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Richard B. Russell Library Oral History Documentary Collection
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Georgia--History
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Oral history collection consisting of interviews conducted for the Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies since 2003.<br /><br /><a href="http://georgiaoralhistory.libs.uga.edu/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=&range=&collection=3&type=&tags=OHMS&featured=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">View all OHMS indexed interviews in this collection here. </a>
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RBRL175OHD
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Georgia
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5.3 Interview with Judge Griffin B. Bell, June 15, 2004 RBRL175OHD-002 RBRL175OHD Richard B. Russell Library Oral History Documentary Collection OHD-002 Interview with Judge Griffin B. Bell finding aid Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies, University of Georgia Griffin Bell Bill Shipp 1:|10(13)|21(3)|32(6)|45(5)|60(8)|76(17)|90(11)|111(7)|130(14)|144(1)|164(9)|177(3)|200(1)|217(10)|233(5)|252(11)|274(9)|295(4)|312(15)|347(1)|358(5)|379(4)|392(12)|401(4)|413(1)|425(2)|437(15)|448(6)|464(9)|481(13)|505(11)|521(8)|530(5)|547(9)|560(11)|571(8)|586(5)|599(8)|611(1)|632(6)|653(3)|663(3)|679(4)|690(4)|706(13)|726(11)|738(2)|749(13)|767(5)|776(10)|798(16)|809(13)|823(11)|834(2)|848(10)|872(5)|886(5)|902(3)|918(10)|933(11)|954(12)|964(12)|979(4)|989(14)|1000(12)|1009(17)|1019(11)|1028(17)|1038(15)|1052(7)|1062(10)|1077(4)|1097(2)|1119(10)|1130(4)|1140(6)|1153(12)|1163(10)|1175(8)|1190(7)|1201(1)|1215(14) 0 http://youtu.be/xb5VFZvL66k Kaltura video English 11 Introduction We're pleased and honored this morning to talk with Judge Griffin B. Bell. Bill Shipp introduces Judge Griffin Bell and comments on the history of his career. 17 60 Public school desegregation / Decision to desegregate the University of Georgia Judge, we won't start from the very beginning just yet. But let's go back to 1959 when you were Chief of Staff to Gov. Ernie Vandiver. Bell discusses the Southern states' desire to close the public schools in response to the Supreme Court ruling on integration. He discusses how the Sibley Commission repealed state laws prohibiting integration in order to allow local-level decision-making. He recalls the decision over the integration of the University of Georgia and its impact on spurring the public school desegregation process throughout the state. Carl Sanders ; democratic participation ; Ernest Vandiver ; integration ; Jim Gillis ; John Sibley ; Little Rock Nine ; public schools ; segregation ; Sibley Commission ; University of Georgia 17 489 Managing Kennedy's presidential campaign in Georgia Let's move up to 1960, and you were co-chair of the Kennedy campaign in Georgia, and I believe that was a high water mark for the Democratic Party in this state. Bell talks about President Kennedy's help in releasing Martin Luther King, Jr., from jail. He discusses his involvement in managing Kennedy's presidential campaign in Georgia. He describes the campaign as the high-water mark for the Democratic Party in Georgia and attributes the success to the Democratic majority in Congress. He discusses the successful Kennedy rally held at Warm Springs, Georgia, that drew on Franklin Roosevelt's campaigning style. campaign management ; civil rights movement ; Democratic Party ; Ernest Vandiver ; John F. Kennedy ; Martin Luther King, Jr. ; Oscar Mitchell ; political organization ; presidential election ; rally ; Warm Springs, Georgia 17 757 Work on the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals Partly as a reward for that and partly because of your great legal talents, you went to the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals which turned out be another battleground of integration. Bell reflects on his work as a judge on the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals. He discusses the U.S. Supreme Court decision which extended jurisdiction of the federal courts to the state level, and the subsequent abolition of the county unit system in Georgia. Bell also comments on his extensive work with school busing cases and his reasons for ruling against school busing. He reflects on his role in increasing racial and gender judicial diversity and not serving on the Supreme Court. Baker v. Carr ; busing ; county unit system ; diversity ; Elbert Tuttle ; Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals ; integration ; segregation ; U.S. Supreme Court ; United States v. Ross Barnett 17 1161 Work in private sector / High profile corporate cases You resigned in 1979, and then... Bell discusses his work in the private sector, which included high-profile corporate cases. He comments on the E.F. Hutton case, which set the precedent for future corporate investigations. He also comments on his participation with the Exxon Valdez case. check kiting ; Dow Corning ; E.F. Hutton investigation ; Exxon Valdez ; King and Spalding ; private sector 17 1325 School busing controversy in Taliaferro County, Georgia Taliaferro County, tell us about what happened there. Bell discusses the investigation into segregation in Taliaferro County, that had been spurred by the barring of African Americans from a public swimming pool. Bell talks about the march on the capitol by schoolchildren organized by King in protest to the continuing school segregation in Augusta. Bell remembers his deeply unpopular idea to put the school system in receivership to the state superintendent in response to a civil disobedience event planned by protesters. Augusta, Georgia ; busing ; Carl Sanders ; civil disobedience ; Frank Scarlett ; integration ; Lewis Morgan ; march ; Martin Luther King, Jr. ; receivership ; Roy Harris ; segregation ; Taliaferro County 17 1838 Relations with notable Southern lawyers / Estrangement between Senator Russell and President Johnson Did you ever meet with Dr. King? Bell talks about his relationships with various civil rights lawyers. Bell discusses the nomination and confirmation process of federal judges. He also discusses the nomination of Alex Lawrence for district judge, the opposition Lawrence encountered, and the repercussions of President Johnson's overruling on future judicial nominations. Alex Lawrence ; Charlie Block ; confirmation process ; Drew Days ; judicial blocking ; Lyndon Johnson ; Ramsey Clark ; Richard Russell ; Southern Railroad 17 2271 Works as Attorney General / Early friends and education Well, you ought to know something about. Bell discusses his process of confirmation as Attorney General and the opposition he faced in the Senate. Bell talks about his early friendships and his admiration for certain lawyers. Bells also reflects on the changes he implemented within the Department of Justice and the FBI as Attorney General. Attorney General ; Carl Vinson ; confirmation process ; Department of Justice ; FBI ; Federal Bureau of Investigation ; Frank Myers, John Sibley 17 2887 Diplomatic and Defense roles / Support of George H.W. Bush / Iran-Contra In 1980, you led the American Delegation to the Conference on Security and Cooperation in Europe, and you served as co-chairman of the Attorney General's National Risk Task Force on Violent Crime. Bell comments on his involvement in Cold War era international politics. He comments on his support of Republican presidential candidate George H.W. Bush., as well as his support for other Republican candidates. Bell also discusses advising Bush about the Iran-Contra controversy. Cold War ; Florida election controversy ; George H. W. Bush ; Iran-Contra ; presidential election ; Soviet Union ; terrorism 17 3511 Treatment of military prisoners / Hasenfus espionage / MLK assassination investigation / Identity of Deep Throat Coming forward a little bit, you also were an adviser to Defense Secretary Rumsfeld on military tribunals. Bell discusses his part in revising the rules for military tribunals as well as his views on the treatment of prisoners. He comments on the controversy over the Robert Hassen espionage case as well as the Eugene Hasenfus hostage crisis in Nicaragua. Bell talks about his decision to reopen the investigation of the assassination of Martin Luther King, Jr., and speculates about the possible identity of the Watergate source Deep Throat (who he believes may have had ties to Russia). Cold War ; Deep Throat ; Donald Rumsfeld ; Eugene Hansefus ; Guantanamo ; Iraq War ; Joseph Lowery ; military tribunals ; Robert Hanssen ; treatment of prisoners ; Watergate 17 4421 U.S. political involvement in world affairs / Comments about international political organizations You're an old Mercer man, but in 1998 you were the 73rd recipient of an honorary Doctor of Laws degree at the University of Georgia. Bell reflects on the transition between the Old South and the New South. He also comments on the impetus of political change and the process of adjusting to and leading that change. He compares the political leadership between the old and new generations and comments on the Occupation of Iraq, the future of the South, and the roles of international political organizations and leaders. Greatest Generation ; leadership ; Middle East ; NATO ; New South ; political change ; Solid South ; spread of democracy 17 4916 Conclusion Our very patient and gracious guest today has been Judge Griffin B. Bell... Bill Shipp concludes the interview by highlighting the length of Griffen Bell's public service career and thanking him for the interview. 17 Oral History SHIPP: We' ; re pleased and honored to talk this morning with Judge Griffin B. Bell who' ; s public and private career spans more than a half century and who has seen and participated in more Georgia history than anyone I can think of. A native of Americus, he recently retired from the prestigious King and Spalding law firm where he handled numerous internationally important cases. He has served as a United States appellate judge, attorney general of the United States, and advisor to both democratic and republican presidents not to mention to several Georgia governors. In my judgment, he ranks high among the most influential Georgians of the twentieth century. Almost from the beginning of his career he was recognized as a skilled political operative. Judge, we won' ; t start from the very beginning just yet, but let' ; s go back to 1959 when you were chief of staff to Governor Ernie Vandiver. Those are very tense times and Georgia was at a crossroads. Let' ; s talk about that time and your role in what happened. BELL: Well, Ernie was elected and he had promised that there' ; d be no school integration. After he was elected but before he took office the Supreme Court handed down the second Little Rock case in which it said among other things that even violence was not an excuse not to integrate the schools. It became clear then to several of us that he couldn' ; t carry out his pledge, that there would be no integration. So, he appointed me his chairman of a lawyer committee of five lawyers including me to see what they were doing in the other southeastern states. We went to several other states, talked with the governors and attorney generals. I came back and reported to him that they--none of them had any better plan than we had, which is none. No one had the answer. You either had to follow the Supreme Court decision or we' ; d have chaos. Many people wanted to close the schools, said, " ; Just go out of the education business." ; But that it was some thought that you could do that. Just a short time after that the Supreme Court held on a case in Virginia that had to open the schools. They had closed the schools. So that would not have worked but we didn' ; t know that at the time. So there was a good deal of agitation in places like Atlanta where they wanted to save the public schools--had something called " ; Save the Public Schools" ; even though they were going to integrate. And state law prohibited that. SHIPP: And Vandiver was stuck with a " ; No, not one" ; promise, right? BELL: Not only a promise but during the Marvin Griffin administration we had passed all these laws including a new flag to keep down any kind of integration so schools could not integrate they would--it' ; s against the state law. So we came to the conclusion that we either had to keep the schools open or close them, at the time we thought we could. So I suggested to the governor that we appoint a commission to have hearings, public hearings and let the people speak to see what the people wanted to do. So we thought of something called A Sibley Commission which has a story in itself. Mr. John Sibley was chosen by Governor Vandiver to be the Chairman. I drew it up and he said he' ; d agree to it if he could get the right chairman. And I said, " ; Who do you want?" ; And he said, " ; John Sibley." ; So I spoke with Mr. Sibley and he said he wanted to talk to the governor, he wanted to be sure this was not a sham or some sort, that it was genuine effort to solve a problem. So he and Ernie met and Ernie reassured him and so he agreed to be the chairman and the members of the commission were picked by heads of organizations all over the state, like Farm Bureau and some from the Senate, some from the House. We didn' ; t have an organization for Mr. Sibley but we found out he was President of the University of Georgia Alumni society so we put that in his resolution. SHIPP: (laughter) To qualify him. BELL: To qualify him. And he became the chairman and they had ten hearings, ten congressional districts and ten hearings. They were very tumultuous ; some more so than others. But people spoke, it was an amazing thing in a democracy why people get stirred up they' ; ll speak. And they were speaking both ways. And it became clear then we had to do something and we had to get rid of the laws and let the local control take over. And so Ernie, the governor, decided that he would have a special session of the legislature and he addressed the legislature at night, the first night and told them we had to repeal all these laws that had just been passed a few years earlier and let people do whatever they wanted to do on a local level. And that' ; s what happened. We appealed all the laws. It was an amazing defeat actually that--change public opinion that fast. SHIPP: Wasn' ; t there a fire storm in controversy that Vandiver betrayed what he said he would do--? BELL: Oh yeah, about like the flag fight? SHIPP: Right. BELL: In recent days. But he just had to do that. It came to a head with Judge Bootle ordered the University of Georgia integrated, that' ; s what broke the dam. And Vandiver either had to close the University of Georgia or let the two students in. That' ; s when he had the famous meeting at the mansion. SHIPP: Tell us about that. BELL: Well, he called--in the old governor' ; s mansion--he called all the leaders, all his supporters, Mr. Jim Gillis, Dixon Knox who' ; s from the Highway Department, the speaker of the house, the floor leader and president of the Senate, he had them all there. I think it was twenty three people ; I was there just as his Chief of Staff. So I witnessed this. And he told a group that he came to tell them that he was not going to--he couldn' ; t bring himself to close the University of Georgia. And he said, " ; I have to carry out the court order and I know you' ; re disappointed in me and I called the meeting to tell you all goodbye. I know you want to resign." ; And he told Mr. Gillis, starting with Mr. Gillis and thanked him for all he' ; d done for him, helped him get elected, told him he' ; d miss him and he kept going down the line. Finally he hit Frank Twitty. And Twitty says, " ; Governor, don' ; t tell me goodbye. I' ; m not going anywhere." ; Then the next one was Carl Sanders and he said the same thing. Before it was over no one left. SHIPP: Including Gillis? BELL: Not one left. It was an amazing feat. SHIPP: Let me add an editorial comment here Judge. I think you are more responsible than anyone for making, pulling Georgia ahead of Alabama and Mississippi by seeing that Sibley Commission got off the ground and saved the public schools. BELL: That and the University of Georgia. SHIPP: And the University of Georgia. We did not have chaos. BELL: That' ; s right. Those two things changed the course of history in Georgia and got us ahead of the rest of the Southeast. SHIPP: And I think you deserve much credit for that. Let' ; s move up to 1960 and you were co-chair of the Kennedy Campaign in Georgia and I believe that was a high water mark for the Democratic Party in this state. Tell everybody that and then your chair, the other co-chair was Taxi Smith, right? BELL: No, it was George L. Smith, speaker of the House. SHIPP: George L. Smith, right. BELL: Well, George L. was, you know, George L. left the campaign after Governor Vandiver was able to get Martin Luther King out of jail. At that point, that was a very unpopular thing for Vandiver to do. SHIPP: Okay, we need to put that in kind of context. At one point King was leading demonstrations--tell about that episode, BELL: Well, King had become a Civil Rights leader of the highest order. And he had some traffic charges in DeKalb County--he' ; d been probated--so he was arrested for violating his probation and the judge sent him to Reidsville, didn' ; t leave him in the DeKalb County Jail. SHIPP: Judge Oscar Mitchell, wasn' ; t it? BELL: Yeah, sent him to Reidsville. So President Kennedy called Governor Vandiver and asked him--suggested to him that maybe he could get him out of jail. And so Governor Vandiver arranged that and had him released. He had to--the condition to getting him out was that Judge Mitchell said the President had to call him, ask him. Well Bobby Kennedy called him, actually and got the job done. Got Dr. King released. But this was not well received in Georgia amongst a lot of people and George L. thought he might lose his seat in the legislature so he returned to Swainsboro. SHIPP: And left you holding the Kennedy bag, right? [Shipp chuckles] BELL: Right. Left me with it. SHIPP: How did you manage, as I recall, Kennedy swept Georgia by a huge margin. BELL: Well, we had it organized. We got--all our congressmen were democrats. Both senators were democrats so I was able to get their list of key supporters, from every one of them. And so we organized every county, every town of any size. We had committees. And Georgia never been organized like that before or since I don' ; t believe. SHIPP: But he was a catholic from New England who didn' ; t have a great deal in common with the average. BELL: No, but we had the whole--at that time the Democratic Party in Georgia was strong. And if you got all these key people you could carry anything. And that' ; s what happened. And we carried Georgia by the greatest majority of any state in the nation for candidate. It was really another thing that happened that was I think had a lot to do with it, we had this--Nixon came to Atlanta and had a huge crowd. We were worried that we couldn' ; t get that many people to the Kennedy rally so we decided to have it at Warm Springs. And the Governor had a speech writer named Ed Lynn Bridges who was--lived during Roosevelt' ; s time. He wrote a speech that sounded exactly like Roosevelt for Vandiver to deliver and he delivered it when he introduced Kennedy. And they let all the schools turn out in that area of Georgia so wherever the motorcade went there were school children. And there' ; s a huge crowd of people there and it was like Roosevelt running again, and that turned it right there. SHIPP: Was Nixon being totally rejected and the people that swept--went for Kennedy? BELL: Yeah. But if we' ; d had to rally in Atlanta we couldn' ; t be certain we' ; d have a big crowd like that. And we never could have got another [unintelligible] of Roosevelt. SHIPP: I' ; m right. That was a high watermark for the Democrats up until Carter ran the first time. BELL: Oh, no question about it. I think the majority then was a larger than the Carter election even. I' ; m not certain of that but it was a high watermark. SHIPP: Well, partly-- BELL: We had ten Georgia congressmen and two Senators, all Democratic Party. SHIPP: Partly as a reward for that and partly because of your great legal talents you went to the 5th Circuit Court of Appeals which turn out to be another battle ground of integration and-- BELL: Well, I' ; d got with it being a battle ground. (laughter) SHIPP: How about the-- BELL: While I was on the court about a week before President Kennedy was assassinated Bobby Kennedy came through Atlanta and I went to lunch with him at the Capital City Club and President Kennedy called at me. He went outside to take the call out in the hall, came back and said President wants to speak to you. So I went out there and he said, " ; Are you bored with your new job?" ; I said, " ; No, I couldn' ; t stand any more excitement than we' ; re having." ; He said, " ; Well, if you get bored get in touch with me I' ; ll get you another job." ; SHIPP: But talk about some of the cases. Didn' ; t you hand down the opinion on the United States or the order United States v. Ross Barnett in the Meredith--? BELL: I did. Also I had to--I wrote the opinion in the county unit decision. SHIPP: Oh, the county unit system--handed down in 1962. A lot of our viewers may not know how what a significant--that changed everything in Georgia politics. BELL: It changed politics, right. SHIPP: Describe that for us and what the significance of that. BELL: There' ; d been many cases attacking the Georgia county unit system which was totally unfair. Had units for all the unpopular vote and the largest county, Fulton, got six units and the smallest county, Echols, got two. That gives you an idea how unfair it was. It was patterned after the Electoral College but it was not geared to population. SHIPP: (laughter) One small difference. BELL: One small difference. So, there had been many suits before attacking the county unit system but the Supreme Court had always held that it was a political question over which the federal courts had no jurisdiction. In 1962 they handed down a case called Baker v. Carr in which they said the courts had jurisdiction. So somebody made it a file or a suit attacking the county unit system. That meant that we could decide the case ; the court had jurisdiction. It had to be decided. Well it was a slam dunk when you think about how unfair it was. It had to be adjusted to the population. And we said they could have something commensurate with the Electoral College but it had to be geared to the population. And the Supreme Court even knocked that out, they said you couldn' ; t expand it Electoral College to the states. That that was peculiar to the federal system and said you just had to have one person one vote, that' ; s when the one person, one vote started. SHIPP: So the legislature did try to adjust the county unit system. BELL: Yep. They never-- SHIPP: And was not able to do it? BELL: Well, they didn' ; t get around to it because it took an appeal of our decision and they were waiting and when the Supreme Court final decision had to be one person one vote they had to do away with it. They had a popular election and that was when I think got Callaway-Maddox time was-- SHIPP: But that ended the rural domination of the State House in Georgia? BELL: It did, yeah. Right. SHIPP: Was that a good thing? BELL: I think it was. I think it, you can' ; t ever argue against fairness. It was unfair. Now, we turned the election--we turned the apparatus, the political apparatus over to people who were not experienced. That was not a good thing. You have to learn about politics and how to manage power. And we--I' ; m not certain we' ; ve learned it yet but we' ; re struggling, we' ; re working on it. SHIPP: But you have some other tough decisions, what with Heinz County big school desegregation thing? BELL: Yeah. SHIPP: And then we got into busing. Talk a little about that. BELL: I had more school cases than any judge, I think' ; s ever had. I had 140 separate school districts and Judge Tuttle would send me to these hard cases like Augusta where they hang the District Judge in effigy and he recused himself and wouldn' ; t go back over there. Judge Tuttle said for some reason people don' ; t get as mad with you as they do with the rest of us. So, I' ; d get more cases than my share. And, but I never entered a busing order. I was totally opposed to busing to get a racial balance because I thought it was a disadvantage to the children. I thought children ought to have a guardian ad litem against the courts. Because it was almost like punishment, make them get up early in the morning, haul them off somewhere. SHIPP: But now some of your colleagues on the 5th District did have-- BELL: Oh, yeah. We had some buses-- SHIPP: Up in Charlotte, wasn' ; t there a big bussing decision? BELL: Well, the bussed to get a racial balance in Charlotte. And the Supreme Court upheld that. And then at that time it was thought that the 5th Circuit judges would have to do the same thing. And they did to some extent. But by that time I left the bench. SHIPP: And you-- BELL: I never entered a bussing order. SHIPP: You resigned and you went back to King and Spalding, but during your time on the--the fourteen years and later you were on the short list for the Supreme Court under Kennedy, Nixon, Carter, and Reagan. Do you have any regrets you didn' ; t go to the Supreme' ; s Judge? BELL: None. None. And when Carter was there I never thought about going because I would have had to give him the recommendation for people to go on the court and people joked me about that and said you were supposed to get him on Attorney General and he ended up with the job. But, I had a list of people that I would have recommended to President Carter if he had a vacancy. SHIPP: Well you did-- BELL: I wouldn' ; t recommend myself. SHIPP: Well you did select 150 new judges under Carter and up until that time more Hispanics and more blacks than ever before. BELL: And more women. SHIPP: And more women. BELL: Yeah. Well that was President Carter wanted to get that done and I was able to get it done. SHIPP: But that was not a completely happy marriage in the Carter Administration. BELL: No, but it took a lot of trade wood Senators too, to get some of those judges through. SHIPP: You resigned in 1979 and then-- BELL: ' ; 76. ' ; 79 I left the Justice Department. SHIPP: And came back to King and Spalding again. BELL: Right. SHIPP: And then you started handling some famous, very famous, legal cases. E.F. Hutton was one, the-- BELL: Exxon Valdez. SHIPP: Exxon Valdez. The DOW Corning. BELL: Yeah. SHIPP: Tell us about the E.F Hutton decision. That was the case. BELL: Well, there' ; s a formal kiting. Some of the branches were kiting up on banks and a postal inspector in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania found--started the case. And Hutton eventually pleaded guilty, they had New York lawyers and they plead guilty to 2,000 felony counts, all having to do with the kiting. And at the time it looked like Hutton was on the rocks and they thought they ought to have an investigation by somebody to find out exactly what did happen so they could have a public showing of what happened and how they had cured it. So I was employed to do the investigation. It was one of the first big corporate investigations. It led us, in the law firm, to form a new section of the law firm called " ; Special Matters" ; that we still have that and it' ; s, as you know, a private business. There' ; s all sorts of corporate investigations going on in the country. SHIPP: All patterned after that E.F. Hutton investigation, right? BELL: Yeah. Yeah. SHIPP: You came out with a finding, almost like a court, right? BELL: I did, yeah. And had a press conference and announced--they asked me to make it public, have a press conference. Some of them didn' ; t want to have any, publicity to what you find but most of them they will, they don' ; t mind it. Dow Corning was one. Exxon Valdez was a big one. SHIPP: So, Exxon Valdez, there is still a ripple effect from that case going on. BELL: There' ; re still arguing about the punitive damages verdict. That' ; s still going on. SHIPP: And you were representing Exxon and-- BELL: I was representing to do the investigation, not in the litigation, subsequent litigation. My role was to find out what happened. And they had 14 shareholder suits pending against them and based on my investigation all of them were dismissed. So that part of it, that phase of it ended. SHIPP: Tolliver County, tell us about what happened there. BELL: Tolliver County was a small rural county near Augusta and it was a set up there. The Vice President of the Confederacy, Stevens home-- SHIPP: Little Alex. BELL: Yeah, Liberty Hall is in the capital of the -- I mean the county seat. And they had a swimming pool, there was a state park. Liberty Hall is in a state park. So the blacks wanted to use the swimming pool and they did. They gathered and had a march and used the swimming pool and this started--I was not present of course when this happened. I was down in Jacksonville holding court--I' ; ll get to that in a minute. But this led to the school--they found out while they were there that they had been busing all of the white children over into the other adjoining counties and just left the public school black. So among other things Dr. King went over and he was, at one point, on the ground under a school bus so they couldn' ; t move it. And they organized a move to get all the school children between Augusta and Atlanta to march on the capital. Judge Morgan and I were sitting on the bench in Jacksonville along with some other judge and Governor Sanders called me down there and said that they had a bad problem in Atlanta. He said the school children are about to march on the capital and there' ; d be thousands of people marching and he said, " ; Arthur Bolden' ; s here in my office and he tells me that there' ; s a 3-judge district court case pending in Augusta arriving out of this controversy in Tolliver County." ; I said, " ; I don' ; t know anything about that." ; He said, " ; Well you' ; re the chairman of the court." ; I said, " ; Well, the papers haven' ; t reached me." ; He said, " ; Well, we' ; d like to get an injunction against the march." ; I said, " ; Governor, anything you want you' ; ll have to file a motion." ; He said, " ; Oh, we don' ; t want to file a motion." ; I said, " ; Well, you can' ; t get any relief of that kind unless you file a motion." ; So that was the end of the thing. Well that day or the next day we got the papers on that case. And Judge Morgan and I both were assigned to Augusta. And they said they had an emergency because they' ; d put this twelve year old boy in jail for disturbing a worship and it moved him to Wilkes County for safe keeping. He' ; s twelve years old. So the other Judge was Judge Scarlett, who was notoriously conservative as you remember. So, I called Judge Scarlett and said, " ; Do you know the Sheriff of Wilkes County?" ; He said he did. I said, " ; Well, call him and tell him to transfer this prisoner back over there to Tolliver County. He' ; s twelve years old, so he can get out on bond." ; Well he said, " ; I couldn' ; t do that." ; I said, " ; Well then, meet us in Augusta in the morning." ; He said, " ; I can' ; t do that either." ; I said, " ; Well, do one or the other. You either got to come to Augusta or you got to get him out of jail." ; So he got him out. And we got over to Augusta about a week or ten days later and started this hearing and the courthouse was full of people and they brought the twelve year old over and the sheriff and we started the hearing and it turned out to be a hearing about the schools. A real complaint was hauling these white children out of the county and leaving the schools black. So they had Charlie Block and Roy Harris and other--I' ; ve forgotten the other lawyers. But they all are great constitutional lawyers. And the case went on for about a week. Hollowell was there and Howard Moore. SHIPP: Who were black attorneys for the Civil Rights Movement? BELL: Yeah, right. The national press was there. Just scores of reporters, Reggie Murphy was a political reporter for the Constitution and he was there. And it finally dawned on me on what was going on. This was a setup where they were going to force us to put Mrs. Williams in jail. She was a school superintendent, a nice looking woman who was Judge Osgood Williams' ; s sister-in-law here who was a judge in Atlanta. Her husband ran a drug store in this county. And so that was the plan. They were going to--we' ; re going to order the children back, say they had to go to their own school and couldn' ; t go to the next county. She was going to refuse that and then we' ; d have to put her in jail. And this was like a trap. So I sensed that and I during the night I woke up thinking what are we going to do here about this--have to do something. So I came up with the idea of putting the school board in the--the school system in receivership, making the state school superintendent the receiver. I asked Judge Morgan-- Judge Morgan and--Judge Carlton never did want to meet with Judge Morgan because he said he was a Disciple of Judge Tuttle who was another federal judge. SHIPP: Was that a way to say he was too liberal? BELL: Yeah. Meet with them separately. So Judge Morgan agreed to it and then I talked to Judge Scarlett and he said, " ; I said I didn' ; t want to put her in jail. And so I don' ; t agree to it." ; So we entered an order, turned the school system over to the state school superintendent. Next morning in Savannah Morning News had an editorial in which they said that we were dictators. Judge Scarlett called me and said he wanted to get off the order. I said, " ; It' ; s too late. The order' ; s been published and you can' ; t get off after it' ; s been published." ; So, that' ; s the way they thing ended. And the state school superintendent took over and solved it. Now, never again was a school system put in receivership. But I' ; ll bet you fifty times it was threatened. SHIPP: But that set the precedent and they knew what would happen. BELL: Yeah, they knew it could be done. When he got us out of there--later on Roy Harris, I saw Roy Harris at a meeting of the bar association and Roy said, " ; Who' ; s bright idea was it to put the school board in receivership?" ; I said, " ; Well, I had something to do with it." ; He said, " ; I knew that. I knew you were going to figure that out." ; SHIPP: Now Roy Harris had been former Speaker of the House and was a big political king maker in the state and was one of the founders of the White Citizens Council. BELL: Right. Anyway, that was--and the whole thing finally wound down and ended in a-- I don' ; t know what' ; s ever become of the school system but the county' ; s ninety-five percent black. SHIPP: Crawfordville, the county seat. BELL: The most humorous thing that happened in the trial was they brought an elderly colored man, a witness for some reason, and I asked him if he saw anyone disturbing the worship. Said he didn' ; t. I said, " ; Did you see any worship?" ; He said, " ; I never did." ; He said, " ; There was a man there reading the bible." ; Said, " ; He was a sign painter and he was standing out in the park reading the bible and that' ; s the only religious thing I saw happening." ; I said, " ; Is he in the courtroom? That man?" ; He said, " ; He' ; s back there on the back row." ; I said, " ; Which one is he?" ; Said, " ; The one with the shades on." ; (Shipp laughs) Fellow had dark glasses on sitting back there. That was a worship for which they had put the twelve year old boy in jail and sent him to the next county for safe keeping. SHIPP: Did you ever meet with Dr. King? BELL: I never did. SHIPP: You' ; ve never met Dr. King? You met with Hollowell and his attorneys? BELL: I just met with the lawyers, C. B. King from Albany was another one that was always coming to the office with some kind of paper. SHIPP: Who later ran for governor. BELL: Yeah. SHIPP: In 1970-- BELL: And Drew Days, that I appointed head of Civil Rights division at the Department of Justice was with the Ink Fund and he had more school cases than any lawyer in all the cases I had which is about 140. SHIPP: And the Ink Fund was the NAACP' ; s legal defense fund, right? BELL: He was a fine young lawyer. And I settled a lot of cases between the school board lawyers and Drew. So I picked him out to run the Civil Rights Division and did a great job. He' ; s teaching at Yale Law School now. SHIPP: Judge, we spoke earlier about Charlie Block who was a notable constitutional lawyer from Macon and also represented I think Southern Railroad. Tell us a little bit about Mr. Block and your relationship with him and (unintelligible). BELL: Well, he' ; s a much older person than me, at the time, but he was a very respected lawyer that had a long distinguished career and he' ; d gotten off representing the governor in some of these--Governor Griffin and Governor Talmadge, was a big Talmadge supporter. And he became what we called a constitutional lawyer on the integration matters. And he was a great states writer and he thought that the states had retained more power than it turns out they had. And that was his philosophy. And he was also the General State Council for the Southern Railroad. And he had a wide litigation practice on that account ; Southern Railroad did a lot of litigating in those days. So he was in the Tolliver County case, he' ; s in many cases but I haven' ; t--I was a judge in that case. And--along with Roy Harris and some other lawyers that I told you earlier. He also once came to see me to complain about Judge Morgan, a federal district judge and one of my colleagues. He said Judge Morgan had made the statement that, " ; Southern Railroad ought to pay more than their share of the taxes because they were using up more than their share of the courts with their litigation stance." ; And I told him I was glad to talk with him but I hated to disappoint him but I agreed with Judge Morgan. I thought maybe they should. SHIPP: Because at that time Southern Railroad didn' ; t settle any case. BELL: They never did settle any case and wanted to put everything in the court. That was just a light moment. But he was quite serious about his complaint, but I made a light moment out of it. SHIPP: How about telling us about the controversy of the confirmation of Judge Alex Lawrence and the estrangement that occurred, apparently, between Senator Russell and President Johnson. BELL: Judge Lawrence was probably among the top ten lawyers in Georgia. And he was nominated by Senator Russell to be a district judge--he was recommended as a [unintelligible] for nomination to be a district judge in Southern district of Georgia, Savannah. And Ramsey Clark was opposed to him-- SHIPP: Who was the attorney general? BELL: He was attorney general. He was opposed to him on account of a speech he made shortly after the Brown decision, many years before to the Daughters of the American Revolution in which he as speaking of the Brown decision said, " ; Tyranny now comes--wears black robes." ; And Russell was pushing the nomination and went to see Johnson and finally, about it, and finally President Johnson overruled Ramsey and appointed Judge Lawrence. But the American Bar had turned him down. He was one of the best qualified judges there' ; s ever been but the American Barr somehow noticed, committee they had, found him unqualified. So, the American Bar was asked to reinvestigate him and the lawyer from Chicago that they appointed somehow or another mysteriously came to my office at the court house and asked me if I knew Judge Lawrence and so forth and asked me to tell him--give him some names of people to talk to about Judge Lawrence. I said, " ; Well, then tell me who was in interviewed the last time by the ABA." ; And he did. So I gave him some more names. And at that time he got well qualified. SHIPP: Had the right names that time. BELL: Yeah, but anyway, that just caused an estrangement between Russell and Johnson. There' ; s been a book written about it and Russell was embarrassed by the way he was treated and told Johnson so and said he' ; d embarrassed him before the people of Georgia. So when the Abe Fortas Department Chief Justice came up Russell blocked it. And I was talking to Senator Eastland who' ; s chairman of the Judicial Committee and he said that Johnson called him to eat breakfast at the White House and told him that he' ; d talked with everybody and said everything' ; s all set and I' ; m going to make Porter chief justice. Eastland said he talked to Dick Russell. He said, " ; Oh yeah, there' ; s no problem with him." ; He said, " ; There was this morning before I--saw him later this morning and he was very much against him." ; And it was all tied to this event of blocking Judge Lawrence. SHIPP: And he did in fact block him? BELL: He did block him, yeah. Fortas didn' ; t get to be the chief justice and that knocked out Homer Thornberry who was judge on the 5th Circuit from Texas who was one of Johnson' ; s little friends. He was going to take Fortas' ; s place. So he didn' ; t get on the Supreme Court. All this happened, and to confirm that, Gene Patterson who used to be editor of the Constitution went to the Washington Post as one of the editors. He told me that after Johnson got out of office he had a meeting with the editors. Happened to be in Washington, and he told them one of the most disappointing things happened to him because of one obscure federal district judge appointment and he recited all of this to the editors. And that' ; s the end of the story but that' ; s a historic event in the way the nomination and confirmation process operates. SHIPP: Well, you ought to know something about that. When you came up for Attorney General you were not exactly treated with kid gloves before the judiciary committee. Talk a little bit about that confirmation process. BELL: That was one of the most disappointing things I' ; ve ever had to endure and I never--I' ; ve always said I' ; d never stand for confirmation in any other office. The Senate has no due process. And they just grill you and grill you. Grilled me for two weeks. At the end of the first week Senator Byrd called me to his office and told me he wanted me to get rid of--to save the FBI job, keep the man in there who had it. I said, " ; President' ; s already told me to replace that man." ; He said, " ; Well, I' ; m telling you don' ; t replace him." ; I said, " ; I have to do what the President says." ; He said, " ; Well, I' ; ll tell you what I' ; m going to extend your hearing for another week and everybody in the country will come out of the woodwork and testify against you." ; I said, " ; Well, you do what you have to do because I' ; m going to do what I have to do." ; And that' ; s what he did. SHIPP: And in fact a large number of people did testify. BELL: Right. Including Julian Bond and a number of people they found here in Atlanta. And they--after one day of that I asked Senator Eastland who was Chairman if I could be excused so I left and I didn' ; t stay in the Senate the last four days. I didn' ; t want to sit there and have these people--I went back then to see if they had any questions they wanted to ask me. SHIPP: We spoke earlier about you being on the short list for the Supreme Court several times. Do you think you would have had to endure that same kind of grilling? BELL: Oh, absolutely. That was--until the Boyt and Thomas hearings I think mine was one of the worst. SHIPP: And you were not represented by counsel? BELL: I didn' ; t have any lawyer. I just sat there by myself. I didn' ; t have any dolts and didn' ; t have anyone sitting with me. SHIPP: And you had no security. BELL: No security. SHIPP: Tell me why you had no security, not much while you were Attorney General, tell me why you-- BELL: I had a car, and I had a driver. And that' ; s all. And somebody asked me why I didn' ; t want security and I said, " ; Well, I' ; ve been a federal judge in the south and I' ; ve spent many hearing days in Mississippi and Alabama and places like that. Nobody' ; s ever bothered me yet so I don' ; t believe I' ; m going to be bothered in Washington." ; And so I never did have any security. SHIPP: It' ; s my understanding, you tell me whether I' ; m accurate or not, but the entire Georgia delegation with one exception, supported you for Attorney General-- BELL: Right-- SHIPP: And Congressman Carl Vinson had some reluctance? BELL: He had his own candidate. And he was holding out. I think it was first--the senators recommended three of us and they told me that they told Bobby Kennedy, the Attorney General, to take their recommendation in alphabetical order but they were for the first name, that' ; s me. So nine members of the House were asked by the Justice Department which one they favored and nine of them voted for me. Senator Vinson, Congressman Vinson voted for another man from Macon and it looked like he was going to block me after he didn' ; t get it. He got upset about it, apparently. So Mr. John Sibley came into my office at the law firm said, " ; I' ; m going to ride the train. I' ; m going to get the train, go up there and talk to Carl Vinson about this." ; And he said, " ; He shouldn' ; t be holding you up." ; They were friends from Milledgeville. Mr. Sibley moved to Atlanta from Milledgeville. And he came back and said he' ; s going to withdraw his objection, he' ; s going to support you too. So I finally ended up--but ordinarily you don' ; t ask House members. This is unprecedented at the time. SHIPP: But Vinson had been there so long that he was the Dean of Washington. BELL: And President Kennedy' ; s been on his committee when he was in the congress, in the House. And he was a father-figure to a lot of these people. He' ; s a man of great influence. And he probably, if he hadn' ; t withdrawn his objection I probably wouldn' ; t have gotten that appointment. SHIPP: Moving back again, tell me a little bit about your association with Frank Myers in your native Americus when you-- BELL: Frank is a lawyer in Americus ; he' ; s retired now. We grew up together. He was a Navy pilot during World War II and when we got back a lot of us decided we' ; d go to law school. And I was going to Georgia, he went to Georgia, and I was on the way to Georgia and on the way there--I had planned to go to Mercer before the war. I stopped in Macon to see if and ask the Dean if he could get me a job in a law firm while I was going to school. And he said if I made good grades the first quarter he' ; d guarantee me a job. At the time I didn' ; t realize how many -- they hadn' ; t reduced any lawyers during World War II so everybody needed a lawyer but I didn' ; t know that. And he got me a job ; he was true to his word. Frank went on to Georgia and we kept up with each other and then at one point we decided we' ; d open a law office together in Americus. And Frank is a person I admire greatly because when he opened his office he said that, " ; I' ; m going to never turn anybody down who needed representation." ; And he took some of the worst cases and he' ; s almost like the lawyer in To Kill a Mockingbird. I mean, he took cases that you can' ; t imagine what some of them were like, you know, representing a black who was accused of raping a deputy sheriff' ; s daughter and he got an acquittal. That kind of a case. SHIPP: In South Georgia? BELL: Yeah. He just had a successful life and his health finally failed and so he' ; d been up to Duke two or three times and they told him he had to retire so he retired. But he was--he defended [unintelligible], some of the people out there. He' ; d take on popular causes. Not too many lawyers in small towns want to do things like that. SHIPP: Going back to the early part of your-- BELL: You have to admire--I really admire lawyers who do things like that, who will take on popular causes. Mr. Hughes Spalding would do the same thing in Atlanta. He took the case of Dr. Clements when he was elected to the school board and the city Democratic Committee claimed he was a communist. SHIPP: I remember that. BELL: Yeah. Judge Walden, Colonel Walden came up there to see Mr. Spalding said, " ; I need you to help me." ; He took the case. He' ; d do things like that. He thought it was part of a lawyer' ; s duty and Frank Myers is a lawyer that cut. SHIPP: When you went to Mercer you went four quarters passed the Bar and started practicing, is that correct? BELL: Yeah. Well I also continue to go to school. SHIPP: And you were with the City Attorney at Warner Robbins at the same time? BELL: I was but I had to get me a degree. SHIPP: Fast forward again to the time you were Attorney General with Carter. During that three of three and a half years you served in that administration. What was the most difficult thing you faced during that time? BELL: I really never had a case that I thought was all that difficult. I guess it' ; s because I' ; d had all these hard cases as a Federal Judge. By comparison, I never ran across anything quite--that was any tougher than what I' ; d already been used to. But I found the morale of the department was so low. It was shortly after Watergate and I perceived that my highest and best use would be to restore the morale of the department. So I spent a lot of time doing that. I created a special office for improvements in the administration of justice. Brought some professors in to work on that and we were able to get a lot of things done that couldn' ; t do. The courts can' ; t lobby. The Congress frowns very much on a judge lobbying. And so a lot of the things that we did in that office the Supreme Court would ask us to do, or the Judicial Council of the United States--or conference, judicial conference of the United States which is headed by the chief justice and some lower court judges. BELL:--and some lower court judges. And we reformed the bankruptcy laws and we created a magistrate and made that into a more meaningful office. Created a court in Washington, special court of appeals that handles patent cases. Did a lot of things like that. And then I was able to get a recruit, Judge William Webster to run to the FBI, got the FBI in good shape. Changed the mission of the FBI, stop chasing car thieves and bank robbers and started getting into more sophisticated things. And it just a period of time where things needed change and we were able to make changes and restore the morale ; morale went way up. SHIPP: In 1980 you led the American Delegation to the Conference on Security and Cooperation in Europe and you served as co-chairman of the Attorney General' ; s national task force on violent crime? BELL: Right. SHIPP: At that time did you have any idea that we would be facing the kind of international terrorism that we face now? What were the matters that you dealt with mostly? BELL: No, never could--we had all these, we had thirty-four nations represented at this conference in Madrid. And nobody thought anything about any terrorism. And we had spirited debates and I had to make a speech against Soviet Union, course that was what' ; s going on those days. They made one against us. Every head of delegation made a speech. In fact, one of my most humorous stories that happened happened at that meeting. The--we had simultaneous translation. The head of the British Delegation told me he couldn' ; t understand a thing I was saying on account of my accent. So he switched to the French channel and had no problem after that [BOTH laugh]. But terrorism was not mentioned. We couldn' ; t start the meeting because it--a continuation of the meeting, I think the last one was at Helsinki and Parliamentary devices of the Soviets kept us from starting the meeting. And finally the Prime Minister of Spain had us come over to his office, it' ; s 4 o' ; clock in the morning. We' ; d been up all night trying to start the meeting and broke the log jam and we got started at 5 a.m. My wife was with me and when I got back to the hotel she said, " ; Have you gone crazy? Where have you been?" ; [SHIPP laughs] But there wasn' ; t any terrorism in the air then. Nobody thought anything like that. SHIPP: Cold War still going on. BELL: Cold War was it. We seem to have to have a preoccupation with something. Right now terrorism is a big thing. SHIPP: You were a life-long democrat, very active democrat. Very enthusiastic and very successful democrat yet when President Bush the elder started running for office you supported him and you were a key advisor to him and you had represented him in Iran Contra. Would you talk about that relationship some? BELL: Yeah. I' ; ve forgotten, who' ; d he run against? Dukakis. SHIPP: He ran against Dukakis and he ran against Mondale. BELL: Yeah. The first time -- no Mondale ran against Reagan. SHIPP: That' ; s right. Right. He ran against Dukakis in ' ; 88. BELL: Yeah, that' ; s when I voted for President Bush but I didn' ; t take any active role. I don' ; t think I told anybody I voted for him. Didn' ; t--made no public announcement of it. But I met President Bush when he was head of the CIA and I was Attorney General. And he called me to ask me to get him relieved because he was embarrassed to be up there with all the democrats. Said, " ; All my friends are gone and I' ; m still stuck out here at the CIA. See if you can' ; t get something done." ; Well, we' ; d had a delay in picking the head of the CIA because President Carter had in mind a man who it turned out was a conscientious objector in World War II and ten senators called me over to the meeting and told me to tell President Carter they didn' ; t want to embarrass him but they couldn' ; t confirm him. So he had to find somebody else then. So there was a delay. So that' ; s when I met President Bush the first time, and I liked him. And then while he was President I happened to be in Washington for some reason and I was in the White House and I was told that President Bush wanted to see me. He knew I was in the White House. So I went up to his office, the oval office and he started he said, " ; Where' ; d you get such a sun tan?" ; I said, " ; Well, I' ; ve got a house at Sea Island, I' ; ve been out in the sun playing golf down there." ; He said, " ; I went there on my honeymoon. I never have been back. I' ; d like to go back." ; Said, " ; Get me up a golf game and I' ; ll stop there on a trip somewhere." ; Well it turned out he and Barbara finally decided they' ; d come down for the weekend. So they came down and stayed at the hotel and first time they' ; d been back since their honeymoon. And then one other time I did something with him-- SHIPP: How' ; d you get involved in the Iran Contra? BELL: I' ; m going to tell you. I was playing golf. I' ; d been reading about it in the newspaper and I was down at Sea Island playing golf and I got a call and a messenger came out on the golf course and said, " ; The White House is calling you." ; And I said, " ; Well, hit the ball, let' ; s go. I don' ; t ever respond to the White House. They got to have a name before I' ; ll call back. Hundreds of people working at the White House." ; So these guys I was playing golf with sort of startled that I didn' ; t rush in. Well we got in about 45 minutes later and I returned the call and said, " ; President Bush is looking for you. He wants to talk to you." ; Of course I felt terrible then. Still I hadn' ; t called in to begin with. But he said, " ; I' ; ve got a problem here. Iran Contra--the special prosecutor Judge Walsh has named me now as a subject of his investigation after I gave these pardons and I' ; d like to get you to represent me." ; Said, " ; I' ; ve been using Boyden Gray because he was the White House counsel but I need some outside advice." ; So I went on up there and started representing him and we got, found a way out of it. Turned out he had a diary that he' ; d been producing all these records he forgot to produce a diary that he' ; d kept a short period of time, two-three years earlier when he was Vice President. That got to be a big point of controversy with Ward and had some personal references in it. I wouldn' ; t produce it unless he' ; d let me redact those things and he wouldn' ; t do it and I finally compromised it by letting Ward read it and then he gave up, we got that part of it settled. And then he dropped the charges later. SHIPP: Well, now, when President Bush the elder ran against Bill Clinton, where were your support and sympathies? BELL: Oh, I supported President Bush by that time. I did it for a simple reason, I didn' ; t think Clinton was qualified. He' ; d only been the governor of Arkansas. He never worked in Washington a single day and it blew my mind that he could be as qualified as Bush was who had all this foreign policy experience, CIA experience, and whatnot. It turned out Clinton had been studying all his life, I guess to be President and he knew a lot about Washington even though he hadn' ; t been there. But, I didn' ; t support it. SHIPP: But then four years into that he ran against Senator Dole-- BELL: And I represented Dole. SHIPP: You represented Dole? BELL: I didn' ; t represent him, I helped him. SHIPP: So you, by that time, had pretty well left the Democratic Party? BELL: Yeah, I introduced Senator Dole to the students at Georgia Tech the weekend before the election. SHIPP: And then-- BELL: Told them if they would elect him they would have a drug-free White House. [That] got the biggest hand of the night. Bigger hand than he got. (Shipp laughs). SHIPP: Then you represented George W. Bush when he was elected and you were involved in the Florida election controversy. Tell us about that. BELL: Well I didn' ; t do much down there. Jim Baker was actually the lawyer in charge of all the other lawyers. And they assigned me to go watch the ballot counting in Palm Beach, which I did. It seemed to me that they were doing a pretty good job at Palm Beach and so I reported back and I went in to talk with the three election officials. First thing they wanted to do was get my autograph. SHIPP: Must have made the other side a little nervous. BELL: Yeah. We were--anyway, we had a nice visit. They showed me what they were doing if a ballot had any votes where the hole was punched all the way through they counted that ballot because that indicated to them the person knew how to vote and that the machine was working. I thought that was the way they should have been doing it in Fort Lauderdale and these other places, which they weren' ; t doing because we sent people to Fort Lauderdale and they were not doing that. And then I went over to Tallahassee later on and met with Jim Baker and went over some briefs that were being filed and then I--when the case got in the Supreme Court I represented some think tank, I' ; ve forgotten who it was, I think it was maybe one run by-- SHIPP: Who--it wasn' ; t Hudson or Kato? BELL: No, it was another one. What' ; s the preachers name down there? Robertson? SHIPP: Robertson, right. BELL: Robertson, it' ; s one they back. I' ; ve forgotten what it is, anyway they employed me to file amicus briefs and we had a young lawyer in the Washington office that did most of the work on the briefs and he' ; s a young man now who' ; s a Deputy Solicitor General, argues in the Supreme Court all the time. But we filed two or three different briefs for that group. That was a client. SHIPP: Coming forward a little bit, you also were an advisor to Defense Secretary Rumsfeld on military tribunals and of course-- BELL: On the rules. SHIPP: On the rules and of course that is suddenly back in the news big time, military tribunals and the treatment of prisoners and everything. Discuss your role in that matter and discuss your views. BELL: Well we made the rules for the military tribunal and so far they have not had a single trial and it' ; s designed for the Guantanamo prisoners about--I don' ; t think there' ; s any complaints about them. And I' ; ve now been appointed to the review panel of the military tribunal which is like the court of appeals, the same work I used to do. SHIPP: Right. BELL: For those same Guantanamo cases whenever they' ; re tried. They haven' ; t been tried yet, so there' ; s nothing to do and I have not been sworn in but when I am sworn in I told them I' ; d be glad to do this as a volunteer, you know, not charge the government for doing it. They said, No, this was a military tribunal. You had to be an officer in the military to serve on the review panel. So I' ; m going to be made a Major General, commissioned as a Major General to just to do this appellate review work. SHIPP: Well you served in the army you came out a Major, is that right? BELL: Major. Right. SHIPP: In World War II? BELL: It' ; s a big jump in rank. (BOTH laugh) I recently had to go to Walter Reid Hospital to get examined. SHIPP: To go back to the military (Shipp laughs). BELL: I think--I' ; m sure they had to give me some waivers on many of my ailments, but I don' ; t think it' ; s going to take more than two or three months to do this. Once they have a trial. They never have had a trial yet. SHIPP: What' ; s your view of all the controversy going on now about the treatment of prisoners and talk about the Geneva Convention and-- BELL: Well, you know, I don' ; t really want to say much about that because I' ; m not--I haven' ; t studied the law of war yet and I have to get up to date on all those things. But the rules that were made up for the Guantanamo prisoners are good rules. They' ; re almost the same, almost as good as soldiers get, our own soldiers get. And the review tribunal I' ; ve seen those rules and we can actually reduce sentences. We can' ; t increase them but we can reduce sentences. And then we can be overruled by the President and I' ; m assuming that means the Secretary of Defense as well since he works for the President. So it seems to me that' ; s a good system. Now those people over their--they' ; re holding in Iraq, some of those people will be released, some of them will be tried by the new Iraqi government. I haven' ; t heard anything about any of them being tried by the U.S., same with Afghanistan. The only one I' ; ve heard anything about being tried are the ones in Guantanamo. Now running those prisoners overseas that' ; s a whole different story there, trying to get information out of them and what they did to them. SHIPP: The other big major recent controversy you were involved in was a committee that studied what happened in the Robert Hanssen case. Robert Hanssen being the chief FBI counterintelligence man who turned out to be a Russian spy. BELL: Not only was he a spy, he caused several Russian people that were helping us in Russia to be put to death. He should have got the death penalty himself. SHIPP: What did you determine in investigating--the method of handling that case? BELL: Well, there' ; s a written report so I' ; m not telling anything I shouldn' ; t tell, a public report that we made, the seven of us under Director Webster who was the Chairman. All of us had experience in this sort of thing. This man was paid to be a Russian spy. His wife found out about it and objected and made him go to a priest. And this was over a ten year period. He went to the priest and confessed and the priest told him just don' ; t spy anymore but give the money they paid you, you' ; ve got to give that to charity. That' ; s all that happened. Wife went and told a brother who was an agent about it. And the brother reported it to the special agent in charge in this particular office which I think was in Chicago as I remember it. And they did nothing about it. This man, he was in the intelligence end of the FBI and he was seeing all the secrets and knew who all our people were who had given us information. He had access too all that kind of information and he' ; s feeding it back to them, so he quit spying for about three years. But of course they knew him and knew how to get in touch with him. They got in touch with him again and he decided he' ; d start again and he by that time he had a wife and seven or eight children but he had a girlfriend and he was getting money for her. And they finally caught him, but it was a lack of controls. SHIPP: Judge, a few years ago and I believe it was in the Reagan Administration or the first Bush Administration the CIA operative named Eugene Hasenfus fell into the hands of the communist regime in Nicaragua and they were about to shoot him and you wound up representing him in his trial. Tell us about those harrowing days. BELL: Well the, one of assistant Secretaries of State, well--earlier than Hasenfus was from Wisconsin, I' ; ve forgotten the name of the smaller town but not Milwaukee but he had a lawyer up there. His family got a lawyer after he was captured and the state department, assistant secretary for Inter-American Affairs, Latin American Affairs was in the matter and there' ; s two of them. One or the other called me at my house at Sea Island to see if I would take the case and go down there and get him out. I recommended they get former Vice President Mondale of Cyrus Vance. Mondale told them that it wasn' ; t his type case. And Vance told them he had to go to Europe. So he called me back and they said they' ; re getting ready to try him for Kangaroo court, probably going to execute him. So I said, " ; Okay, I' ; ll go. I' ; ll do it." ; My wife heard all this. She thought I' ; d gone crazy. And so I did and you know [unintelligible] went with us. And I got one lawyer from the law firm and then a young lawyer in Atlanta named Taylor Boone was in church at Sunday and the preacher was preaching a sermon on something to help other people so he was sitting there and he thought, " ; Well, you know I ought to go help on the Hasenfus case because I speak fluent Spanish. Probably Judge Bell can' ; t speak Spanish and I might be of some help." ; And he had some experience in foreign law practice. So he volunteered to go so that was a team, plus a lawyer from Milwaukee. And we all went down there and we did pretty well the first week as you recall. They--we stayed in the hotel. Didn' ; t get shot although there was young people with AK-47' ; s all over the place. We were trying the case to some extent in the media, particularly television. And Ortega, the dictator, while we were there went out to the Coca-Cola plant which they' ; d taken over but this was symbolic. Made a speech about Senor Bell being there to represent Hasenfus. Said, " ; Senor Bell is a rich lawyer. Hasenfus is a poor man. Who' ; s paying Senor Bell?" ; And the crowd would shout, " ; Reagan, Reagan [with Spanish accent pronounced Ree-gen]" ; meaning President Reagan. Course I wasn' ; t being paid at all. Never was paid. But it was a volunteer thing. But Ramsey Clark had gone down there and gotten there ahead of me and they put him up in the finest suite in the hotel and he told them that I was working for the CIA. And of course that poisoned the water before I could even get started down there. And then they set the trial for maybe two weeks later, something like that. When I got back down there the second time they took my luggage and I didn' ; t have any clothes for three days. They wouldn' ; t let me use the hotel. I had to go stay with the Ambassador to Ambassadors residence and we went to the trial, I can' ; t remember, we went to trial the first trip or the second trip but it was bad. Anyway, they never did execute him. They had him--convicted him, had him in jail. Wouldn' ; t let us talk to him and I came back home thinking this was just a failure. Senator Dodd from Connecticut called me up and said he was going down there that as a young man he was in the Peace Corps in Nicaragua and he wanted to know if I would object to him interviewing Hasenfus. He was going to ask Ortega to go to prisoner and interview Hasenfus. And I said, " ; No, that' ; ll be fine. I hope you can interview him." ; But I said, " ; While you' ; re down there if you' ; ll tell them you need him as a witness against, in the Iran Contra investigation they might let him go." ; So he said he' ; d try that. And that' ; s how he got out. And then never used him as a witness. It turned out in the hearing they didn' ; t need him. But he did--they did release him and we had--I sent a lawyer to Miami to meet him when they brought him into Miami. SHIPP: And he later returned home and had more children, one of whom he named for you. BELL: Name, well, for the three of us: Warner Hayes, Taylor Boone, and me. He was--he' ; s got three names, three given names. It' ; s an exciting thing and one of the interesting side stories is Dr. Lowery who is head of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference was invited to come down to witness the trial. Ortega called him and said they needed somebody to come who would testify that the trial was fair, that sort of thing. So Dr. Lowery, unbeknownst to Ortega Dr. Lowery called me to see if he ought to go. So I suggested he go. And then they put him in the hotel but they wouldn' ; t let me meet with him. That was the second week. But he had Reverend Oswell with him who was Mrs. King' ; s first cousin. He worked for SCLC as well. And he would meet with me and tell me what was going on. And that was quite helpful. Dr. Lowery was helpful and when he was released I gave Senator Dodd and Reverend Lowery all the credit for getting him released. And Dr. Lowery called me and asked me if I wanted to run for office. I told him I did not and he said, " ; Well, if you do I can get you lots of votes." ; Said, " ; You' ; re the first person that' ; s ever given me credit for anything." ; (laughter) SHIPP: You mentioned Dr. King and before we started the tape here you mentioned two of the great national mysteries, one being the assassination of President Kennedy that Senator Russell certainly had some doubts about the conclusion and I believe you said that--when you were I the Justice Department as Attorney General you reopened or had reinvestigated the assassination of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. BELL: I did, yeah. It had been, I think it had been investigated twice before but I ordered them to reinvestigate because I could not believe that a person who had been at school through third grade, been in prison most of his life could escape from prison, end up with an automobile and a rifle and have a passport. He could go to Canada and ended up in London. How all that could be done by one man who just escaped prison. So I thought there was somebody else in it. Well we never found out who it was. And that, to this day, nobody knows who it was. SHIPP: Same conclusion. BELL: Yeah. SHIPP: Is there anything-- BELL: One more great mystery to me is Deep Throat. I always had an idea that somehow or another Russians were mixed up with the Deep Throat. SHIPP: Deep Throat was the confidential source of the Washington Post who broke Water Gate. Who do you think Deep Throat was? BELL: Well, I suggested to the CIA that the Russians may have been tapping the phone lines and picking up the recording since Nixon was recording everything. And they said, " ; Oh, that' ; s impossible. That didn' ; t happen." ; But I believe it could have happened and I thought maybe they were feeding the information back out. SHIPP: To the Washington Post. BELL: Yeah. SHIPP: And those two reporters are still famous and became millionaires or multi-millionaires on the basis of that. BELL: Yeah. And nobody knows yet who Deep Throat was. Never have told, but if it was the Russians it was the greatest foreign intelligence cue in the history of the world. They broke down the government of this country. SHIPP: Couldn' ; t you also argue that terrorist were largely responsible for ending Carter' ; s political career also? BELL: Oh yeah. The Iranians. SHIPP: You' ; re an old Mercer man but in 1998 you were the 73rd recipient of an honorary Doctor of Laws degree at the University of Georgia. I' ; d like to mention that since we' ; re doing this under the auspices of the University of Georgia and then earlier this year you received the Atlanta Bar Associations highest honor. In looking back over your very distinguished career and having seen so much history. What do you think was the high point and the low point of some of--where did things really change and where did we start into the modern era we are now? BELL: I think in my generation I feel like I was born with one foot in the old South and one foot in the new South and I think that was the dividing line. And it probably came from people who served in World War II. We frequently we' ; re called the Greatest Generation but we were the first generation of Americans that got college degrees. And I think that had something to do with it. And the generation before me just couldn' ; t handle the changes that we had to go through. It was too much for them. And I think it was my own generation that had brought about the changes. I think of all the people who were in the Vandiver Administration, all the young people, we were young then, and how we saw things differently. I know the first time I ever reflected on the fact that--of the kind of school we gave the blacks it struck me that this kind of thing can' ; t last. They' ; re really getting a second-rate education while the whites are getting much better education. And once you start seeing things like that, you know, you know what' ; s going to change. And the question is how do you change? How can you bring about change? How can you adjust to change? And I think amongst the greatest things my own generation has done is adjusted to the change and lead into change. That would be the way I' ; d come out. SHIPP: Well, we' ; ve moved now into a generation very few of whom have had any military experience or traveled as widely as your generation. We seem to be--some people say we' ; re sliding back into a very conservative, maybe even towards an isolationist era in public opinion, what do you think of that? BELL: I think, well, I think the way we' ; re reacting to Iraq we got two things going on at the same time. We got terrorism in the background but we' ; re trying to spread democracy, spread human rights and there' ; s a price you have to pay to do that. And we' ; re paying the price in Iraq. But Iraq is, on a grand scale, maybe one of the most important things ever done because if we could settle out the problems of the Middle East the terrorism problem would go away. The Palestinian-Israeli problem would be solved and all that part of the world, given the fact that modern communication, is like being next door. We have to deal with those sorts of things. I think Iraq is a key and but it has to be done successfully. We have to have the staying power. We just can' ; t cut and run every time we have a problem. And we got in there now we need to stay in there until we get it straightened out. I went back and was reading a biography of General McArthur and they brought up in the beginning the fact that his father failed in the Philippines after--the Spanish gave us the Philippines in the Spanish-American war. Course they had so much problem with the natives, former terrorism and sent General McArthur' ; s father there to command it, straighten it out. He failed. In two years he hadn' ; t straightened it out. They then sent William Howard Taft who later became President but at that time was a U.S. Circuit judge over there as a Civilian Administrator. Took three more years, took five years to ever get the Philippines straightened out. It may take that long in Iraq and we have to have the patience to do that and I' ; m not certain the younger generation is for that. I don' ; t know if they have that much staying power. Course, they haven' ; t had that much experience. They don' ; t think in long term ways and I think even the television has something to do with that. We have instant news. We don' ; t have any reflection. We don' ; t think deeply. We don' ; t read deeply. And I think that is all bad. SHIPP: Are you optimistic about the future? BELL: I am. SHIPP: Are you optimistic about the South? BELL: I' ; m optimistic about the South particularly and I see part of the country almost socialist way taking care of people. But I think the South and the West are the great hopes. And I think we' ; ll find some leaders. I think we don' ; t have as many leaders as we should. For some reason, I don' ; t understand why we don' ; t have more leaders. I think polling has something to do with it. Polling keeps you from leading. It gets you where you won' ; t take a risk. And big business people that start new business, that sort of thing. They take risk. You take--we' ; re taking a risk in Iraq. And it' ; s costing a lot. But I think you have to have somebody that has a vision to see those sorts of things. And we have certain institutions that are ineffective. United Nations is ineffective. It' ; s good for some thing but it' ; s certainly not good as a peacekeeper. It' ; s not good as somebody to keep order. And NATO should be expanded I think. I think the President may be working in that direction. But you don' ; t just have to have European countries. There' ; s other countries that we ought to get into something like NATO and they ought to be people who will help with the hard things and then we ought to have somebody that maintains the peace. We ought not to have to do both. And we need to work toward that way. Another thing I don' ; t think we' ; re doing is I had high hopes that President Bush and Putin would get together and deal with the Israeli-Palestinian problem. The Russians have great influence in the Middle East. They' ; re not doing anything. They need to be brought into the equation. If you had Bush and Putin cooperating on the same problem we' ; d get it solved. SHIPP: Going back to your days as a young man in the Vandiver Administration with a solid south, solid democrats. Did you ever think you' ; d see the day we were the solid again and a solid republican? BELL: No I never did. You know, Reggie Murphy' ; s got in his biography of me the story of my mother when I went to see her about--to tell her I was going to be the Kennedy Campaign manager and that he was a Roman Catholic. She' ; s granddaughter of a Baptist preacher and I was worried about what she says and what she thought about it. And she said, " ; I already knew about it. I read it in the newspaper." ; And said, " ; I thought about it a lot and I' ; d rather you support a Roman Catholic than a Republican." ; (Shipp laughs) SHIPP: Our very patient and gracious guests today has been Judge Griffin B. Bell who is one of the more remarkable citizens to be produced in the Georgia political arena and in his 50 years of practicing law in public and private life who has probably seen more and participated in more history than any other Georgian that I know. Thank you very much Judge Bell. BELL: Good. I' ; ve enjoyed it. [End of Interview] Resources may be used under the guidelines described by the U.S. Copyright Office in Section 107, Title 17, United States Code (Fair use). Parties interested in production or commercial use of the resources should contact the Russell Library for a fee schedule. video 0 RBRL175OHD-002.xml RBRL175OHD-002.xml http://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL175OHD/findingaid http://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL175OHD-002/findingaid
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84 minutes
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Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
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Interview with Judge Griffin B. Bell, June 15, 2004
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RBRL175OHD-002
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Griffin Bell
Bill Shipp
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oral histories
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Federal government--United States
School integration
Civil rights
Iran-Contra Affair, 1985-1990
Politics and Public Policy
United States--Civil rights
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Bill Shipp interviews Griffin Bell about his career and his tenure as U.S. Attorney General (1977-1979). Bell comments on the integration of Georgia schools and the University of Georgia, the Kennedy presidential campaign in Georgia, and Martin Luther King's releases from jail in Georgia. Griffin discusses the abolished county unit system and on the E.F. Hutton and Exxon Valdez cases. Bell recalls his time as an attorney supporting the civil rights movement, his relationship with Charlie Block, and the confirmation of Judge Alex Lawrence. He reflects on the estrangement between President Johnson and Richard B. Russell and his own confirmation as attorney general. Bell discusses his time as attorney general under President Carter, attending the Conference on Security and Cooperation in Europe, and his support of President George H.W. Bush. Bell also weighs in on the Iran-Contra affair, his role in the Florida Election Controversy, and the Watergate source Deep Throat.<br /><br /><span>Griffin Boyette Bell was born in 1918, in Sumter County, Georgia. After attending Georgia Southwestern College for a time, Bell left to work in his father’s tire store in Americus. He was drafted in 1942, serving in the Army Quartermaster Corps and the Transportation Corps at Fort Lee, Virginia. Upon his discharge in 1946, he enrolled in Mercer University Law School, and became city attorney of Warner Robins before graduating or passing the Georgia bar exam. Following his graduation he worked in Savannah and Rome before joining in 1953 the lawfirm that would become King and Spalding in Atlanta. His interest in politics led to his appointment to chief of staff for Governor Ernest Vandiver and his subsequent involvement with the Sibley Commission, organized to oversee desegregation of Georgia’s public schools. In 1961 President John F. Kennedy appointed Bell to the Fifth U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, and he spent 14 years on the bench, returning to King and Spalding only to be nominated U.S. Attorney General by Jimmy Carter in 1976. He served in that position from 1977 to 1979, returning to Atlanta to practice law. He led investigations of E.F. Hutton in 1985 and the Exxon Valdez oil spill in 1989, and also served on the Commission of Federal Ethics Law Reform at the request of President George H.W. Bush.<br /><br />Murphy, Reg. Uncommon Sense: The Achievement of Griffin Bell (Atlanta: Longstreet, 1999).</span>
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2004-06-15
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Georgia
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moving image
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Richard B. Russell Library Oral History Documentary Collection
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Oral history collection consisting of interviews conducted for the Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies since 2003.<br /><br /><a href="http://georgiaoralhistory.libs.uga.edu/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=&range=&collection=3&type=&tags=OHMS&featured=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">View all OHMS indexed interviews in this collection here. </a>
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Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
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Georgia
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5.3 Interview with Charles Campbell, May 5, 2009 RBRL175OHD-011 RBRL175OHD Richard B. Russell Library Oral History Documentary Collection OHD-011 Interview with Charles Campbell finding aid Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies, University of Georgia Charles Campbell Sally Russell Warrington 1:|19(8)|41(5)|59(2)|76(7)|94(4)|109(8)|127(3)|154(8)|171(5)|185(8)|198(3)|212(6)|227(1)|242(9)|259(1)|270(7)|281(15)|300(2)|313(9)|328(13)|345(3)|358(2)|372(10)|393(1)|406(2)|425(16)|443(6)|460(9)|474(6)|491(7)|513(4)|527(2)|541(11)|551(11)|563(10)|587(9)|599(8)|609(12)|625(8)|638(4)|648(13)|663(3)|675(9)|688(15)|700(16)|711(11)|726(17)|745(2)|762(11)|775(16)|787(5)|801(1)|815(17)|829(8)|842(2)|857(8)|871(2)|883(1)|894(11)|909(6)|928(4)|938(14)|950(8)|966(9)|983(8)|997(11)|1014(1)|1024(10)|1041(7)|1053(1)|1067(5)|1084(9)|1098(13)|1111(14)|1125(3)|1136(12)|1154(10)|1167(2)|1184(4)|1196(4)|1208(6)|1222(11)|1240(12)|1250(15)|1262(9)|1275(5)|1294(11)|1304(4)|1315(1)|1329(2)|1342(4)|1352(12)|1366(12)|1377(5)|1389(4)|1401(2)|1415(6)|1426(4) 0 http://youtu.be/ZC79DzOEbm8 YouTube video 0 Introduction Good morning. Interviewer Sally Russell Warrington introduces interviewee Charles Campbell. chairman ; Russell Foundation 17 35 Work for Senator Russell I would like to ask you to start with telling us when you came to work for Senator Russell and maybe a little bit why you were a very young man. Campbell talks about how he got the opportunity to work for Senator Richard B Russell so soon after obtaining his Master's Degree from the University of Georgia. blue key ; Butts County ; homecoming award ; Jackson, Ga ; law school ; National Honor Society ; political science ; University of Georgia 17 154 Washington, D.C. / Law school So how did you feel giving up your idea of going to law school-- you've told me a little story which we'll get into in just a minute. Campbell talks about the struggle of working in Senator Russell's office and attending law school at night. Campbell shares how he was thinking about dropping out of law school until Russell encouraged him to finish his degree. advice ; Georgetown University ; Jack Flynt ; law school ; reserved 17 457 Relationship with Senator Russell Well, yesterday you told me a little bit about the difference in Washington Russell and the Russell that you got to know when you were traveling some with him. Campbell talks about the difference between the Russell when he was in Washington and when he was back at home. Campbell also talks about Russell's relationship with his staff. Babs Raesly ; Herman Talmadge ; legislative assistant ; Proctor Jones ; Warren Commission ; Washington DC ; Winder, Ga 17 848 Russell's relationship with other Senators Well, you spoke to me about the difference in the fact that he was respected but not necessarily liked by the other senators. Campbell talks about how Russell did not have many personal relationships with other Senators, but he had good professional relationships with his fellow Senators. Armed Services Committee ; Edward Kennedy ; emphysema ; Herman Talmadge ; John Stennis ; Leverett Saltonstall ; Lyndon Johnson ; prison reform 17 1163 Russell's defense of Georgia / Civil Rights Well, that's one of the things that I've been impressed with in my work is how much he loved Georgia and the South but the nation, too. Campbell talks about Russell's love for the South and Georgia. Russell was very sensitive about any criticism directed towards Georgia. He goes on to talk about Russell's views on Civil Rights, and he talks about Russell's cooperation once Civil Rights legislation was passed. Berry College ; Civil Rights Act ; Civil War ; filibuster ; Martin Luther King Jr ; Rome, Ga ; sit-ins ; Southern Caucus ; Strom Thurman ; United Nations 17 1664 Russell's Senate career You've spoken about all the things that he did. Campbell talks a little bit about Russell's early Senate career, and he shares the story of how Russell was appointed to the Appropriations Committee his first year. Campbell later goes on to talk about all of Russell's accomplishments in his Senate career. Agriculture Appropriations Subcommittee ; Appropriations Committee ; Court Packing Plan ; food stamp program ; Franklin D. Roosevelt ; Lyndon Johnson ; majority leader ; New Deal ; Senate Space Committee 17 2147 Russell's views on race relations Tell us about Senator Edward Brooke and what you saw in his relationship with Russell. Campbell talks about Senator Russell's segregationist views, and he makes sure to state that Russell was not anti-black. Campbell goes on to speculate that if Russell had been exposed to powerful Blacks like President Obama, Andrew Young, or Martin Luther King, his opinions on segregation would have been different. Armed Services Committee ; Brown v Board of Education ; Civil Rights ; Edward Brooke ; Marietta, Ga ; Plessy V Ferguson ; segregationist 17 2782 Russell's leadership Maybe you could speak to that a little bit in the fact that he did have a perception of himself as a leader. Campbell talks about Senator Russell's leadership style of leading by example. He also talks about Russell's strengths and weaknesses as a Senator. Atlanta Braves ; Civil Rights ; congressional directory ; leadership ; Meet the Press ; Red China ; school lunch program ; Vietnam War 17 3364 The Russell Foundation I'd like to talk a little bit about the Russell Foundation. Campbell talks about the creation of the Russell Foundation. He later talks about how he became the chairman and why the job was so satisfying. Dr. Aderhold ; foot soldier project ; Herman Talmadge ; Judge William Norton ; Russell Foundation ; Russell Library ; Russell Senate Office Building ; Russell Symposium ; University of Georgia ; Woodruff Foundation 17 4210 Russell's legacy / Legacy in national security I was looking through your talk you made when you resigned from the -- not resigned, but stepped down from the chairman -- Campbell talks about Senator Russell's legacy in the Senate and in national security. agriculture ; Armed Services Committee ; atomic energy program ; career ; CIA oversight committee ; Cold War ; Douglas McArthur ; memorial stamp ; Naval Affairs Committee ; space program ; World War II 17 4632 Russell's legacy in research The other part of his legacy that I think is maybe not as well known that the area he promoted so much research -- scientific and agricultural, the nuclear, could you speak about that? Campbell talks about Russell's efforts to gain research funding and facilities for Georgia. Russell found researching very important. agricultural research ; Appropriations Committee ; earmarks ; funding ; research ; scientific research 17 4920 Russell's simplistic lifestyle One thing that you spoke about, which I think is worth knowing is that Russell led a very simple life, that he didn't try to enrich himself by his public office. Campbell and Warrington talk about Senator Russell's simplistic and frugal lifestyle. He owned a small one bedroom apartment in DC and a small estate in Winder, Ga. Abraham Ribicoff ; bachelor ; estate ; Foggy Bottom ; frugal ; Lyndon B Johnson ; Winder, Ga 17 5269 Work Horses and Show Horses / Constituent letters We have talked about this a little bit, but maybe we could emphasize a little bit more or discuss a little bit more how he was a workhorse as opposed to a show horse in the Senate. Campbell talks about Senator Russel's work ethic and how he was considered a work horse rather than a show horse. He was very devoted to his job. Campbell goes on to talk about the special attention Senator Russell's office gave to responding to constituent letters. constituents ; Douglas McArthur ; Herman Talmadge ; letter writing ; nut pile ; show horse ; work horse 17 5711 Russell's influence on Campbell I hate to close this down but I know people have got to go. Campbell talks about the qualities that he admired in Senator Russell and how his qualities were an influence on Campbell's law career. Civil Rights ; integrity ; national security ; trial lawyer ; Vietnam War 17 Oral History SALLY RUSSELL WARRINGTON: Good morning. I' ; m Sally Russell Warrington and this morning at the Richard B. Russell Center for Political Research and Studies we are interviewing Charles Campbell who was Richard Russell' ; s last administrative assistant and who has been president of the foundation-- CHARLES CAMPBELL: Chairman. WARRINGTON: Chairman of the Russell Foundation for 17 years. He has stepped down from that job and we' ; re glad to have you this morning, Charles. CAMPBELL: Thank you, thank you, glad to be here. WARRINGTON: I would like to ask you to start with telling us when you came to work for Senator Russell and maybe a little bit why you were a very young man. Were you only about 22 or 23 weren' ; t you? CAMPBELL: Well, it was in 1965 and I was born in 1942, so I would have been 23 but it really happened quite by accident. In the fall of 1965 I was in graduate school here at the University of Georgia working on a master' ; s degree, getting ready to go to law school. WARRINGTON: And your master' ; s was in what? CAMPBELL: Political Science. I graduated in ' ; 64 and an organization I had been active in and an officer of my senior year, Blue Key National Honor Society was giving Senator Russell a homecoming award at a banquet to be held in October of 1965. And it so happened that my roommate at the time was then the president of the Georgia Chapter Blue Key and so he asked me if I would be willing to introduce Senator Russell at this banquet. I' ; d never met him. Of course, I' ; d heard of him but didn' ; t know frankly a whole lot. I knew he had a distinguished career and was a very powerful senator. WARRINGTON: Can I just ask you to say where you' ; re form? CAMPBELL: Jackson, Georgia is where I grew up. My father was a county agriculture agent, so we moved around a lot but most of my grownup years were in Butts County. WARRINGTON: That' ; s pretty much right in--Jackson, is it middle Georgia? CAMPBELL: Yes, between Griffin and Monticello, right near I-75. WARRINGTON: That' ; s where I' ; m picturing it. CAMPBELL: But at any rate, so I introduced Senator Russell at this October 1965 banquet and about a week later I got a call from his office wanting to know if I was interested in joining his staff, so that was about it. And then I completed my coursework in December of ' ; 65 and immediately went to Washington and joined his staff where I worked until January of ' ; 71 when he died. WARRINGTON: So how did you feel about giving up your idea of going to law school--you' ; ve told me a little story which we' ; ll get to in just a minute. But to give up that idea and go up there, I mean, what attracted you more to this than what you were doing? CAMPBELL: Well, of course, going to work for a United States Senator, any United States Senator would have been a great opportunity, but going to work for Richard Russell was even a greater opportunity and, of course, I' ; d majored in political science, so I had an interest in politics and government. And I really loved the University of Georgia and I was looking forward to going to law school here but it was, kind of a no-brainer. I thought it was a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity and it turned out that it was. It was a real career changing opportunity. WARRINGTON: You said your father was a county agent, did he advise you any on that or-- CAMPBELL: No, I don' ; t think I asked anybody about it. I think I immediately accepted on the phone. There was a little complication because the congressman from my district had offered me a job on his staff. WARRINGTON: Who was that? CAMPBELL: Jack Flynt and we had some miscommunication because later his officer claimed that he thought that I was going to accept that and Senator Russell had, kind of, preempted it and so forth, but I really had not planned to go to Washington to work in a congressman' ; s office. I was going to go to law school here. But I didn' ; t have any long, deliberative process about it and consult with a bunch of people. It seemed to me to be a wonderful opportunity and, of course, I could go to law school at night up there. That was the other thing I did talk to Senator Russell' ; s staff about and they said, " ; Absolutely. That' ; d be no problem." ; WARRINGTON: So where did you go to law school at? CAMPBELL: I went to Georgetown Law School. WARRINGTON: Would you tell us that story about some advice that Senator Russell gave you that was good advice. CAMPBELL: Yeah, Senator Russell was a very, shall we say, reserved person. He didn' ; t get into a lot of emotional conversation with you. He didn' ; t express his inner sentiments a lot. He' ; s just a very reserved, some people would even say shy, sort of person. But once he got to know you and was comfortable with you, you know, It was a completely different personality. But the only advice he ever gave me--I became concerned at one point that I was taking on too much, that I wasn' ; t doing a very good job in law school and I wasn' ; t doing a very good job in his office. So I went to him one time. I said, " ; Senator, I' ; m thinking about dropping out of law school because I just don' ; t think that I' ; m doing justice to your office or to the law school." ; And he said, " ; You stay in law school and you get married," ; very matter-of-factly, and that was that. WARRINGTON: So how did you manage that then? Did you feel that you would stay in law school? You continued to work, I know. CAMPBELL: I mean, I could make passing grades but I was used to making A' ; s and B' ; s and Georgetown was, you know, a pretty difficult law school. But yeah, I struggled through and it' ; s probably not a great way to go to law school because you' ; re not focused. I mean, if you' ; re working all day. But the reason I had the conversation with him was I would have to leave four days a week at 5:30 to go to law school and things were a lot of times cranking up then in the office and I felt bad about that. So that was what prompted the conversation. WARRINGTON: I don' ; t know how you would have had any time to study. CAMPBELL: Weekends. I would generally go four nights a week and Saturday morning, or five nights a week depending on what courses I was taking. WARRINGTON: Did your work in the government help with that at all? The fact that you had some practical experience? CAMPBELL: It may have helped a little but I don' ; t think a whole lot and frankly, I took what I considered to be the easiest courses in law school because that made it easier. I didn' ; t, for example, take any tax courses which was a mistake going into civil law practice because that' ; s one of the most important areas. But I took international law courses because that had been one of my concentrations in undergraduate and graduate school and I knew a lot about that area but it wasn' ; t any good at all for me in the law practice. But it was a matter of being able to satisfactorily do both of them at one time. WARRINGTON: Well, lawyers have always had to learn on the job. I mean, that' ; s the way they learned to start with. They didn' ; t even have law schools, so you' ; re just carrying out that tradition. CAMPBELL: And Senator Russell was very understanding about it as the conversation that I' ; ve related illustrates, he wanted me to stay in law school and get my law degree. WARRINGTON: Right, and he spoke about getting married because he was always questioned about being a bachelor. CAMPBELL: Well, I was a young single person and he probably said that, you know, he' ; s probably enjoying the social life up here a lot and so forth. So I didn' ; t really have a lot of time to do that but-- WARRINGTON: Well, yesterday you told me a little bit about the different in the Washington Russell and the Russell that you got to know when you were traveling some with him. Would you tell us a little bit about that? CAMPBELL: One of the most fortuitous things that happened to me was not long after I got there, Proctor Jones, who was kind of his personal assistant and very close to him-- WARRINGTON: What was your title to-- CAMPBELL: I started off as legislative assistant for about two years. That was really a misnomer. It was really a glorified mail answerer is what it amounted to. I didn' ; t write any legislation or anything of that kind. Senator Russell wrote his own legislation and then after two years I became executive secretary and then I became administrative assistant, which is now chief of staff. They changed the name of it--for about the last two years or year and a half--but he was-- WARRINGTON: He must have had a lot of confidence in you. You were very young to have those positions. CAMPBELL: Well, there was a lot of turnover on his staff. There were a lot of people that had been there a long time and these were people that were committed to staying in Washington, and so they could see that Senator Russell wasn' ; t going to be there too much longer, so some of them went to committees. For example, Bill Jordon went to the appropriations committee and Proctor did eventually. But I was never planning on staying in Washington. I was always coming back to Georgia to practice law, so that' ; s one of the reasons I think that I rose pretty rapidly. But getting back to your question about getting to know him, the fact that Proctor went into the Marine Corp for almost two years meant that I had the opportunity to travel with him a lot which I probably would not have had if Proctor had been there and that really gave you the opportunity to get to know him because in Washington it was a completely different environment. He was harried, had way too much to do and, of course, he wasn' ; t in the best of health in most of the years that I was with him. So you didn' ; t have a lot of time for joking around, you didn' ; t see a lot of illustrations, for example, of his great sense of humor. But when I would travel with him away from Washington, either to Winder on weekends, or on a few campaign events in ' ; 66 that we traveled to or to military bases, then you would get to see what I considered to be the real Richard Russell. WARRINGTON: How do you think his staff in general felt about him in those last years? I know that there were some difficult times. CAMPBELL: Well, one of the weaknesses of Senator Russell, and he didn' ; t have very many, is that he had very little interaction with 90 percent of his staff. He almost never walked through the office. In fact, when I became administrative assistant, I started trying to encourage him to do that more. And a couple of times it didn' ; t work very well because there was some nut in the office about the Warren Commission that accosted him and started asking him questions. But he saw on a regular basis, Babs Raesly, his personal secretary. Bill Jordon, until he left. Bill, kind of ran the office when I got there. Leeman Anderson had the title of administrative assistant. He had been with Senator Russell since the ' ; 30s but he was in very poor health and wasn' ; t really functioning as running the office. Of course, the press secretary, which changed a couple of times while I was there. Proctor saw a lot of him, and myself and that was kind of it. WARRINGTON: Well, he, kind of, had a reputation for keeping a small staff, didn' ; t he? CAMPBELL: Yes, we referred to it as--he and Senator Talmadge had a conspiracy to keep staff salaries down, not only the size of the staff but the salaries. When I was administrative assistant, Bo Ginn was administrative assistant to Senator Talmadge and we used to argue about whether he was the 98th or 99th lowest paid administrative assistant and I was the 98th or 99th. We referred to each other as 98 and 99. But he had a very small staff. He was the last senator to hire a press secretary. I was the first legislative assistant that he ever had and I think that was the last senator to hire a legislative assistant. So he prided himself in turning money back in from the staff. He had a very small staff. I' ; d say we probably had, at the top, probably 15 in the Washington office. WARRINGTON: Did the staff resent that at all? Did they feel like they would like to have had more help or-- CAMPBELL: I don' ; t know about help. Of course, he was chairman of the Armed Services Committee and ranking Democrat on the appropriations and those were huge staffs and he had access to them so I would say the thing I recall the most, it was not funny at the time, was I hired--this is after I became administrative assistant--I hired a young lady from Tennessee who had worked for the governor of Tennessee who had then been elected to the Senate. He was a new senator and even though she' ; d been working in the office for a year, she' ; d never met Senator Russell and that just, kind of, tells you the lack of--and I was walking down the hall one day with him and the new senator from Tennessee was walking down the hall with this employee and the senator from Tennessee introduced the employee to Senator Russell who she had been working for, for a year. That made me feel bad. But he just didn' ; t have time, frankly, and so he with exception to the ones that I identified, he literally had no contact. Now, there was another lady in the office named Jane McMullen whose family' ; s from here in Athens and she saw him some because she' ; d been there a long time and Marge Warren was a lady that had been there a long, long time, so they did see him occasionally. But on an everyday basis in terms of a lot of contact the people that I identified are about the only ones that saw him. WARRINGTON: I just wondered if the staff, kind of, resented that at all. I mean, you were young coming in there and if they \understood because it was the way he worked. CAMPBELL: Well, not only that but to be able to work for Senator Russell, I mean, he was without question the most powerful and respected member of the Senate. So it was, kind of, considered to be a plum of a job. I mean, even these people that didn' ; t meet him, they were glad to have a job in his office. WARRINGTON: Well, you spoke to me about the difference in the fact that he was respected but not necessarily liked by the other senators. Not liked, but he was not loved. CAMPBELL: Yeah, and that does seem, kind of, strange but again he was a reserved person and he didn' ; t go out socially a lot. Now, I' ; m talking about the five years I was with him. In the ' ; 30s when he was a young man I don' ; t know. WARRINGTON: He did go out more then. CAMPBELL: I' ; m sure he did. But he was very much focused on his work and he had good friends in the Senate but they were senatorial friends. They were not warm, personal friends that he saw frequently. I think earlier he had been pretty close with Lyndon Johnson and his family because I know he went to eat with them frequently and became very fond of their daughters. But that was, kind of, atypical. In the years that I was there, I' ; d say Senator Stennis of Mississippi was a good friend. Senator Talmadge, of course. They got along wonderfully which was surprising given that Senator Talmadge' ; s father, Gene Talmadge, ran against him for the senate in ' ; 36. Senator Henry Jackson of Washington state was close to him. Senator Milton Young of North Dakota who was a republican, Senator Leverett Saltonstall of Massachusetts--he was a ranking Republican on the Armed Services Committee. So those were good friends. No question about the fact they were good friends, but they were not intimate friends is the way I would put it. And Senator Russell was--this is probably part of his personality that' ; s probably not well appreciated. He was a very, very tough politician. I mean, it' ; s true he was a quintessential southern gentleman and very courteous to people, but he could be tough as nails and if a senator crossed him on something, he didn' ; t forget it. I' ; ll give you one example. He was not a vindictive person, but he did not have a short memory and I remember one time Senator Edward Kennedy was chairman of a labor committee sub-committee and they were holding hearings on the manpower force in the United States and one of the things they addressed was the impact the draft had on the manpower situation. Well, of course, Senator Russell considered the draft to be within the exclusive providence of the Arms Services Committee so he got all upset about these hearings and so forth and he actually introduced a measure that made it clear that the labor committee didn' ; t have jurisdiction over that. And it actually went to a floor vote and I think there were maybe 22 or 23 senators that voted with Senator Kennedy. You know, Senator Russell' ; s position was upheld. But I saw several months later, I just happened to be in his office one day and he pulled out of his pocket the vote tally on that amendment and he was going through the congressional record seeing how people were currently voting on issues. And so he didn' ; t forget things. WARRINGTON: Apparently that' ; s really critical in the Senate. You' ; ve got to know how you think people will vote. CAMPBELL: Yes, yes. WARRINGTON: Of course, they said Johnson was the master of that but he may have learned it from Russell. CAMPBELL: Yes, and also critical to be as effective as Senator Russell was you couldn' ; t be someone who the other senators felt they could run over without consequence. So very few senators crossed him in the Senate on personal things that were of great interest to him, very, very few. They might vote in a way different but-- WARRINGTON: But they wouldn' ; t cross him. Tell us that story about the time the senator was going to read a lot of bad statistics about Georgia prisons. CAMPBELL: Yeah, this happened after he got real sick because I know he had emphysema and had had it for years but it got much, much worse and so toward the end he had a little scooter that had actually been developed by the space agency that he could scoot up and down the Senate. He really couldn' ; t walk without taking oxygen at that point. But at any rate a senator was giving a speech on prison reform and in one part of the speech he was criticizing Georgia' ; s prison system. This must have been in ' ; 70 or ' ; 69 and that wasn' ; t the focal part of the speech but it was in there and somebody called that to Senator Russell' ; s attention. I don' ; t know if it was another senator but at any rate he found out about it. So he got on his scooter and went over there and he was sitting on the Senate floor, because when he got to the Georgia part he was going to stand up and defend Georgia. Well, I guess the senator saw him there so he simply skipped over the Georgia part, so it never came up. But it was in the speech in the congressional record. WARRINGTON: Well, that' ; s one of the things that I' ; ve been impressed with in my work is how much he loved Georgia and the South but the nation, too. I think he certainly had the heart for all of those, but he didn' ; t want anybody to criticize Georgia. CAMPBELL: He was without any question the most patriotic person I' ; ve ever known. But you' ; re right, he was very defensive of Georgia. I think a lot of the reasons for his Civil Rights stances--and all this is my opinion. Not anything he ever told me or inferred, but it' ; s just my observation I think it had more to do with people outside the South telling the South what to do. He was without any question an authority on the Civil War. I mean, I think you would say that he could have been a professor. He knew every battle, every general, every junior general. WARRINGTON: I thought he knew General Lee and General Jackson personally. CAMPBELL: Yeah, I mean, he was incredible and he, even as late as the time I was with him, occasionally he would go to a battlefield in the Washington area. So I think he was very defensive about people criticizing Georgia, especially if they were not from Georgia or the South and my own theory is that accounted for a lot of his strong feelings. WARRINGTON: I would agree with that, too. Do you think if anyone from--do you recall any incidences where people from Georgia had criticized that, how he reacted? CAMPBELL: Well, of course, when the Civil Rights--and this was largely before I got there because in December of ' ; 65, of course, the ' ; 64 act had passed. The ' ; 65 voting rights act had passed. There was a ' ; 68 housing bill but Senator Russell was largely--he had given up the chairmanship of the Southern senators by then. WARRINGTON: Which must have been a relief I have to say. CAMPBELL: Yes, but he didn' ; t talk during the time I was there a lot about Civil Rights. I mean, it just wasn' ; t a conversation in the office. During that time the Southern schools were being desegregated and so there were a lot of school superintendents that would come up there and ask for his help with HEW and, you know, we would host meetings and Senator Russell occasionally would attend one. I remember him joking one time and telling a school superintendent he knew quite well, " ; Well, if they put you in jail I' ; ll send you flowers," ; or something like that. But there wasn' ; t a lot of discussion about Civil Rights around the office. WARRINGTON: Because he really was cooperative with that after it passed. CAMPBELL: Yeah, and in fact one of the things that I think is worth noting, in his first public speech in Georgia after the ' ; 64 Civil Rights Act signed by President Johnson, it was a speech Rome, Georgia at Berry College. The speech wasn' ; t about Civil Rights. It was about economic development in northwest Georgia, but he departed from his remarks and said and this was in an environment where there was a lot violence and unrest and some southern politicians were encouraging resistance to the implementation of the act and Senator Russell said that now that the act is on the books it' ; s or duty as good citizens to obey it as long as it' ; s there and to avoid all unrest and violence. And I know President Johnson said at the time that that was the most important statement made by any public official as they were trying to implement the act. And there were a number of newspaper editorials around Georgia that called on other politicians to quit the agitation. So he was a person of great principle and he stuck with those principals in good times and bad times and whether it was popular or unpopular. WARRINGTON: And that' ; s very unusual today. CAMPBELL: Yes, it is. It was unusual then. WARRINGTON: That' ; s true, you know, we like to think about that as something that' ; s just happened but it' ; s really not, is it? CAMPBELL: That' ; s exactly right. WARRINGTON: Well, there' ; re so many things. Do you ever remember him saying anything about Martin Luther King. King, of course, was one of his constituents. You know, he was a Georgian. CAMPBELL: I remember conversations--and it would usually be if somebody asked him. Senator Russell felt very strongly that the sit-ins were illegal and-- WARRINGTON: Yeah, I' ; ve taken that from what you said he believed in obeying the law. CAMPBELL: Yeah, he was in favor obeying the law whether you agreed with it or not and whether it was just or unjust. I remember he was very critical. The ambassador of the United Nations made a commencement speech in which he was praising the sit-ins and Senator Russell castigated him on the Senate floor. But he was very measured in what he said generally. It was very, very seldom he would lose his temper and even reading some of the Civil Rights debates that happened before I got there, he was much, much more temperate than most of the--than almost all the Southern senators. It' ; s interesting, when he took over the chairmanship of the Southern caucus, there were a lot of these powerful old-line segregationists that were still there and they were very powerful senators and there was a lot of fighting in the Southern caucus, but Senator Russell' ; s position was that if you don' ; t have something serious to say in the filibuster, let somebody else do the talking. And he had a lot of fights within the caucus, but the tone of the debate changed. And people used to read, for example, recipes, old Southern recipes or something, you know, just totally irrelevant and the " ; N" ; word was used frequently in Senate debates and after he took over you never heard that. WARRINGTON: And he wouldn' ; t let them read recipes and things. CAMPBELL: That' ; s right, that' ; s right. Some of them still did because they did what they wanted to. WARRINGTON: He recommended that they didn' ; t do that. CAMPBELL: But in specific to answer your question, I don' ; t remember him saying anything particularly about Martin Luther King. I have a vague recollection that somebody referred to King as a rabble-rouser and that Senator Russell agreed with it or something like that and it was in the context of these sit-ins that he thought were illegal. But beyond that, I don' ; t remember any conversation about that. WARRINGTON: Would you say that during the time you were with him that he did, sort of, withdraw from the Civil Rights debate if there was any which there was still some going on. CAMPBELL: I think the big fights were over by the time I got there. WARRINGTON: Yeah, they were and so he saw that. CAMPBELL: Yeah, I mean, I don' ; t think he changed his views, but I don' ; t think the occasion--I know somebody said one time, " ; Well, a lot of these Southern senators change their positions." ; They cited Strom Thurman and others, but Senator Russell never did. Of course, he died pretty early in the period when the transformation was taking place. But also a lot of Southern senators demagogued the race question when segregation was in vogue and then they went over to the extreme when integration became in vogue and that was not Senator Russell. I mean, he was as far from a demagogue as you could get. So it was important to him. He did not take positions based on whether they were popular or unpopular, at least not in the period I was there or really in the immediate prior-- WARRINGTON: I don' ; t think he ever did. CAMPBELL: And so when he took a position for a long period of time, it would have been very difficult for him to just suddenly, " ; Okay, well, now if people feel differently I' ; m going to just do an about face and go the other way," ; because it wasn' ; t a political issue with him. Of course, he was very critical of Lyndon Johnson on that very issue. WARRINGTON: Yeah, that he changed. You' ; ve spoken about all the things that he did. Maybe could you name some of those things besides Civil Rights like the armed services, like the agriculture. CAMPBELL: Yeah, I think one of the unfortunate things about Senator Russell' ; s career is that because the Civil Rights thing has gotten so much attention and properly so. It was an important part and it should not be ignored, but it was only one part of his career. I mean, when you think back over his career just in the Senate. You know, forget about being governor during the Depression and speaker of the Georgia House of Representatives before he was 30 years old, forget about all that. When he went to the senate in 1932 he was an avid New Dealer. WARRINGTON: Which was a liberal position in that day. CAMPBELL: He supported almost all of FDR' ; s New Deal program. In fact he gave a seconding speech for FDR at the ' ; 32 convention, at Roosevelt' ; s first nomination and it wasn' ; t until the court packing plan where Roosevelt tried to increase the size of the Supreme Court to overcome a couple of the New Deal laws that were declared unconstitutional that Senator Russell started having differences with Roosevelt. WARRINGTON: And that' ; s really part of his integrity because that was a constitutional thing with him. You don' ; t tamper with the Constitution. It was done for a reason and written that way. CAMPBELL: But up until then, and that was after almost all the New Deal legislation had passed and then, of course, his role in agriculture is often forgotten. I mean, for probably the first ten years of his career, he was the most important person in the Senate on agriculture policy and he didn' ; t even serve on the agriculture committee. WARRINGTON: Explain a little bit why that was. CAMPBELL: He was chairman of the Agriculture Appropriation Sub-Committee. When he got to the Senate, through kind of a fluke--Huey Long was a maverick in the Senate at that time harassing the leadership and disrupting things on the Senate floor and refusing to serve on committees because they wouldn' ; t let him on the committee he wanted on. So when Senator Russell got there, the majority leader asked him what committee he wanted to be on or committees and he said, " ; I want to be on the Appropriations Committee." ; And the majority leader said, " ; Well, that' ; s out of the question, Senator. I mean, we' ; ve got senators that have been here ten years trying to get on the Appropriations Committee so what' ; s your second choice?" ; WARRINGTON: He did say that Senator Harris had been on the Appropriations Committee. CAMPBELL: Senator Harris, his predecessor, had died was on Appropriations. WARRINGTON: He, kind of, had that little reason. CAMPBELL: So Senator Russell said, " ; Well, if I can' ; t be on the Appropriations, I' ; m not interested in being on a committee at all. That was probably a bluff on his part but in the context in the Huey Long thing, " ; Oh, no, we' ; re going to have a second one." ; The majority leader worked it out, so he got on the Appropriations Committee from day one which was almost unheard of. And then through another fluke, the person who should have been chairman of the Agriculture Appropriation Sub-Committee under seniority which is the way it was done, the chairman of the committee didn' ; t like, hated it. So he named Senator Russell as chairman of the Agriculture Appropriations Sub-Committee right off the bat which was just absolutely unprecedented. So for about ten years, which was all through the New Deal, Senator Russell was the predominant person on agriculture policy. And then he also lifelong maintained an interest in it even after that, but certainly the military area and national defense was a prime area. He was on the predecessor to the Arms Services Committee, the Naval Affairs Committee, and then later a chairman of Armed Services and that' ; s really probably where he made his mark more than any other one single area. But there were a lot of areas, the school lunch program. He was the father of it. WARRINGTON: That was two things that he was really interested in, education and agriculture because it became a way to use farm surplus. CAMPBELL: That' ; s right. He was the author of what was the forerunner to the food stamp program, which most people don' ; t realize. Of course, he was a leader in extending electricity to rural areas. He worked closely with Roosevelt on that. He was very active in the space program. He was one of the first members of the Senate Space Committee and he was one of the first members of the joint committee on atomic energy. WARRINGTON: Do you think he saw that as part of national defense? CAMPBELL: I think, yes he did, I think both of those in a way. But he gave a number of speeches on saying that the country in the long run was going to have to use atomic energy to provide its electricity needs and, of course, that' ; s turned out now that' ; s a very current debate that' ; s going on. Atomic energy had a bad name for a number of years but now people are coming back. I know Senator Nunn gave a speech recently very similar to that saying that we just had to have a larger component of nuclear energy. So he did a lot of things and then on top of all that I think his role in the Senate was probably almost unique. He could have been majority leader on any number of occasions and instead he didn' ; t want to feel like he was committed to supporting any president' ; s program and that the majority leader was expected to support it if it was in your party, if it was in the White House and he didn' ; t want. So for example, he almost single handedly made Lyndon Johnson majority leader when they were trying to get him to take it and which is what got Lyndon Johnson started. But he, kind of, became a lot of the senators in their eulogies when he died referred to him as a senator' ; s senator or a mentor and I think that is probably as important as any single thing he did and that' ; s probably why the Senate office building was named The Russell Senate Office Building to be honest with you, because he took a great interest in senators of both parties. I know one election day I was in Winder with him and he would get calls from these new senators, some of them Republicans. They' ; d obviously been told by people that served in the Senate, you know, " ; The first thing you need to do is you need to get in touch with Senator Russell." ; And the story is told that, in fact, Senator Edward Kennedy told it that when he was elected to the Senate he went to his brother, President Kennedy, and said, you know, " ; What is the most important thing for me to do to get off to a good start as a senator?" ; He said, " ; Go talk to Senator Russell." ; And Senator Russell spent a lot of time with these junior senators. He would make himself freely available which was very unusual and it didn' ; t matter whether you were a Southerner or a Westerner or North-Eastern or Republican for that matter. WARRINGTON: I' ; ve read it somewhere that he never tried to pull rank on any senator no matter how junior they were. He treated them as an equal, as a peer. Once you were in the Senate, you were a peer. CAMPBELL: Yeah, that' ; s exactly right. In fact, some of the eulogies that were given on the Senate floor make that point where senators would say that, you know, " ; He never pressured me." ; And some of the senators said they would go talk to him about things where he was on the other side, you know, Senator Russell was going to vote the other way but they would talk to him about what was in the best interest in their state and so forth. WARRINGTON: And I read he would say, " ; This is the way I think my constituents would look at that, but yours are going to be different." ; And that was an important thing. Tell us about Senator Edward Brooke and what you saw in his relationship with Russell. CAMPBELL: Well, he was the only African-American member of the Senate during Senator Russell' ; s tenure. WARRINGTON: And he was from Massachusetts. CAMPBELL: Right, he was a Republican from Massachusetts. He had been attorney general of Massachusetts and they hit off very well. I was reading just the other day Senator Brooke' ; s oral history here at the Russell Library and he said that Senator Russell came up and congratulated him. Now, Senator Brooke probably knew something about Senator Russell because Senator Saltonstall who I referred to earlier held that Senate seat before Senator Brooke. And he, of course, knew Senator Russell very well because he was a ranking Republican on the Armed Services Committee, so that probably may have paved the way, but they had a great relationship and if you look at Senator Brooke' ; s eulogy when Senator Russell died, it' ; s one of the best. The only thing I remember personally was that one day I went over to the Senate to get Senator Russell to go to a constituent meeting and he and Senator Brooke were on the Senate floor talking to each other, just the two of them and obviously it wasn' ; t the first conversation they' ; d had. So from all appearances they had a very good relationship. And this is another thing about Senator Russell that' ; s not generally know, a lot of people assume that he was anti-black or anti-African American which is just not true. He felt like the Civil Rights laws were bad policy and in the long run would not help the country or either race and history has judged him wrong on that. But that was a sincere belief he held but in terms of dealing with individual African-Americans, he dealt with them just like anybody else. You know, Senator Brooke is an example. I' ; ll give you another example. I don' ; t want to use the name because this person' ; s still living but a very prominent Civil Rights leader had a family problem. This was before I got there but it was well-known and talked about in the office. WARRINGTON: Was this person from Georgia? CAMPBELL: Yes. And this person had a family problem and somebody in that family was not going to be able to stay in this country. It was an immigration type issue and somebody told them, " ; Well, Senator Russell is the only person that' ; s got the kind of power that can get this straightened out," ; and it was straightened out. And I' ; ll give you another example now that I think about it. The waitresses in the Senate dining room, most of them were African-American, not all of them. He was probably their favorite. In fact, I remember they sent flowers when he was in the hospital. So he was not a simple person to understand. You know, people tend to stereotype people and say, " ; Well, you' ; re this, so therefore you must be this," ; but it' ; s much more complicated than that. WARRINGTON: I think probably his position was rather difficult for him, you know, to say these races are not equal but we' ; re going to keep them separate but equal. CAMPBELL: Right, right, well, one of the interesting oral histories that I' ; ve read here was a woman by the name of Tina Panetta. She was a waitress in the Senate dining room. She was from Italy. She was born in Italy and she came to this country and her duty station was the table Senator Russell ate breakfast every day. And she praised him to high heaven about how kind he was, advice that he gave her with respect to her sons, one of whom was at Georgetown undergraduate and, you know, reading things like that gives you a glimpse of why these stereotypes are wrong. He' ; s just a different kind of person than these stereotypes would depict. WARRINGTON: That' ; s right. When we' ; ve talked about respect versus affection, I think he wasn' ; t trying to make people love him. He was trying to do something that he considered could be respected and I think some of that has, kind of, worked in the opposite direction. There' ; re so many things I want to ask you. If you could speak a little bit more about the--if we want to talk about the Civil Rights and the segregation that you' ; ve told me about, which has helped me put it in some perspective was that what was the law when he was born and for so long. CAMPBELL: Well, he was born in 1897 and in 1898 the United States Supreme Court decided the case of Plessy V. Ferguson which basically said that segregation was constitutionally legal so long as it was separate but equal. And that was the law of the land until the Supreme Court decision in 1954 in Brown v. Board of Education where they said that segregation is inherently unconstitutional, illegal because it' ; s not equal. It' ; s inherently unequal. Well, by then Senator Russell is almost 60 years old. I mean, you know, he' ; d lived most of his life, 5/6th of his life. WARRINGTON: And the thing I' ; ve noticed about that is yes, it wasn' ; t equal but everybody in the South was poor and there was a lot of-- CAMPBELL: And he had grown up talking to people that fought in the Civil War. The reason I know this is that one of the things when I would come with him to Winder, he was, kind of, a habit of routine and habit and in the afternoons we' ; d drive around either Barrow County or some of the surrounding counties and I remember him telling me one time we passed a general store and he said when he was a boy that he would be there and talk to people who actually fought in the Civil War. These are not people that are, you know, and I think--and of course, his family was greatly affected because when Sherman came through Georgia, his grandfather was a very prominent, rising, prospering businessman in Marietta and they were completely burned out and he was a hired hand for the rest of his life. So I think any fair-minded person would say he was a segregationist and if Senator Russell were here today I think he would say that. So there' ; s no point in pretending otherwise. But I don' ; t think that meant he was anti-black. I think he had a view as to what the best policy was and that in the long run if things were done gradually with the South onboard, that the adjustment would be better than it being forced on them. WARRINGTON: And there' ; s really no way probably to judge that, but he thought that he had slowed it down enough because even the things I' ; ve read have said that even the people who were pro-civil rights felt that the fight the South made, made that law enforceable where as if it had just been-- CAMPBELL: I think the weakness in that, of course, to look at both sides, the weakness in that is that there was really no effort to make it separate but equal. The educational system without any question in the South, I know, because I grew up in a rural Georgia county and the black school didn' ; t have anything like that facilities and the quality of the teachers and the school books. So that was the big weakness. WARRINGTON: The other side of that for me that I' ; ve seen is that Martin Luther King was one of my heroes. I think he is one of the greatest Americans, but until we had a black person who could lead the black people that way, it wasn' ; t going to happen because white people didn' ; t have the motivation nor did they really have the trust of the black people. And so when we got that great leader, see, it happened. CAMPBELL: Yeah, somebody asked me one time, I can' ; t remember when this was, what did I think would have changed Senator Russell' ; s view from being a segregationist and I said, " ; Well, you know, I think--we' ; re all products of our experience," ; and the only blacks he came in contact with were maids, farm hands--he never really came in contact with blacks that were the intellectual equal and maybe that' ; s because they were deprived of opportunity. That may very well be but the fact is--and so I think back to one of my own experiences. The schools were just beginning to be segregated but when I came to the University of Georgia and was on the debate team, there were blacks on other debate teams around the country and they would not infrequently defeat us fair and square. Well, you have a few of those kind of experiences and it' ; s more difficult to say, you know, that blacks are inferior. And after I got in the law practice, there was a well-known black lawyer in Atlanta, one of the best trial lawyers, you know, he beats everybody. So it' ; s very difficult if you have those kind of experiences, but Senator Russell didn' ; t have those kind of experiences and I think if he' ; d have been exposed to people like, say, President Obama or even Andrew Young or Martin Luther King on any kind of sustained basis, that would have been more likely, in my view, to change his opinion because he wasn' ; t going to change it for political reasons. In 1952 it was generally regarded that he had a legitimate shot at being president and he was told that, " ; Look, if you don' ; t change your position on Civil Rights and on certain labor issues, you' ; re not going to--." ; And he didn' ; t. So he wasn' ; t going to change for political reasons. If he had been he would have done it at that time. WARRINGTON: Maybe you could speak to that a little bit in the fact that he did have a perception of himself as a leader. I think you speak about that in your talk to the Russell Foundation that his leadership, you know, that he had ideas and he had beliefs and so you don' ; t change those just because--I mean, he spoke to me about that a little bit when I was very young, how hard it is for a senator to balance doing what his constituents wants and what he knows because of different things might be a better way. CAMPBELL: Well, he said at one point that, " ; If I reach the point where my views are so divergent from the people of Georgia' ; s that I can' ; t faithfully reflect their views then I' ; ll just resign and not serve. Now, you know, that' ; s, kind of, self-serving in a way because his views were pretty consistent with the views of the majority of Georgians. WARRINGTON: I do think that was important to him though. CAMPBELL: Yeah, that was important, but I think Senator Russell' ; s leadership was more by example than anything else. I mean, if you look at these oral histories these senators have done that are here in the Russell Library, almost all of them say that it was by example. It was exampley set. WARRINGTON: He didn' ; t preach one thing and do another. CAMPBELL: He wasn' ; t one of these glad hander' ; s. He wasn' ; t somebody that bragged about that he did. He was very understated, very reserved, very modest and I think that was one of the secrets to his success and one of the things I found interesting when was up there. They published something that' ; s called the congressional directory and it lists all senators and their principle staff and the senators write up what they' ; ve done. Some of them have been governors of the state. Some of them have been attorney generals. WARRINGTON: Like a senior yearbook. CAMPBELL: Yeah, you know, and some of them just go on for several pages. Well, here Richard Russell throughout his entire term in the Senate said Richard B. Russell, Democrat of Winder Georgia and that was it. Nothing else and here he had accomplished more than anybody, so that, kind of, illustrates his modesty. WARRINGTON: I' ; ve been impressed with that myself as I' ; ve studied the continuity of that. I think he genuinely didn' ; t care whether he was remembered or not in that way, you know, recognized maybe is the word I want. But he did, I think, in the later years, he wanted to be known as the father of that school lunch program. CAMPBELL: Yes, he said in an interview that WSB did toward the end of his career that he was proudest of that of any other single thing that he did. WARRINGTON: That, I think is consistent. If he had a blind spot or a weakness what would you think it was? I mean, he did obviously, we all do. CAMPBELL: Well, I' ; ve thought about that before and you' ; d be tempted to say the inability to change, certainly on the Civil Rights issue you could say that, but on the other hand he was very adaptable about a lot of things. For example, some of the Lyndon Johnson tapes that have been released now--tape recorded conversations President Johnson had in the White House. One of them is with Senator Russell about whether to recognize Red China and this was probably before ' ; 68 because that' ; s when Johnson went out and Senator Russell said, " ; Well, of course, we' ; re going to recognize Red China. There' ; s no question about that," ; but that would have been poison at that time, so that just shows you even though he was about as much of an anti-communist as anybody, that he was very adaptable on most things. So I don' ; t know that I would cite that as a weakness. I would say--and I read an oral history that President Nixon gave that' ; s here at the Russell Library and I hadn' ; t thought about this until then but if I was pressed to cite one thing I' ; d probably agree with President Nixon that when you got into the television age and the media age, I said earlier Senator Russell was the last senator to hire a press secretary. He very seldom gave interviews to the news media. He very seldom went on the talk shows even though they were trying to get him on all the time because again, he was reserved, modest, not a promoter and Nixon cited that. If I had to cite one weakness I' ; d say that probably was a weakness and I would probably agree with that, that' ; d be the closest thing to a weakness that I can think of. WARRINGTON: We can go from that and you might tell us that story you told me about how he loved sports and he went down to the baseball game in Florida. CAMPBELL: Yeah, this was ' ; 67 because he autographed a picture that was made at a banquet while we were down there but in spring he would go to Florida to MacDill Air force Base in Tampa ostensibly to be briefed on various military matters but part of it and a big part of it, probably the biggest part was to go to exhibition baseball games. He was a huge baseball fan. And we were at a Braves expedition game. They trained at that time at Bradenton, Florida nearby and we were there and so he looked up and he saw in the press box--I can' ; t remember which one it was, it was one of the principle sports writers for the Atlanta newspaper. I don' ; t know if it was Furman Bisher or Jesse Outlar or who it was. He said, " ; I see so-and-so up there." ; Said, " ; Tell him if he' ; s interested in my assessment of the Braves this year to come down and I' ; ll talk to him." ; So I went up there and told him, so he came down, so the next day in the paper it said Senator Russell is predicting this and that about the Braves. Well, in Washington the reporters had been trying to get an interview with about something having to do with the Vietnam War and he wouldn' ; t grant them the interview and they were just absolutely livid that he' ; d talk to some damn sports writer in Florida but he can' ; t talk to us. But he very-- WARRINGTON: Don' ; t you think he recognized the humor in that situation? CAMPBELL: Oh, yeah, and he had a good relationship with certain media people, Margaret Shannon with the Atlanta newspaper. He had a wonderful relationship with her. There was a reporter named Wayne Kelly. He got along well with Roger Mudd but he referred to Drew Pearson on the Senate floor one time as a skunk and there was a reporter, a columnist in Washington called Joseph Alsop. He referred to him as Al Slop on the floor one time, so but he just didn' ; t make himself available. He would occasionally go on " ; Meet The Press." ; I remember one time he was on " ; Meet The Press," ; and this was during the Johnson administration and they were asking him about the Vietnam War and he said, " ; Well, my guess is if you had a truly democratic election through both North and South Vietnam with no coercion that Ho Chi Minh would win." ; Well, the White House just went absolutely bananas and Johnson was having a press conference the next day and a reporter asked him, he said, " ; I didn' ; t know Senator Russell was an expert on Vietnamese politics," ; or something like that. But he very seldom went on those shows. WARRINGTON: That actually proved to be true didn' ; t it? CAMPBELL: I think it probably was true. But he went on " ; Face The Nation" ; occasionally but not very often. Not very often. WARRINGTON: Well, there' ; s so many things we could talk about. What did you see as his view towards women? Was he conservative about that or-- CAMPBELL: Well, my impression was and this is based as much on reading, he had very much an old Southern view of women which is really, kind of, an exalted position to be honest with you. Of course, his mother was without any question the most important woman in his life. She was the first lady of Georgia when he was governor because he was not married and, of course, he never got married. In terms of senators I think Senator Margaret Chase Smith of Maine who was a Republican, knew him well because she was on both the Armed Services and Appropriations Committee for almost 15 years. WARRINGTON: Was she the only woman senator at that time? CAMPBELL: No, I think there was one other one as I recall. But if you read her eulogy it' ; s one of the best I' ; ve ever read anywhere and so he got along, you know, great with the women senators, the few there were but I didn' ; t ever hear him--I don' ; t recall him saying, I recall him saying repeatedly that the finest woman he ever met was his mother. And of course, he almost got married and his advice to me to stay in law school and get married, I think, is probably an illustration that he thinks that was a mistake not to get married. WARRINGTON: I think at the end of his life he definitely said that but I think he was a very traditional person and the way he was raised to think about blacks and whites, he was also raised to think about men and women, but he had to make a lot of changes in that way, too. I' ; d like to talk a little bit about the Russell Foundation. You were a chairman of the foundation for 17 years? CAMPBELL: That' ; s correct. WARRINGTON: And then you said you found that work very satisfying. Could you maybe tell us a little bit about the history of the foundation, why it came into being and then what you found satisfying about that work. CAMPBELL: Okay, well, Judge William Norton from Gainesville, Georgia who was a long-time friend of Senator Russell, his wife Adelaide had worked in Senator Russell' ; s 1952 presidential campaign and they' ; d known the family for a long time. I first approached Senator Russell about the possibility of setting up an independent foundation that would house his papers in some kind of suitable facility. This was probably in ' ; 69. The University of Georgia Dr. Aderhold, the president of the university had previously talked to Senator Russell about giving his papers to the University of Georgia and Senator Russell, of course, graduated from the law school here at Georgia and loved the university and I think that was the direction he was going in, but he had a concern that his papers would, kind of, get buried in a huge library. He wanted them to be available for researchers. It was his primary interest. And so it, kind of, dovetailed nicely. He didn' ; t act on Dr. Aderhold' ; s respect in any formal way. He had a nice meeting with him but when the Judge Norton broached the idea of an independent foundation that was attractive to him. So Judge Norton had been out and visited, I think, the Harry Truman, or maybe a couple of senatorial as well as presidential libraries and so the idea formed to setup this foundation that would be responsible for the management of the papers and so forth, enter into an agreement probably with University of Georgia Library. And as a part of that one of the important things that I guess Senator Russell, I don' ; t remember if he was the one that insisted on this or it was after Senator Talmadge was named as the first chairman, but they wanted a library. Either a separate library or a library with a separate entrance, again addressing Senator Russell' ; s concern that it not be buried in part of the big library. So that resulted in this facility that we' ; re in today and a board of trustees was appointed. Senator Russell selected most of them himself. Senator Talmadge, I think, selected a few. It was agreed Senator Talmadge would be the first chairman, which he was, and Senator Talmadge primarily was responsible for raising almost all the money that was raised. I think there was $3 or $4 million was raised and then the Russell estate would convey the papers to the foundation, who would enter into an agreement with the university and that was done. And in addition to that, the foundation endowed a chair in American history here in Georgia which is still here and gave some scholarships and other things. That' ; s, kind of, what got the foundation started. WARRINGTON: Now, you know, Charles, the history of how that chair was endowed, where the first money came from that? CAMPBELL: Senator Talmadge raised that money. WARRINGTON: We didn' ; t speak about this before, but that Russell would always give back the money in his campaigns if he didn' ; t need it. And that' ; s just unheard of but for the Democratic nomination a lot of that money came in and he didn' ; t know who had sent it and he had just kept it in a bank account. CAMPBELL: No, I think what you' ; re talking about is, there is a chair in the political science department here that' ; s held by a Dr. Charles Bullock. I think this is what you' ; re talking about. That came out of the estate, the money came out of the estate and so my guess is that' ; s that money. WARRINGTON: Yes, but is that the Richard B. Russell-- CAMPBELL: It' ; s the Richard B. Russell either chair or professorship in the political science department. The political science departments been renamed since then. It' ; s The School of International Affairs and Study or something. But this one, the history department was something that was done exclusively, the chair, and that was again, they had a fund raising committee. I don' ; t want to say nobody did anything but Senator Talmadge, for example, got the Woodruff Foundation to give, I think it was $750,000 and so most of the money was raised from foundations. WARRINGTON: Because we hadn' ; t touched on that I thought it was a good idea to bring that in because education was also a big thing with Russell, always, and that money that he couldn' ; t say who it belonged to, he just then made it go into education. CAMPBELL: That' ; s right and Senator Talmadge served as first chairperson for about four years and then Congressman Phil Landrum who was the congressman from Senator Russell' ; s home district and had known him very well, served as chairman for about four years. And then Jasper Dorsey who had been head of Southern Bell in Georgia that I referred to earlier in connection with the Russell funeral. He became chairman in 1978 and died in 1990 and I became chairman in 1990 and served until 2007. And the way that happened--in fact, I was not originally on the board of trustees at all, but Jasper Dorsey and I became very close. His son, Tucker Dorsey, and I became very good friends in Blue Key, really. And at the very same time I was driving to Washington to join Senator Russell' ; s staff in December of 1965, Tucker was driving to have Christmas with his family. At that time Jasper was head of a government relations of ATT in Washington and Tucker was killed in an automobile accident in North Carolina. So Jasper and I became very close, almost like a surrogate father/son relationship when I went to Washington. And so he became, kind of, my benefactor, if you will. So he was the one that was responsible for me joining the Russell Board of Trustees in, I think it was ' ; 80, and then he was chairman when I was named secretary, so he was really largely responsible for my becoming chair of the Russell Foundation. WARRINGTON: So what did you find so satisfying about that? CAMPBELL: Well, of course, I thought it was important that Senator Russell' ; s legacy be preserved and better understood and that was a large part of what the foundation did, but beyond that we did a number of things. We endowed scholarships. The foundation now gives three debate scholarships at Georgia each year and incidentally the Georgia debate team is one of the top five in the country now, much different than when I debated here. We give three teaching awards for outstanding young faculty members for high performance in the classroom. Senator Russell though teaching was very important. WARRINGTON: And blacks received these awards? CAMPBELL: Absolutely. The awarded recipients are selected by a committee of faculty members and one Russell Foundation Member. Then we do a-- WARRINGTON: Maybe this not exactly a fair question but would you say that the foundation is in anyway prejudiced against blacks or is that-- CAMPBELL: No, not at all. No. WARRINGTON: I would say it' ; s definitely an equal. CAMPBELL: In fact, one of the longest serving trustees of the Russell Foundation, Jesse Hill, who was one of the ones named by Senator Russell originally, he' ; s emeritus now. He' ; s probably 85 years old but he served through the whole time, so no, the University of Georgia has been a wonderful partner for the Russell Foundation because we don' ; t have to have any staff. The university handles all the administrative things with these programs but, for example, in addition to the ones I' ; ve already named we did a biennial program on national security where you have people like Robert McNamara, Bob Gates the current secretary defense. WARRINGTON: Russell Symposium. That' ; s been an excellent-- CAMPBELL: When Dean Rusk came on the faculty here in the law school he joined the Russell Board as a trustee and he inaugurated a series of lectures on constitutional law that the foundation underwrote. So we just do a lot of different things, very worthwhile activities that are justification in and of themselves but they also preserve Richard Russell' ; s legacy and his name. WARRINGTON: That' ; s why I brought that up. I wanted to just, kind of, make that clear that the foundation has not been anything about a legacy of racism because that wasn' ; t an overall thing. CAMPBELL: In fact, the second professor that held the chair, he' ; s retired now, he was an authority on Fredrick Douglas. He' ; d written three or four books, I believe, on Fredrick Douglas. A professor named Gilbert Fite, who wrote the definitive biography of Senator Russell, was the first one. Then there was McFeely was the Fredrick Douglas expert and then Ed Larson, who won a Pulitzer Prize for his book on the Scopes Trial, was the third. So they' ; d been distinguished holders of that chair. So I think-- WARRINGTON: I think in that way we can say that Richard Russell changed in a certain light. CAMPBELL: In other words, we don' ; t run these programs. We provide the money. The university runs them like they would run any other program. WARRINGTON: And I personally do feel that he would approve of that 100 percent. I have never felt that any of that would be something that he would-- CAMPBELL: I don' ; t think Senator Russell probably could have envisioned that the Russell Foundation would get into as many of the activities we have because, again, his primary interest, he was really a historian and his interest was in being sure that his papers were preserved here. But thanks to Senator Talmadge' ; s effort to raise the money and the investment of that money over time. At one time we had about $7 or $8 million. Now, we have just given $3 million to a new special collections library building that' ; s going to house the Russell Library and the other two special collections libraries here. And the foundation put a statue of Senator Russell in the Russell Senate Office Building in Washington and we have bought books--bought your book on Senator Russell' ; s father, your biography, and circulated those to public schools and private schools in Georgia. And I remember when Zell Miller was governor the Fite biography came out and Governor Miller made state funds available and we supplemented them with Russell Foundation funds, so we' ; ve done those kind of things as well. So it was a wonderful experience for me because I thought it was worthwhile and I thought that I was doing something that Senator Russell would appreciate. WARRINGTON: Did you meet any of the students or teachers that got their awards? CAMPBELL: Oh, yeah, absolutely because for 15 years I presented the awards each year at what' ; s called the Faculty Recognition Banquet in the spring. And so of course I participated on the selection committee, so I guess is if you picked one thing other than preserving his papers and making them available to researchers that Senator Russell would most be impressed by it would be those teaching awards. WARRINGTON: I would agree, too. Do you remember about the foot solider project? You told me about that. CAMPBELL: That' ; s a project that a professor in the social studies program here, I probably got the name of it wrong, but Maurice Daniels started and Sheryl Vogt, the head of the Russell Library collaborated or is collaborating on and it' ; s based on the idea of interviewing foot soldiers in the Civil Rights project and preserving their recollections. There' ; s a lot that' ; s been done on the Civil Rights leaders, but not very much on ordinary, common people. And I know, for example, they did one on Horace Ward a video interview which is great. I, of course, know Judge Ward and handled cases before him. He was a federal district court judge in Atlanta, still is, and I thought that was great. And that project is ongoing. It' ; s not finished. WARRINGTON: Yeah, I think that' ; s an outstanding project and that it' ; s come through this library. I think it' ; s worth noting. I was looking through your talk you made when you resigned from the--not resigned, but stepped down from the chairman-- CAMPBELL: Decided 17 years was enough. WARRINGTON: And I want to point out that that is available at the Richard B. Russell Library if people wanted to read that. I don' ; t think you would get a better summary of Senator Russell' ; s career, but I would like for this tape to explain why you think that he left a great legacy in national security because today we' ; re so concerned about national security. CAMPBELL: Well, as I said in those remarks, I, kind of, divide Senator Russell' ; s legacy into two parts ; what he did and who he was. WARRINGTON: You might tell us where that comes from. CAMPBELL: Yeah, the way I got that idea, that didn' ; t originate with me, but I guess it was close to--well, it was 1974 I believe. WARRINGTON: I believe it was ' ; 74. Might have been ' ; 75. CAMPBELL: The postal service did a Richard Russell memorial stamp and the tagline on the first day cover was not just what he did but what he was and that' ; s what, kind of, got me to thinking about that his legacy is what he did, certainly national security as I said earlier was one of the predominant areas, but agriculture, the space program, the atomic energy program, a lot of other things and then his personal traits and characteristics of integrity, modesty, work ethic, devotion to the public interest. WARRINGTON: I want to come back to work ethic at some point. CAMPBELL: Family, you know, all those were important attributes of his and that' ; s, kind of, combined together that was the way I looked at his legacy. WARRINGTON: But specifically in national security you had some good remarks about that. CAMPBELL: Well, in national security that really dominated his career because from the time he got on the old Naval Affairs Committee which would have been, I guess, in the late ' ; 30s. For example, in World War II, he led the only congressional delegation that toured all the major theaters. It was a six week around the world, basically, tour and they went into literally all the European, Pacific--all the war theaters. And he came back and made an exhaustive report to the Senate. That' ; s, kind of, what kicked him off as an increasingly recognized expert in national security. And then of course he became chairman of the Armed Services Committee and was for 15 years during the height of the Cold War when President Truman dismissed General McArthur from his commanding career for basically insubordination, a joint committee of the Armed Services and Foreign Relations Committee was organized to have a congressional inquiry and Senator Russell was elected to chair that joint committee and received high praise for the evenhanded way that he did that. WARRINGTON: For people who listen to this now might not know, but McArthur was enormously popular. I mean, he was just a hero to everybody and to have removed that--it was very delicate thing. CAMPBELL: When he came back from Korea he had a huge rally in San Francisco where there were, I think, over 100,000 people and then he stopped--he just had a barn storming tour and the thought was he' ; s going to be a presidential candidate. He addressed a joint session of Congress when he got to Washington, but Senator Russell, kind of, diffused it over time. He gave General McArthur all the time he wanted, you know, very respectful, kept the political part of it out. Of course, the Republicans were wanting to attack Truman, you know, and Senator Russell had had his differences with Truman, but he' ; s generally credited with saving Truman' ; s presidency as a result of that. But finally after about 40 days of hearings, it kind of, died down and the joint chiefs of staff that testified disagreed with McArthur on most of the critical issues and so he, kind of, receded into the background. WARRINGTON: It may be the reason that Eisenhower-- CAMPBELL: Yes, probably had a lot to do with that, exactly. But armed services from then on was, kind of, his signature expertise, if you will, and one of the reasons for that was they changed the rules of the Senate. This couldn' ; t happen now because they divided the committees up into A committees, B committees and C committees and you can only be on one A committee. Senator Russell was on three A committees and at the same time he chaired Armed Services. He was chairman of the Defense Appropriation sub-committee. So he chaired both the authorization of military funds and the appropriation of military funds across the whole government. So that was unprecedented power in the hands of one person and on top of that, he was head of the CIA oversight committee. So that couldn' ; t happen now. They don' ; t let one senator have that kind of power. WARRINGTON: Do you think he abused that power in any way. My own personal feeling is that it' ; s probably not a good idea to have that much power in one person' ; s hands. Like, the CIA sub-committee is a good example. Back then Senator Russell basically solely provided oversight of the CIA because they were so concerned there' ; d be leaks that Senator Russell would meet with the director of the CIA and that was about all the briefing that took place. Occasionally Senator Saltonstall would participate and there were not leaks. Now, they have three or four committees that are responsible and you have all kind of problems with leaks. So there' ; s probably no perfect system. WARRINGTON: I hope some scholar will really study that. There' ; s a good book in that, I think. CAMPBELL: Yeah, there' ; s been several books written actually about that, about the organization of the CIA and its history. WARRINGTON: Does he get press that? I' ; m not familiar with those. CAMPBELL: Yes, absolutely. In fact, one of the programs the Russell Foundation had was a program on the CIA where the authors of several of these books participated. WARRINGTON: The other part of his legacy that I think is maybe not as well known is that the area he promoted so much research--scientific and agricultural, the nuclear, could you speak about that? CAMPBELL: Yeah, and this is one of the things that Senator Edward Brook that we were talking about earlier mentioned in his eulogy of Senator Russell and in his oral history here at the Russell Library. Senator Russell was a big believer in scientific research, medical research, educational research. Of course, he didn' ; t miss any opportunity to get the funds for Georgia. That was also very important to him and I' ; ll tell you a funny story. The Richard B. Russell research laboratory that' ; s here at the university still, they were considering it in the Appropriations Committee. WARRINGTON: That was agriculture? CAMPBELL: Yeah, it was an agriculture sub-committee and a friend of Senator Russell, kind of, said tongue and cheek he was going to vote against the appropriation because he knew from past experience if the funds were appropriated Senator Russell would try to put the facility at the University of Georgia and that he understood that Athens wasn' ; t very close to the Atlantic Ocean but that Senator Russell was putting so much money in here that he was afraid it was going to break off and fall into the Atlantic Ocean and Senator Russell generally had a pretty good sense of humor but he sad rather dryly and directly, " ; If the funds are appropriated you' ; re damn right I' ; m going to try to get them for Georgia," ; and he did. And most people don' ; t realize the role he had in establishing the Communicable Disease Center in Atlanta. He was a major mover of that and The Woodruff Foundation contributed property but Senator Russell got it located in Atlanta. And peanut research labs, water research labs, there' ; s all kind of research facilities located in Georgia and Senator Russell would generally pretty consistently vote to increase those appropriations. He is, as we said earlier, was very frugal, but in certain areas he would spend consistently and research was one of them. WARRINGTON: Would you like to comment on that as vis-à-vis our concern now about earmarks for legislation. Isn' ; t that pretty much the same thing? CAMPBELL: I think it' ; s, kind of, the quintessential earmark. I think the part of it that it' ; s done incognito or under the radar and it' ; s not known who put it in. Senator Russell wanted people to know he put it in, so they would name the lab for him. But he felt that--and I think he would feel if he were here today my guess is that his position would be that, look, Congress is responsible for appropriating all this money. Nobody accuses the executive of having earmarks and they' ; re making decisions on all this money about where to spend money, so why isn' ; t that an executive earmark? So why should Congress forfeit its prerogative to decide where some small percentage of this money is spent. Now, he would certainly be opposed to the " ; bridge to nowhere" ; and wasteful projects but I think he would have been a defender of the senate in the congressional prerogative to decide where some of this federal money is spent. WARRINGTON: Well, that' ; s part of our system really is these are representatives from various states and they' ; re supposed to be trying to do those things for their state. When he went up, the whole thing was so much more emphasized states rights than we do now. CAMPBELL: And of course, his attitude was he was very conservative in most areas, research being a notable exception. In most areas he voted for less expenditure but if Congress decided they were going to spend in a certain area, he was going to do everything he could to see that Georgia got a disproportionate. His kind of attitude was that if you' ; re going to spend the money, it' ; s only fair that we get more than our fair share. That was his attitude and he worked at that. WARRINGTON: And he was so powerful he was good at it but that' ; s the quote that he has often said. He was " ; Georgia' ; s man in Washington" ; and so he was going to do the best he could for Georgia and he did quite a lot. I' ; m just looking through. I had a few notes here. One thing that you spoke about, which I think is worth knowing is that Russell led a very simple life, that he didn' ; t try to enrich himself by his public office. CAMPBELL: Yeah, when you think about it, he had a very modest estate when he died and the two biggest things, I guess, in his estate was his condominium in Washington and it was a one bedroom, one small living room kitchenette--right across the street from The Watergate Building by the way, in the foggy bottom area of Washington. That' ; s basically the only thing he really owned. I don' ; t know if he had title to the home place WARRINGTON: He did. CAMPBELL: Or I think his parents left the home place to him. WARRINGTON: No, they left the home place to the whole family and he bought out everybody' ; s parts and then left it open to everybody. It was always-- CAMPBELL: But other than that he didn' ; t have very much but he was very, very frugal and part of this was being a bachelor. I mean, that one bedroom condo was nothing to write home about and the way it was kept up it was very junky and there' ; d be books lying everywhere that he was reading. He' ; d read five or six different books at a time and I remember one of the eulogies that was given by Senator Abraham Ribicoff of Connecticut who was a very liberal--he was secretary of HEW under Kennedy and Johnson and then later was elected to the Senate in Connecticut. And so he visited Senator Russell one time in Winder and one of the things he noted in his eulogy was he was struck by the fact that the most powerful member of the United States Senate was living in such simplicity. And I thought to myself when I read that, I said, " ; He should have seen that condo," ; but there' ; s no question about that. Senator Russell, it was not important to him. He was very frugal. I' ; ll tell you a couple of little stories that illustrated that are, kind of, funny. When I first got up there, one of the first things I was asked to do--he was going to a White House reception--was to go and buy him a shirt--a new white shirt. And of course, I' ; d been here in Athens and gone to the clothing stores here and so what did I know? So I go down to Woodrum and Lothram, which I think Bill Jordan told me that' ; s where I should go. And so I go down there and I buy him a shirt. I think it was $4 and something or $5 and something then which was not outrageous, I didn' ; t think. But at any rate I brought it back, well, he didn' ; t say much after he saw the bill. A day or so later a member of the staff told me that Senator Russell had told them, " ; I' ; m beginning to question this Campbell boy' ; s judgment. Do you know how much he paid for a shirt?" ; And another episode that happened one time was involving President Johnson was when Lady Bird would leave Washington, President Johnson would invite Senator Russell down to the White House and just the two of them would have dinner and they' ; d have a couple of drinks and have dinner. But on this particular occasion Senator Russell had been sick and he' ; s lost a lot of weight and there was a clothing manufacturer over in Bremen, Georgia that gave Senator Russell three or four suits every year. They were very cheap suits. I mean, when I was growing up I worked in a department store that sold those suits and so I know how cheap they were. And probably most senators wouldn' ; t be caught dead in them but Senator Russell used them all the time. And when he was talking to Johnson he was telling Johnson this time that he wasn' ; t going to be able to use them because he' ; d lost so much weight and they simply didn' ; t fit and President Johnson apparently told him, " ; Well, I know this great tailor and so you got to get in touch with him." ; Said, " ; I' ; ll have somebody call your office on my staff and give you the name and number." ; So the next morning I got a call from somebody at the White House and they said that the president and Senator Russell talked last night about a tailor that president' ; s recommending and here' ; s his name and number. So he came down and he measured the suits and so forth, pleasant sort of fellow and a couple of weeks later or ten days or so, the suits arrive and they fit very good and so forth and everything was great until Senator Russell saw the bill and, of course, the bill was about four times what the suits were worth. So I will never will forget Senator Russell said, " ; No wonder this country' ; s gone to hell if the president of the United States hasn' ; t got any better sense than to do business with somebody like this." ; And, of course, I' ; m sure Johnson didn' ; t pay a dime. WARRINGTON: He didn' ; t have any idea what they cost. CAMPBELL: So he was very frugal not only with the tax payer' ; s money but with his own money. WARRINGTON: Right. But he was frugal with the country' ; s money, too. He tried to keep that down, I think, as much as possible. I believe you told me Charles that the last time the federal budget was balanced before Clinton, before there was no deficit in spending was when Russell was chairman of the Appropriations Committee. CAMPBELL: I believe that' ; s right. WARRINGTON: I think we all feel a little reluctant for those good old days maybe. We feel like we' ; re missing those. We have talked about this a little, bit but maybe we could emphasize a little bit more or discuss a little bit more how he was a workhorse as opposed to show horse in the Senate. CAMPBELL: Yeah, that was Senator Talmadge in his autobiography had a chapter called Work Horses and Show Horses and he said about 90% of the members of the Senate are what he would call show horses. They issue a lot of press releases and have a lot of press conferences and talk about all the great things they' ; d done and there are work horses that do all the work and he listed Senator Russell as a quintessential workhorse. And Senator Russell was 65--well, when I went there he would have been 68 I guess or 67 because he was born in 1897. I went there in ' ; 65. But even then he would be there by 8:00 or 8:30. He would be there until 7:00 at night. He worked a half a day every Saturday and so I can imagine what it would be like back when he was in good health, you know, in the 30' ; s and 40' ; s and 50' ; s and a younger man. And one of the secrets, I think, was he did his own work. When you read these oral histories of senators that are here at the Russell Library they constantly say that if he spoke on the Senate floor he knew what he was talking about. He didn' ; t get up and give a speech written by somebody else that he didn' ; t know anything about. He just didn' ; t do that and I think that' ; s right. I think that in addition to integrity, modesty, devotion to the public interest, I think work ethic would be right up there among the most important. WARRINGTON: I think that' ; s almost hard for us to grasp how hard he worked and how important that was. CAMPBELL: And you know, I mean, I think most public servants work pretty hard. I mean, you know, most senators up there. But a lot of them now spend their time on PR. Senator Russell spent his time substantive matters that he was addressing. WARRINGTON: Several oral histories I' ; ve read spoke to the fact that in the committee meetings he was always so prepared that he had studied the stuff, done his homework and he knew these things and so he would dominate the discussion because he knew and a lot of other people didn' ; t know that and they learned they could trust him. CAMPBELL: Well, one of the interesting things that' ; s in one of these books that Robert Caro has written about Lyndon Johnson and it had to do with Senator Russell' ; s conducting the hearings of the joint committee on Truman' ; s firing McArthur. Senator Russell did all of his own work and Johnson thought that was outdated. He said, " ; Look, you don' ; t have use them, but I' ; ve got two great members of my staff and so we' ; ve got certain witnesses coming up tomorrow and they will have a series of questions and you don' ; t have to use them, throw them in the trash and burn them, do anything you want to with them." ; And so Senator Russell finally agreed. And so he did start using the committee staffs more at that point. But on the stuff he did in the office he did almost all of his own stuff and I' ; ll give you an example, responding to letters. Of course we got numerous letters. And Senator Russell insisted all of them be answered. Every letter from Georgia was answered unless it was what Senator Russell said should go to what we call the nut file. Somebody said, " ; Well, the nut pile is becoming those that don' ; t agree." ; But at any rate, except for that small number that went in the nut file, they would all be answered and the way they' ; d be answered was staff would draft answers but we had Senator Russell' ; s language from prior letters on say, social security, and when you are writing a letter you don' ; t wax eloquent and put Charles Campbell' ; s language in there because if you do and he happens to see that letter, it' ; s going to come back with a note scribbled on it, " ; I like my language better." ; So you were to use--and he would see probably 25 to 30 letters a day, which was a very large number for senators. Most senators didn' ; t pay any attention to any of the mail. It was written by staff people, signed on what were called Robo Machines that signed the senator' ; s signature. WARRINGTON: What would have been in that time that you were there a quantity of mail that a senator would receive? CAMPBELL: Several hundred letters a day. It was the single biggest activity was to answer those letters. And what they do is you' ; d have staff people preparing them and then you' ; d have either the administrative assistant, or Bill Jordan when he was executive secretary, reviewing them and if somebody was a close friend of Senator Russell' ; s that might get into him and the way we knew that was we had a system of name cards by county and this is the way you would address people. If that person' ; s not in those name cards, it' ; s Dear friend or if it' ; s out of state it' ; s Dear Mr. or Dear Misses. If it' ; s in the name cards it' ; s Dear Tom or whatever it is and if it was a close friend or if somebody that was a dear friend that wasn' ; t in the name cards wrote a particularly good letter on some subject, then that might be sent in. And as a part of that process, Senator Russell would be constantly dictating revisions himself and that would become the new language on a given subject and that was the way the staff would prepare responses to letters. I think far more attention was given to responding to mail in Senator Russell' ; s office than most of the other offices. WARRINGTON: And that enabled him to keep up with his constituents in a way that he-- CAMPBELL: Yes, because you have to bear in mind that this was one thing and I don' ; t know that it was a weakness in Senator Russell or a deficit, but it was a fact, he saw very few people, very, very few people did he see. By the time you take meetings with the secretary of defense and other senators and director of the CIA, he probably didn' ; t have more than two or three constituent meetings a week and I felt, kind of, bad about that. I would have liked to have had more constituent meetings because these people would come to Washington. They' ; d been voting for him for 30 years and they would not see him at all. WARRINGTON: I hate to close this down but I know people have got to go. Could you say how he influenced your life in later times? What are things about that that you would say to young people that you could admire and emulate and then maybe anything you would not want them to emulate. CAMPBELL: Well, being around him was very valuable to me in the practice of the law because when I started practicing law I became a trial lawyer. And when I first went to work there, it was a little bit difficult for me to understand what the source of his power and influence was because he had just led the unsuccessful opposition of the Civil Rights legislation which was the, kind of, big thing then so he was on the wrong side of that. He was constantly against foreign aid to these countries. And he was, you know, I think it would be fair to say by the time I got there he was outside the mainstream on most national and international issues. The one exception would be national security but even there, for example, he was opposed to the Vietnam War, so he was not with the ' ; in' ; crowd in terms of position and so for a while I said, " ; Well, you know, this doesn' ; t make much sense." ; But as I worked there longer, I understood that his integrity and his absolutely saying what was on his mind and not doctoring it or, you know, everybody in Washington' ; s got some agenda and they' ; re shading things and so forth. WARRINGTON: Spinning it. CAMPBELL: And about that time I was taking a course in ethics at the Georgetown Law School where a very successful trial lawyer was asking this professional ethics class, " ; What' ; s the single most important attribute of a successful trial lawyer?" ; And he said, " ; A reputation for integrity." ; And so the more I thought about that, that was the secret to Senator Russell' ; s power, and so that helped me a lot in the law practice. It taught me that you don' ; t cut corners. And then the other thing I think that was very beneficial even though in today' ; s world I don' ; t know frankly that this is as successful or could be as successful and that is understatement, modesty, those are qualities that I think frankly that we' ; ve lost appreciation for. Now people are expected to be very aggressive. WARRINGTON: Self aggrandizing. CAMPBELL: Exactly, but those are the things in addition to work ethic that I would cite. Again, I would have liked for him to have seen more constituents. I would have liked for him to have more interaction with all of the staff. I think President Nixon as I said earlier was right that he was not the greatest with the media, but on the core issues I think he was a very, very great man. WARRINGTON: Well, thank you so much, Charles and thank you for all the work you' ; ve continued to do. You' ; ve probably worked for Senator Russell longer than anybody. CAMPBELL: Thank you. [End of recording] Resources may be used under the guidelines described by the U.S. Copyright Office in Section 107, Title 17, United States Code (Fair use). Parties interested in production or commercial use of the resources should contact the Russell Library for a fee schedule. video 0 RBRL175OHD-011.xml RBRL175OHD-011.xml http://russelldoc.galib.uga.edu/russell/view?docId=ead/RBRL175OHD-ead.xml http://russelldoc.galib.uga.edu/russell/view?docId=ead/RBRL175OHD-011-ead.xml
Location
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Athens, Georgia
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99 minutes
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Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
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Interview with Charles Campbell, May 5, 2009
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RBRL175OHD-011
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Charles Campbell
Sally Russell Warrington
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video
oral histories
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Federal government--United States
Civil rights
Politics and Public Policy
Description
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Richard B. Russell's niece Sally Russell Warrington interviews Charles Campbell about his work for Senator Richard B. Russell and Russell’s activities from 1965 to 1971. Campbell discusses growing up in Jackson, Georgia, and attending the University of Georgia. He recalls joining Senator Russell's Washington, D.C. staff in 1965. Campbell recalls working his way from legislative assistant to executive secretary and subsequently administrative assistant. He discusses the nature of Senator Russell's relationship with his staff. Campbell comments on Russell's attitude toward Georgia and his perception of the Civil Rights Movement, sit-ins, and Martin Luther King, Jr. Campbell reflects on Senator Russell's reputation and work on Congressional issues other than civil rights, including his work with agriculture policy, national defense, education, rural electrification, and the space program. He discusses Russell's mentorship of younger senators. Campbell discusses Senator Russell's relationship with Lyndon Johnson and the media. Campbell comments on his work as the Chairman of the Russell Foundation and the Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies. He discusses Russell's eulogies and funeral.<br /><br /><span>Charles E. Campbell was born in 1942. Graduating with a degree in political science from the University of Georgia in 1964, he had begun work on a master’s degree when he was asked to introduce Senator Richard B. Russell at a Blue Key banquet in October 1964. Impressed, Russell hired Campbell, who went to work for Russell in December of 1965 as a legislative assistant. Campbell became Russell’s executive secretary and then his administrative assistant (chief of staff), staying with the Senator until Russell’s death in 1971. During this time he earned his law degree, and, following his tenure in Washington, he went to practice law with Heyman and Sizemore. In 1974 and 1980 Campbell helped manage Herman Talmadge’s senate campaigns. Campbell retired from the firm of McKenna Long and Aldridge in 2009, as a top-ranked bankruptcy/restructuring attorney. In 2009, he retired as chairman of the Russell Foundation, a position he held for seventeen years.</span>
Date
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2009-05-05
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http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
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Georgia
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moving image
OHMS
-
Dublin Core
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Title
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Dean Rusk Oral History Collection
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United States--Officials and employees
Politics and Public Policy
Description
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The collection consists of 172 oral history interviews with Dean Rusk and his colleagues between 1984-1989. Includes audiotapes and transcriptions documenting Rusk's life from early childhood in the 1910's through his teaching career in the 1980's. The interviews contain information on Rusk's service as U.S. Under Secretary and Secretary of State during the administrations of Presidents Truman, Kennedy, and Johnson and his involvement in foreign relations including the Korean War, the Cuban Missile Crisis, and the Vietnam War. The interviews also document his position as president of the Rockefeller Foundation in the 1950s.<br /><br /><a href="http://georgiaoralhistory.libs.uga.edu/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=&range=&collection=14&type=&tags=OHMS&featured=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">View all OHMS indexed interviews in this collection here.</a>
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Richard Geary Rusk
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Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Date
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1984-1989
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http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
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Oral histories
Identifier
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RBRL214DROH
Coverage
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United States
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
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https://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL214DROH-RuskPPPP/ohms
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5.3 Circa 1985 Rusk PPPP, Dean Rusk interviewed by Richard Rusk and Thomas Schoenbaum, Part 1, circa 1985 RBRL214DROH-RuskPPPP RBRL214DROH Dean Rusk Oral History Collection Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies, University of Georgia Dean Rusk Richard Rusk and Thomas Schoenbaum oral history 1:|22(11)|34(9)|45(2)|54(10)|70(1)|82(8)|98(1)|116(12)|130(9)|141(8)|150(10)|162(6)|174(7)|189(8)|202(13)|224(13)|235(1)|248(3)|260(2)|277(1)|293(9)|304(8)|324(16)|339(11)|354(10)|364(10)|379(2)|390(3)|404(1)|416(11)|430(7)|441(8)|452(5)|474(14)|485(8)|496(12)|510(2)|524(8)|534(13)|545(13)|558(14)|573(11)|595(6)|610(13)|624(4)|639(12)|657(3)|676(6)|698(4)|714(5)|726(6)|742(7)|760(10)|774(12)|786(1)|801(14)|827(8)|840(2)|850(4)|867(12) 0 Kaltura video < ; iframe id=" ; kaltura_player" ; src=" ; https://cdnapisec.kaltura.com/p/1727411/sp/172741100/embedIframeJs/uiconf_id/26879422/partner_id/1727411?iframeembed=true& ; playerId=kaltura_player& ; entry_id=1_213osqgy& ; flashvars[localizationCode]=en& ; flashvars[leadWithHTML5]=true& ; flashvars[sideBarContainer.plugin]=true& ; flashvars[sideBarContainer.position]=left& ; flashvars[sideBarContainer.clickToClose]=true& ; flashvars[chapters.plugin]=true& ; flashvars[chapters.layout]=vertical& ; flashvars[chapters.thumbnailRotator]=false& ; flashvars[streamSelector.plugin]=true& ; flashvars[EmbedPlayer.SpinnerTarget]=videoHolder& ; flashvars[dualScreen.plugin]=true& ; & ; wid=1_2mb0e48r" ; width=" ; 400" ; height=" ; 285" ; allowfullscreen webkitallowfullscreen mozAllowFullScreen frameborder=" ; 0" ; title=" ; Kaltura Player" ; > ; < ; /iframe> ; English 55 Merits of constitutional democracy Did you take part in any of the observances on the American bicentennial? Rusk discusses the U.S. Constitution, highlighting the importance of consent of the governed. He considers the difficulties other states have had in establishing democracy, and he talks about village autonomy in semi-democracies and dictatorships. authoritarian ; centralization ; China ; colonialism ; communism ; ethics ; hybrid regimes ; independence ; India ; political philosophy ; socialism ; Vietnam 17 532 Comparing presidential and parliamentary democracy / Problem solving in Congress As to the form of democracy... Rusk ponders whether parliamentary democracy would be more effective than presidential democracy in the United States. He describes the struggle to reach congressional consensus rather than impasse, and he talks about least common denominator solutions. cabinet ; Connecticut Compromise ; divided government ; Earl Warren ; Electoral College ; Phinizy ; separation of powers 17 905 Conflict and consensus building in Congress / Truman's Secretaries of State You make a point that government officials need to spend enormous amounts of time just to make the system work. Rusk explains conflict within Congress, as well as between Congress and the executive branch. He talks about President Truman and the 80th Republican Congress, which, despite its nickname as the " ; Do Nothing Congress" ; , established NATO and enacted the Marshall Plan. Rusk comments on Secretaries of State Stettinius, Marshall, Acheson, and Byrnes, whom Rusk characterizes as a rogue elephant. Arthur Vandenberg ; Congressional committees ; FDR ; foreign affairs ; foreign policy ; Geroge Marshall ; Reagan ; Roosevelt ; Truman ; UN ; United Nations 17 1449 Constitutional powers You have made the point that the Presidency is a license to persuade. Rusk talks about the democratic process and willingness to follow presidential leadership. He discusses the impact of federal and state level constitutional overreach, and he comments on patriotism. Rusk explains the division of foreign policy powers between the president and Congress. He mentions President Johnson's willingness to discuss foreign affairs with members of Congress and cabinet members. appropriations ; budget ; Commander in Chief ; constitution ; foreign relations ; legislation ; mandate ; McNamara ; treaties ; War Powers Act 17 2043 Relationship between Secretary of State and the president In terms of the relationship between the President and the Secretary of State... Rusk explains that his relationship with Congress increased Johnson and Kennedy's confidence in him as secretary of state. He considers whether a secretary of state can be too close to a president, and whether this would impact a secretary's ability to represent the State Department, the national interest, and the American people. authority ; chain of command ; foreign policy ; George Marshall ; trial balloons 17 2527 Congressional committees and foreign affairs / The executive branch and foreign affairs You make the general point that there's really no alternative to reaching consensus in our system. Rusk suggests that congressional committees with jurisdiction over different elements of foreign affairs should hold joint hearings. He recalls that Presidents Johnson and Kennedy gave the State Department significant influence over foreign diplomatic and intelligence activities. Allen Dulles ; ambassadors ; CIA ; communications ; embassies ; foerign policy ; foreign relations ; House Foreign Relations Committee ; John Foster Dulles ; official presence ; Senate Armed Services Committee ; Senate Foreign Relations Committee 17 3046 Interest groups / Campaign financing My question pertains to this interest group business. Rusk talks about interest group lobbying, noting that the secretary of state is largely insulated from lobbyists, who are more commonly concerned with domestic policy and legislative issues. Rusk advocates for an increase in interest groups, but expresses concern about political action committees (PACs) and the cost of running for office. activists ; advertisements ; business interests ; campaign contributions ; Congress ; interagency cooperation ; legislature ; national interest ; Organization of Jewish Organizations ; right to petition ; super PAC ; television 17 RICHARD RUSK: Rich Rusk and Tom doing the interviewing. This interview is about the American Constitution. We' ; ve developed some questions based on my dad' ; s Phinizy Lecture of 1983 to the University of Georgia. It' ; s called " ; In Praise of Consensus: Reflections on the American Constitution." ; Let' ; s follow along with the flow of the article in terms of the sequence of these questions. Tom has some additional questions as well. DEAN RUSK: Okay. RICHARD RUSK: In the introduction, Professor [Billups] Phinizy Spalding talked about you and Mom [Virginia Foisie Rusk] showing up at Athens local city council meetings. DEAN RUSK: On occasion. On occasion, but not really very often. RICHARD RUSK: What were the issues? DEAN RUSK: Oh, some local issue--usually a zoning problem or something like that. RICHARD RUSK: Okay. That' ; s noncommittal. Did you take part in any of the observances on the American bicentennial? DEAN RUSK: Yes. But you' ; d have to look at my 1976 calendar. Ann [S. Dunn] will help you get to that to see just which ones. But I think the bicentennial of the Constitution coming up in ' ; 89 will be far more significant an event because the Constitution had much more meaning, not only for us, but for the entire world than did the Declaration of Independence. RICHARD RUSK: On your first page you say that " ; the most powerful and explosive political idea [sic] to be found in the world are those ideas embodied in the Declaration." ; DEAN RUSK: I had particularly in mind the notion that governments derive their just powers from the consent of the governed. You see, our founding fathers had read the literature of the subject from ancient Greece to eighteenth century Britain. And I suppose that philosophers can find some false with this notion that governments derive their just powers from the consent of the governed. But when you look at the alternatives, what would seem to be better? The divine right of kings? The dictatorship of the proletariat? Class rule? So I' ; m inclined to think that this simple notion is deeply imbedded into the very nature of man himself. And in the longer run this idea continues to emerge. [Mohandas Karamchand] Gandhi pointed out during his lifetime that there have been many tyrants and despots in history, but they' ; ve all fallen. And here we' ; ve had two hundred years under our Constitution and it is still a living reality, without having been deeply injured at any point. SCHOENBAUM: Would you go so far as to say this is in the nature of mankind, or would you stop short of that in terms of political philosophy and say that it may be the best thing to do from an ethical standpoint? But is it really a part of the nature of mankind in that sense? DEAN RUSK: I think in general and in the long run, I personally think it is. Of course one cannot prove that. Well, [Thomas Babington] Macaulay pointed out once that the worst thing you can do to me is to kill me. Well, I' ; m going to die anyhow, so I' ; m a free man. But I' ; ve just seen this at work in so many different places over a long period. Now there are various devices which governments use to obtain and maintain what we might call the consent of the governed. But I have great faith in this simple notion at the end of the day. RICHARD RUSK: I think Tom raises a valid point. Democracies had one heck of a hard time getting established elsewhere in the world, such as Africa and Latin and South America. DEAN RUSK: Well it took several centuries of struggle in Great Britain to impose constitutional restraints upon the exercise of the power of the state. And some kings lost their heads along the way in connection with that issue. RICHARD RUSK: That' ; s right. We' ; ve got a lot of your comment about the British constitutional system and their own history and their traditions. But you think there' ; s nothing in the experience in your times regarding democracy and the difficulty with which that system has had taking hold in other countries to suggest that perhaps it' ; s not really in accordance with man' ; s true nature? DEAN RUSK: Well the largest democracy in the world today is India with, what, six hundred and fifty or seven hundred million people? We can' ; t say that democracy is incompatible with non-western cultures. Japan is a pretty good example of a democracy. But I think what happened in a good many of these newly independent countries that started off on a democratic basis was that during their struggle for independence their leaders promised them that, or told than that, their misery, poverty, illiteracy, disease, was due to the presence of a colonial master, and that when the colonial master left things would improve. Well when the colonial masters did leave things did not improve. So these leaders of the newly independent countries have had the hounds of hell barking at their heels to get on with it and improve their conditions. Well now there' ; s a superficial attractiveness about socialism or communism in terms of moving fast on some of these things. But in fact, these systems simply don' ; t work economically, socially to a considerable extent. So I think that there may well be a revival of interest in democratic institutions, although today there are at least fifty military dictatorships in the third world, and it' ; s not going to be easy. I don' ; t suggest that our own particular constitutional arrangements are necessarily suited to any other people. RICHARD RUSK: You' ; re talking about this theory? DEAN RUSK: I' ; m talking about the broad notion of a government based primarily upon the attitudes of its own people. RICHARD RUSK: What does the Chinese experience suggest to you? Does it more or less confirm your thinking, or perhaps challenge it in a way? China has made enormous strides in important fields: productivity, public health education, better standard of living for its own people. DEAN RUSK: The elimination of flies. RICHARD RUSK: What does that suggest in terms of what we' ; ve been discussing? DEAN RUSK: My guess is, and I don' ; t know this first hand. Tom, you might have a better appreciation of it than I. My guess is that despite the rigors of a centralized political system headquartered in Peking, that when you look at those hundreds of thousands of villages all over the country, that in those villages there' ; s a high degree of village autonomy where the peoples in the village by and large run their own villages. SCHOENBAUM: Yeah that' ; s true. DEAN RUSK: Now this was true in Vietnam where there was a very considerable degree of village democracy at work on the part of villagers who didn' ; t really care very much about what was going on in Saigon and Hanoi. So I think you' ; ll find a good deal of that. I think you' ; ll find a lot of that in India. But these things are evolving. I would have to say that today, when you look around the world, being a little generous in your judgments, there are probably about thirty constitutional democracies in the world. The other one hundred and thirty or so nations have varying degrees of dictatorship, ranging all the way from a completely totalitarian system where every sixty people have a local watchman to keep tabs on them, all the way around to situations where dictatorship amounts to not much more than political monopoly at the top, where the man in the street does not feel the heavy hand of a totalitarian system. SCHOENBAUM: There' ; s an interesting question left hanging in the Phinizy lectures that I' ; d like to ask ; and that is that, as to the form of democracy--I remember you said at one point in the Phinizy lecture that when it came to the presidential system versus the parliamentary system, you were opposed to a halfway parliamentary solution such as restricting cabinet members to members of Congress and that kind of thing. But it was very intriguing that you said--I think your words in the Phinizy lecture [were], " ; It may be advisable to go to some kind of full-blown parliamentary system." ; You seemed to think that you wouldn' ; t be as opposed to that as you would a halfway solution compared to our presidential system. DEAN RUSK: Well, I personally believe that our system has worked at least just as well, and perhaps better, than the other parliamentary systems that we know of. One cannot make a case that they have somehow governed their countries better than we have over the past two hundred years. I value the notion of separation of powers in the federal government, partly because that forces us to seek a consensus. Otherwise we reach an impasse. And that pressure toward consensus, I think, is a very healthy thing in our system. Now what I did not like was somehow going halfway. I would prefer, if we' ; re not going to continue with our present system, we go all the way to a parliamentary democracy. But we are large, diverse, turbulent people and I' ; m not sure that a parliamentary system would be better for us. Remember that we became a nation only because some major compromises were made by the founding fathers, such as between the larger colonies and the smaller colonies in establishing two senators for each state regardless of size, and then the Electoral College process for actually choosing a President. So our founding fathers put considerable limits on what might be called ' ; pure democracy,' ; the passing whims of the people ; and indeed wrote into the Constitution a good many things which a majority simply cannot do in this country enforceable by the courts about rights. RICHARD RUSK: On page eight of that Phinizy lecture you quote Earl Warren has having said that " ; Impasse is the greatest threat to our constitutional system." ; And you have said that enormous amounts of time and efforts in communication and compromise are needed to make the system work. We' ; ve had a series of one-term Presidents--[Ronald Wilson] Reagan is an exception--a lot of crippling fights in the Congress over important matters, federal budget, a host of problems that remain unresolved. We' ; ve had lack of consensus over foreign affairs. Are we facing impasse now? DEAN RUSK: We' ; re always facing impasse. Earl Warren made those remarks in a private session with a small group here in our Law School on that visit. And I think there' ; s reality to it. You see, the possibility of the impasse turns up almost literally every day. The President has significant powers, but fewer powers than many people think. If you make a list of the things that a President can do all by himself it' ; s a very short list. Almost everything he does requires legislation or appropriations or both. The Senate and the House are independent bodies in relation to each other, except with regard to treaties and nominations which are especially assigned to the Senate. One must constantly adjust one' ; s own view in the interest of a consensus. Now some people call that wheeling and dealing. Well I suppose there are instances of wheeling and dealing which would be reprehensible. But unless there is a readiness on the part of everybody who takes part to take account of the other fellow' ; s view and try to find some central theme of policy which most can support, then I think our system would not work very well. RICHARD RUSK: You make the point that impasse is always a problem. But isn' ; t it true that impasse is more of a problem today than, say, earlier periods in our history, back in the thirties? DEAN RUSK: There have been times when we have had a President of one party in the White House and one or both houses of Congress dominated by the other party. That was true for six of [Dwight David] Eisenhower' ; s eight years. It was true for Harry Truman in the Eightieth Republican Congress. It' ; s now true for Reagan as far as the House of Representatives is concerned. Well now, we have to suppose that all these people are trying to do the right thing as they see it, that they are trying to do what is good for the country. But they really have to spend a good deal of time with each other and put their heads together and try to work out some common ground on which the government can act at the end of the day. Now, there' ; s a little danger in that, and that is that we come out with the least common denominator. It may be that the least common denominator is the worst of the alternative solutions. But I think the record shows that on the whole, over time, our system has worked very well. RICHARD RUSK: We' ; ve got a lot of comment on other tapes about congressional relations and press relations and these other things that are brought out in the Phinizy lectures ; and I don' ; t see any need to repeat any of that. Hopefully we can skirt the edges of what we already have and yet get some new material. You make a point that government officials need to spend enormous amounts of time just to make the system work. If they do this, is that really a case where the system is working? If they have to devote that kind of energy to making the system work, what does that time come at the expense of? You know, you have said that twenty-five to thirty percent of your time was spent with congressional affairs. George Marshall made a statement in World War II after having gone before several of these congressional committees: " ; Well gentlemen, do you want me to appear down here every day or conduct the war?" ; or something along those lines. DEAN RUSK: That' ; s right. RICHARD RUSK: Do you recall exactly what he said? DEAN RUSK: I think that was essentially what he said. He said, " ; Do you want me to fight the war or spend my time down here before committees of Congress?" ; Then they began to let up on him. RICHARD RUSK: If this enormous amount of time and energy is truly needed to make the system work, is the system workable? DEAN RUSK: Well I think the record shows that the system is workable. It has worked for almost two hundred years in one way or another, except for that short period of the Civil War. But what else would a fellow be doing? Pondering his navel? Dean [Gooderham] Acheson used to say that you could only think in action. There' ; s no point in going off in a corner and pretending just to think. You' ; ve got to think about a real situation and what you do about it. Well this process is very much a part of that. And also bear in mind that, for example, there' ; s a lot of experience in the Congress, a lot of experience in foreign affairs on some of those key committees of Congress. And when a new administration comes in, they should tap that experience, listen to it, and get advice from it. And in the process they will find that they will be working toward a consensus on which both sides can agree. But it is a difficult system. But it was deliberately made difficult, complicated by our founding fathers in the interest of putting restraints on the use of power. And it has served to do that and it has forced us always to seek a consensus. Now sometimes there will be a President who will not be very amenable to consultation with members of the other party or with leaders of Congress. Mr. Reagan once challenged Congress to ' ; make my day' ; and that sort of thing. Well, I think that is basically the wrong approach. They should really recognize that they are working for the same country and they should try to find out what is best for the country as a whole, and in that process to take account of each other' ; s views. RICHARD RUSK: Incidentally, how was Harry Truman in his relations with Congress? DEAN RUSK: Well, he was a little feisty at times in his public attitude. But he got almost all the legislation he wanted through Congress. Curious thing about Harry Truman in this respect, the Eightieth Republican Congress, under the leadership of Senator Arthur [Hendrick] Vandenberg, was a great Congress in terms of foreign relations. This was the period of the creation of the Marshall Plan and of NATO [North Atlantic Treaty Organization] and of launching of the United Nations and things of that sort. And Truman worked very well with Arthur Vandenberg. So did George Marshall, and later Dean Acheson. Well then, when Truman ran in ' ; 48, he very naughtily ran against ' ; that do-nothing Congress' ; , when it was a great Congress in foreign relations. Of course, he was focusing his attention on domestic matters. But sophisticated politicians understand that when election time comes that sort of thing happens. And I don' ; t know how many Republicans bitterly resented Harry Truman' ; s doing that. But he took time out to be a Democrat. SCHOENBAUM: Now Truman had four Secretaries of State. Isn' ; t that right? [Edward R.] Stettinius [Jr.], [James Francis] Byrnes-- DEAN RUSK: Marshall and Acheson. SCHOENBAUM: Marshall and Acheson. That' ; s interesting. I don' ; t know that a President has had four different Secretaries of State. Maybe this President will wind up with four. And over a period of a relatively short time. How would you contrast the workings of Truman--well you' ; ve said a lot with Marshall and Acheson about relations between them. But how would you compare those four? Four different personalities between Secretaries of State. DEAN RUSK: Well that was partly accidental. Ed Stettinius was a very decent fellow, but not a very intelligent fellow. And Harry Truman came to see that. And he called in Ed Stettinius and said that " ; the post of the United Nations was the most important post I have at my disposal in my administration, so I want you to leave the job of Secretary of State and take that job at the United Nations." ; And Ed Stettinius did. Now when Ed Stettinius got up there, we in the State Department had to write verbatim every speech he made because he simply wasn' ; t able to do what an Adlai [Ewing] Stevenson [III] could do, or something like that. So Jimmy Byrnes succeeded Stettinius. Well now Jimmy Byrnes was very bitter about not being President because he thought he ought to have been FDR' ; s [Franklin Delano Roosevelt] Vice President and he expected to be FDR' ; s Vice Presidential candidate in 1944. So Byrnes kind of looked down his nose at Truman and tended to forget who was President. And Harry Truman was the wrong man to be forgetful about on that matter. And so they-- SCHOENBAUM: Can you give a couple of specific examples? For instance, I was reading that-- DEAN RUSK: Well, Byrnes would go off to Europe or to Moscow and conduct high- level negotiations with those capitals and would not report accurately in detail back to the President, would not keep the President informed about what was going on. And Truman didn' ; t like that. In any event, Harry Truman believed, and I share this belief, that George Marshall was the greatest living American. And so Truman decided to call on George Marshall to be Secretary of State. And George Marshall accepted. He didn' ; t seek the post, but he did what the President asked him to do and proved to be a great Secretary of State. But George Marshall ran into some health problems. He had some spots on a kidney or something like that and had an operation and so. Well then, in the campaign of ' ; 48 when everybody thought that Harry Truman was going to be defeated, Dean Acheson remained loyal and publicly loyal to Harry Truman. There was one occasion I remember when President Truman came back from one of his barnstorm whistle-stop campaign trips, came back into Union Station there in Washington, and Dean Acheson was the only person on the platform to meet him. Well Truman didn' ; t forget that sort of thing. SCHOENBAUM: Were you there too? DEAN RUSK: No I wasn' ; t there. I was a professional officer and it wasn' ; t my job to be political. But Dean Acheson was there. And so when Marshall became ill Truman turned to Acheson. SCHOENBAUM: I read that Byrne-- DEAN RUSK: There' ; s an S on it. Byrnes. SCHOENBAUM: Byrnes. I' ; m sorry. Byrnes on his own agreed that the United States would recognize Bulgaria and Romania on the Russian promise that they would give free elections and that Truman was terrifically upset about this. DEAN RUSK: I don' ; t recall that. I wasn' ; t involved in that. I don' ; t recall that incident. SCHOENBAUM: Another one that Byrnes overruled [William Averell] Harriman' ; s advice in September of ' ; 45. Harriman' ; s advice was that Truman should go and explain to the American people what the Soviet Union was doing publicly, to explain this publicly. And Byrnes overruled this advice because it-- DEAN RUSK: Well I don' ; t know. There were a number of differences between Jimmy Byrnes and Harry Truman. You see, if there are differences of view between a President and his Secretary of State, at the end of the day the views of the President must prevail. And Jimmy Byrnes wasn' ; t ready for that. RICHARD RUSK: Pop, let me continue with some questions about this Phinizy lecture. And you more or less took the position in that lecture that the Constitution is a pretty good system and it' ; s worth preserving. And you defended it. There' ; s been a number of critics of our constitutional system and I am asking these questions as a critic, more or less to draw you out on your own theme. DEAN RUSK: Okay. RICHARD RUSK: You have made the point that the Presidency is a license to persuade. And my question is, in light of all these one-term Presidents we' ; ve had recently, are the American people perhaps less persuadable now? Are the American people willing to follow presidential leadership? And a related question would be, have we lost sight of important national goals? DEAN RUSK: To begin with, you must never expect anything approaching unanimity among our people. Bear in mind that almost any President knows that almost half of the people who voted wanted somebody else to be President, voted against him in the last election. Sometimes Presidents and people around them tend to forget that. But I think also that the impact of television, not only in terms of how public figures appear on television, but what the television community itself does with respect to public policy issues has made some difference. The arts of persuasion have changed somehow. For Harry Truman it was a whistle-stop campaign. For Ronald Reagan it' ; s television. And there' ; s considerable difference between those two. I can regret it and prefer the good old days, but that doesn' ; t do any good. No, I think you' ; d probably find that there' ; s a kind of backlog, maybe what, thirty percent, forty percent, among the American people for supporting your President, almost regardless of the direction in which he wants to go. There' ; s a kind of readiness to respond to the President' ; s leadership. But a lot of these questions are extraordinarily complicated, involving dozens and dozens of secondary and tertiary questions, and some of them requiring on-balance judgments and razor edges decisions. And on those, honest men and women can disagree. But you see, our structure is set up in such a way that we resolve these differences through constitutional process and somehow find a way to act at the end of the day. And that' ; s what the democratic process is all about: a way to resolve the differences among ourselves by peaceful means. RICHARD RUSK: Have there been other developments in modern times that have complicated presidential leadership, national leadership, and the ability to form consensus on policy? You mentioned television. What about the influence of these special interest lobby groups, the industrial military complex? DEAN RUSK: I don' ; t want to sound insufferably conservative or old-fashioned, but the intrusion of the federal government into more and more issues has complicated this process. What in the world would our founding fathers think if they were told that the Constitution is going to be used to require that men and women be in the same gym classes in colleges and universities? You see, if you count the first ten amendments to the Constitution as a part of the original Constitution and then knock out the two prohibition amendments which cancel each other out, we' ; ve amended our Constitution only fourteen times. And if you look at those amendments, they have all been about process: eighteen-year voting age, votes for women, the succession to the Presidency, issues of that sort. We have not cluttered up, thus far, our federal Constitution with a lot of things on which action could be taken by legislation. Now our state constitutions have become a jungle, because we' ; ve been putting into our state constitutions a lot of things which could be done by legislation. When people talk to me about abortion and prayer in schools and a balanced federal budget and things like that ; well these are things that could be done by legislation, so I' ; m rather allergic to putting a lot of that kind of crap into the Constitution. RICHARD RUSK: Pop, in researching your story I' ; m struck by the times in which you grew up as a child. They definitely were different times. They were certainly simpler times. Patriotism was a living force then, more of a force then than today. Do you think the American have people lost some sense of commitment to these national visions and national goals embodied in the Declaration? DEAN RUSK: I don' ; t really think so. We don' ; t have very many occasions in which a citizen decides whether or not he loves his country. They happen from time to time. World War II was such an occasion. Even during Vietnam we had pretty strong support at the grass roots for the first six or seven years of that struggle. No I think that there' ; s a sense of patriotism around. Unfortunately some of it gets drawn off into jingoism, some of it drawn off into isolation and xenophobia [fear of the foreigner], but I think it' ; s still there. You know I think, maybe I' ; ve commented, that during the Cuban Missile Crisis we were rather interested that the people around the country seemed to be so calm. There were not large-scale riots and there was some buying up of food in grocery stores, but by and large the country was calm. And we wondered at the time whether that meant that the people around the country did not understand how serious a crisis it was. Well as I have traveled around the country and talked to people since then, I' ; m convinced that they did understand that it was a serious crisis and were nevertheless calm. Now that itself is a kind of patriotism. RICHARD RUSK: Well it' ; s good to hear you say that. END OF SIDE 1 BEGINNING OF SIDE 2 SCHOENBAUM: --Constitution and the relationship in the Constitution between the foreign affairs power of the President and the foreign affairs power of the Congress. As you know, that' ; s one area that the President and Congress, specifically in the terms of the Constitution, share power. And it' ; s never been a very comfortable sharing, especially in the days of undeclared wars and covert operations and things like that. Have you thought through as consistent theory of how this power should be shared? And are you satisfied with the present arrangement which involves, as you know, the War Powers Act? DEAN RUSK: Well we think of the President as having very extensive powers in foreign policy, and in some respects he does. He is the chief diplomat ; he is the one who gives instructions to our ambassadors abroad even though the Secretary of State gives most of them on his behalf ; he is Commander-in-Chief of the armed forces ; and he' ; s symbolic head of the nation. But if you look at the powers of Congress that affect foreign relations, you find vast powers that reside on Capitol Hill, things like budgets and appropriations, the approval of treaties, the very organization of the executive branch of the government, all those things. Now I don' ; t see any possibility of our getting on with our public business unless there is genuine cooperation between the President and the leaders of Congress of both parties. And I mean on both sides. A President must be ready to listen to and take the advice of people on Capitol Hill and vice versa. Now Lyndon [Baines] Johnson undoubtedly holds the record for Presidents who have spent the most time with Congress. And he was in touch with congressional leaders all the time, several times a day by telephone on a typical day. And he had them down to the White House frequently. In two successive years in the late sixties he invited every senator and every member of the Congress to come down to the White House in the afternoon in groups of about thirty, have a drink and listen to short briefings, and then to put their questions, make their comments, observations. And he was directly in touch with every member of the Congress in those meetings at the White House. SCHOENBAUM: Were you also present at those meetings? DEAN RUSK: I usually went. [Robert Strange] McNamara and I usually opened up with a few remarks, a little talk, and then-- RICHARD RUSK: Were those meetings held at your suggestion? DEAN RUSK: No. This was President Johnson' ; s idea. Well I remember sitting at--I forget now just who it was--sitting at dinner at the White House one night in the Johnson years, sitting next to a Republican senator who had been in the Senate throughout the Eisenhower administration. And that evening was the first time that he and his wife had ever been invited to the White House. RICHARD RUSK: Is that right? DEAN RUSK: And he was very much impressed with that. But I think I said somewhere else that Henry [Alfred] Kissinger once called me when he was Secretary of State and said that he had studied the time that Secretaries of State spent with the Congress and that I was the champion. That doesn' ; t surprise me, because it' ; s just an essential part of the conduct of our public business. SCHOENBAUM: In terms of the relationship between the President and the Secretary of State, it seems to me to be that you were perhaps the last Secretary of State historically that had what I think most people would call a special relationship with his President. Others, of course Marshall with Truman, John Foster Dulles with Eisenhower, you with President Johnson certainly, had that special relationship. Is that a sine qua non for good performance? Do you think that special relationship--how does that help, and how does it perhaps hurt the-- DEAN RUSK: Well the complete confidence of the President is essential to a Secretary of State, and there are many threads in that relationship. This sounds self-serving, but I have a clear impression that both President Kennedy and President Johnson valued my relations with Congress. They had good reports from the Congress as to me and my relations with Congress. And I spent a lot of time at it and did so on a nonpartisan basis. And I think President Kennedy, particularly, was impressed with my relations with Congress. But that confidence of the President in a Secretary of State is something that a Secretary of State just can' ; t do without. And if he senses that he does not have it, then he should get out. Now that' ; s manifested in many directions. If somebody comes up with a damn fool suggestion about foreign policy and the Secretary of State overruled it or objects--well if the Secretary of State loses too many of those to a President, then he knows that he does not have the full confidence of the President. SCHOENBAUM: Can a Secretary of State be too close to the President, in the sense that is it perhaps not advisable in some respects that the President and the Secretary of State not be too closely identified? Not that the President does not have absolute confidence in the Secretary of State, but the Secretary of State can operate by testing the waters on the Hill and can toss in the air trial balloons or that kind of thing. DEAN RUSK: Well I don' ; t think a Secretary of State should float trial balloons in the Congress or with the press. Now, if you' ; re sitting down with an individual senator or a congressman in his office, just chewing things over, you might bring up some off-beat ideas to see what the senator or the congressman might think about them, or maybe he might interject some ideas of that sort. But I think it would be an abuse of the process for the Secretary of State to use the Congress to float trial balloons. RICHARD RUSK: What about from the point of view that the Secretary of State represents not only the President but also his own constituency, and that' ; s the State Department, Foreign Service, and what' ; s in the best national interest of the United States in foreign affairs? And is it possible for a Secretary of State to truly represent not only that constituency but truly, you know, fight for what' ; s in the best national interest if he' ; s too closely identified with the President? DEAN RUSK: Well the principal constituency of the Secretary of State, which is largely unrecognized and unspoken, is the American people. He' ; s working on things that affect the life and death of the nation. Now he doesn' ; t have a political constituency in the usual sense, but in his own thinking he must look upon the entire country as his constituency. Now that' ; s true of a President. A President at least has got to try to be the President of all the people, not just those who put him in office. And those who depart from that find themselves in trouble and do a disservice to the position. SCHOENBAUM: I' ; ve always been struck by that statement that George [Wildman] Ball made in his memoirs. I can paraphrase it as to when Johnson was President and you were Secretary of State that at a certain point, as of about 1966-67, George Ball put it that Dean Rusk, subject to the, I think he said, the general supervision of the President exercised and carried out the foreign policy of the United States. He made that statement, which I thought was an unusual statement that certainly would not be made of George [Pratt] Schultz today. It might have been made about John Foster Dulles, but certainly would not have been made about many Secretaries of State in American history. Can you shed some light on that? DEAN RUSK: Well, I did have pretty extensive authority under both of my Presidents, probably a little less so with John F. Kennedy because he himself personally was curious about and interested in so many details. So I had to keep an eye over my shoulder to be sure that I touched base with him on a good many things. But Johnson believed in using the chain of command. And so I had considerable authority under Johnson to get on with the business. But even so, I think there ought to be a little bit of an arm' ; s length relationship between a President and a Secretary of State. The responsibilities are too great to have any of these things be affected by purely personal relationships. SCHOENBAUM: That' ; s an interesting point. If we can probe that. I' ; m just repeating what I think some people have said, that there was perhaps too close a relationship between you and President Johnson, too close maybe even a personal relationship, that you were maybe too much on the same wave length, you were both from the South, both with a similar background. In other words, were you aware of the dangers of perhaps too close a relationship at the time? And what would that enter into in retrospect? DEAN RUSK: Oh, I' ; m not aware of it. You see one thing a Secretary of State must do is to be sure that the President is aware of the choices open to him, the alternatives, the lines of action which might be possible. And if a Secretary of State just concentrates on talking to the President about his own recommendation, then he badly serves the President. He must point out to the President that there are those who think something else, and something else, and something else. But it' ; s true that President Johnson called me by my first name, whereas President Kennedy always called me Mr. Secretary ; but that' ; s partly because we came out of the same background, and also because we occupied a good many foxholes together where the grenades were being tossed at us. And you get to know somebody in a foxhole pretty well. But I think there needs to be a kind of arm' ; s length relationship among people who are carrying high responsibilities. George Marshall felt that very strongly. RICHARD RUSK: So you never told Lyndon Johnson, " ; It' ; s Mr. Secretary, Mr. President." ; DEAN RUSK: No I didn' ; t. No I didn' ; t. No I didn' ; t. (laughter) RICHARD RUSK: Tom, unless you' ; ve got one or two other questions on that particular line of inquiry--Pop, you make the general point that there' ; s really no alternative to reaching consensus in our system, that, I think you would say, there are no structural ways of sort of working around this or changes in the Constitution that can work around this. You proposed something specific, I think, after you left Washington. Perhaps you did it while you were there. And that is in response to this proliferation of congressional committees that would be involved in foreign affairs, I believe you asked, you suggested, that the Senate Foreign Relations Committee and the House Foreign Relations Committee could have sort of broad oversight responsibilities. DEAN RUSK: Yes. Well you see, at the present time almost literally every committee of Congress finds itself involved in foreign relations. RICHARD RUSK: We' ; ve got that down on other tapes. My only question was-- DEAN RUSK: Yeah, but the-- RICHARD RUSK: --how far did you--Go ahead. DEAN RUSK: The point is that with these foreign relations powers in the Congress spread over an entire committee structure, I have felt for some time that it would be useful that there be one place where some committee could look at each item in relation to foreign policy as a whole, because each committee has its own particular fish to fry. And I felt that the Senate Foreign Relations Committee and the House Foreign Affairs Committee ought to be able, under the rules of their respective bodies, to call before themselves any matter pending in any other committee for the purpose of looking at it and at least commenting on it from the point of view of our foreign relations as a whole. I don' ; t think those two bodies will do that because there' ; s too much jealousy among the committees. But there' ; s no committee in the Congress which has a responsibility for foreign relations as a whole. RICHARD RUSK: What did you do with that idea? DEAN RUSK: Well I' ; ve suggested it to members of Congress. I think I' ; ve written it on one or two occasions. But I just don' ; t think it' ; s one of those ideas that will take root because, even though it may be a very good idea. Now once in a while, I should say that, when something important comes up that it affects in a very important way, say, two different committees of Congress, they' ; ll have either joint hearings or they' ; ll have hearings in both committees on those issues. For example, as between the Foreign Relations Committee and the Senate and the Senate Armed Services Committee. And that' ; s all right, but there have been times when the Foreign Relations Committee would invite members of the Armed Services Committee to come in during discussion or hearings on a particular topic. SCHOENBAUM: That reminds me of something that' ; s related. As you say, almost every committee of Congress treats foreign affairs to some degree and there should be some coordination. And by the same token, almost every agency in the executive branch gets into foreign affairs. DEAN RUSK: That is correct. SCHOENBAUM: I understand that in 1966, President Johnson tried to do something about that and adopted a very similar, a closely analogous policy and did designate the State Department as in charge of all overseas foreign affairs, state-head leadership of all overseas activities. DEAN RUSK: Well almost every department and agency of government finds that in carrying out its own statutory responsibilities it has to go beyond our national frontier. This is not just State, it' ; s Treasury, and Commerce, and Defense, and Labor, and Agriculture, and the Social Security Administration, the Veterans' ; Administration, everybody. Well, one thing we did in the Kennedy years was to send a letter to every ambassador naming him as the head of the American official presence in his particular country. He was responsible for whoever might be there from any other department or agency. RICHARD RUSK: The activities of the CIA? DEAN RUSK: Yes. Including-- RICHARD RUSK: He could dig into any of those activities? DEAN RUSK: Including communications from the CIA out from his post. Now I' ; m sure that some ambassadors did not exercise that full responsibility ; some of them just let it go by. But I know that others did. And then bear in mind that in the usual sense the State Department, Secretary of State, controls communications with our embassies and with foreign governments. Now there were times when I would use that in order to get on with the job despite some picayune objection that somebody in some other agency might have about it. And I would simply say, " ; This is the cable we' ; re going to send," ; and leave it up to them to try to get to the President to hold it up. So that power of controlling communications is a very important power. So is, by the way--if any bureaucrat ever listens to this: So is the power of the first draft. The department or agency that puts in the first draft for consideration already has a running start because it is that draft that becomes the topic of conversation. And the State Department should try never to relinquish that to some other department or agency. SCHOENBAUM: As you say, during the sixties it was necessary for a Presidential directive to go out specifically giving state leadership overseas. DEAN RUSK: Yes, I think you' ; ll find that letter in the Presidential papers of John F. Kennedy. SCHOENBAUM: Did he do this on your advice? DEAN RUSK: Yes. I' ; m not sure you want to use this, but during the fifties-- RICHARD RUSK: That only confirms that we do want to use it.' ; DEAN RUSK: During the fifties when the head of CIA was the brother of the Secretary of State, some rather bad habits developed, and those tended to extend on into the sixties. For example, back in the fifties the local CIA station chief would report through CIA channels on the performance of the American ambassador. Then Allen [Welsh] Dulles would send these over to John Foster Dulles. Well that' ; s just not the way to run a railroad, and we put a stop to that. SCHOENBAUM: Did J. [John] Edgar Hoover keep doing that during the Johnson years? DEAN RUSK: J. Edgar Hoover? No. SCHOENBAUM: Not J--I mean-- DEAN RUSK: No, no. We stopped that. SCHOENBAUM: Allen Dulles, wasn' ; t he-- DEAN RUSK: He was for a time. SCHOENBAUM: Allen Dulles was for a time in the sixties. Yeah. So you put a stop to that? That' ; s interesting because--and that can be said as to people that are--As you know some people have criticized the management of the State Department during the sixties and I' ; m glad we have that on the record that that was your recommendation. Did you make that? Can you tell us more about the circumstances of that recommendation? How you made it? And whether Kennedy accepted it or whether he had to be talked into it? RICHARD RUSK: You were the author for that letter, is that right? DEAN RUSK: Well I think it flowed naturally out of that letter putting the ambassador in charge of everybody, every official, in his country. Well when David [Kirkpatrick Este] Bruce went to London as our ambassador for President Kennedy he learned almost immediately that there were more officers in the embassy in London than there were in the British foreign office. And he found that only twenty-three percent of them were from the State Department. The rest of them were from some forty-four different departments and agencies of government because it gets to be a matter of prestige to have somebody serving overseas for you, you see. And it' ; s that kind of thing that just tends to grow and grow and grow. The military attache motorpool in London at that time was 1arger than the motorpool for the rest of the anbassy combined. And it just didn' ; t make any sense. RICHARD RUSK: You got a follow-up on that? SCHOENBAUM: Well, just maybe one more. What about the NSC [National Security Council] staff and the State Department staff? How does that-- RICHARD RUSK: My question pertains to this interest group business. And there are people who say that American democracy has been changed somewhat by the influence of these special interest groups and these very effective and powerful lobbying techniques that they have developed. A lot of money is involved in this and there are permanent representatives of these lobbies in Washington. They' ; re meeting in Congress. They meet constantly with Congress, administration officials. Was this a big factor for you as Secretary? Obviously there were some very powerful lobbies that have always been involved with government: the China lobby, the Jewish lobby in Israel, and some of those. But just as a general thesis, do you subscribe to this idea that American democracy has been at least damaged by this special interest group representation back there and how did it affect you as secretary? DEAN RUSK: Who would you put on your list of special interest groups? If you started listing them one by one you' ; d include almost everybody before you got through. We are a nation made up of diverse groups and with diverse interests. Now I must say that the-- RICHARD RUSK: That is true. But, by golly, these interests, these groups, have really organized, and they have permanent representatives and budgets and big money to plow into this. And that is a different step. DEAN RUSK: You' ; re talking very largely, though, about domestic matters rather than foreign policy, except for Israel. RICHARD RUSK: Well, I need to know that. DEAN RUSK: And these lobbies do their work in Congress. You may be surprised to hear me say this, but I do not recall one occasion while I was Secretary of State that any top businessman or group of businessmen came in to see me urging one point of view on foreign policy rather than another. Now I did meet more than once with the presidents of the Organization of Jewish Organizations. Now let' ; s see, who else might have been in to see me. I invited the student body presidents of some eighty student bodies who had signed a joint letter to me about Vietnam. I invited them to come in to talk to me about it. But this lobbying activity-- RICHARD RUSK: That' ; s the one where they had their draft reply ready before they walked in? DEAN RUSK: Yeah. But these lobbying activities you have to be aware of because you' ; ll feel their impact on Capitol Hill. You know that there' ; s a farm lobby ; you know that there' ; s a textile lobby ; you know that there' ; s a steel lobby, a shoe lobby, a glass lobby. You' ; re aware of all that. And you know that you have to be aware of that when you talk to committees or individual senators and congressmen. RICHARD RUSK: But they were really not involved with you? DEAN RUSK: They didn' ; t come at me, you see, because so many of these powers really are constitutionally for the Congress to decide. At the present time there' ; s a good deal of huffing and puffing between the President and the Congress on the budget and on taxes and on tax reform. Well, the constitutional power to adopt a budget, the constitutional power to decide on taxes rests with the Congress. A President can make his proposals and the Constitution anticipates that. He can propose, but it is for the Congress to dispose, as some would put it. And therefore I think a President is well advised to treat with respect the constitutional power of the Congress on these issues. Otherwise he gets into real trouble. It' ; s for the Congress to provide an army and a navy: Article I, Section 8--enormous powers there. And a President must always be aware of those powers. Lyndon Johnson was always fully aware of them because he had been on the other end of Pennsylvania Avenue for many years. RICHARD RUSK: Would these lobbies have been involved in lower levels administration in ways that perhaps you weren' ; t aware of? DEAN RUSK: Oh, it' ; s possible that if some company ran into an Arab boycott because they were doing business with Israel that one of their representatives might come to talk to the Assistant Secretary of State about that just to see what the situation is and what, if anything, could be done about it. RICHARD RUSK: But there just wasn' ; t very much of that? DEAN RUSK: But there' ; s just very little of that. Another curious thing about this, and this may sound a little surprising to you. The responsibility for the initiative for consultation between the two branches of government really rests with the President and the executive branch. It' ; s just turned out that way. In my eight years I can' ; t recall more than a half a dozen occasions, in eight years, when a senator would pick up the phone and say, " ; Dean, I' ; d like to come by at the end of the day today and talk to you about something." ; Or, " ; Would you, next time you' ; re down here, will you drop in my office?" ; Now some of that is simply consideration for the time pressures on a Secretary of State, but the initiative for consultation--Now some of the committees will call you quite frequently when they want to talk about something. But the initiative for consultation really rests with the executive branch. RICHARD RUSK: Okay, you don' ; t subscribe to this theory and you' ; ve learned from practice that these lobbying groups didn' ; t have much effect upon you or the executive branch necessarily, but do you-- DEAN RUSK: A very considerable effect, indirectly through the Congress. RICHARD RUSK: That' ; s right. But do you see a threat to American democracy or complications for our system? And again we' ; re trying to talk about these things in the context of constitutional issues. DEAN RUSK: I don' ; t believe there' ; s any way that-- RICHARD RUSK: Let me finish. DEAN RUSK: Yeah. Go ahead. RICHARD RUSK: Due to the fact that special interests, the individual interests are so well represented and so effective in making their views known on Capitol Hill and yet when that happens, who' ; s arguing the national interests? If these congressmen are deceived by these special interest groups, and I think they probably are, what happens to the national interest? DEAN RUSK: Well, it' ; s up to people in government to cut through all that and keep working on discovering and applying the national interest. But let me point out that you' ; ll never get rid of these various lobbying groups because the Constitution provides that citizens have a right to petition the Congress. And the answer, in my judgment, would be to have more rather than fewer lobbying groups: people who lobby for the consumer interest and lobby for education and lobby for things are of concern to the people as a whole. But they' ; re short of money whereas these business interests can at least put up the money to establish offices: trade associations in Washington who are key lobbyists. SCHOENBAUM: The money part of it must be more severe now than it was in the sixties. With the development of the PACs [political action committees] and large campaign contributions, do you see severe, moderate, or no danger in that? Do you think something should be done, beyond what we already have in election campaign laws ; anything can be done about the contributions to political campaigns which, in effect, some people think, buy votes? DEAN RUSK: Well I' ; m concerned about the greater and greater amounts of money required to run for political office. Here in Georgia it takes three and one half million dollars to run for the Senate in a genuinely contested election: Once through the primaries and once through the general election. Well, when somebody thinks about having to raise three and one-half million dollars it' ; s a pretty appalling prospect. RICHARD RUSK: What do you give up to have to raise that kind of money? DEAN RUSK: It depends on who you are. My guess is that Sam Nunn does not have to yield any of his views on principle in exchange for campaign contributions. But he has been able to rise above that ; he' ; s untouchable in that respect. Some others, though, are very beholden. RICHARD RUSK: Brother David [Patrick Rusk]? (laughs) DEAN RUSK: When my son David was the mayor of Albuquerque, various and sundry people talked to him about running for statewide office. But he faced the prospect of having to raise somewhere between one and two million dollars to make such a race in a state which didn' ; t have a million people in it. It' ; s pretty appalling. And I think one of the unhappy things about television is that television has added enormously to the costs of running for political office. RICHARD RUSK: You made reference to several of the constitutional amendments that have been proposed: a constitutional convention six-year presidential term-- END OF SIDE 2 Resources may be used under the guidelines described by the U.S. Copyright Office in Section 107, Title 17, United States Code (Fair use). Parties interested in production or commercial use of the resources should contact the Russell Library for a fee schedule. video 0 RBRL214DROH-RuskPPPP.xml RBRL214DROH-RuskPPPP.xml http://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL214DROH/findingaid
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61 minutes
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Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
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Rusk PPPP, Dean Rusk interviewed by Richard Rusk and Thomas Schoenbaum, Part 1, circa 1985
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RBRL214DROH-RuskPPPP
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Dean Rusk
Richard Rusk
Thomas Schoenbaum
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audio
oral histories
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sound
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United States
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Federal government--United States
Lobbying
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Dean Rusk interviewed by Richard Rusk and Thomas Schoenbaum. Topics include U.S. Constitutional Law, the diplomatic and consular service, the U.S. Congress and Senate, lobbying, and national security. <br /><br />This interview is continued on <a href="http://georgiaoralhistory.libs.uga.edu/RBRL214DROH/RBRL214DROH-RuskQQQQ">Rusk QQQQ</a>.
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ca. 1985
OHMS
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Dean Rusk Oral History Collection
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United States--Officials and employees
Politics and Public Policy
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The collection consists of 172 oral history interviews with Dean Rusk and his colleagues between 1984-1989. Includes audiotapes and transcriptions documenting Rusk's life from early childhood in the 1910's through his teaching career in the 1980's. The interviews contain information on Rusk's service as U.S. Under Secretary and Secretary of State during the administrations of Presidents Truman, Kennedy, and Johnson and his involvement in foreign relations including the Korean War, the Cuban Missile Crisis, and the Vietnam War. The interviews also document his position as president of the Rockefeller Foundation in the 1950s.<br /><br /><a href="http://georgiaoralhistory.libs.uga.edu/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=&range=&collection=14&type=&tags=OHMS&featured=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">View all OHMS indexed interviews in this collection here.</a>
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Richard Geary Rusk
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Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
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1984-1989
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http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
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Oral histories
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RBRL214DROH
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United States
Oral History
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https://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL214DROH-RuskQQQQ/ohms
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5.3 Circa 1985 Rusk QQQQ, Dean Rusk interviewed by Richard Rusk and Thomas Schoenbaum, Part 2, circa 1985 RBRL214DROH-RuskQQQQ RBRL214DROH Dean Rusk Oral History Collection Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies, University of Georgia Dean Rusk Richard Rusk Thomas Schoenbaum oral history 1:|12(5)|23(8)|40(12)|51(6)|65(10)|96(12)|115(3)|128(10)|143(6)|156(2)|171(12)|187(13)|197(10)|219(4)|234(1)|248(3)|261(9)|277(8)|289(5)|300(2)|313(8)|327(11)|337(12)|353(10)|374(3)|391(1)|400(1)|409(11)|426(5)|453(4)|474(11)|489(13)|510(12)|549(8)|573(17)|594(3)|610(13)|624(11)|637(11)|661(2)|678(7)|693(2)|721(4) 0 Kaltura video < ; iframe id=" ; kaltura_player" ; src=" ; https://cdnapisec.kaltura.com/p/1727411/sp/172741100/embedIframeJs/uiconf_id/26879422/partner_id/1727411?iframeembed=true& ; playerId=kaltura_player& ; entry_id=1_iccgc8xk& ; flashvars[localizationCode]=en& ; flashvars[leadWithHTML5]=true& ; flashvars[sideBarContainer.plugin]=true& ; flashvars[sideBarContainer.position]=left& ; flashvars[sideBarContainer.clickToClose]=true& ; flashvars[chapters.plugin]=true& ; flashvars[chapters.layout]=vertical& ; flashvars[chapters.thumbnailRotator]=false& ; flashvars[streamSelector.plugin]=true& ; flashvars[EmbedPlayer.SpinnerTarget]=videoHolder& ; flashvars[dualScreen.plugin]=true& ; & ; wid=1_3rnfrq7e" ; width=" ; 400" ; height=" ; 285" ; allowfullscreen webkitallowfullscreen mozAllowFullScreen frameborder=" ; 0" ; title=" ; Kaltura Player" ; > ; < ; /iframe> ; English 0 Constitutional amendment proposals / The Supreme Court's Equal Protection ruling We were treated to a curious irony a few months ago that very few people noticed. Rusk talks about proposed amendments, including requirements for a balanced federal budget, a six year presidential term, and the Equal Rights Amendment. He warns against expanding the scope of the Constitution, supporting states' rights as outlined in the Tenth Amendment. Rusk questions the Warren Court's legal basis for the " ; one man, one vote" ; amendment (see more at link, < ; i> ; Reynolds v. Sims< ; /i> ; 1964 below), given that representation in the Senate is not proportional. 10th Amendment ; 14th Amendment ; civil rights ; Congress ; equal protection ; ERA ; Fourteenth Amendment ; intermediate standard ; legislature ; levels of scrutiny ; Reagan ; women's rights 17 https://www.oyez.org/cases/1963/23 < ; i> ; Reynolds v. Sims< ; /i> ; 1964 Supreme Court Case 581 The Supreme Court and foreign policy In the Phinizy Lectures you had a number of comments, I think well taken, about the Court and foreign affairs... Rusk discusses the role of Supreme Court Justices in providing foreign policy advice. He praises the court's cautious participation in Washington social life. Rusk talks about Chief Justice Warren's reluctance to head the Warren Commission, and he assesses constitutional challenges to the Vietnam War. Abe Fortas ; assassination ; Dean Acheson ; Earl Warren ; FDR ; Felix Frankfurter ; JFK ; Johnson ; Kennedy ; LBJ ; Roosevelt ; Tonkin Gulf Resolution ; war powers ; William Douglas 17 962 Litigation against Rusk and other executives ...beginning in the sixties and continuing today, the head of any government agency is subject to being sued in his or her personal name... Rusk talks about < ; i> ; Afroyim v. Rusk< ; /i> ; (1967), which led to immigration law reform. He also discusses < ; i> ; Goldwater v. Carter< ; /i> ; (1979), a case challenging President Carter's power to terminate a security treaty with China, stating that the Supreme Court does not have constitutional jurisdiction over such matters. Rusk talks about the source of foreign policy powers according to Justice Sutherland and explains how Congressional politics can prevent litigation. Arizona ; Beys Afroyim ; Carl Hayden ; immigration law ; naturalization ; Taiwan ; U.S. Fifth District Court of Appeals ; United States v. Curtiss-Wright Export Corporation 17 1503 The State Department's legal counsel Did you get involved at all in preparing the defenses or advising your legal counsel on how to handle these constitutional cases? Rusk talks further about his involvement in legal cases, emphasizing the role of the State Department's legal adviser's office and the solicitor general. He names one exceptional case in which he refused legal advice to submit an extradition warrant for a Canadian labor leader. Canada ; international law ; perjury 17 1773 The implications of Watergate In your Phinizy Lecture you talked about your experience at the Law of the Sea Conference in Venezuela... Rusk recalls President Nixon's resignation and supports the pardon offered by President Ford because it prevented a " ; playacting" ; trial. He comments on the constitutionality and reality of power allocation in the period before Nixon's resignation, stating that Cabinet members guarded against irrational decisions. Rusk notes that Watergate showed the strength of the U.S. Constitution. Cabinet ; Ford ; impeachment ; Kissinger ; Law of the Sea Conference ; national military command center ; Watergate 17 2154 Runnymede / The British judicial system / Rusk's nomination to the Supreme Court The Runnymede incident, where you showed up representing Lyndon Johnson... Rusk remembers a memorial service in which Queen Elizabeth presented an acre of Runnymede land to the U.S in honor of President Kennedy. He discusses the common legal heritage of the United States and Great Britain, and he compares the two states' high courts. Rusk recalls that President Johnson sought to nominate him as a Supreme Court Justice, despite his lack of a law degree. Bill of Rights ; Constitution ; Habeus corpus ; History of the Common Law ; Law Lords ; Magna Carta ; William Holdsworth 17 DEAN RUSK: --to require a balanced federal budget. We were treated to a curious irony a few months ago that very few people noticed. On a Monday of a certain week, President Reagan called for a constitutional amendment to require a balanced federal budget. On the Wednesday of that same week he sent a budget to the Congress with a two hundred billion dollar deficit in it. Nov ; what would he have done on the Wednesday if his proposal of Monday had been in effect? Now this whole thing is a phony. The Congress and the President now have the constitutional power to balance the budget if they wish to do it. They would not dare put a constitutional amendment in on that point without having in it an emergency clause. And then if the Congress and the President are not willing to balance the budget, they would simply invoke the emergency clause and we would live under the emergency clause for a time without end. So it' ; s really a phony issue. I don' ; t like to see that. Some people have found very attractive the idea of a single six-year term for a President. Well, President Johnson seemed to think well of that after he left office, and one or two others. But I agree with former President Gerald [Rudolph] Ford [Jr.] in opposing such an amendment. To me, I think it is too dangerous for a President, and particularly people around him, to think that he can be there for six years without having to worry too much about what the American people are thinking about the issue. I think a President must always have in his mind, " ; What would the American people think of this if they knew about it tomorrow morning at nine o' ; clock?" ; And so I don' ; t like to see a man in that office for six years without any further reference to the people. I think I would be willing to see terms of the members of the House of Representatives extended to four years rather than two years because that two-year cycle of election is a very difficult thing for these fellows to live through. RICHARD RUSK: And you initially supported the ERA [Equal Rights Amendment] but later changed your mind to some degree in response to some of the tactics that they developed? DEAN RUSK: Well, I supported the ERA Amendment because of my general attitude toward civil rights, and I even talked to some of the members of the State Legislature here in Georgia about it when I first came down here. RICHARD RUSK: What did Georgia do with the ERA? DEAN RUSK: They did not adopt it. But then I dropped away from that kind of support when many of the supporters of the ERA started organizing boycotts against states which had not approved ERA, because I was opposed as a constitutional matter to that kind of pressure on state legislatures. I think we have to be very careful about reserving or preserving the right of state legislatures to vote constitutional amendments up or down without that kind of pressure. Now, another reason that I lost some enthusiasm for the amendment itself is that the objectives of the ERA can easily be achieved by legislation. All the Congress has to do is to enact a very brief law stating that the equal protection of the Fourteenth Amendment applies to all citizens regardless of nationality, race, sex, whatever else they want to put in there. And it' ; s clear that the Congress has that power. But the ERA Amendment has gotten to be a kind of symbol and we' ; re spilling a lot of blood over something that could be achieved in another way, at least on an interim basis until such time as the ERA might be adopted as an amendment. But even if the ERA is adopted as an amendment, it would then be up to the courts and perhaps to legislatures to deal with the difficult problem of reasonable classifications, which you find in regard to any of these constitutional rights. And if it were decided that women, even with an ERA Amendment, should not be members of combat forces, the courts would hold, I think, that that would be a reasonable classification under the circumstances. RICHARD RUSK: There' ; s been some talk about convening a constitutional convention to consider possible amendments to the Constitution. DEAN RUSK: There is a possibility that sufficient action by state conventions will require the calling of a general convention on the balanced budget issue. And the interesting question is whether there is any way that the Congress, in calling for such a national convention, could limit its agenda. You see, when our founding fathers met in 1787, they were there to make some changes in the Articles of Confederation. But before they got through they swept the whole thing aside and built an entirely new system of government. So I think-- RICHARD RUSK: So in that sense that constitutional convention could be sort of a scary thing? DEAN RUSK: It could become a runaway convention if it were held that there was no way to impose any limits upon its agenda. RICHARD RUSK: And that idea sort of alarms you? DEAN RUSK: It does to a degree because all sorts of bits and pieces would be thrown into the Constitution. RICHARD RUSK: You think so? DEAN RUSK: Yeah: Abortion, prayer in the schools, and all sorts of things might find their way there. RICHARD RUSK: So you make the point that the Constitution has only been amended about-- DEAN RUSK: Fourteen times. RICHARD RUSK: Fourteen times, excluding the prohibition and it' ; s repeal, and yet that' ; s been two-hundred years and the world has changed a great deal. DEAN RUSK: Yeah. RICHARD RUSK: And if that' ; s true, either the founding fathers are incredibly wise or, as critics of the Constitution say, we need another look. The problems of the world have changed to the point where we have structural problems as well as problems of leadership-- DEAN RUSK: Well, the Constitution is a flexible instrument. It' ; s capable of growth. The courts have pointed that out over and over again. And when the Constitution was written nobody even dreamed of the possibility that man would enter outer space. That hasn' ; t caused any problems from a constitutional point of view. RICHARD RUSK: Do we need any constitutional amendment at this point? Is there anything at all that would be helpful? DEAN RUSK: I mentioned extending the congressional term from two years to four years. I think that might be a very good idea. Perhaps have that congressional election coincide with Presidential election years. But I' ; m very wary of amendments to the Constitution which are not basically, in effect, procedural in character. I wouldn' ; t like to see a lot of things dumped into the Constitution which can be done by legislation. RICHARD RUSK: Tom, do you have any questions regarding the Supreme Court? [break in recording] DEAN RUSK: Some people think, particularly law students and some law faculty that the Constitution is what the Supreme Court says it is. Well that overlooks the fact that there are a great many constitutional questions which do not reach the Supreme Court and which the Supreme Court cannot deal with. The Supreme Court itself has worked out certain doctrines such as political questions and the doctrine of standing to limit its own role in many questions. But day by day constitutional questions arise which simply don' ; t go to the Court. If the Congress doesn' ; t give the President the full appropriation he' ; s asking for for a particular purpose, there' ; s no way the President can go to the Supreme Court and get an order from the Supreme Court to the Congress to appropriate the full amount. No way. So that every day they have constitutional issues arise which simply are not reachable by the Supreme Court. RICHARD RUSK: Yeah. Do you think the Court has struck the proper balance between those issues it chooses to involve itself with and those that it ducks? DEAN RUSK: In general I haven' ; t too many complaints with it. Although it was rather curious when the Warren Court forced the states and the local governments to adopt the one man-one vote rule, that the Supreme Court didn' ; t seem to be impressed with the fact that we do not have that rule in the federal government. The Court couldn' ; t touch the federal government because that arrangement was written into the Constitution itself. But we don' ; t have one man-one vote rule in the federal government. A citizen of New Mexico has a much heavier weight in choosing a senator than does a citizen of California and New York. So I was a little surprised that the Supreme Court told the states that they could not have arrangements that are comparable to the arrangements of the federal government. RICHARD RUSK: What would be the other instances of cases where the Court has overstepped its authority or did not step in where it properly should have? DEAN RUSK: Well, I' ; d have to think about that for a while. SCHOENBAUM: I was going to ask a question related to the Court. In the Phinizy Lectures you had a number of comments, I think well taken, about the Court and foreign affairs and the relatively small role, if any, of the Court in foreign affairs. Now I' ; d like to reverse the question. I think that during the sixties and even as far back as [Franklin Delano] Roosevelt' ; s time--I' ; m thinking of Felix Frankfurter--there are many instances of the individual members of the Court participating in the executive branch in an advisory capacity. What does that do? DEAN RUSK: I think we ought to be rather careful about that. Actually, Dean [Gooderham] Acheson, when he was Secretary of State, and Felix Frankfurter walked to work together every morning. And clearly they talked about foreign policy matters, at least part of the time. Lyndon Johnson would call in Abe Fortas, when he was a Justice of the Court, to sit in on policy discussions. I had some misgivings about that. Now, I will tell a little story that-- RICHARD RUSK: That we can use! DEAN RUSK: Justice [William Orville] Douglas, during my period as Secretary of State, would occasionally leave the bench and go off somewhere to make a speech about foreign policy. Indeed, in one occasion in talking to reporters I said that I would try not to decide Supreme Court cases if he would leave foreign policy alone. But that didn' ; t make any difference to him. Well I was at a White House party one evening and Chief Justice Earl Warren came up alongside of me and he referred to Justice Douglas. And he said, " ; I just want you to know, Dean, that if you decided that you wanted to respond to my brother we would not consider that an offense at the Supreme Court." ; (laughter) SCHOENBAUM: Did you ever meet Justice Douglas? DEAN RUSK: Oh, I' ; ve met him on two or three occasions. But I think it was a little naughty of him to go off and make speeches on foreign policy that were not in line with the administration' ; s policy. RICHARD RUSK: Any other dealings between you and members of the Court in the sixties? DEAN RUSK: Not really. I was impressed with the fact that the Justices of the Supreme Court live a very antiseptic life around Washington. On the whole, they are very careful not to let themselves become involved in the discussion of matters which might later come before the Court. Now a man like Justice [Hugo Lafayette] Black or some of those Justices simply did not engage in the social life of Washington. When Chief Justice Warren was invited to an embassy dinner, he would occasionally go. And that made him the senior American present because the Chief Justice is senior to the Secretary of State. Well, at the end of the dinner, when the post ambassador made his toast to the President of the United States and then the senior American toasted the chief of state of the embassy, Chief Justice Warren would simply rise and propose the toast and then he would say, " ; I will ask my friend, the Secretary of State, to make some comments." ; He wouldn' ; t make any comments under those circumstances ; he would leave that to me. But Earl Warren was very good in dealing with foreigners. He did go on some foreign trips while he was Chief Justice, and those were very good goodwill missions. But on the whole, my experience with the Court has been that these Justices are very careful about their personal life in Washington and don' ; t let themselves be dragged in. SCHOENBAUM: Did any of them ever informally try to give you some advice the way Frankfurter maybe talked to Acheson? DEAN RUSK: No. Earl Warren was very resistant to Lyndon Johnson' ; s insistence that he head up the Warren Commission in investigating the assassination of John F. Kennedy. He was very resistant, but LBJ gave him the old LBJ treatment and he finally succumbed. RICHARD RUSK: And it helped that commission, I' ; m sure, to have him. DEAN RUSK: I am sure it did. RICHARD RUSK: The Court was under some pressure to review the constitutionality of the Vietnam War. DEAN RUSK: Well, they had it before them on a number of occasions and simply rejected challenges to its constitutionality on the grounds that both the President and the Congress had operated their will. Now an interesting case came up when Jimmy Carter terminated the security treaty with the Republic of China on Taiwan. RICHARD RUSK: Let me go back just for a minute on this Vietnam thing. Was LBJ or you, either of you, worried about the constitutionality of the Vietnam War being in fact reviewed by the Supreme Court? Was it a close thing? DEAN RUSK: No. We didn' ; t think it was a close thing because the scale of the forces that were used before 1964 were so small that there seemed to be no doubt that the President had the constitutional authority to deploy that number of servicemen as Commander-in-Chief. It had been done on hundreds of occasions before then. But then after the so-called Tonkin Gulf Resolution, the Congress had declared the policy of the Congress with respect to Vietnam and we took the view that this was not an avoidance of the war power, but an exercise of the war powers of Congress. And the Congress said that the United States is prepared to use armed forces as the President shall determine to oppose those committing aggression against those protected by the Southeast Asia Treaty. RICHARD RUSK: On legal grounds you were confident then and you remain convinced today? DEAN RUSK: No question now about the constitutionality of it. Now the policy is open for debate, but I have no doubt about the constitutional issues. SCHOENBAUM: What about the experience as head of the State Department or head of any government agency during, I think--really, beginning in the sixties and continuing today, the head of any government agency is subject to being sued in his or her personal name even though the suit is really not directed personally at them. DEAN RUSK: Yes, well, if you' ; re Secretary of State you' ; re named in suits of that sort and when you leave office your successor is substituted by name. But there were a number of such suits before the Supreme Court during my day and I lost a number of them. Let' ; s take the case of [Beys] Afroyim against Rusk. Here was a Jew who was a naturalized citizen of this country for thirty-five or forty years. He paid a visit to Israel and in the enthusiasm of the time over there he voted in an Israeli election. Well under our immigration law, anyone who votes in a foreign election loses his citizenship. And so the State Department, in effect, took his passport away and he brought suit. Well now, here was a case where-- RICHARD RUSK: Did they take his citizenship away too? DEAN RUSK: Well, the State Department did. Well here' ; s a case where I had a constitutional duty to try to enforce the law. After all, the law had been passed by the Congress and signed by our President. It was a part of the law of the land. I had a duty to try to enforce the law. So we joined with the solicitor general to try to oppose Afroyim in that case. Now personally, I hoped to lose that case because I thought the law itself was ridiculous on that point. RICHARD RUSK: Why didn' ; t you consider mounting a challenge to that? DEAN RUSK: In fact we did lose it. Because my duty was to support the law. Now after the Supreme Court decided that that part of the immigration law was unconstitutional, some senators and congressmen insisted that I keep the law as it was on the books and not revise regulations so that the next poor devil who found himself in that position would have to bring his own suit. Well, I felt that was a bad constitutional process and harassment, and I went ahead and changed the regulations on that point to conform to the Supreme Court decision. And I got criticized by some senators and congressmen for doing so. So you get into that kind of thing. Now there' ; s one important case that we ought to mention here on this subject. When Jimmy Carter terminated the security treaty with the Republic of China on Taiwan, Senator [Barry Morris] Goldwater and some colleagues and congressmen brought suit challenging his constitutional power to terminate that treaty. Well, that is the kind of question which I think the Supreme Court simply cannot handle. In other words, we can' ; t have the Supreme Court deciding whether or not a security treaty, of all things, is in effect. It' ; s not for the Supreme Court to decide who are our military allies. They can' ; t order the President to send troops in case that particular country is attacked. This is one of those political questions which simply is beyond the competence of the court. And we don' ; t want nine men who haven' ; t been elected by anybody to make such decisions over against the so-called political branches of the government. So there are a good many constitutional questions which cannot be reached by the Court. The U.S. Fifth District Court of Appeals in the U.S. Court system invited me to come down to Texas to a judicial conference they had to speak to them and a lot of lawyers down there. And in those remarks--Ann [S. Dunn] might be able to find them--I urged the courts to be a little careful about their rhetoric ; in effect, to confine their language to the issues that are necessary to make the decision and not confuse things by becoming too far-ranging and flowery. And I used the case of the U.S. against Curtiss-Wright Export Corporation. In that case, Justice [George] Sutherland, one of the very conservative nine old men that FDR-- RICHARD RUSK: Sutherland? DEAN RUSK: Sutherland. Justice Sutherland, very conservative member of the Court that FDR used to quarrel with, came up with the doctrine that the powers of the federal government in foreign affairs do not come from the Constitution at all, but they came by direct succession from the British government when we became an independent nation. And that to me is utter nonsense, completely revolutionary in notion, and is a kind of unhelpful language that the Court shouldn' ; t use. Now I must confess that in my eight years as Secretary of State I never heard anyone, in dealing with a constitutional issue, refer to this U.S. against Curtiss-Wright Export Corporation. But then if later we had to write a legal brief, our lawyers in arguendo would cite the U.S.-Curtiss-Wright case, you see? So we need to be a little abstemious about language that is excess to the purpose at hand. RICHARD RUSK: Pop, just how involved did you get in these constitutional cases? There must have been hundreds naming the Department, perhaps you. In your Phinizy lecture you made reference to a Colorado River water business involving Mexico. Just in thinking back do you recall other constitutional cases that you did become involved in? DEAN RUSK: Well there are constitutional problems involved in some of these matters that don' ; t go to the Court. For example, we had a long-standing controversy with Mexico about the quantity and the quality of the Colorado River waters that we send downstream to Mexico before it enters the Gulf of Lower California. And it seemed to me clearly that we were in the wrong on both points. So we began to move to find some--among other things, for example, irrigation districts in Arizona that were outside the natural watershed of the Colorado River were pumping their polluted water, their tainted water, over into the Colorado River to add to the deterioration of the quality of the water going to Mexico. Well, we started moving in to get ourselves right on this agreement with Mexico, whereupon Senator Carl [Trumbull] Hayden of Arizona, who came to the Congress when Arizona became a state and who was almost senile at this time, simply passed word to us, " ; Leave my irrigation districts alone." ; Now it just happened that Senator Carl Hayden not only was President pro tem of the Senate, but he was Chairman of the Senate Appropriations Committee. Now there' ; s a constitutional question. Because if you didn' ; t listen to him you knew you were in trouble across board on your appropriations. Well, you can' ; t go to the Supreme Court and say, " ; Gentlemen judges, figure this one out," ; because it' ; s just not workable that way. So we fooled around and finally worked out an arrangement whereby we put a desalinization plant down in the lower Colorado River and-- RICHARD RUSK: At federal expense, I' ; m sure. DEAN RUSK: Yeah. Sure. But--(laughs) RICHARD RUSK: While we' ; re on the topic of outrageous remarks from senators to you, or congressmen to you, any others leap to mind? DEAN RUSK: I' ; m convinced that the overwhelming majority of senators and congressmen are honest, decent people trying to do a good job. But there are always a few who step over the bounds. I went to see one senator once about getting his vote on foreign aid. And he heard me out and then he leaned back in his chair and he said, " ; Well Mr. Secretary, I' ; m interested in the price of cattle and in the price of oil. If you can do something for me on the price of cattle and the price of oil I' ; ll try to do something for you on foreign aid." ; Now this was not just the interest of people in his state. He personally was heavily interested in both cattle and oil, you see. SCHOENBAUM: It must have been Senator [Robert Samuel] Kerr (laughter) RICHARD RUSK: Can we identify that one for the record? SCHOENBAUM: Was it Senator Kerr? DEAN RUSK: You named him, I didn' ; t. But you run into that kind of thing from time to time and you just have to learn to live with it and work your way around it. RICHARD RUSK: Did you get involved at all in preparing the defenses or advising your legal counsel on how to handle these constitutional cases? DEAN RUSK: Oh, to some extent, but not really in detail. And I delegated that kind of thing to our legal adviser' ; s office and to, of course, the solicitor general handled that kind of litigation for the State Department. [break in recording] RICHARD RUSK: What was your involvement with constitutional cases? DEAN RUSK: When these cases would come up I would be involved in the discussion of the general policy, but I would leave the legal work to the legal adviser' ; s office and to the solicitor general. Now there was one famous case in which I--an extradition case--which I was unwilling to take the advice of the legal adviser' ; s office. Many years ago the Canadians asked an American labor leader to come to Canada to help root the communists out of their maritime unions. So he went up there and spent a good many years, but in the process they used some pretty heavy-handed tactics and he found himself accused in Canada of conspiracy to commit assault, whatever that is supposed to mean. Well, conspiracy to commit assault was not an extraditable offense under the extradition treaty. While he was out on appeal he jumped bail and came back to the United States. Jumping bail is not an offense subject to an extradition treaty, but the Canadians asked that he be extradited. In order to do it, they went back to an administrative hearing some years earlier and found that in some administrative hearing this man had denied the facts on which he was later convicted in Canada. So they brought perjury. They asked that he be extradited on the grounds of perjury. Well, here was a case where the Canadians were using perjury to convert non-extraditable offenses into extraditable offenses. And in that perjury situation he did not have the benefit of Fifth Amendment rights in Canada. And so I just decided, dammit, that this was an American citizen located in the United States and that I was not going to have the Canadians jiggle this thing around and extradite him on the basis of perjury in a situation where he had a right to deny ; he had a right to assert his innocence. Now behind the scenes I might confess finally here on tape that a member of the Canadian Cabinet told a Cabinet colleague of mine that they didn' ; t really want him back, that there was just so much of a fuss in the Canadian Parliament they had to ask for him. Well, the legal adviser' ; s office recommended that he be extradited. And I called then and said, " ; Now I' ; m not going to extradite this man. So you do the best you can with the law of the matter." ; The extradition law states that the final step in extradition is a personal decision by the Secretary of State. It' ; s a ministerial decision, as it is with the Home Secretary in Great Britain. And the statute says that the Secretary of State may issue a warrant of extradition. It doesn' ; t say he shall. He may issue. Well that means he may not. So that final decision of the Secretary of State is a plenary decision. So I just refused to extradite this fellow. SCHOENBAUM: Overruled the legal (unintelligible). DEAN RUSK: And that created quite a flap in Canada, and they negotiated a new extradition treaty. RICHARD RUSK: Oh, they did? DEAN RUSK: Yeah. In which conspiracy to commit assault, or something like that, was included among the crimes that could be extradited. RICHARD RUSK: When the government would serve process against you or rather, these various attorneys would serve process on you, what would they do? Bring the papers into your office? DEAN RUSK: No. I don' ; t know on whom they served those. Maybe the legal adviser. RICHARD RUSK: When you were named? DEAN RUSK: Yeah, when I was named. Yeah. No I don' ; t recall ever having personally received a subpoena. RICHARD RUSK: Pop, in your Phinizy Lecture you talked about your experience at the Law of the Sea Conference in Venezuela at the time that Richard Nixon resigned and the reactions of delegates there. DEAN RUSK: Oh, yes. RICHARD RUSK: Care to flesh that out? That' ; s an interesting story. DEAN RUSK: I was in Caracas, Venezuela at a session of the Law of the Sea Conference as a member of the U.S. delegation. And one evening I sat with about fifteen representatives of other countries listening by shortwave radio to President Nixon' ; s resignation speech. It was a very dramatic evening. Well afterwards almost all of these fifteen representatives found a way to come up to me and say, " ; This is very impressive. You must have a very strong Constitution. This could not have happened in our country." ; END OF SIDE 1 BEGINNING OF SIDE 2 DEAN RUSK: --raised some very serious constitutional issues for us. But there' ; s such strength and resilience in our constitutional system that we came through even that in order. I must confess, President Gerald Ford brought us out of the trauma of Watergate pretty decently and pretty cleanly. By the way, I might. RICHARD RUSK: You did not foresee that Nixon resignation or his eventual impeachment. I remember after the Saturday Massacre I called from Nome, Alaska and said that Nixon was a dead duck. DEAN RUSK: No. I wasn' ; t sure what would happen because I wasn' ; t sure that even if the House had brought a bill of impeachment against Nixon in the Senate that the Senate would have provided the necessary two-thirds vote to impeach him. But I might add a comment here that might surprise some people. I approved the step taken by Gerald Ford to pardon Richard Nixon promptly for a reason that I haven' ; t heard people talk about. I thought that as soon as President Ford knew that he was going to pardon Richard Nixon, he should have gone ahead and done it and not put prosecutors, defending attorneys, judges, juries, through a great charade. Because had the trial proceeded with Ford knowing he was going to pardon Richard Nixon, this would all have been a playacting. And I thought Ford took the right step. RICHARD RUSK: A very courageous step. DEAN RUSK: Yeah. RICHARD RUSK: Anything further about that incident? DEAN RUSK: No. I became somewhat concerned in that summer of--what was it--' ; 74. SCHOENBAUM: ' ; 74. DEAN RUSK: About-- RICHARD RUSK: That whole experience definitely confirmed-- DEAN RUSK: --what this whole experience would do to the personality of a President. Here he was, beleaguered on all sides. It must have been hell for him. I even wondered whether at the end of the day he might commit suicide sometime. And I was a little concerned about the powers of the President being in the hands of a person who was so distraught and I was glad to hear later that the Secretary of State and the Secretary of Defense had, in effect, interposed themselves between the White House and the national military command structure so they would be sure to know of any command that President Nixon might have given during that summer to our military to take action here or there or the other place. SCHOENBAUM: I wonder, though, if they can actually constitutionally do that? I mean, if the President gives an order and--maybe as a practical matter they can do that. But if the President gives an order, it would seem-- DEAN RUSK: Well, I regret that I am not able to be specific about this, but one order was given, not a nuclear order. One order was given which simply was not carried out. RICHARD RUSK: This was during this time, Pop? During the Watergate Crisis? DEAN RUSK: Yeah. SCHOENBAUM: Can you elaborate? DEAN RUSK: I can' ; t specify. RICHARD RUSK: Now didn' ; t you call [Henry Alfred] Kissinger and bring this concern of yours up? DEAN RUSK: Well, I mentioned it to Kissinger, yes. SCHOENBAUM: Do you know they interposed themselves? DEAN RUSK: Well, you just ensure that you know which messages flow between the White House and the national military command center. That' ; s not hard. RICHARD RUSK: Did you propose to them specifically how they could-- DEAN RUSK: No. No. No. RICHARD RUSK: He assured you that it had already been done? DEAN RUSK: You see, we have talked at times about the psychotic pilot, and a lot of safeguards have been set up to take care of that problem. But if we find a President who is in an unstable situation, then there are ways by which that will be guarded against. RICHARD RUSK: You' ; re convinced of that? DEAN RUSK: Oh, yeah. RICHARD RUSK: Do you know what they are? DEAN RUSK: Yes, but I' ; m not going to put them on this tape. RICHARD RUSK: Is it security classified? Those procedures? DEAN RUSK: Well, it' ; s super security classified. SCHOENBAUM: Did Kissinger tell you that there was an order? DEAN RUSK: I' ; m not going to get into any of this stuff. SCHOENBAUM: (laughs) Nice try Tom! [break in recording] RICHARD RUSK: Watergate tended to confirm everything you had always felt about the American constitutional system. DEAN RUSK: Oh, I think it demonstrated that there' ; s enormous strength in our constitutional system. To go through that episode and really almost come out at the other end without missing a step. It was really a very impressive experience. Oddly enough, the international reaction to the whole Nixon experience and Watergate was largely, " ; What' ; s all the shooting about?" ; because that kind of thing is more or less taken for granted in so many other political systems--(laughs) RICHARD RUSK: The Soviets were flabbergasted that Richard Nixon was thrown out of office. DEAN RUSK: I have speculated a little bit about how other Presidents would have handled this Watergate thing. For example, I think President Kennedy would have--Well President [Harry S.] Truman would have fired somebody on the White House staff and told the Congress to go to hell and that would have been the end of it. President Kennedy would have gotten on television and told what happened and told people that this would never happen again and give them his smile and that would be the end of it. President Johnson was much too astute a politician to have let himself get into that position to begin with. But Nixon got trapped by some of his own qualities. RICHARD RUSK: Was that the most serious constitutional crisis of your lifetime in our society? DEAN RUSK: Oh, I think so. Yeah. Yeah. RICHARD RUSK: At Runnymede you showed up in England representing Lyndon Johnson at the ceremony for John Kennedy. You refer to this a great deal and you give out copies of your Runnymede speech as having particular meaning. DEAN RUSK: Yes. One of the really highlights of my life was a privilege I had in 1965 to go to Runnymede, the field of Magna Carta, and there receive from Her Majesty the Queen [Elizabeth II Alexandra Mary] an acre of land at Runnymede as a gift from the British people to the American people in memory of John F. Kennedy. It was just right. Kennedy would have deeply appreciated that because that would be the kind of thing that would greatly appeal to him. And I made a little speech there and I have copies of that. And I have sent them round to a good many people including people who hold celebrity auctions. Instead of a necktie, I send them an autographed copy of those remarks. But that was one of the events of my life that I have always greatly cherished. SCHOENBAUM: Did you spend any time directly with the Queen? Did she make any remarks? DEAN RUSK: Well, she made a little speech. She made a little speech and the Prime Minister made a speech and [James] Harold Wilson, the former Prime Minister ; Harold Macmillan made a little speech. But it was just a perfect occasion. RICHARD RUSK: Pop, you do a better job than certainly most private citizens and probably most officials in relating our American experience to that British experience and articulating the debts that we owe to their traditions and everything they were able to achieve. Did that win you any particular dividends as far as the British were concerned? DEAN RUSK: No. I commented on that. You see, we and Britain, from a constitutional point of view, have a common heritage which began to take separate ways in 1776. But before that their history and our history was the same. So their Magna Carta, their Petition of Rights, the Habeas Corpus Act, their Bill of Rights are part of our own Constitutional history. And, as a matter of fact, as everybody who studies it know, up until very late in the process our founding fathers were trying to establish the rights of Englishmen on these shores. And it was not until very late in the game that they decided they had to go for independence. I' ; m rather moved by noting that if you look at the one hundred fifty-nine members of the United Nations today sitting there in that General Assembly, about eighty of those independent nations emerged out of some relationship to the British political system. It' ; s a great moving experience. RICHARD RUSK: You studied [William] Holdsworth' ; s History of the Common Law? Was that when you worked for Augustus [M.] Roan? DEAN RUSK: No. No. I did that one summer when I was at Oxford. It' ; s about a twelve-volume history, and I must say I was a bit bored by some of those old common law forms of action. But-- RICHARD RUSK: You read through the whole works? DEAN RUSK: Yeah. Great events back there. Some of these old common law judges, at the risk of their own lives over against the King or even the Parliament, would put their arms around a prisoner at the bar and say, " ; You can' ; t do this to this man." ; That' ; s where some of our great ideas of liberty came from. RICHARD RUSK: Was that a course requirement for you or something you did? DEAN RUSK: No. I just did it. This is metaphorical but what we have done, beginning in Britain, we have transformed the old common law notion that the King can do no wrong into the notion that if it is wrong, the King must not be permitted to do it. And that' ; s a great thing. RICHARD RUSK: Hey, that' ; s good, Pop. Thank you. SCHOENBAUM: By the way, Holdsworth was the-- [break in recording] DEAN RUSK: --my politics tutor at Oxford, W.C. Costin, made some slighting reference to the charge that the Justices of our Supreme Court are political in origin. And so I went off and did a quick thumbnail biography of over a period of about two hundred years of the Law Lords of Great Britain who make up their Supreme Court. RICHARD RUSK: How quick a study was that? DEAN RUSK: It didn' ; t take all that long if you look at things like Who' ; s Who and things like that. And I found that ninety percent of their Law Lords came up through political experience. They had been members of the cabinet ; they had been law officers of the government of the day and things like that. And I took this back to W.C. Costin and he was flabbergasted because by the time I was there, they had prided themselves on the professional character of their judges. It wasn' ; t true of the Law Lords. Well, I' ; ll see you fellows. [break in recording] DEAN RUSK: --1968 President Lyndon Johnson called me in and said that he was going to nominate me to the Supreme Court. Well I must say I was flabbergasted by that because I had not completed my law degree ; I had never practiced law or sat on a bench. I pointed that out to him. He said, " ; The Constitution does not require that you be a lawyer." ; Which is correct. And I said, " ; But I couldn' ; t get confirmed by the Senate." ; He said, " ; Oh yes, you could. I talked to Dick [Richard Brevard] Russell [Jr.] the other day and he said you' ; d be confirmed very quickly." ; So I finally said to him, " ; Mr. President, I very much appreciate the generosity of spirit which caused you to make this suggestion, but as your adviser I would have to advise you strongly against it and as the prospective nominee I would have to tell you I could not possibly accept it." ; RICHARD RUSK: Why did you turn that down? DEAN RUSK: Well I didn' ; t want to--A lot of reasons. But I didn' ; t want to be the first non-lawyer nominee to the Supreme Court. The ABA [American Bar Association] undoubtedly would have opposed it. There' ; d have been all sorts of hullabaloo in the Senate even if the votes might have been there. I don' ; t know whether they would have been or not. RICHARD RUSK: That' ; s funny. You could have slipped out for a year and a half and picked up your law degree. DEAN RUSK: But had that gone forward it would have failed anyhow because my name would have gone along with Abe Fortas' ; nomination to be Chief Justice. As you know, that failed, and the Senate simply held those nominations over until Nixon became President. So that would have failed. But that was just a little illustration of the generosity of Lyndon Johnson. But it was a very bad idea. RICHARD RUSK: Would you have enjoyed a role on the Supreme Court? DEAN RUSK: No. RICHARD RUSK: You don' ; t think so? DEAN RUSK: No. RICHARD RUSK: Why? DEAN RUSK: Oh, it' ; s just not my cup of tea. RICHARD RUSK: Well, okay. END OF SIDE 2 Resources may be used under the guidelines described by the U.S. Copyright Office in Section 107, Title 17, United States Code (Fair use). Parties interested in production or commercial use of the resources should contact the Russell Library for a fee schedule. video 0 RBRL214DROH-RuskQQQQ.xml RBRL214DROH-RuskQQQQ.xml http://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL214DROH/findingaid
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Rusk QQQQ, Dean Rusk interviewed by Richard Rusk and Thomas Schoenbaum, Part 2, circa 1985
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Richard Rusk
Thomas Schoenbaum
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oral histories
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Dean Rusk discusses U.S. Constitutional Law, the diplomatic and consular service, and the health, staff and term of office of U.S. Presidents. <br /><br />This interview is a continuation of <a href="http://georgiaoralhistory.libs.uga.edu/RBRL214DROH/RBRL214DROH-RuskPPPP">Rusk PPPP</a>.
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Dean Rusk Oral History Collection
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United States--Officials and employees
Politics and Public Policy
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The collection consists of 172 oral history interviews with Dean Rusk and his colleagues between 1984-1989. Includes audiotapes and transcriptions documenting Rusk's life from early childhood in the 1910's through his teaching career in the 1980's. The interviews contain information on Rusk's service as U.S. Under Secretary and Secretary of State during the administrations of Presidents Truman, Kennedy, and Johnson and his involvement in foreign relations including the Korean War, the Cuban Missile Crisis, and the Vietnam War. The interviews also document his position as president of the Rockefeller Foundation in the 1950s.<br /><br /><a href="http://georgiaoralhistory.libs.uga.edu/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=&range=&collection=14&type=&tags=OHMS&featured=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">View all OHMS indexed interviews in this collection here.</a>
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Richard Geary Rusk
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1984-1989
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RBRL214DROH
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United States
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5.3 Rusk U, Interview with Dean Rusk, January 3, 1985 RBRL214DROH-RuskU RBRL214DROH Dean Rusk Oral History Collection Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies, University of Georgia Dean Rusk Richard Rusk Thomas Schoenbaum Loch Johnson 1:|13(7)|27(5)|39(5)|53(3)|64(1)|76(5)|87(1)|100(4)|109(12)|122(2)|135(8)|149(4)|160(15)|173(11)|185(16)|200(11)|211(17)|226(2)|238(6)|254(13)|263(10)|273(8)|283(1)|295(1)|306(7)|315(9)|327(3)|339(2)|354(11)|366(1)|378(8)|387(9)|400(9)|412(11)|421(10)|433(9)|446(6)|469(13)|480(9)|492(4)|511(4)|519(3)|535(11)|545(10)|560(14)|571(5)|593(11)|606(4)|620(10)|630(14)|641(5)|650(11)|660(13)|675(3)|690(8)|699(2)|715(5)|722(2)|736(6)|748(2)|760(7)|776(3)|788(14)|803(4)|813(8)|823(11)|838(1)|847(7)|862(4)|881(10)|891(10)|902(4)|913(13)|925(3)|934(11)|946(11)|964(1)|972(13)|983(10)|994(9)|1009(2)|1021(5)|1034(3)|1044(6)|1055(10)|1068(6)|1084(4)|1105(9)|1120(5)|1137(2)|1150(5)|1158(9)|1168(14)|1181(2) 0 Kaltura audio < ; iframe id=" ; kaltura_player" ; src=" ; https://cdnapisec.kaltura.com/p/1727411/sp/172741100/embedIframeJs/uiconf_id/26879422/partner_id/1727411?iframeembed=true& ; playerId=kaltura_player& ; entry_id=1_wdhwbtam& ; flashvars[localizationCode]=en& ; amp ; flashvars[leadWithHTML5]=true& ; amp ; flashvars[sideBarContainer.plugin]=true& ; amp ; flashvars[sideBarContainer.position]=left& ; amp ; flashvars[sideBarContainer.clickToClose]=true& ; amp ; flashvars[chapters.plugin]=true& ; amp ; flashvars[chapters.layout]=vertical& ; amp ; flashvars[chapters.thumbnailRotator]=false& ; amp ; flashvars[streamSelector.plugin]=true& ; amp ; flashvars[EmbedPlayer.SpinnerTarget]=videoHolder& ; amp ; flashvars[dualScreen.plugin]=true& ; amp ; & ; wid=1_ak1eygvk" ; width=" ; 400" ; height=" ; 285" ; allowfullscreen webkitallowfullscreen mozAllowFullScreen frameborder=" ; 0" ; > ; < ; /iframe> ; English 20 Separation of Powers / Complexity of U.S. government I've noticed reading back through some of these transcripts that some of our best ones have been those where you more or less start off and open with your remarks and we more or less stay out of the picture. Rusk begins the interview with some opinions of the American political system. He talks about how the complexity of the U.S. government makes it difficult to explain the political system to foreigners. American Chief Justices ; Andrei Gromyko ; balance of power ; Congressional committees ; Earl Warren ; Foreign Relations Committee ; Henry Kissinger ; Senate appropriations ; separation of powers ; U.S. House of Representatives ; U.S. Secretary of State ; U.S. Senate 17 214 Relationship between State Department and Congress How much of your time? Rusk discusses the nature of the relationship between different branches of government, particularly his relationship with members of Congress. He talks about the time and effort required to nurture this relationship, including preparing for committee hearings, offering to help with constituent issues, and attending " ; breakfast club" ; meetings. Congressional Breakfast Clubs ; Congressional committees ; Congressional hearings ; Congressional mail ; Congressional rules ; Congressional staff ; Congressional subcommittees ; Executive Branch ; foreign aid ; government communications ; House of Representatives Foreign Affairs Committee ; J. William Fulbright ; Jimmy Carter ; Lyndon B. Johnson ; Senate Foreign Affairs Committee ; State department and Congress ; The Vietnam War 17 790 Weekly House of Representatives meeting There are some things that can be useful devices. Rusk discusses informal meetings of the House of Representatives, where members of the State Department would brief congressmen on foreign affairs issues. American foreign policy ; Arthur H. Vendenberg ; corporations ; corporations and government ; Everett Dirksen ; Hubert Humphrey ; John F. Kennedy ; Lyndon B. Johnson ; Richard B. Russell ; Robert S. Kerr ; U.S. Cabinet ; U.S. House of Representatives ; U.S. House of Representatives Foreign Affairs Committee ; U.S. Senate ; U.S. Senate Foreign Affairs Committee 17 1162 Workings of U.S. Senate / Funding for foreign aid Well the Senate is a rather different body than the House. Rusk discusses the difficulties of working with the Senate, including working with Senators with presidential aspirations and trying to discern the views of 100 members into a single negotiating standpoint. He also discusses the " ; whales" ; of the Senate--men who could deliver votes and were strong leaders. He also talks about the difficulty of getting appropriations for foreign aid. Foreign Affairs Committee ; Johnson ; Kennedy ; Richard B. Russell ; U.S. Senate 17 1763 State department budgets / Communicating with Congress during Cuban Missile Crisis and Gulf of Tonkin incident Would you argue that those thirty two trips represented an unreasonable surcharge on your time? Rusk discusses preparing for Congressional appropriations hearings by becoming very familiar with the budgets of various offices. He talks about various money-saving measures, including central files and getting rid of individual water bottles. Rusk also discusses the White House's strategy for communicating with Congress during the Cuban Missile Crisis, specifically the idea of a " ; consultations" ; with Congress. He compares the communication during the Cuban Missile Crisis with the communication during the Gulf of Tonkin incident in Vietnam. Bay of Pigs ; Congressional budgeting ; Cuban Missile Crisis ; Dean Acheson ; Gulf of Tonkin ; Harry S. Truman ; J. William Fulbright ; John F. Kennedy ; Lyndon B. Johnson ; nuclear war ; nuclear weapons ; Richard B. Russell Jr. ; Robert Taft ; U.S. Congress ; U.S. Congressional hearings ; U.S. Congressional meetings ; UN Security Council ; United Nations ; zero-based budgeting 17 2551 War Powers Act Pop, Loch Johnson's question relates to this paradox Rusk discusses the powers of the executive branch and the idea of an " ; Imperial Presidency" ; during the Johnson years. He discusses his opinions on the constitutionality of and the evolution of the War Powers Act and the role of the Vietnam War in its creation. He talks about different ways of communicating with Congress about executive branch initiatives. Barry Goldwater ; Clifford P. Case ; concurrent resolutions ; Everett Dirksen ; Gulf of Tonkin Resolution ; J. William Fulbright ; John Sherman Cooper ; John William McCormack ; joint resolutions ; Loch Johnson ; Lyndon B. Johnson ; Mike Mansfield ; Nonproliferation Treaty ; Nuclear Test Ban Treaty ; Organization of American States ; Richard B. Russell Jr. ; Senate Foreign Relations Committee ; U.S. Congress ; United Nations ; Vietnam War ; War Powers Resolution ; Wayne Lyman Morse ; Ways and Means Committee ; Wilbur Mills 17 3401 The Vietnam War, Congress, and declaration of war With that in mind, did you folks consider seriously a declaration of war at any point in the Vietnam situation? Rusk talks about the politics behind making a formal declaration of war, or not. He discusses the Gulf of Tonkin resolution and whether or not the presidency had the authorization to escalate the war in Vietnam. Ascension Island ; Congo Crisis ; Congressional committees ; Congressional war power ; Cuban Missile Crisis ; declaration of war ; formal declaration of war ; General Accounting Office ; Gulf of Tonkin Resolution ; House Foreign Affairs Committee ; House Ways and Means Committee ; J. William Fulbright ; John F. Kennedy ; Joint Atomic Energy Committee ; Jomo Kenyatta ; Julius Nyerere ; Lyndon B. Johnson ; Nikita Khrushchev ; Pentagon Papers ; Robert F. Kennedy ; Senate Finance Committee ; Senate Foreign Relations Committee ; Simba Rebellion ; war power 17 5022 Executive power We tend to place a lot of faith in the presidency as an institution and give it a lot of power in foreign affairs. Do you think basically the American people, with the exception of the problems we got into in Vietnam and some of these other issues, do you think basically they’re comfortable with the Executive being dominant in these matters? Rusk debates the dominance of the executive branch of government in the United States. He also discusses specific instances of executive power as asserted by John F. Kennedy during his administration, further exploring the role of Presidents in making some of the decisions that later come to define generations of American history. Anti-Communism ; Captive Nations Resolution ; Cold War ; Congress and the President ; Congressional voting ; Dean Acheson ; executive branch ; General Agreement on Tariffs and Trades ; George F. Kennan ; Great White Fleet ; Harry S. Truman ; Howard Alexander Smith ; Idel Ural ; J. William Fulbright ; John F. Kennedy ; John Foster Dulles ; Judiciary Committee ; Kennedy Round ; Louisiana Purchase ; Mike Mansfield ; Napoleon Bonaparte ; Panama Canal ; Ronald Reagan ; Southeast Asia Treaty Organization ; Soviet Union ; Star Wars ; Strategic Defense Initiative ; The Marshall Plan ; Theodore Roosevelt ; Trade Expansion Act ; U.S. foreign aid ; U.S. foreign policy ; U.S. government ; U.S. tariff negotiations ; United States House Committee on Ways and Means ; United States House of Representatives ; United States Navy ; USSR ; Walter Lippmann ; Wilbur Mills 17 Oral History RICHARD RUSK: --Congressional relations and his experience in the Congress, and the making of foreign affairs. Loch Johnson is with us today. In addition to Tom and Rich Rusk. This is January 3, 1985. And Pop, I have noticed reading back through some of these transcripts that some of our best ones have been those where you start off and open with your remarks and we more or less stay out of the picture. DEAN RUSK: Perhaps we ought to begin with a few simplicities. The American constitutional and political system is probably the most complicated such system in the world, at least since the Dalai Lama was driven out of Tibet by the Chinese. I think his might have been more complicated, deliberately made complicated by the founding fathers to put restraints upon the exercise of power. The late Chief Justice Earl Warren was here at our Law School shortly before his death, and on that occasion said that if each branch of the federal government were to pursue its own constitutional powers to the end of the trail, our system simply could not function. It would freeze up like an engine without oil. Impasse is the overhanging threat in our constitutional system. Now, one consequence of this complexity is, by the way, that it is almost impossible for foreigners to understand it. And many Americans don' ; t understand it. We spend a lot of time with representatives of other countries trying to give them elementary education about the nature of our constitutional system. I myself have spent a good deal of time with Mr. [Andrei A.] Gromyko and Ambassador [Anatoly] Dobrynin on just that matter. Another consequence of complexity is that those who hold positions of responsibility within the system, either by election or by appointment, have to spend an enormous amount of time just to make the system work. The separation of powers is a very important concept in our Constitution, but that is only one side of the coin. The other side of the same coin is the constitutional necessity for comity among the branches of government, for cooperation among the branches of government. Our Constitution forces us to seek a consensus in order that the government can function and I personally think that this is a wholesome influence. But it is always there. Now in the case of a Secretary of State, he has a five-foot shelf of statutory law organizing his department and setting many of the main lines of policy which he is expected to pursue, and he must take those seriously. Almost everything that is done in the foreign policy field of any importance requires legislation, or appropriations, or both, and that means action by the Congress. So a Secretary of State has to be prepared to spend a great deal of time with the Congress. Henry [Alfred] Kissinger called me while he was Secretary and said he had looked into the time spent by Secretaries of State with the Congress and that I turned out to be the champion. Well, that doesn' ; t surprise me because I did spend a lot of time. RICHARD RUSK: How much of your time? DEAN RUSK: Well, my appointment books could give you a basis for some figure on that, but let me indicate how this works. Your most important contacts are with committees and subcommittees of Congress in hearings: either private hearings or in public hearings. Now, I went to those committees literally hundreds of times during my eight years. And every time you go you have to take another two or three days ahead of time to be prepared because in the Congress there is no rule of relevance which limits members to questions on particular fields. They can throw at you a question on any subject whatever. So you have got to go to school for two or three days before you go down to meet those committees. So it is a time-consuming activity. Then, there is the business of meeting with the individual senators and congressmen from time to time. Those of particular importance to you are the chairman and principal minority member of the Senate and House Foreign Relations committees. But also the chairmen of your appropriations subcommittees come to be extraordinarily important people to you because they are the ones who basically control your budget. So you spend a good deal of time with them both before and after hearings on the budget. But then there are breakfast clubs of all sorts among the Congress. All those who came in in a particular year sometimes form a breakfast club and give themselves a nickname of some sort. There are special meetings called with the leadership on Capitol Hill, when a particular problem arises and they want some prompt information and a chance to give some reaction. Then there are other things you do as a matter of courtesy. I tried to have a three-day turnaround time on congressional mail to give that top priority because those fellows are hounded by their constituencies and it seemed to me that the State Department ought to do what it could to help them serve those constituencies. Now very often those answers to that congressional mail cannot be very decisive or helpful because the situation simply doesn' ; t permit it. I would go down fairly frequently and join a congressman or a senator in a taped radio or television show which he would send back to his constituency. Some of them did that at least once a week. I would do that on a non-partisan basis - a bipartisan basis. I would occasionally go with a particular senator or congressman to his own state or district to make a speech. And I did that, again, on a non-partisan basis. I bumped into one thing which I think made some brownie points for me on Capitol Hill. Congressmen and senators occasionally find themselves with a bunch of twenty-five or thirty of their constituents who come to town as a group and they don' ; t know what to do with them. So I would, on quite a number of occasions, tell these senators and congressmen to send them down to look at the State Department and visit with me for forty-five minutes or so. I enjoyed that, the senators and congressman were grateful, and the constituents were quite set up if they had a chance to meet the Secretary of State. SCHOENBAUM: Do you remember some specific incidents of that happening? That' ; s a very kind gesture. DEAN RUSK: I would have to check with my appointment books. One thing that is important, that is the communication between the two branches of government. This is absolutely indispensable, and yet it is not easy. The pressures of time on senators and congressmen are hard to believe. The general public has no idea how tough a job it is to be a senator or congressman. You might have 150 desk officers following events in all parts of the world, each one of them, one per country, almost twenty-four hours a day. And there is just no way that you can get the time from senators and congressmen to give them an in-depth understanding of everything that is going on in the world. Senators and congressmen often find it difficult to find time to get to committee meetings. Chairman [James William] Fulbright and I used to talk to each other about this problem. Of course, one way to solve it was to be on television, then they all turned up: half of them with pancake on all ready for the show. But this pressure of time complicates the communication business. I tried never to turn down any invitation to come to Capitol Hill in any way, shape, or form. On one occasion in 1967 President Lyndon [Baines] Johnson did not want me to go on a public television hearing on Vietnam because of the particular stage of some negotiations. RICHARD RUSK: Could you spell that out in a little more detail--why he didn' ; t want you to? DEAN RUSK: Well, Fulbright wanted a public hearing on Vietnam in 1967 and I offered to go down in a private meeting with the committee, but he didn' ; t want that. He wanted a televised public meeting. Well, Lyndon Johnson did not want me to go because there were some negotiations going on at the time with those in contact with Hanoi and he just thought it was bad timing and bad business to have a public television row over Vietnam right at that particular moment. And he was agreeable for me to go in a private session, but Fulbright didn' ; t want that. However, in the middle of that delaying tactic that I was using, both Fulbright and I knew that if we wanted a foreign aid bill, that I would have to come down there in public session to talk about foreign aid. So, eventually that moment arrived and he had me. And although the hearing was supposed to be about foreign aid, we didn' ; t talk about foreign aid, we talked about Vietnam. RICHARD RUSK: Was that the two-day hearing. DEAN RUSK: That' ; s right: a two-day hearing. But this business of consultation: I would have to say that the practice is that the initiative rests with the executive branch: with the President and the Cabinet officers. During my eight years you may be astonished to hear me say that I can remember only four or five times when a senator or a congressman would call me on the phone and say, " ; Look, the next time you' ; re down here, drop by my office," ; or " ; Let me come by to see you on the way home. I want to talk to you about something or other." ; Very, very rarely do they take the initiative in consultation. RICHARD RUSK: Ever speculate on the reasons why? DEAN RUSK: Well, they are so crowded. And also I think one would have to say that they were courteous about the time of the Secretary of State and they didn' ; t press me too hard because they knew that I too was very busy. But the responsibility for the initiative in consultation almost always rests with the executive branch. Now, how that will be affected by the extraordinary increase in congressional staff is something else, because now they have as many staff people as they have certain bureaucratic syndromes set in with respect to such staff. Each guy has got to earn his own brownie points in the year to justify his job and things of that sort. During the Carter administration I read a newspaper article saying that the Congressional Relations office of the White House was getting 1500 congressional calls every day. Now, in the first place, in my time, ninety-five percent of those calls would have gone to the departments. So I think a part of this was, these weren' ; t senators and congressmen calling, most of those calls were staff people. And these were staff people who were going to be able to say to their boss, " ; Oh yes, I talked to the White House about this today." ; And that tends to multiply that kind of a problem. But there are some things which can be useful devices. In the mid-sixties we began a weekly meeting in the House of Representatives every Wednesday morning at 9:00 o' ; clock to which every member of the House of Representatives was invited. And there would go to that meeting some senior officer of the Department of State to talk about some particular aspect of foreign policy. JOHNSON: Did you ever go to that meeting? DEAN RUSK: I went to it several times and the attendance would range from sixty or seventy to 350, depending upon who was coming and what the subject was. Well, any congressman who attended those meetings regularly would come out at the end of the year with a far broader and deeper understanding of what was going on in the world than would Members of Parliament get from question time in the House of Commons. I thought it was an excellent device and the congressmen themselves very much appreciated it. I remember when I went to, what was obvious to everybody, my last such meeting. I think it might have been in January 1969. I remember that at the end of the meeting a Republican congress man stood up and moved an ovation to me for having set up those meetings and coming myself several times. But it tended to peter out a bit later. I understand they are trying now to revive it in some fashion. JOHNSON: Well, I was curious why this never happened in the Senate? DEAN RUSK: Well, at the time we started these meetings in the House we offered them to the Senate, but there were members of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee who did not want backbench Senators to get that much involved with foreign policy. So they turned it down in the Senate. But the House Foreign Affairs Committee welcomed it. I gather at the present time, in 1984-85, that there is something like that for senators. I understand that maybe forty, fifty or sixty of them will gather once a month or so and talk about some of these things. JOHNSON: Was the staff invited to the House meetings? DEAN RUSK: No. Staff was not invited. My guess is that, given the number of staff now, the rooms couldn' ; t accommodate them. JOHNSON: What did you do when it came to sensitive matters? DEAN RUSK: Well, we found that, both in discussions with the House Foreign Affairs Committee and these weekly meetings with the House of Representatives, that you could be very candid and very frank because the House itself had established a pretty strong tradition against leaking. I don' ; t recall a single indiscrete leak that came out of those Wednesday morning meetings. I think there was one occasion when there was what appeared to be a leak out of the House Foreign Affairs Committee. And they just gave that member hell for having broken their tradition. The House is much more close-lipped on confidential information than is the Senate, and so I was entirely comfortable about it. Now in such briefings it is important to have people who are senior enough to be able to be candid. If you send people down who are too junior, they' ; ll be too nervous about what they ought to say and what they ought not to say. But senior people can be entirely candid because they are the ones who decide what is to be said or not, and so that makes some difference. JOHNSON: Would you say a word on the format? Was it a Q& ; A session? DEAN RUSK: In these Wednesday morning meetings, usually the guest would begin with a very few rather short summary remarks about the particular problem or area, and then they would go fairly promptly into questions and he would develop his further points in answer to questions. JOHNSON: Did you have a sense of what members bothered to come to these meetings? Were they members of the Foreign Affairs Committee? DEAN RUSK: I would say the Foreign Affairs Committee typically, not so much the appropriation committees. But if you were to look over a list of the House of Representatives membership with any knowledge of its membership, you could pretty well predict who would be at these meetings: the more active and lively and those most interested in foreign affairs. I would think that there would be about fifty or sixty regulars and then there would be added on others depending on the subject matter. But we met in the large room of the House Foreign Affairs Committee and they served doughnuts and coffee. And it was a good occasion. RICHARD RUSK: Did that continue throughout the late sixties with the tension over Vietnam? DEAN RUSK: As I say, they petered out for reasons I am not sure of during the Nixon, Ford, and Carter years. But there is some discussion now about trying to revive it. RICHARD RUSK: As a result of these meetings perhaps the greater degree of rapport you had with the House--did you have greater success with the House than the Senate with respect to foreign policy issues? DEAN RUSK: Well, the Senate is a rather different body than the House. You have a hundred sovereign senators, who sometimes act like a hundred Presidents in Congress assembled. JOHNSON: Or their own Secretaries of State! DEAN RUSK: And their own Secretaries of State. And remember, you usually have in the Senate a number of senators who are very grumpy because they didn' ; t get to be President. And you have another group who would give their kidneys to get to be President. And so this reduces the number of people who concentrate on being good senators. But in terms of experience and standing back home and things of that sort, the Senate is a somewhat different body than the House. But, again, it' ; s time. During the 80th Congress, which was a Republican Congress and Arthur [Hendrick] Vandenberg was Chairman of the Senate Relations Committee, every report that came out of the Foreign Relations Committee, every bill, every report, with one trivial exception, came out unanimously from the Committee. Now that is because Arthur Vandenberg somehow was able to make members come to meetings, sit there, and hammer out a committee view. Now from the executive branch point of view, this was great. Because you knew where you were, you had someone with whom to negotiate, you had a known position to deal with, and that greatly facilitated consultation between the two branches. Now, when that kind of thing does not happen and you' ; ve got senators all over the place, you not only have to consult with a lot more senators, but you also have to put their views together in a jigsaw puzzle and try to figure out for yourself where the Senate comes out at the end of the day. There are usually some senators and congressmen who understand the fundamental constitutional principle, and that is that the powers given to the Congress under the Constitution are given to the Congress as a corporate body. They are not given to individual senators and congressmen. And if you are lucky there are always some members around who understand the necessity for the Senate to act as a corporate body at the end of the day. I am thinking of Arthur Vandenberg, Richard [Brevard] Russell [Jr.], Lyndon Johnson as Senate Majority Leader, Everett [McKinley] Dirksen. Those are the kind of people that Lyndon Johnson used to call the whales. But, you see, with 535 members of Congress, it is almost impossible to consult with 535 of them. So from the executive branch point of view, you need somebody in the Congress with whom to talk. Now this will change in a Congress from time to time. Back in the early sixties we could talk to four senators: Richard Russell of Georgia, Bob [Robert Samuel] Kerr of Oklahoma, Hubert [Horatio] Humphrey of Minnesota, and Everett Dirksen of Illinois, then go over to the House side and talk with Speaker Sam [Taliaferro] Rayburn. And we knew what the Congress would do or would not do because they could tell us, possibly because they could tell the Congress. I mean, Dick Russell could deliver twenty-five votes in the Senate on any subject whatever. But now the young turks of a later generation broke up that kind of leadership: broke up the whale system. And you don' ; t have individuals who can speak for the Congress except after a formal vote, and that complicates the consultative process. By and large, though, foreign policy in this postwar period has been largely bipartisan in character, and that facilitates consultation. In all of these hundreds of meetings with committees and subcommittees of the Congress that I attended, on no single occasion did I ever see differences of view turn on party lines: Republicans against Democrats. Now there were differences cutting across party lines because a lot of these things are very complicated, requiring on-balance, razor edge judgments on which honest men and women can disagree. But I never saw those differences turn on party lines. So that by and large, at least in between Presidential elections, foreign policy has been handled largely on a bipartisan basis. Now let' ; s put it another way. On every working day throughout the year something like three thousand cables will go out of the Department of State to our posts and to governments all over the world. Just getting on with the day' ; s business is an enormous mass of business. I have here somewhere a typical day' ; s breakdown of what those three thousand cables are about. Maybe I can put my fingers on them. But my guess is that only three or four of those cables on any given day would require any kind of congressional consultation. A lot of it is simply carrying out the law which the Congress has already put on the books, or administering treaties that have already been ratified. So there is a mass of foreign policy action taken day by day that does not interest the Congress, does not complicate relations with Congress, on which the Congress does not have to take any fresh action. My guess is that if you spread these three thousand cables before the Congress on any typical day, that the overwhelming majority of the Congress would approve more than ninety-five percent of those cables. It is just getting on with the day' ; s work arising from the state of our law, and the kind of people we are, and the shape of the world. Now there are times when people in the executive branch don' ; t spend enough time and care on their relations with Congress. Both President [John Fitzgerald] Kennedy and particularly President Johnson, expected their cabinet officers to take primary responsibility for their own legislation in the Congress and not to expect the President to put all this through for them. SCHOENBAUM: Were there things though that you considered to be so important to the administration, and that you considered to be paramount, and that you had discussions with Kennedy or Johnson on it: being things that the President should get directly involved? DEAN RUSK: Well, most of the proposed legislation would go down from the President to the Congress. He would usually send along a letter to him from the Cabinet Officer--from me, for example--setting forth the reasons for the need for legislation and so forth, so that he would transmit proposed legislation to the Speaker and to the Vice President and then we would go on the congressional calendar somehow. For example, I appeared thirty-two times in eight years before committees of Congress on behalf of foreign aid. Each year you had to appear four times. During the authorization period you appeared before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee and House Foreign Affairs Committee, and then you appeared before the two appropriations committees when the time came to get your money. Well now, in connection with those thirty-two appearances, which is somewhat like pulling teeth getting money for foreign aid, I didn' ; t really get much help from either President Kennedy or President Johnson. They let me sink or swim on that and I am not even sure to this day what Lyndon Johnson' ; s real attitude was toward foreign aid. They just would not invest their own political capital in mean legislation which they thought they could somehow get along without doing. JOHNSON: Would you argue that those thirty-two trips were an unreasonable surcharge on your time? DEAN RUSK: Well it was a heck of a burden. But in my own case, since I started from a sort of a constitutional point of view I didn' ; t mind, because I realized that that was how the wheels turned over: that was how you made the system function. In the case of my own State Department appropriations, over a period of three to four weeks ahead of time before going down to Congress with them, I would hold hearings myself in my own office with heads of different parts of the State Department to be sure that I knew where every dollar in that budget was. Because the chairman of my appropriations subcommittee in the Congress, when he took my budget to the floor, would have to be able to answer any question from any direction about any dollar. And I thought that I at least ought to know as much about it as he ought to know when he got up on the floor to defend the budget. And I became very much attached to the idea of zero budgeting in the sense that if you follow every dollar in your budget proposals coming to you from the rest of the Department, you almost certainly will find situations of waste, duplication, things that ought to be corrected. I mean--One small example: I found when I was there that each officer of the Department seemed to want in his own personal office a complete file of all the things he was dealing with. This meant file cases and things like that. Well, I took steps to group these file arrangements for every, say, four or five officers in a particular area, working on a particular problem. So they could step two offices down the hall and get what they wanted out of a more or less semi-centralized file. Well, we saved thousands and thousands of feet of floor space that way and also stopped buying file cases for quite a while. RICHARD RUSK: Didn' ; t you have the same thing with water coolers? DEAN RUSK: Those water bottles, yes. The bureaucracy does not fight for power, they fight for the symbols of power such as a rug on the floor, a coffee table by your sofa, a flag in the corner, a water bottle on the table. They used to cut each other' ; s throats on these damn water bottles: vacuum water bottles of metal that sit there on a little tray. Well, I learned in one of these budget hearings that these darn water bottles cost the government about $82.00, or something like that. And I also knew that I could go down to Sears and buy one for $16.50. So you started putting pressure on water bottles. But the point I am making is that an enormous amount of work goes into your preparation for such hearings. Now I used to get a little annoyed because when I would get through my own budget presentation, then the committees would typically call all the Assistant Secretaries up one by one to talk about the work of their particular section and their own budget. And there were times when the Assistant Secretaries would not know where their own dollars were in their own budget. And that used to make me mad. And it obviously made the chairmen of the subcommittees mad. But we had a congressional relations staff there headed by an Assistant Secretary. I would have to get you the names of those. But they were a very busy group keeping in contact, visiting congressmen, preparing material requested by congressmen, handling congressional mail, and things like that. Our staff was relatively small in the Department compared to, say, the Pentagon staff for such a thing. RICHARD RUSK: Turning to an earlier question: just if you had to make a rough estimate how much of your time during these eight years was spent toward congressional relations, not only your testimony but getting ready for testimony, what would you say? DEAN RUSK: Well, it would be somewhere between a fourth and a third of your time. Put it all together, the preparation and everything else, it' ; s a major part of the job. I don' ; t want to appear too self-serving on this but I think President Kennedy and President Johnson both appreciated our relations with Congress. They got echoes from that from Capitol Hill a good deal from their own contacts with Capitol Hill and also we got our legislation. So they seemed to be satisfied with that. As a matter of fact, each of them spoke to me about that. JOHNSON: You know, there seems to be a paradox. One gets the impression that there is a lot of consultation going on (unintelligible), but then if you look at many of the major foreign policy decisions during your tenure, Congress apparently was uninformed on (unintelligible). DEAN RUSK: Bill Fulbright was informed on the Bay of Pigs and strongly opposed it. But at the time of the Cuban Missile Crisis, President Kennedy felt that he ought not to make public the presence of the missiles in Cuba until he was ready to announce at the same time what he was going to do about it. So we sat on that information for a full week. Then about two hours before he went on television for his famous speech on this subject, he called about thirty of the congressional leaders down to the Cabinet Room of the White House to tell them about the missiles and go over with them what he was planning to do. Now that was the first time those senators and congressmen had heard about the missiles, and the executive branch had had a week to think about it, and look at all the alternatives, and analyze it in great depth, and give President Kennedy a chance to come to his own decision. Well this was not consultation as I think of consultation. The only operating question before those senators and congressmen at that moment was, " ; Are you prepared to support your country in this moment of danger?" ; , which is not the right question to put to them. You see they had not had a chance to think about it, to talk to each other about it, and that sort of thing. So I think that is an example of consultation which is not consultation. JOHNSON: Do you think that was a mistake then? DEAN RUSK: Not necessarily. By the way, let me say that at that meeting with congressional leaders, despite the fact that Kennedy was moving to a major, major crisis, no member of Congress, senator or congressman, raised any question about whether Kennedy had the constitutional power to do what he was about to do without coming to Congress. As a matter of fact, as we left the room one Senator turned to me and said, " ; Thank God I am not the President of the United States." ; Now there may be times where the sheer gravity of the crisis will affect the allocation of constitutional responsibility. But no one at that meeting raised any question, so far as I know, later about Kennedy' ; s doing what he did at the time of the Cuban Missile Crisis without any action by the Congress. RICHARD RUSK: Did Kennedy strictly, simply inform the Congress as to what was going to happen or did he ask? DEAN RUSK: He told that what he was planning to do. RICHARD RUSK: Did he ask for an endorsement? DEAN RUSK: But he went around the table asking people for their comments. Senator Fulbright, Senator Russell both thought that we ought to begin with a strike against Cuba and not through the quarantine method. RICHARD RUSK: Did he ask for an endorsement? DEAN RUSK: Not by any formal vote or anything. But it was clear that when the meeting broke up that the senators and congressmen realized that we were all in this canoe together and that we would come through together or go down together. And they all wished him well, including Russell and Fulbright. SCHOENBAUM: What about Tonkin Gulf? How would you contrast the way that was handled with the way the Cuban Missile Crisis was handled? DEAN RUSK: Well, after the second incident in the Gulf of Tonkin--well, when the first incident occurred in the Gulf of Tonkin, we decided to ignore it on the grounds that this might be simply trigger-happy local commanders doing something but not a major political connection by North Vietnam. But when the second incident occurred, then that raised a more serious issue: namely that this might well have been, almost had to be, a political decision in Hanoi. [It] also raised the question and point that they were trying to drive us out of the Gulf of Tonkin which they were busily using to infiltrate people into South Vietnam. So President Johnson decided to retaliate against the bases from which these torpedo boats were coming. But he called the congressional leadership in and he went over with them the incidents in the Gulf of Tonkin and the retaliatory strikes. But then when that was all over, he turned to the experience that Truman had had with [Robert Alphonso] Taft at the time of Korea. I was present when Truman met with the congressional leaders about his intervention in Korea and it was clear at that meeting that everybody present thought that the President should go ahead on the basis of his own presidential powers, reinforced by resolutions of the U.N. [United Nations] Security Council and should not come to the Congress for a resolution on the subject. Well about three or four days later, Senator Taft, who had not been at that meeting because he was more or less the domestic man on the Republican side, got up on the Senate floor and said, " ; I approve of what President Truman is doing, but I strongly oppose his doing it without coming to the Congress." ; Lyndon Johnson remembered that very clearly. And when he first became President after the tragedy of November, 1963, he told us that if we were going to stay in Vietnam very long or to do more in Vietnam than we were doing, we would have to go to the Congress for a resolution. So Johnson went over this with the congressional leaders at the time of the Gulf of Tonkin as a matter separate from the actual incidents in the Gulf of Tonkin. And they urged him to come to the Congress with a resolution. They said, " ; Make it short and we will pass it promptly with an overwhelming vote." ; And the origin of the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution was really the Taft episode in Korea. SCHOENBAUM: And you say that that was consultation as opposed to the Cuban missile crisis? DEAN RUSK: Yes, I think this was consultation. RICHARD RUSK: Loch Johnson' ; s question relates to this paradox. Some observers of American politics have called the Johnson years the so-called " ; Imperial Presidency," ; in a situation where the administration led the country down certain paths without sufficient congressional consultation whatever. And yet you yourself had excellent relations with Congress, perhaps better than any Secretary before or since: had really gone all out to keep in close touch with Congress. How do we deal with this paradox? You probably don' ; t agree with half of it but that is the idea. DEAN RUSK: Well, let me make a comment on that. There is a lot of literature around on the increase in the powers of the President. There is much less on the extraordinary increase in the powers of Congress: the great expansion of the Interstate and Foreign Commerce Clause, the power to tax and spend, all the legislation that surrounds the Fourteenth Amendment, Civil Rights Legislation, and so forth. The founding fathers would turn over in their graves if they thought the Congress was telling us that we have to put men and women in the same gym classes at the University of Georgia. I mean, there is an extraordinary increase in the powers of Congress. They have bought through appropriations, they have bought away from the states a lot of powers that used to adhere to state governments by saying to the states, " ; If you will do it the way we are suggesting, we will give you some money for it." ; And the states have been yielding up their own powers. RICHARD RUSK: The Congress and the executive share a responsibility for this increased role in the Federal government. A lot of this was in response to-- DEAN RUSK: Yes, but what I am saying is that when people talk about an " ; imperial" ; President, they should also talk about an all-consuming Congress. SCHOENBAUM: Do you think that the War Powers Act would be something that you would have not liked to work with? DEAN RUSK: Well, the War Powers Act--and Loch Johnson may disagree with me on this. The War Powers Act was, in effect, an effort by the Congress to find its own alibi for Vietnam. I call your attention to the fact that Barry Goldwater got up in the early seventies on the Senate floor and said, " ; I am getting tired of all of this talk here about the President usurping his powers in regard to Vietnam, and acting without the Congress, and things of that sort." ; And he spelled out, chapter and verse, the involvement of the Congress in Vietnam up to its ears at all stages of the Vietnam business. One of my students here at the Law School once did a paper on " ; What did the executive branch have a right to believe was the view of the Congress at the various stages of the Vietnam affairs?" ; It is quite a revealing business. So the War Powers Act to me had uncertain ancestry, and there are certain sections of it that are clearly unconstitutional in my judgment. For example, the War Powers Act provides that under certain circumstances Congress can require the withdrawal of American forces by concurrent resolution. Now, concurrent resolutions do not go to the President for veto. RICHARD RUSK: What is a concurrent resolution? DEAN RUSK: That is a resolution of the Congress that it uses in its own administration and things of that sort. But concurrent resolutions, as contrasted with joint resolutions, do not go to the President for his signature or veto. And for the Congress to try to use a concurrent resolution to bring about a significant legal change is a deprivation of the President' ; s legislation role under Article 1 of the Constitution. So I think that is going to turn out to be just as unconstitutional as it can be. I' ; ve never lost any sleep over the War Powers Act because it is not going to mean anything when it is supposed to apply. Because if a crisis develops somewhere, God forbid, and a President has to go to the Congress for something like the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution, almost certainly there will be a simple clause put on at the end saying, " ; In carrying out the purposes of this act, the War Powers Resolution shall not apply." ; Because in the hoopty-do and the hoorah of the takeoff of the initial action, it is almost certain that Congress will adopt that. They have some pretty silly things in the War Powers Act. For example, the President-- END OF SIDE 1 BEGINNING OF SIDE 2 DEAN RUSK: One of the items on which the War Powers Act would have the President report fairly regularly to the Congress would be, " ; How long is this going to last?" ; Now what President can know that? Bear in mind, by the way, that the War Powers Act was passed over the President' ; s veto. In the case of the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution, paragraph 3 provided that the Congress could rescind that resolution by concurrent resolution. Well that was by agreement with the President. It is a very different thing to use a concurrent resolution against the wishes of the President instead of a joint resolution. RICHARD RUSK: The War Powers Act was passed by Congress for reasons more than simply trying to assign their guilt over Vietnam or their involvement with Vietnam. I mean, some of the reasons would include things like the administration getting us involved in foreign policy initiatives without going to Congress, using covert aid, getting us involved with police actions and thereby avoiding declarations of war. Surely there has been more impetus behind the passage of this War Powers Act than what you mentioned. Do you care to comment on some of those forces? DEAN RUSK: Well, that kind of thing has been going on since the beginning of the Republic. I forget now the exact number, but it depends on which ones you count. But over two hundred times when the President of the United States has used the armed forces of the United States without any declaration of war by Congress or prior authorization by Congress--Sometimes those authorizations come after the fact, but there is nothing new about this, it is one of the oldest constitutional problems we have had. JOHNSON: Apparently in 1954 President Eisenhower invited Richard Russell and Lyndon Johnson down to the White House to discuss what ought to be done about the pending defeat of the French in Vietnam, and Eisenhower said that he benefited greatly from the thoughts he got from Russell and Johnson. It seems to me that that is an example of our government working at its best: a real consultation between the two branches of government. That doesn' ; t seem to happen very often. DEAN RUSK: Well I suspect that it happens more than we know. For example, when we negotiated the Nuclear Test Ban Treaty, and started the talks on the Nonproliferation Treaty, we kept in the closest touch with the disarmament subcommittee of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. It always helps to do that because when the time comes for advice and consent on a treaty, you have Senators who are part of the whole process and who can get up on the Senate floor and urge their colleagues to give it advice and consent. When we negotiated the Kennedy Round of trade negotiations, we kept in the closest touch with Wilbur [Daigh] Mills, Chairman of the Ways and Means Committee, at all stages of those negotiations. And we got approval of the Kennedy Round by a very substantial vote in the Congress. And then you involve senators and congressmen directly in a good many international meetings. We always have either two senators or two congressmen on our delegation to the United Nations General Assembly every year. And that is a fine experience for them and it works very well. When I would go to meetings of the Organization of American States Foreign Ministers meetings, I would take two senators and two congressmen with me as a part of my delegation. Now senators and congressmen cannot act strictly as a member of an instructed delegation, so you have to give a little careful thought to that point. At the U.N., for example, we do not ask senators or congressmen who are members of the delegation to take questions, to represent us on questions to which they might disagree, but we work that out ahead of time. SCHOENBAUM: The one instance that stands out where there were problems with Congress is Vietnam, kind of after the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution and, of course, you mention the whale system and the great four senators who stood out in the early sixties. They were, as I remember, succeeded by people like [Michael Joseph] Mansfield, Fulbright, John Sherman Cooper, and in the House, Speaker [John W.] McCormack. Why could you--In retrospect, why couldn' ; t you keep--You kept the Congress with you in terms of votes, but these powerful senators were not kept in the fold, and probably not because of lack of consultation. What happened there in the relationship? DEAN RUSK: Well, I remember a Senate hearing along about 1966, Senator [Clifford Philip] Case of New Jersey had some rather critical views about Vietnam. And I turned to him and said, " ; Senator, put your views in a resolution and have it voted on. What we need to know is what the Congress thinks." ; And he didn' ; t like that suggestion very much. And in 1966 Wayne [Lyman] Morse put in a resolution to rescind the Tonkin Gulf Resolution. There was a motion to table his resolution. There were only five senators voting not to table his resolution, not to kill it. And that was as late as 1966. I think, in retrospect, we might have done something we did not do. We gave some thought to putting the question of Vietnam to the Congress once a year. We had the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution ; only two Senators voted against it. We gave some thought as to whether or not we should not hold their feet to the fire once a year so that we would have an annual expression of the views of the Congress. Well Lyndon Johnson talked about that with some of the congressional leaders and they urged him not to do it. They said, " ; You would get your resolution. It would pass, but with a somewhat diminished majority. Live with the resolution you got." ; RICHARD RUSK: Do you remember who advised him of that? DEAN RUSK: Oh I forget now. It might have been Mansfield and Dirsken, the two leaders, the Democrat and Republican. You see, there were all sorts of opportunities for the Congress to put riders on appropriations bills, all sorts of things if the Congress had changed its mind. But the record shows that the Congress did not change its mind until they rescinded the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution in 1971 or so. Now there were some congressional voices speaking. SCHOENBAUM: Of course, what would the executive have done if one of these resolutions had passed, even a relatively innocuous sounding resolution? DEAN RUSK: Well if it were simply a statement of the sense of the Congress, that' ; s one thing, but if it were embodied into a statute which was becoming law, it would have had the greatest of consequences, of course. You would have had to make an orderly withdrawal. You see, no President can maintain armed forces in action for any period of time without the support of the Congress and the American people. RICHARD RUSK: With that in mind, did you folks consider seriously a declaration of war at any point in the Vietnam situation? DEAN RUSK: I can' ; t remember a declaration of war since 1945. It may be that one or two Arab states declared war on Israel, I am not sure. But formal declarations of war have gone out of style. Now, I happen to think that that is a useful development because the formal declaration of war brings about a much more rigid situation, makes it more difficult to resolve it informally, as we did with Korea or the Berlin blockade or things like that. Furthermore, from the point of view of the Congress, a declaration of war has a profound effect upon the constitutional powers of the President, and so that would have been a major grant of authority to the President to do all sorts of things that we don' ; t expect him to do in the absence of a declaration of war. Now Senator Wayne [Lyman] Morse raised the issue over the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution that this was an evasion of the Congress' ; war powers, but my view was that this was an exercise of the war powers of the Congress. The Congress has the right to declare war. But surely that encompasses lesser actions that they might take in the exercise of their war powers. And so I thought that the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution was not an evasion, but an actual exercise of the war powers. JOHNSON: Congress could have rejected it. DEAN RUSK: Yes, it stated what it clearly has the power to state under its own war powers. JOHNSON: Some people argue that they didn' ; t realize that the administration was going to use that resolution to conduct a long (unintelligible). DEAN RUSK: Well, neither did the administration. If you look at the discussion on the Senate floor of the War Powers Resolution, and you look at Senator Fulbright' ; s reply to various questions, those were the views of the President of the United States at that time. Senator Fulbright was asked " ; Does this resolution authorize the President to introduce American forces on a massive scale, in effect." ; And Senator Fulbright said, " ; Yes, it does. I hope it doesn' ; t come to that, but this resolution would clearly authorize it." ; Well now, Lyndon Johnson at the time of the passage of the War Powers Resolution was not looking for a massive war out there. As a matter of fact, for a full year after he became President he got along on the numbers out there that were authorized by President Kennedy. But then at the end of 1964 and the beginning of 1965, North Vietnam began to move the divisions and regiments of their regular forces into South Vietnam and Johnson was confronted with a new situation which Kennedy had not had to face. RICHARD RUSK: Although it was more the hopes of our policy rather than intentions that there would not be a long war rather than some of the intelligence estimates--and whatever other intelligence--That is part of the problem with the Pentagon Papers. Apparently some of the intelligence people predicted a longer conflict than was-- DEAN RUSK: Bear in mind that the CIA documents that were included in the Pentagon Papers were selected out of a whole lot of CIA documents. You would have to look at the total to see what the intelligence people were saying about Vietnam during this period. JOHNSON: Getting back to consultation: some have argued, perhaps wrongly, that escalation of the war in Vietnam (unintelligible). DEAN RUSK: Well the escalation was public. I mean, when we put additional forces out there, it was announced. And President Johnson would not make decisions until he was ready to execute them. When he made a decision he wanted to execute it right away so that--You see, for the executive branch to consult with the Congress requires at the beginning, in my judgment, a view of the executive branch from which to consult. [If y]ou just go down there and ask the Congress questions, that doesn' ; t get you anywhere. They would be all over the place. So when you consult with Congress, you need to put to them a point of view and let them chew it up, let them wrestle with it. SCHOENBAUM: Now some would say on the other side--The Congressman would say " ; Well if you have come to us and you have already decided the matter, then what good is it?" ; Then they would say, " ; We can' ; t have any input." ; DEAN RUSK: Oh, there are constant adjustments being made in the view of the executive branch based upon reactions of the Congress. Any policy officer has a checklist in his mind with dozens and dozens of questions on it before he takes off on a policy. There are two questions that are always on that checklist. One is, " ; Is there a constitutional issue here?" ; And the second question is, " ; What would the Congress think about this?" ; or " ; What does the Congress think about it?" ; And that is just two of the many questions that any policy officer has to have in his mind. SCHOENBAUM: But then when you put forth this view, then you say that you want a corporate response from the Congress. DEAN RUSK: You have to make a judgment sometimes as to whether those with whom you are consulting are accurately reflecting the views of the Congress. And that is something that nobody in the Congress is able to give you an answer to ; you have got to make that judgment on your own. JOHNSON: As you look at these two very important questions with reference to the Cuban missile crisis and the Dominican Republic situation probably the first question asked (unintelligible). The answer was the executive branch has the constitutional right to act on these situations. But (unintelligible) Congress think about the Cuban missile crisis (unintelligible). So there are some circumstances where the Congress is not consulted. DEAN RUSK: Well, if you bear in mind my observations on the nature of the meeting with congressional leaders which President Kennedy had two hours before he made his television speech, I think we went away from there believing that at least these congressional leaders would support the President: that they would not create utter confusion in the Congress by all sorts of critical speeches and thereby mislead Mr. [Nikita Sergeevich ] Khrushchev. RICHARD RUSK: Probably part of that understanding was a feeling on behalf of the Congress that because of the nature of the crisis, there really wasn' ; t a chance for a full congressional consultation. DEAN RUSK: I did meet, and my appointment books will show it, but I did meet with key committees of Congress during that week just to keep them up to date on that state of play after Kennedy' ; s television speech. JOHNSON: There are occasions when Congress is presented with a fait accompli (unintelligible). You make a persuasive case with respect to Vietnam that there was pretty good consultation going on, and maybe in Bay of Pigs too. After all Fulbright was called-- DEAN RUSK: He was the only one who was really brought into it, so I wouldn' ; t call that consultation. Now there are other situations where you don' ; t consult for what I consider to be very good reasons. In the mid-sixties, about 600 Caucasian hostages were seized by the Simbas in northeastern Congo, Stanleyville. These Simbas were not under the control of the Congolese government. We tried for several weeks with the help of President [Jomo] Kenyatta of Kenya and [Julius K.] Nyerere of Tanzania to free these hostages by negotiation, and those all broke down. These Simbas were a pretty crude bunch of people. So we discussed with the Belgians the possibility of using American planes and dropping a battalion of Belgian paratroopers into Stanleyville to rescue those hostages. Now had the slightest word of such a possibility leaked out, these hostages would all have been killed. There is no doubt about it in my mind. We did not consult with the Congress on that rescue effort. We told them about it as soon as it happened. But you see, it is very hard to be sure of the confidentiality of information in the Congress. The House record is pretty good. The old Joint Atomic Energy Committee of Congress had an excellent record in this regard. They received some of the most sensitive secrets in our government and they had special rooms and special arrangements. I don' ; t recall that there was ever a leak out of the Joint Atomic Energy Committee. But you see, there is a constitutional provision which gives a senator or congressman immunity for anything he says on the Senate floor or in committees. And it can' ; t be challenged in any other place. So the only penalty that can be imposed upon a senator or congressman who breaches such an obligation of confidentiality is expulsion from the Congress and they aren' ; t going to do that. RICHARD RUSK: Can you just think back for a minute, and can you recall any other instances where the administration decided not to consult the Congress for (unintelligible). DEAN RUSK: Well, I just mentioned this Stanleyville situation. RICHARD RUSK: This Stanleyville one is a good one, but can you recall any others? JOHNSON: Maybe that is one reason why Fulbright (unintelligible). DEAN RUSK: But shortly after that we did consult in a way. In the Congo a group of about 200 white mercenaries who had been working for the Congolese government rebelled and established a position over in the eastern Congo. And this created great fury throughout the country and great anti-white sentiment throughout the country. And our Ambassador was very much afraid that this situation was going to get out of hand. So he said if any important white country made some gesture of support for the government, that it might be possible then for the government to quieten all this anti-white feeling all over the country. So we cooked up the idea of sending three transport aircraft out there, just transport aircraft, to move some government troops and to just fly around, and be seen, and so forth. So I talked to Senator Russell and Senator Fulbright about this idea and they both were strongly opposed to it. I reported that back to President Johnson. Well he then went ahead and moved these transport aircraft to Ascension Island, nearer the Congo in the South Atlantic. And then the situation in the Congo got increasingly desperate as seen by our Ambassador out there. For example, they had called for mass rallies here and there and told people coming to the rallies to bring their machetes with them because there would be things to do after the rally was over. This sounded like a massacre of whites, you see. So President Johnson then moved these three transport aircraft on into the Congo, and the government got in jeeps with loud speakers and went all over the country saying, " ; Now look here," ; and so forth, and the situation was quieted down. Now, let' ; s envisage a situation where we had not sent the transport aircraft and there had been a massacre of whites in the Congo. The President' ; s next press conference: " ; Mr. President, did you do anything about trying to prevent this massacre?" ; " ; No, not really." ; " ; Did anybody have any suggestions as to what might be done to prevent it?" ; " ; Well, our Ambassador thought that if we moved three transport aircraft down there it might help." ; " ; Well, why didn' ; t you?" ; " ; Well, Senator Russell and Senate Fulbright didn' ; t think it was a good idea." ; Now what would have been the reaction to that kind of an answer by a President? People would say, " ; Good God, what' ; s going on around here. Who is President of the United States?" ; So there are times when you can consult but you don' ; t have to agree. And both Senator Fulbright and Senator Russell got up on the Senate floor and blasted President Johnson for sending those three transport aircraft down there. RICHARD RUSK: Let me read you a comment by William Fulbright. He speaks to the same thing. And Fulbright once headed this congressional oversight. He said, " ; I must confess to increasingly serious misgivings about the ability of the Congress to play a constructive role in our foreign relations." ; He must have said this in the 1970s. " ; Those of us who prodded what seemed to be a hopelessly immobile herd of cattle a decade ago, now stand back in awe in the face of a stampede." ; You know, we are getting into a separate but related issue, and that is how well does foreign affairs work out when Congress does play an increasingly important role or tries to play an increasingly important role? Perhaps before we get into that or as we continue to discuss it, can I ask you one question about Vietnam, and that is: wasn' ; t there a considerable debate within the administration over the degree of candor and the degree of congressional consultation with respect to policy decision making? Weren' ; t you, in fact, advocating President Johnson to speak a bit more forthrightly about what our intentions were over there with greater frequency and to consult with the Congress? DEAN RUSK: Well, during two years--I forget which years these were. I think they were 1966 and 1967--President Johnson invited every senator and congressman to come down to the White House later in the afternoon in groups of about thirty. And there we--McNamara and I--would give some briefing. And then we would take questions and comments from anybody present. Now he covered the entire Congress in those meetings in two successive years. Now, one wonders whether senators and congressmen in such circumstances will express their real views. Sometimes they may not want to for one reason or another. But I must say that looking back over those discussions with all the members of the Congress in those groups, one had a right to believe that they were supporting what he was trying to do. RICHARD RUSK: Was there a debate within the administration over the degree of frequency, the extent to which the administration would consult with the Congress and also fully inform the American people as to what the decisions were? DEAN RUSK: Well, if you are talking about decisions which have not yet been made, all right, there was not all that much consultation with Congress about possible decisions yet to be made. If you are talking about decisions in pace with their being made, there was a lot of consultation on that. You won' ; t really get a full answer to this until the Senate Foreign Relations Committee and the House Foreign Affairs Committee complete the publication of their executive meetings. But there was a lot of discussion on Vietnam at all stages throughout this. Now, let' ; s talk a little bit more about the Congress ; and Loch, you can put in a rebuttal if you want to. I happen to believe that the overwhelming majority of senators and congressmen are honest men and women trying to do a good job. Lyndon Johnson once said that he never knew a senator who was trying to do the wrong thing. I think he was being a little generous when he said he never knew any senator who was trying to do the wrong thing. But nevertheless, there are some rotten apples in the group as there would be in any population of 535. And sometimes those create some real problems and create a certain sense of disgust on the part of anybody who has to deal with those rotten apples. But the Congress itself has not organized itself for the purpose of looking at foreign policy as a whole. Almost literally every committee of Congress finds itself getting into foreign relations problems. This is not only the Foreign Affairs committees, it' ; s the committees on the District of Columbia which are constantly getting into issues involving in the way we take care of foreign embassies in our capital and things of that sort. I have long suggested, without any effect whatever, that if necessary the rules of the Congress be changed and make it clear that the Senate Foreign Relations Committee and the House Foreign Affairs Committee can call up before themselves any bill pending in any other committee for the purpose of commenting on it from the point of view of foreign policy as a whole. But these committee jealousies are such that that is not likely to be adopted. But there is no one who has a comprehensive responsibility for foreign policy in the Congress and that greatly complicates the problem of consultation from the point of view of the executive branch. We used to meet occasionally with the joint meetings of the Foreign Affairs and Armed Services Committees. But you see, you have the House Ways and Means Committee, the Senate Finance Committee, and all sorts of other committees. The agriculture committees have a bearing on these things. So there is a kind of disarray in the Congress on how the Congress deals with foreign policy matters. But that is not likely to change. RICHARD RUSK: Craft refers to that in his book. DEAN RUSK: Now also bear in mind that senators and congressmen-- RICHARD RUSK: Let me take a little extra from Craft' ; s book. He deals with this in his study and he really sums it up well. He says that as a nation enters the 1980s Congress appears to be more decentralized, fragmented, and resistant to unified influences than at any previous period in American history. " ; To date Congress has supplied little evidence to show that it is prepared to adapt its own organizational structure and internal procedures to the demands of an active foreign policy role its members are determined to plague. In the long run this failure could prove decisive in determining the future of congressional activism in foreign affairs." ; Does Congress itself agree with that assessment? DEAN RUSK: Well all I can say is that when I went up the Gerald [Rudolph] Ford [Jr.] Library for consultation between some former Secretaries of State and former members of Congress on relations between the two in foreign relations, the former members of Congress, I think, would agree that Congress has a job to do within itself in organizing itself better for the conduct of foreign relations. Now, make another point: and that is the oversight function of Congress has almost run wild. And part of that is due, I think, to the multiplication of congressional staff because they have got to earn their keep and they have got to demonstrate their job is important. And one of the ways you do is to tinker with something. And in carrying out this oversight function, the Congress is inclined to get into the kinds of detail which simply are not a part of the legislative function at all. But again, I doubt that that is going to decrease very much in the present circumstances. Then another development that I am really quite concerned about. In my day the General Accounting Office was a bunch of bookkeepers. Their job was to insure that funds expended by the government were expended in pursuance of appropriations authority. President Kennedy once asked me to make an expenditure for something and my lawyers and I just decided that we did not have any legislative authority to use such funds. There was no appropriations that would cover it. So I called the then Attorney General, who was then Bobby [Robert Francis] Kennedy, and asked him if he had any advice. He just laughed and said, " ; Well if you go to prison, your salary will continue while you are in prison." ; That wasn' ; t very helpful from the chief law officer of the government. So I went back to President Kennedy and said, " ; Sorry, Mr. President, I can' ; t make this expenditure, I have got no legal appropriation that would cover it." ; And he didn' ; t press the point ; he dropped it. In the last fifteen years or so, the General Accounting Office has been roaming all over the place now, making policy judgments about all sorts of things: not just whether or not the funds are being used in accordance with appropriations. Now, if they don' ; t have anyone on their own staff who can do these things, they will go out and get a couple of professors to study the matter. And they insert themselves into all sorts of policy issues for which they have no responsibility. And there is no real congressional supervision of the General Accounting Office. Any member of Congress can ask them to do a study and report back to them on it. And it is sort of growing up to be a sort of fourth branch of government. JOHNSON: (unintelligible) fly by night? DEAN RUSK: Oh yes. Well a couple of these General Accounting Office types went out to SAC [Strategic Air Command] Headquarters and demanded of the Commanding General of SAC that he turn over to them the nuclear targeting plans. Fortunately, he told them to go to hell. And they will go off to foreign countries where the writ of the United States law does not run and they will try to question and interrogate officials of foreign governments about various things. Well, it is just getting out of hand and somebody really ought to take a look at that. I have been getting the weekly reports on studies of the GAO [General Accounting Office] and it is just a chamber of horrors in terms of what they are now doing. RICHARD RUSK: GAO was just accused of mismanaging its own funds. Do you think the American people would want Congress to play a more active role? Will [William Penn Adair] Rogers once made the comment that, " ; There is good news from Washington ; Congress has adjourned." ; We tend to place a lot of faith in the presidency as an institution and give it a lot of power in foreign affairs. Do you think basically the American people, with the exception of the problems we got into in Vietnam and some of these other issues, do you think basically they' ; re comfortable with the Executive being dominant in these matters? DEAN RUSK: The Executive is not really dominant. If you make a list of the things that a President can do all by himself, it is a very short list. He can pardon criminals ; he can discuss matters with other governments ; can' ; t send ambassadors unless he get advice and consent for their nomination, although he can have some personal representatives go about doing various things. But it is really quite surprising to see how few things a President can do all by himself. In a real sense, the presidency is a license to persuade because he has got to carry others along with him, particularly the Congress. So I think a good deal of this " ; imperial presidency" ; talk sort of misses the point. JOHNSON: Can you think of an example where the Congress has played a major constructive role (unintelligible)? DEAN RUSK: Well to begin with, very rarely does the Congress itself take initiative in dreaming up its own foreign policy. Once in a while you get a horrible example of it. Ann [Swinford] Dunn can give you a copy of the Captive Nations Resolution. Now when I first joined President Kennedy, along about April there came to my desk a proclamation that I was supposed to send over to the President proclaiming a certain week in July to be Captive Nations Week. I looked through this proclamation, and it would clearly break the Soviet Union up into about eleven independent nations. It mentions a number of component parts of the Soviet Union, including one, Idel Ural, which you can' ; t even find in the Encyclopedia Britannica. And so I called my colleagues and said, " ; What in the hell is this all about?" ; And they brought to me this Captive Nations Resolution which had been passed unanimously by the Congress in 1958 or 1959. It came out of the Judiciary Committee, not out of the Foreign Relations Committee, and it is one the wildest kinds of cold war kind of thing you ever see in your life. So I sent the proclamation on over to the President ; and every year the President proclaims a certain week in July to be Captive Nations Week. Well, there is a little sequel to that. During the early 1970s, Bill Fulbright was trying, as chairman of the Committee, to get as much of the rhetoric as possible out of legislation--all these high-flying preambles and all that kind of stuff. And I sympathize with that. So I wrote him a note suggesting that his committee take a look at the Captive Nations Resolution and get that damn thing off the books. And I got a note back from him later saying that they had discussed it in Committee, but there were some senators up for reelection who would not want to vote on rescinding that resolution, but they would be glad if the President were to discontinue issuing the proclamation. You see, you have got a lot of ethnic groups in Illinois and places like that - - Croats, and Serbs, and Ukranians, and all sorts of things--so we go ahead with something that makes no sense whatever. Now there was a congressional initiative. Let' ; s see now something on the more positive side. JOHNSON: Well I suppose you could mention the Kennedy Rounds and the Test Ban Treaty. There was legislative involvement there. DEAN RUSK: Oh yes. As a matter of fact, the Kennedy Rounds had prior congressional authorization. Early in the Kennedy administration we realized that the Trade Expansion Act would have to be renewed. And the idea had been that we renew it with, just get an annual extension. But it looked like it was going to be a helluva fight just to get an annual extension. So Kennedy and I, despite some of the advice of some of our colleagues, decided that if you' ; re going to have a fight, you had better have a fight about something and not have a fight about nothing. And so we went for the five-year trade expansion pact, which laid the groundwork for the Kennedy Round of trade negotiations. And it passed the Congress with a wholesome majority. SCHOENBAUM: The initiative came out of the State Department but you consulted with Congress? DEAN RUSK: We consulted very closely with Wilbur [Daigh] Mills, by the way who, in my day, was in his prime. He was chairman of the Ways and Means Committee. He knew his business ; he had great influence in the Congress. His committee was the Committee on Committees that determined who was going to sit on which committee. So the Ways and Means Committee had great power in those days and he was at the peak of his powers. JOHNSON: You know it seems like the crunch comes when it comes to the use for force: that is where the pattern of prior consultation begins to look a little spotty, when he comes to trade or arms control (unintelligible). SCHOENBAUM: On both sides? JOHNSON: Yes (unintelligible). DEAN RUSK: Yes and partly because of sheer necessity. JOHNSON: (unintelligible) DEAN RUSK: You can' ; t deal with trade matters without the Congress, for example. JOHNSON: You can' ; t conduct a successful military operations without (unintelligible) DEAN RUSK: Now sometimes that relationship is subject to certain abuse. They tell the story that Teddy [Theodore] Roosevelt wanted to send the Great White Fleet around the world but the Congress wouldn' ; t approve the idea or approve the funds. So Teddy Roosevelt simply sent the Great White Fleet half way around the world and then said to Congress, " ; If you want to get them home, you will have to put up the money." ; RICHARD RUSK: He also said, " ; Let' ; s take the Panama Canal and let Congress debate that one ; meanwhile, we will go ahead and take it." ; DEAN RUSK: Well, the Louisiana Purchase was consummated on the basis of executive power ; it was not until later that we got Congressional approval. And there is still the story around that Napoleon bribed some members of the Congress to get that approved. JOHNSON: And it seems to me, rightly or wrongly, this is why Congress has tried (unintelligible) prevent instances like that. DEAN RUSK: The Congress could assert itself much better if it organized itself to be assertive. RICHARD RUSK: What would it have to do? You are not much one for procedural reforms and organizational changes. You prefer to see things handled by good quality people-- DEAN RUSK: To begin with, if Congress wants to exercise more influence in foreign policy matters, its members have got to commit time to the business. They just can' ; t do it off their cuffs or let some staff officer do it for them. They have got to commit time to it. And that is one thing they find in very short supply. The pressures of time on any individual senator or congressman are just hard to describe. JOHNSON: Even if they had the time, aren' ; t the issues of foreign policy too complicated for them to-- DEAN RUSK: I don' ; t think so. I have long opposed the elitist attitude toward foreign policy: the attitudes expressed sometimes by Walter Lippmann, and George [Frost] Kennan, and sometimes Dean [Gooderham] Acheson. I have lived with the elite a good many years of my life, but when it comes down to common sense, practical judgment, considerations of right and wrong, considerations of the gap between what is and what ought to be, I don' ; t find the elite having any advantage over my country cousins in Cherokee County, Georgia. I think we underestimate the capacity of the people to make sensible judgments on things if they know what the issues are and why. One of the reasons Harry Truman was a great President is that this little man from Independence had great confidence in the grass roots of the American people. He really did believe that at their best the American people are a very good people and will do what has to be done at the end of the day if they understood what it was and why. And his reelection in 1948 was an appeal to the grass roots. But we are not always at our best. During the Truman years, for example, we came up with something more than three percent of our Gross National Product for the Marshall Plan, for foreign aid, for technical assistance, and things of that sort because our minds and spirits had been purged in the fires of World War II and we were prepared to do such things. But now you can' ; t get one-half of one percent of our GNP for foreign aid. No, I think we should not underestimate the American people. As a matter of fact, I would rely upon the common sense of fourth grade school children on this question of Star Wars if they really understood what the issues were, what the prospect is. SCHOENBAUM: I wanted to ask about these senators like Fulbright and Mansfield: they supported you and then they withdrew their support. Did they ever privately come to you and explain to you their reasoning before they went public with--and they caused a lot of grief and they took positions that were different from the administration' ; s fundamental ways. Did they come to you? Did they consult with you and say, " ; Look I can' ; t support you any more on this" ; ? DEAN RUSK: Particularly Mansfield would give his reasons. He would write occasional letters to the President, a copy to me, giving his reasoning behind his views. Ironically, he was one of the cosigners of the SEATO [Southeast Asia Treaty Organization] Treaty. He, and Senator [H. Alexander] Smith of New Jersey, and [John] Foster Dulles made up the delegation that signed that treaty for us. When he was reminded of that later he said, well he did so reluctantly. Well, I again went to the Congressional Record to look at the floor discussion in the Senate on the advice and consent of the SEATO Treaty and he didn' ; t tell the Senate that he signed it reluctantly. He urged them to vote it through. END OF SIDE 2 Resources may be used under the guidelines described by the U.S. Copyright Office in Section 107, Title 17, United States Code (Fair use). Parties interested in production or commercial use of the resources should contact the Russell Library for a fee schedule. audio 0 RBRL214DROH-RuskU.xml RBRL214DROH-RuskU.xml http://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL214DROH/findingaid
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97 minutes
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Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
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Rusk U, Interview with Dean Rusk, January 3, 1985
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RBRL214DROH-RuskU
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Dean Rusk
Richard Rusk
Thomas Schoenbaum
Loch Johnson
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audio
oral histories
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sound
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United States
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Federal government--United States
United States--Appropriations and expenditures
Cold War
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Dean Rusk, Richard Rusk, Thomas Schoenbaum, and Loch Johnson discuss the U.S. Congress and relations between the Executive and Legislative branches.
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1985-01-03
OHMS
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Richard B. Russell, Jr. Oral History Project
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United States--Officials and employees
State governments--Officials and employees
Politics and Public Policy
Description
An account of the resource
The Richard B. Russell, Jr. Oral History Project consists of 175 oral history interviews relating to the personal and political life of Richard B. Russell. Interviewees include members of the Russell family, his staff and interns, other senators and public figures, and friends. The primary interviewer was Hugh Cates, a public relations manager at Southern Bell and secretary of the Russell Foundation (1977-1981). Most of the interviews were recorded between 1971 and 1979, but the majority during 1971 after Senator Russell's death. Other interviewers include: William Stueck, Karen Kelly, Barboura Raesly, Robert G. Stephens, Jr., Dwight L. Freshley, Tom Jackson, Angus Hepburn, and Russell Library staff. Interviews provide insight into Senator Russell's political career as State Representative, Governor, and U.S. Senator, his views on various topics such as civil rights and Vietnam, and his personality and family life.<br /><br /><a href="http://georgiaoralhistory.libs.uga.edu/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=&range=&collection=23&type=&tags=OHMS&featured=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">View all OHMS indexed interviews in this collection here.</a>
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Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
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Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
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1971-2002
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RBRL216RBROH
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Georgia
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Transcript, 5 pages
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Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
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RBRL216RBROH-004
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Interview with Winston L. Prouty, April 21, 1971
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1971-04-21
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Winston L. Prouty
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Interview with Winston L. Prouty, U.S. Senator (R-Vermont). Topics include U.S. Senate.
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Federal government--United States
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United States
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oral histories
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sound
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Richard B. Russell, Jr. Oral History Project
Subject
The topic of the resource
United States--Officials and employees
State governments--Officials and employees
Politics and Public Policy
Description
An account of the resource
The Richard B. Russell, Jr. Oral History Project consists of 175 oral history interviews relating to the personal and political life of Richard B. Russell. Interviewees include members of the Russell family, his staff and interns, other senators and public figures, and friends. The primary interviewer was Hugh Cates, a public relations manager at Southern Bell and secretary of the Russell Foundation (1977-1981). Most of the interviews were recorded between 1971 and 1979, but the majority during 1971 after Senator Russell's death. Other interviewers include: William Stueck, Karen Kelly, Barboura Raesly, Robert G. Stephens, Jr., Dwight L. Freshley, Tom Jackson, Angus Hepburn, and Russell Library staff. Interviews provide insight into Senator Russell's political career as State Representative, Governor, and U.S. Senator, his views on various topics such as civil rights and Vietnam, and his personality and family life.<br /><br /><a href="http://georgiaoralhistory.libs.uga.edu/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=&range=&collection=23&type=&tags=OHMS&featured=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">View all OHMS indexed interviews in this collection here.</a>
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Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
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Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
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1971-2002
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http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
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Oral histories
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RBRL216RBROH
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Georgia
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Transcript, 6 pages
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Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
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RBRL216RBROH-010
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Interview with Spiro Theodore Agnew, April 22, 1971
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1971-04-22
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Spiro Theodore Agnew
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Spiro Theodore Agnew was the Vice President of the United States, 1969-1973. Topics include anecdotes of Senator Russell; Richard M. Nixon; Violence and Demonstrations.
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Federal government--United States
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United States
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http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
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oral histories
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sound
-
Dublin Core
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Title
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Richard B. Russell, Jr. Oral History Project
Subject
The topic of the resource
United States--Officials and employees
State governments--Officials and employees
Politics and Public Policy
Description
An account of the resource
The Richard B. Russell, Jr. Oral History Project consists of 175 oral history interviews relating to the personal and political life of Richard B. Russell. Interviewees include members of the Russell family, his staff and interns, other senators and public figures, and friends. The primary interviewer was Hugh Cates, a public relations manager at Southern Bell and secretary of the Russell Foundation (1977-1981). Most of the interviews were recorded between 1971 and 1979, but the majority during 1971 after Senator Russell's death. Other interviewers include: William Stueck, Karen Kelly, Barboura Raesly, Robert G. Stephens, Jr., Dwight L. Freshley, Tom Jackson, Angus Hepburn, and Russell Library staff. Interviews provide insight into Senator Russell's political career as State Representative, Governor, and U.S. Senator, his views on various topics such as civil rights and Vietnam, and his personality and family life.<br /><br /><a href="http://georgiaoralhistory.libs.uga.edu/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=&range=&collection=23&type=&tags=OHMS&featured=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">View all OHMS indexed interviews in this collection here.</a>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1971-2002
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Oral histories
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL216RBROH
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Georgia
Hyperlink
A link, or reference, to another resource on the Internet.
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
Transcript, 5 pages
Repository
Name of repository the interview is from
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL216RBROH-038
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Rupert Vance Hartke, April 29, 1971
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1971-04-29
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Rupert Vance Hartke
Description
An account of the resource
Interview with Rupert Vance Hartke, U.S. Senator (D-Indiana). Topics include anecdotes of Senator Russell; U.S. Senate.
Subject
The topic of the resource
Federal government--United States
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
United States
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
oral histories
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
sound
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Richard B. Russell, Jr. Oral History Project
Subject
The topic of the resource
United States--Officials and employees
State governments--Officials and employees
Politics and Public Policy
Description
An account of the resource
The Richard B. Russell, Jr. Oral History Project consists of 175 oral history interviews relating to the personal and political life of Richard B. Russell. Interviewees include members of the Russell family, his staff and interns, other senators and public figures, and friends. The primary interviewer was Hugh Cates, a public relations manager at Southern Bell and secretary of the Russell Foundation (1977-1981). Most of the interviews were recorded between 1971 and 1979, but the majority during 1971 after Senator Russell's death. Other interviewers include: William Stueck, Karen Kelly, Barboura Raesly, Robert G. Stephens, Jr., Dwight L. Freshley, Tom Jackson, Angus Hepburn, and Russell Library staff. Interviews provide insight into Senator Russell's political career as State Representative, Governor, and U.S. Senator, his views on various topics such as civil rights and Vietnam, and his personality and family life.<br /><br /><a href="http://georgiaoralhistory.libs.uga.edu/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=&range=&collection=23&type=&tags=OHMS&featured=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">View all OHMS indexed interviews in this collection here.</a>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1971-2002
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Oral histories
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL216RBROH
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Georgia
Hyperlink
A link, or reference, to another resource on the Internet.
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
Transcript, 6 pages
Repository
Name of repository the interview is from
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL216RBROH-039
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Jennings Randolph, April 29, 1971
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1971-04-29
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Jennings Randolph
Description
An account of the resource
Interview with Jennings Randolph, U.S. Senator (D-West Virginia). Topics include U.S. Senate.
Subject
The topic of the resource
Federal government--United States
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
United States
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
oral histories
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
sound
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Richard B. Russell, Jr. Oral History Project
Subject
The topic of the resource
United States--Officials and employees
State governments--Officials and employees
Politics and Public Policy
Description
An account of the resource
The Richard B. Russell, Jr. Oral History Project consists of 175 oral history interviews relating to the personal and political life of Richard B. Russell. Interviewees include members of the Russell family, his staff and interns, other senators and public figures, and friends. The primary interviewer was Hugh Cates, a public relations manager at Southern Bell and secretary of the Russell Foundation (1977-1981). Most of the interviews were recorded between 1971 and 1979, but the majority during 1971 after Senator Russell's death. Other interviewers include: William Stueck, Karen Kelly, Barboura Raesly, Robert G. Stephens, Jr., Dwight L. Freshley, Tom Jackson, Angus Hepburn, and Russell Library staff. Interviews provide insight into Senator Russell's political career as State Representative, Governor, and U.S. Senator, his views on various topics such as civil rights and Vietnam, and his personality and family life.<br /><br /><a href="http://georgiaoralhistory.libs.uga.edu/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=&range=&collection=23&type=&tags=OHMS&featured=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">View all OHMS indexed interviews in this collection here.</a>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1971-2002
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Oral histories
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL216RBROH
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Georgia
Hyperlink
A link, or reference, to another resource on the Internet.
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
Transcript, 10 pages
Repository
Name of repository the interview is from
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL216RBROH-040
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with John Sherman Cooper, April 29, 1971
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1971-04-29
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
John Sherman Cooper
Description
An account of the resource
Interview with John Sherman Cooper, U.S. Senator (R-Kentucky). Topics include Center College; Kennedy Assassination--Second bullet; Marina Oswald; U. S. Senate Committees; U. S. Warren Commission; Russell's reluctance to serve on Warren Commission.
Subject
The topic of the resource
Federal government--United States
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
United States
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
oral histories
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
sound
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Richard B. Russell, Jr. Oral History Project
Subject
The topic of the resource
United States--Officials and employees
State governments--Officials and employees
Politics and Public Policy
Description
An account of the resource
The Richard B. Russell, Jr. Oral History Project consists of 175 oral history interviews relating to the personal and political life of Richard B. Russell. Interviewees include members of the Russell family, his staff and interns, other senators and public figures, and friends. The primary interviewer was Hugh Cates, a public relations manager at Southern Bell and secretary of the Russell Foundation (1977-1981). Most of the interviews were recorded between 1971 and 1979, but the majority during 1971 after Senator Russell's death. Other interviewers include: William Stueck, Karen Kelly, Barboura Raesly, Robert G. Stephens, Jr., Dwight L. Freshley, Tom Jackson, Angus Hepburn, and Russell Library staff. Interviews provide insight into Senator Russell's political career as State Representative, Governor, and U.S. Senator, his views on various topics such as civil rights and Vietnam, and his personality and family life.<br /><br /><a href="http://georgiaoralhistory.libs.uga.edu/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=&range=&collection=23&type=&tags=OHMS&featured=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">View all OHMS indexed interviews in this collection here.</a>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1971-2002
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Oral histories
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL216RBROH
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Georgia
Hyperlink
A link, or reference, to another resource on the Internet.
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
Transcript, 5 pages
Repository
Name of repository the interview is from
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL216RBROH-042
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Frank E. Moss, April 26, 1971
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1971-04-26
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Frank Edward Moss
Description
An account of the resource
Interview with Frank E. Moss, U.S. Senator (D-Utah). Topics include anecdotes of Senator Russell; U.S. Senate.
Subject
The topic of the resource
Federal government--United States
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
United States
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
oral histories
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
sound
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Richard B. Russell, Jr. Oral History Project
Subject
The topic of the resource
United States--Officials and employees
State governments--Officials and employees
Politics and Public Policy
Description
An account of the resource
The Richard B. Russell, Jr. Oral History Project consists of 175 oral history interviews relating to the personal and political life of Richard B. Russell. Interviewees include members of the Russell family, his staff and interns, other senators and public figures, and friends. The primary interviewer was Hugh Cates, a public relations manager at Southern Bell and secretary of the Russell Foundation (1977-1981). Most of the interviews were recorded between 1971 and 1979, but the majority during 1971 after Senator Russell's death. Other interviewers include: William Stueck, Karen Kelly, Barboura Raesly, Robert G. Stephens, Jr., Dwight L. Freshley, Tom Jackson, Angus Hepburn, and Russell Library staff. Interviews provide insight into Senator Russell's political career as State Representative, Governor, and U.S. Senator, his views on various topics such as civil rights and Vietnam, and his personality and family life.<br /><br /><a href="http://georgiaoralhistory.libs.uga.edu/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=&range=&collection=23&type=&tags=OHMS&featured=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">View all OHMS indexed interviews in this collection here.</a>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1971-2002
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Oral histories
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL216RBROH
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Georgia
Hyperlink
A link, or reference, to another resource on the Internet.
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
Transcript, 7 pages
Repository
Name of repository the interview is from
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL216RBROH-043
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Brich E. Bayh, April 26, 1971
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1971-04-26
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Birch Evan Bayh
Description
An account of the resource
Interview with Birch Evan Bayh, U.S. Senator (D-Indiana). Topics include U. S. Supreme Court; Vietnamese Conflict, 1961-1975; Voting (18 year old vote).
Subject
The topic of the resource
Federal government--United States
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
United States
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
oral histories
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
sound
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Richard B. Russell, Jr. Oral History Project
Subject
The topic of the resource
United States--Officials and employees
State governments--Officials and employees
Politics and Public Policy
Description
An account of the resource
The Richard B. Russell, Jr. Oral History Project consists of 175 oral history interviews relating to the personal and political life of Richard B. Russell. Interviewees include members of the Russell family, his staff and interns, other senators and public figures, and friends. The primary interviewer was Hugh Cates, a public relations manager at Southern Bell and secretary of the Russell Foundation (1977-1981). Most of the interviews were recorded between 1971 and 1979, but the majority during 1971 after Senator Russell's death. Other interviewers include: William Stueck, Karen Kelly, Barboura Raesly, Robert G. Stephens, Jr., Dwight L. Freshley, Tom Jackson, Angus Hepburn, and Russell Library staff. Interviews provide insight into Senator Russell's political career as State Representative, Governor, and U.S. Senator, his views on various topics such as civil rights and Vietnam, and his personality and family life.<br /><br /><a href="http://georgiaoralhistory.libs.uga.edu/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=&range=&collection=23&type=&tags=OHMS&featured=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">View all OHMS indexed interviews in this collection here.</a>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1971-2002
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Oral histories
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL216RBROH
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Georgia
Hyperlink
A link, or reference, to another resource on the Internet.
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
Transcript, 7 pages
Repository
Name of repository the interview is from
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL216RBROH-052
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with John G. Beall Jr., April 19, 1971
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1971-04-19
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
John Glenn Beall, Jr.
Description
An account of the resource
Interview with John G. Beall, Jr., U.S. Senator (R-Maryland). Topics include Spiro T. Agnew; Anecdotes of Senator Russell; U. S. Senator George Radcliffe (R-Maryland); Republican Party - Presidents; U. S. Senate.
Subject
The topic of the resource
Federal government--United States
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
United States
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
oral histories
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
sound
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Richard B. Russell, Jr. Oral History Project
Subject
The topic of the resource
United States--Officials and employees
State governments--Officials and employees
Politics and Public Policy
Description
An account of the resource
The Richard B. Russell, Jr. Oral History Project consists of 175 oral history interviews relating to the personal and political life of Richard B. Russell. Interviewees include members of the Russell family, his staff and interns, other senators and public figures, and friends. The primary interviewer was Hugh Cates, a public relations manager at Southern Bell and secretary of the Russell Foundation (1977-1981). Most of the interviews were recorded between 1971 and 1979, but the majority during 1971 after Senator Russell's death. Other interviewers include: William Stueck, Karen Kelly, Barboura Raesly, Robert G. Stephens, Jr., Dwight L. Freshley, Tom Jackson, Angus Hepburn, and Russell Library staff. Interviews provide insight into Senator Russell's political career as State Representative, Governor, and U.S. Senator, his views on various topics such as civil rights and Vietnam, and his personality and family life.<br /><br /><a href="http://georgiaoralhistory.libs.uga.edu/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=&range=&collection=23&type=&tags=OHMS&featured=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">View all OHMS indexed interviews in this collection here.</a>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1971-2002
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Oral histories
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL216RBROH
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Georgia
Hyperlink
A link, or reference, to another resource on the Internet.
Repository
Name of repository the interview is from
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL216RBROH-059
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Charles M. Mathias Jr., April 21, 1971
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1971-04-21
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Charles M. Mathias, Jr.
Description
An account of the resource
Interview with Charles M. Mathias Jr., U.S. Senator (R-Maryland). Topics include Spiro T. Agnew; Edward Kennedy; John F. Kennedy.
Subject
The topic of the resource
Federal government--United States
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
United States
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
oral histories
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
sound
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Richard B. Russell, Jr. Oral History Project
Subject
The topic of the resource
United States--Officials and employees
State governments--Officials and employees
Politics and Public Policy
Description
An account of the resource
The Richard B. Russell, Jr. Oral History Project consists of 175 oral history interviews relating to the personal and political life of Richard B. Russell. Interviewees include members of the Russell family, his staff and interns, other senators and public figures, and friends. The primary interviewer was Hugh Cates, a public relations manager at Southern Bell and secretary of the Russell Foundation (1977-1981). Most of the interviews were recorded between 1971 and 1979, but the majority during 1971 after Senator Russell's death. Other interviewers include: William Stueck, Karen Kelly, Barboura Raesly, Robert G. Stephens, Jr., Dwight L. Freshley, Tom Jackson, Angus Hepburn, and Russell Library staff. Interviews provide insight into Senator Russell's political career as State Representative, Governor, and U.S. Senator, his views on various topics such as civil rights and Vietnam, and his personality and family life.<br /><br /><a href="http://georgiaoralhistory.libs.uga.edu/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=&range=&collection=23&type=&tags=OHMS&featured=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">View all OHMS indexed interviews in this collection here.</a>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1971-2002
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Oral histories
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL216RBROH
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Georgia
Hyperlink
A link, or reference, to another resource on the Internet.
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
Transcript, 4 pages
Repository
Name of repository the interview is from
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL216RBROH-063
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Claiborne Pell, April 23, 1971
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1971-04-23
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Claiborne de Borda Pell
Description
An account of the resource
Interview with Claiborne de Borda Pell, U.S. Senator (D-Rhode Island). Topics include Presidential election (1952); U.S. Senate.
Subject
The topic of the resource
Federal government--United States
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
United States
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
oral histories
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
sound
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Richard B. Russell, Jr. Oral History Project
Subject
The topic of the resource
United States--Officials and employees
State governments--Officials and employees
Politics and Public Policy
Description
An account of the resource
The Richard B. Russell, Jr. Oral History Project consists of 175 oral history interviews relating to the personal and political life of Richard B. Russell. Interviewees include members of the Russell family, his staff and interns, other senators and public figures, and friends. The primary interviewer was Hugh Cates, a public relations manager at Southern Bell and secretary of the Russell Foundation (1977-1981). Most of the interviews were recorded between 1971 and 1979, but the majority during 1971 after Senator Russell's death. Other interviewers include: William Stueck, Karen Kelly, Barboura Raesly, Robert G. Stephens, Jr., Dwight L. Freshley, Tom Jackson, Angus Hepburn, and Russell Library staff. Interviews provide insight into Senator Russell's political career as State Representative, Governor, and U.S. Senator, his views on various topics such as civil rights and Vietnam, and his personality and family life.<br /><br /><a href="http://georgiaoralhistory.libs.uga.edu/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=&range=&collection=23&type=&tags=OHMS&featured=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">View all OHMS indexed interviews in this collection here.</a>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1971-2002
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Oral histories
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL216RBROH
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Georgia
Hyperlink
A link, or reference, to another resource on the Internet.
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
Transcript, 4 pages
Repository
Name of repository the interview is from
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL216RBROH-064
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Darrell St. Claire, April 28, 1971
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1971-04-28
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Darrell St. Claire
Description
An account of the resource
Interview with Darrell St. Claire, Chief Clerk, U.S. Senate, Office of the Secretary. Topics include Cloture; President pro tempore of the Senate; U.S. Senate.
Subject
The topic of the resource
Federal government--United States
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
United States
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
oral histories
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
sound
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Richard B. Russell, Jr. Oral History Project
Subject
The topic of the resource
United States--Officials and employees
State governments--Officials and employees
Politics and Public Policy
Description
An account of the resource
The Richard B. Russell, Jr. Oral History Project consists of 175 oral history interviews relating to the personal and political life of Richard B. Russell. Interviewees include members of the Russell family, his staff and interns, other senators and public figures, and friends. The primary interviewer was Hugh Cates, a public relations manager at Southern Bell and secretary of the Russell Foundation (1977-1981). Most of the interviews were recorded between 1971 and 1979, but the majority during 1971 after Senator Russell's death. Other interviewers include: William Stueck, Karen Kelly, Barboura Raesly, Robert G. Stephens, Jr., Dwight L. Freshley, Tom Jackson, Angus Hepburn, and Russell Library staff. Interviews provide insight into Senator Russell's political career as State Representative, Governor, and U.S. Senator, his views on various topics such as civil rights and Vietnam, and his personality and family life.<br /><br /><a href="http://georgiaoralhistory.libs.uga.edu/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=&range=&collection=23&type=&tags=OHMS&featured=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">View all OHMS indexed interviews in this collection here.</a>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1971-2002
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Oral histories
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL216RBROH
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Georgia
Hyperlink
A link, or reference, to another resource on the Internet.
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
Transcript, 7 pages
Repository
Name of repository the interview is from
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL216RBROH-066
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Peter H. Dominick, April 28, 1971
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1971-04-28
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Peter H. Dominick
Description
An account of the resource
Interview with Peter H. Dominick, U.S. Senator (R-Colorado). Topics include anecdotes of Senator Russell; Richard M. Nixon; Russell's influence on U. S. Senate; Russell's service on committees; Senate Armed Services Committee; Soviet Union.
Subject
The topic of the resource
Federal government--United States
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
United States
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
oral histories
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
sound
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Richard B. Russell, Jr. Oral History Project
Subject
The topic of the resource
United States--Officials and employees
State governments--Officials and employees
Politics and Public Policy
Description
An account of the resource
The Richard B. Russell, Jr. Oral History Project consists of 175 oral history interviews relating to the personal and political life of Richard B. Russell. Interviewees include members of the Russell family, his staff and interns, other senators and public figures, and friends. The primary interviewer was Hugh Cates, a public relations manager at Southern Bell and secretary of the Russell Foundation (1977-1981). Most of the interviews were recorded between 1971 and 1979, but the majority during 1971 after Senator Russell's death. Other interviewers include: William Stueck, Karen Kelly, Barboura Raesly, Robert G. Stephens, Jr., Dwight L. Freshley, Tom Jackson, Angus Hepburn, and Russell Library staff. Interviews provide insight into Senator Russell's political career as State Representative, Governor, and U.S. Senator, his views on various topics such as civil rights and Vietnam, and his personality and family life.<br /><br /><a href="http://georgiaoralhistory.libs.uga.edu/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=&range=&collection=23&type=&tags=OHMS&featured=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">View all OHMS indexed interviews in this collection here.</a>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1971-2002
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Oral histories
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL216RBROH
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Georgia
Hyperlink
A link, or reference, to another resource on the Internet.
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
Transcript, 4 pages
Repository
Name of repository the interview is from
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL216RBROH-070
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Quentin N. Burdick, April 28, 1971
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1971-04-28
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Quentin N. Burdick
Description
An account of the resource
Interview with Quentin N. Burdick, U.S. Senator (D-North Dakota). Topics include anecdotes of Senator Russell; Legislators--United States; U. S. Senate.
Subject
The topic of the resource
Federal government--United States
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
United States
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
oral histories
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
sound
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Richard B. Russell, Jr. Oral History Project
Subject
The topic of the resource
United States--Officials and employees
State governments--Officials and employees
Politics and Public Policy
Description
An account of the resource
The Richard B. Russell, Jr. Oral History Project consists of 175 oral history interviews relating to the personal and political life of Richard B. Russell. Interviewees include members of the Russell family, his staff and interns, other senators and public figures, and friends. The primary interviewer was Hugh Cates, a public relations manager at Southern Bell and secretary of the Russell Foundation (1977-1981). Most of the interviews were recorded between 1971 and 1979, but the majority during 1971 after Senator Russell's death. Other interviewers include: William Stueck, Karen Kelly, Barboura Raesly, Robert G. Stephens, Jr., Dwight L. Freshley, Tom Jackson, Angus Hepburn, and Russell Library staff. Interviews provide insight into Senator Russell's political career as State Representative, Governor, and U.S. Senator, his views on various topics such as civil rights and Vietnam, and his personality and family life.<br /><br /><a href="http://georgiaoralhistory.libs.uga.edu/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=&range=&collection=23&type=&tags=OHMS&featured=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">View all OHMS indexed interviews in this collection here.</a>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1971-2002
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Oral histories
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL216RBROH
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Georgia
Hyperlink
A link, or reference, to another resource on the Internet.
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
Transcript, 41 pages
Repository
Name of repository the interview is from
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL216RBROH-082
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Roy V. Harris, February 24, 1971
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1971-02-24
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Roy Vincent Harris
Description
An account of the resource
Interview with Roy Vincent Harris, Georgia Representative and Georgia Senator. Topics include Jimmy Carter; Communism; Dwight D. Eisenhower; Georgia House of Representatives; Lyndon B. Johnson; John F. Kennedy; Presidential elections (1952); Franklin D. Roosevelt; University System of Georgia Board of Regents; U.S. Senate elections (1932, 1936, 1966); World War, 1939-1945.
Subject
The topic of the resource
Federal government--United States
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
United States
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
oral histories
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
sound
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Richard B. Russell, Jr. Oral History Project
Subject
The topic of the resource
United States--Officials and employees
State governments--Officials and employees
Politics and Public Policy
Description
An account of the resource
The Richard B. Russell, Jr. Oral History Project consists of 175 oral history interviews relating to the personal and political life of Richard B. Russell. Interviewees include members of the Russell family, his staff and interns, other senators and public figures, and friends. The primary interviewer was Hugh Cates, a public relations manager at Southern Bell and secretary of the Russell Foundation (1977-1981). Most of the interviews were recorded between 1971 and 1979, but the majority during 1971 after Senator Russell's death. Other interviewers include: William Stueck, Karen Kelly, Barboura Raesly, Robert G. Stephens, Jr., Dwight L. Freshley, Tom Jackson, Angus Hepburn, and Russell Library staff. Interviews provide insight into Senator Russell's political career as State Representative, Governor, and U.S. Senator, his views on various topics such as civil rights and Vietnam, and his personality and family life.<br /><br /><a href="http://georgiaoralhistory.libs.uga.edu/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=&range=&collection=23&type=&tags=OHMS&featured=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">View all OHMS indexed interviews in this collection here.</a>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1971-2002
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Oral histories
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL216RBROH
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Georgia
Hyperlink
A link, or reference, to another resource on the Internet.
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
Transcript, 51 pages
Repository
Name of repository the interview is from
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL216RBROH-087
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Spencer Monroe Grayson, February 25, 1971
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1971-02-25
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Spencer Monroe Grayson
Description
An account of the resource
Interview with Spencer Monroe Grayson, U.S. Magistrate. Topics include anecdotes of Senator Russell; Lawrence Camp; Jimmy Carter; Civil Rights; Walter F. George; Georgia Bar Association; Georgia Governor's Election (1930, 1970); Georgia Politics and Government; Douglas MacArthur; Presidents Election (1952); Franklin Delano Roosevelt; Russell's social life, personality, character; U. S. Senate Election (1932, 1936).
Subject
The topic of the resource
Federal government--United States
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
United States
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
oral histories
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
sound
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Richard B. Russell, Jr. Oral History Project
Subject
The topic of the resource
United States--Officials and employees
State governments--Officials and employees
Politics and Public Policy
Description
An account of the resource
The Richard B. Russell, Jr. Oral History Project consists of 175 oral history interviews relating to the personal and political life of Richard B. Russell. Interviewees include members of the Russell family, his staff and interns, other senators and public figures, and friends. The primary interviewer was Hugh Cates, a public relations manager at Southern Bell and secretary of the Russell Foundation (1977-1981). Most of the interviews were recorded between 1971 and 1979, but the majority during 1971 after Senator Russell's death. Other interviewers include: William Stueck, Karen Kelly, Barboura Raesly, Robert G. Stephens, Jr., Dwight L. Freshley, Tom Jackson, Angus Hepburn, and Russell Library staff. Interviews provide insight into Senator Russell's political career as State Representative, Governor, and U.S. Senator, his views on various topics such as civil rights and Vietnam, and his personality and family life.<br /><br /><a href="http://georgiaoralhistory.libs.uga.edu/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=&range=&collection=23&type=&tags=OHMS&featured=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">View all OHMS indexed interviews in this collection here.</a>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1971-2002
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Oral histories
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL216RBROH
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Georgia
Hyperlink
A link, or reference, to another resource on the Internet.
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
Transcript, 11 pages
Repository
Name of repository the interview is from
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL216RBROH-095
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Anne Campbell Prichard, March 2, 1971
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1971-03-02
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Anne Campbell Prichard
Description
An account of the resource
Interview with Anne Campbell Prichard, receptionist in Russell's office. Topics include Lyndon B. Johnson; George M. Patton; Robert Russell; U.S. Senate election (1966).
Subject
The topic of the resource
Federal government--United States
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
United States
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
oral histories
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
sound
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Richard B. Russell, Jr. Oral History Project
Subject
The topic of the resource
United States--Officials and employees
State governments--Officials and employees
Politics and Public Policy
Description
An account of the resource
The Richard B. Russell, Jr. Oral History Project consists of 175 oral history interviews relating to the personal and political life of Richard B. Russell. Interviewees include members of the Russell family, his staff and interns, other senators and public figures, and friends. The primary interviewer was Hugh Cates, a public relations manager at Southern Bell and secretary of the Russell Foundation (1977-1981). Most of the interviews were recorded between 1971 and 1979, but the majority during 1971 after Senator Russell's death. Other interviewers include: William Stueck, Karen Kelly, Barboura Raesly, Robert G. Stephens, Jr., Dwight L. Freshley, Tom Jackson, Angus Hepburn, and Russell Library staff. Interviews provide insight into Senator Russell's political career as State Representative, Governor, and U.S. Senator, his views on various topics such as civil rights and Vietnam, and his personality and family life.<br /><br /><a href="http://georgiaoralhistory.libs.uga.edu/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=&range=&collection=23&type=&tags=OHMS&featured=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">View all OHMS indexed interviews in this collection here.</a>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1971-2002
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Oral histories
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL216RBROH
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Georgia
Hyperlink
A link, or reference, to another resource on the Internet.
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
Transcript, 6 pages
Repository
Name of repository the interview is from
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL216RBROH-097
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Craig MacArthur Hosmer, March 2, 1971
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1971-03-02
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Craig MacArthur Hosmer
Description
An account of the resource
Interview with Craign MacArthur Hosmer, legislative aide in the office of Senator Russell. Topics include civil rights; U.S. Senate.
Subject
The topic of the resource
Federal government--United States
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
United States
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
oral histories
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
sound
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Richard B. Russell, Jr. Oral History Project
Subject
The topic of the resource
United States--Officials and employees
State governments--Officials and employees
Politics and Public Policy
Description
An account of the resource
The Richard B. Russell, Jr. Oral History Project consists of 175 oral history interviews relating to the personal and political life of Richard B. Russell. Interviewees include members of the Russell family, his staff and interns, other senators and public figures, and friends. The primary interviewer was Hugh Cates, a public relations manager at Southern Bell and secretary of the Russell Foundation (1977-1981). Most of the interviews were recorded between 1971 and 1979, but the majority during 1971 after Senator Russell's death. Other interviewers include: William Stueck, Karen Kelly, Barboura Raesly, Robert G. Stephens, Jr., Dwight L. Freshley, Tom Jackson, Angus Hepburn, and Russell Library staff. Interviews provide insight into Senator Russell's political career as State Representative, Governor, and U.S. Senator, his views on various topics such as civil rights and Vietnam, and his personality and family life.<br /><br /><a href="http://georgiaoralhistory.libs.uga.edu/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=&range=&collection=23&type=&tags=OHMS&featured=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">View all OHMS indexed interviews in this collection here.</a>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1971-2002
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Oral histories
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL216RBROH
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Georgia
Hyperlink
A link, or reference, to another resource on the Internet.
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
Transcript, 17 pages
Repository
Name of repository the interview is from
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL216RBROH-114
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Robert A. Brenkworth, March 4, 1971
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1971-03-04
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Robert Anthony Brenkworth
Description
An account of the resource
Interview with Robert A. Brenkworth, Comptroller, U.S. Senate (1969-1973). Topics include anecdotes of Senator Russell; Battleships--USS New Jersey; U. S. Senate; Vietnam Conflict, 1961-1975.
Subject
The topic of the resource
Federal government--United States
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
United States
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
oral histories
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
sound
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Richard B. Russell, Jr. Oral History Project
Subject
The topic of the resource
United States--Officials and employees
State governments--Officials and employees
Politics and Public Policy
Description
An account of the resource
The Richard B. Russell, Jr. Oral History Project consists of 175 oral history interviews relating to the personal and political life of Richard B. Russell. Interviewees include members of the Russell family, his staff and interns, other senators and public figures, and friends. The primary interviewer was Hugh Cates, a public relations manager at Southern Bell and secretary of the Russell Foundation (1977-1981). Most of the interviews were recorded between 1971 and 1979, but the majority during 1971 after Senator Russell's death. Other interviewers include: William Stueck, Karen Kelly, Barboura Raesly, Robert G. Stephens, Jr., Dwight L. Freshley, Tom Jackson, Angus Hepburn, and Russell Library staff. Interviews provide insight into Senator Russell's political career as State Representative, Governor, and U.S. Senator, his views on various topics such as civil rights and Vietnam, and his personality and family life.<br /><br /><a href="http://georgiaoralhistory.libs.uga.edu/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=&range=&collection=23&type=&tags=OHMS&featured=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">View all OHMS indexed interviews in this collection here.</a>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1971-2002
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Oral histories
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL216RBROH
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Georgia
Hyperlink
A link, or reference, to another resource on the Internet.
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
Transcript, 21 pages
Repository
Name of repository the interview is from
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL216RBROH-118
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Felton Johnston, March 4, 1971
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1971-03-04
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Felton Johnston
Description
An account of the resource
Interview with Felton Johnston, Secretary for the U.S. Senate. Topics include Dwight D. Eisenhower; John F. Kennedy; Lyndon B. Johnson; Richard M. Nixon; Parliamentary practices; Presidential elections (1948, 1952); Franklin D. Roosevelt; Harry S. Truman; U.S. Senate election (1966); Warren Commission.
Subject
The topic of the resource
Federal government--United States
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
United States
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
oral histories
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
sound
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Richard B. Russell, Jr. Oral History Project
Subject
The topic of the resource
United States--Officials and employees
State governments--Officials and employees
Politics and Public Policy
Description
An account of the resource
The Richard B. Russell, Jr. Oral History Project consists of 175 oral history interviews relating to the personal and political life of Richard B. Russell. Interviewees include members of the Russell family, his staff and interns, other senators and public figures, and friends. The primary interviewer was Hugh Cates, a public relations manager at Southern Bell and secretary of the Russell Foundation (1977-1981). Most of the interviews were recorded between 1971 and 1979, but the majority during 1971 after Senator Russell's death. Other interviewers include: William Stueck, Karen Kelly, Barboura Raesly, Robert G. Stephens, Jr., Dwight L. Freshley, Tom Jackson, Angus Hepburn, and Russell Library staff. Interviews provide insight into Senator Russell's political career as State Representative, Governor, and U.S. Senator, his views on various topics such as civil rights and Vietnam, and his personality and family life.<br /><br /><a href="http://georgiaoralhistory.libs.uga.edu/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=&range=&collection=23&type=&tags=OHMS&featured=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">View all OHMS indexed interviews in this collection here.</a>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1971-2002
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Oral histories
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL216RBROH
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Georgia
Hyperlink
A link, or reference, to another resource on the Internet.
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
Transcript, 21 pages
Repository
Name of repository the interview is from
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL216RBROH-119
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Felton Johnston, March 4, 1971
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1971-03-04
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Felton Johnston
Description
An account of the resource
Interview with Felton Johnston, Secretary for the U.S. Senate. Topics include Dwight D. Eisenhower; John F. Kennedy; Lyndon B. Johnson; Richard M. Nixon; Parliamentary practices; Presidential elections (1948, 1952); Franklin D. Roosevelt; Harry S. Truman; U.S. Senate election (1966); Warren Commission.
Subject
The topic of the resource
Federal government--United States
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
United States
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
oral histories
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
sound
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Richard B. Russell, Jr. Oral History Project
Subject
The topic of the resource
United States--Officials and employees
State governments--Officials and employees
Politics and Public Policy
Description
An account of the resource
The Richard B. Russell, Jr. Oral History Project consists of 175 oral history interviews relating to the personal and political life of Richard B. Russell. Interviewees include members of the Russell family, his staff and interns, other senators and public figures, and friends. The primary interviewer was Hugh Cates, a public relations manager at Southern Bell and secretary of the Russell Foundation (1977-1981). Most of the interviews were recorded between 1971 and 1979, but the majority during 1971 after Senator Russell's death. Other interviewers include: William Stueck, Karen Kelly, Barboura Raesly, Robert G. Stephens, Jr., Dwight L. Freshley, Tom Jackson, Angus Hepburn, and Russell Library staff. Interviews provide insight into Senator Russell's political career as State Representative, Governor, and U.S. Senator, his views on various topics such as civil rights and Vietnam, and his personality and family life.<br /><br /><a href="http://georgiaoralhistory.libs.uga.edu/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=&range=&collection=23&type=&tags=OHMS&featured=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">View all OHMS indexed interviews in this collection here.</a>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1971-2002
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Oral histories
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL216RBROH
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Georgia
Hyperlink
A link, or reference, to another resource on the Internet.
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
Transcript, 20 pages
Repository
Name of repository the interview is from
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL216RBROH-120
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Floyd M. Riddick, March 5, 1971
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1971-03-05
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Floyd Millard Riddick
Description
An account of the resource
Interview with Floyd M. Riddick, Parliamentarian, U.S. Senate. Topics include Civil rights; Cloture; Filibustering; Douglas MacArthur; Parliamentary practices; U.S. Senate.
Subject
The topic of the resource
Federal government--United States
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
United States
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
oral histories
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
sound
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Richard B. Russell, Jr. Oral History Project
Subject
The topic of the resource
United States--Officials and employees
State governments--Officials and employees
Politics and Public Policy
Description
An account of the resource
The Richard B. Russell, Jr. Oral History Project consists of 175 oral history interviews relating to the personal and political life of Richard B. Russell. Interviewees include members of the Russell family, his staff and interns, other senators and public figures, and friends. The primary interviewer was Hugh Cates, a public relations manager at Southern Bell and secretary of the Russell Foundation (1977-1981). Most of the interviews were recorded between 1971 and 1979, but the majority during 1971 after Senator Russell's death. Other interviewers include: William Stueck, Karen Kelly, Barboura Raesly, Robert G. Stephens, Jr., Dwight L. Freshley, Tom Jackson, Angus Hepburn, and Russell Library staff. Interviews provide insight into Senator Russell's political career as State Representative, Governor, and U.S. Senator, his views on various topics such as civil rights and Vietnam, and his personality and family life.<br /><br /><a href="http://georgiaoralhistory.libs.uga.edu/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=&range=&collection=23&type=&tags=OHMS&featured=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">View all OHMS indexed interviews in this collection here.</a>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1971-2002
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Oral histories
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL216RBROH
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Georgia
Hyperlink
A link, or reference, to another resource on the Internet.
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
Transcript, 43 pages
Repository
Name of repository the interview is from
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL216RBROH-121
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with John T. Carlton, March 5, 1971
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1971-03-05
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
John Thomas Carlton
Description
An account of the resource
Interview with Colonel John T. Carlton, Executive Director of the Reserve Officers Association, 1957-1971. Topics include anecdotes of Senator Russell; Lyndon Baines Johnson; Judges; Douglas MacArthur; Presidents Election (1952); Franklin Delano Roosevelt; U. S. Senators Walter George and George Smathers; Harry S. Truman.
Subject
The topic of the resource
Federal government--United States
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
United States
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
oral histories
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
sound
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Richard B. Russell, Jr. Oral History Project
Subject
The topic of the resource
United States--Officials and employees
State governments--Officials and employees
Politics and Public Policy
Description
An account of the resource
The Richard B. Russell, Jr. Oral History Project consists of 175 oral history interviews relating to the personal and political life of Richard B. Russell. Interviewees include members of the Russell family, his staff and interns, other senators and public figures, and friends. The primary interviewer was Hugh Cates, a public relations manager at Southern Bell and secretary of the Russell Foundation (1977-1981). Most of the interviews were recorded between 1971 and 1979, but the majority during 1971 after Senator Russell's death. Other interviewers include: William Stueck, Karen Kelly, Barboura Raesly, Robert G. Stephens, Jr., Dwight L. Freshley, Tom Jackson, Angus Hepburn, and Russell Library staff. Interviews provide insight into Senator Russell's political career as State Representative, Governor, and U.S. Senator, his views on various topics such as civil rights and Vietnam, and his personality and family life.<br /><br /><a href="http://georgiaoralhistory.libs.uga.edu/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=&range=&collection=23&type=&tags=OHMS&featured=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">View all OHMS indexed interviews in this collection here.</a>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1971-2002
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Oral histories
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL216RBROH
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Georgia
Hyperlink
A link, or reference, to another resource on the Internet.
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
Transcript, 24 pages
Repository
Name of repository the interview is from
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL216RBROH-124
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with John A. Goldsmith, March 6, 1971
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1971-03-06
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
John A. Goldsmith
Description
An account of the resource
Interview John Alan Goldsmith, professional staff member, U.S. Senate Armed Services Committee. Topics anecdotes of Senator Russell; Civil Rights; Lyndon Baines Johnson; Douglas MacArthur; Presidents Election (1952); Relationship with Russell as a reporter, Russell's legislative skills; Admiral Lewis Strauss; U. S. Judges; U. S. Warren Commission; Earl Warren.
Subject
The topic of the resource
Federal government--United States
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
United States
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
oral histories
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
sound
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Richard B. Russell, Jr. Oral History Project
Subject
The topic of the resource
United States--Officials and employees
State governments--Officials and employees
Politics and Public Policy
Description
An account of the resource
The Richard B. Russell, Jr. Oral History Project consists of 175 oral history interviews relating to the personal and political life of Richard B. Russell. Interviewees include members of the Russell family, his staff and interns, other senators and public figures, and friends. The primary interviewer was Hugh Cates, a public relations manager at Southern Bell and secretary of the Russell Foundation (1977-1981). Most of the interviews were recorded between 1971 and 1979, but the majority during 1971 after Senator Russell's death. Other interviewers include: William Stueck, Karen Kelly, Barboura Raesly, Robert G. Stephens, Jr., Dwight L. Freshley, Tom Jackson, Angus Hepburn, and Russell Library staff. Interviews provide insight into Senator Russell's political career as State Representative, Governor, and U.S. Senator, his views on various topics such as civil rights and Vietnam, and his personality and family life.<br /><br /><a href="http://georgiaoralhistory.libs.uga.edu/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=&range=&collection=23&type=&tags=OHMS&featured=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">View all OHMS indexed interviews in this collection here.</a>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1971-2002
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Oral histories
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL216RBROH
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Georgia
Hyperlink
A link, or reference, to another resource on the Internet.
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
Transcript, 11 pages
Repository
Name of repository the interview is from
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL216RBROH-130
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Otis A. Brumby Jr., March 23, 1971
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1971-03-23
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Otis A. Brumby, Jr.
Description
An account of the resource
Interview with Otis A.Brumby Jr., Attorney at Law, Newspaper Publisher, Senate Page. Topics include Aircraft Industry--Georgia; Anecdotes of Senator Russell; Lyndon Baines Johnson; Presidents election (1952); U. S. Senate Page program; U. S. Senate Election (1955).
Subject
The topic of the resource
Federal government--United States
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
United States
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
oral histories
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
sound
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Richard B. Russell, Jr. Oral History Project
Subject
The topic of the resource
United States--Officials and employees
State governments--Officials and employees
Politics and Public Policy
Description
An account of the resource
The Richard B. Russell, Jr. Oral History Project consists of 175 oral history interviews relating to the personal and political life of Richard B. Russell. Interviewees include members of the Russell family, his staff and interns, other senators and public figures, and friends. The primary interviewer was Hugh Cates, a public relations manager at Southern Bell and secretary of the Russell Foundation (1977-1981). Most of the interviews were recorded between 1971 and 1979, but the majority during 1971 after Senator Russell's death. Other interviewers include: William Stueck, Karen Kelly, Barboura Raesly, Robert G. Stephens, Jr., Dwight L. Freshley, Tom Jackson, Angus Hepburn, and Russell Library staff. Interviews provide insight into Senator Russell's political career as State Representative, Governor, and U.S. Senator, his views on various topics such as civil rights and Vietnam, and his personality and family life.<br /><br /><a href="http://georgiaoralhistory.libs.uga.edu/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=&range=&collection=23&type=&tags=OHMS&featured=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">View all OHMS indexed interviews in this collection here.</a>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1971-2002
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Oral histories
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL216RBROH
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Georgia
Hyperlink
A link, or reference, to another resource on the Internet.
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
Transcript, 51 pages
Repository
Name of repository the interview is from
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL216RBROH-132
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Harry Dwoskin, March 26, 1971
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1971-03-26
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Harry Dwoskin
Description
An account of the resource
Interview with Harry Dwoskin, personal friend. Topics include personal anecdotes of Senator Russell; Abraham Ribicoff; Atlanta Jewish Community; Madame Chiang Kai-Chek; Friendship with Russell and family; State of Israel; Lyndon Baines Johnson; Lee Harvey Oswald; Carl Sanders; U. S. Warren Commission; Vietnam Conflict, 1961-1975.
Subject
The topic of the resource
Federal government--United States
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
United States
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
oral histories
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
sound
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Richard B. Russell, Jr. Oral History Project
Subject
The topic of the resource
United States--Officials and employees
State governments--Officials and employees
Politics and Public Policy
Description
An account of the resource
The Richard B. Russell, Jr. Oral History Project consists of 175 oral history interviews relating to the personal and political life of Richard B. Russell. Interviewees include members of the Russell family, his staff and interns, other senators and public figures, and friends. The primary interviewer was Hugh Cates, a public relations manager at Southern Bell and secretary of the Russell Foundation (1977-1981). Most of the interviews were recorded between 1971 and 1979, but the majority during 1971 after Senator Russell's death. Other interviewers include: William Stueck, Karen Kelly, Barboura Raesly, Robert G. Stephens, Jr., Dwight L. Freshley, Tom Jackson, Angus Hepburn, and Russell Library staff. Interviews provide insight into Senator Russell's political career as State Representative, Governor, and U.S. Senator, his views on various topics such as civil rights and Vietnam, and his personality and family life.<br /><br /><a href="http://georgiaoralhistory.libs.uga.edu/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=&range=&collection=23&type=&tags=OHMS&featured=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">View all OHMS indexed interviews in this collection here.</a>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1971-2002
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Oral histories
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL216RBROH
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Georgia
Hyperlink
A link, or reference, to another resource on the Internet.
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
Transcript, 20 pages
Repository
Name of repository the interview is from
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL216RBROH-133
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Luck C. Flanders Gambrell, March 30, 1971
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1971-03-30
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Luck Coleman Flanders Gambrell
Description
An account of the resource
Interview with Luck Coleman Flanders Gambrell, wife of U.S. Senator David Henry Gambrell (D-Georgia). Topics include anecdotes of Senator Russell; David Gambrell's appointment as U. S. Senator to succeed Russell; Presidents election (1952); She and her husband's relationship with Russell; Russell's funeral; Russell's qualities.
Subject
The topic of the resource
Federal government--United States
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
United States
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
oral histories
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
sound
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Richard B. Russell, Jr. Oral History Project
Subject
The topic of the resource
United States--Officials and employees
State governments--Officials and employees
Politics and Public Policy
Description
An account of the resource
The Richard B. Russell, Jr. Oral History Project consists of 175 oral history interviews relating to the personal and political life of Richard B. Russell. Interviewees include members of the Russell family, his staff and interns, other senators and public figures, and friends. The primary interviewer was Hugh Cates, a public relations manager at Southern Bell and secretary of the Russell Foundation (1977-1981). Most of the interviews were recorded between 1971 and 1979, but the majority during 1971 after Senator Russell's death. Other interviewers include: William Stueck, Karen Kelly, Barboura Raesly, Robert G. Stephens, Jr., Dwight L. Freshley, Tom Jackson, Angus Hepburn, and Russell Library staff. Interviews provide insight into Senator Russell's political career as State Representative, Governor, and U.S. Senator, his views on various topics such as civil rights and Vietnam, and his personality and family life.<br /><br /><a href="http://georgiaoralhistory.libs.uga.edu/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=&range=&collection=23&type=&tags=OHMS&featured=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">View all OHMS indexed interviews in this collection here.</a>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1971-2002
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Oral histories
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL216RBROH
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Georgia
Hyperlink
A link, or reference, to another resource on the Internet.
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
Transcript, 14 pages
Repository
Name of repository the interview is from
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL216RBROH-142
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Roman Lee Hruska, April 19, 1971
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1971-04-19
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Roman Lee Hruska
Description
An account of the resource
Interview with Roman Lee Hruska, U.S. Senator (R-Nebraska). Topics include anecdotes of Senator Russell; Parliamentary practices; U.S. Senate.
Subject
The topic of the resource
Federal government--United States
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
United States
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
oral histories
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
sound
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Richard B. Russell, Jr. Oral History Project
Subject
The topic of the resource
United States--Officials and employees
State governments--Officials and employees
Politics and Public Policy
Description
An account of the resource
The Richard B. Russell, Jr. Oral History Project consists of 175 oral history interviews relating to the personal and political life of Richard B. Russell. Interviewees include members of the Russell family, his staff and interns, other senators and public figures, and friends. The primary interviewer was Hugh Cates, a public relations manager at Southern Bell and secretary of the Russell Foundation (1977-1981). Most of the interviews were recorded between 1971 and 1979, but the majority during 1971 after Senator Russell's death. Other interviewers include: William Stueck, Karen Kelly, Barboura Raesly, Robert G. Stephens, Jr., Dwight L. Freshley, Tom Jackson, Angus Hepburn, and Russell Library staff. Interviews provide insight into Senator Russell's political career as State Representative, Governor, and U.S. Senator, his views on various topics such as civil rights and Vietnam, and his personality and family life.<br /><br /><a href="http://georgiaoralhistory.libs.uga.edu/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=&range=&collection=23&type=&tags=OHMS&featured=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">View all OHMS indexed interviews in this collection here.</a>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1971-2002
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Oral histories
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL216RBROH
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Georgia
Hyperlink
A link, or reference, to another resource on the Internet.
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
Transcript, 2 pages
Repository
Name of repository the interview is from
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL216RBROH-145
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Robert W. Packwood, April 27, 1971
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1971-04-27
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Robert William Packwood
Description
An account of the resource
Interview with Robert W. Packwood, U.S. Senator (R-Oregon). Topics include Edward Kennedy; U.S. Senate.
Subject
The topic of the resource
Federal government--United States
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
United States
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
oral histories
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
sound
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Richard B. Russell, Jr. Oral History Project
Subject
The topic of the resource
United States--Officials and employees
State governments--Officials and employees
Politics and Public Policy
Description
An account of the resource
The Richard B. Russell, Jr. Oral History Project consists of 175 oral history interviews relating to the personal and political life of Richard B. Russell. Interviewees include members of the Russell family, his staff and interns, other senators and public figures, and friends. The primary interviewer was Hugh Cates, a public relations manager at Southern Bell and secretary of the Russell Foundation (1977-1981). Most of the interviews were recorded between 1971 and 1979, but the majority during 1971 after Senator Russell's death. Other interviewers include: William Stueck, Karen Kelly, Barboura Raesly, Robert G. Stephens, Jr., Dwight L. Freshley, Tom Jackson, Angus Hepburn, and Russell Library staff. Interviews provide insight into Senator Russell's political career as State Representative, Governor, and U.S. Senator, his views on various topics such as civil rights and Vietnam, and his personality and family life.<br /><br /><a href="http://georgiaoralhistory.libs.uga.edu/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=&range=&collection=23&type=&tags=OHMS&featured=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">View all OHMS indexed interviews in this collection here.</a>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1971-2002
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Oral histories
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL216RBROH
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Georgia
Hyperlink
A link, or reference, to another resource on the Internet.
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
Transcript, 4 pages
Repository
Name of repository the interview is from
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL216RBROH-150
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Robert L. Riggs, April 30, 1971
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1971-04-30
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Robert Langmuir Riggs
Description
An account of the resource
Interview with Robert L. Riggs, journalist. Topics include presidential election (1952).
Subject
The topic of the resource
Federal government--United States
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
United States
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
oral histories
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
sound
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Richard B. Russell, Jr. Oral History Project
Subject
The topic of the resource
United States--Officials and employees
State governments--Officials and employees
Politics and Public Policy
Description
An account of the resource
The Richard B. Russell, Jr. Oral History Project consists of 175 oral history interviews relating to the personal and political life of Richard B. Russell. Interviewees include members of the Russell family, his staff and interns, other senators and public figures, and friends. The primary interviewer was Hugh Cates, a public relations manager at Southern Bell and secretary of the Russell Foundation (1977-1981). Most of the interviews were recorded between 1971 and 1979, but the majority during 1971 after Senator Russell's death. Other interviewers include: William Stueck, Karen Kelly, Barboura Raesly, Robert G. Stephens, Jr., Dwight L. Freshley, Tom Jackson, Angus Hepburn, and Russell Library staff. Interviews provide insight into Senator Russell's political career as State Representative, Governor, and U.S. Senator, his views on various topics such as civil rights and Vietnam, and his personality and family life.<br /><br /><a href="http://georgiaoralhistory.libs.uga.edu/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=&range=&collection=23&type=&tags=OHMS&featured=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">View all OHMS indexed interviews in this collection here.</a>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1971-2002
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Oral histories
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL216RBROH
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Georgia
Hyperlink
A link, or reference, to another resource on the Internet.
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
Transcript, 22 pages
Repository
Name of repository the interview is from
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL216RBROH-153
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Wuckliffe Austin Knox Jr., February 24, 1971
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1971-02-24
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Wyckliffe Austin Knox, Jr.
Description
An account of the resource
Interview with Wyckliffe Austin Knox Jr., student patronage (intern). Topics include Jimmy Carter; Georgia gubernatorial election (1970); John F. Kennedy; Robert Kennedy; Richard B. Russell Foundation; U. S. Senate election (1966).
Subject
The topic of the resource
Federal government--United States
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
United States
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
oral histories
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
sound
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Richard B. Russell, Jr. Oral History Project
Subject
The topic of the resource
United States--Officials and employees
State governments--Officials and employees
Politics and Public Policy
Description
An account of the resource
The Richard B. Russell, Jr. Oral History Project consists of 175 oral history interviews relating to the personal and political life of Richard B. Russell. Interviewees include members of the Russell family, his staff and interns, other senators and public figures, and friends. The primary interviewer was Hugh Cates, a public relations manager at Southern Bell and secretary of the Russell Foundation (1977-1981). Most of the interviews were recorded between 1971 and 1979, but the majority during 1971 after Senator Russell's death. Other interviewers include: William Stueck, Karen Kelly, Barboura Raesly, Robert G. Stephens, Jr., Dwight L. Freshley, Tom Jackson, Angus Hepburn, and Russell Library staff. Interviews provide insight into Senator Russell's political career as State Representative, Governor, and U.S. Senator, his views on various topics such as civil rights and Vietnam, and his personality and family life.<br /><br /><a href="http://georgiaoralhistory.libs.uga.edu/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=&range=&collection=23&type=&tags=OHMS&featured=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">View all OHMS indexed interviews in this collection here.</a>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1971-2002
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Oral histories
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL216RBROH
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Georgia
Hyperlink
A link, or reference, to another resource on the Internet.
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
63 minutes
URL
<h3><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><a href="http://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL216RBROH-154/audio" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Access Interview </a></span></h3>
Repository
Name of repository the interview is from
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL216RBROH-154
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Gerald R. Ford, July 10, 1978
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1978-07-10
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Gerald R. Ford
Hugh Cates
Description
An account of the resource
Interview with Gerald R. Ford, United States President (1974-1977). Topics include Dwight David Eisenhower; Joint Military Appropriations Committee; Korean Armistice; Richard M. Nixon; Presidents Election (1952); Russell's contributions to nation and Senate; 21-day rule; U. S. Constitutional system; U. S. Warren Commission; Arthur Vandenberg.
Subject
The topic of the resource
Federal government--United States
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
United States
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
oral histories
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
sound