split in 1960 with William Holmes Borders, who was another famous black preacher here in Atlanta whose granddaughter is running for mayor of Atlanta. Borders went with Nixon. And King always used to say, daddy King used to say that " ; Borders are always Republicans and they’re going to always be Republican ; they’re going to be Republican no matter what.” And daddy King went for John Kennedy, and that reverberated around the country and probably changed enough votes from black folks in other parts of the country from Nixon to Kennedy, changed the election. But King, daddy King got along with Georgia governors. You know, he’d go up there and he realized that there was segregation and a lot of that wasn’t going to change. But getting certain things done I think is the way he looked at it. I think that in the latter part of the ‘60s, King died in ‘68 now, as you well recall, things began to change rather dramatically. I think that the entire Civil Rights movement was in distress when Lester Maddox was elected governor. I mean, this is a man that came out and shooed people who were wanting to close his restaurant down rather than serve black folks. So I think that, and in later years, I mean, when I was doing talk radio, of course I got to know Lester a little bit better. He always called me Mr. Tom, by the way…Lester. So I got to know him a lot better over the years. You know, I think that he regretted a lot what people saw towards him as what really took place. And of course, George Wallace on his dying bed apologized to the country and the world for saying " ; segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever.” So I think that that dynamic in the Civil Rights movement worked. Unfortunately, Bob, is that too much of what happened in the reformation of white democratic governors in the south is nowadays called the Republican Party in the south. SHORT: Well, you’re probably right. Tell me, was Dr. King ever concerned about the FBI and the government' ; s continual... HOUCK: You know, I knew what you were going to say. He said, " ; You know, as long as they’re around, I’m protected.” And I mean, King used to see the FBI as, you know--people used to say, " ; Well, you’ve got all the tapes of him with women and all this other kind of stuff.” Dr. King knew that his phones were being bugged. Dr. King knew that his mail was being checked. Dr. King knew that they were outside his house. Dr. King knew, and he actually saw that as not a fear because, you know, he kept saying, well, you know, he was trying to do right. He kept saying that with them there, that would keep some of the racists and segregationists away from him. I mean, amazingly enough. SHORT: Well, Tom, I know you’ve been asked this question hundreds of times, but I must ask it for the sake of keeping our interviews authentic. HOUCK: Absolutely. SHORT: Was Dr. King the lady’s man he’s been accused of being? HOUCK: No more or less than you, Bob. SHORT: Then I guess the answer is no. HOUCK: What’s that old saying? Those who know don’t say and those who say don’t know. SHORT: All right. Well, you understand I had to ask you that question. Let’s talk some more. HOUCK: Well, I had to respond that way. SHORT: You did. You gave a very good response. Let’s talk a little bit more about your role with the SCLC. Tell us about some of the activities that you were involved in during that period. HOUCK: Well, I helped do a lot of different things with SCLC. I was in Birmingham, Alabama in 1966 when we went back to make sure that--after the Voting Rights of 1965 a lot of places still didn’t want to register black voters. And they wouldn’t add additional voter registrars. They wouldn’t add additional days or hours, and there were thousands of black people all across the south that wanted to register to vote because it was going to be their first time to register to vote. So what we had to do is we had to keep up the vigilance of making sure that these cities and towns would register people to vote. Well, Birmingham, which shouldn’t be a surprise to many people, continued its policies of basically allowing black voters or black potential voters only in on three days of the week, two hours a day. This is a year after the Voting Rights Act was passed. So we went back to Birmingham in 1966. And my job was to organize and help develop demonstrations with Hosea and with a number of other people, Stoney Cooks who worked in SCLC in those days. Andy would come over. And Dr. King came back to Birmingham and Shuttlesworth and other people, Reverend Gardner. So my job was to get these high school students from Parker High School to the demonstration downtown to block the intersection at 5:00. In those days in Birmingham they didn’t have expressways, they used to have viaducts that led across to the suburbs and these other places. And I went to Parker High School, and my job was to get these kids out to march in the demonstrations, and I broke the lock that had put together this fence in the back. And the Birmingham Police and the notorious police wagon saw me doing this. And here’s a white guy at a black high school doing this, you know, and my job was to get them out of there. Well, in the process they found me later in the day and arrested me and put me in jail, charging me with disturbing the peace, resisting arrest, assaulting an officer, threw the book at me. It was much more dangerous for me--I went to jail probably 18 to 20 times in the Civil Rights movement, but it was always more dangerous for me to be put in jail for my own life because I was a white guy that wasn’t put in jail with the brothers ; I was put in jail with white folks, those same white folks out there that couldn’t stand seeing a white nigger lover, you know, come into their town. It wasn’t nice. It wasn’t pretty. But after Birmingham, after this incidence, it was a very bad incidence that occurred there. I was in jail for almost 30 hours. Hosea and I filed suit against Birmingham, Jefferson County, and the law to desegregate the jails. And that lawsuit wound its way through the state courts in Alabama. Of course, they rejected the notion of desegregation of the jail, went to the federal court, and Frank Johnson in Montgomery who favored us, but the Alabama Attorney General tried to overturn that. Went all the way to the Supreme Court. So one of the most famous cases that I was involved in was Houck and Williams v. Birmingham Jefferson County to desegregate the jails ; it went all the way to the Supreme Court, which made it happen. SHORT: And you won. HOUCK: We won. SHORT: Who was your attorney? HOUCK: Well, two attorneys: Howard Moore, who represented Julian Bond’s brother-in-law, and Charles Morgan, Jr., who has just recently passed away, a very good friend of both of ours for years. SHORT: That’s right. Chuck was a great man. HOUCK: He was a great man. SHORT: Tell us a little bit about Chuck. HOUCK: Chuck was a man of great courage. Born in Birmingham and became a fierce advocate for civil liberties and became a wealthy lawyer actually when he was in Birmingham, came from a wealthy family in Birmingham. And he spoke out loudly and very affirmatively in Birmingham after Dr. King wrote his letter and after the demonstrations happened in Birmingham, after the kids were part of the demonstrations out there, where the kids were fire-hosed and brutalized very badly. And he came out and basically wrote his own letter to his Birmingham fellow white citizens, and they gave him a resounding " ; get the hell out of town," ; ultimately winding up in Atlanta where he became the regional director of the ACLU and was heading up the ACLU voting rights project in the south. Went on to represent a number of people. One of his most famous cases I would imagine would be Mohammed Ali. And he was successful in representing Mohammed Ali, the champ. He went on to Washington to live and died in Destin, Florida not too long ago. SHORT: Right. HOUCK: Great champion of civil liberties. SHORT: I want to ask you this question now… HOUCK: And a good friend, by the way, of our old friend, Zell Miller. SHORT: Is he your old friend? Does that mean you’re not longer his friend? HOUCK: Old friend. I’m just putting that in quotes. Miller will always be my friend. You helped introduce me to Miller. Miller goes back in Civil Rights history as well. You know, Miller worked with Bob, and Lester Maddox. And between 1968 and 1974, there was a dramatic 380, well, not 380, 350 in Miller’s political philosophy. And it was one that changed the political face of Georgia politics under Sonny Perdue was elected republican. And Miller was very instrumental in making that happen by putting together a coalition in this state of black folks, women--he came up for the Equal Rights Amendment. That was a very radical thing to do back in the 1970s. And put together a coalition of black folks, low-income white folks, mountain folks, folks from down in South Georgia below the line, and women. And he beat a woman and he beat Max Cleland, who was a war hero at that point, a triple amputee coming back here and running for politics for the first time. We were successful in making Miller Lieutenant Governor. The only time I’ve ever worked in government in my life was working three months after Miller got elected in 1975, and it convinced me that I never wanted to do it again. SHORT: Why? HOUCK: Miller. Even though he and I were on the same page, there was a tornado that took place here. It hit the governor’s mansion. I was down at the Capitol. It was about 7:00 in the morning, and I commandeered the state helicopter. Do you remember this? And I was giving radio reports to WSB and WGST and in those days, there were a lot more news stations around town. And Miller heard me on the radio and said " ; what in the hell are you doing up there? How’d you get there?” He took me…I mean, he didn’t speak to me for three days. Didn’t fire me, but didn’t speak to me for three days. SHORT: Well, my question was if Dr. King had not become the voice of the Civil Rights movement… HOUCK: I wouldn’t be here. SHORT: …who would have? HOUCK: That would be a hard question to answer. I doubt you and I would be sitting here talking today had Dr. King not become that leader of the Civil Rights movement because what that did, that made Atlanta the center of this Civil Rights movement and was changed so much so because of King. I mean, King was obviously not the only person, I mean, there were a lot of people that were out there. But he was the leader of the massive movement from 1955 until his assassination in 1968. Atlanta became ground zero for that movement. Had it not been for Dr. King, SNCC probably wouldn’t have been founded. SNCC actually was founded under SCLC’s auspices. But had Dr. King not been from Atlanta and had not led the movement from Atlanta, based in Atlanta, Andy Young wouldn’t be here. Tom Houck wouldn’t be here. Joe Lowry wouldn’t be here. We could go on and on. There’d be no Hosea Feed the Hungry because Hosea Williams wouldn’t be here. I mean, John Lewis wouldn’t be here ; Julian Bond probably would be here because he was an academic. But he probably wouldn’t be the president of the NAACP, the chairman of the NAACP today. So much happened because King was where he was and that movement he led. And it changed the whole equation of the city of Atlanta to bringing Maynard Jackson back from selling encyclopedias to running for mayor to the succession of him and Andy Young and the young Bill Campbells of the world from Raleigh that wanted to come to Atlanta to Shirley Franklin that left Washington, D.C. to come to Atlanta. Atlanta became a magnet for young black thoughts and minds. SHORT: Let’s go to 1973, the year that the city charter was changed. There was an election, and it was the first time that black Atlanta had an opportunity to elect the public officials. Do you remember that year? HOUCK: I sure do. As a matter of fact, I had just come back from registering 18-year-olds to vote, and I decided that I was heady enough after several million dollars in heading up a staff of about a hundred people around the country to register 18-year-olds only to vote in minor numbers and seeing Richard Nixon pull off a 49-state sweep over George McGovern. And I had just come back to Atlanta, and I ran for the board of Aldermen, pretty much an all-white district here in Atlanta. But I remember then that Maynard Jackson decided that he was going to challenge Sam Massell. Sam Massell himself in 1969, after Ivan Allen, was very split because a lot of white people that supported Sam Massell, I mean supported Ivan Allen were more of the blue blood north side type that were not for Sam Massell. Sam Massell was Atlanta’s first Jewish mayor. And what happened was Massell came into power and probably made a few missteps along the way, including the police chief, John Inman, and it created quite a controversy in town and pushed Maynard Jackson into the race. Maynard Jackson had been vice mayor under Ivan Allen, I mean under Sam Massell. It was a very heady time. Maynard Jackson was a very strong figure, a very--when he would walk in a room, people would turn around and take a look at him, not just because he was 325 pounds and six-feet-three, but because he had that charisma. And he put together the first major organization. Now, Leroy Johnson had been elected prior to that and Q.B. Williamson was on the Board of Aldermen here. But this was the first time that you were going to see substantive change in black political power flex its muscle. And it wasn’t a very good campaign. I mean, it was a very hard fought campaign. In the end Sam Massell was running ads, which I think he regrets to this day, about Atlanta being a city too young to die and having tumbleweed go down Peachtree Street in his ads. SHORT: But the City Council was elected that year also, and as I recall there were--except for Q.B. Williamson--the first black members in many, many years. HOUCK: There were several black members elected that year, three or four, one including a friend of ours, James George Bond was elected ; Julian Bond’s brother was elected. There were three other elected: Jim Maddox, who is retiring now after all those years, was elected city council that year. And there was a new, if you will, a changing face of city hall, and not just because there were black folks now holding city seats but because there was a feeling that for the first time there was going to be affirmative action and that city hall would be a place where black folks would be welcome. SHORT: You’ve been an insider with every Atlanta mayor since Maynard in 1974. If you will, give us a thumbnail sketch of each of them and what you think they accomplished. HOUCK: Well, I think Maynard obviously, as the first black mayor of Atlanta, was the person that really set in motion a mechanism and machinery to help other blacks get elected and also to, in many ways, show that a black could be mayor. He had a tumultuous relationship with the business community ; but he was proven correct when he said he was going to build a new airport under budget and on time. So his successes were in the economic development area and in jobs in Atlanta and in many ways making folks who had felt left out and left behind in government feel a part of government. Then Andy Young came in after Maynard had really plowed a whole new area of political changes. And Andy really came to a position where he put Atlanta on the map internationally. Delta started to fly more internationally during that time. Andy had a good relationship with the--Maynard did not have a really great relationship with the media, but Andy did. I think when Andy came in, one of the first things he ever said was, " ; You know, you can fight with the media, you can fight with the Constitution, the Journal, you know ; he said you’re not going to get anywhere, they buy ink by the barrel.” And that was his philosophy. You know, so Andy kind of got along with everybody. And Shirley Franklin, who is now the mayor, really in many ways, ran the city under Andy. She was in charge of things. And Andy traveled quite a bit. But if it hadn’t been for Andy Young, in 1996 we would not have had the Olympic Games. So the Olympics really, in terms of legacy and putting Atlanta into the international mode, was Andy’s legacy. Now, after Andy was elected two terms, Maynard came back, Maynard came back, and I think people wish now that Maynard didn’t come back because he really didn’t move in that second, call it Maynard one, Maynard two, that second term, and he decided he wasn’t going to run again. But he anointed a young city council member who was his floor leader, William Craig Campbell. And Bill decided that he was going to have a different kind of legacy. Unfortunately, one of his legacies is he went to jail. But I think what people would say now in Atlanta is that Atlantic Station wouldn’t be here today had it not been for Bill Campbell. You wouldn’t have had a lot of the development downtown. He set in motion the kinds of things that now have brought 100,000 new people into Atlanta in the last nine years. He also hired a woman named Renee Glover to head up the Atlanta Housing Authority, which has become a model in the country in terms of bringing together mixed income groups and tearing down the housing projects that used to be a place of last resort to becoming a place where recidivism and crime was breeding. And then Shirley Franklin came in after Bill Campbell, and for eight years now Shirley’s been mayor. She says that she’s not worried about her legacy, so I guess I shouldn’t be. But I think if you want to take a look at Shirley’s legacy, she has been the brick-by-brick mayor. She has been the sure mayor. She has been the person that has helped put the infrastructure back into place, but she’s also been the mayor in many ways that has found in the last two or three years crime, whether it’s for real or not becoming more violent in the city, and unfortunately for her the economic crisis in the country has brought about police furloughs and a lot of firing of city employees. I think Shirley will probably come away looking pretty good after eight years. You’ve got to mention one more time that you’re in the historic Manuel’s Tavern, a place that Zell Miller, Jimmy Carter, great Georgia politicians, republicans and democrats, Sonny Perdue comes for lunch here, okay? I mean, this really is an institution. SHORT: It is. Very historical place. Manuel was a very historical person. HOUCK: He was. SHORT: Why don’t you tell us about Manuel Maloof? HOUCK: Manny Maloof, he grew up in Atlanta. He grew up in a section of Atlanta right now not too far from Turner Field in a neighborhood that was the ethnic part of Atlanta where the Lebanese and Jews and Greeks lived next door to each other in Atlanta. And back in 1956 he opened up a 12 to 15-stool bar and just sold beer, which is a dry cleaning store prior to that, and called it " ; Manuel’s" ; . And he always had a love for politics and, being a Lebanese, had a desire to make it over here in the new country. He became very early on involved in the political situation in Atlanta. I didn’t meet him until 1967. People told me that this guy voluntarily integrated the bars in Atlanta before other bars were integrated here and that this was a place the political figures in Atlanta came to. And so in 1967 when I met him, Manuel had already well-established himself here, as Carl Sanders would come through here, Jimmy Carter would come through here, Bob Short would come through here. You know, in those days he just still served beer. But he became a rational political force in Atlanta. People would come to Manuel’s, particularly journalists. And so this became the media hangout. So this became the media and the political hangout. So you’d have all of the folks that, you know, had their notepads and would come in. Paul Hemphill was a well know columnist here in Atlanta that came here. And so Manuel’s became the place to be in the late ‘60s and has held on to the position for more than 40 years as if you’re going to get elected in Atlanta you’ve got to come through Manuel’s, and you need to have a party here, shake hands here, or be seen here, and in the old days drinking beer, but in these days I guess you would have an iced tea. And Manuel went on to become an elected official in the south. He became chairman of the DeKalb County Commission. He was always perceived as being a very frugal man. I don’t think anybody ever got a free beer from here. Somebody that was always willing to, in his own way, give his opinion, and you may have disagreed with his opinion and oftentimes if you disagreed with his position he’d say " ; Get the hell out of here.” But by and large, you know, he was a man bigger than life, and his name will live on, you know, more than just in DeKalb County, but as a political institution in the city. SHORT: You mentioned that you had campaigned for Zell Miller in 1974 for lieutenant governor. In 1990 when he ran for governor, one of his opponents was Andrew Young. Who were you for? HOUCK: That’s a very interesting thing. Jimmy Carter probably wouldn’t be elected today had Andy Young and Zell Miller not run against each other. And I was on the radio luckily in those days, and I did one of the debates actually in 1990 between Andy and Zell. I think it was on Channel 5 here. I had encouraged Andy to run, not thinking Zell was going to run. And when they both ran against each other, I was fortunately in a position of being on the radio. But I guess you would have to say that I supported Andy. But I would put it to you this way: It was a civil campaign, and it was a good campaign. Miller had two interesting people running his campaign that went on to great fame. James Carville and Paul Begalla. Miller had them on his side. Andy had on his side George Stephanopoulos, Frank Greer, Mandy Greenwaltd who went on to the Whitehouse, and the chief of staff now in the United States for the United States President Obama, Rahm Emanuel. Rahm Emanuel used to go to Andy every day and get him to make phone calls to raise funds. Rahm became the fundraiser. Well, all of these folks that ran Miller’s campaign and ran Young’s campaign came together to elect Jimmy Carter president in 1992. So if it hadn’t been for Andy Young, I think it was Andy Young who--I mean, it was Zell Miller who introduced Carville to Bill Clinton. And I can remember the day after Miller was elected. That day he invited us all to come by, and Carville explained how the whole thing unraveled and said what a gentleman Andrew Young had been in his graceful endorsement of Miller in campaigning for Miller for the election in 1990 after he had lost. SHORT: Two of your good friends are good friends of mine: John Lewis and Julian Bond. You were very close to both of them. Tell us a little about each. HOUCK: Well, Mr. Lewis is an old and dear friend who I actually met in Cambridge, Maryland when I was 15 years old. And he was chairman of the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee. He’s a very serious man. He’s a man of great integrity. He’s a man that believes firmly that the American dream still must live on, that you must keep your eyes on the prize. He has become an icon. Time Magazine one time called him a living saint. Well, Mr. Lewis isn’t quite a living saint as much as a friend that he is to the nation, but he is a man of integrity. He’s a man of great honesty and compassion. You know, he truly believes in a beloved community at peace with itself. And he has taken that throughout his entire life. Probably there wasn’t any major figure in the Civil Rights movement that had been as many times to jail or beaten as John Lewis. Julian Bond, on the other hand, well, besides having James as his brother, he’s a pretty decent guy. I mean, James is wonderful…wonderful family. His father is a great academic man, his mother a wonderful literary person and a sweetheart. But Julian, everybody in Atlanta thought after Julian was elected in kind of a disputed election in 1966 that they thought Julian Bond would be the congressman from Atlanta, the first black congressman from Atlanta. Well, as we know, it became Andrew Young. But when Andrew Young became ambassador to the U.N. and there wound up being an election between John Lewis and Julian Bond, which luckily again I was doing talk radio so we had to keep a fairly neutral position in that whole thing, although Lillian Lewis and John Lewis didn’t think so. And I wound up not actually talking with John for about a year after the election, and Lillian maybe longer. But I think Julian in many ways he was the intellectual side of the political equation. He would have been a great congressman, there’s no question about it. John is, too. But, I mean, I think Julian would have been a great congressman. As chance has it, you know, he went on to Washington. He ran, as you well know. He ran for president and lost in the primary, but he ran. He was nominated for vice president and was too young in Chicago in 1968. He is a person of words. He’s a wordsmith. Whereas John is a man of emotion, Julian is a wordsmith man. He went on, after his life in Georgia, went on to become chairman of the NAACP, a position he still holds. SHORT: Let’s get back for just a minute to the Civil Rights movement. After the death of Dr. King and the passage of several Supreme Court decisions against segregation and the passage of the Civil Rights and Voting Act, has the movement been pronounced dead? HOUCK: No. And I want to go back to something quickly here in terms of talking about the south. You asked earlier a question about how Dr. King and others perceived white politicians in the south, and I mentioned Ivan Allen and Charlie Weltner as an example. If it hadn’t been for white male judges in the south between 1955 and 1968, the movement would have been dead. I mean, the white judges in the south in that period of time from the ‘50s through the ‘90s were real heroes in this country, and many of them appointed by the way by Eisenhower, which was a republican president. But going back to what you were saying about--what was that question again? SHORT: Whether or not the movement… HOUCK: Is dead. Well, the movement is--yeah, I mean, obviously. You know, you’re not going to do--as much as people want to get people marching again, getting people out in the streets again, the tea baggers have it these days. I mean, it’s a movement that continues to exist. You know, the dream lives on and will never die. It’s just different tactics and different times. Marchers were right. Marchers were absolutely correct in the ‘50s and ‘60s in this country. They brought about the change. Nonviolence was right as a tactic in those days. It brought about the change. Today there are different kinds of techniques and tactics. I mean, you’re not organizing like labor had to do in the ‘30s and the ‘40s and the ‘50s. And the picket line is not the same thing today as it was many years ago. So a Civil Rights movement per se, a new generation is coming along and in many ways that new generation is going to lead us into a different kind of movement than we have today. The election last year of Barack Obama in many ways is that new direction. And unfortunately in the south, you know, only 10 to 15 percent of whites voted for Obama. But around the rest of the country and the overall vote was very encouraging. You had more than 40 percent of whites in America to vote for a black man for president, one with the name of Barack Hussein Obama. So, I mean, there are many differences that are taking place in terms of the movement of the country. We have a hell of a lot of work to do in the south though, Bob. And I don’t think it’s a movement that can be brought about by mass demonstrations or boycotts or those kinds of things anymore. It has to take place in a change of heart. And that change of heart is still very difficult to come by in terms of many white politicians. And as I said earlier, you know, those courageous democrats in this country in the ‘60s and early ‘70s, many of them have died, have grayed or frayed or moved on. And I want to see a new breed of those folks that can come up here and can give leadership. SHORT: Do you think there’s anybody out there who could fill Dr. King’s shoes? HOUCK: By the way, I want to say this, too: Two white southerners were the only two democrats we had as president before we had a black African-American president. SHORT: Okay. Now can you answer my question? Can you see anyone out there who could fill Dr. King’s shoes? HOUCK: I’m sure there will be someday, but probably not in my lifetime. I think Barack Obama to many today is what King was to many people of his era, particularly young blacks. And young whites as well, which I think the young whites and young blacks across the country see the hope and the dream in Barack Obama that they saw in the days of Martin Luther King. Was my excitement level as high with Barack Obama being elected President of the United States as it was working for Dr. King and driving him around, listening to his speeches and his sermons? No, I wasn’t. But I’m saying it today: There are many, many people around this country and around the world that take new hope and inspiration in Barack Obama. So, I mean, it’s a different kind of leadership. It’s a different kind of time. It’s a different kind of movement than it was back in the ‘60s, ‘70s, and ‘80s. Will we ever know another Herman Talmadge in Georgia? I don’t think so. I don’t think that Johnny Isakson or--what’s his name--Chambliss can possibly tie the shoes of a Herman Talmadge. Herman Talmadge may have been a racist and segregationist, but he was the father of the food stamps. I mean, it was little things like that that these southern politicians did in their own ways in their own days. SHORT: Let’s talk a minute about the assassination of Dr. King and his funeral in Atlanta. Where were you when that happened? HOUCK: I was actually in Knoxville, Tennessee. I had been in Memphis on April 1st, and Dr. King had then announced that he was going back to Atlanta and then coming back to Memphis to speak and lead this rallying demonstration. And my job was in the poor people’s campaign, which we were organizing. Memphis was in the middle of--it was really a diversion in the poor people’s campaign. We weren’t scheduled to go to Memphis. The sanitation workers went on strike. Labor, which was very much a part of the Civil Rights movement and very much a part of resurrection city and the March on Washington, the poor people’s march on Washington, really pushed Dr. King to go to Memphis against the wishes of many people, including Andy Young. But what happened was I was in Knoxville, Tennessee with a guy named Ernie Austin who was from Kentucky. And what we did was we were organized, we were speaking with the Tennessee council on human relations actually the night of the 4th to try to get them to get poor white folks involved in the Poor People’s Campaign. What we were trying to do was bring together Hispanics, bring together Native Americans, bring together poor white folks all to march together in Washington with black folks. The first real rainbow coalition. So my job was to talk to the folks. And as I was going to the meeting at 6:00 in Knoxville, I can remember to this day, and I heard this kid yell out in the street, “Martin Luther King’s been shot, Martin Luther King’s been shot…” and I thought this kid is going to cause some trouble here in the street saying that kind of stuff. And then I get to the church and find out that indeed Dr. King had been shot. And I had called the house ; and I got Ms. Lockhart, who was the housekeeper, on the telephone. And she told me that Coretta was getting ready to go to the airport, that Mayor Ivan Allen was coming to the house and picking her up and taking her to the airport. And I said, " ; well, do you think I should come back?” She said " ; Yes.” I made several other calls, and I came back to Atlanta. We found out shortly after that Dr. King had passed. And for the next 48 hours essentially I didn’t get any sleep at all. I came back, and I organized the transportation for the funeral. But the mood in Atlanta was very interesting. While there were riots all over the country, Atlanta was relatively calm. And it was an eerie calm. As you recall, the day of the funeral, probably one of the biggest overreactions that Lester Maddox ever had in his political career was ringing the State Capitol with state troopers, which was certainly not necessary. It was overkill. The City of Atlanta remained peaceful for those six days between Dr. King’s assassination and that funeral. And the mood of this town, black and white, southerners and non-southerners and the people that flocked here, was to be as helpful as they possibly could be in giving a sendoff for King. SHORT: Well, after your Civil Rights days, you became a talking head on the radio. HOUCK: Yeah. SHORT: How did you ever come to that decision? HOUCK: Naturally. I mean, I was vaccinated with a microphone. No, I mean, really I think what happened was the first time I really became interested in doing talk--as a kid, I’d pretend I was doing the Tonight Show under my blankets. I was an 8, 9 year-old kid. I mean, I always wanted to get in radio. I always wanted to be a part of radio. And I started writing a column for Atlanta Magazine and for the Atlanta Gazette called The Tattler. And the Tattler sort of was a political column and was also kind of like a gossip column. And this was back in 1976, ‘77. And I was at a basketball game, a Hawks basketball game. A guy named Mike Wheeler went on to be one of the founders of HBO, was head of GST at the time, WGST Radio. And he asked me if I would put that Tattler on the radio every morning, and I said I’d love to do it. So he asked me to come on ; so I started doing commentary for GST in ‘77. And that led to a talk show, part of it hosted by me and another part of it hosted by me and Dick Williams, who was a well-known star. And another part of it brought Neil Boortz back into the business, and he was my counterpoint for about three or four months. It was either he was going to kill me or I was going to kill him. But Boortz was part of the show. I actually brought him back to radio. If he sees this interview: Boortz needs to give me part of his salary for life. But at any rate, that’s how I got into it. And then it evolved really big time in 1981 when Maynard Jackson was mayor. And there was the missing and murdered children of Atlanta, a terrible tragedy here where weeks and weeks went by and there were many children that were killed. And I did a nightly show, which was sort of like before Nightline, and that’s when I got really into talk radio big time and everybody in town had to listen to this. As a matter of fact, I think Wayne Williams, who was the accused killer and convicted killer of a couple of these kids, his parents were slapped with an injunction for calling my radio show. So I became big time during that period. SHORT: And then you were on television? HOUCK: Well, about that same time over at Channel 2, Andy Fisher, who was the then news director at Channel 2, WSB TV, put together a little talking heads show on Sunday called Sunday News Conference. So he put together me, Dick Williams, a fellow named Bill Ship, and Rick Allen. And we were hosted at that point by a preacher, Ron Sailor, who was a black commentator over there. We continued over there at Channel 2 for several years until a conflict arose between an opinionated news political reporter, Bill Nigut, and Ron Sailor. And that’s when we moved our show to Channel 36. But it became kind of like the Sunday morning thing to do, would be like to listen to Tom Houck and Dick Williams go at each other and Bill Shipp try to sort of moderate it. And Rick Allen being sort of the more moderate person over there. But we had great fun doing it. I did it for 20 years. SHORT: Twenty years? HOUCK: Left in 2001. SHORT: You’re not doing any of that anymore? HOUCK: Every once in a while. Every once in a while I’ll do something on CNN or I’ll do something on MSNBC or something, but not on a regular basis. I’m writing my book. SHORT: Tell us about your book. HOUCK: The book is a lot of what we talked about right here. I hope that it will be out within the next couple of years. I ran into Doug Blackmon the other day, who’s the Wall Street Journal bureau chief here. He’s written a Pulitzer Prize winning book called " ; Slavery by Another Name" ; . So I said, " ; Doug, how long did it take you to write your book?” He said " ; Seven years.” I said, " ; well, I’ve got three more years to go maybe" ; but I hope to have it out within the next couple of years. It basically travels that memoir road of how that little scrappy kid from Boston wound up in the household of the Kings and what all happened and occurred during that time with great insights that I don’t think other people have ever written about regarding the King family and the Civil Rights movement. SHORT: I’m anxious to read it. You’ve always been a loyal democrat. What has happened to the Democratic Party in Georgia? HOUCK: Well, I could say two words--Bobby Kahn--but I won’t. That’s terrible. But, well, I think a lot of things have happened. I think that the party had its problem with the national party. I think that, you know, leaders like Zell Miller have gone from being liberal to moderate to conservative, and that’s happened with a number of other people in this state. Miller I guess right now has come full circle. He started off conservative, then he went to a liberal, then he went to a moderate, then he went back to conservative. So he’s made a complete switch. So, I mean, a lot of those guys out there like Miller, you know, have become republicans. And the general assembly and the governor’s office--well, the governor’s office for the first time went, as you well know seven years ago, to a republican. There is not a Tom Murphy that can bring together the various forces, and he actually gerrymandered himself out of being reelected many years ago. I mean, that was the kind of guy he was. But Murphy was able to bring the rural and urban folks together, and the Democratic Party in the state of Georgia even after the Civil Rights bill was more of a club than a philosophy. And so as a club, they could organize under the name democrat, but it didn’t have to keep one specific philosophy. So they didn’t have to be in the national party. So we continued to elect democrats as President, democrats to the Senate and I think probably it really came down when the national movement in this country, abortion and a lot of the far right-wing causes, finally crept in. And those people that called themselves democrats really aligned themselves closer to the Republican National Party. And that’s how we lost a lot of that. But I blame Bobby Kahn for losing that election. I think Roy Barnes could have beat Sonny Perdue eight years ago had Bobby Kahn not been the campaign manager. I don’t mind saying that either, by the way. And I think if Bobby Kahn is in the race this year, okay, with Roy Barnes, I think Roy, I think he would get defeated again. I think this guy’s a loser. SHORT: If you had the power, Tom, how would you fix these problems? HOUCK: Make sure Bobby Kahn doesn’t get involved. I mean, how would I fix these problems? I would campaign like Roy Barnes is beginning to campaign. I would try to bring together around common purpose and common goals some of the things that Barnes is talking about in terms of education, in terms of dealing with resources and water, in terms of dealing with the non-controversial big issues that affect us on an everyday basis--the economy, jobs, those kinds of things, education. I think that that’s one of the first things you have to do. Then I think what you have to take a look at is that race is still a factor, and it divides too many people in this state. But the state is changing. I mean, it’s changing dramatically. The Hispanic that lives in Gwinnett County or lives in Cherokee County or lives in Spalding County or Paulding County or lives up in Hall County or those that live up in Dalton, Georgia, those folks aren’t voting, but their kids will. And when that happens within ten years, we can begin to see a new dynamic in this state in a larger Hispanic vote coming together with the black vote and the progressive white vote, which I think is the future of the Democratic Party in this state. I think there will be sufficient numbers then to be able to turn back the red tide in Georgia. So I think that we may not be able to turn it around in the next four or eight years, but I think that there’s going to be a new coalition of democrats here within the near future that’s going to substantially change the--I think we’ll see more democrats elected after this next census than we have right now. I think the Democratic Party, it needs a vibrant leader in the top, not to blast Jane Kidd who I like and respect very much from Athens. I mean, she’s a good lady. But we don’t have the dynamism. We don’t have the force out there of somebody that can really bring people together. And we lost eight years of organization because when Bobby Kahn was executor or director of the Democratic Party of Georgia, what he did was not organize those house districts and those house seats out there ; all he did was try to organize against Sonny Perdue. So we lost house seats. We lost senator’s seat. We didn’t have any organization out there, and we had no funds out there. So we had to get the funding together, needed to get the organization together, and I think we needed to come up with a dynamic leader. If Roy Barnes is elected governor in the next year, I think the Democratic Party would be well on its way to getting its house back in order. SHORT: It’s been said that the republicans defeat the democrats in Georgia because they have what they call a better bench, which means that they train their candidates, they carefully select their candidates. HOUCK: Well, do you think John Linder is a good bench? SHORT: I can’t pass judgment. HOUCK: But do you think that Dr. Price is a good bench? SHORT: I can’t pass--you know, I’m like you in that Miller-Young race and that Bond-John Lewis, I plead--I’m what Marvin Griffith would call a " ; tweensy." ; HOUCK: I don’t think they’ve got a good bench ; I think that what they have been having is they’ve--with Ralph Reed and others--you know, Ralph Reed lost his election here. SHORT: He did, yes. HOUCK: That philosophy, okay, that was originated back under Richard Nixon back over there from our old friend Lee Atwater in South Carolina has really ruled the south for the last 40 years. And I think what Lyndon Johnson said to Richard Russell was correct, that after he came out and voted for the Voting Rights Act and voted for the Civil Rights bill of ‘64 and ‘65, he told Richard Russell we’ve lost the next 50 years of democrats. But that 50 years is almost up. SHORT: Exactly, exactly. Tom, you’re certainly an interesting gentleman. I’ve enjoyed talking with you. Is there anything that we haven’t talked about that you would like to talk about? HOUCK: No. I think that James is hungry and that Harold over there looks like he needs to eat something. Look, I would like to say that I hope that whatever happens in the election in Atlanta this year, that this city continues to grow and prosper, and I think it will. I think that, you know, the talk of having a white woman elected mayor of Atlanta is a possibility. I don’t put that aside. I think that we’ve come a long way though from 1973 to 2009. And if there is a white mayor this time in Atlanta, which would turn the clock of history either back or forward, depending on what your viewpoint would be, I think that it would not be the end all of the progressive aspects of this city. I think that even if Lisa Borders or Kasim Reed gets elected, that it’s time for the changing of the guard at city hall, so to speak. And I think that no matter who’s elected, that’s what you have to look at. You have to look at a new Atlanta. 100,000 folks have moved here in the last five years. That’s a lot of people to come into this town. Atlanta has a lot of new young blood. We need to tap into that. SHORT: Thank you, Tom Houck. Resources may be used under the guidelines described by the U.S. Copyright Office in Section 107, Title 17, United States Code (Fair use). Parties interested in production or commercial use of the resources should contact the Russell Library for a fee schedule. video 0 RBRL220ROGP-087.xml RBRL220ROGP-087.xml http://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL220ROGP/findingaid http://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL220ROGP-087/findingaid
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Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
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Interview with Tom Houck, September 28, 2009
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RBRL220ROGP-087
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Tom Houck
Bob Short
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video
oral histories
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Political activists
Civil rights
Civil rights demonstrations
United States--Civil rights
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Thomas Houck dropped out of high school at age 15 and joined the Southern Christian Leadership Conference to work under Hosea Williams. In 1965, he met Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., at a meeting of the SCLC, and in 1966 he came to Atlanta and became the King family’s personal driver. Later, he became an organizer for the SCLC, and was active in numerous demonstrations and marches. His case, Houck and Williams vs. Birmingham-Jefferson County, led to the desegregation of Southern jails. Houck went on to help campaign for various Atlanta mayors and governors, including Maynard Jackson and Zell Miller, and started doing commentary for WGST Radio. Houck discusses his work with the SCLC, some personal experiences with the King family, his work on various campaigns, and the state of party politics in Georgia.
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2009-09-28
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http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
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Georgia
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moving image
OHMS
-
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Reflections on Georgia Politics Oral History Collection
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Georgia--History
Georgia--Politics and government
Politics and Public Policy
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The Reflections on Georgia Politics Oral History Collection consists of interviews with politically prominent Georgians conducted by Bob Short from 2006 to 2016. Interviewees include former governors, members of both the U.S. and Georgia Congresses, secretaries of state, lobbyists, journalists, lawyers, activists, and relatives of prominent politicians. Included with these oral histories are a few public programs recorded at Young Harris College in 2006-2007. Most interviews were recorded in the homes and offices of interviewees or in the Bob Short Oral History Studio at the University of Georgia. The conversations cover many topics at the intersection of politics and public life in modern Georgia, with a particular strength in gubernatorial contests, the Civil Rights movement, reapportionment, the development of Atlanta, the rise of the Republican party in Georgia, political journalism, and the interaction between religion and politics.<br /><br /><a href="http://georgiaoralhistory.libs.uga.edu/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=&range=&collection=9&type=&tags=OHMS&featured=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">View all OHMS indexed interviews in this collection here. </a>
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Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
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Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Date
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2006-2016
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http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
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Oral histories
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RBRL220ROGP
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Georgia
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
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https://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL220ROGP-088/ohms
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5.3 Interview with Willie Bolden, October 7, 2009 RBRL220ROGP-088 RBRL220ROGP Reflections on Georgia Politics Oral History Collection ROGP 088 Interview with Willie Bolden finding aid Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies, University of Georgia Willie Bolden Bob Short 1:|17(11)|25(1)|31(4)|39(2)|47(8)|56(9)|64(10)|73(1)|81(12)|92(1)|101(16)|111(3)|119(14)|127(2)|135(9)|146(11)|155(15)|164(6)|173(5)|182(10)|191(1)|200(3)|209(16)|219(5)|231(1)|238(15)|248(13)|257(9)|266(2)|274(7)|281(13)|292(3)|302(5)|310(2)|318(9)|328(8)|335(10)|344(14)|350(8)|358(8)|366(9)|375(4)|382(7)|392(3)|400(1)|408(12)|418(1)|427(6)|436(12)|446(6)|456(2)|463(12)|470(12)|479(9)|489(5)|496(11)|512(10)|519(15)|527(5)|534(13)|542(1)|552(3)|561(7)|571(2)|580(5)|587(6)|594(2)|601(7)|610(8)|623(16)|640(4)|644(9)|651(4)|661(8)|669(5)|680(8)|688(5)|703(13)|714(4) 0 http://youtu.be/b-YhUbJek0o Kaltura video < ; iframe id=" ; kaltura_player" ; src=" ; https://cdnapisec.kaltura.com/p/1727411/sp/172741100/embedIframeJs/uiconf_id/26879422/partner_id/1727411?iframeembed=true& ; playerId=kaltura_player& ; entry_id=1_y3qab3sz& ; flashvars[leadWithHTML5]=true& ; flashvars[sideBarContainer.plugin]=true& ; flashvars[sideBarContainer.position]=left& ; flashvars[sideBarContainer.clickToClose]=true& ; flashvars[chapters.plugin]=true& ; flashvars[chapters.layout]=vertical& ; flashvars[chapters.thumbnailRotator]=false& ; flashvars[streamSelector.plugin]=true& ; flashvars[EmbedPlayer.SpinnerTarget]=videoHolder& ; flashvars[dualScreen.plugin]=true& ; & ; wid=1_xjapwsts" ; width=" ; 400" ; height=" ; 285" ; allowfullscreen webkitallowfullscreen mozAllowFullScreen frameborder=" ; 0" ; > ; < ; /iframe> ; English 7 Interview introduction I’m Bob Short. This is Reflections on Georgia Politics sponsored by Young Harris College and the University of Georgia Library. Bob Short introduces Willie Bolden. 17 38 Early life / First involvement in Civil Rights Movement You were born in South Carolina but made your way to Atlanta through Savannah. Bolden talks about his early life in South Carolina and Savannah, Ga. He shares the story of how he met Martin Luther King in a pool room. Bolden mentions how he became involved in the SCLC after hearing Dr. King speak in a church. Ben Clark ; Ft Stewart ; Hosea Williams ; hotel ; Hunter Air Force Base ; Juanita Williams ; marines ; Martin Luther King Jr ; pool hall ; Tomochichi 17 470 Recruitment into the SCLC Now, how I met Dr. King. I met Dr. King in a pool room. 17 1110 First experience in the SCLC What was your first experience in the movement after you joined SCLC? Bolden talks about his first assignments when he first joined the SCLC. He also talks about his time in Albany, Ga and the work he did in voter registration for the African American community in the city. Albany, Ga ; Andrew Young ; CB King ; Martin Luther King ; SCLC ; voter registration 17 1447 Work in Social Circle, Georgia So what happened after Albany? Bolden talks about how he helped two female teachers get their jobs back after being wrongfully fired for an interracial friendship. He recounts the even of Dr King's assassination while he was stationed in Social Circle. assassination ; SCLC National Convention ; Social Circle 17 1763 School integration in Pike County But Social Circle was quite a movement Bolden also talks about his work in Pike County where he helped Dr Glover get his job back on the Atlanta Board of Education. board of education ; canning company ; Dr Glover ; integration ; march ; organization ; Pike County 17 2171 Marks, Mississippi / Poor People Campaign Then later I was assigned to Marks, Mississippi. Bolden talks about the extreme poverty found in Marks, Mississippi. Bolden also talks about how he was the " ; wagon master' in the Poor People's Campaign. I-20 ; Lester Maddox ; Marks, Mississippi ; mule train ; Poor People's campaign ; poverty ; Rawhide ; wagon ; wagon master 17 2684 Integration in St. Augustine, Florida And then later on I was assigned to St. Augustine, Florida. Bolden reflects on his experience in integrating the motels, hotels, and restaurants in St. Augustine, Florida. He mentions the several beatings they went through at the hand of the Klan. Bolden states the significance of the events in Florida because of the passage of the 1964 Civil Rights Bill. beach ; beatings ; Civil Rights Bill ; hotels ; integration ; Ku Klux Klan ; Lyndon B Johnson ; motels ; restaurants 17 2913 Marion, Alabama / Voter registration Marion, Alabama, the night Jimmy Lee Jackson got killed, Dr. King was supposed to go to Marion, Alabama that night because we had just found out that James Orange was arrested and beaten in Marion, Alabama. Bolden recalls the violent even at Marion, Alabama where Jimmy Lee Jackson was killed. Bolden recounts the event when the sheriff stuffed a loaded gun in his mouth and threatened to pull the trigger. Bolden also talks about the SCOPE program where white college students would assist African Americans in voter registration. Alabama ; James Orange ; Jimmy Lee Jackson ; SCOPE ; Selma, Alabama ; Summer Community Organization for Political Education ; violence ; voter registration ; Voters Rights Act 17 3418 Bloody Sunday / Marches in Mississippi So please tell us what happened on the Edmund Pettus Bridge on Bloody Sunday? Bolden recounts the details of Bloody Sunday in Selma, Alabama. He mentioned how the events on that day helped the passage of the 1965 Voter's Right Act. Bolden also talks about the marches he participated in in Mississippi. Bloody Sunday ; Edmund Pettus Bridge ; Grenada ; Ku Klux Klan ; march ; Montgomery, Alabama ; Mound Bayou ; Selma, Alabama ; sheriff ; voter registration 17 3905 Reflections on the Civil Rights Movement If you were asked what future generation should know about the Civil Rights Movement, particularly during the 60's and 70's, what would you say? Bolden shares his opinions on what the future generations should know about the Civil Rights Movement. He mentions how all that they accomplished came at a heavy price, and he encourages young people to become involved with something. Civil Rights Movement ; Dr Abernathy ; Dr King ; education ; James Orange ; John Lewis ; Julian Bond ; Leon Hall ; Lester Hankerson 17 4223 Current issues in the African American community / Closing reflections What do you think are the most important issues facing African Americans today? Bolden talks about the current issues in the African American community. He also talks about the SCLC now. Bolden mentions how his heroes are Martin Luther King, his mother, and his father. Al Sharpton ; black community ; education ; family matters ; health ; Jesse Jackson ; Martin Luther King ; National Urban League ; SCLC 17 oral history BOB SHORT: I' ; m Bob Short. This is Reflections on Georgia Politics sponsored by Young Harris College and the University of Georgia Library. Our guest is Reverend Willie Bolden, who lived through many battles during the Civil Rights Movements alongside Dr. King, an educator, active member of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference, and a well known citizen of Atlanta. Welcome, Reverend Bolden. WILLIE BOLDEN: Thank you. SHORT: You were born in South Carolina but made your way to Atlanta through Savannah. BOLDEN: Right. SHORT: Tell us about your early life. BOLDEN: Okay. And just before starting, I would also like to just for emphasis say that I' ; m the pastor of the Pilgrim Missionary Baptist Church here in Atlanta, 498 English Avenue. I was born, like you said, in Sumter, South Carolina. My parents decided that they did not want me to grow up on a farm and decided to move to Savannah. When they moved there I was three years old. I understand from my mom that my dad came first and got a job and then three months later after he found some place to stay, he sent for her and for me and that' ; s how we ended up in Savannah, Georgia. I was educated in Savannah. I developed my Christian beliefs in Savannah. I grew up in St. Phillip A.M.E. Church. It' ; s now Martin Luther King Boulevard, but when I was a young boy it was West Broad Street. And it' ; s still there. One of the largest, if not the largest A.M.E. church in Savannah. My involvement in the movement in Savannah came into play -- believe it or not, I was an ex-Marine and I came home and got a job on the waterfront as a longshoreman. And I said to myself, " ; Self, there' ; s got to be a better way to make a living than working on the waterfront." ; But I didn' ; t know exactly what that would be. So I ended up being an assistant bell captain at one of the two plush hotels. In my young days now, there were only two plush hotels in Savannah. The DeSoto Hilton, and it' ; s still there on Oglethorpe Street, and the Manger Hotel. Well, as the assistant bell captain I made money every day. So I had money every day. And my second job was shooting pool. I was a nine ball player. And not just your average nine ball player. I was a real good nine ball player. As a matter of fact, when I see these tournaments on television today I say, " ; Man, if they had that back when I was a young boy I' ; d probably be a millionaire now." ; So that was my other way of making money. But to get involved the movement, every day at 12:00 -- you could set your watch by it -- Hosea Williams would march downtown. There was a park right across the street from the hotel where I work. And there is an Indian Chief statue by the name of Tomochichi. And Hosea would march two or three hundred people every day, Monday through Friday, and where he got these folks from, I couldn' ; t even imagine. But he had them. And he would climb up on Tomochichi and he would talk about the white power structure downtown. And I said one or two things, " ; Either this man is crazy or he' ; s one hell of a organizer." ; Come to find out he was both. Very good friend of mine, but some of the things that Hosea did, it was unbelievable. But I found out that they were going to try to integrate the hotel where I worked. And my job, given to me by the innkeeper, was when the demonstrators come downtown you lock the door. And that' ; s what I did. But when I found out they were coming this particular day, I left the door unlocked and went downstairs. And when I did, the group came in, led by Ben Clark, who was one heck of a organizer, along with some other folk, and they just took over the lobby because they would not let them in the restaurant, nor would they let them check in to the hotel. When they were all arrested then I was summoned to the innkeeper' ; s office and terminated that same day. Now I said, " ; Oh, man, you mean to tell me I lost my job. Man." ; But I lived to find out that that was the best thing that could ever happen to me. And I say that because that same innkeeper who fired me, before it was over, because I got involved with Hosea and the Chatham County Crusade for Voters and we integrated the hotels and motels and the restaurants in Savannah, and that same hotel where I was fired from, Hosea' ; s wife, Juanita Williams and Ben Clark and myself integrated that hotel. And I insisted on the innkeeper who fired me to check me in. And of course we didn' ; t sleep all night. We kept in touch with each other. I wish we had had cell phones back then but cell phones were not the thing. We could just call from room to room to make sure that everybody was all right. I slept with the chair up against the door, not only all the other locks, to make sure that nobody could come in. Didn' ; t feel comfortable sleeping. I think we all went home when we checked out the next day and went to bed and got some sleep. But I enjoyed being able to check into that hotel that terminated me. Now, how I met Dr. King. I met Dr. King in a pool room. The pool room was called Charlie Brown' ; s Pool Room on West Broad Street. All of that now is torn down. West Broad Street -- Martin Luther King Jr., the street today is nothing like it was when I was a boy coming up. You had clubs from Broad Street to 37th street in Savannah. I mean nice clubs. Because you see, you had the Air Force base there and the Army base just a few miles away. Ft. Stewart. All of the soldiers came to Savannah on liberty. And at the end of Montgomery Street you had Hunter Air Force Base, so all the airmen would come to town. So, they had to have some place for them to go and so they had a lot of clubs. So Hosea had invited Dr. King to come to Savannah. And this particular day I was in the pool room playing nine ball and Hosea and his group, along with Dr. King, came in. And Dr. King said, " ; Brother, you just give me a few minutes ; I promise you I won' ; t be long. I just want to talk to you for a few minutes." ; Well, right about the time he was asking for our attention I was getting ready to bank the eight ball across side, play the nine ball in the corner, and get paid. And I didn' ; t want to hear nothing about what this guy was talking about, you know. So he walked over to me, he said, " ; What' ; s your name?" ; I said " ; What' ; s your name?" ; He say " ; I' ; m Martin Luther King, Jr." ; I say " ; I' ; m Willie Bolden." ; He said, " ; I promise you, I' ; m not going to take long. Just give me a few minutes of your time." ; So I very arrogantly took my pool stick and they had benches around the wall, because if you weren' ; t playing you had to sit on the bench out of the way. So I went over and sat on the bench with my pool stick in front of me and he was talking. I act like I wasn' ; t listening but I was listening. And finally, he got through and he said, " ; Thank you, guys, man, I really appreciate your time." ; Well, he invited everybody to come to a mass rally at St. Philip Church that night because he was going to be speaking. And so when he and Hosea and the crew left I got back over the table, I banked the eight ball cross side, I played the nine in the corner, I got paid. So, later on that night I was home. Man, Bob, my pockets was swolled up like they had the mumps. I mean I had a good day in the pool room, right? So I went home that night to take my bath. And we didn' ; t have showers like we have today. I took my bath in a number 310 tub. Some of the people who' ; ll be listening to this tape would not even know what a number 310 tub is, but that' ; s what we used to wash clothes and everything back during those days. So I took my bath in my number 310 tub and got dressed up for the evening. And while I was in the tub, it was strange, because I could hear Dr. King talking about how we were beating each other out of the little bit of money that we had. When, in fact, the man who was really robbing us was several blocks down the street at City Hall and at the County Commission and in the County Commission Chambers and sitting up in these suites. And I said, " ; You know, I think I' ; ll go hear that guy tonight and see what else he' ; s got to talk about." ; But I didn' ; t want the boys to know that I was going to go to the church. So when I got ready to go, I lived on the corner of Anderson and Burroughs, I walked down Anderson Street to Montgomery Street, which is the street past West Broad. Then walked up Montgomery Street and back to West Broad Street so I could get to St. Philip Church which sat on West Broad and Hall Street. And I went in there, people were all -- I know the pastor of that church wished that people were there every Sunday like that -- people were all over the place. I mean in the rafters, up in the balcony, all around, standing all around. I said " ; Jesus Christ, all these folks." ; So I just kind of leaned back on the wall and I was listening. And I watched this guy Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. He had everybody in the palm of his hand. At will, he picked folk up out of the pew and sat them down at will. I had never heard nobody speak like that before. And I' ; m learning on the wall and all of the sudden chill bumps start coming on me. And I said to myself, " ; Self, a man is not supposed to make another man feel the way this man is making me feel. That' ; s just not supposed to be." ; And when he finished, folks started lining up around the wall to go shake his hand. And I went and got in line and when I walked up to him and I stretched my hand out to shake his hand he stretched his hands out and when our hands met it felt like I had cotton in my hand. I was scared to give him a real firm confident shake. I just squeezed his hand just a little bit. But the thing that got me, Bob, was this: he say, " ; Willie, I' ; m so glad you came." ; Now, I don' ; t know how many folk this man had met, but how could he remember my little ol' ; Willie name? And I must admit that it made me feel pretty good, right? A guy like this remembering me. About three weeks later Hosea told me Dr. King wanted me to come to Atlanta. I said " ; For what?" ; " ; Well, he might want you to talk about working with him." ; I said, " ; Now, Hosea, that' ; s the non-violent movement. I know yours is non-violent, too, but you know, we don' ; t have folks spitting on us and we don' ; t have folk slapping and hitting on us because we don' ; t have that kind of violent movement. Only thing happening to us in Savannah was we got locked up, okay? " ; And I said, " ; Now, Hosea, you know I' ; m an ex-Marine and if somebody spit on me, if they have a lip when it' ; s all over with, it' ; s going to be a miracle. Beause I' ; m not letting anybody, I don' ; t care who it is, spit on me. And Lord knows, you know I ain' ; t going to let nobody hit me and I not hit them back. So, you tell Dr. King that, you know, I can' ; t handle that non-violent stuff." ; He said, " ; Well, I tell you what, Bolden" ; -- ' ; cause he always called me Bolden -- " ; you tell Dr. King yourself." ; He gave me a flight check, what they used back then. All I had to do was go out there and sign my name to it and give it to ' ; em and get on the plane and go to Atlanta and when I got ready to come back take another check, sign on it, and come back to Atlanta. He gave me one for going, one for coming. I came to Atlanta, met with Dr. King at 334 Auburn Avenue. That' ; s where the National SCLC Headquarters was located, right on the corner of Hilliard and Auburn Avenue. His office wasn' ; t nowhere as large as this office is. I mean his office really was like a little closet, had a very small desk and his chair and had books all around naturally, and one small sofa over on the wall. And I met with him and he told me that he' ; d like for me to come work with him. And all that stuff I told Hosea, I could not get it out of my mouth to tell him. I don' ; t know why. As a matter of fact, I' ; ll be quite honest with you, I was a bit nervous sitting in there with him. And I remember him asking me, he said, " ; Do you have a Bible?" ; And I said, " ; Yes, I have a Bible." ; And he gave me -- and I still have it -- a book on Mahatma Gandhi, the master of non-violence. And he said to me, " ; Willie" ; -- he always called me Willie -- he said, " ; Willie, we' ; re going to turn this country from upside down to right side up with two books: one, the Holy Bible and two, Mahatma Gandhi. Read and study both of them." ; It was three years before I went back home. I had to have my mom pack up my stuff and send it to me on the Greyhound bus. That' ; s how I got involved in the Civil Rights Movement from Savannah, Georgia. SHORT: What was your first experience in the movement after you joined SCLC? BOLDEN: Now, my first experience was to go into town. Andy Young -- well, at that time, before Andy came it was Wyatt Tee Walker. He was the executive director. He and Andy, they all worked closely together. But primarily, my job was wherever Dr. King was going into a movement, my job was to go in and make sure that the people knew he was coming. I had to get out, make sure that thousands of leaflets would be distributed, that churches would be notified, that the people in the community knew that he was coming. My job was to get the town ready for Dr. King. And I did that in several cities. That was my primary job. But I felt like I had more to offer than just making sure that some leaflets and stuff got put out. You know, I felt like I was a leader in my own right. I mean even back home in Savannah I was a leader, you know. And I felt that I had much more to offer. And I remember saying that in a meeting, I said, " ; You know, I can do a lot more than just make sure there' ; s some leaflets. But anybody can go to town and put out some leaflets." ; And that' ; s when they assigned me to Hosea. And Hosea started me with voter registration in Albany, Georgia. And I went to Albany and I stayed in Albany over a year on voter registrations. I had several run-ins with one of the meanest police chiefs you' ; d want to meet by the name of Pritchett. He locked me up two or three times. And I remember on one occasion I took some people down to the courthouse to get registered and they wanted us to leave and I told the folk we weren' ; t going to leave. And I was standing up on the -- it had a little, I guess you' ; d call it an edge, going up the steps to the courthouse. And I was standing up on that because the people could see me as I talked to them. And he slapped me off the edge on top of a car and I guess he thought that I was going to get up and leave, but fortunately, I didn' ; t hurt myself. Did more damage to that car than I did myself. And I got up and went back and stood right back up on that same stump and kept on talking and the people never left. So he had his folk to lock me up. And I stayed in jail a couple of days and a lawyer by the name of C.B. King, Slater King' ; s brother, was the one who came and defended me. And the guy who went on my bond was a black business man there who owned a beauty supply company called Chapman Beauty Supply. And he was the one that went on my bond and got me out of jail. And C.B. King was the one who represented me in court. And if my memory serves me correctly, I was fined something like $100 for failing to obey a police officer. But we registered hundreds and hundreds of voters in Albany during my stay there at that time. SHORT: Dr. King was also arrested in Albany wasn' ; t he? BOLDEN: Oh yeah, he was arrested in Albany. J.T. Johnson, there were a lot of folk from the movement who were locked up in Albany. And C.B. King, the one who represented us, even today the federal courthouse in Albany, Georgia is named after attorney C.B. King, in Albany, Georgia. I went down. The wife and those and invited me to come down to the ceremony. And it' ; s downtown Albany. C.B. King Federal Building. So you see a lot came out of what we did that the average American don' ; t even know about. They may have heard the name but I doubt if anybody, well I wouldn' ; t say anybody, but there are very few people outside of Albany would know that the guy who stood our bonds and fought for us in the courtroom had the federal courthouse named after him. And he also ran for governor. He was a guy before his time. He was a brilliant lawyer. A brilliant, brilliant lawyer. SHORT: So what happened after Albany? BOLDEN: After Albany I think my next move was Social Circle, a little town about 30, 40, maybe a little more than 40 miles east of Atlanta. There was a white teacher and a black teacher who became friends. Both were females. And they were terminated, both of them, because they would not sever their relationship and they supported each other, and they were good teachers. But you know, when they want to find a way to terminate you they will find a way. So, they found a way and terminated them. They brought it to SCLC, so I was assigned to Social Circle to see what could we do to get their jobs back. So I went in and started organizing the community along with some other staff from SCLC. And we stayed there in Social Circle over a good year, because we pulled kids out of school. We closed the schools down in Social Circle. And we were marching every day. The state patrol, they had as many as 20 to 25 state patrols assigned -- they would follow me -- I thought they were my escorts because everywhere I went there were one or two state patrols behind my car. They knew my car. They knew when I left. They would follow me from Social Circle back to Atlanta. And they would stop out there on 20, and when my car headed back to Social Circle they would pick me up and follow me. Well, I didn' ; t mind that because I said " ; As long as the state patrol is following me then I don' ; t have to worry about the Ku Klux Klan following me." ; So, I say " ; They don' ; t know it but they are really doing something to help me." ; So I almost wanted to call them and say look, " ; I' ; m getting ready to leave" ; , so they could come behind me and follow me. But we stayed there for about a year and that particular city received at the SCLC National Convention, they received the Affiliate of the Year Award because of what was going on. Because not only did it affect Social Circle but it affected many of the other little counties around, like Lincolnton and Washington, all the way over to Monroe. The movement just started spreading like throwing a rock in the water and you see the ripples going out. So, it was a catalyst for a lot of other movements in and around Social Circle. As a matter of fact, that' ; s where I was when Dr. King was assassinated. I was meeting with the leader and the treasurer and the leadership of the Social Circle Movement at the president' ; s house when it came over the TV that Dr. King had just been shot. And I said " ; man." ; I mean everybody just stopped. I mean we couldn' ; t do or say anything. And then they showed a picture. I shall never forget it. They showed a picture of Dr. King speaking somewhere and it was like you saw a halo over his head. And I said then to the group, I said, " ; He' ; s dead y' ; all. He' ; s dead." ; Not knowing that he really was dead. Because the news was he' ; s been shot. And sure enough he died. And I remember getting in my car going to Atlanta, trying to get a airplane so I could go to Memphis and they had cancelled all flights to Memphis, Tennessee. And I remember calling the office and speaking to Dora McDonald, who was Dr. King' ; s secretary, and said, " ; Dora, I got to get to Memphis. I got to get to Memphis. I got to get" ; -- she said, " ; Willie, they have locked. They closed down everything." ; I said " ; Well, I' ; m going to drive." ; She said, " ; No, don' ; t drive. You just need to come on to the office." ; And so, instead -- I' ; ll never forget. It was pouring down rain. I mean it was raining like cats and dogs. And I remember driving on back to Atlanta to the SCLC office that night. But Social Circle was quite a movement. And then after Social Circle I went to Pike County in Georgia because they had terminated Dr. Glover, D.F. Glover, who served for many years in Atlanta on the Board of Education as an elected official. They terminated him. And the reason they terminated him was because they were going to integrate the schools and Dr. Glover was the principal of the only black high school there. Pike County Mechanical something Industrial High School. So, they terminated him because they were going to merge the black high school in with the Pike County High School, which was the white high school. Now, here' ; s a guy who had been in education almost 15 years longer than the principal at the white high school. Not only that, he had a doctorate in education. He had come up through ranks. He had taught. He was department chair. His experience was 100 times more greater than the guy who was there, but rather than make him the principal of that school, they did not renew his contract. And when they did not renew his contract he got in touch with SCLC and they sent me there. And I went and we met with them and I' ; m saying, " ; On what basis do you have not to renew Dr. Glover contract?" ; And they just played with words. I said " ; You terminated the man. You fired him." ; " ; No, we didn' ; t fire him. We just didn' ; t renew his contract." ; " ; Well, if you didn' ; t renew his contract you got to have a reason. You just can' ; t arbitrarily and capriciously not renew someone' ; s contract and not give them a reason why." ; " ; Well, we just didn' ; t renew his contract." ; That' ; s all they would say. So, what I did, we started organizing the community, organizing the schools. I pulled all the kids out of school, and we marched every single day in that town for about a month. Every day. And we saw where our marching -- we would go downtown to the courthouse, give big speeches -- we saw where we had to up the ante a little bit as we would call it. So we started marching out to the superintendent' ; s house. And we marched out to the superintendent' ; s house. He lived out on the outskirts of Zebulon. So we marched out to his house during the day. And then a student came up to me one day and said, " ; Reverend Bolden, maybe we need to do it at night." ; And I said, " ; you know, I never really thought about that. That' ; s a good idea." ; So, we marched out there a couple nights. But then that got to be a little dangerous because they started throwing bricks and bottles and several people got hurt. And that' ; s when I invited A.D. King, the brother of Dr. King. He came to Pike County and he led a march and spoke. But they never did renew Dr. Glover' ; s contract, but we felt like we won because what they tried to do was to keep the high school students who were qualified to graduate that year not to graduate. They didn' ; t want them to graduate. So I got a guy in Savannah -- you probably heard of him -- the only guy I know picket more than Hosea. His name was Reverend Joseph Boone, Joseph Boone. I went to him and talked about it and we organized a graduation class for the students who met all of the criteria' ; s to graduate. But the county didn' ; t want to give them their diploma. So we held our own graduation, gave them our own diplomas, and Bob, every one of them we helped get in college. Every one of them went on to college and are doing quite well even today. Okay? So we felt like that was a victory. Now, the other thing that happened in Pike County was we closed down a canning company. This canning company had about a four or five million dollar contract with the federal government to make pimentos and bell peppers and all kinds of stuff for the federal government. And what we did, we organized the picketers with the students. We picketed the company and when that seemed like it wasn' ; t going to work we started organizing the workers who were the parents of the students that we were trying to help. And when we convinced them of what we were doing, they came out of the canning company, and as a result, the canning company lost their contract with the federal government. And they sued me personally for $1.5 million. I went to Macon, the federal court, and I said to the guy who sued me, " ; You know, you would have scared the hell out of me if you had sued me for a $100, but a million five. Where am I going to get it? The best thing you can get is me. Do you want me?" ; And they finally dropped that case. But that company lost somewhere between three and five million dollar contract with the federal government. So we felt like we had a victory in Pike County because we were able to get those students into college. Then later I was assigned to Marks, Mississippi. As I told you earlier, that' ; s the only city I ever saw Dr. King literally cry. And he cried because he witnessed a third world city right here in America. We were always talking about going to Africa and going here and going there, the third world. Well, we had one right here in America, a Third World city called Marks, Mississippi. At that time, it was the poorest county in the nation. Listed as the poorest county in the nation. Kids seven, eight, nine, eleven, twelve years old walking around with pot belly stomachs. You would think that they were there because they were eating too much. The truth of the matter is they were dying from starvation. Their teeth just rotting out. It was nothing to see a ten-, eleven-, twelve-year-old boy or girl walking around with just raggedy teeth or no teeth. You could almost just reach there and pull a tooth out with your fingers because of no medical care. Well, right about that time the Poor People' ; s Campaign was being organized. And I was asked if I would lead the mule train. Hosea gave me this assignment to bring the mule train from Marks, Mississippi to Washington, D.C. Took us 52 days to do it. I had 16 wagons and about 175 men, women, and children on there. We left out of Marks, Mississippi. The governor of Mississippi directed the state patrol to close down one side of Highway 20 so we could travel through Mississippi. Got to Alabama, the governor instructed the highway patrol, " ; close down one side of Highway 20, 20 East" ; so we could continue our journey to Washington. Got to Georgia, Tallapoosa, Georgia, Governor Lester Maddox was the governor. A kindergarten drop out. I almost said a high school drop out but I couldn' ; t give him that much credit. A kindergarten drop out, who was our governor, came out and met us as we were ready to enter into Georgia and said to me, " ; These wagons and mules will not go down 20." ; I said, " ; Mr. Governor, the governor of Mississippi allowed us to come down 20, the governor of Alabama allowed us to come down 20. Now you mean to tell me my governor in my home state will not allow us to continue our journey." ; He said, " ; I don' ; t care what Mississippi did. I don' ; t care what Alabama did. I' ; m telling you what' ; s going to happen in Georgia." ; And I said, " ; Mr. Governor, it' ; s obvious that you don' ; t know me very well. Oh, we' ; re going down 20 one way or the other. We' ; re going down 20. He got in his car and left." ; I understand later on he ordered for me to be arrested. They came and locked me up, took me to jail. Andrew Marsette, one of my helpers on the march who knew how to organize, organized the mules and wagons off of 20 and brought them all in downtown Tallapoosa to the jailhouse and said " ; we' ; re not leaving until Willie Bolden is out of jail." ; They kept me in jail about six hours and they turned me loose. And guess what? We spent the night there, got up the next morning, and we went down 20 East, came off at Ashby Street, which is Joseph E. Lowery right now, to Hunter Street, which is Martin Luther King. Took a right on Hunter Street to Chestnut, which is James P. Brawley Drive. Well, Dr. Ralph David Abernathy' ; s West Hunter Street Baptist Church sits right on the corner, at that time. And we parked the mules and the wagons over at Clark College football field. And that' ; s where we spent the time until we got ready to go to Washington. Dr. Abernathy and the restaurant across the street fed us. It was strange because one of the guys who owned one of the restaurants across the street was a number man. Okay? And he had this nice restaurant. And he found out what we had gone through. He fed everybody on that trip a steak, baked potato with all the trimmings, all of us on that trip. I think we stayed in Atlanta a couple of days and then we loaded up the mules, the wagons, put the people on buses, loaded up the mules and wagons on horse drawn buggies, I guess you' ; d call ' ; em, and the wagon and we took them to Washington, outside of Washington, and we reassembled everything, the mules, the wagons, put all the people on it, and then we went across the bridge into Resurrection City. And I must admit, and I think I told you earlier, a few tears came to my eyes when we saw all the folk. Because they knew we were coming. And they were out there to meet us. And they were just cheering us on, you know. Cheering us on. And the other folk on the wagon, they were cheering us on. And I told you earlier, and I didn' ; t put it in here, but I was given a white horse with a saddle. Never rode a horse before in my life. But I rode that horse that was given to me as the wagon master. They called me the wagon master. And the guy said " ; if you' ; re the wagon master you got to act like a wagon master. You got to ride like a wagon master." ; And I remember him saying like that movie that came on back during the day, " ; Rawhide," ; " ; you' ; re going to have to say, Get ' ; em up! Move ' ; em out!" ; And I would get up every morning after we' ; d have breakfast and got ourselves together, I would go up to the first mule drawn wagon and I' ; d look and the guys who were helping me would let me know that everybody was ready, and I say, " ; Get ' ; em up! Move ' ; em out!" ; Oh, it was fun. And the weather wasn' ; t always conducive. We ran into a lot of bad weather. But we made it. But we made it. And then later on I was assigned to St. Augustine, Florida. That was quite a task there. In St. Augustine we were trying to integrate the hotels, motels, and restaurants. And these movements that I' ; m talking about may not go in sequence but at least you' ; ll know what they are because in St. Augustine it was in 1964. And everyone knows -- if you don' ; t know I' ; ll tell you -- the Poor People' ; s Campaign took place in 1968. That' ; s when we had Resurrection City in Washington, D.C. But in St. Augustine, as I stated earlier, we were trying to integrate the hotel, motels, and restaurants. And we were beaten twice a day, because it was twice a day that we would march downtown, march out on the beach, and they would be there ready to jump on us. And on the weekend they would import the Klan from Florida, Jacksonville, Georgia, Arkansas, Mississippi, Alabama. They would have the Klan to come over and they would be waiting for us at the beaches. So when we got to the beaches and we got out and they would wait until we got out in the water and then they would come in and jump on us. And the strange thing about it, the state patrol would be standing up on the banks and they would see them out there and wouldn' ; t do a thing. Just allowed them to come and beat us. But let me give you just a little bit of information about St. Augustine and then we can move on. For those of you who may not be aware, Birmingham and Montgomery, Alabama put the 1964 Civil Rights bill on President Lyndon Baines Johnson' ; s desk because of the movements and activities in Birmingham and in Montgomery. There' ; s no question about that. They were the ones who put it on the desk. He took it and put it in his drawer. But it was the movement in St. Augustine, Florida in 1964: those beatings that I just told you about, a man at the Munson Motel throwing acid in the pool and then the next day when we went back and had a six foot alligator in the pool. We would go in the restaurant and they would bring the coffee and then just pour mounds and mounds of sugar in it. Or we would order food and they would come back with salt just stacked up and pepper stacked up on the food to the point where you couldn' ; t eat it. But it was during St. Augustine, Florida' ; s movement that Dr. King' ; s house was shot up. A family out of New York allowed him to stay in the house in St. Augustine while we were there. And they literally shot that house up trying to kill him and anybody else who was in there with him. And because of that movement, Lyndon Baines Johnson took the 1964 Civil Rights bill out, put it on his desk and signed it. That' ; s how we got that. Marion, Alabama. The night Jimmy Lee Jackson got killed, Dr. King was supposed to go to Marion, Alabama that night because we had just found out that James Orange was arrested and beaten in Marion, Alabama. He couldn' ; t go. So he sent me and about five other guys. I think it was Henry Brown Lee, " ; Big Lester" ; Hankerson, Jimmy Lee Wells, myself, and one other person. I can' ; t think of who that person is. But we went there. We had a big mass rally that night. And I spoke. And we were getting ready to march out of the church to march down to the courthouse and then eventually over to the jail where they had James Orange. But when we got there the media was all over the place. And the sheriff and all his folk were there. But before we could really get the march on the way outside the sheriff summons one of his henchmen to come and grab me. And he grabbed me up by my jeans and carried me over to the sheriff and the sheriff said, " ; What' ; s your name, nigger?" ; And before I could say anything he took his pistol and stuck it in my mouth and cocked the trigger back and said, " ; If you breathe, nigger, I' ; ll blow your so and so brains out." ; Now here I am looking at him and I' ; m trying to say to myself, " ; Self, don' ; t breathe." ; And I' ; m just looking at him and he' ; s looking at me and he' ; s calling Dr. King all kind of names. " ; Dr. Coon" ; and " ; you one of these outside agitators who came into town and upset my negro -- my niggers." ; What -- he didn' ; t call them niggers. " ; Niggerettes" ; -- " ; and upset my niggerettes." ; " ; I ought to blow your so and so brains out." ; And he finally snapped it out and when he did the end of the barrel of his pistol hit my teeth and cracked it. And then he hit me in the head, busted my head, and then say, " ; Lock your so and so ass up." ; And they jumped on the marchers and that' ; s the night Jimmy Lee Jackson was killed, trying to protect his mother. And they took me to jail, along with many others, and as we got to the jail they were taking us upstairs we could see blood all over the floor, going up the steps where they had not only beaten James Orange but they had beaten some other folks who went to jail with him. So, Marion, Alabama was a tough movement. And of course, the march on Washington I was fresh out of jail in Savannah. I had been in jail for about five days. Hosea had been in jail 55 days. He refused to come out. But I came out of jail and helped organized the group that went to Washington, D.C. during the march on Washington. And of course, as I stated earlier, the mule train was a part of the Poor People' ; s Campaign in 1968 when Dr. Abernathy organized Resurrection City in Washington, D.C. Then we had a program called SCOPE, S-C-O-P-E. It stands for Summer Community Organization for Political Education. That was another one of Hosea' ; s projects. That was his baby. He created it. And that program was designed specifically for us who worked with him to go north, northwest, in the west to recruit specifically white students to come south to work on voter registration. Because what was happening in the south was those of us who were of the same hue that the folks were out on the plantation, for some reason or another - I wouldn' ; t say they didn' ; t trust us - but they were a little skeptical about going downtown with us because they felt like we weren' ; t able to protect them. But if the white students would come and say, " ; Bob, my name is Susan ; I' ; m from the University of Pennsylvania and I' ; m down here working on voter registration, and what we' ; re doing, we' ; re traveling throughout the county trying to register blacks" ; -- we weren' ; t saying African Americans then, we were saying blacks -- " ; who are not registered to vote, because we know that you have taxation without representation. We know that you are the last hired but the first fired. We know that you don' ; t have the jobs that others have. And with voter registration, we can change that. So, I' ; d like to take you down to register." ; And believe it or not, they would go. They would go on down there. And we knew that and found that out from the few whites who were working with us in SCLC. Guys like Al Lango and Willy Leventhal. They were white guys who worked with us. And they were getting folks and taken them. So, Hosea said, " ; Well, let' ; s see if we can get the white students from the north, the west, the Midwest to come down to help us with this." ; And we did. And we got thousands of them to come. And we went out in Alabama, in Mississippi, in Florida, in Georgia, and began to register black voters. And that' ; s when the black voting power really started kicking off. It was those kind of campaigns that help us, along with Selma, to get the Voters Right Act. Because once we got the voting right act out of Selma, it made it a bit more easier for us to get blacks registered. And I say all the time, no Selma, Alabama, no President Barack Obama. No Selma, Alabama, no Maynard Holbrook Jackson, mayor of the city of Atlanta. No Selma, no Andrew Young, United States Congressman. No Selma, no Andy Young, United Nations. No Selma, no Andy Young, mayor. No Selma, no Shirley Franklin, Mayor of the city of Atlanta. And then you can just take it outside of Atlanta and just go all over the world. We had less than 300 black elected officials nationwide, if we had that many, in 1965. Today we got over 10,000. And that' ; s all attributed to Selma, Alabama and the Edmund Pettus Bridge, which I' ; m glad to say I was on it, both times. The first time, March the 7th, and seven days later, March the 14th. I was there. SHORT: Well, tell us about it. What was it like on the bridge on Bloody Sunday? BOLDEN: Okay. I had been assigned there along with some other SCLC staff members to organize voter registration in Selma. I think it was about four or five of us. And at the same time, SNCC was there also working on voter registration. After Bloody Sunday, we had people coming in and Bloody Sunday was when we attempted the first time to go across the Edmund Pettus Bridge. The sheriff and his posse and state patrol, they beat us back across the bridge. Now, Dr. King -- you' ; re right -- was not much in favor of the march at first because he wanted to try some other techniques before we march. But Hosea Williams convinced Dr. King that the march was the best thing for us to do. So, Dr. King acquiesced and said, " ; okay, we' ; ll march." ; But the ones who led the march was, the first time was Hosea, John, they were the leaders of the march across the bridge. And that' ; s when they jumped on us and beat us up and pushed us back across the bridge. Then we regrouped and went back and that' ; s when everybody -- I mean people came from all over the world. Because they saw what happened on that first march and all of our sympathizers came. And prior to that, we had had not only the killing of Jimmy Lee Jackson in Marion, but we had two whites killed right there in Selma. One was a priest, whose name escapes me at the moment. I was trying to think about it as I talked, but the name just won' ; t come to me, and another one. So it was kind of touch and go. But on that second march we took out across the Edmund Pettus Bridge and we were protected all the way to Montgomery. Along the way we had all kinds of celebrities who came and supported us. Again, Harry Bellafonte, Joan Baez, Peter, Paul & ; Mary, Sidney Poitier. We had all kind of folk who had helped the movement along to come and be with us. And of course, you know, we reach Montgomery, Alabama, and Dr. King gave the big speech on the steps and someone might ask, " ; then what happened after that?" ; What happened after that was SCLC started Voter Registration Campaigns all across the country. All across the country. And even some small towns we started voter registration. You take in Selma, Alabama, where there was not one black elected official. There are now. And so, not only did we target large cities, but we targeted small cities. If you remember, Carl Stokes in Cleveland, Ohio, the first black mayor of a major city. And right after him in Gary, Indiana, Hatcher in Gary, Indiana where SCLC played a major role in getting both of those guys because Dr. King sent staff in to help them on their campaign. So all these cities where you see blacks serving in elected positions, they have to thank the Selma Movement. And those who suffered being beaten, and even after we got the 1965 Voter' ; s Right Act, there were still some cities, and not all of them small cities, where we had a problem getting blacks registered to vote by the administration, by political, by the power structure of those cities, because they knew that once we got blacks registered then we were going to also turn them out to vote and that meant that, hey, they might get caught up in that wheel. SHORT: Mississippi. You led some marches in Mississippi. BOLDEN: Well my biggest march in Mississippi was Marks. And the next one would be Grenada, Mississippi. Grenada, Mississippi was a violent movement. Again, and that' ; s why I try to tell young people today. We were always able to get a movement going and get it started with the young people back then. We would go into a town and get the young people ready and then after a while we would get the adults. But the young people were the ones who really started the movement. And in Grenada, that movement got to be really violent. As a matter of fact, on one occasion, when the Klan jumped on us and beat us up, we were getting ready to march downtown. I saw with my eyes a guy take his foot and put it between the crotch of a young boy and took his foot, I mean took his foot by his hand and twisted and broke his leg in two places. I mean how could somebody take a child and put your foot between their crotch and take your hand and twist and break it in two places? And there were several people who got hurt that day. And we went to the hospital in Grenada, Mississippi, and guess what? They wouldn' ; t wait on us. They wouldn' ; t wait on us. They said " ; Get out of here. We can' ; t do anything." ; That' ; s when I found out about an all black town on the outskirts of Grenada called Mound Bayou. I had never heard of Mound Bayou. It' ; s an all black city, elected officials, everything, all black. Had their own hospital. And that' ; s where we had to take these injured folk in order for them to get the services they needed for the injuries that they had. Grenada was pretty tough. But weathered the storm. We weathered the storm. SHORT: If you were asked what future generation should know about the Civil Rights Movement, particularly during the 60' ; s and 70' ; s, what would you say? BOLDEN: What they need to know about the Civil Rights Movement? They need to know that what they are enjoying today came at a heavy price. A lot of people whom they don' ; t know died. A lot of people whom they do not know have mental and physical conditions today as a result of the Civil Rights Movement of the 60' ; s in order for them to enjoy what they are enjoying today. And they ought not take what they are enjoying lightly. I would say to young people, today the question should be what is it that I can do to make sure that this country does not revert back to the 40' ; s, 50' ; s, and 60' ; s. And then get involved. Get involved with something. Get involved with some organization. Do some volunteer work. I worked for the Southern Christian Leadership Conference for nine years and the most I ever made was $25 every two weeks. I was never hungry. I was never naked. I was never outdoors where I didn' ; t choose to be on my own. Because the people who we were helping made sure that we had what we needed. So you ought to get involved. Secondly, get an education. Go to school. When I came to Atlanta in 1961 there were 125,000 students in the Atlanta public school system. They have less than 55,000 now. And the dropout rate among blacks in high schools are higher today than it was in 1961. In 1961 when I came to Atlanta they had one black elected official on the Atlanta Board of Education. Now we have six. The superintendent in 1961 was white. The superintendent in 2009 is black. But yet, we have more students dropping out of school in 2009 than we had in 1961. Something' ; s wrong with that picture. Something' ; s wrong. And we need young people to get involved so we can make sure that whatever' ; s wrong gets straightened out. John Lewis and Julian Bond and Dr. King and Dr. Abernathy and Hosea and Andy and C.T. and Fred Shuttlesworth and Willie Bolden and James Orange and Leon Hall and Lester Hankerson, we were young men. You know, we weren' ; t old. We' ; re old now. But we were young men when we started out in the Civil Rights Movement. And that' ; s what we need now. We need young men. I mean kids are smarter today than my two and a half year old granddaughter came to me the other day and I stretched out in the chair and I felt a charley horse coming in the back of my neck and she got up and came over to me and she said, " ; Papa, what' ; s the matter? What' ; s the matter, Papa?" ; And she went over to her mama and said, " ; Lotion, lotion" ; , and mama put a little lotion on her hand and she came back over to rub Papa' ; s leg. Two and a half years old. Kids are much smarter today. But are they using it? We texting. And we can' ; t write a full sentence because we text shorthand. Instead of saying Y-O-U, you just put U so you can get a lot of words in there. And as a results, when you sit down to get ready to write you' ; re writing just like that -- U. So can' ; t nobody understand what you' ; re writing. SHORT: What do you think are the most important issues facing African- Americans today? BOLDEN: Education and health. Education, health, and parental involvement. SHORT: What can we do -- BOLDEN: When I was a young man I could not come to my mother' ; s table with no t-shirt on. In my mama' ; s house, when me and my daddy came to the table we had to have a shirt on. And the shirt had to be tucked in my pants. I never saw my daddy in my mama' ; s house with his hat on. Always took it off before he came in the house. But I see folks today sitting up in restaurants, the daddy got his hat on backwards, the son got his hat on backwards, the daughter got her hat on backwards. We have to -- and I know they call it old school but some things we shouldn' ; t throw away. Some things we should maintain. SHORT: Is there a single spokesman for African-Americans today -- BOLDEN: No. SHORT: -- as Dr. King was in his day? BOLDEN: No, and I don' ; t think there ever will be another single spokesman for the black community. And I think maybe the closest person to it today would be our president. But I can' ; t think of any one civil rights leader who can be identified as the spokesman for the black community. Now many of them are speaking out on issues that we certainly have some concerns. Brother Al Sharpton and even Jesse Jackson is a spokesman in his own right. The National Urban League. We have a lot of spokesman now, but don' ; t think we will ever have a single spokesman like we had during Dr. King. I also think that one of the reason we have a problem in getting the masses of people to get involved like we did in the 60' ; s -- remember, in the 60s nobody had nothing. Nobody had anything. You didn' ; t have nothing to lose. You had everything to gain. But today folk are living in $3-400,000 homes ; they don' ; t want to lose that. They' ; re driving Bentley, Rolls Royce, Mercedes ; they don' ; t want to lose that. They' ; re wearing Armani instead of J.C. Penney. They don' ; t want to lose that. So, they are ready to send you a few dollars so you can do it, but in terms of them doing it, they' ; re not going to do that. But in the 60' ; s, didn' ; t nobody have anything. So, it was much easier to organize the masses of folk because we all were in the same shape. Even with the churches, you know, you got the mega churches, with exception of maybe one, you don' ; t see them on the picket line. They will speak out and they' ; ll write you a check. But what you really need is their bodies, you see. SHORT: The SCLC is in existence today. What now is its main focus? BOLDEN: Well, I wish I could tell you that. I can' ; t tell you what their main focus is. I think right now SCLC, because it is trying to get a president, and it' ; s hard for SCLC to get focused right now because they don' ; t have a leader. But I think once the leader has been selected and that leader gets his or her cabinet in place and then they can do what Dr. King and Reverend Abernathy and Fred Shuttlesworth and others do what they did. But I just don' ; t think they are really focused right now, and really focused. SHORT: Well I appreciate you being with us. I' ; d like to ask you one final question. BOLDEN: Okay. SHORT: Have we overlooked anything in your career that you' ; d like to mention? BOLDEN: Well, no, except I always make it clear that I worked with Dr. King and I loved him and I could have taken that bullet for him -- I really mean it -- some folks say it and just because it sounds good. But if I could have taken that bullet for Dr. King I would have taken it. I loved him that much. But my real hero, my real hero -- I have two. And they are my mother and my father. My mother gave me the fight that' ; s in me because that' ; s the way she was. My mom was president of PTA in my elementary school and then when I got promoted to middle school, they called it junior high back then, she was elected president of the PTA. And the elementary school would not let her resign. So she ended up being president of the elementary school PTA and the junior high PTA because she was a fighter. She was a organizer. She liked to get things done. My dad, on the other hand, I got my work ethics from. My daddy taught me the importance of having a job, working, taking care of your family. He taught me about time. He said if you' ; re on time you' ; re late. If you' ; re on time you' ; re late. So I always have a problem, even at the church where I left and the church here, our Sunday morning worship service starts at 11:00. I' ; m not coming in the pulpit at 11 or five after 11. I' ; m there before 11. I' ; m there while the deacons are having devotion so when they finish and turn it over to me we' ; ll have a smooth transition. We can move on. Like today, I knew I was supposed to meet you at 11:00. I left home early enough in case I ran into traffic and had to detour where I could be here. I think I got here what? About 10:35, 10:30, 10:35. SHORT: Yeah, you were early. BOLDEN: Yeah. SHORT: You were early. BOLDEN: Because I got all that from daddy. He was my hero. That' ; s the only thing that I would like to add in here, that because of my relationship with my mother and father, I am what I am today. Dr. King and those just -- and Hosea and Andy and those just helped put the icing on it. But when I was in the raw it was my mother and father who chiseled me and got me ready. And when Dr. King and them got me all they had to do was say let' ; s go ; I was ready. Yeah. SHORT: Okay. Willie Bolden, thank you very, very much. BOLDEN: Thank you. And I certainly hope that this interview will be enlightening and help those who will watch it. Because what you have seen and heard today is authentic. I didn' ; t get it off the Internet and I didn' ; t read a book. Everything that I talked about today I witnessed it with my own eyes, and I was there. And again, thank you, Bob. [END OF RECORDING] Resources may be used under the guidelines described by the U.S. Copyright Office in Section 107, Title 17, United States Code (Fair use). Parties interested in production or commercial use of the resources should contact the Russell Library for a fee schedule. video 0 RBRL220ROGP-088.xml RBRL220ROGP-088.xml http://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL220ROGP/findingaid http://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL220ROGP-088/findingaid
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Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
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Interview with Willie Bolden, October 7, 2009
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RBRL220ROGP-088
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Willie Bolden
Bob Short
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video
oral histories
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African Americans--History
Political activists
Civil rights
Civil rights demonstrations
Discrimination
United States--Civil rights
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Willie Bolden was born in Sumter, South Carolina on December 7, 1938. and was raised in Savannah, Georgia. He is best known for his work as a civil rights activist. In this interview, Bolden discusses his activity with the Southern Christian Leadership Conference (SCLC), the Poor People’s Campaign, and the Summer Community Organization for Political Education (SCOPE). Specifically, he addresses his work with voter registration drives in Albany, Georgia, the efforts to integrate hotels and restaurants in St. Augustine, Florida, and his role as “wagon master” for the Poor People’s Campaign. Other topics include the events of Bloody Sunday and his relationship with civil rights leaders Martin Luther King, Jr. and Hosea Williams.
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2009-10-07
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http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
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United States
Georgia
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moving image
OHMS
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Reflections on Georgia Politics Oral History Collection
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Georgia--History
Georgia--Politics and government
Politics and Public Policy
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The Reflections on Georgia Politics Oral History Collection consists of interviews with politically prominent Georgians conducted by Bob Short from 2006 to 2016. Interviewees include former governors, members of both the U.S. and Georgia Congresses, secretaries of state, lobbyists, journalists, lawyers, activists, and relatives of prominent politicians. Included with these oral histories are a few public programs recorded at Young Harris College in 2006-2007. Most interviews were recorded in the homes and offices of interviewees or in the Bob Short Oral History Studio at the University of Georgia. The conversations cover many topics at the intersection of politics and public life in modern Georgia, with a particular strength in gubernatorial contests, the Civil Rights movement, reapportionment, the development of Atlanta, the rise of the Republican party in Georgia, political journalism, and the interaction between religion and politics.<br /><br /><a href="http://georgiaoralhistory.libs.uga.edu/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=&range=&collection=9&type=&tags=OHMS&featured=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">View all OHMS indexed interviews in this collection here. </a>
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An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2006-2016
Rights
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http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
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Oral histories
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL220ROGP
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Georgia
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
OHMS Object
Contains the OHMS link to the XML file within the OHMS viewer.
https://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL220ROGP-125/ohms
OHMS Object Text
Contains OHMS index and/or transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable.
5.3 Interview with Nan Orrock, December 15, 2010 RBRL220ROGP-125 RBRL220ROGP Reflections on Georgia Politics Oral History Collection ROGP 125 Interview with Nan Orrock finding aid Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies, University of Georgia Nan Orrock Bob Short 0 http://youtu.be/_uTT6oky5fk YouTube video 0 Interview introduction I'm Bob Short. This is Reflections on Georgia Politics sponsored by the Richard Russell Library at the University of Georgia and Young Harris College. Short introduces interview subject Orrock. 17 45 Background and family information Senator, before we get into your career as a public servant, uh, let's find out a little bit about Nan Orrock. Orrock discusses how her family's rural Georgia and Tennessee backgrounds and her Virginia upbringing influenced her decision to enter public office, and details her first visit to Washington, D.C. " ; The Hill" ; ; Alex Haley ; Arlington, Virgina ; Bristol, Virginia ; CCC ; Civilian Conservation Corps ; Clinton, Tennessee ; farmers ; farming ; Forestry ; Franklin D. Roosevelt ; House of Representatives ; Howard Baker Sr. ; Mary Washington College ; Norris Dam ; South Georgia ; Stanton, Virginia ; Sullins College ; Tennessee Valley Authority ; University of Georgia 17 303 First government job / Introduction to Civil Rights Movement I went up for the summer to work for the government, got a clerk typist job... Orrock describes how her first experiences working alongside African Americans during a summer typist job in Washington, D.C. opened her eyes to civil rights issues and motivated her to attend the 1963 March on Washington " ; Northern liberal" ; ; 1963 ; Civil rights ; Civil Rights Movement ; Clinton News-Courier ; Courage ; current events ; Danville, Virginia ; Federal Typing Test ; March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom Now ; Martin Luther King Jr. ; NASA ; Race Relations Committee ; Race War ; Racism ; Roanoke Times ; Segregation ; Southerners ; summer employment ; Washington Post ; YWCA 17 591 Work with Student Non-Violent Coordinating Committee (SNCC) in 1964 That--that Spring of '64, on Easter weekend, on our Easter break, the Y held, convened us in Atlanta... Orrock describes her first college-age visits to Atlanta for her work with the Civil Rights Movement and SNCC, and tells of her family's fears about her involvement. 17 947 Civil rights work in Virginia and North Carolina / Marriage So, that was my summer, and my mother found out I wasn't planning to come back to college because I was dedicating my life to the Civil Rights Movement... Orrock discusses her continued work as a civil rights and labor activist after completing her college studies, as well as her marriage to Gene Guerrero, a fellow civil rights worker 17 1144 Move to Atlanta / Launch of Great Speckled Bird alternative newspaper So, we came in '67 because my husband had to return down here to, uh, he was not, he was a conscientious objector. Orrock tells of her move to Atlanta in her husband's home state of Georgia and their publication of a political and cultural newspaper, which was frequently shut down and confiscated for its content " ; The Strip" ; ; Allman Brothers ; Counter-culture ; Emory University ; Ernest Tubbs Record Shops ; Flower-children ; Georgia General Assembly ; Illegal drugs ; Midtown Atlanta ; Peachtree Avenue ; Piedmont Park ; Psychedelics ; Revolution ; Rock music ; Roy Acuff ; The Supremes ; Vietnam War 17 1416 Local and neighborhood activism and fight against railroad I worked at Nabisco here for seventeen years... Orrock details her involvement in a neighborhood organization which fought to keep the railroad from building a station in downtown Atlanta and how it segued to her first run for public office " ; No in-town piggyback" ; ; Andrew Young Jr. ; Cabbagetown ; City council ; Edmund Park ; Fulton Bag Mill ; Grant Park ; Lineworkers ; Martin Luther King, Jr. Center for Nonviolent Social Change ; Neighborhood activism ; Oakland cemetery ; Ormewood Park ; Racial wedge ; Racism ; Railroads ; Reynoldstown ; Unions ; White flight 17 1726 Entry into city politics So, I said later, the railroad would rue the day, because, because they did that, I wound up at the General Assembly... Orrock discusses how she was encouraged to run for a legislative seat because of her support in both black and white communities, the launch of her ultimately successful campaign in January 1986, and her " ; rude awakening" ; to politics after her election " ; FDR democrat" ; ; Bridge-building ; City council ; Denmark Groover ; Disabilities ; Elected office ; Freshman legislators ; Georgia General Assembly ; Georgia House of Representatives ; Idealism ; John Sweet ; Legislative seat ; Paul Bolster ; Paul Coverdell ; Run-off ; Single mothers ; Speaker of the House ; Tom Murphy ; VISTA 17 2254 The formation of the Women's Legislative Caucus in the House I, I do remember a real feeling of isolation because there wasn't a group, and I really got busy building a group... Orrock speaks about the formation of a bipartisan women's caucus in the House and its advocacy of women- and family-friendly issues, including a fight to pass several health and child care laws and block a bill that would allow insurance companies to sell across state lines ; she further describes how the Republicans attempted to shut down the Women's Legislative Caucus after taking the House. " ; firewall" ; ; Autistic children ; Buddy Childers ; Cathy Steinberg ; Child care ; Democrats ; Dorothy Felton ; Fran Hesser ; Jan Jones ; Jeanette Jamieson ; Jimmy Skipper ; Louis McBee ; Mable Thomas ; Mark Taylor ; Mary Margaret Oliver ; Mike Egan ; Paul Broun Sr. ; Republican Caucus ; Republicans ; Sallie Newbill ; Sandy Springs, Georgia ; Skulduggery ; Terry Coleman ; Toccoa, Georgia 17 2996 Appointment as floor leader for Zell Miller / Fight over Georgia state flag You served as a floor leader for Governor Miller... Orrock describes her work as floor leader under Governor Miller, whom she supported at the time, and the controversy over Miller's proposed change to the Georgia state flag prior to the 1996 Olympic games " ; Flaggers" ; ; 1996 Olympics ; Al Burroughs ; Confederate flag ; DuBose Porter ; Georgia Tech ; Jimmy Skipper ; Mark Taylor ; Paul Bolster ; Robert " ; Bob" ; Holmes ; Robert Brown ; Statesboro ; Steve Hensen ; Thurbert Baker ; Tom Bordeaux ; Zell Miller 17 3624 Zell Miller's growing conservatism / Family Medical Leave act It was a great experience until, as, as things rocked on... Orrock tells of Miller's growing conservatism following the loss of public support and her work on the Family Medical Leave Act Center for Policy Alternatives ; Conservative politics ; Family Medical Leave Act ; Guy Millner ; Lester Maddox ; Lieutenant Governor ; Steve Wrigley ; Working families 17 3776 Family Medical Leave bill 17 3966 Hate Crimes legislation And then also on the Hate Crimes bill--I introduced the first hate crimes legislation in Georgia Orrock speaks about her fight to enact hate crime legislation, which included protection for individuals based on their sexual orientation, and the resistance and defeat of conservative politicians who fought the bill " ; Queer bill" ; ; Anti-Defamation League ; Christian Coalition ; Gay rights ; Gender discrimination ; Gwinnett County ; Henry Bostick ; Homosexuals ; Mexicans ; Migrant workers ; Populist ; Racial discrimination ; Tift County 17 4205 Women's issues in the House Let's talk about Gender Orrock discusses how viewing issues through a " ; gender lens" ; affects her work as a politician, and describes how both Republican and Democrat legislators in the House unanimously vetoed a bill to reduce child support obligations Cathy Cox ; Child support law ; Constitutional law ; Filibuster ; Macon, Georgia ; Microloans ; Policy-making ; Ralph David Abernathy ; Second-glass citizens ; United Nations ; William " ; Billy" ; Randall 17 4621 Running for the Senate So, uh, ten terms in the House, twenty years, you decide to run for the Senate. Orrock tells of her recruitment to run for the senate by the Georgia Legislative Black Caucus, of which Orrock was the first white member, because of her appeal to both black and white constituents, and backtracks to a story of how Jason Shaw attempted to move into an office in the House designated for the majority whip, Orrock's position at the time Calvin Smyre ; Carolyn Hugley ; Earl White ; Floor leader ; Georganna Sinkfield ; Jason " ; Jay" ; Shaw ; Michael Thurman ; Roy Barnes ; Sonny Purdue ; Terry Coleman ; White progressives 17 4917 Gay marriage debate Um, we had a big debate on, um, gay marriage Orrock speaks about a divisive fight over a proposed constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage in Georgia and its political consequences for Republicans who supported it Abortion ; Arch-conservatives ; Baptists ; Brooks Coleman ; Constitutional amendment ; Gay rights ; Hugh Broom ; Jim Martin ; Jim Mathis ; Jim Wooten ; Judiciary committee ; Lynette Stanley ; Right-wing ; Rules committee ; Rural democrats ; Supermajority ; Toccoa Falls College ; Wedge issue 17 5273 Marginalization in the House So that's when DuBose became uh, majority leader and Carolyn became the whip--minority, minority leader and whip Orrock discusses her increasing marginalization in the Republican-controlled House and her decision to run for Senate, which would allow her to represent districts she originally represented as a congresswoman before reapportionment 17 5555 Comparing service in the House and the Senate Which did you enjoy more: the House or the Senate? Orrock divulges that she prefers serving in the Senate rather than the House due to the former being a smaller body that encourages " ; collegial relationships." ; " ; The well" ; ; Keith Heard ; Local government ; Power politics ; Progressives ; Racial divide ; Rural politics ; Urban politics 17 5850 Orrock's Constituents / Metropolitan and rural interests 17 6223 Redistricting / Agriculture Committee Redistricting is just around the corner ; what do you expect? Orrock acknowledges that she is unsure how upcoming redistricting will affect her Senate seat and speculates that Republicans may try to combine her district with that of another Democratic incumbent ; she also discusses her appointment to the Agriculture committee, commonly assigned to female senators, despite representing urban interests Agriculture ; Bohemians ; Demographics ; Fairburn, Georgia ; Fulton County, Georgia ; Historic neighborhoods ; Housing projects ; Jason Carter ; John Bulloch ; Mitchell County, Georgia ; Moultrie, Georgia ; Old Fourth Ward ; Pebble City, Georgia ; Poverty ; Roswell, Georgia ; Urban horticulture ; Vincent Ford ; Virginia Highlands 17 6445 Work outside of elected office And you know, my job--if you're not fortunate enough to be independently wealthy or have somebody else winning the bread in your house... Orrock describes her professional career outside of the House and Senate, which is comprised primarily of non-profit and advocacy work for both social justice and women in politics. " ; Policy wonk" ; ; Atlanta Public Safety ; East Side of Atlanta ; John Lewis ; Julian Bond ; Military budget ; National Conference of State Legislatures ; NCSL ; Non-profits ; Pentagon ; Social change 17 6547 Orrock sums up her political career Well, if you had to sum up Nan Orrock's political career... Orrock speaks to her ongoing work as a public servant, her desire to " ; make a difference," ; her reputation as a tough legislator, her legacy, and an eventual, as-yet unplanned transition out of politics Andy Welch ; Biennial Institute ; Chick-Fil-A ; Chicken processing ; Chip Rogers ; Clayton County, Georgia ; Ford Foundation ; Georgia Budget & ; Policy Institute ; Georgia Watch Health Access Program ; Henry County, Georgia ; Human services ; Immigration ; Manufacturing ; Reynolds Foundation ; Terrell Starr ; Vermont Law School ; William Jefferson " ; Bill" ; Clinton ; Working families 17 6998 Conclusion and final words Well you've certainly had a brilliant career... Orrock concludes the interview by referencing her family's Georgia history, her identity as a Southern progressive, and her pride at being one of the first women in the House and Senate chambers Georgia House of Representatives ; Georgia Senate ; Social justice 17 Oral History No transcript. Resources may be used under the guidelines described by the U.S. Copyright Office in Section 107, Title 17, United States Code (Fair use). Parties interested in production or commercial use of the resources should contact the Russell Library for a fee schedule. video 0 RBRL220ROGP-125.xml RBRL220ROGP-125.xml http://russelldoc.galib.uga.edu/russell/view?docId=ead/RBRL220ROGP-ead.xml http://russelldoc.galib.uga.edu/russell/view?docId=ead/RBRL220ROGP.125-ead.xml
Repository
Name of repository the interview is from
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Nan Orrock, December 15, 2010
Identifier
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RBRL220ROGP-125
Creator
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Nan Orrock
Bob Short
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video
oral histories
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http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Coverage
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Georgia
Atlanta, Georgia
Subject
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State governments--Officials and employees
Civil rights
Political activists
Women--Political activity
Women's rights
Gender
United States--Civil rights
Gay rights
Description
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Senator Nan Orrock was elected by Atlanta voters to the Georgia Senate in 2006, after serving ten terms in the House of Representatives, where she was the first woman elected as House majority whip. She also served as the Governor’s Floor Leader, a committee chair, and a member of the Speaker’s Policy Committee. Her Senate District 36 encompasses downtown Atlanta, stretching north to Lenox Square, south to the city limits and west to the MARTA north-south line. Orrock discusses her early work in the civil rights movement, her time in the legislature, and the nature of party politics in Georgia.
Date
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2010-12-15
Type
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moving image
OHMS
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Reflections on Georgia Politics Oral History Collection
Subject
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Georgia--History
Georgia--Politics and government
Politics and Public Policy
Description
An account of the resource
The Reflections on Georgia Politics Oral History Collection consists of interviews with politically prominent Georgians conducted by Bob Short from 2006 to 2016. Interviewees include former governors, members of both the U.S. and Georgia Congresses, secretaries of state, lobbyists, journalists, lawyers, activists, and relatives of prominent politicians. Included with these oral histories are a few public programs recorded at Young Harris College in 2006-2007. Most interviews were recorded in the homes and offices of interviewees or in the Bob Short Oral History Studio at the University of Georgia. The conversations cover many topics at the intersection of politics and public life in modern Georgia, with a particular strength in gubernatorial contests, the Civil Rights movement, reapportionment, the development of Atlanta, the rise of the Republican party in Georgia, political journalism, and the interaction between religion and politics.<br /><br /><a href="http://georgiaoralhistory.libs.uga.edu/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=&range=&collection=9&type=&tags=OHMS&featured=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">View all OHMS indexed interviews in this collection here. </a>
Creator
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Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Publisher
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Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Date
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2006-2016
Rights
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http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
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Oral histories
Identifier
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RBRL220ROGP
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Georgia
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
OHMS Object
Contains the OHMS link to the XML file within the OHMS viewer.
https://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL220ROGP-132/ohms
OHMS Object Text
Contains OHMS index and/or transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable.
5.3 Interview with Laughlin McDonald, February 6, 2012 RBRL220ROGP-132 RBRL220ROGP Reflections on Georgia Politics Oral History Collection ROGP 132 Interview with Laughlin McDonald finding aid Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies, University of Georgia Laughlin McDonald Bob Short 0 http://youtu.be/ANN7-1RwwHM YouTube video 23 Introduction I'm Bob Short, and this is Reflections on Georgia Politics, sponsored by Young Harris College and the Richard Russell Library at the University of Georgia. Interviewer Bob Short introduces interviewee Laughlin McDonald 17 51 Early life and family Winnsboro, South Carolina... McDonald recalls growing up in a small South Carolina town that was segregated along both racial and socioeconomic lines, and discusses his parents, who were civically engaged and segregationist. Board of Education ; Charles Cornwallis ; Class conflict ; Columbia College ; Columbia, South Carolina ; Community concerts ; Democratic party ; Glee club ; Ireland ; Majority black population ; Racial segregation ; Revolutionary War ; Scotland ; State Correctional Board ; Strom Thurmond ; Textile industry ; Welfare Board ; Winnsboro Cotton Mill ; Working class 17 411 Undergraduate education at Columbia University Then you went to Columbia University. McDonald discusses his desire to leave his provincial town to enroll in a progressive institution, ultimately choosing Columbia, where he was disappointed at the lack of diversity among the student body. African-American ; Art Rosenbaum ; Carson McCullers ; Charlotte, North Carolina ; Columbia Kingsmen ; Culture shock ; Davidson College ; F. Scott Fitzgerald ; Integration ; New York City ; New York metropolitan area ; New York, New York ; Princeton University ; Provincialism ; Rural ; Southern Railroad ; Southern writers ; University of South Carolina ; Urban ; William Faulkner 17 747 Being drafted into the military When did you decide you wanted to become a lawyer? McDonald speaks about his experience in the U.S. Army prior to entering law school, and recalls several incidents of racial discrimination in the military. Artillery school ; Baseball ; Basic training ; Berlin, Germany ; Company commander ; Desegregation ; Draft notice ; E1 ; Fort Benning, Georgia ; Fort Jackson, South Carolina ; Fort Lewis, Washington ; Infantry school ; Military service ; Officer Candidate School ; Private first class ; Second lieutenant ; Staff sargeant ; U.S. Army 17 991 Entering law school University of Virginia... McDonald tells of his initial enrollment at the University of South Carolina's law school, where there were no black students and one female student, and his subsequent transfer to the University of Virginia. Charlottesville, Virginia ; Fraternities ; Gender discrimination ; James River ; USC ; UVA ; Yale University 17 1123 Working as a musician What happened after that? McDonald describes some of the musical positions he held during and just after his law school enrollment, which ultimately led to his first position as legal counsel on Hilton Head Island, where he previously sang in a hotel bar. Augusta, Georgia ; Boys choir ; Gilbert & ; Sullivan Society ; Golf courses ; Greenwich Village ; Guitar ; Hilton Head Island ; Octet ; Quartet ; Right-wing ; Sea Pines ; Sextet ; St. Thomas Episcopal Church ; Staff attorney ; Tennis ; William Hilton Inn 17 1431 Rallying for a position with the ACLU And, as it turned out--I'm a tennis player too--and, uh, there was a woman who worked at the Sea Pines office who had a cousin who was a Quaker who was then director of the Penn Center... McDonald describes his initial introduction to the director of the Southern regional office of the ACLU and his ultimately successful attempts to be hired there. 16th Street Baptist Church bombing ; American Civil Liberties Union ; Birmingham, Alabama ; Charles Morgan ; Civil Rights Act of 1964 ; Freed slaves ; Frogmore, South Carolina ; Keynote speech ; KKK ; Ku Klux Klan ; Operation Southern Justice ; Penn Center ; Penn School ; Quaker ; Sea Island, South Carolina 17 1716 History of the ACLU and its primary activities Some of us (clears throat)--excuse me--some of us, some of us are familiar with the ACLU and others may not be. McDonald describes some of the key legal issues taken on by the ACLU, including voting rights and work to desegregate schools, prisons, and juries. 13th Amendment ; 14th Amendment ; Anti-war ; Brown v. Board of Education ; Constitution ; Death penalty ; Death row ; Due process ; Equal protection ; Federal court ; First amendment ; Frank Minis Johnson Jr. ; Juries ; Prison ; Race riots ; State statute ; U.S. Supreme Court ; Voting Rights Act 17 2118 Voting rights issues When did you first get interested in voting rights? McDonald describes how he came to specialize in issues of voting rights at the ACLU. Gerrymandering ; Grey v. Sanders ; Nichols v. Hopkins ; One person, one vote ; Reconstruction ; Redistricting ; Reynolds v. Sims ; Supreme Court brief ; White South 17 2249 The Civil Rights Movement / Confrontations in the South Were you involved in the Civil Rights Movement? Despite a deep conviction in equal rights for all, McDonald reveals that he was not active in the Civil Rights Movement as a soldier or law student ; he further contrasts his experiences working in progressive Atlanta versus other areas in the South. Assault ; Atlanta, Georgia ; Civil Rights march ; Legal memorandum ; Martin Luther King Jr. ; Progressive politics ; Protest ; Racial bias ; Sit-in ; Southern Regional Council ; Vernon Jordon 17 2570 Politics at the ACLU You, you've tried cases all over the South. McDonald discusses trying cases in primarily federal courts under judges often appointed by right-wing politicians and how he navigates personal politics as an employee of the non-partisan ACLU. " ; The bench" ; ; Conservative ; Diplomacy ; Federal court ; Federal judiciary ; Partisan ; Political appointees ; State court ; State senate 17 2750 Southern politics and civil rights Seems like that over the years that civil rights all over the South has been more of a political than a social question. McDonald speaks about the legacy of the segregationist Southern Democrats and and touches on the white flight that accompanied the Civil Rights Movement. Black ghettos ; Dixiecrats ; George Wallace ; Majority black district ; Political consequence ; Re-segregation ; Republicans ; Southern strategy 17 2879 Current issues with voter registration / Voting Rights Act What is your opinion of today's voting methods? McDonald stresses his belief in making voting as easily accessible as possible and opines that online voting may be possible if privacy concerns could be addressed. McDonald explains Section 2 of the Voting Rights Act, which prohibits drawing election districts in ways that improperly dilute minorities’ voting power. McDonald details Section 5 of the Voting Rights Act, which requires certain states, including Georgia, to get federal approval before changing voting or election laws to ensure they do not have a harmful impact on minority voters. Absentee ballots ; Early voting ; Electronic voter registration ; Internet privacy ; No-fault absentee ballot ; Online voting ; Privacy issues ; Same-day voter registrations ; Technology 17 3716 Impact of the Voting Rights Act in the South Let me ask you this question: Are you pleased with the effect that the Voting Rights Act has had in the South? McDonald opines that while the Voters Right Act has not solved the political oppression of minority groups, its impact has been significant and positive. Census map ; Council commission ; County government ; House of Representatives ; Local government ; Malapportionment ; misapportionment ; Racial attitudes ; Racial language ; Racial polarization ; Reapportionment 17 3976 Controversy over voter identification requirements Big fight going on now in Georgia between the Democratic party and the Republican party over the use of voter identification. McDonald speaks about the legality of voter identification requirements, which he believes unfairly targets minorities, the elderly, the disabled, and the poor, and states that fears of voter fraud are unfounded. Attorney General ; Austin, Texas ; Barack Obama ; Cathy Cox ; Crawford v. Marion County Election Board ; Equal protection ; Eric Holder ; George W. Bush ; Georgia Secretary of State ; ID card ; Indiana ; Injunction ; MLK Center ; Nikki Haley ; Obama administration ; Perjury ; Photo identification ; Poll tax ; Sonny Purdue ; Veto ; Voter Fraud ; Voter suppression 17 4424 Authoring book on the history of voting rights issues in Georgia Let's talk about your book. McDonald discusses writing and publishing his book, A VOTING RIGHTS ODYSSEY: BLACK ENFRANCHISEMENT IN GEORGIA. Archives ; Cambridge University Press ; Dissertation ; Elected officials ; Indian country ; Legal tome ; Litigation ; Non-fiction ; Readability ; Thesis 17 4639 Motivation in civil rights work You have boundless energy ; where does it come from? McDonald speaks about the satisfaction he derives from his work and tells an anecdote about being part of a lawsuit filed against the South Carolina Board of Corrections, of which his father was a member. Board of Corrections ; Conflict of interest ; Consent decree ; Declaratory judgment ; Execution ; Prison ; Prisoners ; Settlement 17 4932 Other writing activities So you love your job. McDonald discusses some of his other writing work, including a book on voting issues concerning American Indians. American Indians ; Coverage formula ; Indian rights ; Leo Tolstoy ; Literature ; Paperback ; Public debate ; Reading ; University of Oklahoma Press ; War and Peace 17 5113 Creative aspirations / Strides made in civil rights If you weren't where you are today, where would you like to be? McDonald speaks about his desire to record songs and his creative writing accomplishments and aspirations ; he also discusses the work yet to be done in civil rights and voting issues. 12 apostles ; Audio recording ; Bavarian ; Bull Connor ; Fiction ; French ; George Washington ; Germans ; Gulags ; Middle East ; Mohammed ; Music ; Novels ; Poems ; Poetry ; Polish ; Rosa Parks ; Short stories ; Thomas Jefferson 17 5352 Personal and professional influences If I ask you what people have had the most impact on your life, what would you say? McDonald names some of the individuals who have influenced his life's course, from his segregationist parents to his ACLU mentor. Black entrance ; Dylan Thomas ; Footnotes ; Live from the Met ; Maid ; Metropolitan Opera ; Public affairs ; T.S. Eliot ; Thomas Ketchum McDonald 17 5718 Notable cases with the ACLU What do you consider your greatest achievement with ACLU? Though McDonald indicates that it's difficult to pick out particularly notable work in his time at the ACLU, he recalls a gender discrimination case on which he worked early in his career. Bill McDonald ; Equal protection clause ; Eslinger v. Thomas ; Fourth circuit ; Gender discrimination ; Law clerk ; Receptionist ; Senate page ; Victoria Lamonte Eslinger 17 5886 Disappointing court decisions Biggest disappointment. McDonald reveals that not all cases the ACLU takes on are tried successfully, and discusses a particular disappointment stemming from a Georgia case involving a sole commissioner form of government. Bleckley County, Georgia ; Christopher Coates ; Holder v. Hall ; Jackie Holder ; Moot court ; Remedial standard ; State law 17 6074 Goals for the future Well except for singing ballads, what lies ahead of Laughlin McDonald? McDonald discusses some of his future creative plans, notably working on long-form poetry. Creative writing ; Marriage ; Mourning ; Period piece ; THE WASTELAND 17 6144 Conclusion Well, we certainly appreciate you being with us. Short and McDonald conclude the interview. 17 Oral History No transcript. Resources may be used under the guidelines described by the U.S. Copyright Office in Section 107, Title 17, United States Code (Fair use). Parties interested in production or commercial use of the resources should contact the Russell Library for a fee schedule. video 0 RBRL220ROGP-132.xml RBRL220ROGP-132.xml http://russelldoc.galib.uga.edu/russell/view?docId=ead/RBRL220ROGP-ead.xml http://russelldoc.galib.uga.edu/russell/view?docId=ead/RBRL220ROGP.132-ead.xml
Repository
Name of repository the interview is from
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Laughlin McDonald, February 6, 2012
Identifier
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RBRL220ROGP-132
Creator
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Laughlin McDonald
Bob Short
Format
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video
oral histories
Rights
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http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Georgia
Subject
The topic of the resource
Political activists
Election law
Civil rights
United States--Civil rights
Description
An account of the resource
Laughlin McDonald has been director of the Atlanta-based Voting Rights Project of the American Civil Liberties Union since 1972. Prior to that he was in private practice and taught at the University of North Carolina Law School. He has represented racial and language minorities in numerous discrimination cases and specialized in the area of voting rights. He has argued cases before the U.S. Supreme Court, testified frequently before Congress, and written for scholarly and popular publications on civil liberties issues. His most recent books are A Voting Rights Odyssey: Black Enfranchisement in Georgia, and American Indians and the Fight for Equal Voting Rights. He is a South Carolina native, received a B.A. from Columbia University in 1960, and a LL.B from the University of Virginia in 1965. McDonald Discusses his work with the ACLU, the imporance of litigation in civil rights struggles, and his personal life.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2012-02-06
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
moving image
OHMS
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Reflections on Georgia Politics Oral History Collection
Subject
The topic of the resource
Georgia--History
Georgia--Politics and government
Politics and Public Policy
Description
An account of the resource
The Reflections on Georgia Politics Oral History Collection consists of interviews with politically prominent Georgians conducted by Bob Short from 2006 to 2016. Interviewees include former governors, members of both the U.S. and Georgia Congresses, secretaries of state, lobbyists, journalists, lawyers, activists, and relatives of prominent politicians. Included with these oral histories are a few public programs recorded at Young Harris College in 2006-2007. Most interviews were recorded in the homes and offices of interviewees or in the Bob Short Oral History Studio at the University of Georgia. The conversations cover many topics at the intersection of politics and public life in modern Georgia, with a particular strength in gubernatorial contests, the Civil Rights movement, reapportionment, the development of Atlanta, the rise of the Republican party in Georgia, political journalism, and the interaction between religion and politics.<br /><br /><a href="http://georgiaoralhistory.libs.uga.edu/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=&range=&collection=9&type=&tags=OHMS&featured=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">View all OHMS indexed interviews in this collection here. </a>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2006-2016
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Oral histories
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL220ROGP
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Georgia
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
OHMS Object
Contains the OHMS link to the XML file within the OHMS viewer.
https://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL220ROGP-133/ohms
OHMS Object Text
Contains OHMS index and/or transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable.
5.3 Interview with Julian Bond, February 27, 2012 RBRL220ROGP-133 RBRL220ROGP Reflections on Georgia Politics Oral History Collection Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies, University of Georgia Julian Bond Bob Short 0 video Oral History No transcript. Resources may be used under the guidelines described by the U.S. Copyright Office in Section 107, Title 17, United States Code (Fair use). Parties interested in production or commercial use of the resources should contact the Russell Library for a fee schedule. video 0 RBRL220ROGP-133.xml RBRL220ROGP-133.xml http://russelldoc.galib.uga.edu/russell/view?docId=ead/RBRL220ROGP-ead.xml
Repository
Name of repository the interview is from
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Julian Bond, February 27, 2012
Identifier
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RBRL220ROGP-133
Creator
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Julian Bond
Bob Short
Format
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video
oral histories
Rights
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http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Georgia
Subject
The topic of the resource
African Americans--History
Political activists
Civil rights
Student movements
Civil rights demonstrations
State governments--Officials and employees
African American politicians
United States--Civil rights
Description
An account of the resource
Julian Bond was a civil rights activist who held leadership roles in several organizations, including the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee (SNCC), the Southern Poverty Law Center, and the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP). He helped organize civil rights activities such as sit-ins, protests, and voter registration drives across Georgia. He also held public office as a member of the Georgia House, and, later, senate. In this interview, Bond discusses his early years, his education at Morehouse College, and his involvement in the civil rights movement, including his activities with the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee (SNCC). He talks about the racial and political climate in Atlanta in the 1960s. Bond also describes his experience in the political arena as a member of the Georgia House of Representatives and, later, the Georgia senate.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2012-02-27
Type
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moving image
OHMS
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Reflections on Georgia Politics Oral History Collection
Subject
The topic of the resource
Georgia--History
Georgia--Politics and government
Politics and Public Policy
Description
An account of the resource
The Reflections on Georgia Politics Oral History Collection consists of interviews with politically prominent Georgians conducted by Bob Short from 2006 to 2016. Interviewees include former governors, members of both the U.S. and Georgia Congresses, secretaries of state, lobbyists, journalists, lawyers, activists, and relatives of prominent politicians. Included with these oral histories are a few public programs recorded at Young Harris College in 2006-2007. Most interviews were recorded in the homes and offices of interviewees or in the Bob Short Oral History Studio at the University of Georgia. The conversations cover many topics at the intersection of politics and public life in modern Georgia, with a particular strength in gubernatorial contests, the Civil Rights movement, reapportionment, the development of Atlanta, the rise of the Republican party in Georgia, political journalism, and the interaction between religion and politics.<br /><br /><a href="http://georgiaoralhistory.libs.uga.edu/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=&range=&collection=9&type=&tags=OHMS&featured=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">View all OHMS indexed interviews in this collection here. </a>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2006-2016
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Oral histories
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL220ROGP
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Georgia
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
OHMS Object
Contains the OHMS link to the XML file within the OHMS viewer.
https://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL220ROGP-139/ohms
OHMS Object Text
Contains OHMS index and/or transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable.
5.3 Interview with John Lewis, May 12, 2012 RBRL220ROGP-139 RBRL220ROGP Reflections on Georgia Politics Oral History Collection ROGP 139 Interview with John Lewis finding aid Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies, University of Georgia John Lewis Bob Short 0 http://youtu.be/y4RK3pIiLSM YouTube video English 28 Introduction I'm Bob Short, and this is Reflections on Georgia Politics, sponsored by the Russell Library at the University of Georgia for Political Research and Studies and the Duckworth Library at Young Harris College. Interviewer Bob Short introduces interviewee John Lewis. 17 64 Early life and education John Robert Lewis from rural Pike County in South Alabama--that's where it all began. Lewis describes his early life in rural, segregated Alabama and meeting the major players in the burgeoning Civil Rights Movement as a young man. American Baptist College ; Brown v. Board of Education ; Busing ; Corn crop ; Cotton crop ; First Baptist Church ; Fred Gray ; Freedom Rides ; Livestock ; Martin Luther King Jr. ; Ministry ; Montgomery, Alabama ; Nashville, Tennessee ; Patience ; Poultry ; Ralph Abernathy ; Rosa Parks ; Rural ; Segregation ; Seminary ; Sharecropper ; Sharecropping ; Social justice ; Tenant farming ; Troy State University ; Troy, Alabama ; Tuskegee, Alabama 17 344 Student activism in Nashville Let's talk about your activities in Nashville. Lewis discusses attending civil rights meetings with black and white students from many Nashville schools and beginning sit-ins in fall 1959, prior to the famous Greensboro, N.C. sit-ins of 1960. American Baptist Theological Seminary ; Civil disobedience ; Fisk University ; Greensboro, North Carolina ; Henry David Thoreau ; Integration ; Jim Crow laws ; Mahatma Gandhi ; Meharry Medical College ; Nashville Student Movement ; Non-violence ; Non-violent protest ; Peabody College ; Religion ; Role-playing ; Scarritt College ; Sit-in movement ; Social justice ; Student protests ; Tennessee State University ; Vanderbilt University 17 469 Mentor James Lawson / Ministry aspirations James Lawson. Lewis praises activist James Lawson, under whom he studied in Nashville, and tells an anecdote about preaching to his chickens while growing up on his family's farm. Chicken coop ; Chicken yard ; Congregation ; Korean War ; Lunch counter demonstrations ; Mentor ; Methodism ; Methodist minister ; Ministry ; Pacifism ; Pacifist ; Participation ; Shyness ; SNCC ; Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee 17 639 Confrontations during the Nashville protests Okay, back to Nashville: Diane Nash... Lewis describes some of the aggression and violence perpetrated against the protestors during the Nashville sit-ins and protests. Arrest ; C.T. Vivian ; Disorderly conduct ; Jail ; Legislation ; Liberation ; March on Washington ; Mass movement ; Mississippi summer ; Nashville City Jail ; Religious leader ; Southern Christian Leadership Conference ; Student leader ; Thurgood Marshall ; Trumped-up charges ; United States Supreme Court ; Withdrawal campaign 17 946 Assault and reconciliation on the Freedom Rides Let's start with the Freedom Rides. Lewis speaks about his experiences as one of the original thirteen Freedom Riders and tells of how, forty years later, one of the white men who beat him at a bus station apologized to him in Lewis's Washington, D.C. office. ; he also indicates that the Freedom Rides encountered no issues in Georgia. Assault ; Charlotte, North Carolina ; Confederacy ; Freedom Riders ; Georgia ; Greyhound Bus ; Intrastate travel ; Public transportation ; Rock Hill, South Carolina ; Southern states ; Supreme Court decision ; Trailways Bus ; Virginia ; Washington, D.C. 17 1219 Outcome of the Freedom Rides You were in Anniston. Lewis explains that though the Freedom Riders experience violence and jail time for their participation, its effect on desegregation in public transit was swift and final. Alabama state line ; Anniston, Alabama ; Bull Connor ; Fielder City Jail ; Freedom Songs ; Hinds County Prison ; Interstate Commerce Commission ; Jackson, Mississippi ; John F. Kennedy ; Montgomery, Alabama ; Parchman State Penitentiary ; Protective custody ; Robert Kennedy ; Ross Barnett 17 1361 Formation and work of SNCC You were a co-founder and president at one time of the Student Non-Violent Coordinating Committee. Lewis describes the genesis of SNCC, of which he became chair, and its eventual dissolution. Atlanta, Georgia ; Charles McDew ; Chuck McDew ; Easter weekend ; Ella Baker ; Jimmy Carter ; Julian Bond ; Lyndon Johnson ; Marion Barry ; Morehouse College ; Shaw University ; South Carolina State University ; South Georgia ; Student protests ; Voting rights ; We Shall Overcome 17 1659 The power of the black vote / Arrest history Jack Nelson once said that in the south... Lewis opines that the vote is one of the most powerful instruments of change for the civil rights movement and the country, and mentions some of his many arrests as a civil rights activist. Bi-racial ; City council ; City government ; County government ; Elected officials ; Good Samaritan Hall ; Lawrence County, Alabama ; Selma, Alabama ; VEP ; Voter Education Project ; Voter registration ; Waterproof, Louisiana 17 1825 Bloody Sunday (March over Pettus Bridge in Selma, Alabama) So you're standing on the Pettus Bridge in Selma, Alabama... Lewis recalls the famous march through Alabama, in which he was seriously injured, and recites part of the speech Lyndon Johnson gave before signing the Voting Rights Act of 1965. Alabama River ; Alabama State Troopers ; Brown Chapel AME church ; Constitutional rights ; Demonstrations ; Deputies ; Deputized ; Dignity ; Federal court ; Frank M. Johnson ; Gas masks ; George Wallace ; Good Samaritan Hospital ; Hosea Williams ; Military protection ; National politics ; Nightsticks ; Nuns ; Priests ; Rabbis ; Sheriff Jim Clark:Posse ; Southern politics ; Tear gas ; Vietnam War 17 2205 Greatest accomplishments and disappointments Looking back over those years of non-violent protests, is there anything you might have done differently? Lewis summarizes some of the highlights and lowlights of his civil rights career. Asian-Americans ; Education ; Latino-Americans ; Native Americans ; Peace ; Sensitization ; Youth 17 2369 Conclusion Thank you. Short and Lewis conclude the interview. 17 oral history No transcript. Resources may be used under the guidelines described by the U.S. Copyright Office in Section 107, Title 17, United States Code (Fair use). Parties interested in production or commercial use of the resources should contact the Russell Library for a fee schedule. video 0 RBRL220ROGP-139.xml RBRL220ROGP-139.xml http://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL220ROGP/findingaid http://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL220ROGP-139/findingaid
Repository
Name of repository the interview is from
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with John Lewis, May 12, 2012
Identifier
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RBRL220ROGP-139
Creator
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John Lewis
Bob Short
Format
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video
oral histories
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Georgia
Subject
The topic of the resource
African Americans--History
Civil rights
Political activists
African American politicians
United States--Officials and employees
Civil rights demonstrations
Discrimination
Student movements
United States--Civil rights
Description
An account of the resource
John Lewis is best known for his civil rights activism in the 1960s and, since 1986, his work as a U.S. Representative. In this interview John Lewis discusses his early years in rural Alabama and his work as a civil rights leader and U.S. Representative. He covers his early activism and education in non-violence in Nashville as a student of Fisk University's American Baptist Theological Seminary, his participitation in the Freedom Rides, and his work organizing demonstrations as chairman of the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee (SNCC). He discusses his relationships with other civil rights leaders, including Martin Luther King, Jr., Hosea Williams, and James Lawson, and his involvment with sit-ins and marches, including his experiences being assaulted and jailed. He also gives details about his experience in the famous march from Selma to Montgomery in 1965.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2012-05-12
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
moving image
OHMS
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Reflections on Georgia Politics Oral History Collection
Subject
The topic of the resource
Georgia--History
Georgia--Politics and government
Politics and Public Policy
Description
An account of the resource
The Reflections on Georgia Politics Oral History Collection consists of interviews with politically prominent Georgians conducted by Bob Short from 2006 to 2016. Interviewees include former governors, members of both the U.S. and Georgia Congresses, secretaries of state, lobbyists, journalists, lawyers, activists, and relatives of prominent politicians. Included with these oral histories are a few public programs recorded at Young Harris College in 2006-2007. Most interviews were recorded in the homes and offices of interviewees or in the Bob Short Oral History Studio at the University of Georgia. The conversations cover many topics at the intersection of politics and public life in modern Georgia, with a particular strength in gubernatorial contests, the Civil Rights movement, reapportionment, the development of Atlanta, the rise of the Republican party in Georgia, political journalism, and the interaction between religion and politics.<br /><br /><a href="http://georgiaoralhistory.libs.uga.edu/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=&range=&collection=9&type=&tags=OHMS&featured=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">View all OHMS indexed interviews in this collection here. </a>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2006-2016
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Oral histories
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL220ROGP
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Georgia
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
OHMS Object
Contains the OHMS link to the XML file within the OHMS viewer.
https://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL220ROGP-144/ohms
OHMS Object Text
Contains OHMS index and/or transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable.
5.3 Interview with Andrew Young, October 31, 2012 RBRL220ROGP-144 RBRL220ROGP Reflections on Georgia Politics Oral History Collection ROGP 144 Interview with Andrew Young Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies, University of Georgia Andrew Young Bob Short oral history 0 Kaltura video < ; iframe id=" ; kaltura_player" ; src=" ; https://cdnapisec.kaltura.com/p/1727411/sp/172741100/embedIframeJs/uiconf_id/26879422/partner_id/1727411?iframeembed=true& ; playerId=kaltura_player& ; entry_id=1_7nibw62x& ; flashvars[localizationCode]=en& ; flashvars[leadWithHTML5]=true& ; flashvars[sideBarContainer.plugin]=true& ; flashvars[sideBarContainer.position]=left& ; flashvars[sideBarContainer.clickToClose]=true& ; flashvars[chapters.plugin]=true& ; flashvars[chapters.layout]=vertical& ; flashvars[chapters.thumbnailRotator]=false& ; flashvars[streamSelector.plugin]=true& ; flashvars[EmbedPlayer.SpinnerTarget]=videoHolder& ; flashvars[dualScreen.plugin]=true& ; & ; wid=1_367jdde8" ; width=" ; 400" ; height=" ; 285" ; allowfullscreen webkitallowfullscreen mozAllowFullScreen frameborder=" ; 0" ; title=" ; Kaltura Player" ; > ; < ; /iframe> ; English 54 Decision to become a minister / Time in Thomasville You were born in New Orleans during the Depression. Young explains what spurred him to become a preacher instead of studying dentistry, and why he integrated civil rights into his preaching. Young also talks about an incident when he was working as a pastor in Thomasville, Georgia, where he had to face off against the Ku Klux Klan during a voter registration drive. Beachton, Georgia ; business community ; Columbus, Georgia ; John Wesley Dobbs ; medicine ; negotiation ; plantations ; psychology ; seminary ; spiritual problems ; Thomasville, Georgia ; William B. Hartsfield 17 656 Healthcare and race I also remember down there that we had a very good hospital. Young compares the access to healthcare he had at Archibald Memorial Hospital in Thomasville to that which his son is able to receive today. He then details his childhood experiences of dealing with racial disparities. Boy Scouts ; fighting ; Franklin Roosevelt ; Great Depression ; Hill-Burton hospitals ; Jesse Owens ; Nazi Party ; New Orleans, Louisiana ; track running ; white supremacy ; YMCA 17 1100 College education and church conferences Off to college at Howard. Young discusses how his time at Howard University, while enjoyable, left something to be desired from him. He then describes how attending church conferences helped him find that fulfillment. Christianity ; Dillard University ; interracial conference ; Kings Mountain, North Carolina ; Lake Brownwood, Texas ; missionaries ; swimming team ; track team ; University of Southern California 17 1501 Attending seminary in Hartford They assigned me to Hartford, Connecticut. Young remembers his experience learning at the Hartford Seminary Foundation, including his favorite classes and how he covered his cost of attendance. defense bonds ; mutual fund 17 1754 Preaching in Marion, Alabama Your first call was to Marion, Alabama. Young explains why he chose to go to Marion, Alabama for his first job as a preacher, despite his initial reluctance. He then tells of how he came to meet his future wife, Jean Childs, and the influence the town had on his nonviolent stance in civil rights. 1952 Olympic Games ; Coretta Scott King ; interracial church ; janitor ; Mohandas Gandhi ; New York City, New York.Pioneer Track Club ; washing dishes 17 2215 Living in New York / < ; i> ; Look Up and Live< ; /i> ; TV program Well, after Thomasville, you took your family to New York. Young relays his experiences living in New York City and compares it to his time in the South. Young then describes his television series, < ; i> ; Look Up and Live< ; /i> ; , in which he mainly explained struggles in life, including racial issues, to children with a religious overtone. 23rd Street, New York City ; CBS ; Diane Nash ; Harlem, New York ; hostility ; James Bevel ; John Lewis ; Little Rock, Arkansas ; Martin Luther King ; National Council of Churches ; Queens College ; Queens, New York ; segregation ; youth work 17 2748 Moving back south and meeting Martin Luther King And I ended up coming back to Atlanta and working with Martin Luther King. Young elaborates on his choice to move back to the south, and how he ended up working with the Southern Christian Leadership Conference (SCLC). He then talks about getting to know Dr. King, first by answering King's mail for him, then by using his experiences to help King research and travel. Berlin, Germany ; Highlander Folk School ; Savannah, Georgia ; Talladega College 17 3158 Role within SCLC Did you have a title with SCLC? Young details his role within the SCLC, including recruiting community leaders to aid in the civil rights movement. He then discusses how the SCLC and Dr. King became involved with various civil rights demonstrations, such as those in Montgomery, Alabama and Albany, Georgia. Birmingham, Alabama ; Chattanooga, Tennessee ; citizen education ; Dorchester, Georgia ; Dorothy Cotton ; Jackson, Mississippi ; Montgomery Bus Boycott ; Rosa Parks ; Septima Poinsette Clark ; St. Augustine, Florida 17 3579 Educating youth and desegregating business Julian Bond once said this to the < ; i> ; New York Times< ; /i> ; . Young details the tactics the SCLC employed to educate the youth about nonviolence, including showing videos about nonviolent leaders like Gandhi as well as footage of the Nashville sit-ins. He then explains the steps the SCLC took to desegregate businesses in Birmingham, Alabama. boycotts ; David Halberstam ; Fred Shuttlesworth ; lunch counters ; Ralph Abernathy ; Vietnam War 17 4038 Assassination of Dr. King / Service in Congress You didn't want Dr. King to go to Memphis, did you? Young talks about why Dr. King wanted to go to Memphis, and he reflects the effect that that King's assassination had on the civil rights movement. Young then tells of his political career after the civil rights movement, including his brief service as a U.S. Congressman and as a United Nations ambassador. community relationscommission ; democracy ; free enterprise ; human rights ; Jimmy Carter ; Julian Bond ; Memphis, Tennessee ; Operation Breadbasket ; poverty ; racism ; Rhodesia ; Robert Kennedy ; South Africa ; war 17 No transcript. Resources may be used under the guidelines described by the U.S. Copyright Office in Section 107, Title 17, United States Code (Fair use). Parties interested in production or commercial use of the resources should contact the Russell Library for a fee schedule. video 0 RBRL220ROGP-144.xml RBRL220ROGP-144.xml http://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL220ROGP/findingaid http://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL220ROGP-144/findingaid
Repository
Name of repository the interview is from
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Andrew Young, October 31, 2012
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL220ROGP-144
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Andrew Young
Bob Short
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video
oral histories
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Georgia
Subject
The topic of the resource
African Americans--History
African American religious leaders
Civil rights
Discrimination
Religion
Political activists
United States--Officials and employees
African American politicians
Religious leaders
United States--Civil rights
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2012-10-31
Description
An account of the resource
A former member of Congress, U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations, and two-term Mayor of Atlanta, Andrew Young began his political career as a minister and civil rights activist. Young discusses his upbringing in New Orleans, education, early career as a United Church of Christ minister, and civil rights work with Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. and the Southern Christian Leadership Conference. The interviews closes with Young’s memories of Dr. King’s assassination, time in the U.S. House of Representatives in the 1970s, and service as U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations during President Jimmy Carter’s administration.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
moving image
OHMS
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Georgia Environmental Oral History Project
Subject
The topic of the resource
Environmental policy
Politics and Public Policy
Agriculture and Industry
Description
An account of the resource
The Georgia Environmental Oral History Project was started in 2013 via a partnership between the Russell Library and Betsy Bean. The project documents the forces that have shaped and are currently shaping the Georgia landscape, including such topics as environmental activism (with a focus on grassroots activism), legislation related to environmental issues, the environmental history of the Georgia coast, the interplay between conservation, industry, and tourism, the politics of "sustainability," and the relationship between environmental issues and public safety. Early interviews focus on Brunswick and Glynn County including numerous Superfund sites, the development issues surrounding St. Simons Island and Jekyll Island, and the challenges of protecting coastal marshlands.<br /><br />All interviews in this collection have been indexed in OHMS.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2013-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Oral histories
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL345GEOH
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Georgia
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
OHMS Object
Contains the OHMS link to the XML file within the OHMS viewer.
https://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL345GEOH-005/ohms
OHMS Object Text
Contains OHMS index and/or transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable.
5.3 Interview with Nancy Thomason, September 23, 2013 RBRL345GEOH-005 RBRL345GEOH Georgia Environmental Oral History Project Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies, University of Georgia Nancy Thomason Betsy Bean 0 Kaltura video < ; iframe id=" ; kaltura_player" ; src=" ; https://cdnapisec.kaltura.com/p/1727411/sp/172741100/embedIframeJs/uiconf_id/26879422/partner_id/1727411?iframeembed=true& ; playerId=kaltura_player& ; entry_id=1_w6hzk0ar& ; flashvars[leadWithHTML5]=true& ; amp ; flashvars[sideBarContainer.plugin]=true& ; amp ; flashvars[sideBarContainer.position]=left& ; amp ; flashvars[sideBarContainer.clickToClose]=true& ; amp ; flashvars[chapters.plugin]=true& ; amp ; flashvars[chapters.layout]=vertical& ; amp ; flashvars[chapters.thumbnailRotator]=false& ; amp ; flashvars[streamSelector.plugin]=true& ; amp ; flashvars[EmbedPlayer.SpinnerTarget]=videoHolder& ; amp ; flashvars[dualScreen.plugin]=true& ; amp ; & ; wid=1_y5cjmpyb" ; width=" ; 400" ; height=" ; 285" ; allowfullscreen webkitallowfullscreen mozAllowFullScreen frameborder=" ; 0" ; > ; < ; /iframe> ; English 0 Interview Introduction This is the Georgia Environmental Oral History Project. We are in Brunswick at the College of Coastal Georgia. 17 22 Personal background And uh you have been on St. Simons for you say thirty seven years. Tell us a little bit before that, where were you and what brought you down to the coast? Nancy Thomason talks about her unanticipated move from New York to St. Simons, where her father had visited as a member of the Coast Guard. 17 124 Beach renourishment on St. Simons And, and I woke up in a big time, and the issue was beach renourishment. Thomason discusses the process, methodology, and impact of beach renourishment. She further talks about her fight with local government to " ; Save the Beach." ; beach development ; coastal development ; environmental issues ; renourished beaches ; Save the Beach ; Toll Committee 17 614 " ; Save the Beach" ; coalition and beach renourishment education Could you talk a little bit about who was in this coalition? Thomason talks about the volunteer composition of the " ; Save the Beach" ; coalition. Further, she discusses the role of the media in the fight for and against beach renourishment on St. Simons. beach renourishment ; coastal renourishment ; media ; St. Simons 17 709 Informal campaigning and advertisements What did the state DNR think? Thomason talks about the process of creating ads and generating attention for the issue of beach renourishment. She discusses the campaigns of both her " ; Save the Beach" ; coalition and those of the local county-appointed " ; Beach Management" ; committee. Beach Management Committee ; Coastal Management Committee ; Georgia Department of Resources 17 927 Beach renourishment motivation Why did they want to do it, what was their rationale, that they had so much invested in this? Thomason talks about the relationship between beach renourishment, tourism, and commerce. beach protection ; coastal development ; environmental issues ; Sea Island 17 1279 Marsh hammocks on St. Simons So the " ; marsh hammocks," ; is that an issue that came up after that? Thomason talks about her role in " ; Residents United for Planning and Action" ; and the effect of marsh hammocks in coastal Georgia on land planning, including issues of sewage control. coastal development ; coastal marshland ; Man Head Marina ; Manhead Island ; Manhead Sound ; marsh hammocks ; Residents United for Planning and Action ; RUPA ; Savannah ; Southern Environmental Law Center 17 1776 Fundraising and personal investment All of this must have cost money and an enormous amount of time on your part. Thomason talks about the process of acquiring pro bono environmental lawyers, as well as her own personal time investment in the cause of beach renourishment. beach renourishment ; environmental law ; pro bono environmental lawyers ; Southern Environmental Law Center 17 1864 Right Whale protection in coastal Georgia waters So you have here the " ; Right Whale protection," ; what was that particular issue? Thomason talks about education on the Right Whale and its conservation within the waters of the Georgia coast. She further discusses her involvement in a community project to build a Right Whale sculpture in Neptune Park. arts activism ; community arts ; Golden Isles Arts and Humanities ; Keith Jennings ; Neptune Park ; Ocean Society 17 2117 Environmental activism and its consequences How is the business interest in this community? Thomason speaks on the intersection of politics, local law, and the " ; pressure put on" ; those who supported issues of environmental protection, particularly concerning the fight against beach renourishment. coastal Georgia ; environmental activism 17 2275 Current environmental activism in Georgia Well let me ask you this, do you feel like the atmosphere has changed over the twenty or thirty years you've been involved? Thomason talks about the changes implemented by " ; RUPA" ; (Residents United for Planning and Action) and other environmental activism on coastal Georgia and issues of environmental protection in the state of Georgia. coastal development ; environmental activism ; environmental issues ; Georgia environmental issues ; Residents United for Planning and Action ; RUPA ; southern environmental issues 17 2936 Interview Conclusion Okay, well, are there any last minute words, thoughts you'd like to share? 17 Oral History No transcript. Resources may be used under the guidelines described by the U.S. Copyright Office in Section 107, Title 17, United States Code (Fair use). Parties interested in production or commercial use of the resources should contact the Russell Library for a fee schedule. video 0 RBRL345GEOH-005.xml RBRL345GEOH-005.xml http://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL345GEOH/findingaid
Duration
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50 minutes
Location
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Brunswick, Georgia
Repository
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Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
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Title
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Interview with Nancy Thomason, September 23, 2013
Identifier
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RBRL345GEOH-005
Creator
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Nancy Thomason
Betsy Bean
Coverage
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St. Simons, Georgia
Type
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sound
Format
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audio
oral histories
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http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Subject
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Women--Political activity
Community activists
Political activists
Conservation
Description
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Born in New York, Nancy Thomason is the proprietor of Beachview Books on St. Simons Island. Thomason first opened a bookstore on the island in 1976. Since moving to the Georgia coast, Thomason has been involved with various grassroots efforts to protect the marshes and beaches. She was very active in the anti-beach renourishment campaign in the late 1980s-early 1990s. Thomason was elected president of Residents United for Planning and Action (RUPA) and led efforts to protect marsh hammocks.
In this interview, Nancy Thomason discusses how the issue of beach renourishment in the late 1980s galvanized her interest in environmental issues. She discusses various aspects of the anti-beach renourishment campaign, including organizing at a grassroots level, traveling to Atlanta to speak to legislators and the Toll Committee, participating in radio talk shows, putting ads in the local paper, and the challenges of working with the media to get your message out.
Thomason also discusses becoming president of RUPA (Residents United for Planning and Action) and her work to protect marsh hammocks. Specifically, she discusses the proposed Man Head Marina on Man Head Island and how the permit to build on this marsh hammock was ultimately revoked. She discusses tactics used by RUPA and other grassroots organizations and being added to the state committee to study marsh hammocks.Thomason talks about protecting the right whale population off the Georgia Coast and the controversy surrounding the right whale sculpture on St. Simons Island. She discusses the challenges and rewards of grassroots advocacy and the difficulties of keeping a citizens civic group active and involved over a longer period of time.
Date
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2013-09-23
OHMS
-
Dublin Core
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Title
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Georgia Environmental Oral History Project
Subject
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Environmental policy
Politics and Public Policy
Agriculture and Industry
Description
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The Georgia Environmental Oral History Project was started in 2013 via a partnership between the Russell Library and Betsy Bean. The project documents the forces that have shaped and are currently shaping the Georgia landscape, including such topics as environmental activism (with a focus on grassroots activism), legislation related to environmental issues, the environmental history of the Georgia coast, the interplay between conservation, industry, and tourism, the politics of "sustainability," and the relationship between environmental issues and public safety. Early interviews focus on Brunswick and Glynn County including numerous Superfund sites, the development issues surrounding St. Simons Island and Jekyll Island, and the challenges of protecting coastal marshlands.<br /><br />All interviews in this collection have been indexed in OHMS.
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Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Publisher
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Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Date
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2013-
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http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
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Oral histories
Identifier
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RBRL345GEOH
Coverage
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Georgia
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
OHMS Object
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https://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL345GEOH-007/ohms
OHMS Object Text
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5.3 Interview with Daniel Parshley, September 24, 2013 RBRL345GEOH-007 RBRL345GEOH Georgia Environmental Oral History Project Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies, University of Georgia Daniel Parshley Betsy Bean 0 Kaltura video < ; iframe id=" ; kaltura_player" ; src=" ; https://cdnapisec.kaltura.com/p/1727411/sp/172741100/embedIframeJs/uiconf_id/26879422/partner_id/1727411?iframeembed=true& ; playerId=kaltura_player& ; entry_id=1_0xsgdcef& ; flashvars[leadWithHTML5]=true& ; amp ; flashvars[sideBarContainer.plugin]=true& ; amp ; flashvars[sideBarContainer.position]=left& ; amp ; flashvars[sideBarContainer.clickToClose]=true& ; amp ; flashvars[chapters.plugin]=true& ; amp ; flashvars[chapters.layout]=vertical& ; amp ; flashvars[chapters.thumbnailRotator]=false& ; amp ; flashvars[streamSelector.plugin]=true& ; amp ; flashvars[EmbedPlayer.SpinnerTarget]=videoHolder& ; amp ; flashvars[dualScreen.plugin]=true& ; amp ; & ; wid=1_3265aapu" ; width=" ; 400" ; height=" ; 285" ; allowfullscreen webkitallowfullscreen mozAllowFullScreen frameborder=" ; 0" ; > ; < ; /iframe> ; English 0 Interview Introduction This is the Georgia Environmental Oral History Project, number seven, with Daniel Parshley, who is Project Manager with the Glynn Environmental Coalition. 17 22 Personal background Daniel, you came to the area some years ago. Parshley talks about his personal history as the son of an aeronautical engineer in Niagra Falls, New York, and his move to Brunswick, GA in 1973. He further discusses his background in commercial fishing, editorial writing, and marine research. Brunswick, GA ; Georgia ; Glynn Environmental Coalition ; marine research 17 113 Founding of the Glynn Environmental Coalition in 1989 And were you one of the founders of the coalition, or were there other founders and you were drawn to their meetings and then you got involved? Parshley talks about the founding of the Glynn Environmental Coalition by " ; a group of concerned citizens" ; in Glynn County and the various early projects of the group. He further discusses the political activism of the group and their effect on the Glynn County community and legislature in the 1990s. air quality ; Audubon Society ; beach renourishment ; coastal wetlands ; Earth Day ; environmental activism ; environmental issues ; estuaries ; estuary protection ; Glynn County School System ; Glynn Environmental Coalition ; Golden Isles Elementary School ; Greenpeace ; local activism ; outdoor classroom ; pollution ; public health ; superfund sites ; superfunds ; wetland protection 17 530 Hercules 009 Landfill NPL Site Well, why don't we try and delve a little deeper into one of the projects that you dealt with, and perhaps Hercules would be the one, since it was one of the first? Parshley talks about the various acts of pollution and contamination resulting from the Hercules 009 Landfill NPL Site originating in the 1948 to 1980. These include the pesticide manufacturing facility and landfill itself, manufacturing waste discharge into Terry Creek and Dupree Creek that occurred from 1948 to 1970, and disposal of waste in the T Street Dump, the Old Sterling Landfill, etc. Back River ; Dupree Creek ; Hercules, Inc. ; manufacturing waste ; pesticide manufacture ; pesticide pollution ; pesticides ; pollutant runoff ; pollutants ; river pollution ; T Street Dump ; Terry Creek ; water pollution 17 649 Project managing the cleanup of superfund sites And I suppose we need to identify " ; Hercules," ; who they are, what they manufacture, before we go much further. Parshley describes his work as a project manager for the Glynn Environmental Coalition in working with the Hercules " ; superfund site." ; aquifer contamination ; Ashland ; Ashland, Inc. ; community activism ; environmental activism ; Environmental Protection Agency ; ground water contamination ; Hercules ; Hercules, Inc. ; pesticide companies ; pesticides ; public health ; superfund ; superfund site ; waste containment 17 951 Gathering technical assistance and evidence, staging community meetings And when you say you all were naive, you thought this would be a fairly straight-forward process, you were gonna do what you needed to do to provide oversight and to educate the public based on your resources? Parshley talks about the process of gathering technical assistance to develop a plan for the cleanup of the Hercules superfund site. He further discusses the process of involving the community in moving forward with the plan, as well as the actions of the state and Environmental Protection Agency in opposition to their activism. Christine Todd Whitman ; Environmental Protection Agency ; Environmental Protection Agency Ombudsman ; EPA Ombudsman ; Glynn Environmental Coalition ; superfund cleanup ; superfunds ; toxaphene ; toxaphene pollution 17 1808 Uncovering suspect documents between Hercules, Inc. and the Environmental Protection Agency So what was the upshot of all of this, after this five or six years? Parshley talks about the process of uncovering the " ; corruption" ; within documents circulated amongst Hercules, Inc. employees and environmental operating permits held by the company. community activism ; environmental activism ; environmental issues ; environmental law ; environmental permits ; Environmental Protection Division ; Glynn Environmental Coalition ; pesticide pollution ; pollution 17 2494 Pesticide industry employees -- some people, fearful that the company would shut down or they would lose their jobs ; talk a little bit about the whole employment situation and how some of the " ; folks" ; who worked there, their response. Parshley talks about pesticide company employees fighting for the pesticide industry, and discusses his efforts to prevent further contamination and public health hazards created by pesticide companies. He also talks about the role of the media in this battle between business and environmental protection, and the political and personal danger of being involved in Glynn County community activism of environmental issues. environmental activism ; environmental issues ; Glynn Environmental Coalition ; Hercules, Inc. ; pesticide industry ; pesticide pollution 17 2989 Other environmental issues tackled by the Glynn County Environmental Coalition in 1992 Well maybe this is the point to say, sort of, " ; Hercules" ; kicked off the organization, but other issues evolved and came to the forefront? Parshley discusses other projects in which the Glynn County Environmental Coalition became involved in the early 1990s, including a variety of projects in which chemical and pesticide pollutants contaminated local schools. Benson Group ; coastal development ; Environmental Protection Project ; Glynn County School Board ; Glynn County Solid Waste Advisory Committee ; Glynn Environmental Coalition ; Habersham Street Landfill ; Hercules, Inc. ; Jekyll Island ; LCP Chemicals ; LCP, Inc. ; privatization of solid waste ; warf development ; waste industry ; waste industry privatization 17 3349 LCP Chemicals and February 2, 1994 closing as designated superfund site Okay. Well, before we go much further, you brought up LCP and I think we should, whoever listens to this needs to understand what LCP stood for perhaps, if you know, and what it was, what company it was. Parshley talks about the LCP chemicals company, their various products, and the chemical processes (and resulting contaminated runoff) involved in the making of said products. He further discusses their designation as a superfund site and subsequent closing. chemical contaminants ; chemicals leaching ; coastal contamination ; environmental law ; environmental lawsuits ; LCP Chemicals ; marsh contamination ; mercury contamination ; plant closing ; pollution ; soil contamination ; superfund site ; superfunds 17 3601 LCP Chemicals employees Well you mentioned earlier that you had gotten threats on your life. What was happening there in terms of the employees at LCP? Parshley talks about the employees of the LCP chemical company, their threats on his life, and the urine analysis records proving the mercury poisoning of these employees by LCP. employee neglect ; environmental law ; Environmental Protection Agency ; Glynn Environmental Commission ; LCP Chemicals ; mercury contamination 17 3904 Funding for the Glynn Environmental Commission So you all continued to get these " ; technical assistance grants" ; ? Parshley discusses the funding for the Glynn Environmental Coalition and the acquisition of " ; technical assistance grants" ; to fund their projects. environmental funding ; environmental nonprofits ; environmental protection grants ; Glynn Environmental Coalition ; nonprofit funding ; technical assistance grants 17 4063 Mercury poisoning and " ; Mad Hatter's Syndrome" ; prevalent within African American communities Right, okay. And you and I talked, touched on this a little bit in our initial conversation, that the African American community has been deeply affected by some of this pollution, because they were right in those neighborhoods, and wondered if you could talk just a little bit about the communication issues there? Parshley talks about the repeated mercury exposure to the African American community, " ; Mad Hatter's syndrome" ; as a result of the mercury poisoning, and the abuse and oppression by the Environmental Protection Agency and the " ; LCP" ; chemicals company of these African American communities. He further discusses the resulting oppression of the African American community and children who have been consistently contaminated by mercury from kindergarten to fifth grade. African American communities ; African American issues ; biological toxicity ; chemical contamination ; classism ; community injustice ; Mad hatter disease ; Mad Hatter's syndrome ; mercury contamination ; mercury poisoning ; mercury toxicity ; minority oppression ; minority victimization ; social justice 17 4646 Collaboration of local environmental nonprofits Well, over the years, there have just been a lot of big issues here that " ; GEC" ; has dealt with. Parshley talks on the diversity of environmental nonprofits locally and nationally, and the developed credibility of the Glynn Environmental Coalition. He further discusses the media environment and the reception of other environmental agencies by local officials and businesses (including Coca-Cola). air pollution ; Altamaha Riverkeeper ; Audubon Society ; classism ; Coca-Cola ; community activism ; environmental nonprofits ; Glynn Environmental Coalition ; local environmental protection ; minority oppression ; Ogeechee Riverkeeper ; Satilla Riverkeeper ; Savannah Riverkeeper ; Sierra Club ; social justice ; tree initiatives 17 5038 Interview Conclusion Well, on that note, we'll conclude this interview. Thank you so much, Daniel. 17 Oral History Resources may be used under the guidelines described by the U.S. Copyright Office in Section 107, Title 17, United States Code (Fair use). Parties interested in production or commercial use of the resources should contact the Russell Library for a fee schedule. video 0 RBRL345GEOH-007.xml RBRL345GEOH-007.xml http://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL345GEOH/findingaid
Duration
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84 minutes
Location
The location of the interview
Brunswick, Georgia
Repository
Name of repository the interview is from
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Daniel Parshley, September 24, 2013
Identifier
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RBRL345GEOH-007
Creator
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Daniel Parshley
Betsy Bean
Coverage
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Glynn County, Georgia
Type
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sound
Format
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audio
oral histories
Rights
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http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Subject
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Nonprofit organizations
Political activists
Environmental health
Discrimination
Description
An account of the resource
Daniel Parshley was born in Niagara Falls, New York, as the son of an aeronautical engineer. His childhood was spent in California and Connecticut where he graduated from high school and attended college. Brunswick, Georgia, has been Parshley's home since 1973.
Parshley's first environmental work and education was in wastewater treatment soon after arriving in Georgia. When the Glynn Environmental Coalition (GEC) formed in 1990, Daniel helped write the first of four EPA Technical Assistance Grants for the Superfund Sites in Glynn County and has managed the grants since that time. Soon after graduating from Brunswick College in 1994 he started working in marine research.Currently, Daniel is the President of Parshley Research and Management, manages EPA Grants and daily operations for the GEC, and is involved in three marine research projects. He is also a registered mediator in Georgia.
In this interview, Parshley discusses his early life in Niagara Falls, N.Y., and moving to Brunwick and working as a commercial fisherman and marine researcher. Parshley talks about the inception of the Glynn Environmental Coalition (GEC) in 1989 and early concerns about air quality and Earth Day projects. Parshley talks extensively about GEC, including its stuctrual organization, charter members, and the evolution toward becoming a more politically active organization.
Parshley talks about Superfund sites in Glynn County, including numerous Hercules pollution sites, LCP Chemicals, and chlorine gas at Brunswick High School. Parshley talks about managing the EPA Technical Assistance Grant Program. He discusses the tenor of community meetings and the reaction of the business community to GEC's work. Parshley discusses instances of corruption within the manufacturing plants and the government organizations, as well as the effect of environmental and public health initiatives on jobs and the local economy. He talks about intimidation tactics and the fear of retaliation.Parshley also discusses the effects of pollution on the African American community and outreach efforts by GEC to the African American community, including education about contaminated seafood for substinence fishermen. He talks about Mad Hatter syndrome and effect of race on the response to pollution and public health concerns. Parshley talks about working with other citizens groups and the reputation of the Glynn Environmental Coalition over time.
Date
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2013-09-24
OHMS
-
Dublin Core
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Athens Oral History Project
Description
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The Athens Oral History Project was initiated in 2014 to document modern Athens history, roughly from the mid-twentieth century to the present. Interviews cover topics such as neighborhoods and communities in Athens, civil rights demonstrations, African American history, as well as personal histories of narrators.<br /><br /><span><strong>Content Warning</strong>: Some interviews in this collection contain harmful or distressing content, to include racism, racial violence, and racial slurs.</span><br /><br /><a href="http://georgiaoralhistory.libs.uga.edu/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=&range=&collection=1&type=&tags=OHMS&featured=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">View all OHMS indexed interviews in this collection here.</a>
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Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Publisher
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Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Date
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2014-ongoing
Coverage
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Athens, Georgia
Identifier
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RBRL361AOHP
Subject
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Georgia--History, Local
Georgia--Communities
African Americans--History
Athens Black History
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http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
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Oral histories
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
OHMS Object
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https://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL361AOHP-021/ohms
OHMS Object Text
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Latinx
5 Interview with Iliana Rodriguez, August 5, 2016 RBRL361AOHP-021 RBRL361AOHP Athens Oral History Project AOHP 021 Interview with Iliana Rodriguez finding aid Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies, University of Georgia Iliana Rodriguez Iva Dimitrova oral history 0 Kaltura video < ; iframe id=" ; kaltura_player" ; src=" ; https://cdnapisec.kaltura.com/p/1727411/sp/172741100/embedIframeJs/uiconf_id/26879422/partner_id/1727411?iframeembed=true& ; playerId=kaltura_player& ; entry_id=1_jvmz3z03& ; flashvars[localizationCode]=en& ; flashvars[leadWithHTML5]=true& ; flashvars[sideBarContainer.plugin]=true& ; flashvars[sideBarContainer.position]=left& ; flashvars[sideBarContainer.clickToClose]=true& ; flashvars[chapters.plugin]=true& ; flashvars[chapters.layout]=vertical& ; flashvars[chapters.thumbnailRotator]=false& ; flashvars[streamSelector.plugin]=true& ; flashvars[EmbedPlayer.SpinnerTarget]=videoHolder& ; flashvars[dualScreen.plugin]=true& ; & ; wid=1_sn7u5zs7" ; width=" ; 400" ; height=" ; 285" ; allowfullscreen webkitallowfullscreen mozAllowFullScreen frameborder=" ; 0" ; > ; < ; /iframe> ; English 25 Early life / Elementary school Can you tell me more about where you were born, your family, where you grew up? Rodriguez discusses being born in Houston, Texas and moving to Georgia at an early age. She recalls living with her extended family in an area known as the Los Crescents apartments in Marietta, Georgia, learning English through watching TV, and feeling singled out by being the only one of her cousins in advanced classes. She recalls one time when her parents couldn't help her with a science project, and how that reinforced the idea that she had to forge an academic path on her own. advanced placement ; cousins ; Dunwoody Elementary School ; English as Second Language ; ESL ; family dynamics ; Houston, Texas ; Los Crescents apartments ; Marietta, Georgia ; migration ; Osborne High School ; painting ; poverty 17 552 Negotiating Latina identity and education And then in our middle school there were a lot more Latino students. Rodriguez discusses how being the only Latina in her advanced classes continued on into middle school. She recalls how one year she received two schedules: advanced classes for " ; Iliana" ; and regular classes for " ; Yami" ; (the name she goes by), and how she chose the regular classes so she could be with her friends. Rodriguez also talks about her teachers' attitudes towards her education and one teacher's intervention to encourage her to apply to a magnet school. Campbell IB ; Cobb County ; differentiation ; magnet school ; minority ; Osborne High School ; tokenization 17 885 Magnet school experience So the first day--the way that the magnet program works is that... Rodriguez recalls being bused to Campbell High School and befriending another Mexican student named Claudia. Rodriguez describes her search for belonging, and her internalization of guilt stemming from other Latino students questioning her Mexican identity. She also describes the division between students in Campbell's IB program versus the wider student body. advanced placement ; belonging ; education ; guilt ; identity ; Latina ; Mexico ; segregation ; tiers 17 1082 Adapting to the University of Georgia And then I came to UGA. Rodriguez describes how culture and gender norms factored into her perception of higher education, and the peer pressure to apply to universities that existed in high school. Rodriguez describes her difficult adjustment period at UGA, in which she searched for belonging in campus Latino organizations, ultimately becoming involved with Alternative Spring Break, the starting point for her future involvement in service organizations. Alternative Spring Break ; community service ; culture shock ; gender norms ; Habitat for Humanity ; higher education ; Hispanic Scholarship Fund ; IMPACT UGA ; machismo ; parent expectations ; scholarship ; University of Georgia 17 1640 Deciding on a major What was your next step? Rodriguez talks about the process of choosing her majors in International Affairs and Latin American and Caribbean Studies, and describes the feeling of connection when studying works written by fellow Latino authors. LACSI ; Latin American and Caribbean Studies ; Latino studies ; Pamela Voekel 17 1871 Freedom University / Undocumented Student Alliance My first year I wasn't that aware, but in 2010 when I started college, the Board of Regents decided to ban undocumented students... Rodriguez recalls learning about the ban on undocumented students to the top five public universities in Georgia, and becoming involved with Freedom University, an initiative by UGA professors to provide classes to undocumented students. She describes how she and a friend, Cole Bowman, came up with the idea for a partner organization to Freedom University, which they called the Undocumented Student Alliance. She discusses growing the group from an unregistered, informal presence to a formally-recognized student organization, and describes the process of organizing events and fundraisers, learning how to be an ally to and advocate for undocumented students, and visiting the Stewart Detention Center. advocacy ; Board of Regents ; El Refugio ; Freedom University ; fundraising ; immigration policy ; intentional service ; Jackson County, Georgia ; Pamela Voekel ; public universities ; Stewart Detention Center ; The Dream is Now documentary 17 2579 Evolution of mission of Undocumented Student Alliance What were you thinking over these years? How did your thinking evolve? Rodriguez talks about the evolution of the organization's mission over time to focus more on direct action, civil disobedience, and impacting policy. She recalls participating in one protest in which she and fellow member, Anise Crane, were called in to a meeting with university President Jere Morehead. Jere Morehead ; march ; protest ; UGA Arch ; undocumented students 17 3001 Advocacy outside one's group And then with Freedom University--it's been six years since 2010. Rodriguez mentions that Freedom University continues to exist and to prepare students for application to universities outside of Georgia. Rodriguez also recalls media coverage of the protests and the general atmosphere of disinterestedness surrounding the ban on undocumented students during her time at UGA. She describes the like-minded bubble that develops in social justice groups, and the ways in which organizations can reach out and educate others. advocacy ; Board of Regents ; education ; Policy 4.1.6 ; segregation ; undocumented immigration ; university system of Georgia 17 3315 Casa de Amistad How about we talk now about Casa de Amistad? Rodriguez discusses volunteering as the lead ESL teacher at the non-profit, Casa de Amistad. She describes the process of learning how to teach, tailoring classes to her students' experiences, and supervising other volunteers. She talks about implementing a childcare program for parents, and compares how Casa de Amistad and ALCES (Athens Latino Center for Education and Servies) differ in their organizational structure and approach to issues of education and advocacy in the Latino community. ALCES ; education ; English as Second Language ; hospitality ; non-profit ; roleplaying ; teacher ; teaching ; volunteering 17 4133 American Studies program at Yale You're involved with all those different things during your time at UGA. Rodriguez recalls her professor's encouragement to apply to graduate programs. She discusses deciding between her top two choices: a master's in social work or a doctorate in American Studies. She talks about ultimately choosing the doctorate program, and tailoring her research to Mexican immigration in Georgia and the undocumented student movement. graduate school ; immigration ; interdisciplinary ; research ; scholar 17 4549 Latino activism: New Haven versus Georgia In New Haven or the surrounding area is there a Hispanic community or a Mexican community? Rodriguez describes the culture shock she experienced when she moved to New Haven, Connecticut for graduate school. She talks about the vibrant activitist community in New Haven, and mentions two advocacy organizations: Unidad Latina en Acción and Junta for Progressive Action. She compares those organizations to the ones in Georgia, including the Georgia Latino Alliance for Human Rights (GLAHR) and Georgia Association of Latino Elected Officials (GALEO). Rodriguez discusses the need for more local advocacy organizations in the suburbs, and how access to public transportation factors into political and social mobilization. activism ; advocacy ; demonstration ; migrants ; migration ; protest ; public transportation ; urban vs suburban 17 No transcript. Resources may be used under the guidelines described by the U.S. Copyright Office in Section 107, Title 17, United States Code (Fair use). Parties interested in production or commercial use of the resources should contact the Russell Library for a fee schedule. video 0 http://ohms.libs.uga.edu/viewer.php?cachefile=russell/RBRL361AOHP-021.xml RBRL361AOHP-021.xml http://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL361AOHP/findingaid http://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL361AOHP-021/findingaid
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
90 minutes
Location
The location of the interview
Athens, Georgia
Repository
Name of repository the interview is from
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Iliana Yamileth Rodriguez, August 5, 2016
Identifier
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RBRL361AOHP-021
Format
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audio
oral histories
Subject
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Latinas
Student movements
Political activists
Undocumented students
Latinos
Politics and Public Policy
Description
An account of the resource
While enrolled at the University of Georgia, Iliana Rodriguez recalls becoming informed about the Georgia ban on undocumented students to public colleges and universities, which prompted her involvement in Freedom University. She discusses co-founding the Undocumented Student Alliance, a student ally group in support of Freedom University, and recalls the evolution of the group's mission and activism over time. She discusses having to negotiate her Latina identity and issues of belonging while growing up, but how her background has served to inform her graduate-level research into Mexican immigration in Georgia and the undocumented student movement.
Creator
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Iliana Yamileth Rodriguez
Iva Dimitrova
Date
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2016-08-05
Rights
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http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Type
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sound
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Athens, Georgia
OHMS
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Athens Oral History Project
Description
An account of the resource
The Athens Oral History Project was initiated in 2014 to document modern Athens history, roughly from the mid-twentieth century to the present. Interviews cover topics such as neighborhoods and communities in Athens, civil rights demonstrations, African American history, as well as personal histories of narrators.<br /><br /><span><strong>Content Warning</strong>: Some interviews in this collection contain harmful or distressing content, to include racism, racial violence, and racial slurs.</span><br /><br /><a href="http://georgiaoralhistory.libs.uga.edu/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=&range=&collection=1&type=&tags=OHMS&featured=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">View all OHMS indexed interviews in this collection here.</a>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2014-ongoing
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Athens, Georgia
Identifier
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RBRL361AOHP
Subject
The topic of the resource
Georgia--History, Local
Georgia--Communities
African Americans--History
Athens Black History
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Oral histories
Hyperlink
A link, or reference, to another resource on the Internet.
Location
The location of the interview
Athens, Georgia
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
150 minutes
Repository
Name of repository the interview is from
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Knowa Johnson, Part 1, June 26, 2018
Description
An account of the resource
Knowa D. Johnson and his wife, Mokah Jasmine Johnson, moved from Orlando, Florida to North Atlanta, Georgia in 2009 to expand their network reach and business experience. After 2yrs of co-producing a magazine, working as publicist and operations manager of an independent record label, they brought their background as event producers, media and hip hop entrepreneurs to Athens, Georgia. Their first year in Clarke County, together they founded the Athens Hip Hop Awards, an annual event focused on showcasing hip hop culture and recognizing black-owned business in the community. Years later they founded the Athens Anti-Discrimination Movement (AADM), originally a volunteer-led group that first challenged the discrimination in bars in downtown Athens while pushing for the passing of an anti-discrimination ordinance and civil rights commission. In these interviews, Knowa D. Johnson discusses his growing political involvement in Athens, both as an activist through the AADM group as well as working on political campaigns, including Tabitha Johnson-Green's 2018 campaign for U.S. House of Representatives Dist. 10 and former ACC commissioner Harry Sims' campaign for mayor of Athens in the 2018 midterm election cycle.
Creator
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Knowa Johnson
Christian Lopez
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-06-26
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
oral histories
audio
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL361AOHP-026-01
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Athens, Georgia
Subject
The topic of the resource
African Americans--History
Politics and Public Policy
Georgia--Music
Hip-hop
Community activists
Political activists
Athens Black History
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Athens Oral History Project
Description
An account of the resource
The Athens Oral History Project was initiated in 2014 to document modern Athens history, roughly from the mid-twentieth century to the present. Interviews cover topics such as neighborhoods and communities in Athens, civil rights demonstrations, African American history, as well as personal histories of narrators.<br /><br /><span><strong>Content Warning</strong>: Some interviews in this collection contain harmful or distressing content, to include racism, racial violence, and racial slurs.</span><br /><br /><a href="http://georgiaoralhistory.libs.uga.edu/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=&range=&collection=1&type=&tags=OHMS&featured=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">View all OHMS indexed interviews in this collection here.</a>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2014-ongoing
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Athens, Georgia
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL361AOHP
Subject
The topic of the resource
Georgia--History, Local
Georgia--Communities
African Americans--History
Athens Black History
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Oral histories
Hyperlink
A link, or reference, to another resource on the Internet.
Location
The location of the interview
Athens, Georgia
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
37 minutes
Repository
Name of repository the interview is from
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Knowa Johnson, Part 2, June 29, 2018
Description
An account of the resource
Knowa D. Johnson and his wife, Mokah Jasmine Johnson, moved from Orlando, Florida to North Atlanta, Georgia in 2009 to expand their network reach and business experience. After 2yrs of co-producing a magazine, working as publicist and operations manager of an independent record label, they brought their background as event producers, media and hip hop entrepreneurs to Athens, Georgia. Their first year in Clarke County, together they founded the Athens Hip Hop Awards, an annual event focused on showcasing hip hop culture and recognizing black-owned business in the community. Years later they founded the Athens Anti-Discrimination Movement (AADM), originally a volunteer-led group that first challenged the discrimination in bars in downtown Athens while pushing for the passing of an anti-discrimination ordinance and civil rights commission. In these interviews, Knowa D. Johnson discusses his growing political involvement in Athens, both as an activist through the AADM group as well as working on political campaigns, including Tabitha Johnson-Green's 2018 campaign for U.S. House of Representatives Dist. 10 and former ACC commissioner Harry Sims' campaign for mayor of Athens in the 2018 midterm election cycle.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Knowa Johnson
Christian Lopez
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-06-29
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
oral histories
audio
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL361AOHP-026-02
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Athens, Georgia
Subject
The topic of the resource
African Americans--History
Politics and Public Policy
Georgia--Music
Hip-hop
Community activists
Political activists
Athens Black History
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Athens Oral History Project
Description
An account of the resource
The Athens Oral History Project was initiated in 2014 to document modern Athens history, roughly from the mid-twentieth century to the present. Interviews cover topics such as neighborhoods and communities in Athens, civil rights demonstrations, African American history, as well as personal histories of narrators.<br /><br /><span><strong>Content Warning</strong>: Some interviews in this collection contain harmful or distressing content, to include racism, racial violence, and racial slurs.</span><br /><br /><a href="http://georgiaoralhistory.libs.uga.edu/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=&range=&collection=1&type=&tags=OHMS&featured=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">View all OHMS indexed interviews in this collection here.</a>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2014-ongoing
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Athens, Georgia
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL361AOHP
Subject
The topic of the resource
Georgia--History, Local
Georgia--Communities
African Americans--History
Athens Black History
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Oral histories
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Location
The location of the interview
Athens, Georgia
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
105 minutes
Repository
Name of repository the interview is from
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
URL
<h3><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><a href="http://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL361AOHP-095/audio" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Access Interview </a></span></h3>
OHMS Object
Contains the OHMS link to the XML file within the OHMS viewer.
https://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL361AOHP-095/ohms
OHMS Object Text
Contains OHMS index and/or transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable.
5.4
2023-03-28
Interview with Thomas Oglesby, March 28, 2023
RBRL361AOHP-095
RBRL361AOHP
Athens Oral History Project
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies, University of Georgia
russelluga
Thomas Oglesby
William Breeding
Undefined
0
Kaltura
audio
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0
Childhood / An Early Encounter With Racism
Today is the 28th of March, 2023, and I am here with Mr. Thomas Oglesby.
Oglesby introduces himself and his name, and gives an overview of an early experience with racism in Athens that would become a motivating factor in becoming an activist.
Race Relations; Thomas Jefferson; Slavery; Activism; Family; Step-Parents; Athens, Georgia; 1950’s; Racism
0
575
Early Education / Youthful Mischief
Well, actually, but here’s one of the things that's gonna get, that’s gonna be interesting to ya…
Oglesby shares his experiences in early education and grappling with poverty as a child. He tells the story of himself and a friend turning to thievery throughout their youth as a result of their financial situation.
School; West Broad Street School; Minor Street; Athens, Georgia; Teachers; Truant Officer; Early Education; Poverty; Christmas; Thievery; Property Ownership; Broad Street; Movie Theater; Detectives; Money; Family
0
1264
Introducing Youth Development Centers
…they decided to send us, send me, to a group home…
Oglesby shares his experiences at youth development centers in Augusta and Milledgeville, Georgia. He emphasizes the unequal standards of facilities that resulted from segregation, and describes access to schooling, counseling, work, and sports at the centers.
YDC; Reformatory; Augusta, Georgia; Milledgeville, Georgia; Integration; Inequality; Segregated Facilities; School; Work; Counseling; Dormitory; 1960’s; Fights; Violence; School; Basketball; Racial Composition; Youth Development Campus; Juvie; Juvenile Detention Center
33.087, -83.255
17
Milledgeville Youth Development Center
33.392, -82.006
17
Augusta Youth Development Campus
1696
Dormitory Life at Youth Development Centers
…but they had three different levels of dorms, all the way up to the older guys...
Oglesby discusses the ins and outs of life at the youth development center, from the constant fighting to the age based division of dormitories. He also shares his opinions about the reasons for different treatment of Black people, and recalls the tragic death of one of his Athenian friends from the YDC.
Reformatory; Age; Youth; Adults; Augusta, Georgia; Milledgeville, Georgia; 1960’s; Confrontation; Violence; Prison; Hancock County, Georgia; Fighting; Rockspring; Broad Acres; Athens, Georgia; Racial Composition; Racism; Authority; Activism; Punishment; Homicide; Juvie; Juvenile Detention Center
0
2246
Punishments and Initiations at YDCs
…and uh, they had this thing that they used to punish you with…
Mr. Oglesby explains more of his experiences at the YDC’s including punishments like the “Bull Ring” and the role of initiation. He further draws comparisons between the living situations in the YDC’s of Augusta and Milledgeville.
Youth Development Center; YDC; Reformatory; Augusta, Georgia; Milledgeville, Georgia; Punishment; Discipline; “Bull Ring”; Fighting; Youth; Clans; Adults; Prison; Initiation; Augusta, Georgia; Parents
0
2766
Post-YDC School
But, after that man, after returning from that…
Oglesby recalls his experiences at Burney-Harris-Lyons Middle School following his time at the youth development centers, and sees them as the roots of his ability to see deep into systemic issues.
Athens, Georgia; Education; Fighting; Middle School; Community; Systemic Racism
0
2947
Awards and Inspirations
...and you see those plaques up there? Got awarded some of those things for community activism.
Breeding reflects on some of the awards Oglesby has earned, they discuss some of the art and photos of inspirational figures placed around the room.
Activism; Civil Rights; Malcolm X; Jesus; Christianity; African Artifacts; Awards; Community Service; NAACP; Advocacy; Equal Rights; Bible Verses; Black Art; Purpose
0
3246
Linking Activism to Previous Experiences
Do you think, um, you could have been the person, the community activist that you became had you not had those earlier experiences?
Oglesby links his life experiences through his youth at the youth development centers and Burney-Harris-Lyons Middle School as fundamental reasons for his pursuit of activism.
Human Rights; Systemic Issues; Activism; Community; Community Leadership; Youth Development Centers; Augusta, Georgia; Milledgeville, Georgia; Education; Integration; Initiation; Youth Choir; Bennett Johnson; Burney-Harris-Lyons Middle School; 1960’s; Athens, Georgia
33.990, -83.474
17
Burney-Harris-Lyons Middle School
3562
Activist Leadership
…did you participate in the marches that they had here?
Following the killing of Edward Wright in Athens, Oglesby once again led the community in activism through marches and by starting the Edward Wright Festival in Wright’s memory.
Leadership; Marches; Protests; Activism; Police Brutality; Edward Wright; Edward Wright Festival; Hot Corner Festival; Sean Potter; Athens, Georgia; Pat Mercadante; YMCA; Liberation; Community Education; Washington Street; Civil Rights Demonstration
0
3802
Activism and Civil Rights in 2023
I used to go to the uh, City Council meetings at City Hall, right…
Oglesby describes his heated participation in local politics on issues of systemic racism like gentrification, and calls out those who participate in today’s fight only to be seen, as well as those who distance themselves from participating.
Athens, Georgia; City Council Meetings; City Hall; Local Politics; Systemic Racism; Systemic Issues; Activism; Publicity; Education; Awards; Greene County, Georgia; Greed; Organizations
0
4184
Reflecting on The Warriors of the Past
There are a group of um, people because of the media…
Mr. Oglesby reflects on the role of the Black Church, and the characteristics of those who stood out as warriors of social change during the Civil Rights movement. He shares his frustration at the current lack of action by organizations once dedicated to integration.
Media; News; Malcolm X; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Medgar Evers; Civil Rights Movement; Where Do We Go From Here: Chaos or Community?; Black Church; 1950’s; 1960’s; 1970’s; Integration; NAACP; SCLC; Social Warriors
0
4727
Activist Support From White Communities
…like I said, when I thought that, that festival down there on Washington Street there…
Mr. Oglesby discusses the role of the white community during the Civil Rights movement and following the death of Edward Wright. He reflects on the vehement support of a friend in Athens and recalls the monetary support he received from white people while he started and ran the Edward Wright Festival.
Edward Wright Festival; Edward Wright; Washington Street; Activism; Community Participation; Donations; Contribution; Medgar Evers; Milledge Avenue; White Community
0
5067
Encounter With the KKK / Racism and History
…you remember any confrontations with the Klan?
Mr. Oglesby describes an encounter with the Ku Klux Klan at The Varsity in Athens and recalls a white student who stood up against them in support of the present Black people. He then talks about the cyclical nature of history and the role Black people are forced to play in holding up white society.
Athens, Georgia; The Varsity; Ku Klux Klan; KKK; Gainesville, Georgia; University of Georgia; Students; Racism; History; Jesus; Christianity; White Americans; White Society; Police; Systemic Racism
0
5391
Black Art and Land Ownership
That’s one reason I bought that picture right there.
Mr. Oglesby gives a tour of some of the Black art and African artifacts he has in the room, discussing the significance and symbolism that lie within the pieces. A discussion of one of the pieces leads to a conversation about Black land ownership in Athens, and the confiscation of Black-owned land throughout the Southeast.
Art; Black Art; Atlanta, Georgia; Art Festivals; Jesus; Christianity; Spirit; Symbolism; African Artifacts; Ghana; Land Ownership; Oconee County; Sharecropping; History; James Washington; Florida; New Grove Baptist Church; Urban Renewal
0
5992
Black History/Closing Remarks
Well, let me ask you, we gonna get in close to the end of the interview…
Mr. Oglesby offers advice to today’s youth, emphasizing the importance of having an understanding of history. This leads to a discussion of the general importance of history, how shallow the curriculum of Black history is in schools today, and how the history of Black people began long before the period that is taught in schools now as the interview concludes.
Civil Rights; Leaders; Church; Black Church; History; Black History; Youth; Wealth; Slavery; Progress; Athens-Clarke County; Education; School; Education; Curriculum
0
oral history
Resources may be used under the guidelines described by the U.S. Copyright Office in Section 107, Title 17, United States Code (Fair use). Parties interested in production or commercial use of the resources should contact the Russell Library for a fee schedule.
audio
0
https://sol07.sewanee.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=/render.php?cachefile=RBRL361AOHP-095.xml
RBRL361AOHP-095.xml
http://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL361AOHP/findingaid
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Thomas Oglesby, March 28, 2023
Subject
The topic of the resource
African Americans--History
Athens Black History
Political activists
Community activists
Religion
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Thomas Oglesby
William Breeding
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2023-03-28
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
audio
oral histories
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
rbrl361aohp-095
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Description
An account of the resource
<strong>Content Warning:</strong> This interview contains racial slurs.<br /><br />Thomas Oglesby was born in Athens in 1951 and grew up on Minor Street between Rockspring and Broad Acres. In this interview, Oglesby discusses his early life, experiences in Youth Development Centers, and his education. He connects these experiences to his passion for activism, detailing his leadership in activist movements throughout his life. Oglesby further discusses activists throughout the history of the Black community, the role of the Black Church, and emphasizes the importance of learning and understanding history.
OHMS
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Georgia Disability Community Oral History Project
Subject
The topic of the resource
Georgia--History, Local
People with disabilities--History
Georgia Disability Archive
Description
An account of the resource
The Georgia Disability Community Oral History Project began in 2015 when the Richard B. Russell Library organized the “Georgia Disability History Symposium: Stories of Advocacy and Action” to commemorate the 25th anniversary of the passage of the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA). Interviews have been recorded in the Athens and Atlanta areas, and document the work of disability advocates, current and former mental health professionals in Georgia, and the experiences of parents of children with autism.<br /><br />Please reference the Georgia Disability History Archive, which contains paper collections from well-known Georgia disability advocates and professionals, some of whom also have interviews in this collection.<br /><br />All interviews in this collection have been indexed in OHMS.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-2017
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Oral histories
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL391GDC
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Georgia
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
OHMS Object
Contains the OHMS link to the XML file within the OHMS viewer.
https://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL391GDC-001/ohms
OHMS Object Text
Contains OHMS index and/or transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable.
5.3 Interview with Tom Olin, September 23, 2015 RBRL391GDC-001 RBRL391GDC Georgia Disability Community Oral History Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies, University of Georgia Tom Olin Mat Darby Mark Johnson oral history 0 Kaltura video < ; iframe id=" ; kaltura_player" ; src=" ; https://cdnapisec.kaltura.com/p/1727411/sp/172741100/embedIframeJs/uiconf_id/26879422/partner_id/1727411?iframeembed=true& ; playerId=kaltura_player& ; entry_id=1_f0s281tk& ; flashvars[localizationCode]=en& ; flashvars[leadWithHTML5]=true& ; flashvars[sideBarContainer.plugin]=true& ; flashvars[sideBarContainer.position]=left& ; flashvars[sideBarContainer.clickToClose]=true& ; flashvars[chapters.plugin]=true& ; flashvars[chapters.layout]=vertical& ; flashvars[chapters.thumbnailRotator]=false& ; flashvars[streamSelector.plugin]=true& ; flashvars[EmbedPlayer.SpinnerTarget]=videoHolder& ; flashvars[dualScreen.plugin]=true& ; & ; wid=1_1pqtgqng" ; width=" ; 400" ; height=" ; 285" ; allowfullscreen webkitallowfullscreen mozAllowFullScreen frameborder=" ; 0" ; title=" ; Kaltura Player" ; > ; < ; /iframe> ; English 41 Early Life Where were you born and where did you grow up? Olin describes moving around Michigan while his father searched for coaching jobs. He mentions being a conscientious objector to the Vietnam War, having difficulties in school due to dyslexia, and his parents' ambivalent attitude toward his disability. family ; father ; Michigan ; Vietnam War 17 619 Mary Free Bed / Ozarks and Brazil I wanted to go back- so you're in Vancouver. You're about to, I guess, get kicked out... Olin talks about dodging the draft, getting caught, and completing his community service requirement at a rehab hospital, where he was exposed to people with a variety of disabilities. He discusses moving to the Ozarks with some friends and later living in Brazil, where he meditated and eventually decided to pursue disability activism. Brazil ; draft dodging ; Grand Rapids, Michigan ; Mary Free Bed Occupational Rehab Hospital ; Ozarks ; parents 17 1528 Berkeley When I did come back it was like 'if I wanted to get into disability, where would you go?' There was only one place. Olin discusses moving to Berkeley, California, to get involved with disability awareness and activism after leaving Brazil. He talks about Berkeley's Disabled Students' Program and describes learning photography and videography at a community college in order to document the disability community. Olin also mentions a disability rights demonstration that jump started his career in photography. Berkeley ; California ; California association of the Physically Handicapped ; Disabled Students' Program 17 2546 Russell Federal Building Demonstration / Photo Publications Over the past 30 years you've shot a lot of photographs. Is there one or two actions that sort of stand out for you as maybe the most important? Olin describes his participation in a demonstration for disabled persons' transportation rights at the Richard B. Russell Federal Building in Atlanta, Georgia. He talks about the photos he took at the event and his publications in magazines like Mainstream Mag, The Disability Rag, and Mouth. Olin further details the types of photos he generally likes to take at other activist events. ADA ; ADAPT ; American Disabled for Accessible Public Transit ; Americans with Disabilities Act ; demonstrations 17 3348 Role in the disability movement I first became aware of you through Mark, through your photographs, and from my point of view and for a lot of people in the movement and outside of the movement, they are iconic photographs that have a lot of impact, tell a story, document the history of this movement. Olin ponders his photography's role in the disability rights movement and talks about receiving two President's Awards from the NCIL. National Council on Independent Living 17 3827 Going on tour / The Big White Cloud Let's talk a little bit about the bus that's out here in front of the Richard Russell Library. Olin talks about several nation-wide tours he helped organize to spread awareness and support for the disability community. He chronicles the activist group's struggle to locate and maintain their bus, " ; The Big White Cloud," ; between tours. ADA ; CIL ; DIMENET ; Jim Ward ; Justin Dart ; Legacy Tour ; Road to Freedom Tour ; Roland Sykes 17 5194 Impact and highlights of the tours What's the significance of getting to Houston? Olin discusses the impact of the Road to Freedom Tour, which helped local governments understand and prioritize the American with Disabilities Act (ADA). Olin also talks about highlights of the Legacy Tour, during which he set up educational exhibits to celebrate the ADA's 25th anniversary. ADA ; touring 17 5975 Memorable Legacy Tour stops Let's talk a little bit about maybe your stop in Millersville at the university. Olin recalls a visit to Millersville University, where students responded to the Legacy Tour by starting a disability film series. He also talks about significant parts of the Legacy Tour, which included an exhibit at the Chicago History Museum and disability pride parades in Chicago and New York. disability pride ; Millersville ; parades ; Pennsylvania 17 6508 Legacy Tour finale So you're in Philly on July 24th, and you joined some folks there, so talk a little bit about the Philly experience. Olin discusses travelling through Philadelphia and Delaware and visiting landmarks like the Smithsonian, the Highlander Center, and the Center for Civil and Human Rights as the Legacy Tour came to a close. Atlanta ; events ; exhibits ; Highlander Research and Education Center 17 7530 Moving forward and preserving the past What's the plans now for Tom and the Road to Freedom? Olin discusses his plan to continue promoting disability rights among America's youth, and he emphasizes the importance of preserving the history of the disability community and other marginalized groups. activism ; history ; preservation 17 No transcript. Resources may be used under the guidelines described by the U.S. Copyright Office in Section 107, Title 17, United States Code (Fair use). Parties interested in production or commercial use of the resources should contact the Russell Library for a fee schedule. video 0 RBRL391GDC-001.xml RBRL391GDC-001.xml http://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL391GDC/findingaid
Location
The location of the interview
Athens, Georgia
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
132 minutes
Repository
Name of repository the interview is from
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Tom Olin, September 23, 2015
Identifier
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RBRL391GDC-001
Creator
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Tom Olin
Mat Darby
Mark Johnson
Format
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video
oral histories
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-09-23
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Georgia
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Subject
The topic of the resource
Learning disabilities
People with disabilities--Education
Political activists
People with disabilities--Civil rights--United States
Politics and Public Policy
United States--Civil rights
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
moving image
OHMS
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Georgia Disability Community Oral History Project
Subject
The topic of the resource
Georgia--History, Local
People with disabilities--History
Georgia Disability Archive
Description
An account of the resource
The Georgia Disability Community Oral History Project began in 2015 when the Richard B. Russell Library organized the “Georgia Disability History Symposium: Stories of Advocacy and Action” to commemorate the 25th anniversary of the passage of the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA). Interviews have been recorded in the Athens and Atlanta areas, and document the work of disability advocates, current and former mental health professionals in Georgia, and the experiences of parents of children with autism.<br /><br />Please reference the Georgia Disability History Archive, which contains paper collections from well-known Georgia disability advocates and professionals, some of whom also have interviews in this collection.<br /><br />All interviews in this collection have been indexed in OHMS.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-2017
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Oral histories
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL391GDC
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Georgia
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
OHMS Object
Contains the OHMS link to the XML file within the OHMS viewer.
https://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL391GDC-008/ohms
OHMS Object Text
Contains OHMS index and/or transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable.
5.3 Interview with Tom Graf, March 2, 2017 RBRL391GDC-008 RBRL391GDC Georgia Disability Community Oral History Project Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies, University of Georgia Tom Graf Mark Crenshaw oral history 0 Kaltura video < ; iframe id=" ; kaltura_player" ; src=" ; https://cdnapisec.kaltura.com/p/1727411/sp/172741100/embedIframeJs/uiconf_id/26879422/partner_id/1727411?iframeembed=true& ; playerId=kaltura_player& ; entry_id=1_6ekckhcf& ; flashvars[localizationCode]=en& ; flashvars[leadWithHTML5]=true& ; flashvars[sideBarContainer.plugin]=true& ; flashvars[sideBarContainer.position]=left& ; flashvars[sideBarContainer.clickToClose]=true& ; flashvars[chapters.plugin]=true& ; flashvars[chapters.layout]=vertical& ; flashvars[chapters.thumbnailRotator]=false& ; flashvars[streamSelector.plugin]=true& ; flashvars[EmbedPlayer.SpinnerTarget]=videoHolder& ; flashvars[dualScreen.plugin]=true& ; & ; wid=1_83beyeie" ; width=" ; 400" ; height=" ; 285" ; allowfullscreen webkitallowfullscreen mozAllowFullScreen frameborder=" ; 0" ; title=" ; Kaltura Player" ; > ; < ; /iframe> ; English 20 Education / Job history Could you tell me a little bit about where you grew up and your family? Graf opens up the interview explaining how his personal disinterest in blue-collar work eventually led him to the decision to go to college. Graf recollects details from his first job as a P.E. instructor and his second job as a bond issuer at the Happy Hearts Special Education School in Ashtabula County, Ohio. Graf explains how his dislike of the cold weather in Ohio eventually led him to pursue a job in Atlanta, Georgia. Atlanta ; college ; high school ; Special Education 17 406 Working in Atlanta / Graf integrates Special Needs schools What did you inherit when you came here in '65 from Ohio? Graf explains his experiences working in Atlanta special need schools during the late 1960's after leaving Ohio. Graf recalls his role as head of the board for three special needs Altanta schools, and reflects on his decision to integrate two previously segregated schools in order to receive more government funding. Graf details the backlash from his supervisor who called Graf a " ; Yankee" ; and told him to go back to the north. Bobby Dodd ; Dekalb County ; desegregation ; Druid Hills ; Fairhaven ; funding ; merger 17 1081 The Bobby Dodd Workshop A while ago you mentioned that the workshop was called the Bobby Dodd Workshop, could you... Graf recalls his relationship with Bobby Dodd, the annual chairman of the Bobby Dodd Workshop (an institute devoted to the employment of the mentally disabled). Graf reminisces over the level of commitment Bobby Dodd displayed towards his cause. Graf details how Bobby Dodd introduced him to many powerful legislative figures, some of whom joined the board of Graf's organization, the Atlanta Alliance on Developmental Disabilities (AADD). fundraiser ; legislation ; Rich Foundation ; Thomas Chatman ; Tom Asher 17 1514 Building a board / Prevention initiatives Tom is the chair of the board of the Rich Foundation? Graf recalls how he transformed his organization's board to include people with diplomatic power with the help of Leadership Atlanta. Graf gives details into how he pressured Georgia Governor Joe Frank Harris into passing a metabolic disorder prevention bill, by releasing Gov. Harris' approval to the press before the final decision. Graf explains how AADD started the Atlanta Special Olympics. Atlanta Alliance on Developmental Disabilities ; Chip Conrad ; Frank Spence ; Joe Frank Harris ; King and Spalding Lawfirms ; Leadership Atlanta ; Metabolic Disorders ; prevention ; Special Olympics ; Tom Asher 17 1990 Passing disability bills / Community Services Act So what are the consequences of having passed that bill? Graf explains how he enabled the passing of the Metabolic Screening Act, which was created for the purpose of preventing the development of metabolic disorders during pregnancy. Graf discusses his experiences passing additional acts, including the Community Services Act of 1972, which led to the development of community centers for those unable to work. Graf explains how he got inspiration for the development of community service centers from the service centers that he had visited in Copenhagen, Denmark. Community Services Act 1972 ; Denmark, Copenhagen ; Emory Genetics Department ; Intervention ; Mandatory Education Act 1968 ; Metabolic disorders ; Metabolic Screening Acts ; Prevention ; recreation programs ; Rosalyn Carter 17 2306 Expanding influence / Passing Community Services Act So you said the money you were given from... Graf gives describes the bureaucratic process used for the passing of the Community Services Act. Graf gives recognition to Jack Blackstone, who helped grow Graf's organization to one-thousand members through the creation of state charters. Graf proceeds to list influential Georgian politicians and their role in AADD's function. Graf recollects how the organization ran TV and newspaper ads showing the conditions of disabled children in institutions, which inspired legislative action. Bobby Dodd ; Bobby Rowan ; Community Services Act ; Jack Blackstone ; Legislation ; Webb Spratts ; Zell Miller 17 2676 Mental institutions in the 1970's / Graf's relationship with Manuel Maloof Just for comparison's sake, talk to me about the venue that people lived in when you first came to Georgia? Graf gives insight into the condition of mental institutions of Georgia when he first came to the Atlanta area in the 1970's. He talks about the overcrowding of institutions as some institutions had up to ten thousand patients and people were often grouped together, regardless of background. Graf recounts how he worked to get the mental institutions closed due to their conditions. Graf explains his relationship with Manuael Maloof, a prominent Atlanta politician, who Graf describes as a father figure. Graf recalls Maloof's dedication towards Graf's organization, which Graf accredits to the fact that Maloof had a son who also had a mental disability. Augusta Georgia ; Dunwoody, Georgia ; Frank Spence ; Georgia Retardation Center ; Gracewood ; Human Rights Committee ; institution ; Manuel Maloof ; Milledgeville ; Shirley Miller 17 3321 Paul Coverdell and the Criminal Justice Act My sense is that you've always had a real focus on building on... Graf explains the expansion of AADD (Atlanta Alliance on Developmental Disabilities) into the community. He recounts the passing of a bill known as the Criminal Justice Act, which was aimed at alleviating punishments for those in the justice system who were labeled mentally disabled. Graf explains how Paul Coverdell, a fellow lobbyist at time (later, U.S. Senator), managed to get the act passed. Graf reflects how the bill did not make the remarkable change he wanted due to the public's lack of concern. Atlanta Alliance on Developmental Disabilities (AADD) ; community ; Criminal Justice Act ; education ; Lobbying ; Paul Coverdell 17 3821 Making change / Growing up in a Catholic School Over your time doing this work, what do you think you've learned about working to make change? Graf reflects how people with political power are often needed in order to make changes in legislative policy. Graf explains how he believes making change in the world is more important than financial gain. Graf gives insight into the bullying he experienced growing up in a Catholic school with a Protestant father. Graf explains how Catholic school eventually led him to develop an obsession with grades and studying. Amy Paegent ; Graduate school ; High school ; King & ; Spalding ; Marta ; Tom Asher 17 4295 Catholic school, cont. / Tommy Nobis That little kid on the other side of the room got helped too. Graf explains how his experience in Catholic school, specifically the unfair treatment of disabled children led him to become conscious to the treatment of those labeled mentally disabled. Graf reflects how his anger, which stemmed from the unfair treatment, was constructively used to help him achieve his goals, and eventually led him to become an activist . Graf reflects how Tommy Nobis, co-founder of the Tommy Nobis Center (a company focused on the employment of those with mental disabilities) contributed greatly to the development of AADD but recently suffered from dementia bought on from football. Atlanta Alliance on Developmental Disabilities ; Catholic school ; College ; Down Syndrome ; Tommy Nobis ; Tommy Nobis Center 17 4562 Legacy What do you think your legacy is? Graf explains how he believes his legacy is his persistence and determination to his cause. Graf also mentions how Paul Coverdell, a politician who supported the AADD agenda as a member of the senate, helped with the expansion of the AADD. Atlanta Alliance on Developmental Disabilities 17 No transcript. Resources may be used under the guidelines described by the U.S. Copyright Office in Section 107, Title 17, United States Code (Fair use). Parties interested in production or commercial use of the resources should contact the Russell Library for a fee schedule. video 0 RBRL391GDC-008.xml RBRL391GDC-008.xml http://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL391GDC/findingaid
Location
The location of the interview
Decatur, Georgia
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
80 minutes
Repository
Name of repository the interview is from
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Tom Graf, March 2, 2017
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL391GDC-008
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Tom Graf
Mark Crenshaw
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video
oral histories
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Georgia
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Subject
The topic of the resource
People with disabilities--Education
School integration
People with disabilities--Services for
Political activists
Mental health policy
Nonprofit organizations
People with disabilities--Civil rights--United States
Politics and Public Policy
United States--Civil rights
Description
An account of the resource
Tom Graf reflects on his life work in providing change for those who suffer from mental disabilities. Graf describes his early life as a blue-collar worker, before his eventual change of path into providing care for the mentally disabled. Graf discusses the condition of Atlanta’s mental institutions after moving to Atlanta from Ohio in the early 1970s. Graf reflects on the steps he took to build up his non-profit, the Atlanta Alliance on Developmental Disabilities (AADD), and the parents and politicians who supported his mission. He acknowledges the change that resulted from AADD’s advocacy, including the passing of legislation and redevelopment of Georgia’s care for the mentally disabled.
Tom Graf was born in Lancaster, Ohio, where he attended Catholic school until high school. After high school, Graf worked a variety of jobs, including at an ice plant and in construction. After deciding to quite blue-collar work, Graf attended Ohio State University on a scholarship where he wrestled, played football, and majored in physical education. After college, Graf worked as a physical education teacher in a school that provided education for the mentally disabled. Graf eventually went back to Ohio State University to receive his masters in special education in 1962. From there, Graf became director of the Happy Hearts School for the mentally disabled, where he provided funding for Happy Hearts through bond issues, and eventually moved to Atlanta in 1965, where he joined the board of many schools that specialized in providing education for the mentally disabled. Later, Graf became the executive director of the Atlanta Alliance on Developmental Disabilities, where he implemented many policies with the goal of ensuring the proper treatment of those with mental disabilities.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-03-02
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
moving image
OHMS
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Two-Party Georgia Oral History Project
Subject
The topic of the resource
Political parties
Two-party systems
Georgia--History
Georgia--Politics and government
Politics and Public Policy
Description
An account of the resource
The Two-Party Georgia Oral History Project documents how the Georgia Republican Party grew from a small grassroots party during an era of Democratic dominance into the state’s premiere political organization and governing party over the course of the late-twentieth and early twenty-first centuries. Interview participants represent current and former Republican and Democratic political figures who were active contributors or commenters on this transformation between 1952-2016, with a primary focus on the years post-1974.The collection documents the personal experiences and insights of the candidates, officeholders, activists, organizers, strategists, and analysts who participated in those key campaigns, intraparty conflicts, policy debates, and legislative battles. It also documents the accounts of the journalists and scholars who have chronicled these activities and achievements.<br /><br /><a href="http://georgiaoralhistory.libs.uga.edu/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=&range=&collection=4&type=&tags=OHMS&featured=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">View all OHMS indexed interviews in this collection here.</a>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-ongoing
Rights
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http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Oral histories
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL425TPGA
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Georgia
Hyperlink
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Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
58 minutes
Location
The location of the interview
Atlanta, Georgia
URL
<h3><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><a href="http://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL425TPGA-073/video-access" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Access Interview </a></span></h3>
Repository
Name of repository the interview is from
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Dublin Core
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Identifier
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RBRL425TPGA-073
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Nse Ufot, December 20, 2018
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Nse Ufot
Katie Schank
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-12-20
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Georgia
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
oral histories
Subject
The topic of the resource
Women--Political activity
African Americans--History
African American women
Political activists
Community organization
Description
An account of the resource
<span>Nseabasi (Nse) Ufot was born in Nigeria and immigrated to the United States as a child. She is a graduate of Atlanta Public Schools, Georgia Tech, and the University of Dayton School of Law. Ufot practiced corporate law before joining the American Federation of State, County, and Municipal Employees (AFSCME) Ohio’s legal department. She has also worked as a senior lobbyist and government relations officer for the American Association of University Professors (AAUP) and assistant executive director of the Canadian Association of Teachers. She is currently CEO of the New Georgia Project, a nonpartisan organization dedicated to registering and engaging Georgia’s diversifying population. Ufot resides in Atlanta.<br /><br />Ufot begins by talking about her family, upbringing, and education. She turns to her political activism and work with organized labor following law school. Ufot discusses the origins of the New Georgia Project, its mission, and her responsibilities in the organization. She explains the challenges related to voter registration including voter apathy and legal actions. Ufot reflects on balancing her personal political views with work at the nonpartisan New Georgia Project. She talks about voter suppression and its ties to Jim Crow era Georgia. Ufot adds her preliminary takeaways from the 2018 midterm elections and the future of the New Georgia Project. The interview closes with Ufot’s thoughts on Georgia politics looking ahead to 2020 and beyond.<br /></span><span></span>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
moving image
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Two-Party Georgia Oral History Project
Subject
The topic of the resource
Political parties
Two-party systems
Georgia--History
Georgia--Politics and government
Politics and Public Policy
Description
An account of the resource
The Two-Party Georgia Oral History Project documents how the Georgia Republican Party grew from a small grassroots party during an era of Democratic dominance into the state’s premiere political organization and governing party over the course of the late-twentieth and early twenty-first centuries. Interview participants represent current and former Republican and Democratic political figures who were active contributors or commenters on this transformation between 1952-2016, with a primary focus on the years post-1974.The collection documents the personal experiences and insights of the candidates, officeholders, activists, organizers, strategists, and analysts who participated in those key campaigns, intraparty conflicts, policy debates, and legislative battles. It also documents the accounts of the journalists and scholars who have chronicled these activities and achievements.<br /><br /><a href="http://georgiaoralhistory.libs.uga.edu/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=&range=&collection=4&type=&tags=OHMS&featured=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">View all OHMS indexed interviews in this collection here.</a>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-ongoing
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Oral histories
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL425TPGA
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Georgia
Hyperlink
A link, or reference, to another resource on the Internet.
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
49 minutes
Location
The location of the interview
Norcross, Georgia
URL
<h3><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><a href="http://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL425TPGA-081/video" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Access Interview </a></span></h3>
Repository
Name of repository the interview is from
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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RBRL425TPGA-081
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Jerry Gonzalez, May 21, 2019
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Jerry Gonzalez
Katie Schank
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2019-05-21
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Georgia
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
oral histories
Subject
The topic of the resource
Latinos
Political activists
Emigration and immigration--Government policy
Voter registration
Nonprofit organizations
Description
An account of the resource
<span>Jerry Gonzalez was born and raised in Laredo, Texas. He earned a bachelor’s degree in mechanical engineering from Texas A&M in 1995 and an MPA from Georgia State University’s Andrew Young School of Policy Studies in 2005. He joined the Mexican American Legal Defense and Educational Fund (MALDEF) as a legislative policy analyst in 2002 and became founding Executive Director of the Georgia Association of Latino Elected Officials (GALEO) in 2003. He is currently the CEO of GALEO. Gonzalez resides in Atlanta.</span><br /><br /><span>Gonzalez speaks about his childhood, education, and path to becoming a political activist in Georgia. He reflects on the origins of the Georgia Association of Latino Elected Officials (GALEO) and its mission. Gonzalez discusses the current state of immigration policy and its impact of politics. He talks about GALEO’s work during past elections as well as the 2018 midterms, including voter registration. Gonzalez reflects on balancing his personal political views in a nonpartisan public role. The interview closes with Gonzalez looking ahead to the future of Georgia politics and GALEO’s evolving role.</span><span></span>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
moving image
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Two-Party Georgia Oral History Project
Subject
The topic of the resource
Political parties
Two-party systems
Georgia--History
Georgia--Politics and government
Politics and Public Policy
Description
An account of the resource
The Two-Party Georgia Oral History Project documents how the Georgia Republican Party grew from a small grassroots party during an era of Democratic dominance into the state’s premiere political organization and governing party over the course of the late-twentieth and early twenty-first centuries. Interview participants represent current and former Republican and Democratic political figures who were active contributors or commenters on this transformation between 1952-2016, with a primary focus on the years post-1974.The collection documents the personal experiences and insights of the candidates, officeholders, activists, organizers, strategists, and analysts who participated in those key campaigns, intraparty conflicts, policy debates, and legislative battles. It also documents the accounts of the journalists and scholars who have chronicled these activities and achievements.<br /><br /><a href="http://georgiaoralhistory.libs.uga.edu/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=&range=&collection=4&type=&tags=OHMS&featured=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">View all OHMS indexed interviews in this collection here.</a>
Creator
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Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Publisher
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Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Date
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2017-ongoing
Rights
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http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
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Oral histories
Identifier
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RBRL425TPGA
Coverage
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Georgia
Hyperlink
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Duration
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57 minutes
Location
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Atlanta, Georgia
URL
<h3><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><a href="http://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL425TPGA-082/video" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Access Interview </a></span></h3>
Repository
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Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Dublin Core
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Identifier
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RBRL425TPGA-082
Title
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Interview with Tim Cairl, May 23, 2019
Creator
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Tim Cairl
Katie Schank
Date
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2019-05-23
Coverage
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Georgia
Rights
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http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
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oral histories
Subject
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Political party organization
LGBTQ+ community
Gay rights
Political activists
Description
An account of the resource
<span>Tim Cairl was born and raised in rural, central Michigan. He relocated to Georgia with his family as a child and attended high school in Douglasville, Georgia. He earned a bachelor’s degree in health sciences from Liberty University in 1997 and an MPP from Georgia State University’s Andrew Young School of Policy Studies in 2013. From 2006 to 2009, </span><span>Cairl served as Executive Director of the Young Democrats of Georgia, and he is the Chair of the Georgia Stonewall Democrats. He is currently the Director of Education Policy for the Metro Atlanta Chamber of Commerce. Cairl resides in Atlanta.</span><span></span><br /><br /><span>Cairl talks about his upbringing, education, and early interest in politics. He discusses his time at Liberty University and growing interest in progressive politics and causes. He reflects on the mission of the Stonewall Democrats, his role within the organization, and the work of predecessor organizations. Cairl discusses current policy priorities as well as issues important to the LGBTQ+ community. He speaks about the Stonewall Democrats’ campaign work on behalf of progressive candidates. The interview closes with Cairl’s thoughts on the state of Georgia politics and predictions about the future of the two-party system.</span><span></span>
Type
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moving image