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Dublin Core
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Title
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Dean Rusk Oral History Collection
Subject
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United States--Officials and employees
Politics and Public Policy
Description
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The collection consists of 172 oral history interviews with Dean Rusk and his colleagues between 1984-1989. Includes audiotapes and transcriptions documenting Rusk's life from early childhood in the 1910's through his teaching career in the 1980's. The interviews contain information on Rusk's service as U.S. Under Secretary and Secretary of State during the administrations of Presidents Truman, Kennedy, and Johnson and his involvement in foreign relations including the Korean War, the Cuban Missile Crisis, and the Vietnam War. The interviews also document his position as president of the Rockefeller Foundation in the 1950s.<br /><br /><a href="http://georgiaoralhistory.libs.uga.edu/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=&range=&collection=14&type=&tags=OHMS&featured=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">View all OHMS indexed interviews in this collection here.</a>
Creator
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Richard Geary Rusk
Publisher
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Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1984-1989
Rights
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http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
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Oral histories
Identifier
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RBRL214DROH
Coverage
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United States
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
OHMS Object
Contains the OHMS link to the XML file within the OHMS viewer.
https://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL214DROH-RuskYYYYYY/ohms
OHMS Object Text
Contains OHMS index and/or transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable.
5.3 March 1985 Rusk YYYYYY, C. Jane Peleuses and Gus P. Mossellem, 1985 March RBRL214DROH-RuskYYYYYY RBRL214DROH Dean Rusk Oral History Collection Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies, University of Georgia Jane Peleuses Gus P. Mossellem Richard Rusk oral history 1:|14(9)|39(5)|58(8)|75(5)|98(9)|123(12)|147(9)|166(14)|183(8)|198(1)|202(15)|215(2)|225(8)|248(5)|256(14)|277(6)|286(8)|302(5)|314(4)|326(12)|334(1)|347(9)|371(2)|392(13)|417(4)|434(5)|454(13)|464(2)|470(4)|490(9)|505(1)|524(8)|543(8)|567(7)|595(9)|612(11)|633(3)|648(7)|660(7)|671(10)|681(11)|704(6)|721(1)|731(4)|741(13)|756(7)|772(16)|782(8)|799(4)|808(11)|819(3) 0 Kaltura video < ; iframe id=" ; kaltura_player" ; src=" ; https://cdnapisec.kaltura.com/p/1727411/sp/172741100/embedIframeJs/uiconf_id/26879422/partner_id/1727411?iframeembed=true& ; playerId=kaltura_player& ; entry_id=1_fqeqqqq6& ; flashvars[localizationCode]=en& ; flashvars[leadWithHTML5]=true& ; flashvars[sideBarContainer.plugin]=true& ; flashvars[sideBarContainer.position]=left& ; flashvars[sideBarContainer.clickToClose]=true& ; flashvars[chapters.plugin]=true& ; flashvars[chapters.layout]=vertical& ; flashvars[chapters.thumbnailRotator]=false& ; flashvars[streamSelector.plugin]=true& ; flashvars[EmbedPlayer.SpinnerTarget]=videoHolder& ; flashvars[dualScreen.plugin]=true& ; & ; wid=1_dlamrlol" ; width=" ; 400" ; height=" ; 285" ; allowfullscreen webkitallowfullscreen mozAllowFullScreen frameborder=" ; 0" ; title=" ; Kaltura Player" ; > ; < ; /iframe> ; English 54 Traditional diplomacy in Fiji / Rusk's methods of relaxation We were on a trip. Peleuses recalls Rusk drinking a traditional brew during a diplomatic trip to Fiji. He remembers having plane trouble and leaving behind James Lloyd Greenfield, Assistant Secretary of State for Public Affairs. Peleuses mentions that because Rusk could not receive secured communications during flights, that was his only time for relaxation. He explains why Rusk always had Haig & ; Haig Scotch on hand. Ernest Lindley ; Jim Greenfield 17 355 Rusk's take on security's advice / Leo Crampsey / Playing bridge with Rusk After that detail was finished was when I came on the detail with your father... Peleuses tracks his career with Rusk, mentioning that Rusk asked for more advice in the beginning, as in the case of the 1961 Flight 54 hijack. He claims that during the Cuban Missile Crisis, Rusk said the only good advice he could get was from Peleuses and security detail Leo Crampsey, who offered a retort that made Rusk laugh. Peleuses talks about Leo Crampsey and tells a story about Rusk's bridge-playing and betting. cards ; Dean Acheson ; George Ball ; leisure ; Leo Crampsey 17 751 Rusk " ; caught with his pants down" ; / Anecdotes from Moscow Test Ban Treaty meetings This is an event that really surprised and caught him completely off guard. Peleuses tells a story about a time Rusk was unexpectedly taken into a sauna by the Finnish president, and he relays an accidentally crude statement by Gromyko. He shares a story about a Russian commander drinking too much and falling on Russian emergency phones and about rusk playing ping-pong after Test Ban Treaty meetings. classless society ; Khrushchev 17 1355 Reactions to Kennedy's assassination We're talking now about the flight to Japan at the time that John [Fitzgerald] Kennedy was assassinated. Mossellem and Peleuses recall receiving the news of Kennedy's assassination on a plane, noting the single tear Rusk let out and discussing other officials' reactions. Luther Hodges 17 1593 Henry Cabot Lodge / Rusk's Vietnam visit We went to Vietnam. Peleuses discusses how powerful Henry Cabot Lodge, the ambassador to Vietnam, was during the war. He tells an illustrative anecdote to critique Lodge's secrecy as dangerous for security, and he notes that no reporters recognized the U-2s they passed. He recalls a speech during which the Viet Cong advanced toward Rusk, a flight lined by choppers to absorb fire, and Rusk's decision not to risk others' lives to visit Vietnam. helicopters ; safety ; security detail ; U-2s 17 2196 Official travels with Rusk We went to Athens and I did the advance in Athens. Peleuses tells an anecdote about Rusk's trip to the Acropolis. He talks about the need to escape reporters to relax and some officials' bad behavior on trips. Peleuses recalls President Johnson's use of obscure idioms, and he contrasts Johnson's modus operandi with Rusk's homegrown appeal and concerted efforts to connect with GIs and contact each of their families. Labouisse ; Manila 17 2621 Secretary Kissinger / Travelling with officials' dogs It was early on when he [Henry Alfred Kissinger] came in and I had been asked to be his personal assistant. Mossellem contrasts Kissinger and Rusk as Secretary of State. Peleuses recounts a tale about traveling to Jamaica with Kissinger. Peleuses notes that Kissinger preferred Secret Service to State Department security and often complicated things by bringing his dog along. Mossellem recalls her husband's wrangling of the Kennedys' dog. JFK ; official travel ; trips 17 Dean Rusk Oral History Collection Rusk YYYYYY C. Jane Mossellem and Gus Peleuses interviewed by Richard Rusk 1985 March RICHARD RUSK: I' ; m talking with Gus Peleuses, who was the security man for my dad back in those days, and Jane Mossellem, who used to be Jane Rothe and was secretary to my father 1961 through ' ; 68. There are written notes that precede this tape recording. PELEUSES: We were on a trip. Ernest [Kidder] Lindley was with us. Do you remember him? MOSSELLEM: Yes, very well. He was a speech writer. PELEUSES: He was a speech writer who used to be a writer for Newsweek. MOSSELLEM: Several magazines, but I think primarily Newsweek. PELEUSES: We stopped at the Fiji Islands. We had come all the way across from India or somewhere like that. We stopped in the Fijis and they had a ceremony there. That I' ; ll never forget because they cooked up this brew of some sort that looked like thin clay. They served it in coconut shells, and they all sat in a circle and did their thing. I thought Lindley was going to die when he drank that stuff. He was pretty old at that time. Your father sort of looked at it and blinked and gave it a shot. He blinked again. And the rest of us who weren' ; t party to this were really glad we weren' ; t party to this ceremony. We were on the fringes. MOSSELLEM: We were watching. PELEUSES: But he took it down. RICHARD RUSK: What was this brew again? PELEUSES: I don' ; t know what it was. It was some kind of a native brew, an exchange of friendship, I guess akin to smoking a peace pipe among American Indians or something like that. RICHARD RUSK: Give me the story about Jim [James Lloyd] Greenfield and the plane taking off. PELEUSES: The plane lost a fuel pump on one engine and they were going to fix it. Bert Bennington was down there. He had been in the Air Force. He had been a mechanic. Bert was down there talking to these guys and the mechanics were really getting upset about it. We were going to leave, then we weren' ; t going to leave. They had to fly a part in from Honolulu before we could leave. We were trying to make hotel arrangements. At any rate, Greenfield left the party and went off to the beach and went swimming. This was kind of funny in itself. The mechanic took a ballpeen hammer in disgust and just smacked the fuel pump as hard as he could and the thing started humming. It started. And so everybody said, " ; Okay, it' ; s fixed. We' ; re ready to go!" ; In a 707 if you can get off with four engines, if you lose one [after take off], it doesn' ; t make any difference. It keeps going. RICHARD RUSK: Each engine has its own fuel [pump]? PELEUSES: Yeah. So here we are waiting. And Greenfield isn' ; t around. And your father finally said, " ; Let' ; s go." ; And we closed the doors and we took off and left him behind. This is the Assistant Secretary of State for Public Affairs. Off we went. RICHARD RUSK: Did it cure him? MOSSELLEM: It did cure him. He was never late again. PELEUSES: Your father felt that the only time that he could really relax, ever, while he was in office, was when he was on one of these planes going across the ocean. He was locked in this metal tube and nobody could get to him. We could relax. He could relax. And everybody did relax. And that' ; s when he enjoyed playing bridge. He' ; d grab anybody who was around and sit down and play bridge. He loved to play bridge. And he would say that this is the only time that he had to himself that was real. MOSSELLEM: No phones on the airplane. RICHARD RUSK: And the radio communications would not be secure? PELEUSES: No. No way. So these were the few times while he was in office that he felt that he could really relax. And he did. And we all kind of respected that. We left him alone if he wanted to be alone. When he was here at home at night, that really didn' ; t mean anything. RICHARD RUSK: No, that' ; s true. As a matter of fact, he had a hell of a time relaxing around the house. MOSSELLEM: That' ; s because of the phone. RICHARD RUSK: He came home and the phone and the pressure. PELEUSES: On the first trip that he made overseas, somebody asked what he would like to drink--you know, in his room or in his quarters or wherever he was. And he said, " ; Haig & ; Haig pinch," ; just sort of off the top of his head. From then on, for the next eight years, not matter where in the world we went, and I mean this literally, there was always a bottle of Haig & ; Haig pinch there. And he said, " ; You know, I can drink any other scotch just as well, but people keep insisting on bringing me this." ; Just offhand remarks will set precedents for as long as a person is in office. RICHARD RUSK: I see. When you' ; re holding a job like that, the outer links pick up on whims and quirks, then it' ; s policy. PELEUSES & ; MOSSELLEM: Oh yeah. RICHARD RUSK: How do you spell that scotch? PELEUSES: The same way as the Secretary: Haig & ; Haig. It' ; s the pinch bottle. It' ; s got caved-in sides. MOSSELLEM: I don' ; t know whether it was all pinch bottles, but we always had a pinch bottle wherever we went. PELEUSES: That' ; s right. And the reason was because the first time somebody asked him, the first time he went on a trip, what he would like to drink he just said that off the top of his head. --Blair House and watching Alan [Bartlett] Shepard [Jr.] go by in the parade because Shepard had just gone up for the first time with the Mercury astronauts and sort of blooped into the ocean. He was the first one to go up. And that' ; s when [Habib] Bourguiba was here. After that detail was finished was when I came on the detail with your father, whenever that was: spring of ' ; 61. MOSSELLEM: Your first trip may have been the presidential trip to Paris and Vienna and London. PELEUSES: It well may have been. Yeah, I made that trip. MOSSELLEM: And then right after that in August the Secretary went to Paris for the Prime Minister meeting on Berlin. PELEUSES: From then on I was with him for six years except when I got married. There was a father and son team that hijacked a plane in Houston and they were on the ground making demands. Your father and I had just been to the White House and we were coming back. And he said, " ; Get in back. I want to talk to you." ; He used to do that once in a while with all of us. And up went the divider window. I didn' ; t know what was happening. They' ; d gotten the word. And he said, " ; This and this and this has happened. Do you have any ideas on how we can handle it?" ; RICHARD RUSK: So he would ask you folks for a little input now and again? PELEUSES: Oh yeah. And my immediate reaction was, " ; Who' ; s on board the plane?" ; This sort of thing. RICHARD RUSK: Well, look, you' ; d have as much insight on it as he would. You' ; re security and that' ; s definitely a security question. PELEUSES: But it was at the beginning of the administration. As the administration progressed then they weren' ; t floundering as much. But every administration does this. RICHARD RUSK: He would approach you and others around him more initially as he first came into office? PELEUSES: Right. RICHARD RUSK: And later became more institutional, more channeled? PELEUSES: Yet, later on he would still talk to us about things. During the height of the Cuban Missile Crisis, it was in the middle of the afternoon. We were coming back from the White House. We pulled into the basement and were coming up through the elevator. It was deathly still, as the elevator is. It was cruising up there. And on the elevator were George [Wildman] Ball--. RICHARD RUSK: You wouldn' ; t recall when during that thirteen-day period? PELEUSES: No. It was before the relief. The tension was really mounting. RICHARD RUSK: Had the president given his speech? PELEUSES: Not yet. I can' ; t put it in perspective exactly. In any event, as we were coming up the elevator, it was George Ball, Dean [Gooderham] Acheson who had been called back as an advisor, your dad, Leo Crampsey, security, and myself. And your dad said, apropos of nothing, " ; The only halfway decent advice" ; or something like that " ; that I' ; m getting is from these two fellows." ; RICHARD RUSK: And he pointed to you and Leo Crampsey? He was a security man? PELEUSES: Right. And without even a breath, Leo popped up and said, " ; That' ; s because you' ; ve surrounded yourself with dumb-fucks, Mr. Secretary." ; And your dad just came apart. He just started laughing so hard. And that was the first break during this period where your father started laughing. Well, needless to say, Ball and Acheson were extremely uncomfortable. I was hoping that the floor would drop out and I would get swallowed up. I thought, " ; Oh, we' ; re going to get fired." ; But your father really took it in a good way. RICHARD RUSK: Do you recall what Ball' ; s and Acheson' ; s reactions were? PELEUSES: They sort of turned red, but didn' ; t say anything else. Leo left here eventually and went over to Vietnam as the regional security officer. He and Bruce Furie ended up being decorated heroes when the Cong attempted to take over the Embassy on the night of the Tet Offensive. The two of them and one Marine guard held off this entire effort by themselves and ended up getting medals and all this sort of good stuff. Leo was a pretty tough guy. He was an ex-pro football player. He' ; s as big as that darn door. Everything he said he prefaced with " ; Duh." ; He was from the coal mines of Pennsylvania, and everything was " ; Duh." ; He played football with the Los Angeles Dons, a defunct team now. He was a lineman of some sort. As a result of his speech habits people sort of wrote Leo off, but he was sharp as could be. We were coming back from Europe somewhere, I don' ; t know where it was. I was sitting back in the back of the plane, sort of half dozing, and I got a tap on the shoulder. I looked up and there was your dad. And he said, " ; Come on." ; Do you know how he used to do that? He' ; d beckon you with his finger and sort of a twinkle in his eye. And so I jumped up and said, " ; Yes, sir." ; He said, " ; We' ; re going to play cards." ; So I went up. There was Llewellyn [E.] Thompson [Jr.] who was then ambassador to Moscow, Paul [H.] Nitze, your dad, and myself playing bridge. And here I am, a young punk kid, playing bridge with these heavies. And we were changing partners. We' ; re flying all the way across the Atlantic. And finally the steward came up and said, " ; Mr. Secretary, we' ; re landing in about twenty minutes." ; And your dad sat there and he started totaling. And he said, " ; Paul, yours is so much. Tommy yours is so much." ; And he sort of laughed and he said, " ; And mine' ; s only so much." ; And they started digging in their pockets. He handed me thirty-two dollars and I almost fell out of my chair. We were playing for money and I didn' ; t know it. I said later, " ; Don' ; t ever do that to me again." ; I was playing well, relaxed and pretty wild, and it turned out that we were playing for money, and I didn' ; t know that. This is an event that really surprised and caught him completely off guard. Effectively you could say it caught him with his pants down. We went to Finland. The Fins were having this black tie dinner for the American delegation, the president of Finland and so on. I can' ; t remember his name. We arrived in the car and the president came out and greeted him in black tie and everything. We had gone out and scouted the area first and we knew that the dining hall was straight ahead. And he took him by the arm and they made a turn and they went in and they all took a sauna before they went to dinner. And your father was completely caught off-guard by that. He simply didn' ; t expect that. RICHARD RUSK: Stripped down? Sitting there in the buff? PELEUSES: Yeah. Chatting for about twenty minutes. Then they all got dressed and went in in their black ties and went to dinner. RICHARD RUSK: He was a good sport about it I take it? PELEUSES: Oh yeah. He was very good. And the Fins fell in love with him. Someplace at home I' ; ve got a collection of pictures. Your father and your mother went to the flower market. Anybody who goes to a flower market is okay by the Fins. This made the news, you know. RICHARD RUSK: He must have been tipped off by one of his aides. PELEUSES: Well, you know, your father has a sensitivity for this sort of thing. He picks up very quickly on what the right thing is to do. Do you know the story about after the Cold War got really cold. We weren' ; t talking to each other for a long time. Finally, [Andrei Andreevich] Gromyko came to the General Assembly. And you know, your father is alleged to have said during the Cuban Missile Crisis, " ; We' ; ve been eyeball to eyeball and I think the other fellow just blinked." ; Okay, time and a half goes by. Now we' ; re at the U.N. [United Nations] in New York and the Russians invite us for dinner. We go in to dinner and at some point in the dinner there is the exchange of toasts. And Gromyko stands up and says, in his inimitable accent, " ; Mr. Secretary, I want to welcome you where once again we are balls to balls." ; And it goes on and they exchange the toast and everything and the dinner is over with. And we get in the cars and head back to the Waldorf. And I take your dad up to the suite. And he said, " ; I want everybody who was at that dinner up here right now." ; So Bert and I grab the phones and start calling everybody who was there. RICHARD RUSK: How big a delegation was it? PELEUSES: Oh, there were probably eight or ten of them, something like that. So we get everybody in there, and he turns to Bert and me and says, " ; I want everybody to have a drink." ; Everybody got a drink. And your dad said, " ; I want to tell you all how much I appreciate the fact that not one of you laughed." ; Everybody kept their cool. But that' ; s a story that' ; s never leaked out. RICHARD RUSK: Balls to balls? PELEUSES: Yeah, instead of eyeballs to eyeballs. And you know, we were never sure whether Gromyko knew what he' ; d said or not, whether it was intentional or not. His English is not that bad. We were talking about how newsies [sic] can build on something. We were talking about the spitting incident in Uruguay and how that was misreported and exaggerated. Okay, we went to Moscow for the Test Ban Treaty. A couple of things happened. I really got involved in this thing. I don' ; t remember the newsy' ; s name, but sometime before the Cuban Missile Crisis he did a show. It was a collection of stills, of paintings in Moscow, and he did them beautifully. It was about an hour long. And the person he interviewed was General Vizdyenen [?]--I can' ; t spell it for you--who was the commandant of the Kremlin. And as it happened, the Test Ban Treaty came along and we went over there for that. And General Vizdyenen [?] was still there and very active, and I recognized the name. I can' ; t remember who all was there. They all went in for the formal sit-down luncheon and the rest of us, the gunslingers-- RICHARD RUSK: Who were the gunslingers? PELEUSES: Security people. RICHARD RUSK: They called themselves gunslingers? PELEUSES: Yeah, various security people. MOSSELLEM: They had lots of other good names! PELEUSES: You know the French were there ; the British were there ; and they all had their own security. And so, Vizdyenen [?] had an interpreter. He didn' ; t speak English. This was fascinating to me. You know, the classless society--this is what I' ; m talking about. Vizdyenen [?] invited us all to have lunch with him. He had this humongous big table with gorgeous crystal and china and silver, and it was all Czar' ; s stuff, and we sat down. The first thing you do is you have oodles and oodles of brandy, and you don' ; t need that sort of stuff, but not much choice. We' ; d all decided we had to go along with--as the Russians put it, it was mir i druzhba. Every time you saw one it was " ; Mir i druzhba, Amerikanski:" ; peace and friendship. We go in and have the actual signing ceremony. Everybody had their clerical types handing them the pens and switching pens and switching papers. And the cameras were going to beat hell. And then they make speeches. General Vizdyenen [?] got so smashed at lunch that he went over sideways like a felled tree in the middle of [Nikita Sergeevich] Khrushchev' ; s speech. And what he hit was a table that was like a card table. It was full of colored telephones: a red phone, and a green phone, and a black phone. Who knows what they were! And these phones were everywhere. And all any of us could think of was, " ; Oh my god! The balloon is up! So much for the Test Ban Treaty." ; Well, they picked him up and sort of carried him off. And the interpreter from the foreign office came over and he said, " ; You must excuse Comrade Vizdyenen (?). After all, you know, he' ; s only a peasant." ; This is in the classless society! All right, we' ; re walking down this grand staircase afterward to get in the cars and go to our respective embassies. And I was feeling pretty good myself, no question about that. I was walking with your father and I looked up and I said, " ; Well boss, we did it." ; And he looked at me and he said, " ; It was a long time coming." ; He' ; d had this bothering him for a long time. I was going to tell you about how the newsies exaggerate things. From Moscow, as guests of the Russian government we went down to Sochi on the Black Sea. Gromyko met us at the airport and we got in the car with him to go to Sochi. We were pulling up into this dacha where we were to stay, to be the guests, this fantastic estate-like place in Sochi, after the Test Ban Treaty. As we' ; re pulling in the driveway, I' ; m sitting in the front seat riding shotgun. Gromyko is in the back with your dad. And he said, " ; Mr. Secretary, this once belonged to Comrade [Lavrenti P.] Beria. But don' ; t be afraid, there are no ghosts in Russia." ; Subsequently, we went over to Khrushchev' ; s dacha. Khrushchev had a ping-pong table. and the newsies posed your dad and Khrushchev for pictures. Your dad held up a ping-pong paddle and Khrushchev held up a ping-pong paddle. No more than three times did they hit that ball and the story came out that Khruschev had trounced your dad in a game of ping-pong. This idiotic stuff started coming out like this. It was always like that. It was not done to be funny. It was just, " ; The Russians are still beating us in every way" ; sort of attitude. RICHARD RUSK: That was the slant of the coverage? PELEUSES: Yeah. RICHARD RUSK: You' ; re not referring to, by any chance, instead of ping-pong, a little short match of badminton on a Persian rug? I think that might have been it. PELEUSES: Now that you say that, there was a Persian rug there. You' ; re right. RICHARD RUSK: It was badminton they played without a net and they just hit it back and forth a few times. PELEUSES: Just for the newsies sake. A photo opportunity. And they made a big thing out of it in the papers here that he lost the game and all this sort of garbage. RICHARD RUSK: I think Khruschev hit one, my dad missed it, and my dad said to him, " ; You play a very good game." ; And Khruschev beams and says, " ; It takes practice." ; Something like that. We' ; re talking now about the flight to Japan at the time that John [Fitzgerald] Kennedy was assassinated. MOSSELLEM: Right. We were just out of Honolulu, one hour. PELEUSES: Because I can remember we turned the plane around and it took us another hour to get back. MOSSELLEM: And I' ; m sure Gus described that to you as vividly as it was. I do think in the files downstairs I will have a verbatim record of what the Secretary said at that time. RICHARD RUSK: On the plane or on the ground? MOSSELLEM: On the plane. Because he received the first phone call and talked to everyone. And then that' ; s when Gus told you that several of us were going to get off in Honolulu and fly directly to Dallas because we had no idea-- RICHARD RUSK: You remembered it as being something like, " ; The king is dead and we have a new king. Long live the king." ; PELEUSES: " ; The king is dead ; long live the king," ; is the traditional thing. What I recall him saying is something like this--Jane will have it--" ; Our president is dead. We have a new president. Long live the president." ; [At this point President Lyndon Baines Johnson had been sworn in and we had been advised.] MOSSELLEM: That' ; s probably very close to it. RICHARD RUSK: If it' ; s going to be a chore digging it out, forget it. I' ; ll paraphrase it. MOSSELLEM: That' ; s very close to it. That was after the second phone call. PELEUSES: Everybody was deathly still. And I told you, we were scared stiff that [Luther Hartwell] Hodges was going to have a heart attack because he looked like he was about to have one. MOSSELLEM: He was sitting right across from us. PELEUSES: He lost his color, and we were really concerned. I was concerned about your father, but your father handled it very well. Nobody said anything. Your father left the [general passenger compartment of the] plane and he went and sat in the chair in the little compartment. MOSSELLEM: Right across from your mother, back in his compartment. PELEUSES: And he was just sitting there and a tear came down. You know, you asked me about whether your father felt these things. Yeah, I' ; ll tell you he felt them. MOSSELLEM: He put his head back, because I could see him. Gus was sitting next to me and I could just see him. That' ; s when we became a little more concerned. He was releasing his own feelings. I noticed a single tear. PELEUSES: There' ; s no question that it affected your father. It affected your mother. It affected all of us. MOSSELLEM: There was not a dry eye on the plane. PELEUSES: I told you the story of the night of the funeral, after the funeral when we were all upstairs on the eighth floor [the diplomatic reception area of the State Department]. I was standing next to the guy from Arizona, the Secretary of the Interior, [Stewart Lee] Udall. I coincidentally happened to be standing next to him. Johnson had the receiving line going and all the heavies were there from all over the world. And she [his wife] said to him, " ; Oh, Stu, we' ; ll never laugh again." ; He said, " ; No, you' ; re wrong. We' ; ll never be young again." ; And I think that was it. It killed our youth. There was a whole generation of Americans who just lost their youth overnight. There' ; s no other way to describe it. It affected all of us. RICHARD RUSK: He really appealed to the desires and dreams, the vision of country. MOSSELLEM: The entire country, young and old. RICHARD RUSK: That' ; s why Vietnam was such a bad thing in a sense, because we went from that to this other thing which was just awful. And it happened in a matter of three or four years. The unraveling of the country, we went from a position of a vibrant, hopeful-- PELEUSES: I don' ; t know if you can use this, but you just triggered another one. We went to Vietnam. The first time we went-- RICHARD RUSK: Did you go to Vietnam? MOSSELLEM: I wasn' ; t on the first trip, no. I went later, but I didn' ; t go on the first one. PELEUSES: Henry Cabot Lodge, who just died a week or two ago, we had a nickname for him. We used to call him Henry Cabbage Cod. RICHARD RUSK: He was a little bit stiff and formal, I take it? PELEUSES: Yeah. He had an Army colonel working as his security officer. There was a lot of informal institutionalization that took place in Vietnam, because of Vietnam. It wasn' ; t like any other embassy. An ambassador in Vietnam was pretty darn powerful and could run things the way he wanted to, and got what he wanted because we were deeply committed. Well, we learned from the colonel that we were going to visit an area, and we were concerned. It wasn' ; t fun and games. There was some shooting going on. And we were concerned. And we were told that we were going down to the delta. So we had made all our arrangements through our security channels with the other guys and the military to insure that there was security where we were going. And Lodge' ; s idea of security was not to tell anybody what he was doing at all. So we got in the cars in the motorcade. And we had, I think, a military bus or two of newsies. And we drove to Bien-Hoa. Do you remember the temporary buildings that were down here on the mall? Bien-Hoa airport was surrounded by two-story old military tempo-type buildings. And you drove through the building. It had a cut-out on the first floor and you drove through it. And we drove through and made a turn and down a line there were about fifteen very long-winged, droopy-winged airplanes. And I almost dropped my teeth. It was full of U-2s. Publicly we were saying we didn' ; t have U-2s over there. That had become an issue. And I turned back and looked at your father, and he sort of moved his head from side to side. And I didn' ; t say anything. What stunned me is our fantastic newsies. Not a one of them recognized a U-2 when they saw it because obviously they would have blown it sky high. It never came up. They' ; re very recognizable. Here we were, driving down a line of these damn things. RICHARD RUSK: These were for reconnaissance flights over China, the Soviet Union? PELEUSES: No, we were using them over Nam and North Vietnam, that area, in an effort to control. We weren' ; t militarily totally committed yet. We got in the plane and took off-- END OF SIDE 1 BEGINNING OF SIDE 2 PELEUSES: We got in the plane and took off and we got up to altitude and we were cruising along. They were the old DC-3, C-47s, whatever they' ; re called. They were groaning away there. Bert and I were sitting together. Your dad and Lodge sitting together talking. I was looking around. I' ; d never been in Vietnam before. Something was bothering me and I didn' ; t know what it was. I said, " ; Bert, there' ; s something wrong." ; He said, " ; What do you mean?" ; I said, " ; I don' ; t know. I can' ; t figure it out. There' ; s just something wrong." ; To make a long story short, we suddenly realized that the sun was coming in the wrong window. We were going north, weren' ; t going south to the delta. That was the first we knew that we weren' ; t going to the delta. We had all these security arrangements down in the delta and here we are going north. This was Lodge' ; s idea of security, not to tell anybody, including the Secretary, where we were going. We landed at someplace. I don' ; t recall where. Everybody got into helicopters. That was up to that point the largest helicopter operation in the Vietnam business. We all went up to this [montagnard] village up in the side of a mountain. Your dad is making a speech through an interpreter ; Lodge is making a speech through an interpreter. All these villagers are no more than--maximum height, probably the tallest guy in the gang was probably five feet two inches or five feet three inches. And your dad was over six feet. They were smiling at this fantastic white person who was towering over them. I know it kind of bothered your father as to what were these people really getting out of this sort of stuff. It was a performance for the newsies. Well, there was an Army major standing there who was assigned to the area apparently. He came up to me and he said, " ; Are you with Dean Rusk?" ; I said, " ; Yes." ; He said, " ; Boy, I really admire that man." ; I said, " ; I do, too. I work for him." ; He said, " ; You know, I really admire him." ; And I said, " ; Yeah, Major, I do, too." ; He said, " ; No, I mean I really admire him." ; And I said, " ; Major what the hell are you talking about?" ; And he pointed down the side of the mountain and here about six hundred yards away were a bunch of these little people with those little funny cone-shaped straw hats that I had never seen before. And he said, " ; Do you see those guys down there?" ; I said, " ; Yeah." ; He said, " ; That' ; s the Vietcong." ; I went over and grabbed Bert ; we grabbed your father ; and I said, " ; Mr. Secretary, it' ; s time to go." ; Your father was really super this way. If we said, " ; It' ; s time to go," ; he would go. And that was it. We had no idea where Lodge was taking us. He did things like this that really threw us for a loop. RICHARD RUSK: Were those guys armed at all? PELEUSES: I don' ; t know. But I wasn' ; t going to hang around to find out with responsibility of your father. It was interesting. I did the advance when he went to Athens for the NATO [North Atlantic Treaty Organization] meeting, obviously. [I' ; m of Greek descent.] I couldn' ; t wait to do that advance. Your dad arrived at the airport and they had the little ceremonies. RICHARD RUSK: Did you tell my dad who that was down there? PELEUSES: Maybe it' ; s something he blocked out. But, boy, we got out of there. We cut that short. RICHARD RUSK: Incidentally, and I meant to tell you a little follow-up. He made his one trip to the field in Vietnam. I think that he never went out in a field situation again. But while he was flying in this great big helicopter formation someone told him, or he asked, how many men it took to make these kinds of security arrangements for his visit out into the countryside. And he was told something like thirty battalions were drawn off the line for his security. And then he looked down from the chopper. There were choppers all the way around him and he saw two choppers skimming low over the trees down below and he asked what the purpose of that was. And those guys were down there to draw fire. When he put all that stuff together, he said, " ; No more trips to Vietnam if people are endangering their lives for the sake of my security." ; And that' ; s why he didn' ; t make any more trips. [Jane Mossellem enters conversation] PELEUSES: I was telling them about Nam and-- RUSK: Did you hear that story, Jane? MOSSELLEM: No, I didn' ; t hear that story. RUSK: It' ; s such a good story I' ; m going to tape it twice. PELEUSES: We had been told we were going down to delta. Bert and I made arrangements with the other guys and through the military and everything for security. And we drove down to Ben-Hoa, and the first thing that happened was we went by a line of U-2s, and we were saying that we had no U-2s in Vietnam. Back then we had two busloads of newsies behind us who accompanied us, and not a one of them recognized the damn planes. It never came up. It never came up. RUSK: They' ; re very recognizable. MOSSELLEM: Oh yes. RUSK: A U-2 is a U-2. PELEUSES: We got in planes and we took off and we flew away in the old DC3- whatever- C47s or whatever they' ; re called, and we' ; re going away there and Bert and I were together and your dad and Lodge were together or and something was bothering me and I didn' ; t know what it was, and I called Bert. I said " ; there' ; s something wrong." ; We kept discussing it, and we finally realized the sun was coming in the wrong window. They' ; re going South of the delta, we were going North, and this was Lodge' ; s idea of security not to tell anybody, including the secretary, where we were going. MOSSELLEM: You' ; re kidding. RUSK: Listen to this story. PELEUSES: So we arrive at this airport- I don' ; t remember where- and we all load up into choppers, a bunch of choppers. This was the biggest chopper operation up to that point. And we get in these helicopters, we take off, and we go up to the side of the mountain to this mountain yard village. And these little guys--the biggest one of the bunch was maybe 5" ; 2' ; --are there with no teeth, smiling at this fantastic white person, you know, who' ; s towering over them. Then your dad made a speech and Lodge made a speech, and this army major was standing there who' ; s assigned to the area apparently as an adviser, and he said, " ; I really admire Mr. Rusk." ; I said, " ; I do too." ; He said, " ; I really admire him," ; and he kept saying this, and I said, " ; Major, what the hell are you talking about?" ; He said, " ; Look down there." ; About 600 yards down the side of the mountain were a bunch of these little people, you know, with these straw, cone-shaped hats. He said, " ; Do you see that?" ; I said, " ; Yeah, I see that." ; He said, " ; That' ; s the Viet Cong!" ; And I went over and grabbed Bert, and Bert and I went up to the Secretary and said, " ; Mr. Secretary, it' ; s time to go." ; And he was super that way! When you' ; d say something like that--boom! on a plane he' ; d get. Okay. PELEUSES: One of the things that happened on the chopper is Lodge leaned over--there was a gunner on the chopper--Lodge leaned over and grabbed this machine gun and wheeled it up, barrel first, across everybody' ; s face. And the gunner yelled, " ; No, no, no!" ; And he grabbed the gun and pulled it away from him. And I looked at him and said, " ; What' ; s the matter?" ; He said, " ; Man, all you' ; ve got to do is touch that thing and it' ; s going to go off." ; He had it all armed and ready to go, and Lodge is picking it up trying to demonstrate it. This is the kind of craziness that was going on. Lodge used to carry a forty-five around, with his ice-cream suits: just idiotic stuff. RICHARD RUSK: Kind of macho man? PELEUSES: Yeah. MOSSELLEM: And out of control. PELEUSES: I started to tell you, we went to Athens and I did the advance in Athens. We arrived, they had the airport ceremonies and everything else. We got in the car. I was riding shotgun again. [Henry Richard] Labouisse [our ambassador to Greece at the time] said to your father, " ; Well, Mr. Secretary, we' ; re going to go up to the Acropolis right now." ; And I turned around and I said, " ; Mr. Secretary, you can' ; t go. You' ; ve got an appointment." ; And he said, " ; Right." ; And we went to the residence. And Labouisse was a little bit put out. He didn' ; t know quite what was happening. When we got to the residence--and your father was just super about things like this. If we said something like that, he really went with us. And he said, " ; What was all that about?" ; And I said, " ; There were about sixty newsies who heard him say that." ; The car hadn' ; t pulled away yet and they heard him say that. I said, " ; You want to go up there to the Acropolis with all these newsmen?" ; He said, " ; No, you' ; re right." ; So we waited about half an hour. Then we got in cars and went to the Acropolis. There were only about three cops and a couple of us and the Secretary and the ambassador. And we went out to look at the Acropolis. Here were four sailors from the sixth fleet walking along, had no idea who you father was or who any of us were. And one of them said, looking at the Parthenon, " ; Boy, isn' ; t that something?" ; And the other one said, " ; Shoot, we got one in Tennessee that ain' ; t all busted up like this." ; And your father almost fell down the steps of the Acropolis laughing. I don' ; t know if you' ; re aware that in the capital of Tennessee is a copy of the Parthenon. MOSSELLEM: These were the good moments for him when he was totally relaxed and he didn' ; t have 500 newsies around him then. He could enjoy it. PELEUSES: He could enjoy it because being on stage you' ; ve got to watch what you' ; re doing, you' ; re got to watch what you' ; re saying. You know, you can relax and really enjoy what you' ; re looking at. That was funny that time. I' ; ll never forget that sailor saying that. The presidential party went on the Southeast Asia trip. Your dad did not get to all of that. They had gone down to Australia and had stayed on a ship because no hotel was adequate, and all this sort of malarkey. The presidential party went on to KL [Kuala Lumpur] and Bangkok, and I can' ; t remember which went where. I think we went to Bangkok first and then to KL. Everybody was staying in this one hotel.. Here are all the White House types, all bragging with newsies standing around, how they' ; re all gone to cat houses the night before and paid off with LBJ [Lyndon Baines Johnson] pens. To us who had traveled before, we were stunned and appalled at the way these people were acting. We went to Manila then. The Hotel Manila was a big u-shaped affair. We were in one wing and across from the entrance in the other wing was the presidential party. The presidential science advisor--I' ; ve forgotten his name--he was a little dark-haired guy. Ed [Edward Southard] Little was on that trip. He was a Special Assistant. He and I were reading the traffic together. Just tons of it was coming in. It was about eight o' ; clock in the evening, and we had some protection: Philippine police. There was a possibility that there would be some demonstrations. Everybody was coming. He came running around the corner from his wing over to our wing carrying a paper bag. The window was open. And I said, " ; What are you going to do?" ; And he said, " ; I' ; ve got a bag full of water. I' ; m going to get me one of these cops." ; Here' ; s the presidential science advisor who' ; s going to throw a bag of water out of a hotel window on a cop that' ; s protecting this clown. I can' ; t think of his name. Anyhow, he was Lyndon Johnson' ; s science advisor, or whatever the title. In any event, it developed that we were going on a trip that was unannounced, unscheduled. We went down and flew over to Sangley Point, the Naval air station. The plane [Air Force One] was over at Sangley Point, we got on the flight and zoom, off we went to Nam. RICHARD RUSK: Unannounced? PELEUSES: That' ; s the trip you' ; re talking about. RICHARD RUSK: You went to Cam Ranh Bay. PELEUSES: Yeah, we went to Cam Ranh Bay. Johnson made his speech in a mess hall about, " ; Bring the coon skin back so we can nail it to the wall." ; And here are all these eighteen-nineteen year old kids looking at this guy and wondering what he' ; s saying, not being able to understand him. Kids are walking in who have been out on patrols for two-three days, muddy, dirty, not knowing this, coming into the mess hall and saying, " ; Who is he?" ; This was, I thought, kind of a sad commentary. Here' ; s the president of the United States making a speech and the people that he talked to didn' ; t know who he was. Your father was super on that one, too. RICHARD RUSK: Was my dad with him at that time? PELEUSES: Yeah, we were on that trip. Your father went around to the GIs [Government Issue], when they finally came awake as to who was who, and took names from anybody that he was talking to, asked them where they were from and their home phone numbers. And he came back and he called every single family of the kids that he had talked to, from the office. And he told them that he had seen their son. MOSSELLEM: He tracked every one of them down. PELEUSES: Tracked every parent, every relative down. He made a point of that. MOSSELLEM: He had notes on every kind of piece of paper in the world--napkins-- PELEUSES: He was asking us for paper. Anything he could find. What' ; s your name? Where are you from? How do I get your parents or your relatives?" ; These kids were swarming around. He was just super that way. This, again, emphasizes what I was telling you the other night about the concern. He always kept his roots. We went down to Atlanta to see your Aunt Margaret [Rusk]. He made a point of having the car go by the area where the house used to be when he was a kid. It' ; s now the site of a railroad bridge abutment or something like that. He made a point to go over there to look at it. He never lost that sense of his roots. MOSSELLEM: [On Henry Alfred Kissinger] Maybe it was early on when he came in and I had asked to be his personal assistant. I told him when I was asked to take the job that I would help him in every way that I could, that I didn' ; t want him to feel that he had to make a commitment to me initially because he might not like me at all and he may well have somebody else in mind for the job. That was not problem for me because there were lots of jobs that I could go to. We had been working together for, I would say, six months, seven months. I went on a trip with him, which I didn' ; t do very often. I traveled very little with him. I stayed at home and had a staff of twelve secretaries or so. All the girls took turns and I really stayed in Washington. I had done my fair share of traveling at that point. But he was being smart in front of an audience on one of these trips and made some comment that I had worked for Mr. Rusk for eight years and for Mr. [William Pierce] Rogers and for Mr. [Christian Archibald] Herter and part of Mr. [John Foster] Dulles' ; s time. He said, " ; How do you compare me to Dean Rusk?" ; And he kind of caught me off-guard, but he made me mad. And I said, " ; He, too, is a scholar, but he is a gentleman." ; Only because I was mad, just like that I said that. And I kind of rocked him. He never got over it. Any time he sees me in a group he will say, " ; But she will always compare me to Dean Rusk and I can' ; t compete." ; And he was absolutely right. PELEUSES: My one contact with him is quite a story. I was the administrative officer in Jamaica when Henry decided to make the trip down there over the Christmas holidays between Christmas and New Year' ; s. RICHARD RUSK: Incidentally, if I use that thing about Kissinger, if I use it, does it bother you? MOSSELLEM: Not at all. PELEUSES: No, it doesn' ; t bother me either. He went to a little town on the north coast of Jamaica. The embassy was on the south coast of Jamaica. We went out there and did security advance for the secret service. He had secret service--State Department security wasn' ; t good enough for him. I guess maybe I shouldn' ; t have said that, but what the hell. Anyhow, I went up there, and they brought the damn dog with them. Jamaica has very strict quarantine laws. RICHARD RUSK: This is Kissinger' ; s dog? MOSSELLEM: Tyler is a yellow lab. PELEUSES: What we did is, he came in on a Jet Star and we brought the nose of the other plane up like this so that they could get off from one plane directly onto the other plane so that the newsies wouldn' ; t see the damn dog. The Jamaican government was sort of turning away and pretending it wasn' ; t happening. So here I am, wrestling this goddamn dog that weighed more than I did into the other plane. And that dog has to be one of the dumbest animals I ever met. It just sort of would stand around and drool. RICHARD RUSK: Did it come down to the Department at all? MOSSELLEM: Often. I could tell you lots of stories. PELEUSES: So, I wrestle this dog into the plane and they fly to Ocho Rios. It' ; s between Christmas and New Year' ; s. I left Christmas day to go take care of them. I left the family behind. So, the Secretary of the Treasury came down, too, the guy with the glasses and the natty suits, the New York suits--I can' ; t think of his name. They stayed half a mile apart and they weren' ; t talking to each other. This was happening with the Nixon Administration. And so, they each had their own communications set-up ; they each had their own security set-up ; and there it was. MOSSELLEM: Simon, Bill [William Edward] Simon. PELEUSES: Yeah. So, the trip is finished. I' ; m at Mobay [Montego Bay] from Ocho Rios. And again we did that bit with the planes nose to nose. I wrestle this stupid animal out of this small plane into the Jet Star. Henry is over at the fence talking to the newsies. And Nancy [Sharon Kissinger] says to me, " ; Doctor, I really appreciate what you' ; ve done for us." ; And my reaction was to look over my shoulder and see who she' ; s talking to. Then I realize she' ; s talking to me and I couldn' ; t understand why she' ; s calling me doctor. And she said it a couple of times. And I finally realized she thought I was a vet because I was messing around with this damn dog. And I said, " ; Mrs. Kissinger, I' ; m not a doctor. I' ; m the administrative officer in the embassy in Kingston." ; And she turned around and she said, " ; Oh, Henry, he' ; s not a doctor at all. He' ; s only the administrative officer." ; And I thought, " ; Well, so much for me. That puts me in my place." ; That was my only meeting with them, but, boy, they' ; ll put you down where you belong. MOSSELLEM: Speaking of dogs, let me just tell you. My husband, Tom, was chief steward on Air Force One. He was flying up to Hyannis with President Kennedy and Bobby [Robert Francis] Kennedy and his black lab. Do you remember that dog? He came in the office whenever Bobby Kennedy would come. Huge dog. On whatever occasion it was, Fourth of July or something, they had the dog on board, but they had a big affair at the airport there in Hyannis. The President got off and his family and Bobby and his family were there. As soon as the President stepped off the plane, Tom had to hold the dog in the back because they didn' ; t want the dog coming off the plane until after this fanfare. As soon as the President stepped off, the band started playing " ; Hail to the Chief." ; Well, the sound got to the dog and spooked him and he went crazy. Tom had to get on top of him, put a blanket over his head. Tom, after he' ; s had several drinks, has to tell you this story, not me. He starts howling like the dog. Finally, they had to shut the door of the plane and still keep him muffled with pillows and blankets. But the dogs could take their toll. RICHARD RUSK: Do you remember when I raised all those guinea pigs at the house. MOSSELLEM: Oh yes, I do. Indeed, your mother brought some of them in to the office and I remember giving a couple of them to my nephews. My brother has never forgiven me. RICHARD RUSK: I' ; d heard that' ; s how we got rid of them. I started out with two and we ended up with about forty of them. I had built a big one-layer cage and I had to put a second layer on there. END OF SIDE 2 Resources may be used under the guidelines described by the U.S. Copyright Office in Section 107, Title 17, United States Code (Fair use). Parties interested in production or commercial use of the resources should contact the Russell Library for a fee schedule. video 0 RBRL214DROH-RuskYYYYYY.xml RBRL214DROH-RuskYYYYYY.xml http://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL214DROH/findingaid
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53 minutes
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Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
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Rusk YYYYYY, C. Jane Peleuses and Gus P. Mossellem, 1985 March
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RBRL214DROH-RuskYYYYYY
Creator
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C. Jane Peleuses
Gus P. Mossellem
Richard Rusk
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audio
oral histories
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sound
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United States
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http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
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Foreign relations
Diplomatic and consular service
Description
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C. Jane Peleuses and Gus P. Mossellem interviewed by Richard Rusk.<br /><br /><span>C. Jane Peleuses served as secretary to Rusk from 1961-1968.</span><br /><br /><span>Gus P. Mossellem served as Rusk’s security man.</span>
Date
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1985-03
OHMS
-
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Dean Rusk Oral History Collection
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United States--Officials and employees
Politics and Public Policy
Description
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The collection consists of 172 oral history interviews with Dean Rusk and his colleagues between 1984-1989. Includes audiotapes and transcriptions documenting Rusk's life from early childhood in the 1910's through his teaching career in the 1980's. The interviews contain information on Rusk's service as U.S. Under Secretary and Secretary of State during the administrations of Presidents Truman, Kennedy, and Johnson and his involvement in foreign relations including the Korean War, the Cuban Missile Crisis, and the Vietnam War. The interviews also document his position as president of the Rockefeller Foundation in the 1950s.<br /><br /><a href="http://georgiaoralhistory.libs.uga.edu/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=&range=&collection=14&type=&tags=OHMS&featured=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">View all OHMS indexed interviews in this collection here.</a>
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Richard Geary Rusk
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Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Date
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1984-1989
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http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
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Oral histories
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RBRL214DROH
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United States
Oral History
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https://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL214DROH-RuskZZZZZZ/ohms
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5.3 August 1985 Rusk ZZZZZZ, C. Jane Peleuses and Gus P. Mossellem, 1985 August RBRL214DROH-RuskZZZZZZ RBRL214DROH Dean Rusk Oral History Collection Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies, University of Georgia C. Jane Peleuses and Gus P. Mossellem Richard Rusk oral history 1:|12(8)|21(12)|41(20)|51(16)|64(6)|72(7)|83(1)|91(4)|97(9)|105(7)|115(19)|127(9)|136(4)|151(16)|160(11)|168(16)|182(2)|193(7)|205(4)|215(6)|227(10)|237(5)|251(8)|261(10)|269(9)|280(8)|292(5)|302(8)|315(4)|335(9)|354(11)|366(5)|376(6)|382(9)|389(1)|403(2)|414(8)|420(2)|426(8)|439(1)|443(9)|448(12)|462(3)|470(12)|482(7)|494(4)|508(2)|517(3)|529(5)|540(6)|556(15)|569(10)|583(1)|592(2)|598(13)|609(9)|611(12)|613(10) 0 Kaltura video < ; iframe id=" ; kaltura_player" ; src=" ; https://cdnapisec.kaltura.com/p/1727411/sp/172741100/embedIframeJs/uiconf_id/26879422/partner_id/1727411?iframeembed=true& ; playerId=kaltura_player& ; entry_id=1_v1aj3pf0& ; flashvars[localizationCode]=en& ; flashvars[leadWithHTML5]=true& ; flashvars[sideBarContainer.plugin]=true& ; flashvars[sideBarContainer.position]=left& ; flashvars[sideBarContainer.clickToClose]=true& ; flashvars[chapters.plugin]=true& ; flashvars[chapters.layout]=vertical& ; flashvars[chapters.thumbnailRotator]=false& ; flashvars[streamSelector.plugin]=true& ; flashvars[EmbedPlayer.SpinnerTarget]=videoHolder& ; flashvars[dualScreen.plugin]=true& ; & ; wid=1_jrkv6f7y" ; width=" ; 400" ; height=" ; 285" ; allowfullscreen webkitallowfullscreen mozAllowFullScreen frameborder=" ; 0" ; title=" ; Kaltura Player" ; > ; < ; /iframe> ; English 60 Rusk's relationships with Bobby Kennedy, other executives, and his staff Who's this third person you're talking about? Mossellem says Robert Kennedy, Robert Mcnamara, and McGeorge Bundy frequently came to meet with Rusk at the State Department, and comments that the Kennedy and Johnson executives got along better than those in other administrations. Mossellem highlights Rusk's personal care for and availability to his subordinates. Bill Bundy ; JFK ; LBJ ; leadership ; management ; RFK 17 465 Presidents' reliance on Rusk He's been criticized by some as not being quite up to snuff intellectually, in terms of his mental capabilities. Mossellem praises Rusk's integrity and intellect, explaining that Presidents Johnson and Kennedy valued him highly for these traits. Peleuses explains that Kennedy's avoidance of calling Rusk by his first name was a sign of respect, not distance. In contrast, he says Kennedy's apparent casualness with other officials was not friendly, but was a way of talking down to them. character ; JFK ; LBJ ; loyalty ; trust 17 879 Rusk resolves Peleuses's travel concerns / The Geneva Auto Show / Rusk's involvement in employees' personal lives You're probably right. I think where you're coming down is the humanity of the man. Peleuses talks about going to Europe on business and being unsure if he could return in time for his wedding or get reimbursed for mounting expenses. He explains that Rusk personally saw to his situation, demonstrating his care for others. Peleuses describes attending an opera in Vienna and claims that Rusk got him tickets to the Geneva Auto Show afterwards because Rusk knew he would be more interested in that. Peleuses provides other examples of Rusk going out of his way to ask after individual employees despite his busy schedule and to hold meetings with the department to address staff's personal and professional concerns. Austria ; Dominican Republic ; London ; Vienna 17 1589 Dean and Virginia Foisie Rusk What about my mom [Virginia Foisie Rusk]? Peleuses and Mossellem talk about Virginia Foisie Rusk's hospitality and claim that she never missed a diplomatic reception. They describe Mr. and Mrs. Rusk's relationship as respectful but playful. They explain that Rusk resisted having a security detail because he did not think it was necessary and he liked his privacy. diplomacy ; engagements ; events ; family ; marriage ; protection ; wife 17 2186 Dean and Peggy Rusk / Rusk's letter to Jane Mossellem Talking about my sister Peggy's growing up in Washington in those years and the degree of adjustment she had to make. Mossellem and Peleuses talk about Dean Rusk's close relationship with his daughter Peggy. They say he asked about Peggy's activities frequently and felt more protective of her than toward his other children. Mossellem emphasizes Rusk's concern for her and his concern for his employees, too. George Ball 17 2589 Mistaken histories You came to know my dad in a certain way. Peleuses talks about Rusk's sense of obligation to the president. Mossellem explains what it was like to watch Rusk accept criticism for policies that were secretly against his wishes. citizenship ; Halberstam ; loyalty 17 3007 Radio communication outside the office / Emotional situations for Rusk Tell me any stories you may have about that little fellow with the satchel, the radio... Peleuses describes how Rusk received information and kept security when he was out. Mossellem and Peleuses mention that Rusk cried when the USS < ; i> ; Thresher< ; /i> ; submarine sank during a deep-dive test and when President Kennedy was assassinated. They also discuss the value Rusk placed on human life, explaining the toll that the deaths in Vietnam had on Rusk as a decision-maker. Army Navy Country Club ; command decision-making ; foreign policy 17 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Thresher_(SSN-593) USS < ; i> ; Thresher< ; /i> ; sinking (Wikipedia) RICHARD RUSK: We' ; re talking with Jane Mossellem. She was Dean Rusk' ; s secretary back in the years 1961 through [19]68. This is August 1985. Gus Peleuses, my dad' ; s security agent, will be joining us in a bit. People who saw Dean Rusk frequently for consultation and we just discussed Adrian [Sanford] Fisher and his director at the Arms Control and Disarmament Agency who met with my dad quite frequently in arms control issues. Apparently my dad did not get involved heavily in the the negotiations of those treaties but was involved in an advisory capacity quite extensively. Is that right Jane? MOSSELLEM: That' ; s right. RICHARD RUSK: Who' ; s this third person you' ; re talking about? MOSSELLEM: The third person that I was going to mention to you that I think saw your father fairly frequently, and not everybody knew it, was Robert [Francis] Kennedy. RICHARD RUSK: Really? Tell me some more. MOSSELLEM: Very often on a Saturday when he would be there, Robert Kennedy would come in the basement entrance and come up and talk to your father for several hours at a time. That would have been the end of ' ; 61-' ; 62. RICHARD RUSK: What about earlier periods or later periods? Do you recall that happening during ' ; 63-' ; 64-' ; 65? MOSSELLEM: Yes, I would say so, probably more so after President [John Fitzgerald] Kennedy' ; s death. RICHARD RUSK: Any idea what they were talking about? MOSSELLEM: I have no idea. You know better than to ask that. RICHARD RUSK: What about visitors of Dean Rusk, people who obviously saw him a great deal and for reasons of importance, looking back over that eight-year period? Those people that stand out. MOSSELLEM: Bob [Robert Strange} McNamara saw a great deal of your dad on weekends as well at the Department of State. Occasionally he would go over for a private luncheon on a Saturday with him, but more often it was at State. RICHARD RUSK: Bob McNamara made a point of coming to State to talk to my dad. He told me that. MOSSELLEM: McGeorge Bundy was another. And, of course, Bill [William Putnam] Bundy was here in the Department. All of the Assistant Secretaries he met with constantly each and every day. There was a comradeship within the hierarchy of the Department in those days the likes of which I' ; ve not seen since. RICHARD RUSK: Did you see it before, back in the Republican [John Foster] Dulles years? MOSSELLEM: I probably would not have been as aware of it then because I was just coming in to the office in those days. I guess I felt it more later on in the [William Pierce] Rogers and the [Henry Alfred] Kissinger years where I was so involved there, too, in the office itself and in the work of the Department. RICHARD RUSK: People in higher levels tended to get along better with each other during the Kennedy and [Lyndon Baines] Johnson years? MOSSELLEM: Yeah. And I think there was a feeling of leadership in the Department which a lot of people have not felt since that era. And, of course, I attribute that to your father. He managed his department and the way he gave authority to others to handle. RICHARD RUSK: He' ; s been criticized by some former colleagues as well as scholars to the extent that he didn' ; t provide a lot of leadership, that he was reticent in office and he didn' ; t really share his feelings and opinions with his colleagues. Did you see that quality in him at all, or did it interfere with the performance of your job at all? MOSSELLEM: It did not at all. I have a feeling that maybe some of that might have been a little bit of jealousy. I think there was a warmth of human understanding that he expressed to everyone that came in contact with him, or he gave them that feeling. From your most intellectual down to your messengers he made everybody feel that they were extremely important and had something to offer: something to give, and something to contribute. I don' ; t know of anyone that didn' ; t have the utmost respect and confidence in him. They felt that they could go to him for anything. For the silliest reasons sometimes somebody would go to him, on a personal matter or on an official matter, and he would help them. He would always take the time. RICHARD RUSK: Personal staff, his own staff would go to him with problems? MOSSELLEM: Yeah, I think some of them probably did on off-hours or on off-times. He was the type person that they felt they could talk to. He brought that out in people without trying to be that way. He didn' ; t appear to be that type person, but he is that type person. As you know, he' ; s so quick on the draw with everything that he could almost see things happening before they happened sometimes. RICHARD RUSK: He' ; s been criticized by some as not being quite up to snuff intellectually, in terms of his mental capabilities. I think some of that talk got started with [Arthur Meier] Schlesinger' ; s [Jr.] book, A Thousand Days, some of the scuttlebutt within the Kennedy clan. You' ; ve had a chance to see him and compare him with six other Secretaries of State. Just overall, in a comparative way, how would you judge Dean Rusk? MOSSELLEM: In comparison with all of them I would say that he had the utmost integrity. And as far as an intellectual, I would rate him above all in taking everything into perspective, in weighing out all elements. And he went through some terribly tough times. And then, he had two different but difficult bosses. RICHARD RUSK: Were you privy to that relationship at all. You would, of course, see the paperwork come through. MOSSELLEM: I think that Lyndon Johnson relied, over and above all his Cabinet, on your father for his intellect and for his guidance on everything. I don' ; t think there' ; s any question about that. As far as John F. Kennedy was concerned, I don' ; t think he would have appointed your father if he had not thought that he was not the man that he would want to be his Secretary of State and do what he wanted him to do and to lean on him heavily in many respects too. RICHARD RUSK: Any Anecdotes? PELEUSES: One of the things that we caught with Kennedy was that he referred to him as Mr. Secretary. And that was not the way other people interpreted. It was apparent to those of us that were standing around, and I' ; m not alone in this. The guys in the secret service felt the same way. You know, we' ; d be standing around in the hall and we' ; d be four feet behind them. They' ; d stop, we' ; d stop, sort of thing. You heard the conversation. And he called him Mr. Secretary, and this was in no way denigrating ; this was a mark of respect. Kennedy looked on him as his elder advisor. There was never any doubt in our minds, you know, when we were around him. Other people have chosen to interpret that as your father being on the periphery, not in the in-crowd. I think that' ; s the furthest thing from the truth. He referred to others by their first name- he, Kennedy- I think primarily because in effect he was talking down to those people. I think the reverse of what the media chose to interpret was the fact. There' ; s no question that Johnson had absolute faith in what your father said. I don' ; t think there' ; s ever been a question about that. RICHARD RUSK: Jackie [Jacqueline Bouvier] Kennedy told my dad at a White House dinner one time, " ; You know, Mr. Secretary, that of all the members of the Cabinet, the President calls only you by Mr. Secretary." ; My dad didn' ; t ever follow that up. He wasn' ; t about to say, " ; Why is that?" ; PELEUSES: We saw this primarily around the White House, but in other areas too: initially when we went to Paris on that famous trip that Kennedy made. Kennedy would joke, he would laugh, he would slap people on the back and say " ; What do you think about so and so?" ; Kennedy was obviously very outgoing. And people would respond in kind. Then when it got to the real hard stuff, he' ; d take your father and the two of them would walk off alone and he' ; d say, " ; Mr. Secretary." ; And they' ; d put their heads together. And that' ; s where it really came down to where the decisions were being made. The rest of it was as much comraderie as anything else, I think. I felt--and as I said I' ; m not alone in this, the people that were around with me felt the same way--that when it came to the hard crunchy decisions and ideas that they had, he went to your father. RICHARD RUSK: And you would go with my dad to the White House. You followed him around just about wherever he was? PELEUSES: Yeah, except in the Oval Office itself. What happened in the Oval Office, only the two of them knew. And I mean that literally. A lot of it was done in vehicles ; a lot of it was done in airplanes ; a lot of it was done in other areas, in the halls. They' ; d be walking together from point A to point B in the White House and just stop cold and we' ; d all sort of lurch to a stop and stand there [while they talked]. MOSSELLEM: Not since Mr. Rusk' ; s time with us here at the State Department have I felt, and I think a lot of people share this with me, a closeness or a sense of leadership from the Secretary of State as we did with Mr. Rusk. PELEUSES: You' ; re probably right. I think what we' ; re coming down to is the humanity of the man. Again, I don' ; t know if I told you about the voucher from Vienna. I was about to commit matrimony and had one trip to advance that your father was going to make. I was out doing the advance on the trip and then as soon as the trip was over, I was coming home to get married. So I got as far as London and I think the Dominican Republic blew up. I can' ; t remember. This was spring of ' ; 65. I got a call from Ed Streater that said, " ; Don' ; t go on to Oslo because so and so has happened. Stay there twenty-four hours." ; This is in London. So I stayed twenty-four hours and the next night I was waiting for the call. They called me, " ; Don' ; t go for twenty-four hours and we' ; ll let you know." ; What happened is this kept going on and on and on. I was sitting in London. My wife-to-be knew that I was allegedly moving around Europe, and I wasn' ; t. She was beginning to wonder, because she could read the newspapers, whether I was coming home to get married or not. In any event, we finally got a call to go ahead and do the advance in Oslo, but not to lock anything in because it was still tenuous. So I went to Oslo and met the ambassador. It was on a Friday evening or Saturday day. It was not working time. The security officer said, " ; She wants to see you right away." ; I got in there and the first thing I said to her was, " ; You must realize that there is a strong possibility that the Secretary will not make the trip." ; And she said, " ; Oh, absolutely he' ; ll make it." ; About that time the marine guard yelled, " ; Madam Ambassador, you' ; ve got a telephone call from the U.S." ; And she sat there [on the telephone] and said, " ; Yes. Yes, I understand." ; And tears started rolling down her face. And the trip was canceled and he told me to go back to London. So I went back to London again. All this time I' ; m spending money because the trip had been scheduled one way and London was more expensive than the other places. To make a long story short, as soon as your father arrived in London, I met him at the airport and hopped on the first available flight and went out and advanced Vienna. This was the tenth anniversary of the four-power evacuation of Vienna. There were some circus performances there. I was housed in the hotel where the entire delegation was housed at normal per diem for Vienna, which was way under what the hotel cost was. I paid my hotel bill and I came home and filed my voucher. There were provisions to cover you for excessive costs. I filed this voucher and nothing happened. I made an inquiry and nothing happened. I got married and all this. About ten months later I was sitting at the desk writing another memo to the finance people saying, " ; I need my money." ; Your father walked up and I didn' ; t see him. He stood there and said, " ; What' ; s the matter?" ; He realized I was engrossed in this thing. And I told him about it and he said, " ; Where are these people?" ; They were in one of those little temporary row house buildings nearby. And he said, " ; Let' ; s go over and talk to them." ; I said, " ; Well, no. The Secretary of State can' ; t do that." ; He said, " ; Let' ; s go over and talk to them." ; They had moved from one office to another and lost my file ; then my file had been destroyed and then they had found it, but they hadn' ; t found the right file. He walked in there and the whole place came unglued because the Secretary of State walked in. This little lady came up and explained what the problem was to him, and he turned around and said, " ; Let' ; s go." ; And the next day I had a hand-delivered Treasury check in my possession. That just blew my mind that the Secretary of State would take his personal time. That' ; s what I' ; m talking about way at the beginning about the humanity of the man. He scored all kinds of points with me, and he did with everybody else that heard the story. He would do things like that. He would walk out and he would say, " ; How is this done?" ; It would be some arcane thing in Administration. We' ; d tell him and he' ; s say, " ; Where is that?" ; And we' ; d tell him and he' ; d say, " ; Let' ; s go visit them." ; Down the elevator we' ; d go, with no " ; The Secretary is coming, stand at attention." ; He' ; d walk in and say, " ; I' ; m Dean Rusk." ; It' ; s a wonder he didn' ; t give somebody a heart attack because he' ; d just walk in cold like that. MOSSELLEM: He loved to do that. He loved to walk down to George [Wildman] Ball' ; s office when I was down there and just walk right in. PELEUSES: There was absolutely nothing artificial about it, absolutely nothing. MOSSELLEM: He didn' ; t put on. As the years go by, we' ; ve all grown to appreciate that. We didn' ; t know what we had. PELEUSES: I told you there was a circus that went on in Vienna. I thought the Germans were rigid in their organization, but let me tell you the Austrians are worse. MOSSELLEM: That' ; s when the NATO [North Atlantic Treaty Organization] met in London originally. That' ; s when he went to Runnymede, too, for the JFK memorial and then the state treaty in Vienna ; and then back to London. PELEUSES: The hotel, as you walk up to the front, was two blocks to the left and across the street from the opera house in Vienna. The chancellor' ; s residence was immediately adjacent to that [the opera house]. They organized an opera night for everybody that was there: [Andrei Andreevich] Gromyko, Maurice Couve de Murville, the British foreign minister. They organized this humongous motorcade in front of the hotel, very regimented. People were assigned to particular vehicles. Jim [James Lloyd] Greenfield, I think, was still around. He walked out the front door and walked down the sidewalk to the left. He was in the last car of the motorcade which was directly across the street from the opera house. They wouldn' ; t let him walk to the opera house. So he got in this car and this whole motorcade went forward and did a 180 and the principals stopped in front of the opera house and Jim Greenfield stopped in front of the hotel and got out of his car and then walked two blocks again on the other side of the street to the opera house. Those of us who were standing there went into hysteria about this whole performance. We couldn' ; t believe the way that was being done. MOSSELLEM: They made you stick with it though, didn' ; t they? They are known for that. PELEUSES: Your father was very polite and kind and sat through the entire opera performance. I have no way of knowing how he felt about that, but he did all the right things. He knew I was a car nut. We were in Geneva for some meetings when the Geneva auto show was going on. That' ; s the premier auto show in Europe. One evening he came up and he said, " ; I just thought you' ; d like to know I' ; ve scheduled a visit to the Geneva auto show and whether you' ; re on detail or not you' ; re going with me." ; I almost fell over. He did his thing at the Geneva auto show and we had special treatment. But the whole point was to get me to the Geneva auto show because he knew I liked cars. I was looking and admiring a small Italian sporty car and I said, " ; Gee, isn' ; t that super." ; And he said, " ; That' ; s fine, but what would I do for the other foot?" ; He was so darn big he never would have gotten into that thing. Again, he would look out for us. He knew that Bert Bennington, as an example, was having some health problems with his wife. He' ; d make a point of inquiring. Jim McDermott, who died a year ago, had a son, a blue baby. He' ; d make a point of that. He knew what was going around in spite of all these other entanglements, jobs, concerns that he had. He still found time to know about the people around him and what their personal concerns were and why they were and that sort of thing. I suspect that no matter who you talk to that was around him found him an extremely endearing person. I don' ; t think I' ; m speaking out of line. I know McDermott felt that way. I know Bert felt that way. I know Al [Alan S.] Boyd would lay down and let him walk on him. We all felt that way. That went through the whole office. RICHARD RUSK: Was the Department itself aware of it? PELEUSES: Yeah. The word gets around. He made a point of everywhere we went overseas trying to find some time to meet with the staff. Others have done it since. He was especially keen to do it at the smaller places, the more difficult places and arrange that the whole staff would meet in the lobby of the embassy or somewhere like that and make a point of speaking to the staff and telling them that he understood what their concerns were and he was looking out for them and trying to accomplish certain things. He showed this again when we went to Vietnam. He' ; d make a point of meeting GIs [Government Issue] when we were around and ask them about their families and make calls. And he made those calls. There' ; s no two ways about it. He' ; d come home with lists and lists and he' ; s sit there in the office when he should have been going home and dealing with you and Peggy [Margaret Elizabeth Rusk] and would make those calls. He felt this obligation. Again, this is the humanity. That never stopped. RICHARD RUSK: What about my mom [Virginia Foisie Rusk]? PELEUSES: She' ; s an absolute dear, one of the most relaxed and unpretentious people I' ; ve ever met in my life. We' ; d be in a hotel and we' ; d set up a command post for security. Right next door would be Jane, Millie [Asbjorsen], Carolyn Proctor, or whoever was along, and then special assistants. And your mother would come down, not just to visit but to find out if we were all right, how our rooms were. She' ; d come down with a box of cookies that somebody had just given her and offer cookies around for people. She' ; d bring a fruit basket down and distribute fruit. She was extremely supportive of your father and his whole staff in this very informal relaxed way. [There was this fellow who was working] two doors down from me and he' ; s just moved up to AF [ ]. Back in those days [he] was a clerk in the secretariat. On Saturdays it was one of his jobs to take the morning " ; take," ; as we referred to it, out to the house if your father wasn' ; t coming in. He said this to me, unsolicited, that your mother made a point of offering him a cup of coffee, some toast, anything. Your father would be sitting there reading telegrams and making notes and she' ; d be talking to Mike. And there was no reason. Mike could just as well have sat there in silence with your father until your father finished. But your mother made a point of watching out for the little people, if you will. As I said right in the beginning, she' ; s an absolute dear. MOSSELLEM: I think everybody would agree with that. She worked very hard, incredibly hard. PELEUSES: Did you talk to Ginny? Where' ; s Ginny? MOSSELLEM: Ginny' ; s in Seoul but due back soon. She would be an excellent one to talk to: Virginia Wallace, who worked directly with your mother. PELEUSES: She probably knows more about your mother from this side than anybody else. She was with her longer than anybody else. MOSSELLEM: Your mother never missed an independence day reception for any embassy. RICHARD RUSK: My dad said, " ; If you go to one, you' ; d better be prepared to go to them all." ; MOSSELLEM: And she did. Every time she was asked to do something, whether she felt like it or not she went with a smile on her face and represented him. PELEUSES: There were occasions when your father had planned on going to something and something would come up and he' ; d have to stay here because there was a hoorah going on in the Secretariat. And he' ; d go down there and he' ; d say, " ; Take the car and go." ; And your mother would go. One of us would go with her on occasions and on other occasions we couldn' ; t. She represented the United States government at these official receptions. And as Jane said, she didn' ; t miss a single one. The word was around Washington that the Secretary or Mrs. Secretary would be there. That' ; s how the foreign embassies interpreted it. MOSSELLEM: That' ; s never happened since either. I shouldn' ; t speak for right now. I don' ; t know what the wives of the Secretaries of State have done since I left the office. I know that Mrs.-- END OF SIDE 1 BEGINNING OF SIDE 2 MOSSELLEM: We still got inquiries from embassies around Washington from people who have been there for a long time and who want to know some old information or want to know what we' ; re doing today with respect to one thing or another and they mentioned here always, and always asked how she was. RICHARD RUSK: I' ; ve got a real personal question about my mom' ; s and dad' ; s relationship during this eight-year period. PELEUSES: It wasn' ; t a showy kind of relationship. It was the little things. Remember that your father is of the old school of courtesy. And damn it, unfortunately that' ; s dead in the United States. Our society has changed. There was a gentleness between them, a courtesy--and it wasn' ; t a formal courtesy--a respect that you just don' ; t see anymore. MOSSELLEM: There was a deep understanding between the two that you could just look at them and see. PELEUSES: It was pleasant to be around them. MOSSELLEM: And never awkward. No one ever felt uncomfortable around them, as you can with people from time to time. And people from all walks of life, particularly in traveling. They were very kind and dear and gentle. Occasionally he would tease her in front of others, but that was rare. That was usually on the plane or something. He would tease her a little bit and she would blush. It was really refreshing to see. PELEUSES: I can' ; t say it, but I can sure imitate it. He would talk to her and he would get this funny little twinkle in his eyes and kind of cock his head to one side and his smile would break up. You knew he was pulling her leg. She at that moment wasn' ; t looking. And he' ; d just smile, and she' ; s look up and she' ; d say, " ; Oh, Dean" ; : a little smack of her lips and she' ; d say, " ; Oh, Dean." ; I didn' ; t go with your father until spring of' ; 61 somewhere around April or May after Habib Bourgiba was in the United States. He was, still is, the leader of Tunisia. He must be at least 195 years old now. Right after he went home I was assigned on the detail with your father. But I knew about your father, as did every single soul in SY [Security Office] within telephone or conversation contact. I think when he was named and before the inauguration, they established an office for him downstairs [in the State Department]. I think Leo, and Jim McDermott, and somebody else was assigned to your father immediately in the transition before the inauguration. The word got around very quickly, " ; Hey, this is a super guy. This is a gentleman." ; There were nothing but favorable comments, and these were the people that had the first intimate contact with him in the Department of State. As soon as the person is named they assign a protective detail to him. He was uncomfortable with it. It took him quite a while to adjust to that. You' ; re living in the man' ; s hip pocket. He goes to the bathroom and you go with him. It was almost as stupid as that. And I' ; m not trying to exaggerate. RICHARD RUSK: He refused 24-hour protection at the house. Do you recall that? PELEUSES: Yep. RICHARD RUSK: Do you recall his reason, what he said? PELEUSES: Just didn' ; t need it. There were occasions when things went awry when we had people down there: the Cuban Missile Crisis. RICHARD RUSK: Who was in the basement during the Cuban Missile Crisis? PELEUSES: Bill [William] Little. I have no idea where he is. He resigned from the State Department and went with DEA [Drug Enforcement Administration]. He was one of those. RICHARD RUSK: What about my sister Peggy' ; s growing up in Washington in those years and the degree of adjustment she had to make. PELEUSES: I think your father recognized that there was a pulling apart that was inadvertent and involuntary, I suspect, on both sides. And I think there was recognition on your father' ; s part. He went off to go to Cape Canaveral and took Peggy with him, and he insisted that only one person go down with him during that period. It turned out it was me. He did things with her. He would read a book. Then he' ; d put the book down, go over and chat, and they' ; d go out and walk together. He took her to see the first firing of the Saturn rocket engine that they eventually took to the moon. I don' ; t think he did this as a " ; I' ; ve got to have a companion" ; sort of thing. It was a very conscious effort on his part to draw her in. He wasn' ; t feeling too good, so he went to George Ball' ; s house to recuperate and took Peggy along to do things. Peggy would try to make things for him. MOSSELLEM: When she started riding at the Rock Creek stables he was always concerned after school where Peggy was and what she was doing. Given the job, he couldn' ; t dwell on it because there were so many things that he had to do. But there was always that dear little girl feeling that he had in him for Peggy, but he didn' ; t have the time or the wherewithal at that period in his life to do what he wanted to do. PELEUSES: The concern was there. We would be somewhere and your mother would join us. He would never ask, " ; How' ; s Rich?" ; or " ; How' ; s David [Patrick Rusk}?" ; He would always say, " ; What' ; s Peggy doing? Did she get to so-and-so?" ; He always knew what her plans were. " ; Is she going to be all right?" ; were the first words out of his mouth when he would meet up at some embassy or some hotel reception with your mother. I don' ; t mean that he wasn' ; t concerned about you all, but that concern and interest about his daughter was there and it was very real. MOSSELLEM: And it' ; s the protective interest, too, that a father has for a daughter versus a son. They feel that a son can take care of himself, a daughter can' ; t, or that she should have somebody to watch over her. I think it was always a concern from the time he came into the office. I believe it was his last day in office. He and your mother had bought lovely Steuben pieces for all the girls: a bowl, a candlestick. He called everybody in individually and gave them their gift at different times. He called me in and said that he wanted to dictate a letter. I was convinced that he was writing his farewell letter to Millie. I got very teary and emotional, gulping hard and taking dictation, sitting on the edge of my chair. I got up to leave and he said, " ; May I have your book?" ; and I sort of looked at him. He took my notebook and he said, " ; Now, where did you start?" ; And I showed him. And he wrote, " ; Dear Jane," ; and he signed it, " ; Love, Dean Rusk." ; And then I did go to pieces. I have that with his picture at home. These are the kind of things that he did. PELEUSES: Needless to say, we all get emotional about him. RICHARD RUSK: I' ; ve found, going back researching his past, talking to the kids he went to school with at Boys' ; High, Davidson College, Lee Street Elementary School, it' ; s always the same thing. It goes all the way back. MOSSELLEM: And his concern for everyone when we' ; d take a trip. There wasn' ; t anybody on that plane that he didn' ; t ask about or keep his eye on and protect. If they were upset or concerned he could sense it. RICHARD RUSK: You came to know my dad in a certain way. You know what he' ; s all about and his good qualities and the kind of man he is. Yet, in the history books and the period of history in which we lived, he' ; ll go down as the primary architect on the Vietnam War. In the history books he has and will continue to take a hell of a beating. Forgetting history for a minute, at the time you people lived this history you saw the terrific--how do you put the two together? PELEUSES: I went through and argued this last night with my wife and my son. I' ; ve got the answer. My son has all these books on Vietnam, including [David] Halberstam' ; s book. Halberstam takes the whole Administration to task, and your father. My wife said, " ; I' ; ve always been opposed to what we did in Vietnam." ; This is the first time this ever surfaced. I' ; ve been married for an eternity and I never knew this about her. I said, " ; Why?" ; She said, " ; I think we were wrong." ; I said, " ; You sound like Halberstam," ; because I' ; d read his book. I think perhaps you' ; re right that the history books will say certain things about your father as the primary architect. There' ; s something that nobody focuses on or puts in perspective that I think is critically important. Your father kept saying over and over, Kennedy kept saying over and over, Johnson kept saying over and over, " ; [Remember] that all of these people were in World War II [and this experience was burned into them." ; ] And that was the base from which they were operating. It wasn' ; t Korea ; it wasn' ; t what the French were doing [in Vietnam]. It was World War II. And the whole objective is " ; We must never get into this uncontrolled situation again. We' ; ve got to stop it before it gets to that point." ; It' ; s critically important to understand that. If you go from that, other things make sense. Another thing that I suspect your father did not say publicly, but he sure as hell said to us and we knew it: he felt very strongly about two things: [obligation and not writing memoirs.] It was the obligation of any U.S. citizen to serve at the beck and call of the President. This was an obligation of citizenship no matter what it did to you financially, personally, whatever. That was your obligation ; that came with the territory. He was unique. Other people didn' ; t feel that way during that era. Other people served in the Administration and went out and wrote their books. This is the whole point. This is why he wouldn' ; t write the damn books. I wish he would. He felt this obligation very strongly. He interpreted his function to be to give the President his best advice and then to carry out the wishes of the President, not the wishes of Dean Rusk. And if it ever came to the point where he could no longer do that he was obliged to resign and keep his mouth shut. And he said this. If you understand where he was coming from, it all makes sense. He was doing what the President wanted, not what Dean Rusk wanted necessarily. I think this is where the history books were all [wrong.] RICHARD RUSK: What about personally? As well as you knew my dad and as fond as you both got with him, that must have been kind of a painful thing for you seeing him go through this. PELEUSES: It was. Why do you think one of the things I told you is that business about Paris? Maybe only ten or fifteen of us knew about it. But I hear this crap about' ; Dean Rusk didn' ; t make any efforts to talk to the other side.' ; That' ; s unmitigated bullshit and I' ; m sick of it. This is why I feel so strongly about telling. But again, if he says no, that' ; s it. The histories are wrong, and he will not go out of his way to remedy this. He will let history take its course. And, again, I suspect, in retrospect, that he saw it far more clearly than we ever did. He knew what was coming. He knew what the potentials were better than any of us did. And I think he probably believes--I' ; m putting thoughts into his own head, and you' ; ve got to get those out of him--it' ; s better for the country to let it ride. I suspect that' ; s how he feels. He certainly has had the opportunities to set the records straight. Again, there' ; s this unique quality in the man: obligation to the country. You don' ; t see that too much anymore. It' ; s beginning to come back, but boy it sure [looked like it] died a [horrible] death. RICHARD RUSK: How did you reconcile the situations with the man that you know? How did you deal with it personally? MOSSELLEM: It was very hard for us to deal with it because you could feel his frustrations. You could see his frustrations. It was even harder for us, who thought so much of him and loved him so deeply, to see him go through this. But, as Gus says, it was his dedication to his country and his feeling of total obligation to the President. He had a lot of tough decisions to make himself and he had to weigh lots of things against those decisions, and few of them were his own personal wishes. When it came down to the bottom line and the President would ask him last to summarize all of these things, to put them all in focus, and to balance them, that was a difficult task. PELEUSES: We make a lot of noise in the media, especially in the last few weeks there' ; s been a big hoorah: it' ; s been forty years since we blew the crap out of the earth, and all this sort of stuff. Everybody goes around waving their hands saying, " ; No more nukes." ; It' ; s a different thing when you' ; re there and making that decision about nukes or no nukes. If you do A, does B result, and if B results, does that literally mean that we' ; ve had it and there is no more Earth that' ; s a terrible ordeal to go through. Your father was making those decisions, not the guy waving the banners out there at Berkeley. RICHARD RUSK: Tell me any stories you may have about that little fellow with the satchel, the radio, that kept him in tune with the firing chain.I don' ; t know if that' ; d be classified information or not. I remember the guy- whenever we' ; d play a round of golf at the Army Navy Country Club, there' ; d be a man walking the edge of the fairway and he' ; d be making sure... Was that you? PELEUSES: It was one of us. RICHARD RUSK: Any stories relating to that man and that link up that kept my dad in touch all the time? PELEUSES: Well, as I recall, whenever we did something like that there would be somebody sitting at the office. You know, normal duty hours. There would be somebody at the office, and you would call SY if there was something, and they' ; d get on the horn, the radio, and they would call us, and we' ; d walk across the fairway or at the green and say " ; You' ; ve got a call." ; and we' ; d break whatever we were doing and get to the nearest phone. One of the things that we were doing was spotting where the nearest phone was sort of thing. He was interrupted by things like that, no question. RICHARD RUSK: This communication was not strictly for the nuclear trigger, it was just general hotline communication to the president? PELEUSES: It wasn' ; t as sophisticated in those days as it is now. There were three of us who rotated duty with him then. Today there is a detail in excess of forty people permanently assigned to the Secretary of State. When he makes a move to point A, they pull sixty more people out of the field office and send them out and scatter them out in advance. The three of us who used to do it sit there and marvel about how they can keep from killing each other. World society concepts have changed. When the first semi-confirmation came that the Thresher [our nuclear submarine] had been destroyed, I can remember your father sitting in a chair. His eyes got sort of glassy, sort of watery and he said something that I can' ; t tell you. It was obvious his concern was not about the damn nukes or about the sub ; it was about the people on the sub that had been lost. RICHARD RUSK: Did you ever see him cry? PELEUSES: Yeah, then. RICHARD RUSK: How about you? MOSSELLEM: Then and when President Kennedy was assassinated. Here was a young man with so much to give and he was totally destroyed: a human being was gone. I think there was a much closer personal relationship and respect that anybody will ever know. And it was all very private. RICHARD RUSK: People have asked my dad about his relationship with John Kennedy, and my dad always answers, " ; There are only two of us who knew of that relationship. One is dead and the other is not talking." ; You' ; re right. We won' ; t be privy to that. PELEUSES: That, in turn, impacts on Vietnam. There is a tendency among highly placed officials to deal with lives as numbers, and you can' ; t help that. I suppose you almost have to. But I don' ; t think you father ever lost how much he valued human life. And I think that got to him when all these things were happening as Vietnam grew. I think that took a bigger toll on him. I' ; ve never really put this in words before. We' ; ve just sort of come around to it. I suspect that took a bigger toll on him than any other single thing: the human cost, not just to the United States, but to the world. This goes back again to when we couldn' ; t permit it ever to escalate to what he and the others of that era had experienced. It' ; s easy to be a Halberstam and to sit there and say, " ; Ah, they were the best and the brightest and they gave him bum advice." ; But Halberstam never really focused on where they were all coming from, what they had gone through. RICHARD RUSK: What was the effect of the numbers on my dad? All the life? That' ; s the one I felt as a kid growing up. I was always a bit bashful of the publicity, but the one that affected me was decisions he had participated in being associated with the resultant deaths. I know that' ; s the one that obviously bothers him ; it bothered him at the time. These guys don' ; t talk about it ; they don' ; t write about it in their memoirs: the effects of combat decision-making upon them personally and upon the factor it plays in decision making. PELEUSES: Way at the beginning when I was relatively new, he said something that there was a lot of media hoorah about: the infighting that was going on within the State Department for position. You father said that he found exactly the opposite to be true ; he couldn' ; t get people to take responsibility. People want to make a lot of noise and offer suggestions, but when it comes down to making the decision people shy away from that. It was left to people like your father. MOSSELLEM: And having to shoulder the decision of others too, that weren' ; t necessarily his decisions: decisions that the President made but he was accountable for them. END OF SIDE 2 Resources may be used under the guidelines described by the U.S. Copyright Office in Section 107, Title 17, United States Code (Fair use). Parties interested in production or commercial use of the resources should contact the Russell Library for a fee schedule. video 0 RBRL214DROH-RuskZZZZZZ.xml RBRL214DROH-RuskZZZZZZ.xml http://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL214DROH/findingaid
Duration
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59 minutes
Repository
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Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
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Rusk ZZZZZZ, C. Jane Peleuses and Gus P. Mossellem, 1985 August
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RBRL214DROH-RuskZZZZZZ
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C. Jane Peleuses
Gus P. Mossellem
Richard Rusk
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audio
oral histories
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sound
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United States
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http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
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Diplomatic and consular service
Foreign relations
Description
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C. Jane Peleuses and Gus P. Mossellem interviewed by Richard Rusk. Topics include the U.S. Department of State, foreign relations, the diplomatic and consular service, and the Vietnam War.<br /><br /><span>C. Jane Peleuses served as secretary to Rusk from 1961-1968.</span><br /><br /><span>Gus P. Mossellem served as Rusk’s security man.</span>
Date
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1985-08
OHMS