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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Griffin African American Oral History Project
Subject
The topic of the resource
Georgia--History, Local
African Americans--History
Georgia--Communities
Description
An account of the resource
The Griffin African American Oral History Project is a collaboration between the Griffin Branch NAACP, the Griffin Campus Library of the University of Georgia, and the Richard B. Russell Library. The seed was planted in the meetings of the Educational Prosperity Initiative which is also chaired by the president of the Griffin Branch NAACP, Jewel Walker-Harps. Collaborators on the project include: Griffin Housing Authority; Spalding County Collaborative; Fairmont Alumni Association; University of Georgia—Athens and Griffin campuses; and the Educational Prosperity Initiative, which is an affiliate of the Spalding County Collaborative and others. Interviewers on the project include: John Cruickshank, librarian at UGA-Griffin Campus Library; Jewel Walker-Harps, President of the Griffin, GA Branch of the NAACP; Art Cain, coordinator of Continuing Education for UGA-Griffin; Be-Atrice Cunningham, project manager for College of Agricultural and Environmental Science for Griffin; and Ellen Bauske, senior public service associate at the Georgia Center for Urban Agriculture in Griffin. Rich Braman was the sound engineer for this project. <br />The Griffin African American Oral History Project intends to document the experiences of people who lived in Fairmont Community in Griffin, Georgia during the civil rights era and through its transformation to the present day.<br /><br />All interviews in this collection have been indexed in OHMS.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-2018
Rights
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http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
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Oral histories
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL418GAA
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Griffin, Georgia
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
OHMS Object Text
Contains OHMS index and/or transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable.
5.4 Interview with Robert Dull, Part One, November 17, 2016 RBRL418GAA-006 RBRL418GAA Griffin African American Oral History Project Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies, University of Georgia Robert Dull Art Cain Jewel Walker-Harps 0 Kaltura audio < ; iframe id=" ; kaltura_player" ; src=" ; https://cdnapisec.kaltura.com/p/1727411/sp/172741100/embedIframeJs/uiconf_id/26879422/partner_id/1727411?iframeembed=true& ; playerId=kaltura_player& ; entry_id=1_k4q84ot0& ; flashvars[localizationCode]=en& ; amp ; flashvars[leadWithHTML5]=true& ; amp ; flashvars[sideBarContainer.plugin]=true& ; amp ; flashvars[sideBarContainer.position]=left& ; amp ; flashvars[sideBarContainer.clickToClose]=true& ; amp ; flashvars[chapters.plugin]=true& ; amp ; flashvars[chapters.layout]=vertical& ; amp ; flashvars[chapters.thumbnailRotator]=false& ; amp ; flashvars[streamSelector.plugin]=true& ; amp ; flashvars[EmbedPlayer.SpinnerTarget]=videoHolder& ; amp ; flashvars[dualScreen.plugin]=true& ; amp ; flashvars[Kaltura.addCrossoriginToIframe]=true& ; amp ; & ; wid=1_6qsmft7v" ; width=" ; 400" ; height=" ; 285" ; allowfullscreen webkitallowfullscreen mozAllowFullScreen allow=" ; autoplay * ; fullscreen * ; encrypted-media *" ; sandbox=" ; allow-forms allow-same-origin allow-scripts allow-top-navigation allow-pointer-lock allow-popups allow-modals allow-orientation-lock allow-popups-to-escape-sandbox allow-presentation allow-top-navigation-by-user-activation" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; title=" ; Kaltura Player" ; > ; < ; /iframe> ; 62 Growing up / Going into public housing I was born in Dearborn, Michigan... Dull talks about his childhood and describes the effect that his upbringing had on his life. Dull recalls the positive impact the Black Panthers had on his growing up. Dull explains the process through which he became involved in public housing administration. Dull emphasizes how public housing can create a sense of dependency across many family generations. Black Panther Movement ; Civil Rights ; low-income ; public housing ; Vietnam War 503 Griffin, Georgia housing communities Coming to Griffin, was a small housing authority... Dull recalls his first impression of the Griffin Housing Authority which consisted of Griffin, Fairmount Homes, and Meriwether Homes. Dull details the state that the Griffin Housing Authority was in when he took office as the CEO. Dull describes working at a small housing authority and talks about the weaknesses of public housing and the need for education in many low-income communities. Dull talks about how his love for Griffin has fueled his work in the public housing authority. education ; Fairmount Homes ; Griffin Housing Authority ; Meriwether Homes ; public housing 872 Tackling substandard housing I can have an impact in Griffin... Dull talks about his wish to destroy substandard housing in Griffin, Georgia. Dull explains how Griffin is extremely segregated in terms of housing demographics. Dull describes the public housing elsewhere, and the use of military force during the social uprising of the 1960's. Dull talks about the history of Griffin and how much the community has changed. Fairmount High School ; Fairmount, Georgia ; segregation 1266 The development of Meriwether Homes I wasn't sure Meriwether was in as bad of a shape... Dull talks about how the deteriorating conditions of Fairmount Homes public housing did not allow for the community to receive funding from the Department of Community Affairs, though he was able to receive funding for Meriwether Homes. Dull explains how he applied for a grant through the United States Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD). Department of Community Affairs ; Fairmount Housing Authority ; Meriwether Homes ; Rosenwald School ; United States Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD) 1721 Applying for funding So if we can promote... Dull talks about how he coined the administrative term " ; educational prosperity" ; in his appeal receive funding from the United States Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD). Dull talks about how his outreach did not receive funding despite meeting the recommendations of HUD. Dull proposes that politics may have contributed to Griffin not receiving the funding. Fairmount, Georgia ; grants ; politics ; United States Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD) 2102 The role of the public housing authority One of the things in particular... Dull talks about how he came to develop such an involved role as administrator of the Griffin Housing Authority. Dull explains the history of public housing authorities in the US, and the importance of public housing in the development of a better community. Dull talks about some of the challenges innate to demolishing substandard housing. public housing authority ; shanty town ; substandard housing 2563 Landlords and housing development You know, we tore down 120 units... Dull explains how landlords are not providing adequate public housing in Griffin, despite charging their tenants high rent. Dull emphasizes the need for vendors to realize the potential for development around Griffin, Georgia. landlords ; substandard housing 3024 Cultural impact in public housing Well, the other thing on the table... Dull explains how the bureaucratization of public housing has led to the loss of a personal touch in public housing. Dull attributes this process to the cultural shift of Americans towards public housing. Indian reservations ; public housing 3472 Progression in the housing sector / Concluding thoughts And so, when you think of progression... Dull talks about the need for a cultural shift in peoples' perception of public housing. Dull also explains the impact that community activities can have on the literacy and graduation rates of children growing up in low-income communities. Dull and the interviewers discuss the change in public housing that has taken place in Griffin, Georgia. community ; Fairmount, Georgia ; literacy Oral History No transcript. Resources may be used under the guidelines described by the U.S. Copyright Office in Section 107, Title 17, United States Code (Fair use). Parties interested in production or commercial use of the resources should contact the Russell Library for a fee schedule. audio 0 purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL418GAA/findingaid
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
64 minutes
Repository
Name of repository the interview is from
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
OHMS Object
Contains the OHMS link to the XML file within the OHMS viewer.
s
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Robert Dull, Part One, November 17, 2016
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL418GAA-006
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Robert Dull
Art Cain
Jewel Walker-Harps
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
audio
oral histories
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-11-17
Rights
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http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Griffin, Georgia
Subject
The topic of the resource
Public housing
Segregation
Description
An account of the resource
Robert Dull was born in Dearborn, Michigan, though his family moved around many times along the west coast throughout his childhood. Dull worked in public housing administration for many big cities before he eventually became the CEO of the Griffin Housing Authority. In this interview, Dull talks about his childhood, his work in substandard housing, and the future of the Griffin Housing sector.
OHMS
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Griffin African American Oral History Project
Subject
The topic of the resource
Georgia--History, Local
African Americans--History
Georgia--Communities
Description
An account of the resource
The Griffin African American Oral History Project is a collaboration between the Griffin Branch NAACP, the Griffin Campus Library of the University of Georgia, and the Richard B. Russell Library. The seed was planted in the meetings of the Educational Prosperity Initiative which is also chaired by the president of the Griffin Branch NAACP, Jewel Walker-Harps. Collaborators on the project include: Griffin Housing Authority; Spalding County Collaborative; Fairmont Alumni Association; University of Georgia—Athens and Griffin campuses; and the Educational Prosperity Initiative, which is an affiliate of the Spalding County Collaborative and others. Interviewers on the project include: John Cruickshank, librarian at UGA-Griffin Campus Library; Jewel Walker-Harps, President of the Griffin, GA Branch of the NAACP; Art Cain, coordinator of Continuing Education for UGA-Griffin; Be-Atrice Cunningham, project manager for College of Agricultural and Environmental Science for Griffin; and Ellen Bauske, senior public service associate at the Georgia Center for Urban Agriculture in Griffin. Rich Braman was the sound engineer for this project. <br />The Griffin African American Oral History Project intends to document the experiences of people who lived in Fairmont Community in Griffin, Georgia during the civil rights era and through its transformation to the present day.<br /><br />All interviews in this collection have been indexed in OHMS.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-2018
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Oral histories
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL418GAA
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Griffin, Georgia
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
OHMS Object
Contains the OHMS link to the XML file within the OHMS viewer.
https://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL418GAA-007/ohms
OHMS Object Text
Contains OHMS index and/or transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable.
5.4
Interview with Joanne Finaze, January 18, 2017
RBRL418GAA-007
RBRL418GAA
Griffin African American Oral History Project
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies, University of Georgia
Joanne Finaze
John Cruickshank, Art Cain, and Jewel Walker-Harps
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audio
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12
Introduction / Childhood, Family
It’s Wednesday January the 18th, 2017 and I’m John Cruickshank and with me today are a couple of other interviewers.
In this segment, Joanne discusses her early childhood and her family roots in Waverly Hall, Georgia and North Augusta, South Carolina. She talks about growing up in Griffin, Georgia and learning to cook at the age of three.
Frog Bottom;Georgia;Griffin;Harris County;North Augusta;South Carolina;Spalding County;Waverly Hall
329
School Years
Just … tell us a little bit about your … the beginnings of your schooling. Where you went … just, experiences early on.
In this segment Joanne talks about her early years in school in Waverly Hall, Georgia, her family’s move to Griffin and her experiences in grade school at Annie Shockley and Fairmont High School. She discusses living in a neighborhood that was not segregated, and being considered rich because her family "had plenty of food and a car and a truck to drive.
Annie Shockley Grade School;Edgewood;Fairmont High School;Hawkes Free Children's Library;Hawkes Library;Negro Vocational High School;Rosenwald School
1466
Experiences Studying at the Hawkes Library
Was Hawkes a desegregated library for all of the children? Was it public for whites only?
In this segment, Joanne talks about her experiences studying in the segregated, all-white Hawkes Free Children’s Library in Griffin. She recounts how she was able to defy the societal norms of the time and the differences between the all-white library and the African-American library most of her classmates used. She says that she did not know that there were two different libraries in Griffin until her teacher pointed out that she was using books for her reports that could not be found in the African American library in Griffin.
African-American libraries;Fairmont High School;Hawkes Free Children's Library;Hawkes Library;Segregation
2061
Resisting segregation in Griffin
Were there any other places in Griffin that you found interesting that you went when others of your complexion were not allowed to go?
Finaze discusses her lack of understanding about segregation going to eat in white restaurants and convincing them to serve her. She also talks about her lack of understanding of segregation as a child, saying that she didn't see the true extent of it until she noticed that the white school and much better books than she did.
McClendon's drug store;segregated schools;separate but equal;sit-ins;Woolworth's Lunch Counter
2660
Work at the Pomona Products Company
You mean you had white water while the rest of us had colored water?
In this segment, Joanne discusses her time working for the Pomona Products Company in Griffin. She details the working conditions faced by African American women in the plant and recounts the story of a confrontation with a white supervisor.
KKK;Ku Klux Klan;Labor Rights;Pompna Products Company;sexual harassment;working conditions
3250
Family incident with the Ku Klux Klan
Had you or your family had previous experience with the KKK as to why you would think they were coming from you?
Finaze talks about her families experience with the Ku Klux Klan, and says that they came to her house after her uncle became romantically involved with the richest woman in town and the KKK found out.
Berta Shell;caddy;gambling;golf;integrated neighborhoods;KKK;Ku Klux Klan
RBRL418GAA-007_Finaze JOHN CRUICKSHANK: (inaudible) Are we all ready? It’s Wednesday, January, the 18th, 2017. And I’m John Cruickshank. And with me today are a couple of other interviewers. ART CAIN: I’m Art Cain, University of Georgia, Continuing Education. JEWEL WALKER-HARPS: Jewel Walker-Harps, Griffin branch NAACP. CRUICKSHANK: And today, we are interviewing? JOANNE FINAZE: Joanne Finaze. CRUICKSHANK: Okay, so, let’s start off by just finding out a little bit about your background, Joanne. So, when and where were you born? FINAZE: I was born right here in Griffin. And I was born in the part of Griffin that was called Frog Bottom. My mother was visiting [00:01:00] her brother and sister-in-law when she went into labor. We lived up on Collins Street, which was just a block away from where she was when she had me. CRUICKSHANK: And when were you born, what year? FINAZE: September 26, 1943. CRUICKSHANK: And your parents, were they from here as well? FINAZE: I always looked at us as immigrants because my mother was from Waverly Hall, Harris County, Georgia, and my father was from Augusta, Georgia, but originally from South Augusta in South Carolina. CRUICKSHANK: And so, what about your grandparents, they must have been from, what, all over? FINAZE: My grandparents, what my grandfather, my father’s father did come to Griffin and live. [00:02:00] So, he was a railroad man. So, when he came, after he left Augusta, my father and his sisters and brothers was still with their mother in Augusta. And when my grandfather came to Griffin, he didn’t bring any of this children with him. And my mother’s father and mother never came to Griffin. They lived in Waverly Hall until they died. And my grandfather, my father came to Griffin in 1929. He always talked about the street that we lived on, we really grew up, was called Ninth Street. And the first thing he did when he came to Griffin was to pave, help pave that road. CAIN: Do you have brothers and sisters? FINAZE: Yes, I had [00:03:00] seven brothers and sisters that I had to take care of. CAIN: So, when you say you had to take care of them, were the oldest or? FINAZE: I was the oldest child that my father and my mother had. I had two brothers older than me that were my father’s sons. But I was the oldest child that they had together and the oldest daughter. And everyone under me was in my care. CAIN: That had to be a bit of a challenge. FINAZE: I always told them as we, after we got grown, that’s why I’m the runt. I’m the shortest one of us. I couldn’t grow because one of them was always on my hip, so. (laughter) But I still tell, would tell them what to do after we got grown. I’m like, you listen to me. And you do what I tell you. And that’s how it was. You [00:04:00] were the oldest, you had to look after the youngest. I started cooking at the age of three. CAIN: Wow. That’s... FINAZE: In my mom and daddy’s bedroom. That’s where my momma started me because we had a coal heater, coal Franklin stove. And then she had had my brother, Big Pete, and there was no one to help take care of her, so it fell in my lap. I remember the first thing that I ever cooked was (shine bones?) and rice and tomatoes. We didn’t call them neckbones back then, we told the truth what they were, they were shine bones. And she was telling me what to do and how to do it right there in her bedroom. And when my daddy came home from work, I was proud of what I had done. And my daddy was too, he ate it. (laughs) CAIN: So, you cooked [00:05:00] at a early age. You took care of your siblings at an early age? FINAZE: Yes. I started with my brother, Big Pete. He was three years older than me, and I didn’t ever stop. It went all the way down the road from Pete to my baby brother, Michael. I was 16 when he was born. And he was actually my child. Everybody thought he was. Because the only time you saw me without him would be when I was in school. CAIN: And just tell us a little bit about your, the beginnings of your schooling. Where you went and just experiences early on? FINAZE: Okay. My mother left my father just before I turned six years old and went back home to Waverly Hall. I turned six there and that’s where I started school. In fact, I had the experience, [00:06:00] out of all of the kids in my class, when I came back to Griffin, I am the only one that went to a class, went to a class that had three classes in the same room. And when I tell people that, they always look at me and ask me, how old are you? And I tell them and they said, but you, I did. That’s how it went in Waverly Hall. First, second, and third grade were all together. So, by the time, I come back to Griffin in the second grade, I was already way ahead of all of my classmates. But Annie Shockley, which is now called Anne Street, it was the only county school here in Griffin for African Americans to go to. It didn’t matter. As long as you lived in the county, that’s the school, elementary school that you went to. You didn’t go to the other elementary schools that was Cora [00:07:00] Nimmons in the area. But that school was considered a city school. If you lived in the county, it didn’t matter what part of Griffin, just as long as you were in the county, you went to Annie Shockley. I was crazy about Annie Shockley. I had a principal, (Mr. Boddy?). And Mr. Boddy loved my lunch because I had to make my lunch and bring it from home. And I would have my rabbit and biscuits, and my butter biscuit with the good jelly in it. And as soon as I walked into the school, and Mr. Boddy smelled my lunch, he would take me outside and say, let me buy you lunch today. (laughs) Because they had a lunch room. And he would take my lunch and he would buy me lunch. And he would eat my lunch. So, I learned. Mr. [00:08:00] Boddy’s going to buy me lunch. So, this is what I’m going to do. I’m not going to eat my breakfast meat. I’m going to save it and take it with me, so when Mr. Boddy buy my lunch, I still got my lunch and I can eat both lunches. (laughs) Well, Mr. Boddy was wonderful. And Mr. Boddy would tell, he would tell his children, you know, Joanne got the best lunch. He would tell his wife, why can’t you cook biscuits like that? But Mr. Boddy wanted that lunch every day. He said, “What you got today?” I’d say, chicken, rabbit, ham, because we didn’t know a lunchmeat. We knew nothing about lunchmeat. We knew nothing about breakfast meat. We ate all meats. And back in my day, you ate it all. You ate pork chops, you ate anything for breakfast. [00:09:00] CAIN: So, just taking off on that whole meat thing, where did you get your rabbit, where did you get your chicken? FINAZE: Oh, my daddy. My daddy was an avid hunter. We were never hungry because when my daddy got those rabbits, he killed deer, he killed rabbit, he killed squirrels. He even knew which birds. And my mother loved those birds that he would kill. But that was too little for me, I could not fight for that meat. But my daddy was the one. He was the provider of us. And he took very good care of us. We grew up, I grew up on Ninth Street, 431 South Ninth Street. And we were considered rich because we had plenty to eat, and a car and a truck to drive. [00:10:00] And everybody’s feet went under our table. Because if you were hungry, all you had to do was come to Miss Anna Tom’s house. And Mr. Sherman’s house. And you could eat. We lived in a community that was all about love. And everybody in the community loved each other. And we were always there for everyone in that community. And because of that, because I really thought we were rich. I had no earthly idea that we were not rich. I thought this is how the rich lived. Because there’s one thing about the community we were in, it actually was on the first real rich neighborhood we had in Griffin. So we -- CAIN: What neighborhood was that? FINAZE: Right there on South Eighth Street [00:11:00] and Hill Street. Awe, shucks, College, all in that area. Those were the ones that were really rich. And because we were right there living in the same neighborhood as them, every good thing that they got from the city like taking care of the streets, sweeping the streets and all of that, we got, too. So, we didn’t know the difference. Right next-door to us, our neighborhood was really not considered segregated because we had Caucasian neighbors. I used to play with them. We had Caucasian neighbors. They lived right next-door to us. Now, we were, what we called ourselves, what we thought we were, we were bad little kids. And we would go play with the Caucasian neighbors as long as they had something [00:12:00] to eat. Soon as the food run out, we’d turn back, and go home. (laughs) But when they would come back the next day, they said, “We’ve got so-and-so, you want to come play with me?” And we’d go play with them, and eat up their food. But that’s just how it was. We didn’t know. I have to say, on my side of town, we really didn’t know segregation the way others in Griffin knew it. In fact, I truly didn’t know segregation until I hit 16 years old. I was raised, I always would tell my mom and dad when I got grown, I was raised by Caucasians at the age of four, on up. I’m okay? Okay. At the age of four, I came [00:13:00] to what we call, go uptown, and that was the area of where Burger King is now. (McNeely’s?) had grocery stores up there. And I’m up there ordering my mom and daddy’s groceries. And I could tell them everything on the list that my mother had written for me. And they would look at me like, oh, you can read? I really couldn’t read. But when she’s saying, and she named everything: A pound of (Nuco?) butter, 20 pounds of flour, 10 pounds of meal. So, when I would take the list in, and give it to them, I started telling them what was on that list. And I will pay them for the groceries of the past week. And I would always get [00:14:00] my change. Although my mother had a habit of giving me the exact money, when she sent me somewhere, she always would say, “Make sure you bring my change back.” So, they had to give me something, at least a penny. So, that I had my change to take back home to my parents. And my mother would say, “Where you get this?” “This is your change.” And she would look at me like, I didn’t get no change. This’s your change. And she finally, I think, picked up on it. So, she would just look at me when I went somewhere and said bring my change back. And I went in front doors. I didn’t know anything about going in back doors. I went in the front door. I’d go in there, I’d look them in the eye, I’d tell them what my parents want. Because I’m told, when you’re talking to someone, you look them in the eyes. You don’t go dropping your head, [00:15:00] you look at them. So, I’m doing this and they thought, I didn’t know it until I got grown, but they thought I was a cute little girl. Here come, here comes Charles and Anna’s daughter. Well, I didn’t know. I had no idea what was going on. I’d go pay their bills. I took care of everything they told me to do. Because they were working, it was on me to do it, I’m the oldest. And I did what I was told. I did it like I was told. And when I would come back to them, and tell them, well, the groceries will be here at such and such a time. The (Kohls?) would be at such and such a time. That’s when they would make sure they were at home to collect what was coming because that would be what I was told. So, they were there. CAIN: [00:16:00] It seems like race relations were pretty good in and around your neighborhood when you were young. It seems like they were -- FINAZE: They were good in my neighborhood, but not with the ones that were really rich. Because when we would get our skates every Christmas and go skating down through there, they sicced the dogs on us. And when the dogs come running out, we already knew what we were going to do with the dogs. We made friends out of them. So, then, they stopped siccing the dogs on us because they got mad that the dogs wouldn’t bite. (laughs) The dogs’d be ready when we come through there, over on, on Cottage Street and Hill Street, in that area? Those dogs loved to see us come. That’s when they got exercise because we would be skating. Because those were big houses [00:17:00] and they had paved sidewalks. We didn’t have that. In fact, our yards were nothing but dirt, but we had to sweep that dirt. We had to keep those yards clean. We lived in what we call shotgun houses. It was a house that had one, two, three rooms. And they were all, you could look from the front door, if it was open, if the kitchen door was open, you could look straight through the house. That’s how they looked. So, a living room was almost out of the question. There are so many in the family, you got someone would sleep in your, in every room, except the kitchen. But we were happy. We were very happy. Even when I got in high school, that’s when I started going. It wasn’t that I [00:18:00] didn’t know about it before. I always read it because when I would go uptown to pay the bills, I knew where a lot of the businesses and everything were. But when I got in high school and we would have to do projects, for our classes, I always went to what was called Hawkes Library. And I did all my work. CAIN: Where was that located? FINAZE: Right across the street. Well, what is it called now? That is where you -- CAIN: Hawkes. FINAZE: -- where you have your meetings for Griffin-Spalding Schools. You know where the superintendent’s office is? The building at -- do they still have the name Hawkes on it? But it was the library right there, right across from there. It was the library. CAIN: If I could back you up just a little bit. FINAZE: Okay. CAIN: Before we go forward. [00:19:00] Give us a little bit of an idea of your elementary school. You talked a little bit about that. How many students were there, were they organized by first grade, second grade, third grade? Because you said in a previous school, you had three grades, three grades in one room. FINAZE: Right. CAIN: Was that the case in elementary school here in Griffin? FINAZE: No. No, no, no. CAIN: How was that done? FINAZE: At Annie Shockley, it went from the first grade through the sixth grade. CAIN: Okay. FINAZE: And after the sixth grade, that’s when you got the opportunity, no, after the seventh grade. That’s when you got the opportunity to go to Fairmont. We had three first grades there because I got a chance to go there from the first grade through the fourth grade. I had [00:20:00] no earthly idea once my parents moved from -- the neighborhood that we call Edgewood, and that was behind (Boards Row?). I had no idea that I was in the city school district. So, I kept walking past Cora Nimmons and going to Annie Shockley because I liked it. I liked the lunch room. Loved Mr. Boddy. But I didn’t know that I was supposed to go anywhere, so I didn’t until my fourth-grade year. They looked at my address and they told me I could no longer come to Annie Shockley. I had to go to Cora Nimmons. Cora Nimmons didn’t have a lunchroom. And they didn’t have a principal that wanted to buy me lunch, so. WALKER-HARPS: So, Cora Nimmons was a step up, in other words, [00:21:00] when you were in, what, fourth grade? FINAZE: Cora Nimmons, I didn’t go until I was in the fifth grade. WALKER-HARPS: Fifth grade. FINAZE: Uh-huh. WALKER-HARPS: Okay. And that was the extension for Annie Shockley, or simply because of the location? FINAZE: Cora Nimmons was the city school in our area. WALKER-HARPS: Okay, okay. FINAZE: And the city school. Each area of Griffin had one city school for African Americans to go to, to attend. And you walked. So, there was a city school in every area of Griffin that had African Americans living there. WALKER-HARPS: Elementary. CAIN: Elementary. Okay. FINAZE: Uh-hum, uh-hum. CAIN: So, after you finished elementary school, you headed to Fairmont? FINAZE: We went to Fairmont. CAIN: What was that? WALKER-HARPS: But it wasn’t -- Fairmont, oh, it was vocational. FINAZE: No, it was Fairmont. WALKER-HARPS: Was it Fairmont at that time? FINAZE: It was Fairmont then. WALKER-HARPS: Okay. FINAZE: It had already changed its name. WALKER-HARPS: So, it was past [00:22:00] the period of vocational, okay. FINAZE: Right, right. Because our elementary school, Cora Nimmons was a school that had been newly built and there was a wooden school right behind it that they no longer used. Well, the African American, oh, what word am I looking for. The African American community had gotten so large by then that what we had to do was take that building, wooden building behind Cora Nimmons and make it into our seventh-grade building. Because we had children now coming from what we called the north side of town, the side that had more elementary element. It was so many of us, our parents had had so many kids, we’re larger now [00:23:00] than it was in the beginning. So, we had those three, those three rooms is what we used for the seventh grade. So, as children went to the seventh grade from the other schools, they came there. Then we went from the seventh grade, all of us, to Fairmont. And we were in, if you were in the eighth grade, the Rosenwald part of Fairmont of the rooms that they had for the eighth-graders and it was like four, it was four, four classrooms. But we had no earthly idea it was Rosenwald. We just called it the old part of Fairmont. We did not know that we were in a history-making area. CAIN: So, from eighth through twelfth? FINAZE: Right. Fairmont’s High School was eighth through twelfth. [00:24:00] Because when my class, when we got into the ninth grade, that is when we went, did what we call, walking down the hill. That’s when they built the next Fairmont High School. And we were no longer at the old Fairmont High School. That’s when we went down there. WALKER-HARPS: Was Hawkes a desegregated library for all of the children, or was it public for whites only? FINAZE: It was whites only, and me. (laughs) I couldn’t understand. I had no earthly idea why they would not give me a library card because I asked, what about my library card? I want to take these books out. And they would tell me, we’re not giving you a library card. Because the first time [00:25:00] that I went in there, they actually told me, you can’t come here. And I told them, yes, I can. And they said, no, you can’t. I said, “I’ve got a report to do. And we must come to the library and find the books that our teacher told us to find to do the report. And I’m not going anywhere until I do it.” So, they got their heads together. I’m not really getting the reason why. I did not know that we had an African American library. I thought we only had one. So, I’m going to the library, I’m going to make this A. I cannot even bring a B home. My parents would not allow that. And when they got their heads together, I guess they said to themselves, we don’t see another, [00:26:00] so we’ll go ahead and let her do this. I got used to them. They got used to me. Any time I had something, some work to do that called for me to go to the library, when they saw me walking in there, “Here come that crazy girl.” Because that’s what they called me, they called me crazy. But it was all right for me, let me do my work. Well, when I knew what I was doing, was when I became a senior. And my home-room teacher brought it up in class one day. And he told me, he said, “(Ms. Frasier?), nobody’s work is like yours. I send you to the library to study these books and get the information, and to put your footnotes [00:27:00] in there, and you always come back with the information, different footnotes, different books, but you bring me what I said go get me.” And he asked me, he said, “How do you find these books? Because I go back and I look, and I don’t find them.” He said, “You’re not going to the library.” Well, that hurt my feelings so bad, I started crying. And I’m like, “Yes, I did, Mr. Palmer. I went to the library.” And he said, “No, you didn’t. They don’t have these books in there.” And I said, “But Mr. Palmer...” So, he said, “Well, what library are you going to?” And I said, “The Hawkes Library, the only library we have in Griffin.” He looked at me and the class laughed at me. Well, I don’t understand why they’re laughing [00:28:00] until he told them, stop laughing. He said, “Ms. Frasier, you been going to the Hawkes Library all the time?” “Yes, sir.” He said, “How long you been going to the Hawkes Library?” “Since I was 13, and we had to do things in the library.” He said, “Ms. Frasier, we have another library.” So, now, my heart dropping. I’m thinking, “I’m going to get a C or an F and get killed when I get home.” I said, “But Mr. --” he said, he told the class, he said, “I want you to listen to something.” He read some of my report, he read some of their report. And he said, “If you didn’t know better, which one would you rather be reading?” And they said mine. Because mine had more meat to it [00:29:00] than theirs. And he said, “That’s why I’m saying, don’t laugh.” So, when he told me the library was right across the street from Mount Zion’s Church, I’m looking at him and I’m saying to myself, that’s not what I thought that house was. I’m not going to tell you all what I thought. But anyway, I go there because that’s where he wanted me to go. But when I went in there and the books in the African American library are all in cardboard boxes and torn up, and missing pages, and I smiled. And I said, “I won’t come back here. I’ll keep going where I’m going.” I did wonder when I would go to Hawkes why none of my other classmates were ever there. [00:30:00] But I wasn’t taking into the fact that they knew there was another library. I didn’t. Everything I knew and learned was through reading. I read Hawkes Library on the top of the library. That’s the only place I ever saw the word library. So, I did not know we had any other library. WALKER-HARPS: Did Thomas Palmer explain to you the historical basis for what you were doing? FINAZE: No, he didn’t. The only thing he said was, “Ms. Frasier, if you can go in there, and I know you’re going because your work is exemplary. If you can go in there and do my projects, go ahead.” He didn’t say anything else to me. He did not tell me that going in there was something [00:31:00] that no one else was doing. He didn’t tell me that. He didn’t tell me that, actually, I was not supposed to be in there because I guess he wondered to himself how I got in there. I walked in there. And I said, “I want to get my homework done.” And they allowed me to after telling me no for so many times, and I’m telling them, I’m not leaving. I wasn’t thinking about my schooling, the school and what they were going to say. I was thinking about my parents, if I didn’t come home with an A. So, they were just not putting me out till I get that work done. So... WALKER-HARPS: Give me a comparison of the two, the two facilities, as you remember, in terms of the appearance of the building, the interior of the facilities, and [00:32:00] the service that you received. FINAZE: It was a house, the African American library was a house with three rooms. There were no shelves in it. Nothing but, like I said, cardboard boxes with books that were worse than the books we had for our class. They were even worse. And the fact that they had a librarian there, one person was in there. And that was it. It was green. And Hawkes Library was very, very different. They had everything like a library should have. The shelves, the categories, and all of that. Now, they wouldn’t let me bring the books out. And they would not assist me in finding what I needed. But I’ve never been a child [00:33:00] anyway, so it wasn’t hard for me to figure out. After my first time in there, when you’re looking for such-and-such, you go this way, when you’re looking for so-and-so, you go that way. And you look up and you read what’s on the little wall that tells you what books are in there, and you have no problem finding them. They wouldn’t give me the library card and they wouldn’t let me bring the books out, but they did not stop me from learning. WALKER-HARPS: Was the librarian in the Green House black or white? FINAZE: Was the what? WALKER-HARPS: The librarian who operated the African American library in the little green house? FINAZE: She was an African American. WALKER-HARPS: Okay. But you have no idea what her name was, do you remember? FINAZE: I don’t remember her. I never asked her, her name. WALKER-HARPS: Okay. FINAZE: I didn’t go up there but one time. WALKER-HARPS: Oh, okay. FINAZE: Only one, it didn’t take but a minute for me to know I was not going back in there. [00:34:00] I didn’t have to go back in there and I was not going back in there. And I didn’t understand. I was more puzzled after going in there than I was before I ever went in there because I didn’t understand my other classmates and why they were going there when they could go to Hawkes. WALKER-HARPS: Were there any other places in Griffin that you found interested in you went when others of your complexion were not allowed to go? FINAZE: Oh, my goodness, there you go. I used to go (laughs) to Woolworths. Woolworths had this restaurant and I loved it. I had a friend girl that came home when I was 10, and she lived in Cleveland, and she told me that they were integrated. So, [00:35:00] I’m looking at her like, integrated? Okay, what is that? Anyway, I said, “What are you talking about?” And she said, “Well, we all go to school together. We all do this together.” I said, “Really?” She said, “Yeah.” So, I tried to get my friends, “Let’s go to Woolworths and eat.” And nobody would go. I wound up going to Woolworths by myself, sitting at the counter, telling the young lady I wanted a ham and cheese sandwich, and I want some of that lemonade that’s jumping up and down in that container. I like how it looks. And she told me, “We don’t serve,” and the N-word. And I told her, that was all right. I’m not the N-word. (laughs) And she says, “We’re not going to serve you.” So, [00:36:00] being the little girl my mother and daddy had raised, I put my money on the counter and I said, “You see that money?” She says, “Yes.” “I see you see here’s money laying there.” She said, “Yes.” “Do you see a difference in the color?” She said, “No.” “Then I want what I want.” I got it. I went to (McClendon’s?). I did the same thing. They told me the same thing. I got it. I went to, I can’t think of the name of the drugstore where they had this little ice cream section. But we could always go in there and buy ice cream. But we could not eat it in there. We could buy it and then go take it, leave, and come outside. So, I went in, I ordered my ice cream, and when they put it on the counter, and [00:37:00] I paid for it, I started licking it. And the man said, “You cannot eat that in here.” And I’m like, “I can’t?” And he said, “No.” I said, “Well, take it back and give my money back.” And he said, “Well, I’m not going to give you any money back then.” I eat it right here. And he went and got a man that I knew from town, who was (Mr. Wimbush?), he was an African American, and he worked in there. And he told him to come tell me that I had to leave. And Mr. Wimbush came and told me I had to leave, I could not eat the ice cream in there. I knew not to sass Mr. Wimbush. I’d a got killed by my mom and dad. And so, I told Mr. Wimbush, “I thank you very much, Mr. Wimbush, but I’m not leaving till I eat it.” And I did that from 10 till I was 19. I went [00:38:00] to all of them and ate. And they got used to me after a while. But the only thing that tripped me was when I would go in Woolworths and get my sandwich and my lemonade and sit, because I didn’t sit at the counter. I went and sat in one of the booths. And she said, “No, you’ve got to leave.” I said, “I’m not going anywhere.” When my African American people would walk by and see me in there, turn their heads. They don’t see me. I was perplexed by that. Why do they act like that? They can come in and eat. I’m doing it. They didn’t want to be a witness to my hanging, I guess. (laughs) I don’t know. CAIN: So, what’s interesting to me is, one thing’s just, in terms of your personal resolve, I guess. When your parents told you, [00:39:00] you need to follow what I say, and you said, I’ll do it just like my parents said. FINAZE: Uh-huh. CAIN: You would do that. But when you went to institutions where really the folks were there said that you should not be here, you resisted. You decided that you weren’t going to obey those commands. You obeyed your parents’ commands, but you didn’t obey the commands of those folks who were telling you, you can’t come into the library, you can’t come into Woolworths, you can’t eat, and so on. What was inside, what was internal to you that made you take those kind of stands? FINAZE: I didn’t know I was resisting. You’ve got to remember, from the age of four, I’m going uptown and I’m paying all of mom and daddy’s bills. And I’m dealing with Caucasians only. [00:40:00] I didn’t know that I would ever be resisted because they didn’t resist me. I thought I could go anywhere in Griffin, Georgia I wanted. I didn’t know I was going to have trouble. When they tried to resist me, it’s just like when I turned 16, and one of my momma’s doctors told me, well, not the doctor, but the receptionist, told me, “You can’t come in that front door anymore.” And I’m looking at her like, why? And she says, “You don’t come in that front door.” I said, “I’m coming to pay my momma’s bill.” “Well, you come in the --” I said, “I’ve never ever been in your back door. And I’m not coming in your back door.” But what I didn’t understand was that this was segregation. [00:41:00] I didn’t understand that. And when she said it, I said, “Well, I’ll take the money back to my momma and tell her you don’t want it.” And she said, “Well, no,” she said, “you can pay this time, and when you come back,” I said, “It’ll be in that front door.” Well, when I got home, I told my momma. And my momma said, “Well, what are you going to do, Joanne, if I send you to pay the bill again?” “I’m going in the front door.” Well, I still don’t understand. I didn’t understand. I didn’t have any idea I was resisting anything. I just thought they were being mean to me. So, it wasn’t anything, any feeling within me other than, oh, they want to be mean. Well, I’ll stand ’em up. CRUICKSHANK: You didn’t understand that it was because you were African American that they were picking on you? FINAZE: You know, when I first realized [00:42:00] that there was a true difference in Griffin, Georgia between African Americans and Caucasians, were when I went to the Griffin Fair to help set up for our -- we had a little exhibit that we were going to do. And we were right next to Griffin High. I knew that we didn’t go to the same schools, I knew that. But I didn’t see a reason why not. I just thought we didn’t go to the same schools. What I saw was this young lady’s books. And her books looked so much better than our books. And I asked her, “Those are the books that you have in school?” And she said, “Yes.” And I said, “We don’t have books like that.” I said, “What [00:43:00] do you study?” She explained to me, I don’t know if they kept on doing it, but back then, they had certain books that they studied the first semester, well, six months from school. Then they changed their books. And they started another set of books for the last part of that year. And I’m saying, “Really?” And I’m telling the other kids, “Come over, listen to what she’s saying.” Well, nobody wanted to talk to them but me. (laughs) And I guess, because, like I said, I done played with you and all this other stuff with you, and you don’t frighten me. And when she was saying it, when we went back to school, I asked the question, why not we, like that. Why don’t we have? They tried to explain it [00:44:00] to me, but it didn’t make any sense. I said, “I think we should have books like theirs. We would know more, we would learn more.” And they just shook their heads and said, she doesn’t get it. I didn’t get it. I really didn’t. WALKER-HARPS: You mean, you had white water while the rest of us had colored water? FINAZE: No, when I, I knew nothing about white water and colored water until I went to work at, well, not until I went to work at Pomona Products, because if my momma, from age of 10 in the summers, my mother had, somewhere she had to go. I had to run over there and work in her place, so her check didn’t come up short. That’s when I saw white water and colored water. White bathroom, and colored bathroom. And I was like, okay. [00:45:00] Now, the only difference in that was we were African American women, so, we didn’t have color on our bathroom because we were the only women that worked there. So, I guess, they didn’t need to put colored, because colored was the only ones going in there. But I looked at it, and I said, I’m not drinking that. Because I didn’t know what kind of water it meant. I was not going to drink it. I would drink water before I left home. I’d drink water when I got back home. When I became an adult and totally understood what it was that they were trying to do, I still didn’t drink the water. Because you’re not going to relegate me like that. My brain didn’t work like that. And I didn’t do that. I would not, I would drink water in the mornings, water at lunch time, and then water when I got off from work. [00:46:00] And we, when we integrated Pomona Products, I still didn’t drink the water. I didn’t trust them. WALKER-HARPS: Okay. So, it was Pomona Products that had only black women? FINAZE: Uh-huh. WALKER-HARPS: Okay. FINAZE: Yeah, the PPP. WALKER-HARPS: Where were the white women working? FINAZE: They didn’t work there. The only Caucasian woman that worked at the PPP worked in the office with Mr. J.P. No other Caucasian women worked at the PPP. WALKER-HARPS: Okay. Well, where did they work? FINAZE: Caucasian women? WALKER-HARPS: Yes. FINAZE: Where? I really don’t remember. WALKER-HARPS: Were they in the mill? FINAZE: Yeah, they were in the mills. WALKER-HARPS: In the mills, but there weren’t black -- they were in the middle, in the mills. And black women were in Pomona Products. FINAZE: If you were an African American woman, [00:47:00] in this town, and you wanted to make enough money to take care of your family, you worked for Pomona Products. And you did that because you worked for them all of the season of the pimento peppers. And if you were blessed, and could get full-time, you would work the winter, too, but even if you didn’t, your unemployment checks would be enough to take care of your family in the wintertime. And that’s where all African Americans, women worked, and that is where all African American women in this town had great pride, because they could take care of their families, they could help support their families if they had a husband, [00:48:00] and they actually did not take any prejudice off the Caucasian men that were in Pomona Products. They didn’t take no, no job. They did not do that. They stood on even-level ground. Well, when they got to the point of integration and they could go to the mills, that’s when Pomona Products went down. WALKER-HARPS: Okay, so, African American women were not workers in the mills until integration? FINAZE: Right. WALKER-HARPS: Okay. FINAZE: African American men worked in the mills. But they did all of what were considered the demeaning jobs. They were the janitors and the laborers [00:49:00] that did the loading and unloading. Stuff like that. CAIN: So, tell us a little, I’d like to know a little bit more about PPP, and what was produced. And just, almost the organizational structure. I mean, who, who managed you, and, you know, if you can, you’ve said, I think, a little bit about the workforce, but how it was broken down demographically. I’d just like to get a clearer picture of PPP prior to integration when you had an opportunity to go to the mills. FINAZE: The PPP supervisors [00:50:00] were all Caucasians. There were a few African American men that worked there, but they were laborers and mechanics. But every boss was a Caucasian. And that’s why I say, the women had great pride, because they didn’t take no junk off of them. These Caucasian men knew that the best employees they had, were, because after integration, they found it out, but we’re not there yet, you said. So, the African American women went there and worked, and they worked with great pride. And they didn’t take no junk off the supervisors. They knew the work, they knew what they had to do, and they did it, and they did it well. In the summer, the big commodity [00:51:00] that was produced was canned at Pomona Products was pimento pepper. Pomona Products was well-known for its pimento pepper. There was a small amount of pork and beans at that time that they canned. But the pork and beans were mainly canned in the winter. Pork and beans, and green beans, and potatoes, those things were canned in the winter because that was what was considered the off-season. And that is when they did that canning to keep the company running. But it was the largest, it had the -- well, yeah. It had the largest amount of African American people working was Pomona Products. CAIN: What was the wage rates back then? FINAZE: When I started at Pomona Products, [00:52:00] I was 18. It was 75 cents an hour. And that was good money. That was very good money. They were paying even less than that when I was 10, and going over there working in my momma’s place flipping all those jars, but I don’t know how much she were making. She didn’t tell me. (laughs) WALKER-HARPS: Describe the working conditions? FINAZE: They weren’t bad. They were very good. With the exception, sometimes you had a Caucasian that would put his hands on you. And you had to handle that problem right then. I handled mine. When my supervisor did it to me, although I had no earthly idea what was going to happen to me after I did it, he put his hands on me, [00:53:00] and the next thing you knew, he was on the floor. And then next thing I knew, I was at home, asking my momma and daddy to put me on a bus and get me out of town ’cause the KKK coming. (laughs) And then my momma kept asking me, why? And when I told her what I had done, she said, “You hit him?” I said, “He had no business touching me.” And I was not going to take it. And she went in to work the next day, and when she came home, she told me, she said, “You’re not fired and the KKK is not coming at you.” I said, “Are you sure?” And she said, “Yeah,” and she said, “When I asked him about it, he told me, Annie, I shouldn’t have never touched her.” He said, “She had told me,” he said, “‘cause I told her how fine she was.” And she told me, “Don’t you ever put your hands on me. I don’t care what you look at [00:54:00] because I’m standing here. But don’t you ever do it.” And when he did it, it happened. WALKER-HARPS: Had you or your family had previous experience with the Ku Klux Klan and to why you would think that they were coming for you? FINAZE: Oh, yes. When I was five, my uncle, oh, Lord, you got me telling stories. My uncle, my momma’s brother was a caddie. And he caddied on the golf course. And him and the richest woman in this town became lovers. And her name was (Berta Shell?). And when the KKK found out about it, they came looking for my uncle. I was only five. And they came [00:55:00] to our house. And when they came to our house, and kicked our door in, my daddy said, “Duck, baby,” and I just laid down in the floor where I was playing, and my daddy started shooting. And there all these people in front of me with these white coats and white hoods on. That’s why when people would talk about they wore sheets, I knew nothing about the sheets because these all had on white coats like you’re working back there in the produce department of a grocery store, and these white hoods. And my daddy started shooting. Well, he wasn’t shooting to kill anybody, because my daddy was a crackerjack shot. But when he started shooting, they all ran. And my dad went to them the next day and told them if they ever -- he went to all of them -- and told them because he went on outside and shot some more. [00:56:00] But he’d tell them, “If you ever come to my house again, I’ll kill you.” Well, they denied coming, but they forget who they were talking to. They gambled and my daddy gambled. And my daddy told them, he said, “I know each and every one of you. I gamble with you. I know who you are.” CRUICKSHANK: You could just tell from the voice? FINAZE: Hum? CRUICKSHANK: He could just tell from the voices? FINAZE: Nope. He said, he knew them. He knew their walks. CRUICKSHANK: Oh. FINAZE: And I guess that’s where I got it from because I have a tendency of knowing your walk. I can see you in the dark, and I know who you are. But he told them. And when he told them that, and to know that what he told them was really the fact, they never came to our house again. But my uncle knew that they were coming, my momma, my uncle’s wife, everybody [00:57:00] knew that they were coming, so they had gotten our uncle out of town. He went to Detroit. They had gotten him out of town. I think she came because my recollection of hearing, by being an oldest child in the house, I couldn’t get out like the other kids and do things. So, I’m always in the house with the adults. And I remember hearing them talk, and he said that Berta Shell had come and given him some money and told him he needed to get out of town. That they were coming for him. WALKER-HARPS: How prevalent were incidents with the Ku Klux Klan, have you any idea, even though that it may not have been with your family, but? FINAZE: I would hear from other people about the Klan showing up, and even about crosses being burned. But I would imagine because of the side of town that [00:58:00] we lived on being so close to the ritzy neighborhood and as I said in an integrated neighborhood, although we weren’t thinking integrated, we just thought, you live where you live. We didn’t know that our area was different. WALKER-HARPS: But you were not, when you say integrated, the Caucasians who lived in your area were on the same economic level as your family, right? FINAZE: Right. WALKER-HARPS: Okay. FINAZE: Right. They were poor people. WALKER-HARPS: Okay. FINAZE: Except for (Mr. Konkle?) and Miss Konkle that had the grocery store up the street. And they decided they wanted their houses right there, too. WALKER-HARPS: Okay. Okay. [00:59:00] And take -- CRUICKSHANK: Can you cut it? Sure. Yeah. END OF AUDIO FILE
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audio
0
RBRL418GAA-007.xml
RBRL418GAA-007.xml
http://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL418GAA/findingaid
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59 minutes
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Griffin, Georgia
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Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
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Interview with Joanne Phinazee, January 18, 2017
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RBRL418GAA-007
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Joanne Phinazee
John Cruickshank
Art Cain
Jewel Walker-Harps
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audio
oral histories
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Griffin, Georgia
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sound
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African American women
Segregation
Discrimination
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2017-01-18
Description
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JoAnne Phinazee was born in Griffin, Georgia in 1943. Phinazee grew up during segregation where she attended Annie Shockley Grade School and later Negro Vocational High School. As an adult, Phinazee worked at Pomona Products. In this interview, Phinazee discusses segregation in education and work, and interactions with the Ku Klux Klan.
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Griffin African American Oral History Project
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Georgia--History, Local
African Americans--History
Georgia--Communities
Description
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The Griffin African American Oral History Project is a collaboration between the Griffin Branch NAACP, the Griffin Campus Library of the University of Georgia, and the Richard B. Russell Library. The seed was planted in the meetings of the Educational Prosperity Initiative which is also chaired by the president of the Griffin Branch NAACP, Jewel Walker-Harps. Collaborators on the project include: Griffin Housing Authority; Spalding County Collaborative; Fairmont Alumni Association; University of Georgia—Athens and Griffin campuses; and the Educational Prosperity Initiative, which is an affiliate of the Spalding County Collaborative and others. Interviewers on the project include: John Cruickshank, librarian at UGA-Griffin Campus Library; Jewel Walker-Harps, President of the Griffin, GA Branch of the NAACP; Art Cain, coordinator of Continuing Education for UGA-Griffin; Be-Atrice Cunningham, project manager for College of Agricultural and Environmental Science for Griffin; and Ellen Bauske, senior public service associate at the Georgia Center for Urban Agriculture in Griffin. Rich Braman was the sound engineer for this project. <br />The Griffin African American Oral History Project intends to document the experiences of people who lived in Fairmont Community in Griffin, Georgia during the civil rights era and through its transformation to the present day.<br /><br />All interviews in this collection have been indexed in OHMS.
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Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
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Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
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2015-2018
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Oral histories
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RBRL418GAA
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Griffin, Georgia
Oral History
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https://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL418GAA-008/ohms
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5.4
Interview with Pastor Freddie Phillips, January 25, 2017
RBRL418GAA-008
RBRL418GAA
Griffin African American Oral History Project
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies, University of Georgia
Freddie Phillips
John Cruickshank, Art Cain, Be-Atrice Cunningham, and Jewel Walker-Harps
oral history
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English
39
Introduction / Childhood and family
Pastor Phillips, thank you very much for coming today to talk to us. I wanted to get started … if you could tell us a little bit about your background … where you were born, what year you were born.
Pastor Phillips discusses his early childhood and talks about his parents, saying that his mother worked at the hospital and his father worked in the textile mill.
Annie Shockley Grade School;Beatrice Phillips;Dundee Mills Inc.;Leroy Phillips;Spalding County Hospital
337
Early school years
Well tell us a little bit about your early education.
Pastor Phillips talks about attending Annie Shockley Elementary School and Fairmont High School. He recalls being a member of the basketball team and the marching band in high school.
band director;basketball;majorettes;PTA;segregation
862
Consciousness of Segregation in His High School Years
How conscious were you when you were coming through high school that there were really a dual society that you were living in … that there were really two … you know there was Fairmont and there was … Spalding and Griffin High …
Pastor Phillips is reflects on his consciousness of the dual society present in Griffin which was created by segregation. He recalls being upset that his school had outdated books, but he says that the teachers did the best with the books that they had.
C.W. Daniels;Dr. Horace Tate;Segregated School;Segregation
1090
Economic Conditions Faced by African-Americans in Segregated Griffin
Tell us a little bit about the economy of Griffin during your early life. What did people do to earn a living? Particularly black people … African-Americans
In this segment, Pastor Phillips elaborates on the economic conditions faced by African-Americans in segregated Griffin, GA. He also touches on the role played by the Griffin office of the Atlanta Life Insurance Company and several prominent professionals in the community.
A.C. Touchstone;Alonzo Herndon;Atlanta Life Financial Group;Atlanta Life Insucrance Company;Clean Well Pressing Club;Pomona Products Company;Slaton Avenue;Snow’s Barbecue
http://www.georgiaencyclopedia.org/articles/business-economy/alonzo-herndon-1858-1927
An African American barber and entrepreneur, Alonzo Herndon was founder and president of the Atlanta Life Insurance Company, one of the most successful black-owned insurance businesses in the nation. At the time of his death in 1927, he was also Atlanta's wealthiest black citizen, owning more property than any other African American. Admired and respected by many, he was noted for his involvement in and support of local institutions and charities devoted to advancing African American business an
1694
Civil Rights Activism
All right, lets take a look at the civil rights era. You were very active during that period. What did you do?
Pastor Phillips discusses his involvement with the Civil Rights Movement. He talks about participating in sit-ins at lunch counters and also protesting and picketing.
AC Touchstone;Citizen Improvement League;F.W. Woolworth Company;Glen Reid;NAACP;Phillip Head;Rev. James Shropshire;Rev. O.H. Stenson;The City Commission;Woolworth's
2310
Reactions to the civil rights movement / Food Depot grocery store
Since you were at the forefront of the civil rights movement, were your parents supportive of you being in the movement?
Pastor Phillips talks about his parent's concern about his involvement in the Civil Rights Movement and says that many people involved in the movement had threats made on their lives. He also discusses picketing in front of the Food Depot grocery store because the owner refused to hire black employees even though the majority of his customers were African-American.
Bi-Racial Committee;Chamber of Commerce;Dundee Mills;Farimont High School;newspaper coverage;Raymond Head
3227
Economic impacts of the civil rights movement / The Ku Klux Klan
I’m also curious, because you all were out protesting and trying to make change … and that had to create, as you say, unrest and tension in the community … and you did have older folks who had jobs and they depended on … how were they impacted?
Pastor Phillips discusses the fear that many people had of losing their jobs during the Civil Rights Movement, but says that he can't recall any specific instances where jobs were lost. He also discusses the antics of the Ku Klux Klan during this time, and talks about how they burned crosses in the street. He also recounts an instance where a former member of the KKK asked him for his forgiveness while he was working at the Thomas Packing Company.
Bethel Baptist Church;Bi-Racial Committee;Clean Well Pressing Club;J.B Stoner;Raymond Head;Sacred Heart Catholic Church;Thomas Packing Company
3673
Politics in Griffin during the Civil Rights Movement
And that makes me also think about also … voting in Griffin and how that changed.
Pastor Phillps discusses the voting rights of African Americans during the Civil Rights Movement and talks about running for office in a district that was mostly white. He says that a lot of people liked his platform, but were not ready to support a black candidate. He also talks about Judge Whalen Jr. who had a reputation of giving black people very harsh sentences.
literacy test;NAACP;Ray. L Robinson;Ricky Sutton;Single Member Districts
32
General Discussion of Griffin and the Faith Community in Griffin
If you had to pinpoint 1 or 2 reasons why, across the spectrum, whether it’s athletics or academic achievement … what would be the reason …
In this segment, Pastor Phillips talks about what makes Griffin a special place and why many successful people from Griffin were able to overcome a system in which the odds were stacked against them.
BUG;Dr. Horace Tate;Fairmont High School;gender roles;NAACP;non-violent activism;Samuel Dubois Cook;SCLC;voter registration
RBRL418GAA-008_Phillips __: Anytime. JOHN CRUICKSHANK: I’m John Cruickshank, it’s Wednesday January the 25th, 2017. Today we are interviewing the Reverend Freddie Phillips, and I have with me three other interviewers they are -- ART CAIN: Art Cain, I’m with the University of Georgia. BE-ATRICE CUNNINGHAM: Be-Atrice Cunningham, University of Georgia. JEWEL WALKER-HARPS: Jewel Walker-Harps, Griffin Branch NAACP. CRUIKSHANK: And we are interviewing. FREDDIE PHILLIPS: Pastor Phillips. __: One second. CRUIKSHANK: Pastor Phillips thank you very much for coming today to talk to us. I wonder if to get started if you could tell us a little bit about your background, where you were born, and what year you were born? PHILLIPS: I was born in Spalding County in the year of 1938, my parents are Leroy and Beatrice Phillips. I raised on the southwest side of town, which is a place called, we call it (Boyd Road?). I grew up on that area, I went to church in that area, there was a church just below my parents house, I mean it’s about three or four houses down, born and raised in the Baptist church. Ordained in his office and his church where the Deacon taught Sunday School as well as BTU at that time, Baptist Training Unit, and later we’d be taught bible class. I went to school at Annie Shockley, it was my elementary. I was transferred later over to Fairmont High where I completed my education and I did get a diploma there. That was right around the year of 1957. CUNNINGHAM: Could you give us your full name and birth year? PHILLIPS: Yeah my full name is Freddie L. Phillips. Born in February the second, 1938. CUNNINGHAM: Thank you. CAIN: Pastor Phillips do you have brothers and sisters, and could you tell us -- you mentioned your mother and father. Do you have brothers and sisters that grew up with you in your house? PHILLIPS: My mother had nine children, well the last one that she had she lost it, and the baby was (inaudible) some birth defect. She had eight living four boys and four girls, we all living I’m the oldest. We all grew up in the same house, my parents were very strict on us, they’d tell us what we needed to know, and they’d make sure we followed the golden rule. My father was very strict about church because he didn’t send us to church, he would carry us to church himself. He wouldn’t say let’s you all go to Sunday School. He would carry us to Sunday School and church. I had a very loving mother and a very strong father, and all of my sisters and brothers are still living. CAIN: Fantastic, what was it like being the oldest in your household? PHILLIPS: Well, everybody sort of look up to the oldest person and I guess I was handed most of the responsibility of walking or watching out for the younger children up under me. And basically I had to do more than they did because to that respect because me being the only one it was handed down to the other children. CAIN: Did that shape your life a lot? PHILLIPS: It did, I think for my brain because of my mother and my -- my mother showed a lot of love and she always taught us it makes no difference what side of the track you come on you know better than anyone else. They are the same you are to treat everybody with respect, everyone to be treated. Our father was a little stricter because he was raised in that Baptist church and he just basically taught us, he always taught us to work with our hands. And he only taught us, he gave us two rules and I remember he said well whatever you do you earn it, you don’t take nothing for granted. And I remember one time he took all four of us behind the house and he said, “I’m going to tell you one thing, I’ll get you out of jail except for one thing.” We said, “What’s that father?” He said, “For stealing, I won’t spend one time, one hour of time getting you out. You all will work for what you want, if it don’t belong to you don’t take it.” That stuck with me. CAIN: That’s some great leadership. What did you father do, what did your parents do? PHILLIPS: My father worked at the textile mill here in Spalding, in Griffin, Spalding County at Dundee Mill at the time. He spent about 37 years there before when he retired. CAIN: That’s quite an accomplishment, quite a contribution to Dundee. I understand your mother is still living? PHILLIPS: Yes, my mother worked at the old Spalding County hospital at the time, where she worked in the, what’s it called, the central service. Well she her main job was to supply all the instruments for the doctors needing to operate. She had to send them up, and she stayed there until she retired. CAIN: Is your family, is your mother and father’s family are they originally from Griffin too? PHILLIPS: No, my mother’s father was from Atlanta, Georgia. My father’s people was from I think I had to get this back since I was small. I think my daddy told me my grandfather was originally from Pike County, but they moved to Griffin, Georgia. My father’s father died when he was 13-years-old. CAIN: Tell us a little bit, you mentioned earlier about your early education and going to where you went to elementary school. Could you tell us a little bit about that, you know, when you started elementary school and what that experience was like, and teachers that made a difference in your life? PHILLIPS: Over at Annie Shockley where I went to elementary school we had some very fine teachers there. They made sure you learned and that you were polite. You came in their classroom you weren’t going to disrupt the classroom, if you did disrupt the classroom they’re going to write a note to send home to your parent and you’d better carry it home to your parent, that was just that. We had some fine teachers, I can remember (Mrs. Blossom Gain?) I can remember Mrs., at the time Mrs. (Buckner?) I can remember a time with Mrs. Falk we called her, we were a (inaudible) of the time over there, and that was one of the oldest teachers in that school name Ms. Patrick, and I think she was the oldest teacher over there. But I learned a lot, because those teachers really cared about you and they made sure that you got your lesson. And we had to do what they told us to do, you couldn’t come in there and play in the classroom, you had to be respectful. And I enjoyed those teachers, because they had some concern for you. WALKER-HARPS: Did you have a choice as to where you want to school, was Annie Shockley the only school? PHILLIPS: Well I wouldn’t say we had a choice, but it was closer to my home, because I would live on Boyd Road and Annie Shockley was across the track over there, we called it Springhill we walked to school. WALKER-HARPS: Springhill and Boyd Road were two of the most prominent areas in Griffin would you say? PHILLIPS: I would say on the south side it was. CUNNINGHAM: Okay. CAIN: Were there friends, buddies who you interacted with who you think, who you’ve had maybe a long term relationship with who you have any stories that you can tell about some of the young people that you grew up with at the time? PHILLIPS: Well most of the young people I grew up with at that time after the elementary went over to the high school. I had learned a lot from other kids coming from a different section of town because you had kids coming from the east side of town, which was Solomon Street, we had them coming from the south side which were 9th street, so we all integrated with them. They all had different personalities I was learning with them interacting around with football and basketball, and I did play on basketball briefly, but I didn’t play football. I did get a chance to play on the team that won the championship. And also I interacted with other young ladies and I loved it. I mean we had a teacher there by the name of Ms. (Roundtree?), she taught us, she was an English teacher as well as a language teacher, and I learned a lot from her because she used to teach us in play, we had plays and she had a -- she was a beautiful person so learned a lot from different students, how they interacted, what they wanted to do, some were sports, into sports. Some was into other things some was into science. Some was into biology and so I was different, I guess I had different variety what I wanted. I interacted a lot because I met with a lot of kids there. WALKER-HARPS: Were you a member of the (Borazon’s?)? PHILLIPS: No I was not a member of the Bobazons at that time, the Bobazons came around a lot later. That came under Mr. Phillip Hood. WALKER-HARPS: Okay, oh yes I believe you are right. PHILLIPS: That came under Philip Hood. WALKER-HARPS: Borazon’s Philip Hood, Borazon’s and was it (Jewel Motley?) with the (Bobasettes?)? But there were some social groups at Fairmont, or maybe not social groups but there were some service groups or are social groups at Fairmont. Or other extracurricular activities other than football? PHILLIPS: Yes, Ms. Roundtree had a group called (inaudible) I try get in perspective what the play, just not then we had a lot of plays and she had us, I can’t think of the activity be called -- we had a lot of peoples interested in that, in the plays. She was very dedicated, we had a lot of dedicated students participate in that program that she had and a lot of -- I remember the time we had a play be called the (Seed?) of Suspicion and we were presenting in the state, and they came from Fort Valley and we came and suck them out of those plays and that was a very highlight in my life. That’s a lot of activity that I can remember just me being sport minded football, I tried out for football, but I didn’t play, I played for basketball and baseball, and then nature like that. CAIN: What was the basketball team like at that time? PHILLIPS: The basketball team was excellent. I only think about what we had, we had -- I look back on my life when we played basketball with Harlan (Whittaker?), he was the only coach there. Mr. Whittaker coached baseball, he coached football, he coached basketball, and he coached tracks. He didn’t have what you call associate coach like you got in the high school now. He practically did it all on his own and with what we had to work with I think we come out on top, because whatever thing he presented well we took that and used it, and we came -- we won a lot of championships with Mr. Whittaker, and basketball and football. And I think later on of course (Johnny Goodman?) came along and started assisting him in some of the activities with the school, but Mr. Whittaker did it all. One man coach. WALKER-HARPS: You were outstanding, you were well known of our Fairmont was for two factors really, the Bears, Fairmont Bears and Mr. Tucker’s marching band. PHILLIPS: That’s true, absolutely, Mr. Tucker was very high standard and he had an outstanding band. CAIN: So that band, the activity surrounding things like homecoming and events where the band would parade from the high school to the football field. Can you kind of describe the spirit and how it made you feel during that time? PHILLIPS: Well I believe when Fairmont band hit the field, that was it, the spirit just rose, everybody just applauded, everybody was ecstatic when that band came on the field. And he had a thing with those kids who could perform, they were very good performing in that band, he had some good majorettes, and they was off the top. They was good. CAIN: Did they practice a lot? PHILLIPS: Oh yes, he put them through a lot, and he’d drill them, don’t think he didn’t drill them, but he did. And they respected Mr. Tucker, one thing about Mr. Tucker I stood from my perspective watching him he was a man that dressed well, he wore his clothes and he was very neat. And I don’t care where you saw him at he was just like that, he was a neat man and he was always well dressed. CAIN: You know I always wonder; you know I hear about the band and somehow somebody had to go out on a limb and get instruments for the kids to have, and then to give them instruction on how to practice with those instruments and so on. Do you have any story about that, do you know anything about that? PHILLIPS: They had one thing and they called it the PTA. And I think Phillip Hood’s mother was the president at the time, Ms. (Jessley?) They met with those parents and those parents were very dedicated to that PTA and that’s how they raised money for those uniforms through the PTA and the instruments as well. WALKER-HARPS: There were some strong, unlike now, there were some very, very strong PTA parents. PHILLIPS: Yes sir. WALKER-HARPS: I can remember (Dorothy McLennan?) and a few others who were stalwart you might say in terms of participation in schools. And you met would you say that that fact attributed to the fact that the school, particularly Fairmont, was able to compete even in a segregated society? PHILLIPS: That’s right. They was outstanding -- the parents made sure that those children were well equipped, they had the best uniform because as you said the parents worked hard for the PTA, they were very dedicated. So they were prepared to go out and perform because they was well equipped. CAIN: How conscious were you when you were coming through high school that there were really a dual society you were living in, that there were two, you know, there was Fairmont and then there was -- WALKER-HARPS: Spalding and Griffin High. CAIN: Spalding and Griffin High. PHILLIPS: The Griffin High thing, they had a Spalding and a Griffin, now Spalding was junior high, and Griffin High was the senior high school. I can remember one experience I’ve talked to (Dr. Tate?) which was the principal at the time, I was reading some books and I brought it to his attention that I asked a question. I said Dr. Tate I said these books we have they’re not new. He said, “What do you mean?” I said I looked in the back of the book and I turned the book over I said, it got Mary Jane, Billy Bob in here, but I said these are hand down books. He said, “You’re very perceptive.” I said, “Yes, sir because the other high are getting the new books and we’re getting the handed down books from them.” I said, “I think we compete.” He said, “What do you mean?” I said, “When we finish high school we’re not going to be on the same credit that they is. How can I go into a college when our books are two years behind what they’ve got over at the other school.” I ripped my brain into two then, he laughed, and he said, “Well very perceptive.” He said, “I have to give what they give me.” So the other high school got all the new books, the new equipment, when they got through with it they handed down to us the used books. But that didn’t stop us from getting our education because we had some dedicated teachers there. They made sure you learned what you had, whatever books we were given us we took advantage of, but they was not the same books they had over at Griffin High. CAIN: How did that make you feel when you had that interaction with your principal? PHILLIPS: Well I thought about it, it made me feel that something was missing, because I couldn’t compete if I wanted to go to the University of Georgia, if I wanted to go to Georgia Tech anyway I’m not going to pass no high -- I mean college entrance exam with the books that we had. Because we was two years behind, we would have 10th grade math books when we was in the 12th grade. So when they teach me different algebra and geometry for what a 10th grade level and I’m in the 12th grade. WALKER-HARPS: As I remember or I read some place where Dr. Tate and C.W. Daniels, I don’t remember the others who may have all been principals at Fairmont, but were quite aware what you were talking about and did a lot behind the scenes. You as students may not have known the battles which they fought in order for you to have some improvements, or to even get some of the things that you actually needed, particularly Dr. Tate was a very strong willed man, very very strong willed, and equality was almost his middle name. So as I understand it he came a little bit after, well he was here perhaps a year before I came to Griffin, but I did know that about him, not only did he do that in Griffin, but he continued in Atlanta when he went to Atlanta and became president of the State Teachers Association, and that was another strong factor in the black schools. Teachers went to their association meetings, not only did we go we went dressed up. It was a gala affair for us and there was nobody wore blue jeans, and nobody wore casual outfits, everybody wore their Sunday or their really really dress clothes and we participated. Tell us a little bit about the economy in Griffin during your early life, what did people do to earn a living, particularly black people, or African Americans? PHILLIPS: Most, just basically when I was young like I said my father worked at Dundee Mill which was a cotton mill. This was a job most of what all black people probably get a job. At first black was not even allowed to work on the machines it just they did the janitorial work, you know, and my father drove the truck. But finally down through the years they changed it over and they started allowing black women to work on the looms, you know where they weave stuff, that’s how they got the job. Other economical means for blacks in the country was what was called Pomona Product Company. That was a seasonal thing and a lot of females got a chance to work in the we called in the pepper plant at that time, and also the older females worked as maids in the houses of the white peoples. So that was a means of trying to do what they do to you know basically get an income to support their family. Those three main was the mill, the pepper plant, and the older generation worked in houses just as maids. WALKER-HARPS: Who worked the pepper plant? PHILLIPS: Most of the pepper plant they even hired young kids out of high school in the afternoon. And they had to have a social security card at the time, but a lot of those students went to high school who worked in the afternoon as a part time job in the Pomona Product Company. WALKER-HARPS: Blacks and whites or just --? PHILLIPS: Most of them was black, you may have one or two whites in there, but most of those people was black. That was over there on Pimento Avenue which we called Springhill. Some of that building still remains down there. WALKER-HARPS: Were there any black owned businesses? PHILLIPS: Well yeah there was some black owned businesses in that area. You had Cleanwell Pressing Club, you had another man by the name of (Mr. Ector?) he had Preston Club, he didn’t have Preston Club, but he did a lot of (inaudible) down on (Westleigh Meadow?). That was like you know blacks had a lot of restaurants that was Triple H, there was another restaurant up the street that I can’t think of that lady name she had a restaurant there. We had some black business such as in the restaurants we had Cleanwood Preston Club, we had a lot of black men had their own cab stand that was another popular thing, they owned their own cabs. That was one means of surviving, there was some black businesses in Griffin at that time. WALKER-HARPS: We had some real good eating places am I right? PHILLIPS: Yeah, that was -- WALKER-HARPS: Barbecue. PHILLIPS: Yes, it’s true, barbecue places we had some very good barbecue places. WALKER-HARPS: I can remember Snow’s Barbecue. PHILLIPS: Yeah Snow’s, I forgot about Snow I’m sorry you brought it to my attention. Snow had a real shack diner, then Ms. Banks had a place down there in Slaton Alley too she had a we’d call it a soul food restaurant, Ms. Banks had a restaurant there too. WALKER-HARPS: So would you say, would it be correct to say that Slaton Alley was a mecca for black business? PHILLIPS: Primarily because that’s where all the barber shops ran in Slaton and the pool hall was there in Slaton Alley. Even they had a theater in that alley too that’s why it was predominant for blacks, blacks went to that theater down there. Right there, I think now it’s a barbershop there, Mrs. (Stinson?) at one time had a beauty parlor and it was a theater. WALKER-HARPS: Now Mrs. Stinson and her business go way back right? PHILLIPS: Yeah, I forgot about Mrs. Stinson she go way back, her and (Mary Bob Shelley?) go way back. WALKER-HARPS: And it’s still -- the building and the name well they still exist today. PHILLIPS: Still exist today. We had another black business Mr. (Ralph Grey?), him and his folks had a photographer’s business. Ralph did a lot of photography; well he’s deceased now Ralph Grey. WALKER-HARPS: Not only did he do a lot of public photography, but he was very active in the schools. PHILLIPS: Yes very active and he was a good artist too, he could draw. He was a good artist. WALKER-HARPS: What was the relationship between Atlanta Life and Griffin? PHILLIPS: Well Atlanta Life was the only insurance, well not the only insurance company, but when I came, I worked for Atlanta Life about ten years under Mr. A.C. Touchstone which was the manager at the time. Atlanta Life did a lot of good things in their community because they sprung out not only from Atlanta because when I, not only from Griffin when I was there we had business in Coweta County, we had business in Lamar County, we even had some business in Jackson, I mean Butts County. So we covered a lot of districts from out of that office in Atlanta, but the main office was in Atlanta. There was another insurance company by the name of Puritan Health and Life, that was there on Broad Street and I think that building is still there. That used to belong to (Dr. B.H. Atkins?), because that’s where he practiced his dentist at so when he died his wife just turned it into a business and she allowed the Puritan to put their business in that building and it’s still standing down there. WALKER-HARPS: Atlanta Life Insurance Company, who was the head in Griffin of the Atlanta Life Insurance Company? PHILLIPS: A.C. Touchstone at the time was the manager. WALKER-HARPS: A.C. Touchstone, and Puritan Life? PHILLIPS: At that time Mr. Johnson, he’s deceased, his wife was a schoolteacher over there at Annie Shockley. WALKER-HARPS: Was that (Josephine?) Johnson? PHILLIPS: That’s right, mm-hmm. He was the manager of the Puritan Health and Life at the time, her husband. WALKER-HARPS: How important were what you call the insurance companies and funeral home directors, but mainly insurance companies during the civil rights era? Their livelihood and the success of those businesses were determined basically by black folk, did they play a prominent role? PHILLIPS: Well the insurance company played a prominent role because Mr. Touchstone, if my mind serves me right, Mr. Touchstone belongs to what -- they organized something called the Citizen Improvement League. At that time they was doing things in the community to bring about a change, he had a few men in that (wedding?), and they worked very hard and did it, but at that time it was sort of hard for them to bring about a change in that area but they did have what they called the Citizen Improvement League. And Mr. Touchstone at the time was the president, he was all for equality and justice, I used to talk to him a lot, he wanted the whole thing, but somehow he was -- they couldn’t get it together like they wanted to at that time. But he tried, they tried, they done a lot of good. CAIN: What about health care during that time? PHILLIPS: Well with the insurance policy they did have three main policies, they had whole life, sick and accident, and hospitalization. Those were the three main basic policies that Atlanta Life were putting out at that time. They had some good policies, they had some policies that could compete with the white insurance companies, wasn’t too much different in the policies, they had some good policies. So a lot of people had with those, when they got sick we had what you called sick claims, they got paid, the sick claim helped people with their medicine and also they helped pay the doctor bills. So they had some very good policies. CAIN: And who provided treatment when folks got sick? PHILLIPS: The treatment was the local doctor, or usually if you go to a doctor and you fill out, you got a claim from Atlanta Life that I’ve been sick and you fill out that claim, the doctor signs that you were sick, whatever your illness was he put it on there and we’d bring it back to the office. And they would file it to the home office, it wasn’t very much money, but they paid the claim. It was enough at that time to provide money for you to buy your medicine. Hospitalization was very -- it covered basically the same thing as the white policy did for so many days that you were confined in the hospital, it was very, very good. Atlanta Life has some good products, Pilgrim had some products as well because I also worked for the The Pilgrim, maybe about two years. WALKER-HARPS: Who were the doctors, African American doctors, did they come before or after integration, did we have any African American doctors? PHILLIPS: They had some doctors that came before the integration of the high schools and the other facilities was Dr. Blanton and Dr. -- the tooth dentist was Dr. Atkinson, and there was another doctor I can’t recall his name, I think he came before Dr. Blanton, but we did have some African American doctors in the town before integration. WALKER-HARPS: Are you familiar with the Confederation of Women or Women’s Confederation they’re founded the Bowden Nursery, the group that established the Bowden Nursery? PHILLIPS: No. I heard of it, I don’t have all the details about it, but they did a lot of work too, they done some wonderful work. WALKER-HARPS: That facility still stands today, and one or two perhaps of the original women who helped to found it. Right, let’s take a look at the civil rights era. You were very active during that period, what did you do? Tell us a little about it from your perspective, what was it like in Griffin? Who were the movers and the shakers? PHILLIPS: The beginning early part of, latter part of the ’60s and early part of the ’70s that’s when this era right here started. It were founded in mostly in churches, churches played a very instrumental role in the civil rights era because we had no other meeting place to go to. And the first church on my list was (Hicks?) Chapel Methodist Church with the Reverend James (Shapshaw?) was the president of the NAACP at the time. He also was the principal at a high school, and I admired that man for taking the stand he did because at any time he could have lost his job but that was a bold man to take a stand like that. That’s how I got involved through him and we worked closely and so we started doing little things, he would come and set up meetings and try to bring about a change. And later on if I’m not mistaken after that Reverend Shapshaw got out of the NAACP whatever happened to him, Glenn Reid became the president of the NAACP. I worked along with Glenn, Glenn was the president of the local chapter of the NAACP in Griffin, I was the president of the student council of the NAACP. We used Hicks Chapel Church as a place to train and set up workshops, the workshop we set up working non-violent movement and we had all the training in the bases that we need. We trained in how to protect yourself, what to do in a situation that would get out of hand, also the next church I’m going to put on the list was Hicks Chapel, or not Hicks Chapel, Achaia. Achaia was one of the churches that provided us with workshops and when we was going to picket lines anything we were going to do, marches, whatever, they had a kitchen down there at Achaia, the ladies did and we called her Ms. (Neta?), she was all about sandwiches and drink for us. We were prepared for sit ins, marches, mass meeting, picketing, and protesting. So the children were trained very, very, thoroughly at Hicks Chapel down in that basement of that church down there. We had a lot of mass meetings at Hicks Chapel, we had a lot of mass meeting at Achaia. Those are the only two black churches that would allow us to come and meet and have that type of meeting. The rest of them at that time was a little afraid. WALKER-HARPS: Who was the pastor at Achaia? PHILLIPS: Reverend (Hatchet?), Reverend Hatchet was the pastor I can’t think of his first name but he was the pastor. Reverend Shapshaw at that time was the pastor of Hicks Chapel. CAIN: So what restrictions do you recall prior to pressing for civil rights that existed in Griffin? PHILLIPS: Well some of the restrictions in Griffin there was a certain area that you was allowed in, a certain area what you could do and what you couldn’t do. When we got involved then with the young people because you could go into any restaurant on Hill Street, which at that time was McLendon, Roses and Woolworth, they had what we called five and dime, they called them five or ten cents you could buy anything for that. They had a lunch counter in each one of those five and dime, you could buy in there, but you could not sit down at the lunch counter, if you did they were going to refuse to serve you. Every last one of them like that so we just made up our minds that if they were going to take our money we have to do something about this. So we started picketing those stores, we started picketing, we started having sit ins and it worked to put a -- it took us a long time to crack that barrier because every time you go in they continued to refuse you, so we continued to go back. And we did a lot of picketing in front of those stores with signs and also we had a lot of master meetings concerning, everybody in the community was well informed of what we was going to do, wasn’t nobody left out coming through the church, that’s where you got your information. The pastor would relate to his congregation and the congregation would relate to their neighbor, get on the phone and tell them what’s going to happen. If there’s going to be a mass meeting, if the (cherry going to be picking?) they was well advised, we were real informed about what was going to happen. So those are the things that we did at the church not just set up workshops. CAIN: Was there any communication between say leadership, local black leadership, and local white leadership as you started to go through protesting and picketing? PHILLIPS: Well it’s a lot to state before I get to that area. But all the leaders such as at the time were Mr. Touchstone, Mr. (Head?), Reverend O.H. Denson which was a pastor of Mount Zion, and I believe there was another I believe Frank Junior might have been involved with them. But anyhow those young men, those men had did a lot, like I said they had their own organization which was called the Citizen Improvement League, and they had done a lot to bring about a change. But when we came along on the scene they thought sometimes we was moving too fast and I can remember Mr. Touchstone telling me, “Y’all need to slow down, you’re going --” I said, “No, we can’t slow down.” I said, “We’re doing everything by the book, we’re doing it non-violent, we’re not violent, we’re not -- you know, we’re just, we’re not militant, we’re doing it non-violent.” So we had to take a lot of talking and a lot of changing and those men mind finally came around to the point that they wasn’t going to fight us, they were going to join us and it worked out to our advantage because once we got those involved -- because let me say what the city structure was. Before we even got involved in this here everything went out had to come to Mr. Touchstone or Mr. Head. If you had a city commission which was all white just about except for when (Raymond came?), they would only come down and talk to Mr. Touchstone or Mr. Head and later on to Solomon Street by the name of Ms. (Conley?), those were the people they would relate to. And I often wondered what were they getting out of those meetings because I didn’t see anything that would benefit enough because that’s where they would go to. We wouldn’t get no representation in our district, our streets weren’t being paved, we weren’t getting lights, but all the time every time they were on they would go to them. So I questioned Mr. Touchstone, I said we’ve got to make a change of some sort because I don’t see any of the benefit we’re getting out of it. I don’t have anything against you personally but it’s time for a change. We argued a little bit then he finally agreed to it, because that’s who they all would run to. We had to really tell them, I remember we went to the city commission meeting; they had all the city commissioners sitting up there and I remember every one of them by name, they were sitting there. They would ask when we go to those meeting what do you want, why are you here, I said because there needs to be some change, we’re not being treated fairly, we’re not getting the same thing in our community. I said I want to put you on notice today those men you’ve been going to do not call the shots in Griffin anymore, they don’t represent the black community and what I would have said it for, everything went haywire. But it was the truth, they only catered to Mr. Touchstone and Ms. (inaudible) Conley and a few more, but those people didn’t call all the shots for the black people. So the young people made up their minds this is not going to work, we’re not going to get anywhere letting them dictate to them that they call the shots. So finally found out that they didn’t call the shots, things began to change a little bit. But we were able to struggle between our own leaders and the struggle between the white establishment, because they weren’t going to give in regardless, it was a tough battle. But by and by it gradually became in common and everybody began to fall in place, and everything began, you know, to come together. It was hard, we had some hard times, we had some disappointment, I seen some people’s feelings were hurt. We marched in the sun, we marched in the rain, in front of them stores, we marched in front of the Klu Klux Klan, I was on one side of the street and they were on the same street with me, we just didn’t bump heads, we just all rubbed elbows together. Right in front of Woolworth, McLennan, and (Rose?) those were the main stores we picketed at that time, they had on their hoods, but that didn’t make us stop, we was determined, it was rough. And I think the older generation was afraid because they had never had anything of that magnitude, they had never had the Klan really come out in the open, because most of the time the Klan did their stuff at night. But when we started marching they started getting out in public and riding with their hoods on and guns in the car, that sort of set a different tone, and the older generation was trying to quiet things down, we don’t want this town to get in an unrest. So those were some of the hard things that we faced. Like I said it was hard, but finally it came together. CAIN: What do you remember about, say the numbers on eastside, just an estimate of how many people you had picketing, how many people were a part of the Klan that you could see across the street? PHILLIPS: Well the Klansmen mostly had about anywhere from 4-6 people on the street, we normally had about 6 people on the street picketing. But when we had the sit-in we had to do something -- we did a little strategy. We would train those in the church down there, we would always send them in a different group, we would never send the same group to the lunch counter. So finally they got tired because the city orders were we would have to be asked three times, if we would refuse to move in three times they could lock us up. So when we went in we was already prepared for this, we would go in and ask to be served, they’d refuse the service, we would sit down there, the cops would come in and say, “Look you’ve got to go.” He would ask us three times; we’d get up and walk out. So one group walk out another one walk in, so that was some of the way we worked the strategy on breaking down the barriers of the lunch counter. We’d never send the same group at the same time, and those children were very dedicated, some of the parents was afraid for them, some of the parents didn’t want them in the movement, but those kids was determined, and they did a beautiful job. We never got anything that any of the children got hurt, but it was a lot of tension in the air at that time. CUNNINGHAM: Since you were at the forefront of the Civil Rights Movement, were your parents supportive of you being in the movement? PHILLIPS: Well, my parents was -- my father worked at Dundee Mill and he worked for the (Cheetams?) on that mill, the Cheetams was on the Chamber of Commerce, they controlled everything in the city of Griffin. I was afraid my father was going to probably lose his job, but you know it never happened, my mother always come and tell me, she come in one day she said son don’t you think you’d better slow down, they might hurt you. But these are my very words I told my mother, I said, “Mom, I don’t know why I’m going to die, I could walk out on the street in the path of a car, I could fall down and break my neck, I could lay down and not wake up. I was but whatever God got for me to do I’m going to do it.” And that’s what she says, she looked at me and smiled. But it was tension and my uncle was really concerned about it because he was always seeing me out there and in march he’d often tell my daddy, “You need to pull him out.” But there were some threats, sometimes out there by the meeting at the mass meeting those church guys I know I was in my organization; they were afraid to go home because they was shot at. None of them was hit, but they were shot out the window with a man with a gun. Especially at night, because sometimes people ask them to work from 10 to 11 o’clock at night, we would have to leave and they was always looking under their car, they would all be looking around the corner of their house looking for somebody who going to take them out. But then Reverend William Stinson made one of the finest moves made, he came to us he said, “Now I’m going to tell you something young man.” He said, “I was against this.” He said, “But I’m not going to stand in y’all way.” He said, “This have to be done.” He told all, he said, “We might as well help them and give them whatever they need, that’s our job to give it to them.” Mr. Touchstone vowed if anybody got locked up he was going to be the one to get us out of jail. We had something to go to jail, he’d still buy the crime, he would get a job, but that’s how things fell in place because it took a lot of work, a lot of coming together on both sides. And you talk to me about crowds I don’t know how many, like I said the Klansmen had only about four or five, we had about six on the streets, but for the crowd when we have a mass march we had a mass march from old Fairmont school all the way down to the courthouse, we had about three thousand. CAIN: Wow. PHILLIPS: We took a bull horn and went through the community and we marched on the city on the courthouse steps with three thousand. Every mass meeting we had the church be packed and running over, but that’s what we had to go through with it. I don’t talk about it much; I give all the regard over to the [lord?] because I don’t know what was my life. When I was younger I always told my mother I want to help people, but I didn’t what capacity I was going to help them in. I didn’t know what road I was going to meet. Unless it was something I did decide to do, but I wound up getting involved in it. But give you an answer to that I seriously stayed in God. One of the hardest stones in Griffin to crack was called Food Depot, not the one we got now [Food Town?]. We had done our homework on that, we done asked the man about hiring black cashiers, we was picketing his store. He told up front I’m not going to hire any black cashiers, I don’t care what you do the store owns it. I said, “Sir we took a survey do you know 75 percent of your customers are African American?” He said, “What?” I said, “That’s right and you going to deny us to have one black cashier.” “I’m not hiring more.” It was on a Sunday morning we picketed that man’s store it was (George Ray?), (William Dukes?), Joe Goodman, (Jada?) (inaudible) and myself. We put those signs on, it was hot, I mean it was hot and then someone came out it was 95 degrees, we was marching. So while we was marching from the store one of the guys ran out the store, I don’t know whether he had a toy gun or not, but he pointed that gun right pointed to my face, “I’ll blow your brains out.” It could have been a toy gun, well I don’t know. I hesitated and then the guy looked at me and he froze, so I just stood there, I always keep my new testament bible in my pocket. And when he left I told the guy stand around me, and I took my new testament, I had a favorite Psalm I read, the 91st Psalm. And I said God is our shield. We went right on back to marching, and this is the God know truth, I’d never seen anything happen like it before. While we was marching out in that sun sweating a cloud came up in the back of that store from the west side, it got pitch black dark, you couldn’t see nothing. It started raining so hard we couldn’t see who was still marching in that rain. And I can verify from the guy that was in there, there are witnesses, lightning struck the back of that store that we was picketing in front, a ball of fire came out so big the peoples in there ran out. And after a while it sort of got calm and the cloud went away. When we got through marching all of our clothes on us was dry. Now that is the facts, that is the God truth, don’t tell me there ain’t no God and I witnessed that and they witnessed that, that ball of lightning at the back of that store that man he blazed up he ran out of that store. But the guy did come out with a gun. I had faced that, I don’t talk about a lot of thing, I don’t gloat, I don’t go around like I said dressed as a peacock, parading in the center down this side, I just remain silent. But those are the things that we had to endure during the civil right thing, and I don’t take credit for all that because those guys with me were hard working, those children did their job, their parents that allowed them to get in that picket, those old people that came again to support us, we all came together. But it was not easy in Griffin, Griffin had not always been that easy I’m going to tell you it was rough. And I’ll give you another incident. We had another mass meeting and in that mass meeting it was packed, and not a lot of chairs. And the chief of police was Chief Leo Blackwell he came down and he said, “Is Phillips in that church?” So the man said, “Yes.” He said, “Have him come out.” And I went out and said, “What can I do for you chief?” He said, “You got all these children out here on the street, if you can’t get them into church you need to send them home.” I said, “Okay.” He gave me his bullhorn I called the children to the side, “Look call your parents, you go home, there’s no more room in this church and I don’t want anything to happen to you. I don’t know what lurks in them dark corners right now.” So they went home. And sure enough while I was standing there the (streetlamp?) across the mill over there called, oh what’s that mill’s name, American Mill. And I was standing, and I had to look up, there was a man on that building with a rifle in his hand and I told the guy, “There’s a man on that building with a gun.” He knocked me to the ground, and he covered me. The chief said, “Well I don’t see anybody here, I don’t see anybody.” He went on let me check and he ran over he come back, he called the man’s name he said, “I don’t see Mr. (Shepherd?).” With all of the men, Mr. Shepherd had on a green shirt, the man I saw on that building had a white shirt. Now I’m verified to tell you without me telling you a lie but that my uncle overheard a conversation two days before that happened, he went to the service station to get some air in his tires. He heard these white people, he was talking to them, “The only way to stop this movement is we have to take a gun and blow my brains out.” He told my dad about it, that’s when they’re really, you talk about when he got upset, they really were worried about me by then. That passed over too, but praise be to God I never got a scratch on me, I never got a shot close to me. God just showed me that man on that building, my uncle said with my dad, he said, “They planned to shoot him now, I overheard them plotting.” That is actually the truth. So I don’t talk about things like that, I take things in stride and I just move right along, but like I said I don’t take after it because all those peoples’ lives were in danger, all those people had to endure a lot of hardship because I said some of the guys they’d be shot at. It wasn’t easy some of them we got confronted with the, (Joanne Gibb?) at the time was the Sheriff, he had billy clubs, and tear gas, the whole nine yards, we’re going to march downtown, we had to call that march or he said he was going to crack heads. So we had it. We also learned of a plot one night we was at the church and somebody came warned us don’t march tomorrow. They had called those storm troopers in from Alabama over here, a busload of them. We had have marched it might have been like Bloody Sunday, that happened in Griffin. So God have always had our back, but we prevailed, we made some changes, we got the lunch counter integrated. Some other things changed and to bring it home there was another organization, the last organization I went was called BUGG which was Black United Group of Griffin. Now they said we was militant, but through BUGG after the era of the SCLC and the NAACP we start staying on top of things. Because you see when you’re in a movement you can’t stop, see the struggle’s, the struggle is not over with, we had to continue to make sure what we asked for we were going to get it. So by us coming out we would go to different places and we’d inquire about how many numbers you’ve got in your store, how many black cashiers. We would confront the chief of police have you hired any blacks, we’d go to the sheriff’s department have you hired any deputies, we would go to the courthouse, anybody in the court system, have you hired any black clerks. All that, we applied pressure on those people that’s why they said we was militant. We wasn’t militant but we got things done, we got black policemen hired, we got new deputies in the sheriff department, we got them on the fire department, but it all works together through all three of them organizations NAACP, SCLC and Black Unity Group, it all knitted together, it all played. So that’s how some of these things we got to change. The first black cashier in a store here was (Sherry Barrett?), that was over at Big Apple. We picketed that store a long time, that was a hard store to crack, but once that store broke in she was the first black cashier to work in that store. CAIN: Let me ask you about that, okay, you know, I was listening to you tell and what you’ve been saying is amazing. But I was listening to you talk about the store where you had, that had 75 percent or 70 percent black patronage. When you all decided to picket was there a serious drop off from --? PHILLIPS: Oh, yes. CAIN: Okay, what was the sense of that kind of drop off having an effect on getting what you wanted, what you were striving to get? PHILLIPS: Well another strange way of youth, we went on, we picketed them on certain days. If you -- I can give you another example because Clark’s brother was down on Broad Street, they were the same way, her dad was on the east side, such as (Tender?) Street, Chappell Street, all that were down the block. He had a grocery store right in the corner of that and we asked him about hiring black cashiers he said, “No, we’re not going to have no black cashiers in here.” So we just had to picket him, so we started picketing, but what we did we waited around Thanksgiving, we got all them turkeys and hams up in there we hit the streets. And didn’t nobody go in the store, I mean didn’t no one, a car and came saw us picketing they’d turn around and left. And it held such an effect on him he called Mr. Head and Mr. Head called him and told him he said, “Y’all can put off that picket.” I said, “Why?” He said, “(The Clark Bros?) is finding him a cashier, he’ll hire tomorrow.” That’s the type of effect you had on them, because you know we used to constantly stay at them, we did the same thing with Food Time, we picked them right at Christmas time when he had all them Christmas goodies in there. And now he has a lot of white clients, but them white clients come in his store, they saw us picket they wouldn’t even cross the picket line, they’d go a different direction. Not only black wouldn’t go, whites wouldn’t go in the store either. They didn’t want any confrontation with that type, you know, they just didn’t want to be bothered with that, they’d go a different direction. But it had a good effect on them, you have to have a plan, and the plan was when he had all them groceries, bought all them turkeys and hams up in there. CAIN: Was any of this covered in the newspapers? PHILLIPS: Some of it, you know, sir we went to the courthouse looking for records. I went down to the library, we can’t find a paper, I found some yesterday, but you know we can’t find even paper on that stuff. And I’m surprised, and I had a girl who tried to do some background, but she said she came here trying look at some of this stuff, she’s not in town. I go, we want to do some research on it. You might find a few clips, the only clipping I got from Mr. Head, (Cheryl?), Ms. Cheryl Head, Mr. Head’s daughter gave me some stuff that the grandmamma had with some newspaper clipping, but it’s hard, it’s hard. I have a lot of records that we kept, but when we started dissolving them organizations, when they started splitting them a lot of material got lost. But we kept a record of just about everything we did, what time the marches were, who was going, who was involved, what we accomplished. I don’t know who’s got those records, but they’ve got gone, but they make the things smoother later on and that’s the error of one of the towns in unrest and it was full of tension. They formed the committee we called the Biracial Committee and that Biracial Committee consisted of four whites and two blacks. And the four whites on that committee was Mrs. (Seton Bailey?), Mr. (Bob Crossfield?), and Mrs. (Mary Fitzhugh?), and the two black ones were Raymond and myself was on this committee. We did a lot to ease the tension in our residency because of biracial men that got in there. That committee went out and made a lot of difference in the courthouse. You had white on it and color along the water fountain, when we went out at it they raised a lot of signs, but those signs were removed by that biracial committee. And it did ease some of the tension in the city. WALKER-HARPS: Was that not Bob, was that his wife? PHILLIPS: That was his wife, I can’t think of Mrs. Craw-- I just said Bob Crossfield’s wife, it was his wife, Mary Fitzhugh, and Mrs. Bailey. And I forgot the other man was Dr. (Grover Saw?) he worked up here in the experiment station at that time. CAIN: Do you remember sort of the time period, I know you said ’60s, ’70s, do you remember more specifically what years we’re talking about? PHILLIPS: Well like I said, it’s sort of hard for me to keep all that stuff in my memory, but like I said we had accurate records on that. The early ’60s and the ’70s but I do know what phase we started off with the end of NAACP, NCS, and then worked it on down to the Black Unity Group, then it came on down to that Biracial Committee. I know they played a very important role in it, but it did ease the tension in this city. WALKER-HARPS: Which group was a member, was the the Black Unity Group? PHILLIPS: Shep was not a -- just Shep by himself. Shep was a Muslim, but he was always there for us, he always had our back. He really wouldn’t get involved with our organization, but he was on the sideline. He was more of our informant, if he saw something that didn’t look right he would always tell us, he was very encouraging. CAIN: I’m also curious because you all were out protesting and trying to make change, and that had to create, as you say, unrest and tension in the community. And you did have older folks who had jobs -- PHILLIPS: That’s true. CAIN: -- and they depended on -- PHILLIPS: For their livelihood? CAIN: Yes, so how were they impacted? PHILLIPS: Well you know, I don’t ever remember recording that anybody was in that movement or that some children were marching that parents lost their job. Because like I said, a lot of those children’s parents worked in white people’s homes as maids. It is just remarkable God had his hand in it. My father never threatened about losing his job, like I said was involved because he owned the mill, and he was on the Chamber of Commerce, and I know he knew I walked. And I can’t ever remember calling anybody who said oh yeah mamma lost her job because of the movement. But it could have been, and I don’t remember. But it was wonderful, it was, even with the Biracial Committee we had a meeting at the Sacred Heart Church, but with the, you know the Catholic had one, down here off of the old Atlanta highway that building’s still over there now. You know where the Catholic place is? We were sitting there having a meeting, this is the truth, and while we were having a meeting a man walked right in sat right just like you right in front of me, had on his Confederate bowtie. And he asked me a question, he looked right at me he said, “Do you know who I am?” I said, “No, I have no knowledge who you are.” He said, “My name --” he was the Grand Wizard of the Klu Klux Klan in Alabama, (J.B. Stone?), and that’s when there’s -- he was here in proper response to those kids getting bombed in Alabama. But I sat down, and he come in to interrupt the program and they told, no you can’t come and interrupt the program. And we was going to have a march, we had to cancel it, we had a permit that had to be cancelled because he wanted to bring his Klan members to march through the city, they said we’re not going either one of y’all a permit, we don’t want a disturbance in here. You know he came all the way from Alabama over here, I never forget that. CAIN: Do you think there was communication between local folks here with say Klan leadership in Alabama? Is there a way to make that connection? PHILLIPS: The Klan’s going to have that connection like in other organizations. If they need help they’re going to make a phone call, because I never knew, I wouldn’t believe that J.B. Stone went all the out of Alabama, he actually came to that meeting on a Sunday in that Catholic church. And he wanted to get a permit and they wouldn’t give him a permit, because they said, “We don’t want no more disturbing in this town, it’s too much on the residents in here now.” But I do remember seeing him and looking at him face to face when he came to that meeting. In fact they got an injunction against my organization and Stone, you know what an injunction is don’t you? They actually did that at the city hall, we couldn’t move but they got an injunction, that’s down there in the courthouse records. It’s a lot you just don’t understand or know that we had to go through it, the city got an injunction where we couldn’t march. And I could understand some of the reason because they didn’t want them Klan to come in here, and it going to be all, you know, all hell’s going to break lose again because we had began to reach to the point that we had made so much progress we didn’t need that kind of stuff back again. WALKER-HARPS: Well, did the Klan burn crosses and -- PHILLIPS: Oh yeah. WALKER-HARPS: -- shoot, what -- PHILLIPS: They burned one in front of Cleanwell Pressing Club and one in front of Mr. Raymond Head’s house on Fourth Street, the same Klan that we were marching against and the same who burned crosses. Oh yes, they did. That actually happened, people don’t believe that actually happened. Even when I was a little boy on Boyd Road I remember my father and uncle and them going in the house, closing the door and I said, “What did you close the door for father?” And they would close the blinds, the Klan would march down that street usually about two or three carloads and I know he knows who they were after they passed by, but my dad and them would sit in the house, close the door, and cut the lights out and get their guns. And them Klan would march up and down the street, somebody down there they had they was going to take care of, that’s what he used to say. I don’t know later on down the street or further on round the corner that’s somebody, but they did march at night. I got a chance to see that, I witnessed a lot of things that every person hadn’t witnessed with them Klan like that. And the last time I had a confrontation with a Klansman I was offered a job at Thomas Packing Company through (Doug Taylor?); Doug Taylor was running for the city commissioner. And at that time I ran against Doug Taylor for the city commissioner it was in my district over here on the third district that’s over there on Hillandale area. He won and he came, and he said, “Phillips I’ve got a job over there as a supervisor at the Thomas Packing, do you want that job?” He said, “Because I’m going to give it up.” I went ahead and applied for Thomas Packing Company, I went over there and applied for the job, I’d been on it two days and this guy came up to me and started talking he said, “I know you.” I said, “You do?” He said, “Yeah.” He said, “You know me?” I said, “No, I have no idea sir who you are.” He told me his name I can’t think of it now, he said, “You remember me now?” I said, “No.” He said, “I was the wizard of the Klu Klux Klan.” I said, “What?” He come on and sit down to me he said, “Let me explain something to you, I’m no longer active in the Klan.” I said, “Why not?” He said, “For the things I’ve done I’m sorry.” He said, “I should have never did the things, I’m sad at some things.” He actually told me that he was a Klansmen, I knew it when he called his name, I know he wasn’t lying. But I learned later on that the man, he had an illness and he asked me for his forgiveness, and I told him I said, “I don’t hate you.” But that actually happened, that’s the last time I ever confronted a Klan before, that man came and told me he had got out of the Klansmen, that was on my job. So I have a lot to talk about, I have a lot of experience, like I said I don’t talk about that, I just you know take it one day at a time. But those are the things that actually happened, they burned crosses, if I remember, I think they burned a cross in somebody’s yard beside Raymond, but they burned crosses at night. Mr. Head must have been under a lot of pressure, a lot of pressure, because they were putting Mr. Head to the test, “Why can’t you control the young people?” And he had to tell them, “I don’t have no control of those people.” And they were constantly, the city commission would constantly come, like Raymond had business with a lot of white, he had a lot of white business coming in that place. And I could understand what he was going through too at the time, because they would come and were getting on him about real protesting and he had a big confrontation down there. They were constantly calling, they were constantly coming at him and said, “You going to have to stop this.” And one or two of the commissioners got bold and told him, “You’re going to stop the damn thing today.” And that’s bad to tell a man that he didn’t have no control of that situation. But I know what he went through with it, Raymond was a good man, and one thing I said about Mr. Head when he was on that city commissioner’s meeting he stayed on a long time, but he would always ask the question, “How many blacks are you hiring, how many blacks do you have in this department, when are you going to hire them?” That was one of his basic things and he told us these words, he said, “By you all coming to these city commission meetings and coming and disrupting these meetings you made my job much easier. Because they were always on my back, but when you came and told it was a different day, it was a different ballgame.” He said, “The weight was lifted off for me.” Which was true, because he was the only black on that board at that time. CAIN: Yes and that brings -- that makes me also think about just voting in Griffin and how that changed. Because I would guess there was disenfranchisement for a long period of time where you had black voters who may have been eligible to vote but did not have a vote which would affect who would be on the various commissions. How did all that work itself out? PHILLIPS: I don’t think they had so much voter suppression in Griffin at that time. You know people could vote, but sometimes when it came down to electing an official the way they had the district divided off it was hard for a black man to get elected to something on the district, because Raymond -- only he got there because he was in a predominant black district. But if you started, when the court ran I think went through the NAACP they had to come in and challenge those lines, those districts. WALKER-HARPS: We challenged, but the court threw out all our segmented district seats. That’s how it happened, and we were going to bring somebody in who was going to delve into that. But that was the whole, you’re right, that brought about the change politically, they allowed African Americans to take seats that they otherwise would not have gotten because of as long as they were voting at large we couldn’t just as now, you don’t have an African American who has won in a large city a countywide position. Because the balance, the number of the poverty area would have a large number of people who do not, who would not be voting, who were in economically advanced areas would not have. So, the vote is always swayed to that side of town. All you need to do is look at (Keyes?) and (Darryl Dicks?) and that’s still the case, that is currently the case. There ought to have been enough and there ought to be enough now to carry an at large city vote. But I think because of the economic levels it does not happen, so somebody from Third Ward will always win against somebody from the inner city. The opportunity is there, but in reality it doesn’t happen so we’ve got a lot of work to do. PHILLIPS: We’ve got a lot to do still. WALKER-HARPS: There is that whole period economically and politically that we’re going to have to bring in somebody, and I’ve got somebody in mind that we will bring in, to discuss the court case that led to the change. And you have commissioners, county commissioners and city commissioners and I’m not sure that they understand real life either, how and why they’re there but we want to cover that period to fill in the gaps. There are -- are there any people do you know Reverend Phillips who are still alive who were on the front lines? A lot of them have gone. PHILLIPS: Some of the kids that started out in the movement such as the picket movement and the marching I know some of the girls and boys are deceased, but my organization with the Black Unity Group there’s about two -- I don’t know whether they’re still living, that’s (William Dukes?) and (George Reed?). (B.J. Jackson?) was on that, but he deceased, and (Marvin Goodman’s?) in it, I don’t think Marvin would have marched with the young people and I think (inaudible) but he’s in Detroit, those are the only ones I know that are still living. WALKER-HARPS: And I believe that most of the antiracial committee I know Ms. Fitzhugh and Ms. Crossfield are gone, I don’t know the others if you still have -- PHILLIPS: Ms. Bailey. WALKER-HARPS: Ms. Bailey, yes. PHILLIPS: I don’t know where she’s living, but those are very dedicated ladies, I take my hat off, two or three ladies because, they went up against the arc on Washington Carver, they called them names you’d never want to hear, and those people was prominent people. See Ms. Fitzhugh her mother was a doctor and her daddy was a judge. Ms. Crossfield didn’t have a lot of money, them Bailey’s wasn’t nothing but money in that family, those people were filthy rich. So when you got those people of that caliber moving with you, you know, you feel comfortable. They called them all kind of names when we came to that courthouse because I can remember some of the names they called, and I won’t repeat what they called those people. But when you have people like that coming from a different race sit down with you and try to bring calmness in a city when there’s a lot of unrest and, you know, and tension, they played a role, they didn’t care I guess because that’s what they called. Dr. (Bruno Messiah?) was a good man, he worked up in Georgia for years, I don’t know whether he living now or not. WALKER-HARPS: Much credit has to be given to that committee. PHILLIPS: That’s right because they gave a lot. WALKER-HARPS: Much, much credit had to be given and there were others who were not out front but who were a tremendous asset to the NAACP, they were not up front but without them being behind the scenes and feeding us what we needed to have it couldn’t have happened. PHILLIPS: Couldn’t have happened. CAIN: So how did that dynamic work, you had whites locally who had sympathy for the movement who wanted to see -- who understand and wanted to see change, and they had to figure out how they were going to support that movement, some behind the scenes, some out front. How did that dynamic happen, what was the communication like that made that happen? PHILLIPS: Well it’s sort of hard to describe it because at that area of time, like, I said there was a lot of tension from the whites, they just didn’t feel like that we were was troublemakers, that’s what the mood elicited when we first started, troublemakers and we was causing a problem. And on the other side of the corner, which is from the black community most of the old black leaders we don’t need that at this time, you going to cause a whole lot of headaches in this town, we don’t want not disturbance in that. So it plays both ways. But I’ve met a lot of white people who had sympathy for our place and support, but they couldn’t come out and say it openly. Just like we had support from the black we had support from the whites, but they weren’t going to come out in the open and tell you that. It’s a funny thing even when I was running for office and down in Hillandale that’s a very exclusive area in Griffin and I ran against (Doug Tell?) and I walked that whole district, and I knocked on some doors and gave them my pamphlet, what my platform for running for the city commission. Some of them looked at me and slammed the door, some of them opened the door and asked me to come in to have a cup of co-- gave me a coke and a cookie. And they said, “I understand what you’re doing.” And then some would tell you, “I don’t know if I could support you at this time.” That’s the way it was because they wasn’t really ready because that district was about 75-80 percent white and 20 percent black that I were running against. But it was an experience for me, I learned it, they said you going, I said I’m going to walk it I walked to a lot of people. Like I said I got a lot of doors slammed in my face, I got a lot of people asking me in to sit down and asked me what I was doing and what my platform was. And some of them would tell you up front, “I like what you’re doing but I can’t support you at this time.” So you’ve got to understand at that time they probably weren’t ready for a lot of that things, so you know it’s an experience for me because I said well but that’s what it was. WALKER-HARPS: Ms. Fitzhugh called, gave me a phone call of encouragement at the time that President Obama was running. And then it brought back to my memory the fact that she was one of those persons who fought and who had a tremendous role, and they ensured that the calmness that occurred in Griffin through the turmoil remained, so it was what it was. PHILLIPS: Right, like I said time has changed a lot and I can go into these establishments now, even a business establishment, they’d treat me real nice, respect, they call me Mr. Phillips, they call me Reverend Phillips. I know they know my past, but times has changed and it’s not like it was. WALKER-HARPS: Do you remember who the judges were, because they would have played a tremendous role also. PHILLIPS: Judge (Welham?) was the judge at the time we was doing a lot of civil rights movement. Later come Judge -- I can’t think of the judge right now. WALKER-HARPS: From Thomaston. PHILLIPS: Not Thomas, there was another one because he took his life, what that man name, he was a judge, it will come to mind but anyway Welham was the main man though. WALKER-HARPS: Do you remember the incident involving Judge Welham with the child and county I believe it was who was charged and was treated very, very harshly because of having stolen, was it a bar of candy, or an ice cream or whatever. I vaguely remember but I do know that that precipitated a march and the activities of I believe it was (Tyrone Brooks?) and others from the Pike County and the Griffin area I don’t remember. But John you and I have a lot of work to do, because some of this we can research if you -- and I know you’re interested in doing it, I’ll help you. PHILLIPS: I can remember, I think, one of the most tense times in this city was when they hit the football game and this boy named Rick Sutton came walking through following the football game at night and this white man was sitting on his porch. And then as those kids got around in his area, he walked out and shot him point blank range and killed him. That was a time of unrest because those kids were really going street, we had to do a whole lot of time and calming down. The man that shot him made no time, they put him on something like house arrest. He had a restaurant right over there by the school over there Griffin High school now. The man shot the boy he said that he made some derogatory towards his wife and his family, but his family and his wife at the time they did research was in Atlanta. That was cold killing, when he shot that boy after the football game they were on their way home and he came off his porch and shot him right there in the street. So you know those things that really got this town -- this town they had a whole lot of stuff going on that day. And we had to do a whole lot of calming down and talking to people going through the churches. But the man never made a day for killing that boy and I can remember that because the kid was coming home from the football game, and that’s what you call so much hatred, that was just hatred there. And they put him on house arrest and they even raised a fund for the man for his defense, can you imagine raising funds for the defense for taking a young man’s life, and the man had no weapon, he was no threat to him. You shoot him down on the street and you raise a defense for him, and it’s just sad. And I said well that really would have turned off the roof and going to blow the top off. CAIN: Do you remember what year that was? PHILLIPS: No, I can get the information on it later on, I can find if some of my friends they can tell me. I’ve got some people can tell me. WALKER-HARPS: I don’t remember that either. PHILLIPS: You don’t, but honey that happened in Griffin, coming from the football that actually happened, guy named (Rick Sutton?) that was the young man’s name. But it all remind me what you call stand your ground, because wasn’t no stand your ground there when you have no weapon and you minding your own business coming from a football game, you come off your porch and shoot a man out there in the street, on the sidewalk, that’s pretty rough. WALKER-HARPS: In spite of all of that we have people who achieved and during that period who came through here, who were born and raised in Griffin and attained much much success, who would have been part of an era. Sam Cooke who was born down there on 8th Street. PHILLIPS: Sam Cooke. WALKER-HARPS: Sam Cooke, Samuel DuBois Cooke. PHILLIPS: Oh Samuel DuBois yes. WALKER-HARPS: Yes, he would be one. Dr. (Rutherford?), Dr. C.C. Rutherford who became an outstanding doctor here. There are others whose names I can’t recall, even (Haskell? who -- and not to mention the sports, you know, not to mention all those prison sports who were victims. But in spite of everything else they attained much success. PHILLIPS: A lot of success came out of Griffin, doctors, Dr. (Hood, Gerald?). Dr. (Wade Stilson?) had a son that was a doctor, and I thought an athlete (Mrs. Harps?) you’ve got, I think Spalding County for the size and for the equipment that Mr. Whittaker had to teach those boys, they produce more athletes and professional football I don’t believe like any other place. Cowboys, Kansas City Chiefs, and I can name going ahead, you had about five or six came out Willie Gault, (Jessie Tuttle?), they all part of (inaudible) Rayfield right now, he played for the Dallas Cowboys, (Morris Schreib?) played for the Kansas Chiefs that was one of Mr. (Whittaker’s?) students. So Griffin has produced a lot of athletes out here in (inaudible) and you just think about a town this small produce those type of athletes. We’ve got plenty of athletes come out of here. CAIN: If you had to pinpoint one or two reasons why across the spectrum whether it’s athletics or academic achievement, what would be the reasons why you got great accomplishments that came -- and accomplished people coming out of Griffin, under circumstances in many cases where you would think there were so many barriers that would impede achievement? PHILLIPS: I think some of them is the person’s parents and the mainstream with their teachers, because the teachers like I said we had encouragement. And what they taught those kids in school and what encouragement they gave played a whole big role in their life and their parents some of the parents was determined so they had good parents. And the parents stood behind them and so that’s why they achieved, so I guess that’s why they strive so hard because they didn’t want to look back at what they came from, they want to move forward and some of them did. Some of them did achieve their goals, you know some of them probably had goals when they was in school. So it all plays both ways with the training they had in school from the teachers and from their parents. CAIN: Well said. PHILLIPS: So a lot of these kids didn’t have parents, sometimes the grandmother raised them and pushed them through, and when you’ve got a good grandmother behind you boy she’s going to make you or break you; she push you. I see some athletes down perfecting football talking about how do you come from a broken family, that grandparent, somebody, put them through school and made them grow up to be and they’re playing professional school. WALKER-HARPS: Let me ask you this as a minister or pastor we mentioned the role of the church into particularly two churches, Hicks Chapel and Acaia and I remember those and their role. But what else was different about the impact of the faith community then compared to what it is now? PHILLIPS: That’s a pretty tough question is all. I don’t know, I can’t pinpoint that, but I know those two paths were delicate. I’m not saying the other preachers didn’t or pastors didn’t you know want to get involved -- WALKER-HARPS: No, no, not pastors as such -- PHILLIPS: What do you mean now? WALKER-HARPS: Yes, but not personalities impact of the faith community. PHILLIPS: Oh you mean taking a role? WALKER-HARPS: Yes, uh-huh. PHILLIPS: Oh, okay, it’s a little different, when the preachers, when the pastors at that time found out what role they needed to play, they played that role. It was hard to get them involved, but you’ve got pastors now it was hard to get them even to come to a meeting. I know she can testify to that, she can put on a program and invite them, but they won’t show. They don’t want to get involved. Sometimes I think they should come out from behind that pulpit and get into the streets or they need to get more involved in it. And that’s the only way you’re going to relate to the community through the pastor of the church. The pastor has a big role in the church, if he relates to his congregation what’s going to happen, what we need to do it has an impact which we’re talking about. But if you sit up there and don’t say nothing from Sunday to Sunday I’m not getting involved, it’s not my problem, it’s going to be no effect. And I know she’s had several meeting, maybe one or two come and that’s about it. WALKER-HARPS: You’re right and I asked that question because my husband and I were having a conversation just this week and he was talking about his life up here what they call experiment line. And his friends and how they survived and prospered. And in the midst of all that was going on around them, and then we were wondering why was it so then and it’s just the opposite today. And we concluded that perhaps the most fundamental reason was the Christianity within the family, the spiritual support of the family the parents were not able to read or write or as well or some could not at all. But they had a strong faith and they were committed, but most importantly they believed they were what they called born again Christians and the believed, they didn’t just speak it. But it was their way of life and those Christian values gave them the strength to rear their children believing in God and religion. CAIN: One last question from me. You mentioned something earlier about households and I’m just curious, without having any statistics or numbers, what’s your sense about two parent homes years ago versus two parent homes today. Do you see a difference? PHILLIPS: Yes, a lot of difference. Back in the day the father was the breadwinner and the mom took care of the household, she would make sure those children got the necessities of things they need in life such as getting ready for school, preparing a meal for the husband. And probably later on the wife probably got a job, they were working but they still had that connection. Here you have mostly single parents and back when I was coming up you didn’t have a lot of single parents, when you’ve got single parents it takes two to raise a child in a family now, not only economical but like you said, spiritual wise, give him that character that he needs and give him that strong feeling to direct him in the right direction he need to go. So you’ve got a lot of single parents, and they don’t have that male role in there, that’s why I figured, man a lot of the young men on drugs. Because there’s no male model in the home to say hey, don’t do drugs, that’s not good. It’s hard for single, I applaud the single parent who’s got two or three children, raised those children, and put them through school. And they’ve got all this other, how do I put it, just attraction out there in their life, there’s more peer pressure on these younger generation. You know I can do this; my mother don’t tell me to do that, it’s hard on them young people they got to go home and face that. And as a mother trying to raise two or three children she’s trying to work and buy for them, there is no male in that household it’s going to be hard. And -- and before you even get into the church it’s going to be hard because, you know, she’s trying to work, she’s trying to hold that family together and some of them ain’t going to do it right, they’re going to get in the streets, they’re going to get with the wrong crowd. So it makes a lot of difference. But when we was coming up with our parents we had some -- even in the community if I went across the street and I got in something the lady going to come on the door and say, “What you doing over here, do you mom and daddy know what you at. Go on back home.” You had to go, and you did not talk back to them, you did not say anything, you got yourself up and you went across the street. My father if it don’t belong to you we would not pick up anything in anybody’s yard because it wasn’t ours. But them old folk would chastise you and your parents said, “You’d better not talk back to them people.” We respected our elders and we did not sass them out nor the schoolteacher, that was a no-no. Now it’s a different ballgame, there’s half of them parents raised with a single parent because nobody in there ready to tell them, they have the young children when they’re young. They didn’t have no structure, how do you expect for them to have babies now there is no structure, you see the young kids running the streets all the time. And if you try to call them, “I don’t have to go in the house.” “Your momma tell you not?” “I do what I please.” And it’s odd, but when you get into the spiritual side of the church I think it’s a lot, when she’s talking about your faith I think the faith and the belief is sort of is not there when we was coming along like it is today, there’s just something missing there. Oh sure the church is high now, you’ve got the choir, you’ve got all the spirit inspiration and choirs and dancing in the church and all, hey there’s more than that. CAIN: I guess I have one more question. (laughter) WALKER-HARPS: I have one too, I have more. PHILLIPS: There’s more than that now. CAIN: You know that whole saying about it takes a village to raise a child, and you know since we’ve been talking about sort of the Fairmont community and if you had to identify I guess one of the single most important institutions in that community as you were coming up was it the high school, was it -- can you identify what people really rallied around as that important institution for that community? PHILLIPS: The school played a very, very important role in the child’s life. The church in the community that played a high role in them because they was strict, and the parents in the community were strict like I said you done anything out of order in that community they’re going to call your parents and you going to get a whupping when you got home. That was just it you weren’t going to go out the way to do nothing wrong, if you did they going to call you into question about it. But the school played -- I’m going to tell you this Fairmont was put on the map by Dr. Tate. Now everybody respected Horace Tate as the principal of that school everybody who applied to go to Fairmont. Fairmont was the school because we had a winning team on basketball and football everybody respect Fairmont. And I can remember when they started having tournaments. Fairmont is the only time I believe in that era that only had a closed in gym, everybody played basketball on the outside and when they had the district tournaments they had the A, B, and C district tournaments those kids would come to Fairmont and play, all the way from Thomaston, LaGrange, Newnan, wherever you name it they would come, they’d even come farther. What the little town out Waycross they would come to Fairmont, some of the kids would stay overnight, even the parents would ask the community can you take these kids in they had to drive a long way, a lot of kids stayed overnight to play in them tournament for three days. Fairmont was really known because that’s why I said it played a high role in them kids’ life over there. That’s what happened though a lot of people don’t remember that, but all the tournaments were played in that gym, A, B, and C districts. They came Butler, (Georgia Realm?), Hogansville, (Caperton?), they played there, Douglasville, all those kids came and played at that school, they played the district tournaments there, Mr. Tate put the school on the map, and it played a high role in the community, very high role, because they respected the school. CAIN: I would bet that would be the case in a huge way. PHILLIPS: And we had a lot of teachers there that was very qualified and very concerned and I’m going to give you a list. Ms. (Mays?) was our math teacher, in the neighborhood it was two words she would come in we was all in the 10th and 11th grade she’d come in and the class would open the book, the first thing she’d say turn to chapter such and page this, I want you to illustrate and elucidate that was her two words. That means she wants you to give a meaning and work out the problem. And she’d walk right back out the door, she would not go to that board and work out and give you an example you had to butt your head and get it. So all the kids were saying she said, “That Mays just too hard, how we are going to learn all that algebra and trigonometry and that.” Maybe we had one or two that had to get by with it, you know, we had to go then and take (inaudible). But you know what happened, and I often say the same thing I was I agree Mays needs to be in the university, when she left there she went to teach at Wayne University, Detroit. She was just that way, she was a good teacher now, but she’d come in like you was going to college, walk in that door and get that one book and walk out. But she was good, she knows the math, but everybody was fearing Ms. Mays coming, Ms. Roundtree was a sweet little person, she taught us language and literary too she was good. Ms. Mollett didn’t play, she taught social service, you wasn’t going to play in that lady’s classroom she’d take you up to Mr. Tate’s office in a heartbeat. We had some good history teachers; we had some good typing teachers. WALKER-HARPS: If you remember (Mrs. Mollett’s?) -- you remember Mollett’s gym, do you remember Mollett’s Gym? PHILLIPS: I think the gym, they built the new Fairmont gym, I think I remember a little bit about it. WALKER-HARPS: You weren’t one of those who had to visit behind Mollett’s Gym. PHILLIPS: Yes, that’s right, that’s been a long time ago. WALKER-HARPS: Well you were lucky if you don’t know it it means that you never had to visit it, because I understand they had a special place behind it. (laughter) You have one question left? CAIN: No I’m done. WALKER-HARPS: We answered yours, okay, I’d like to know, now I know we still have SCLC and I also know that you continue to be active with the SCLC and NAACP is still here. Now tell me about the demise of BUGG was that in local, was that as NAACP and then SCLC from a national -- PHILLIPS: We had what you call the associate with SCL, so we didn’t have -- WALKER-HARPS: Oh BUGG was associated with this, oh okay. PHILLIPS: It was not a chapter at that time, we was an associate of SCLC but the NAACP we did have a local chapter. WALKER-HARPS: Oh I know the history of NAACP. PHILLIPS: This came in off their system because when we started having voter registration drives and started having mass marches and things they came in and put the energy and time in and chose the dos and don’ts when your picketing and when you’re doing a certain thing. WALKER-HARPS: And you named it BUGG? PHILLIPS: Yeah, BUGG. I got the chance to, that came down through Jose Williams, I got a chance to talk to Jose Williams. Jose talked to me like I’m talking to my dad, he always said he’s a friend if you need something, but I’ll send him down to help you out with the voter registration and the marches, and how I do know to keep people in line and the nonviolence. They were taught nonviolence too, but we just was associated with SCLC at that time. CRUICKSHANK: Well I guess it’s time to wrap up so thank you again Reverend Phillips for coming by. PHILLIPS: I hope I answered you questions to the best of my ability man. WALKER-HARPS: A fascinating discussion. PHILLIPS: I hope I gave you the accurate thing. WALKER-HARPS: You gave us some -- you opened the door for additional research right John. So we get to work on that. CAIN: Yes and I’ll say I enjoyed your presentation, learned a lot, and appreciate you coming in. PHILLIPS: I gave you the best of my abilities, when I talk about this God knows it’s true just the way it happened, I don’t want to exaggerate and like I said I don’t boast I just tell you it just like it is. CUNNINGHAM: Thank you so much for your time. Is there anything else you want to share with us before you go? PHILLIPS: No, first I would like to say thank you all for inviting me, especially Ms. Harps for inviting me to your program here and for your to review me or interview me if I give you some facts the same to helping Griffin, Georgia. And like I said this is my home, I’m born and raised in it and I’ve always loved Griffin, and I’ve always loved helping peoples if I could, you know, in a way some people you can help some you can’t. But I’ve loved helping peoples all my life and my momma always told me never put anyone down or think I was better than anybody else, always treat people as I want to be treated and that stuck still in me, because she had a whole lot of love, she was just that way. And I hope I’ve been on some help to you today and I look forward to working with you all in the future. WALKER-HARPS: You have and thank you for taking the time out to come because you could have said no but you didn’t, and so we do appreciate that, because if this is going to be substantial support or help to others then we need to fill in gaps and as many people as we possibly can. And as I said to you those who actually lead the life are not here so we don’t have primary sources so we’re going to have to use as many secondary sources as we possibly can. So and as we put this together we will identify gaps and go back and try to fill in with either research or searching individuals. And we’re not just local, we’re going to speak to some of those persons who lived here and who are still active but no longer live here. So we do thank you, thank you, thank you. PHILLIPS: You’re quite welcome thank you again. CAIN: What should also excite you is just think a hundred years from now, a hundred-fifty years from now somebody’s going to be listening to you and listening to this interview. PHILLIPS: Yeah it’s a strange thing, like I said I know we’re closing up, but somebody, how did you really get important, I don’t really know myself, but it had to be the work of God. You know me, I mean you just, you know your life -- I’m going to say your life is already predestinated from the time your born from the time you leave it you don’t never know what God; God has a plan for all of our lives. We just don’t know what role you’re going to play in it. WALKER-HARPS: Amen. PHILLIPS: That’s right. END OF AUDIO FILE
Resources may be used under the guidelines described by the U.S. Copyright Office in Section 107, Title 17, United States Code (Fair use). Parties interested in production or commercial use of the resources should contact the Russell Library for a fee schedule.
audio
0
RBRL418GAA-008.xml
RBRL418GAA-008.xml
http://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL418GAA/findingaid
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
93 minutes
Location
The location of the interview
Griffin, Georgia
Repository
Name of repository the interview is from
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Pastor Freddie Phillips, January 25, 2017
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL418GAA-008
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Freddie Phillips
John Cruickshank
Art Cain
Be-Atrice Cunningham
Jewel Walker-Harps
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
audio
oral histories
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Griffin, Georgia
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
sound
Subject
The topic of the resource
Segregation
Civil rights
Civil rights demonstrations
Discrimination
African American religious leaders
Religious leaders
United States--Civil rights
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-01-25
Description
An account of the resource
Freddie Phillips was born in Spalding County in 1938. As a child, Phillips attended Anne Shockley grade school and later Fairmont High School where he was a member of the marching band and basketball team. Phillips was active in the Civil Rights movement of Griffin, Georgia, during which he participated in sit-ins and picketing. In this interview, Phillips talks about his childhood, segregation, his work as a pastor, and his involvement in the Civil Rights movement.
OHMS
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Griffin African American Oral History Project
Subject
The topic of the resource
Georgia--History, Local
African Americans--History
Georgia--Communities
Description
An account of the resource
The Griffin African American Oral History Project is a collaboration between the Griffin Branch NAACP, the Griffin Campus Library of the University of Georgia, and the Richard B. Russell Library. The seed was planted in the meetings of the Educational Prosperity Initiative which is also chaired by the president of the Griffin Branch NAACP, Jewel Walker-Harps. Collaborators on the project include: Griffin Housing Authority; Spalding County Collaborative; Fairmont Alumni Association; University of Georgia—Athens and Griffin campuses; and the Educational Prosperity Initiative, which is an affiliate of the Spalding County Collaborative and others. Interviewers on the project include: John Cruickshank, librarian at UGA-Griffin Campus Library; Jewel Walker-Harps, President of the Griffin, GA Branch of the NAACP; Art Cain, coordinator of Continuing Education for UGA-Griffin; Be-Atrice Cunningham, project manager for College of Agricultural and Environmental Science for Griffin; and Ellen Bauske, senior public service associate at the Georgia Center for Urban Agriculture in Griffin. Rich Braman was the sound engineer for this project. <br />The Griffin African American Oral History Project intends to document the experiences of people who lived in Fairmont Community in Griffin, Georgia during the civil rights era and through its transformation to the present day.<br /><br />All interviews in this collection have been indexed in OHMS.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-2018
Rights
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http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
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Oral histories
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL418GAA
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Griffin, Georgia
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
OHMS Object
Contains the OHMS link to the XML file within the OHMS viewer.
https://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL418GAA-011/ohms
OHMS Object Text
Contains OHMS index and/or transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable.
5.4
Interview with Gail Reid Hackbart, May 22, 2017
RBRL418GAA-011
RBRL418GAA
Griffin African American Oral History Project
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies, University of Georgia
Gail Reid Hackbart
Be-Atrice Cunningham, Jewel Walker-Harps, Art Cain, and Ellen Bauske
oral history
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English
0
Introduction / Family, Early Life
I’m Beatrice Cunningham, and today we’ll be speaking with Gail Reid Hackbart, the daughter of Gary Reid. We’re at the UGA Griffin Campus in the Center for Urban Agriculture Conference Room.
In this segment, Reid opens by discussing her family history and her early life in Griffin. She details her family’s move to Detroit, MI, her uncle and father’s military service, and the influence her grandmother Vera had on her as a child. Reid also discusses her father Gary’s passion for public service and her early memories of the Civil Rights Movement.
82nd Airborne Division;A&P Grocery;Gary Reid;Georgia Institute of Technology;Georgia Tech;Glen Reid;Non-violent direct action;Non-Violent Protest;Peaceful Protest;Pickett Line;United States Army;Vera Reid;Woolworth's
1196
Discussion of her father’s passion for public service
ahhh …. Lets see, what else can I tell you guys. Oh! You were talking about … they were talking about my father’s involvement with the PTA …
Reid discusses her father, Gary Reid, and his passion for public service, saying that he was the first African American County Commissioner in Griffin and the President of the NAACP Griffin Chapter.
American Federation of Government Employees;Labor Rights;Labor Union;National Federation of Federal Employees;Plurality-At-Large Voting;Single-Member District;Spalding County Board of Commissioners
Segregation in Griffin / Integration of Schools
You grew up in Griffin as a segregated community.
Reid recalls the two segregated swimming pools that existed in Griffin during her childhood, saying that they were both filled with cement to prevent the integration of the pools. She also recounts her experiences attending an integrated school for the first time when she was ten years old, and her experience being one of the only fifty African-American women who were students at Georgia Tech.
Georiga Tech;integration;Northside Elementary School;segregation;separate-but-equal
2038
African American owned businesses in Griffin
Do you remember … since your dad had a business down town … do you remember any of the other black businesses that were there other than the … I know HHH …
Reid recalls some of the businesses owned by African Americans in Griffin while she was growing up. She talks about a sandwich shop owned by Otis, Raymond, and Phillip Head and a barber shop owned by Ralph and Mary Stenson.
A.C Touchstone;Atlanta Life Insurance Company;funeral homes;post office;pressing club;Solomon Street
2323
Relationship with her brother
Obviously you’re very accomplished. You went to GA TECH, you had that mission from 13 and you seem like you were very focused on that. Tell us about … in your household was there sibling rivalry?
Reid talks about her relationship with her brother who is 13 years younger than her. She says that they didn't fight a lot because she was his "built in babysitter", but she recalls fighting with her cousins who were closer in age.
exploring;family;Georgia Tech;outdoors;rocks
2468
Father's activism in the Civil Rights Movement
You’re dad was also kind of an entrepreneur.
Reid discusses her father's liquor store, and says that he also had a day job with a large trucking company in Atlanta where he did not have to worry about his civil rights activism causing problems with his work. She also discusses attending strategy meetings in the basement of the 8th Street Baptist Church when she was ten years old.
Bourbon Street;Civil Rights Movement;Georgia Tech;Hill Street;Ku Klux Klan;package store;peaceful protests;protests
3394
Discussion about her son and family
Can you talk a little bit about your family? You mentioned your son.
Reid talks about moving to California while she was working for the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) and getting married to a white man. They had a son and moved back to Griffin, Georgia. She recalls being concerned about how her son would be treated because he looked white but had a black mother. She says that her son passed away in a dirt bike accident when he was fourteen, but she later adopted a little girl because she felt like she wasn't done being a mother.
Daytona, Florida;Foster to Adopt Program;Georgia Power Company;Griffin High School;machete;SoCal
4315
Accomplishments at Georgia Tech
Oh by the way, when we were at Georgia Tech we were protesting.
Reid talks about some of her accomplishments during her time as a Georgia Tech student. She recalls participating in sit-ins on the president's lawn and protesting professors who did not want to teach minority students. She also discusses founding the Alpha Kappa Alpha Georgia Tech chapter and becoming the president of that chapter. Reid also says that she believes the current student body at Georgia Tech is not as connected with the history of the school and the Civil Rights Movement.
<i>Hidden Figures</i>;Black House;Georgia Tech Afro-American Association;GTAAA;Office of Minority Educational Development;Omega Grad Chapter;Rosa Parks;Spellman College
5421
Relationship with her father
So before we wrap up today is there anything else that you would like to share with us that you have not talked about?
Reid talks about her relationship with her father, and says she was always "daddys little girl." She says that her son and her father were her support system and she goes to visit their graves often.
Isaiah Miller;VFW;Westwood Gardens Cemetery
RBRL418GAA-011_Hackbart BE-ATRICE CUNNINGHAM: I’m Be-Atrice Cunningham and today we’ll be speaking with Gail Reid Hackbart, the daughter of Gary Reid. And we’re at the University of Georgia Griffin Campus in the Center for Urban Agriculture conference room. So today we’ll be conducting an interview as part of the Griffin African American Oral History Project. And today with us is -- JEWEL WALKER-HARPS: Jewel Walker-Harps as president of the Griffin Branch NAACP. ART CAIN: Art Cain, University of Georgia Office of Continuing Education. ELLEN BAUSKE: And Ellen Bauske, University of Georgia Center for Urban Agriculture. CUNNINGHAM: All right, well thank you so much for joining us today Gail, and if you can just start off by telling us a little bit about your history -- your family history. GAIL REID HACKBART: My family history, there is so much. Hopefully I can remember enough that this interview is read for a while. My father, Gary Reid, had a twin brother, Glenn Reid. They were children of a family of 12 children living here in Griffin, Georgia. They were born and raised here in Griffin, Georgia. When I was two and a half, my parents moved to Detroit and so did my uncle. He moved there also for a while. Apparently the job situation was better there, so they moved there and when it got better they moved back. So that was when I was five and a half. I recently had to do some paperwork for my mom about VA benefits and things. And I knew that my father had been in the Army. He and his twin brother both had been in the Army and they were part of the 82nd Airborne. What I didn’t realize is that my dad had signed up for the Army two times. Not just once, he was in twice. Then it was -- he was a Korean veteran, Korean wartime veteran. And so why that happened I don’t know that. I guess that my mom would have the details on that. But that was a surprise to me. But growing up with my father and my uncle, the Civil Rights Movement for me started at the age of 10. My awareness of the Civil Rights Movement started at the age of 10 because they had me out working picket lines. And these were places like -- A&P, Woolworths -- A&P being a grocery store -- because of their hiring practices and the way they treated the African American customers that came in to their stores. And then by the time I was 12 I was working boycott lines, and I remember specifically working a boycott line in front of Woolworths department store in downtown Griffin. And we were of course walking back and forth in front of the store and encouraging African Americans not to go in and shop. And I remember having someone come up and say, “I want to go into the store because they’ve got that picture of Martin Luther King there in the window. And I want to go get that picture of Martin Luther King.” And I looked at him and I said, “Go.” (laughs) It’s like if that is really that important to you that you’ll fall for that just because they have that picture of him in their window but you can’t go in and sit down at the counter and eat lunch, that’s on you. That’s not on me. My father and my uncle -- my father, Gary, and my uncle, Glenn, their thing was to make things better for the next generation. So in my life that’s always been what I think about too is what do you do to make things better for the next generation. Like I said, they grew up in a family of 12 kids. My father had a scar on his cheek because when they were growing up and you’ve got 12 kids around the table trying to eat, you better be fast (laughter) getting to the food. So the scar on his face was from a burn mark he got because he was trying to grab a sweet potato off the table before anybody else got it and it was hot. (laughter) And he was funny too. He and my uncle, if you ever got them in the room together with another person they would cut them to ribbons. I would just sit there and just laugh because they were just -- they were awful. But my father believed in everybody’s rights. It didn’t matter whether they were black or white or Asian or even what their sexual orientation was. He fought for everybody’s rights. He was in court for all kinds of stuff. And he just never -- he just didn’t look at it as, “Oh I’m --“ and when he became president of NAACP, he didn’t look at it as just, “Oh they’re not black. They’re not African American so I’m not going to help them.” It wasn’t like that. It was like anybody who needed help, he wanted to stand up for and help them. Yes. CAIN: Can I interject a question? BAUSKE: Sure, sure. CAIN: Okay. You know, one of the things that I read in an article about you was you gave your grandmother a lot of credit for influencing you. HACKBART: Yes. CAIN: And I assume influencing her children. HACKBART: Yes. CAIN: Could you also talk about that as you move for-- as a part of the narrative? HACKBART: Her influence on me? CAIN: Yes. HACKBART: My grandmother, from what I understood, was an educator, which probably came in handy with the 12 kids. But as I was growing up and I was learning how to do different things, like my father was an excellent tailor. He could sew very well. WALKER-HARPS: I didn’t know that. HACKBART: Huh? WALKER-HARPS: I did not know that. HACKBART: You didn’t know? He had an alteration shop downtown for a number of years up on Eighth Street right across from the (Head’s?) businesses up there. And so when I was seven I started sewing things and I would sew by hand. And so I would come up with my own patterns and I would sew different things. So when I turned 12 he had the shop downtown. So he would let me come in and there was somebody that was working in there with him and they were helping him do the alterations and stuff because he was still -- he still had a day job. So they would be in there while he was at work and then after work he’d come in and he worked there too. And then on the weekends he would be there the whole time. And I’d walk from our house downtown and go hang out at the alteration shop with them. CAIN: Was it -- was your father’s shop patronized by everybody in the community or just primarily African Americans? HACKBART: It’s hard to remember, but I think it was patronized by a lot of different groups. But that particular area of Griffin was primarily black businesses, so it’s hard to remember right now. There wouldn’t have been a problem with anybody else being in there, but I don’t -- there’s not anything in my mind that says that it was only African Americans that patronized that business. WALKER-HARPS: Probably not since the Heads had a business and they were patronized by both. HACKBART: Yeah, so it’s possible. I wasn’t necessarily taught to look at color when I was a child. And my brother who’s also named Gary but his name is Gary Wesley, and so he wasn’t Gary Jr. Everybody thinks he’s Gary Jr. but he’s not. His name is Gary Wesley, Gary Wesley Reid. I remember when he went to kindergarten and he got a culture shock because he actually ran into people who were little five year olds who were discriminating against him because he was African American, because he was black. And it was a shock because he had not been raised to look at color and that was the first time that he’d ever experienced that there was something different about people. That they just -- it wasn’t -- they didn’t think of themselves as just being people. And I wasn’t raised that way either. But of course I did become aware as I got older, especially working in the picket lines and the boycott lines. But getting back to being 7, being a little girl, another one of the things I liked to do was I liked to draw a lot. And I was pretty good and I could just -- you know those little matchbox things that says draw this picture. I used to do those things. And my grandmother would see -- my Grandma Vera, she would see me doing all the drawing and stuff and she said, “I don’t want you to be -- to grow up to be a starving artist. So I want you to look at becoming an architect.” I said, “Okay.” Of course I didn’t know what that was. So at some point I said okay let me research this. So I started going to the library and looking it up and seeing what exactly is an architect, what do they do, how much money do they make. (laughter) So I found out what they did and it was a thing of being creative and you could make a decent salary. And I also found out that Georgia Tech was a school that I could go to to get a degree in architecture. And it was right up the road. And at the time that I made the decision on Georgia Tech I was probably 12. And at that time I think they had probably just started accepting women into their college. So I started looking at what I needed to do in order to get there. And what I had to do was do a whole lot better on my grades than I was doing because I wasn’t doing that great. I mean I was average. I was like okay I got to step this game up. So I just went from 0 to 60 (laughs) in a years’ time. And from that point on it was on. It was on. So that when I got to high school I was in the Beta Club. And when I graduated, I graduated 11th in my class and I had a grade point average of 3.92. And I’d already been accepted at Georgia Tech during my junior year. As a matter of fact, they had told me that if I wanted to I could just go ahead and come early right after my junior year and not have to do -- not do my senior year in high school. But I wanted to have fun so I stayed in Griffin to enjoy my senior year in high school because I knew it was going to be a breeze. (laughter) And I knew once I got to Georgia Tech I was not going to have that breeze anymore. Did you want to hear any more about that part or you want to get back to -- CAIN: Well, I -- just for documentation purposes, I always like to know kind of when your father was born, when your mother -- when your grandmother was born. That kind of syncs up the eras. BAUSKE: And your mother too because we (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) as well. CAIN: Yeah and your mother. We want to hear about your mother. HACKBART: Okay, okay. When my grandmother was born, that one’s going to be kind of hard to backtrack to. My father was born in 1932, in January of 1932. He was one of the three youngest children. He, his twin brother, and my Uncle Sam were the three youngest. And by the time they came along, the older kids were old enough to take care of the younger kids. So the sister that took care of my brother was my Aunt Christine. No that took care of my father was Aunt Christine. Aunt Stell took care of Glenn. (laughter) So, wow, I’m trying to figure out when she was born. I don’t know. It has to have been around the 1900s or something. I’m just not sure. CAIN: But that gives us an idea. If we know when the children were born you can kind of figure out -- you can kind of go back and figure out in and around where their mother was born. HACKBART: Right. CAIN: And gr-- CUNNINGHAM: Did your parents -- go ahead. I was going to say did your parents tell you anything about what their life was like growing up? HACKBART: Let me see, I have to think about that one. Well for my mother it was not hard at all. (laughs) She was the oldest of four children. She was born in April 1935. And they lived right down on Solomon Street down the street from where my dad and his family lived. But my grandfather worked for -- he was really good friends and worked with the Cheathams. As a matter of fact I’m named -- my first name is Ashley Elizabeth, I’m named after Elizabeth Cheatham. So he worked for them in their house. He was their chauffer and he was a great cook and everything. But he also worked in some of their mills. And the house he had down on Solomon Street, they helped him buy that house. So I remember doing an interview with my grandmother about -- my mother’s mother, about what they did during the Depression, how the Depression affected them. And it was -- I’m just sitting there looking at her going, “What?” She had a job. My grandmother who as I was growing up I never knew her to work. But during the Depression, she had a job. But what they did with her money was she’d go out and buy a new dress every week or they’d go to the movies. It wasn’t oh yeah we had to use that money to buy food or pay for this or pay for that. No, they went to the movies or she bought a new dress okay? So my grandmother’s parents were -- her father was a methodist minister. And people would just give them food and stuff. They just really didn’t have it that hard. I don’t remember talking to my father’s mother about what happened with them during the Depression, but I know that they weren’t that well off. They were kind of poor. But I don’t remember my dad sa-- other than the thing about them having to fight for the food at the table and some little antics that he and my uncles would get into, you know going down the street messing with people or whatever. My grandmother apparently ran a tight ship. None of them were in trouble. None of them went to jail. CAIN: Did they all go to Fairmont? HACKBART: Yes they did. My mother included went to Fairmont, yes Fairmont High School. WALKER-HARPS: Your mom was a majorette. HACKBART: Yes she was a drum major. She was -- yeah, she was a lead majorette. We have old pictures of her in her uniform with her baton yes. WALKER-HARPS: And your dad had followed along on the sidelines to protect her. HACKBART: Oh okay. (laughter) Are you sure it was to protect her? Because as I recall, in his earlier years he had a bit of a jealous streak, yes. WALKER-HARPS: Yeah. HACKBART: (laughs) He was protecting what was his. WALKER-HARPS: Right. (laughter) HACKBART: I’m sure. WALKER-HARPS: Now your family, your mom’s family I believe or which one was it, your mom or your dad who was almost a part of the Cheatham family? HACKBART: It had to be mama’s family. WALKER-HARPS: Okay, mama’s side. CAIN: And when you say a part of the Cheatham family? WALKER-HARPS: They were -- the Cheathams were -- HACKBART: They were very close. WALKER-HARPS: -- very, very close yeah. BAUSKE: Who were the Cheathams? HACKBART: Yeah, my grandfather and -- WALKER-HARPS: The Cheathams was a prominent white family in Griffin. HACKBART: Right, right. My grandfather and Elizabeth they were friends. And that’s why he named me after her. And her son, Jackson, is still in contact with us, with the family. WALKER-HARPS: I remember when somebody died then they stepped in and offered their services and kind of took over. HACKBART: Right, right. But he lives in San Diego now but he’s still in contact with the family. She passed away a few years back. CUNNINGHAM: Earlier you mentioned that your father was in the military. Can you share with us any of your recollection of his remem-- anything that happened during the military? HACKBART: That they told us about? CUNNINGHAM: Sure, (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) share. HACKBART: Well stuff like they were both in the 82nd Airborne. If one of them had KP duty and needed to go somewhere, the other one took his place. BAUSKE: And no one knew? HACKBART: No. BAUSKE: Good job. (laughter) HACKBART: As a matter of fact, I guess I can tell this now too. Even when they were here in Griffin and they were working in the Civil Rights Movement, if one of them had a meeting and couldn’t get there because they had to go to work or someplace else the other one took his place. BAUSKE: That’s how he got around so well. HACKBART: Because there were two of them. CAIN: That’s amazing. HACKBART: Shane used to say that all the time. My son Shane, when he was about three -- because my uncle had left and moved to North Carolina. And when -- then -- and we were living in California and we moved back when my son was one. When he was about three my uncle moved back from North Carolina so my son would see the two of them, the two twins together. And he would say, “That’s two grandaddies.” (laughter) He couldn’t tell the difference and they didn’t care. (laughs) Let’s see, what else could I tell you guys? Oh you were talking about my father’s involvement with the PTA. CAIN: Well and also just his passion for public service. He apparently -- he was NAACP president, he was a commissioner. HACKBART: He was the first African American county commissioner yes. WALKER-HARPS: Not only was he that, but he worked very hard to make that possible. It didn’t just happen that he was elected. There was a court case and we’re going to bring somebody in who hopefully will talk about that. That came as a result of Gary, myself, and -- matter of fact they’re all dead now -- but who worked awfully hard to get away from at-large voting to single-member districts. And that allowed Gary to be elected (inaudible). HACKBART: I think there are some things in the scrapbook on the newspaper articles about that. WALKER-HARPS: Probably so because that changed a phase of political life in Griffin. CAIN: But it took courage -- WALKER-HARPS: Oh yeah. CAIN: It took courage. WALKER-HARPS: Our lives were threatened many times. CAIN: And so just that passion, that courage, where it came from, how you viewed it. HACKBART: Well you know what, it’s hard sometimes. I guess it’s hard for me to say where it came from because it was just there. Because even though they left here and went to Detroit and stayed there for a few years and then came back, I can’t tell you what the catalyst was for what they did. Maybe it was the idea that they had to make things better for their children. My Uncle Glenn had five children and we grew up living next door to each other. And it was like we were living in each other’s’ houses because we were just back and forth between each other’s houses. But I can’t tell you what it was. I don’t think he ever even said to me what it was. But I know that the idea in his head was you have to make things better for the next generation. And I also think that it was a sense of what is right. You have to do what is right. And that affected me even years later because I was for many years when I was working for the federal government, which is what I -- I just retired from working with them about a month or so ago. I was a union rep and one of the main reasons I did it was because of the way I grew up. With my father is it’s just when things are not right you can’t just sit there and just look. You need to move out and do something about it. Now granted at some point in time I got tired of that battle. WALKER-HARPS: Well they were firing. Let me tell you that they were firing. They did not back off from a fight. If you were to see the sparks and put Gary and Glenn at the table, and they always had my back. So I was the (meek?) one but the power was really behind me in them. HACKBART: And they knew what you had to do to get something done. When I started working -- when I graduated with my second degree and went to work for Georgia Power Company and I was down at Plant Vogtle in Augusta and I was just -- they were just giving me a hard time because I was a woman. And so I called Daddy and I was like, “They’re doing dut, dut, dut, dut, dut, dut, dut, dut, dah.” And he says, “Write it down. Whatever they do document it, write it down.” He says, “If you don’t write it down, it didn’t happen. But if you write it down and you have to go before a judge you can hand them the paper saying this is what they did. And that counts.” WALKER-HARPS: You grew up -- go ahead. CAIN: Go ahead. WALKER-HARPS: You grew up in Griffin as a segregated community. You were around at the time swimming pools were closed right? HACKBART: Oh yeah, oh yeah. I never did learn how to swim. (laughs) I ended up taking drown proofing in college but I never did learn how to swim. Yeah that was interesting because we had a swimming pool at Fairmont, which was at Fairmont Recreation Center, which was the swimming pool that was primarily used by African Americans, black people, in Griffin. And we would go over and get in the swimming pool and splash around. And then they had the swimming pool over at City Park, which we didn’t go to because that’s where all the white people went to swim. And I don’t think I was even thinking about going over there to swim with them. But apparently somewhere along the line when we started doing desegregation, somebody realized that we were going to all end up swimming in the same pool together. And the next thing I knew we had no swimming pool because they filled them both up with cement. CAIN: Both at Fairmont and at City Park? HACKBART: Both at Fairmont and City Park. BAUSKE: Got rid of the problem. HACKBART: Yeah, well yeah they took the apple away. Nobody could get a bite of that. (laughs) CAIN: How did that get resolved ultimately? HACKBART: Ultimately there is one public swimming pool and it gets very crowded. (laughs) CAIN: But what brought folks to their senses? Was it just over a span of time where there were civil rights -- HACKBART: Yeah I think over a span of time people just decided that it just didn’t make any sense that there was no public swimming pool in the city. Do you -- WALKER-HARPS: They unpacked around -- what is it? Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka, Kansas. The fallout from that really started to boil over. And that was the period -- the beginning of the period of integration of the schools and what have you. HACKBART: That would’ve been when I was 10 because that was my first -- that was the first year that they had integrated schools and that was the first, and I went. In the fifth grade I went to an integrated school. CAIN: That brings up another issue. WALKER-HARPS: (May not know that one?) CAIN: So you went into integrated settings for the first time at 10. Could you talk about some of those experiences and where the school was, which school you went to, et cetera? HACKBART: I went to Northside Elementary School. And it is -- while the building is still there, it’s on Hill Street. It’s on Hill Street and Cherry. It’s right there in that area. And when they did it, it was not -- it was never a question for me of whether or not I would go, whether or not I would do it. It was like it’s here, we’re doing it. We’re doing it. It was my duty to do this, to step out and do this. And it was -- everything was pretty cool. I had really good teachers. I didn’t have teachers that were going, “Oh well you’re this, you’re that. We’re not going to work with you.” My teachers were pretty good. The only really negative experience I can remember was one day on the playground where another kid said to me, “Oh you’re just a piece of burnt bacon.” And I said to him, “I’m the prettiest piece of burnt bacon you ever saw.” (laughter) We weren’t really taught to back down. I don’t know if that’s a good thing or a bad thing. It could be a bad thing in some situations. But at that point in our lives we were kind of taught to tackle it, taught to tackle whatever the issue was. CAIN: Were there other African Americans who entered that school at that time with you? HACKBART: Yes. Now I can’t tell you -- right now I can’t tell you who they were but yeah there were. There were a few of us there. There were quite a few of us there. CAIN: That had to be a decision your parents made. HACKBART: No. (laughs) It wasn’t really. It was never -- they never looked at me and said, “So we’re going to make this decision. You’re going to go here.” But they also didn’t look at me and say, “Where do you want to go?” It was, I -- it was like -- for me it was like I was in the fight, so this was just a next step in the fight. I was going. There was not a question. It was not them forcing me to go because they didn’t -- because Vernell, my uncle’s oldest daughter, she refused to go. She refused to go to Griffin High School. But I mean I have to understand that because if I was going to the 5th grade that meant she would’ve been in the 10th grade. She wanted to stick with the kids she’d gone to school with all her life and graduate with them. So she didn’t go. She didn’t go to Griffin High School. She stayed at Fairmont High. But like I said, for me it was like I was in the fight. And I didn’t really have this thing of yeah I’ve been with these kids since the first grade because I’d already moved from Moore Elementary to Atkinson. This was just another school for me. CUNNINGHAM: So after you entered the integrated school were there any noticeable differences between the integrated school versus these segregated schools? HACKBART: What was still being talked about was still the inequalities in educational material. I don’t -- I can’t give you specifics on what I may have noticed when I was going to Atkinson as opposed to when I went to Northside Elementary. But I know that there was still some controversy about the materials that were being provided. WALKER-HARPS: And Northside was located pretty close to a mill, so I can imagine that that school even though there were whites and blacks, the quality and the atmosphere would probably have been different from what would’ve happened on the south side of town because of the mills, the proximity to the mills in that area, (Thomas Doug Collin?). BAUSKE: Would the mill schools not be as good as say the south side? Is that what (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). WALKER-HARPS: I’m thinking that. BAUSKE: Okay. HACKBART: Yeah it’s possible. BAUSKE: Then you hit Georgia Tech as a black person and as a woman. HACKBART: Oh yes. Yes, there were -- BAUSKE: Talk about that please. HACKBART: There were probably 50 black women on campus at that time. And we probably apparently all knew each other because there weren’t that many of us there. And the ones that were there they brought us in. They took us under their wings. They helped us to get around and try to understand the culture of things. And yes there were a lot of professors -- white professors there who didn’t want us there. But we basically had the mindset was, “We don’t really care what you want. We’re here and we’re going to do this. So do what you will. We will be doing our thing and we will get through it.” Because I had a faculty advisor who was very questionable as far as I’m concerned. I mean of course they don’t say anything but they are not encouraging. And for me he was very discouraging. Like I said, I knew going from high school and having easy street and going to Georgia Tech, it was not going to be easy at Georgia Tech. So occasionally I got grades that I would’ve preferred not to have, but hey it happened. I wasn’t stopping. As my dad would tell me -- as Daddy would tell me, “If you don’t get it the first time do it again. Keep going until you get it.” Mama on the other hand was like, (inaudible). (laughter) So two totally different personalities as far as that was concerned. But once this guy who was my advisor. CUNNINGHAM: We need to stop for just a second. BAUSKE: Until they get done (buzzing?). CAIN: I’m going to go tell this man to hold off on -- going whenever you’re ready. HACKBART: Okay. I’m ready. CAIN: Ask the question about business. BAUSKE: You were asking about -- WALKER-HARPS: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) Do you remember, (inaudible) says your dad had a business downtown. Do you remember any of the other black businesses that were there other than the Heads. I know Triple H and -- the Triple H Sandwich Shop rather. And (Watson Drycleaners?) there and it was a pressing club. HACKBART: Yeah there was a pressing club and the -- wasn’t there a restaurant down near their restaurant? Wasn’t there a restaurant that belonged to the -- wasn’t that the Head’s restaurant too? WALKER-HARPS: Yeah they had a restaurant. HACKBART: Okay and then that was where the original Eighth Street Baptist Church was down -- was right down the street. WALKER-HARPS: Across the street from Triple H Sandwich Shop -- HACKBART: Right, right. WALKER-HARPS: -- competing with them for -- at that time the church did food and peddled it out for the meals. And it was a booming business which competed with Triple H. And finally had to stop because Triple H could not allow them to undersell the restaurant. HACKBART: Yeah and I guess that must’ve been where -- because I know Daddy’s shop was there. I’m tr-- well after Daddy’s shop left there, it was a taxi stand. It was -- that building down there now on the corner, it’s a restaurant. I think it’s a Japanese restaurant or something? WALKER-HARPS: Yes, uh-huh. HACKBART: His building was next to that one. WALKER-HARPS: Oh okay. HACKBART: Right between where the post office driveway is and that building starts or something or that business starts. It was in there. WALKER-HARPS: And there was Atlanta Life Insurance company there too. But that section, that block, apparently belonged to the Heads and the Touchstones across the street from where the post office is now. HACKBART: Right, yes. Yes, and I’m trying to remember what was directly across the street from the shop and I don’t remember. But I remember the restaurant was kind of up like where the post office is. And then the pressing club was across the street from that. And then Ms. Stinson had her hairdressers around the corner from the -- WALKER-HARPS: On Slaton Avenue. HACKBART: -- from the pressing -- from the pressing club. WALKER-HARPS: The mecca -- really that area was the mecca of black business. We’re going to bring somebody in who’s going to -- who can remember and talk about those businesses that were there. HACKBART: Right, but when you -- if you were African American and you were going out to eat, you were going to that restaurant. (laughs) WALKER-HARPS: Triple H. Otis Head, Raymond Head, and Phillip Head, the Triple H’s from Tuskegee, Alabama. They were in school at Tuskegee I understand. HACKBART: Right, yeah. Who else was down there? WALKER-HARPS: I was interested because somebody was telling a story that the pressing clubs were called pressing clubs because of the fact that you could -- the men could walk in and have their clothes pressed while they waited. Take their pants off and sit around and talk and have their pants pressed and then put them back on. HACKBART: Okay, well I didn’t have to experience that part of it. (laughter) WALKER-HARPS: They declared that that (inaudible) and that I do not know. But that’s how the name came about of pressing club. CAIN: Well I know there was a barbershop someplace. WALKER-HARPS: There was. CAIN: When you mentioned coming in and talking and then you just mentioned -- but there definitely was a barbershop. HACKBART: I think the beauty shop and the barbershop were in the same place. WALKER-HARPS: The Stinsons, yes. HABCKBART: Yeah Ralph and Mary Stinson. WALKER-HARPS: Ralph was the barber and Mary was the beautician. HACKBART: And I think it was Mary’s brother Milt that -- he was the one that got my brother into cutting hair yeah. WALKER-HARPS: And there were a few others down, (Snow Callaway?) further down. HACKBART: Yeah he was further down on -- well I remember him having one on Solomon Street. Did he ever have one up on Eighth Street? WALKER-HARPS: I don’t know. And funeral homes, there were the funeral homes. And naturally there had to be funeral homes because block folks didn’t get to go to white funeral homes at that time unless it was in the middle of the night and through the back door. HACKBART: Yeah I think the only one I remember from way back then was probably McDowell’s. WALKER-HARPS: I don’t remember. I remember McDowell’s. I don’t remember others but somebody’s coming in who does remember the Crocketts and a few others. Okay we can move on. Go ahead Art. CAIN: Well I was just thinking, obviously you’re very accomplished. You went to Georgia Tech. You had that mission from 13. And you seem like you were very focused on that. Tell us about in your household was there sibling rivalries? Tell us about -- HACKBART: No, my brother is 13 years younger than I am. He was born about a month and a half before my 13th birthday. So I was the built-in babysitter. And for him it was like having two mothers. So no we never -- we didn’t fight. He would go hang out with me. And as a matter of fact, he was kind of our class mascot when we had our graduation. We have pictures somewhere. But when I graduated, he was with me. He had his little graduation thing on because everybody thought he was so cute. No we didn’t fight. We didn’t fight. I fought with my cousins, with my uncle’s kids. CAIN: Cousin rivalry. (laughter) BAUSKE: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) looked alike. HACKBART: But I fought with them like they were my brother and sisters yeah because we spent a lot of time together. And we went romping through the woods together and exploring because we moved -- when we moved down there on Bourbon Street there wasn’t a whole lot of development around the area. WALKER-HARPS: Rocks, a lot of rocks though. HACKBART: A lot of rocks. We found this huge rock that had an indentation in the middle of it. And the moisture would get in there and it was like moss growing inside of it. It was really beautiful. And we’d just go romping through and picking plums and berries and muscadine and crabapples. And there was a stream down further from where we lived. We’d go trumping down through there and looking at the stream and stuff. We didn’t get in it. We were just looking at it because that’s where we got our water from that stream at that time. We didn’t have -- they didn’t have running water out there so it was pumped up from the stream, yeah. WALKER-HARPS: Your dad was also kind of an entrepreneur. You talked about his ability to sew, but if I remember correctly he also had another business during his lifetime -- HACKBART: Oh yeah, oh yeah. WALKER-HARPS: -- which proved to be quite a challenge. HACKBART: Yes. My parents owned -- initially they owned a package store selling beer right on the corner of Bourbon Street and Hill Street. And my mom would probably have to give you more of the details on it but I’m sure they didn’t have an easy time getting a license for that store. But they -- I don’t remember how long they were there but they stayed at a building that was on that corner. Well that building is gone by the way. But they worked and they rented that building out and they worked that package store. And then after a few years they bought property just a few yards up the street and they built a liquor store. So they had beer, wine, liquor, they had all of it. And they had in the back -- the extra property in the back -- they planted corn on the extra property in the back. So it was kind of weird for me I guess because it seemed like they were just doing very well, you know, which they -- for the most part they were. My dad would still work his day job and in the evenings he’d come home and work at the liquor store. And my mom would be there primarily when he wasn’t there. At some point, he did stop working the regular job and worked there -- just worked there at the liquor store. And when I would come home from breaks from college I would work in the liquor store. So it was easy money. WALKER-HARPS: That was also a challenge though. His work was really a challenge because most of his jobs were out of town. HACKBART: Yeah they -- he and my uncle worked for many years with a company called -- can I say the company name? I don’t even know if they’re still in business anymore. But it was a company that did repairs on trucks, on tractor-trailer trucks. And this was -- they were with a particular trucking company and it was in Atlanta. It was over by Atlanta University, over by Spelman and Clark, all those places over. And when I was -- so when I was at Georgia Tech I would take MAADA and go over to where he worked. And he would give me money and tell me, “Don’t tell your mother.” (laughter) Okay, so yeah they -- and it was around that time I think everybody was -- a lot of people were doing that because there were -- the jobs here just weren’t paying that much. The jobs in Griffin weren’t paying that much. So they would take that drive. They would carpool and take that drive up to Atlanta so they could make the extra money. WALKER-HARPS: And if they were paying they weren’t hiring civil rights workers. They weren’t hiring anybody who was as (fiery?) as -- HACKBART: Right, and at that time you know they’d go to south -- this is Griffin. They’d go to south Atlanta and down in south Atlanta. Down in south Atlanta they don’t know who they are. At Griffin everybody knew who they were, but in south Atlanta they didn’t know. So he and my uncle both worked there. CAIN: And you don’t want to say what the trucking company’s name was? HACKBART: I can. It was (Few Hoff?). WALKER-HARPS: You would’ve thought that they would’ve had booming businesses here. But that was not the case. Because they were civil rights workers and they had done favors and gone out on a limb for many, many, many of us. You would’ve thought that any business, any self su-- any personal business or whatever that was established here that they would’ve had the full support of the black community. But that was not the case. That was one of the challenges and I don’t know why. And we used to say, “Well the beer’s not as cold as the beer down the street,” or whatever. But for some reason -- and I guess it was a mental thing. HACKBART: But that also probably just made it easier for them to do what they did because by working there they didn’t have to worry about whose toes they were stepping on in Griffin because the influence wasn’t going to reach them where they worked. WALKER-HARPS: And they did not worry about whose toes they stepped on. I know Gary didn’t worry about whose toes they stepped on. The sacrifice was great because I can remember when we were having a program at Eighth Street Baptist Church, and the night before the program the news came out that there had been threats on two of our lives. And so we had to halt the program and get -- I don’t remember if it was FBI, some law enforcement agency out of Atlanta to come down. And there was a -- Earl Shinholster was the person coming to speak at that time. He said, “Well they don’t need to come down and walk through there just to look and say it’s okay because they’re going to have to (bring the door up?) and do an extensive search of the church before we decide to go on. But that’s just one of the examples of the challenges and the way of life that I knew -- I am aware of that happened to Gary (inaudible) as president. He had many other threats. And there were many deals offered to him that would have been beneficial to him had he been that kind of person. But he wasn’t. You didn’t hand him anything under the table. You didn’t set him up. He’s, “What the heck? (inaudible).” Well we used to call it mother wit but wisdom in terms of being able to read people. So there were many times when he was set up. He was invited to go places, somebody else would go -- would be out investigating or looking around to find out exactly what it was so that we did not walk into a trap. So I’m saying that to say there were many, many challenges that faced him and the rest of us during that period of time. HACKBART: And he was -- he would be a peacemaker in some cases because -- there may be even a story in here about a situation where something was going on or some program or something was going on and the Klan showed up and they were marching and protesting. And he just went out and just had a face-to-face conversation with whoever their leader was that day and they went on their way. And it wasn’t threatening or anything, it was just a very peaceful conversation and they parted ways. CAIN: I would be curious -- I know when you look at sort of the national Civil Rights Movement and student involvement and folks at leaderships involvement, there was a lot of planning that went on so things would come off the way it was intended. Was there that kind of planning, that kind of strategy among folks here in Griffin when you kind of had identified a goal of what you were going to do? HACKBART: Now that I wouldn’t know. WALKER-HARPS: In the basement of Hicks Chapel Church yes there was. People who were mostly active are no longer around, but yes there was. And most of it happened in the basement of Hicks Chapel because I believe Reverend Shropshire was here at that time. And he was -- he was very hated. But Mary Stinson, Reverend Shropshire. Oh gosh, a lady who was a hairdresser, many others were there that are no longer with us now would meet and plan, strategize, yes. And that was a little bit before my time too. I was -- I might have been here working here but I was not living here. And if you were living here and you were a teacher you didn’t do it anyway. I was just crazy that it did not matter to me that I worked for the school system that I also worked with NAACP but you just did not -- you did not do that. But somehow or another I hooked up with Gary and went to work. But you didn’t do that. And that was where Reverend Shropshire was from. He was also an educator and president of NAACP, so I guess that’s probably why he had to leave. He had to go too. But yes, the answer to your question is yes there were strategy sessions. HACKBART: And I was a soldier, so basically it was like, “Okay this is what we’re going to do. This is what I need you to do. These are your instructions.” So yeah, because, like I said, when I started I was 10. So I wasn’t really in on the planning part of it. WALKER-HARPS: Were you out there with Linda Weems is all I can remember who were out there on the streets and they were getting beaten and whatever. And their daddy standing on the sideline saying -- HACKBART: No. WALKER-HARPS: -- “That’s my daughter and you hurt my daughter,” or whatever. HACKBART: No, I was shielded from that. I did -- I never experienced the thing of being beaten or having to watch people being beaten. BAUSKE: That happened in Griffin? WALKER-HARPS: When I say beaten maybe that’s too strong a word but law enforcement pulling you out of the way or trying to calm you. BAUSKE: Ms. Jewel when you said you were afraid you were going to be set up, did you mean -- WALKER-HARPS: People were always coming to you call-- about this meeting and come here and do that and whatever. BAUSKE: And then were you afraid physically to go to those meetings? WALKER-HARPS: Oh yeah, you were afraid physically to go. You made sure that -- yeah, you -- BAUSKE: Did they try to set you up legally or politically like, “Here have this.” And then if you take it, come down with the law. Did that sort of thing happen? WALKER-HARPS: We were always aware of that. We didn’t take things. We didn’t take favors. And that’s another thing that I can give Gary credit for. Don’t do favors and we don’t take gifts because then there’s always that obligation. So there was -- and hopefully somebody will come in who can talk about the human relations committee. It wasn’t called human relations but it was an integrated group of women. Ms. Crossfield and Ms. Cheatham are -- were two that I can remember who helped to bridge the gap during the civil rights period so that it was no more violent than it was because of this group. And it wasn’t called human relations but that’s the kind of work that they were doing. And (Raymond had?) to have a meeting of the minds so to speak so that they could work -- peacefully work out conditions that would’ve been otherwise much more violent. CUNNINGHAM: So is there anybody around from that period that -- WALKER-HARPS: No, nobody that I know. No, they -- as far as I can remember they all gone. So it would be secondary information that we would get. And there are probably some people around who would know. Phillip Head may know because his brother was a part. HACKBART: But you can’t talk to him. WALKER-HARPS: He won’t talk. His brother was a part of it but he won’t talk. And Frank Touchstone perhaps would know also because of his uncle who was -- whose income came from the black community. And as a result of that he was able to funnel money into the Civil Rights Movement when people went to jail or whatever or to be a lot more active than those persons who worked for the system. And he would -- he probably would remember but he’s not talking yet either. HACKBART: Okay. WALKER-HARPS: Well he’s physically unable. CAIN: Now I was just going to ask her since her father was in such a high profile role in Griffin, do you remember specific threats like Klan threats to him? I know there were Klan threats but do you recall any of that? WALKER-HARPS: Were you all ever afraid? HACKBART: I don’t recall being afraid. WALKER-HARPS: I guess that was your question in essence. CAIN: Well you know we’ve had folks come in and say there was a cross burn on a lot or something like that. And again, anytime you have change it -- you can get a reaction to that. And if he’s a high profile person initiating some change, and I know he was kind of a peacemaker too and that kind of thing. But I just wondered if there was any kind of threat or any -- any kind of reaction from a group like the Klan during that time that you can recall? HACKBART: I can’t really recall that there being any such thing. We -- it was when we first moved back to Griffin from Detroit we lived on Chapel Street. And the Heads lived across the street from us. And I think they had an incident at their house while we were there. WALKER-HARPS: They did, they did. HACKBART: But I don’t recall when we moved out on Bourbon Street there being any incident with anything near. What my -- my dad and my uncle were very -- how do I put this? You didn’t mess with them okay? They weren’t opposed to beating you up if you caused a problem. (laughs) I mean they believed in protecting themselves and protecting their own, so if that was known by groups like the Klan or something they may not have bothered us because of that. I don’t know but I don’t recall anything ever happening or him saying that we needed to watch out for something or that anybody was threatening him. BAUSKE: Can you talk a little bit about your family? You mentioned your son? HACKBART: Okay. My family, my son okay. So after I had finished my second degree and I went to work for Georgia Power Company. And I worked for them at their nuclear power construction in Augusta and wasn’t real happy with being down there. I was able to get a job working with the federal government working with FAA. So my first assignment with them was in Daytona Beach during spring break. (laughter) So I worked for them in the southern region, which -- the southeastern part of the United States for three years. And then they moved me from being in Florida to being in Alabama and I was wanting to do something different anyway. And I had a cousin who was living in southern California, (Bev?), Uncle Glenn’s youngest daughter. She was living in San Diego at the time. And I went out to visit her and I decided I wanted to move to California. Luckily I was able to transfer there with the FAA to a job out there. And progression was much faster out there than it was here as far as moving up into different positions. Because here I was in the field, I was in the field, I was in the field. And people that were in the field with me were moving into the office. It’s like, “How are you guys moving into the office?” Because they would know about jobs that I didn’t -- they weren’t telling me about. But once I moved to California, I was like -- I was there a few months and I was in an office job. Because there they told you what was going on. And here it was still that good old boy system, they’re picking and choosing who they’re going to tell that this job exists. And so I was able -- out there I was able to move up more quickly in the organization. I even was in a management position for a while while I was there. Well I got married while I was living in California. And my husband was white and I had my son while I was still out there. And his name was Shane because his father’s -- he liked that movie -- CAIN: Oh Shane. (laughter) HACKBART: Yeah, yeah. So his father was on a (tie rug?) team so he really wasn’t really home that much. He was different places and so I was basically there with my son by myself. I mean although I had friends who would come over and my husband’s mother would come and help us out and things like that. I decided I wanted to come back home and be closer to my family here and so we moved back here when my son was about a year old. And we stayed with my parents for a couple years and then we built the house over in Carriage Hills. And my son and I moved into the house and my husband was still travelling around. And at some point I decided the marriage was not working for me and so we ended up getting a divorce. When my son was probably about five we got divorced. And he and I still stayed over in the house in Carriage Hills. And he -- my son, he was just a sweet, special, little blonde-head, blue-eyed, angel face kid. And he just attracted attention everywhere he went and it was just a very interesting thing to be with him here in Griffin. Because my husband was here with us for a while and we would be riding around in the car and I just had to learn just look straight ahead. Because if I looked to my right or to my left there were people like going -- (laughs) “Wow.” And I would take Shane we’d go -- I’d go to the grocery store and he’d be in the little car seat and the little kids, little white kids especially, would come up and just stare at him, look at me and look at him. And they’d say, “Is that your baby?” (laughter) “Yes.” Of course their parents would just be going, “I’m not touching that.” So yeah that part was interesting. After a few years of he and I being here -- of Shane and I being here people kind of backed off on that. Of course I was still concerned about him because he did look like a little white boy, and you know a little white boy with a black mom. And I didn’t know all the time when we went places how people would react to that. And he went once without me to a -- to one of those -- those parties they used to have, those block party kind of things they used to have. I forget what they called them now. WALKER-HARPS: I’m older than you. I really forget. HACKBART: They had -- they used to have -- CAIN: Is it outside? HACKBART: They used to have these community parties where the community would just get together and have a party because they just wanted people -- WALKER-HARPS: Mm-hmm I remember but I don’t know what they called them. HACKBART: -- in the community to get to know each other. So they went to one over by Aunt Stell’s house. I wasn’t with them. I was traveling or something. So he went with I guess Gwen had sent some of them. And when I got back from wherever I was they said, “Oh well he was over there and he got into a fight.” I said, “What?” So basically it was like here’s this little white boy in this black neighborhood and you know little bad boys are going, “Why you in our neighborhood? Why you in our neighborhood?” He’s like, “Man what you talking about?” So he was probably eight or nine or something at the time. Was he that or was he a little bit younger? I think he was eight or nine. So they decided they were going to beat up on him so they went after him. And after that I put him in karate classes. But he had -- he had a lot of his grandfather in him. They said, “We don’t know what you’re complaining about. He was giving it to them just as bad as they were giving it to him.” (laughter) But he, like I said, was a special little boy. I had him in private school for a few years and then I decided we could probably just save that money for college. So for his freshmen year he went to Griffin High School. And it was during the fall of that year that he -- well he had this dirt bike. And when I bought him the dirt bike I wanted to buy him something that was going to hold up for a while and be a good thing for him to have. And where we were we were in the city so it wasn’t a whole lot of room for him to really ride around on it. So I took it to Mama’s house, to Mama and Daddy’s house, because they were outside the city and he could ride the bike up and down the street and nobody would care. So he’d been given certain restrictions of you can’t do this, you can’t do -- you can’t cross the street, you can’t do this, whatever. And he had the helmet and the breast thing and all the pads and everything and the gloves. And he told me that when he was at her house if he put that stuff on that -- and he was riding wherever. He said the kids said, “You look like something out of Star Wars.” So he got to a point where he wasn’t wear-- he wouldn’t wear that. But I forgot to tell them about the -- let me tell you about the machete story first. One of the private schools he went to they only went to school four days a week. They went to school Monday through Thursday. Fridays were reserved for field trips but he didn’t do a field trip every Friday. So the Fridays that he didn’t do a field trip he would go and stay at Mama’s house because I had to work so he’d be at Mama’s house. Well he was old enough that he could be by himself and she’d have something to do like she’d have to go to the hairdressers, which that particular day she had a hairdressers appointment and she went to the hairdressers. And I’m in my office working and I get a call from him on my cell phone. And he’s like, “I’m dying.” “What? What is wrong with you?” [01:06:00] “My foot is bleeding. I’m dying. I’m dying.” “Did you call 9-1-1?” “Yes I called 9-1-1 but I’m dying. There’s blood on my foot. I’m dying.” And one of the guys in the office was hearing this because of course he’s telling me this and my voice is getting elevated there in the office you know? And so I was like, “Okay just call 9-1-1 and I’ll call Mama and we’ll get them there.” And so I called her and she’s like, “What?” -- called my mom like, “What?” because she’s got to get from wherever she’s doing back home to see what was going on with this kid. So one of the guys in the office heard me with the elevated voice and he came over and he says, “Okay I hear what’s going on.” He said, “When they get there, when your mother gets there tell her to take him not to the emergency room tell her to take him to his doctor’s office.” I said, “Okay, okay.” So I call the doctor’s office and I tell them. And the reason he said that was because if you go to the emergency room he was just going to sit there and wait as opposed to going to the doctor’s office and they say, “Okay let’s get him in here and do this right away,” which is exactly what happened. Well what happened was we had this machete at my parent’s house that I played with when I was growing up, okay. I had gotten it from one of my uncles, one of my great uncles. And it was not -- it wasn’t sharp, so I would just mess with it, just play with it. Well after I left home Daddy got hold of it and he sharpened it up and he’d use it to chop down things. Well after Daddy was gone it was still there at the house and Shane found it, okay? So what he had done was he had gone down into the woods and he was chopping at trees and everything. And he was doing these karate moves and chopping at the trees and kicking the trees and stuff. Well he made a mistake and kicked and chopped at the same time. And so the point of this machete hit a seam -- and he was wearing boots too -- hit a seam on the boot just right that it cut through the seam and went into the boot into the top of his foot. So he was bleeding out from this. But I think the fact that the boot was on there was kind of helping it contain itself a little bit. And that’s what had happened, why he thought he was dying because he was bleeding out on the boot. So when he called 9-1-1 they sent the sheriff’s department out there. And my mom’s fussing at him about being down to the woods with the machete and stuff and they said, “Ma’am, you see those kids down the street in the flat hanging out?” They said, “You should be grateful he’s out in the woods playing instead of hanging on the corner with these kids down here trying to do drugs.” BAUSKE: Good point. WALKER-HARPS: Very good point. HACKBART: So yeah and he was -- that was the kind of antics and stuff he would get into. But he got to a point where he didn’t want to wear the helmet and all that stuff with the dirt bike because the kids in the neighborhood were making fun of him. And he went out one day, and I saw him and it just didn’t dawn on him that I was at Mama’s house. And I was sitting there at the kitchen table and I saw him go with the bike out to the street and drive off. And I didn’t -- just really didn’t think about it until he didn’t come back. And so I’m calling him on his cell phone and he’s not answering and I said, “Let me go find him.” And when I went to go find him I found that he’d been hit by an SUV riding the dirt bike. And he did not pass away instantly. It was later on that night at one of the hospitals -- children hospitals in Atlanta that he passed away later that evening. He was 14-1/2. So one of the things that he loved to do was he loved to play soccer. And we knew that there -- at the time, I don’t know how it is now, but at the time that there weren’t a lot of scholarships for kids playing soccer. So we do a scholarship fund. We did a -- what is it, 50C-3? CUNNINGHAM: 501(c)(3). HACKBART: Yeah 503(c)(3), the nonprofits. And we do a scholarship fund annually in his memory. WALKER-HARPS: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) planted a tree. HACKBART: Sunday was his 23rd birthday. WALKER-HARPS: Somebody planted a tree in his memory. Was that -- where was that? HACKBART: At Griffin High School they have a memorial garden where they plant -- they put trees and plants out for the children. So we planted a tree there in the garden for him. CAIN: And after you told that story I almost feel like I need to say I express my condolences even now. HACKBART: Okay. But behind that I wasn’t through being a mother so I got into the foster-to-adopt program. And in 2010 my little girl, Sharah, came to me. She was three days old. So she’s in school now today. CUNNINGHAM: Seven year old? HACKBART: She’s six. CUNNINGHAM: Six. HACKBART: She’s six. She was born late in the year. It was August 30, 2010. Oh by the way, when we were at Georgia Tech we were protesting. We were doing sit-ins on the president’s lawn and that good stuff, all that good stuff. CAIN: Now that’s always interesting to me. I’m not too far from your era in college. I’m a little older than you. But students protest a lot of times for a lot of reasons: conditions on campus and injustices on campus and things out in the community that’s going on and things that are going on nationally. Tell us maybe a little bit about your protests. HACKBART: It was a lot of the same things. Like I said, we did have professors that didn’t want us there. So we were protesting those things. We were protesting the dropout rate for the minority people, the minority students. And we recognized the fact that a lot of the minority students were coming there already behind the curve because we didn’t come from high schools that had the same level of education, the advanced levels of knowledge that a lot of the other kids had. And there were gaps there. Because we were -- so we were facing the discrimination of teachers and (unintelligible) in the class and then you were facing that gap of trying to catch up. So out of that they did develop having an office called Office of Minority Educational Development, OMEN, that started the same year that we chartered the sorority there. So they’re still going with that, and that program was to help fill that gap. That if students came in and found that they were not able to keep up because they didn’t know that much about calculus or whatever then they could go to that office to get help to be able to catch up and to fill the gap in. BAUSKE: Can you tell us a little bit about the sorority? Your mother spoke a while back with great pride. HACKBART: Okay. So at Georgia Tech there were a lot of sororities and fraternities, traditionally white sororities and fraternities. And I think timing is a really interesting thing because if I had taken them up on going to Georgia Tech a year earlier I may not have run into the people that I ran into. So when I got to Georgia Tech I met two people who became really good friends of mine at the time. They were just very opposite people, and they still are very opposite people, but they were good friends of mine. And they both were legacies in that their mothers were AKAs. And it was not really something I had really thought about, but when I met them and we would talk we said -- the three of us said, “We’re going to do this. We’re going to do this.” So since they were legacies they had the contacts. And they were able to talk to their mothers and find out about the grad chapters and we were able to get on the radar for Kappa Omega, which was one of the grad chapters for Alpha Kappa Alpha in Atlanta. And us with 70 young ladies from Spelman, because they didn’t have a chapter either at the time, ubiquitous 73 became that line that was the seed for the chapters at Georgia Tech and at Spelman. WALKER-HARPS: So Kappa Omega now has a rich history. HACKBART: Yes. WALKER-HARPS: Did they recognize it I don’t know. HACKBART: Yeah, well they -- it seemed to be pretty rich at the time anyway. So then there were the three of us there on campus. And we said, “Okay, we’ve got some work to do,” because you needed a certain amount, you needed a minimum of 20 members in order to have a chapter. So we started recruiting and I think it may have been -- I don’t know if it was the first or second line. It must’ve been the first line that we recruited to get to our minimum of 20. Now -- I won’t tell you guys all that. (laughter) BAUSKE: Oh come on. WALKER-HARPS: You can tell us. HACKBART: You know when you put a bunch of people in a room together and they make a decision, I don’t know why you put the same people in the room together and expect to make a different decision. (laughs) And I say that because when we started working in -- actually it must’ve been the second group that we had that actually made enough for us to do a charter. But when we started working we did the first group. For some reason they told me that they wanted me to be in charge. I’m the leader of this thing here. Okay, so that’s why all the articles because they put it all on me. It’s like, “Okay, now we want you to be the foot soldier.” So I was the one going to the meetings and doing this and doing that and making applications and finding people and all that other stuff. And then when we had our chartering, the ladies from Kappa Omega said, “Okay now you guys need officers. We want you guys to go over here. We want you to pick this, this, this.” And one of those of course was for the president. And so we walked into the room and they’re like, “Why do we waste a vote on a president? It’s you.” And so everybody said, “Yeah it’s you.” So that’s how I got to be -- (laughs) the first basileus for the chapter because it was like they just all agreed it was just going to be me. So I was like, “Okay, I’ve been doing it this far. I may as well take it the rest of the way.” CAIN: You know on many white campuses during that era, there was a movement to have what I’m going to call “black student unions.” And they kind of evolved during that time. What was the case at Georgia Tech? HACKBART: We had the Black House. And we did -- and they still have it. They have the -- oh man, it’s called the GTAAA. I guess that must -- I think it’s the African American Association. CUNNINGHAM: That’s it. HACKBART: Yeah, so yeah we had that. And like I said, we had the Black House. So we had -- every week we’d have meetings. And at the Black House we’d have parties. So was that supposed to be our substitute for a sorority -- fraternity/sorority thing? It didn’t work. (laughs) It didn’t work. But I mean we had fun. We definitely had fun. And we had a support system. CAIN: But it was a place where folks could congregate and talk about issues in addition to having a social outlet. HACKBART: Right, we knew what was going on. And that was where most of -- the stuff about us doing our protesting, that’s where it came from. That’s where we would get together to talk about what’s going on and what we need to do about it. And that’s why we end up sitting on the steps outside the president’s office and stuff like that. Because we were there together communicating, talking about what was going on and what needed to go on. If they created that for us as a fraternity/sorority substitute, they just shot themselves in the foot. Because we used that as a platform to figure out what we needed and to go after what we needed. WALKER-HARPS: Is there still a need today for such? Do you know whether we continue to have such new groups? HACKBART: I hear stories about what that group is like these days and what the students are like. And the students just they’re not connected to the past on what’s gone on at that school. They don’t get it. They think it’s all about them right here and now. They don’t get that it wasn’t always as easy to get into that school as it is right now or I mean to even be considered to get into the school. They don’t get that it’s a big deal to actually get your degree and go out into the world. So many of them fail because they don’t seem to have the drive to succeed and they don’t seem to be able -- they don’t understand that they need to help each other. WALKER-HARPS: But isn’t that a carryover from what -- from their home life? You see the same thing here in your local community. So would they not take that to college and it would have the same meaning to them? HACKBART: Yeah maybe so. WALKER-HARPS: Yeah this is the same practice. This is what we were talking about earlier Art. There’s a subtle -- or a disconnect. HACKBART: But I -- but the thing is, is it because they didn’t see it happen? I don’t -- but you’re saying though that their parents are like that though. Well yeah, and it -- there were even, back when I was growing up I’m sure, a lot of people who were just so disengaged that they wouldn’t know. WALKER-HARPS: Somewhere along the line we failed to teach our children. We have not taught them well and there’s this break in the chain. And they either don’t know or have an appreciation for it. HACKBART: It’s -- they have -- it’s an apathy. They don’t recognize it. They don’t know it. It doesn’t relate to them. It’s got nothing to do with them. And it still actually has a lot to do with them because whether they realize it or not they’re still facing a lot of discrimination. They’re not thinking about the fact that even though they don’t remember it, some of their professors do and they -- the professors may be okay with them flunking out. Some of them actually may be glad that they’re flunking out. BAUSKE: Confirms expectations. HACKBART: Right, right. It’s unfortunate but it’s like you can’t seem to get through the wall to say, “Hey, you have something that you need to guard. You don’t need to be taking it for granted.” I don’t -- maybe it’s that we didn’t -- we haven’t taught them that they should value this -- these things. I hope that with my son that I was at least teaching him -- I know that he was a little bit political. He didn’t like it when he went to school and they would sit there and they’d talk about President Bush and how wonderful he was. And he’d be sitting there going, “No he’s not and stop talking about it. I don’t want to hear it.” (laughter) Of course they’re probably looking at him going, “Why is this child talking to us.” And that was when he was in private school. CAIN: But he came home and told you. HACKBART: Hmm? CAIN: He came home and told you. HACKBART: He came home and told me yeah. And I never heard anything from them about it so I guess they figured that if he knew enough to say that to them that they were not going to say anything to me about it. And I hope that with Sharah I can get her a sense of what’s going on. But it’s been interesting because she likes that movie Hidden Figures. I had to buy the movie because she wanted to see the movie again. I took her to see it the first time. And she’s a hyper little thing and I was actually really surprised that she sat there to see it. And she fidgeted a little bit but she likes that movie. And she would tell me about parts of the movie, so she got it. And she read the little storybook on the Rosa Parks story. And so she’s got that this stuff happened, that these were things that happened in the past, that things weren’t always as nice as she sees them right now, that they were different. And it doesn’t make her hate anybody because she’ll tell me about little friends at school. And it’s not -- it’s never this little black girl or this little white girl or anything. It’s just people. So she gets it. She gets that this is something that happened in the past but things for the most part are different now. I don’t know if she gets that she still has to watch out for what might happen. But she is very much aware of what happened in the past. CAIN: How old is she? HACKBART: She’s six. CAIN: Wow. That’s truly amazing. WALKER-HARPS: Apparently she’s getting the same teaching and training that you received, which allowed you to go to California. And your daddy -- you come home and your daddy wonder why would you marry a white person. Well because of the way you were raised and because of what you were taught. And I had to -- HACKBART: He never -- he never -- that was never even a question. WALKER-HARPS: I never -- (Hackbart laughs) I never understood until today. We would wonder well why would -- they came out of a family a part of the struggle and they would go and marry of the opposite race. HACKBART: Because they told us even as children they didn’t care. They didn’t care what color the person was that we married. WALKER-HARPS: I see now. I hear you now. (Hackbart laughs) But I’m saying that there were many blacks who wondered -- HACKBART: Why, yeah, yeah. WALKER-HARPS: -- why. HACKBART: Yeah, what she’s speaking of is that there are -- we do have a few interracial marriages in our family yeah. WALKER-HARPS: Yeah well all of the families (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) in your family. CAIN: In many families, African American families, I think that was the message folks got that folks were kind of human first. And that this whole thing about racial division, you deal with people how they deal with you and so forth. HACKBART: Right, right, right. Exactly, how they deal with you, you feel them out to see whether they’re on your team or they’re just going to be just total opposite all the way down the line. And that’s how you deal with them yeah. So my dad was not one to give people a whole lot of chances in that area. Once he figured out where you were coming from, that’s the way he reacted to you. And he was not one to -- if you were going to mess up and continue to go in that direction, he was going to be sure to cut it off quick. (laughs) WALKER-HARPS: That’s how he looked at it. He did not look at it in terms of color, but he did look at it in terms of whether it was good for you. HACKBART: So I picked up a lot of things from my dad in that respect. Mama tends to give people that two or three different chances, so does my brother. And I was just one -- I am just one if I see that it’s just not -- it’s just going to go the wrong way or it’s just you’re going to be somebody that’s going to always be tripping me up, I’m going to cut that off, shut that down as quick as I can. So the one thing that slowed me down on that was I went to a training class with FAA. And they taught me that if you were dealing with a person and you only had to deal with that person for that day that moment and you’d probably never see them again for the rest of your life, just let it go. (laughs) Let it go. If you don’t have to get into -- if you can get your issue resolved without having to get into really going to battle with them, let it go. Don’t waste your energy. Save your energy for the battles that really matter. BAUSKE: That was good advice. WALKER-HARPS: Yeah that’s kind of my philosophy too. CUNNINGHAM: So before we wrap up today, is there anything else that you’d like to share with us that we haven’t talked about? HACKBART: Well there’s probably a whole bunch of stuff. (laughter) My -- I was always daddy’s little girl. And he was always the support system for me. Like I said, from being in college and the different classes and things that I had and the issues I had and even going into the workplace, if I had a problem I was going to call him and say this is what’s going on what should I do? And, like I said, he was the one who told me, “If the class -- if you’re failing the class don’t worry about it. Just do it again. Just do it until you can -- until you get it. Don’t quit.” He was my serious support system. And whenever I go to visit his grave and Shane’s grave, that’s the thing that just gets me every time I go there is that two people -- the two men in my life who were my support system are gone, (crying) I’m sorry. WALKER-HARPS: Yeah he was my support system too. He was like a brother to me. He was always there had my back. CAIN: Would you like to say where they were laid to rest? HACKBART: They’re in -- over on Everee Inn Road, that’s Westwood Gardens. Yeah I was just there a couple days ago. And he liked that idea too because when I bought the plots for -- I bought four plots, two of them for him and my mom. And at the time there weren’t a whole lot of white -- a whole lot of black people buried over there. So when I did that he liked that. (laughter) WALKER-HARPS: And I remember you pointed -- you pointed that out me at that time. Yeah I remember now you doing that. Well I can remember when we had the fair for him when we were recognizing him. And we had an envelope and we were going to give him a donation because that was our tribute. So I took it to him. “No, what are you doing?” (laughter) “No.” He would not accept it. He wouldn’t accept anything. HACKBART: That’s what this one -- this -- when I did this one, -- WALKER-HARPS: Okay, oh (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) oh okay. HACKBART: -- this scrapbook, that was the one that was at -- we had that at -- in that program. Growing up the way I did with him, with my uncle, with my mom, that’s what made me the person that I am. And I thank God that he put me where I was with the people that I was with and the way that I grew up. Yeah, I have accomplished a lot in my life. But it’s because of the way they raised me and the things that they taught me and that you move forward, that you made things better, that you fight for other peoples’ rights, and you try to do the right thing. WALKER-HARPS: Wonderful. CUNNINGHAM: Thank you so much for being with us today and sharing your dad and your mom’s story and your story as well. HACKBART: Thank you. Thank you for letting me do it. Sorry about the tears. But, like I said, I was at the cemetery a couple days ago and it was my son’s birthday so -- CAIN: We can all relate to the emotion of losing folks and what they meant. WALKER-HARPS: And he was loyal to friends. I don’t think he ever got over the death of Isaiah. HACKBART: No. Yeah that was -- I don’t think -- I wasn’t here then. I think I was still in California. WALKER-HARPS: Yeah you were. HACKBART: He -- I think they had stopped -- they stopped working the store for a while or something. WALKER-HARPS: Yes. HACKBART: But he -- when he finally fully retired and he was working in the liquor store, he had a best friend. I can’t remember Isaiah’s last name. WALKER-HARPS: Miller. HACKBART: Okay yeah. And Daddy would be at the store closing up -- getting ready to close up the store. And Isaiah was working at the -- was he at the American Legion or the VFW? WALKER-HARPS: VFW. HACKBART: Okay. He’d be working -- he was working at the -- would work the bar at the VFW. And he would leave earlier than Daddy was finishing up at the store so he would leave there and go over to the store and keep my dad company until my dad closed up the store. And one night they were in there and they were -- my dad was getting ready to close up. And three young men walked in with guns and they were wanting to rob the place. And my dad had -- he had a gun in the store of course. You know back then businesses, you keep guns in there. But he was not going to reach for the gun because Isaiah was standing out in the front of the counter so he was fully exposed to these three guys. And so my dad just went in the register and he gave them the money. And as they were leaving one of them turned around and just started shooting, so he shot my dad’s best friend. And he lingered in a coma for a week or two and then passed away. And my dad could never go back into the store again. CAIN: When was that? WALKER-HARPS: About 30 years ago, 20 years anyway. HACKBART: Yeah maybe 20 because I was still in California. So it could’ve been 30 but maybe 25. WALKER-HARPS: Perhaps. Perhaps because I don’t think I was president at that time. I think we were in the process of transitioning at the time that that happened. So it was pretty close, about 25 years. Your mama said to me, “Okay,” at Jimmy Holland’s funeral, “Okay, then have you thought about the fact that all of your little group is gone? You’re the last one here.” (laughs) I think about that all the time. “They’re all gone, all except you.” I said, “Yeah, I hadn’t thought about it but you’re right. Don’t want to think about it either but you’re right.” Isaiah, Jimmy, Blake, Glenn, Richard. HACKBART: And Richard was a cousin of mine too. WALKER-HARPS: That’s it. BAUSKE: Thank you very much. CAIN: Thank you. HACKBART: You’re welcome. END OF AUDIO FILE
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audio
0
RBRL418GAA-011.xml
RBRL418GAA-011.xml
http://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL418GAA/findingaid
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
98 minutes
Location
The location of the interview
Griffin, Georgia
Repository
Name of repository the interview is from
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Gail Reid Hackbart, May 22, 2017
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL418GAA-011
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Gail Reid Hackbart
Be-Atrice Cunningham
Jewel Walker-Harps
Art Cain
Ellen Bauske
Format
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audio
oral histories
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Griffin, Georgia
Rights
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http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Type
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sound
Subject
The topic of the resource
Civil rights
Segregation
School integration
African American women
Civil rights demonstrations
United States--Civil rights
Discrimination
Student movements
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-05-22
Description
An account of the resource
Gail Reid Hackbart grew up in Griffin, Georgia as the daughter of Gary Reid, a prominent Civil Rights activist in Georgia. Gail attended Georgia Tech, where she started the Alpha Kappa Alpha chapter and participated in marches over the unfair treatment of minority students. In this interview, Reid Hackbart discusses her childhood, education, and her work in the Civil Rights movement.
OHMS
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Griffin African American Oral History Project
Subject
The topic of the resource
Georgia--History, Local
African Americans--History
Georgia--Communities
Description
An account of the resource
The Griffin African American Oral History Project is a collaboration between the Griffin Branch NAACP, the Griffin Campus Library of the University of Georgia, and the Richard B. Russell Library. The seed was planted in the meetings of the Educational Prosperity Initiative which is also chaired by the president of the Griffin Branch NAACP, Jewel Walker-Harps. Collaborators on the project include: Griffin Housing Authority; Spalding County Collaborative; Fairmont Alumni Association; University of Georgia—Athens and Griffin campuses; and the Educational Prosperity Initiative, which is an affiliate of the Spalding County Collaborative and others. Interviewers on the project include: John Cruickshank, librarian at UGA-Griffin Campus Library; Jewel Walker-Harps, President of the Griffin, GA Branch of the NAACP; Art Cain, coordinator of Continuing Education for UGA-Griffin; Be-Atrice Cunningham, project manager for College of Agricultural and Environmental Science for Griffin; and Ellen Bauske, senior public service associate at the Georgia Center for Urban Agriculture in Griffin. Rich Braman was the sound engineer for this project. <br />The Griffin African American Oral History Project intends to document the experiences of people who lived in Fairmont Community in Griffin, Georgia during the civil rights era and through its transformation to the present day.<br /><br />All interviews in this collection have been indexed in OHMS.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-2018
Rights
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http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Oral histories
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL418GAA
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Griffin, Georgia
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Location
The location of the interview
Griffin, Georgia
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
82 minutes
Repository
Name of repository the interview is from
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
OHMS Object
Contains the OHMS link to the XML file within the OHMS viewer.
https://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL418GAA-012/ohms
OHMS Object Text
Contains OHMS index and/or transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable.
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Russell Library for Political Research and Studies, University of Georgia</repository><funding></funding><repository_url /><interviewee>Jeff Jordan</interviewee><interviewer>John Cruickshank</interviewer><interviewer>Art Cain</interviewer><interviewer>Jewel Walker-Harps</interviewer><file_name></file_name><sync></sync><sync_alt></sync_alt><transcript_alt_lang></transcript_alt_lang><translate>0</translate><media_id></media_id><media_url></media_url><mediafile><host>Kaltura</host><avalon_target_domain></avalon_target_domain><host_account_id></host_account_id><host_player_id></host_player_id><host_clip_id></host_clip_id><clip_format>audio</clip_format></mediafile><kembed><iframe id="kaltura_player" src="https://cdnapisec.kaltura.com/p/1727411/sp/172741100/embedIframeJs/uiconf_id/26879422/partner_id/1727411?iframeembed=true&playerId=kaltura_player&entry_id=1_m9ewqiq0&flashvars[streamerType]=auto&amp;flashvars[localizationCode]=en&amp;flashvars[leadWithHTML5]=true&amp;flashvars[sideBarContainer.plugin]=true&amp;flashvars[sideBarContainer.position]=left&amp;flashvars[sideBarContainer.clickToClose]=true&amp;flashvars[chapters.plugin]=true&amp;flashvars[chapters.layout]=vertical&amp;flashvars[chapters.thumbnailRotator]=false&amp;flashvars[streamSelector.plugin]=true&amp;flashvars[EmbedPlayer.SpinnerTarget]=videoHolder&amp;flashvars[dualScreen.plugin]=true&amp;flashvars[hotspots.plugin]=1&amp;flashvars[Kaltura.addCrossoriginToIframe]=true&amp;&wid=1_srbc584m" width="640" height="360" allowfullscreen webkitallowfullscreen mozAllowFullScreen allow="autoplay *; fullscreen *; encrypted-media *" sandbox="allow-forms allow-same-origin allow-scripts allow-top-navigation allow-pointer-lock allow-popups allow-modals allow-orientation-lock allow-popups-to-escape-sandbox allow-presentation allow-top-navigation-by-user-activation" frameborder="0" title="Kaltura Player"></iframe></kembed><language></language><user_notes></user_notes><index><point><time>32</time><title>Upbringing and Research</title><title_alt></title_alt><partial_transcript>Let's just start off by finding out a little bit about your background... </partial_transcript><partial_transcript_alt></partial_transcript_alt><synopsis>Jordon talks about his upbringing in Wayne, Michigan and his parents' work in the Air Force. 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He explains his work in Partners for a Prosperous Griffin and poverty awareness. He describes how the issue of poverty is avoided in both the physical and cultural segregation of cities throughout the US. </synopsis><synopsis_alt></synopsis_alt><keywords>Michigan State University;Will Doss</keywords><keywords_alt></keywords_alt><subjects></subjects><subjects_alt></subjects_alt><gpspoints><gps></gps><gps_zoom></gps_zoom><gps_text></gps_text><gps_text_alt></gps_text_alt></gpspoints><hyperlinks><hyperlink></hyperlink><hyperlink_text></hyperlink_text><hyperlink_text_alt></hyperlink_text_alt></hyperlinks></point><point><time>1264</time><title>Discussing poverty</title><title_alt></title_alt><partial_transcript>But without the ability to talk about and recognize...</partial_transcript><partial_transcript_alt></partial_transcript_alt><synopsis>Jordon talks about the stigmas around poverty, and how he believes it is centered around the hesitation of discussions about race. 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He adds how his opinion on race is different from his son's. </synopsis><synopsis_alt></synopsis_alt><keywords></keywords><keywords_alt></keywords_alt><subjects></subjects><subjects_alt></subjects_alt><gpspoints><gps></gps><gps_zoom></gps_zoom><gps_text></gps_text><gps_text_alt></gps_text_alt></gpspoints><hyperlinks><hyperlink></hyperlink><hyperlink_text></hyperlink_text><hyperlink_text_alt></hyperlink_text_alt></hyperlinks></point><point><time>2829</time><title>Race across generations / Segregation in society </title><title_alt></title_alt><partial_transcript>My son, actually that's an interesting question...</partial_transcript><partial_transcript_alt></partial_transcript_alt><synopsis>Jordon continues to describe how he and his son differ on their understanding of race in American society. He explains how education has shifted towards inclusion, while housing continues to be segregated based on race and income. </synopsis><synopsis_alt></synopsis_alt><keywords>poverty</keywords><keywords_alt></keywords_alt><subjects></subjects><subjects_alt></subjects_alt><gpspoints><gps></gps><gps_zoom></gps_zoom><gps_text></gps_text><gps_text_alt></gps_text_alt></gpspoints><hyperlinks><hyperlink></hyperlink><hyperlink_text></hyperlink_text><hyperlink_text_alt></hyperlink_text_alt></hyperlinks></point><point><time>3256</time><title>Mixed-income housing / Addressing poverty </title><title_alt></title_alt><partial_transcript>Is there any place in America that is...</partial_transcript><partial_transcript_alt></partial_transcript_alt><synopsis>Jordan continues to touch on the issue of racial segregation through housing and potential solutions to the issue. An example he gives is mixed housing plans where neighborhoods are constituted of different income classes. Jordan talks about the challenges that face policy makers in addressing poverty in today's political and social climate.</synopsis><synopsis_alt></synopsis_alt><keywords>public housing</keywords><keywords_alt></keywords_alt><subjects></subjects><subjects_alt></subjects_alt><gpspoints><gps></gps><gps_zoom></gps_zoom><gps_text></gps_text><gps_text_alt></gps_text_alt></gpspoints><hyperlinks><hyperlink></hyperlink><hyperlink_text></hyperlink_text><hyperlink_text_alt></hyperlink_text_alt></hyperlinks></point><point><time>3690</time><title>Jordan's Legacy </title><title_alt></title_alt><partial_transcript>Jeff, you've been here in Griffin for 34 years... </partial_transcript><partial_transcript_alt></partial_transcript_alt><synopsis>Jordan talks about his legacy and his ultimate wish that the University of Georgia will play a role in positive societal changes. Jordan describes the importance of universities as a source of inspiration for students who may feel constrained by class or race. </synopsis><synopsis_alt></synopsis_alt><keywords>community;Georgia Experiment Station;Griffin, Georgia</keywords><keywords_alt></keywords_alt><subjects></subjects><subjects_alt></subjects_alt><gpspoints><gps></gps><gps_zoom></gps_zoom><gps_text></gps_text><gps_text_alt></gps_text_alt></gpspoints><hyperlinks><hyperlink></hyperlink><hyperlink_text></hyperlink_text><hyperlink_text_alt></hyperlink_text_alt></hyperlinks></point><point><time>4060</time><title>Universities and the community </title><title_alt></title_alt><partial_transcript>And my wife at school tells me this all the time... </partial_transcript><partial_transcript_alt></partial_transcript_alt><synopsis>Jordon recalls how a field trip grant for his wife's school affected students in their small community. He explains how universities should showcase opportunity for kids in the community. Jordan and the interviewer discuss the importance of trust between communities and universities in addressing local issues. </synopsis><synopsis_alt></synopsis_alt><keywords>education;University of Georgia</keywords><keywords_alt></keywords_alt><subjects></subjects><subjects_alt></subjects_alt><gpspoints><gps></gps><gps_zoom></gps_zoom><gps_text></gps_text><gps_text_alt></gps_text_alt></gpspoints><hyperlinks><hyperlink></hyperlink><hyperlink_text></hyperlink_text><hyperlink_text_alt></hyperlink_text_alt></hyperlinks></point><point><time>4468</time><title>Making changes with race relations </title><title_alt></title_alt><partial_transcript>But to make real social change... </partial_transcript><partial_transcript_alt></partial_transcript_alt><synopsis>Jordan talks about the characteristics organizations need in order to make changes in low-income communities. He reflects on the social changes that have taken place over the years, and the future changes that need to happen, specifically relating to race and poverty. Jordan emphasizes the importance of understanding history and social structures for addressing current and future problems.</synopsis><synopsis_alt></synopsis_alt><keywords>poverty;University of Georgia (UGA)</keywords><keywords_alt></keywords_alt><subjects></subjects><subjects_alt></subjects_alt><gpspoints><gps></gps><gps_zoom></gps_zoom><gps_text></gps_text><gps_text_alt></gps_text_alt></gpspoints><hyperlinks><hyperlink></hyperlink><hyperlink_text></hyperlink_text><hyperlink_text_alt></hyperlink_text_alt></hyperlinks></point></index><type>oral history</type><description></description><rel /><transcript></transcript><transcript_alt></transcript_alt><rights>Resources may be used under the guidelines described by the U.S. Copyright Office in Section 107, Title 17, United States Code (Fair use). Parties interested in production or commercial use of the resources should contact the Russell Library for a fee schedule.</rights><fmt>audio</fmt><usage></usage><userestrict>0</userestrict><xmllocation></xmllocation><xmlfilename></xmlfilename><collection_link>purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL418GAA/findingaid</collection_link><series_link></series_link></record></ROOT>
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Jeff Jordan, March 24, 2016
Creator
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Jeff Jordan
John Cruickshank
Art Cain
Jewel Walker-Harps
Date
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2016-03-24
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audio
oral histories
Type
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sound
Identifier
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RBRL418GAA-012
Coverage
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Griffin, Georgia
OHMS
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Griffin African American Oral History Project
Subject
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Georgia--History, Local
African Americans--History
Georgia--Communities
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The Griffin African American Oral History Project is a collaboration between the Griffin Branch NAACP, the Griffin Campus Library of the University of Georgia, and the Richard B. Russell Library. The seed was planted in the meetings of the Educational Prosperity Initiative which is also chaired by the president of the Griffin Branch NAACP, Jewel Walker-Harps. Collaborators on the project include: Griffin Housing Authority; Spalding County Collaborative; Fairmont Alumni Association; University of Georgia—Athens and Griffin campuses; and the Educational Prosperity Initiative, which is an affiliate of the Spalding County Collaborative and others. Interviewers on the project include: John Cruickshank, librarian at UGA-Griffin Campus Library; Jewel Walker-Harps, President of the Griffin, GA Branch of the NAACP; Art Cain, coordinator of Continuing Education for UGA-Griffin; Be-Atrice Cunningham, project manager for College of Agricultural and Environmental Science for Griffin; and Ellen Bauske, senior public service associate at the Georgia Center for Urban Agriculture in Griffin. Rich Braman was the sound engineer for this project. <br />The Griffin African American Oral History Project intends to document the experiences of people who lived in Fairmont Community in Griffin, Georgia during the civil rights era and through its transformation to the present day.<br /><br />All interviews in this collection have been indexed in OHMS.
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Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Publisher
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Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
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2015-2018
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Oral histories
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RBRL418GAA
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Griffin, Georgia
Oral History
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Griffin, Georgia
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71 minutes
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https://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL418GAA-013/ohms
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5.4
2017-04-25
Interview with Love Maddox, April 25, 2017
RBRL418GAA-013
71 minutes
RBRL418GAA
Griffin African American Oral History Project
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies, University of Georgia
Love Maddox
Jewel Walker-Harps
Be-Atrice Cunningham
Art Cain
John Cruickshank
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Kaltura
audio
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139
Joining the police force
Before we get off into talking ...
Love Maddox talks about his impressions of police as a child growing up in Griffin, Georgia and his decision to become one of the first African American policeman in Griffin. Maddox describes some of the subtle cues that made him feel unwelcome in the police force. Maddox shares how he was not limited in who he could arrest despite contradictory rules around the area.
arrests;Griffin, Georgia;police
632
Difficulties in policing
Well he said, "if you're a police...
Maddox explains how he faced discrimination from both Blacks and whites as an African American policeman during the 1960's. Maddox shares how he was often called racial slurs while on the job by both Blacks and whites.
arrests;discrimination
1082
Discrimination / Career sabotage attempts
I would ask them...
Maddox recalls how ignoring the racial slurs often worked in stopping the name-calling. Maddox shares that there were few Blacks in other positions of public service. Maddox talks about his experience in police academy, and shares some of the methods of sabotage used by others to ruin his career.
discrimination;police academy;racial slurs
1492
Interactions with the Ku Klux Klan
I was laying on the sofa...
Maddox talks about some of the other experiences he had with facing discrimination while on the police force. Maddox relates some of his interactions with the Ku Klux Klan.
fighting;KKK;policing
1866
Interactions with Ku Klux Klan (KKK) / Retaliation by the Black community
Were you on the force when...
Maddox shares his recollection of further interactions with the Ku Klux Klan. Maddox explains how he believes Black community leaders in Griffin actively worked against his presence in the community.
community leaders;Griffin, Georgia;Ku Klux Klan (KKK)
2352
Retaliation by the Black community (cont.)
He had voice enough ...
Maddox continues to describe the influence that some Black leaders in the Griffin community had on the his police work. Maddox relates some of the difficulties and fear he faced as a Black policeman during the 1960's. Maddox shares how he often experienced more trouble from the African American community as opposed to the white community.
community;discrimination;policing
2839
The set-up
I'm still puzzled by who was setting up...
Maddox continues describing the raid attempt which was perpetuated as an attempt to sabotage his career. Maddox shares how the set-up fell through, and how it effected his career and perception of the African American community of Griffin.
set-up;Tom Simpson
3290
Policing in Atlanta
I wanna be chief ...
Maddox recalls how he shared his desire to become chief in Griffin. Maddox shares how he became a policeman in Atlanta. Maddox describes the intense racial climate of his experience as a policeman in Atlanta, which he claims stemmed almost entirely from the Black community.
African American community;Atlanta, Georgia;B.J Jackson;Griffin, Georgia
3761
Becoming a policeman
You were into the police force...
Maddox talks about his police training experience in the early 1960's. Maddox shares that most of his learning took place on the job despite his training in the police academy. Maddox shares why he believes he got the job.
Police Academy;training
Oral history
RBRL418GAA-013_Maddox JEWEL WALKER-HARPS:Good afternoon. I'm Jewel Walker-Harps, President of the Griffin branch NAACP, and this is Griffin African American Oral History Project. We have with us today the first -- one of the first African American policemen in Griffin -- in Georgia, who's going to tell us his story. We have at the table doing our interview... BEATRICE CUNNINGHAM:Beatrice Cunningham. ART CAIN:Art Cain. JOHN CRUICKSHANK:John Cruickshank. LOVE MADDOX:Love Maddox. WALKER-HARPS:And Love Maddox. We're delighted to have Mr. Maddox. We are interested in your story, as you want to tell it. If we do not ask you something, and you feel that it is important to share with us, we want you to be comfortable in sharing it. If we ask you something and you don't remember, because we're talking about quite a few years back, just let us know that you don't remember, or you're not certain, and we'll move on to the next question. Everybody around the table will have an opportunity to answer -- to ask you questions. And we understand that you have sort of a hearing impairment, so if we ask you something and you don't quite understand, just feel free to ask us -- MADDOX:I will. WALKER-HARPS:-- to repeat, and we will be happy to do that. So, with that said, we want to also inform you that the final product that we produce today will go to the University of Georgia in Athens to be processed, will be catalogued, and whatever is necessary to prepare it to go in the Richard B. Russell Library, and any other archival sites that are deemed important at that time. So it's not just a local project, but it's a project for the university system, and one that we hope will last for the duration of time so that your children, your grandchildren, your great-grandchildren will be able to know what life was like for you as a policeman in Griffin, Georgia. Now, we're going to start with our questions. CUNNINGHAM:Sure. And before we get off into talking about your career as a policeman, let's get a sense of what your life was like growing up as a child. Can you tell us a little about where you were born and what life was like as a child? MADDOX:Yes. I was born here in Griffin, Georgia, quite a few years ago, (laughter) and... But as a kid growing up, I didn't like police -- CUNNINGHAM:Okay. MADDOX:-- 'cause I had a lot of bad encounters with them as a child. And... But, you know, as you grow older, you think more clearly, and the job that they were doing was one that was necessary at that time. But at a child, you're looking at it in a different light, and... So -- but I never had no idea I will become a police. (laughter) That was the furthest thing from my mind. WALKER-HARPS:What really changed your mind? How and why did you become a policeman? MADDOX:Well, I got married, and I was working at a job in Atlanta that wasn't paying as much as I would've been getting as a policeman. And I had a brother-in-law -- maybe we'll clear that up now -- I had a brother-in-law that were working for the Police Department at the time, and a word put in to the chief from him. So I was asked to come by, and they questioned me about a few things. And one of the main things they were looking for, had I ever been fired from a job. And the answer to that question, well, yes. I think it kind of surprised them that I would admit to it, but I also know that if you don't they got a way of finding out. So I think that's what changed their mind about hiring me at the time. So they set a date for me to come in and everything, and I start... Believe it or not, I started on a Sunday. I remember that. I started on a Sunday. And I was accepted, let's say, with mixed emotion, because... I don't really know how to put this. Nothing was said to me directly when I got there, but you could tell that you don't -- I don't like to try to read people's mind, either -- that there were some there that didn't appreciate me being there. We'll put it like that. But after a while, everything kinda smoothed itself out, and we all start working together. But I never heard them refer to me as anything other than Love. CAIN:When you joined the police force, when you joined the police force, how many other African Americans were on the force at the time? MADDOX:How many...? CAIN:How many other African Americans were on -- MADDOX:Uh... (pause) I'm gonna be honest with you: I believe it was four, five others. I can't say that's what it was, but I believe it was. I believe it was five others. CAIN:I'm always interested in sort of the culture, when you join an organization, and you made reference just now to maybe not being totally accepted when you got there. Could you tell us a little bit about just how you felt and why you maybe felt that way? MADDOX: Well, you go by... I -- let me see, I don't say... I go by the way people act towards me when I speak to them, anything like that. And some of the response were very cold. I put it -- put it like that. But, like I say, other than that, everything was all right. WALKER-HARPS:In other words, you were not referred to as "boy." MADDOX:Hmm? WALKER-HARPS:You were not referred to as "boy." MADDOX:No, not by my fellow officers, black or white. I was never referred to as "black," or "black boy," or "nigger," either one. I never was referred to that. That came about after I went out in the streets. CUNNINGHAM:So was there a difference in the way the black community versus the white community treated you as a police officer? I mean, did they respect you as a police officer, both communities? MADDOX:Not at first. They really didn't. They really didn't. And, I mean, by the black either. I wasn't really accepted. And, you know, I might as well tell it like it is, but, as I've said, as time passed things moved itself out. I'll put it that way, that we all gelled, like, came together, you know. CAIN:Well, I know, for example, just taking off on Beatrice's question, when there was integration in the Atlanta police force, late '40s, early '50s, African American policemen, for example, could not arrest white citizens. Did you run into any kind of issues like that? MADDOX:Okay, I understand what you're saying, but I'm considered in the top ten for black policemen being hired in Griffin. So I didn't encounter that, you know, I couldn't arrest this person. Because one thing, I got a big mouth, and I asked the chief, who was Chief Blackwell at the time, about that. And he told me -- I got to give him credit: he was a fair man, far as I was concerned. And that's what he told me: he -- excuse the imitation, but I have to do it this way -- he said, "Love?" I said, "Yes, Chief." "You a police?" I said, "Yes." "Don't people out there doin' wrong?" I said, "I guess they're like that." "Well," he said, "if you're police, you arrest 'em all. You arrest anybody." So that's what... I mean, but now I won't speak for the people before me, because I can't prove it. But I didn't have any problem arresting either black or white. WALKER-HARPS:So what you're saying, actually there were others -- there were other African Americans prior to your being hired. You were not actually the first, so you would not have had the original experience. MADDOX:I'm not quite -- WALKER-HARPS:Let me make -- let me -- MADDOX:I'm not quite getting that. WALKER-HARPS:There were others who may have had a more difficult time than you, who perhaps opened the door for you. MADDOX:Right. Yeah, right. WALKER-HARPS:And I ask that because I have heard some of those who were earlier than you say that they were not allowed to arrest whites. They were only allowed to arrest blacks. So by the time you became a policeman, then the condition had softened somewhat, to allow you to do -- or you had a chief who had a heart and wanted to do the right thing. MADDOX:It mattered then, but then, like I said, I didn't have any problem in that line, making arrests, black or white. WALKER-HARPS:Any incidents with whites who were arrested by a black policeman? Were there any incidents, anything happen, or any encounters that you remember as you made your arrest, that...? MADDOX:Oh, now, I wasn't accepted by either one of 'em. (laughter) I wasn't accepted by the black or white when you make an arrest, you know. But I would like to say this: I was more tested physically by the black than I was by the white, you know. They -- the black wanted to have a physical encounter, you know. And the white probably didn't like it. I don't know whether they did or not, but they went along with the arrest, and that -- their children didn't like it, either. That's all. CUNNINGHAM:Can you give us a sense of when you started? MADDOX:Beg your pardon? CUNNINGHAM:In -- when did you start working for the police force? MADDOX:Oh, I started in... What did -- when did I start? Oh... CUNNINGHAM:Just around what decade? MADDOX:Now, I've been retired here since 2001, (laughs) from law enforcement. I don't know. It was in the -- WALKER-HARPS:In the '60s, right? MADDOX:It was in the '60s. CUNNINGHAM:Okay. MADDOX:I -- if I'm not mistaken, it was in the '60s. Yeah, yeah. CUNNINGHAM:Okay. Well, did you notice a difference in even the pay rate? Were you, as a black police officer, paid less than your white counterparts? MADDOX:I'm gonna be honest with you about that: if it was, I didn't know it. CUNNINGHAM:Okay. MADDOX:I didn't know it. But I tell you this: I might be getting ahead of everything, but they had schools that you go to -- CUNNINGHAM:Right. MADDOX:-- and when you finished that course, your rate -- your pay would raise $50 -- CUNNINGHAM:Okay. MADDOX:-- a month. And I went the full school. So I got $200 more added to my salary, you know. But other than my pay, different from his pay, I don't -- that I didn't -- I never would've known that. CUNNINGHAM:Okay. WALKER-HARPS:Were there negative remarks made to you? Were there negative remarks, ugly things said to you, by either whites or blacks? MADDOX:Negative remarks? WALKER-HARPS:Mm-hmm. MADDOX:Oh, yeah, I got a lot of those. Yeah. And that's where... That's where the "nigger" came in. I was referred to as "nigger" by a white arrest (unintelligible). And, well, I learned to deal with that from my mother and father. You know, you're not one, so why worry about it, you know, though? But I did run into that with them, but that's not with all of 'em. I never judged one person by everybody. You know, each one get its own blame, you know. That's the way it was. CRUICKSHANK:So did you just completely ignore the remarks, or how did you handle it? MADDOX:Beg your pardon? CRUICKSHANK:Did you completely ignore the name-calling, or how did you handle it? MADDOX:I'm not quite clear -- WALKER-HARPS:How did you handle the name-calling? What did you do in response when you were called a name that was not your name? MADDOX:Oh, oh, what -- WALKER-HARPS:How did you handle it? MADDOX:-- how I reacted? CRUICKSHANK:Mm-hmm. MADDOX:Oh, I... (laughs) I did like it never was said and went on with the arrest, you know. You know... CUNNINGHAM:Well, you just mentioned that you learned from your parents how to deal with being called a name that doesn't match -- MADDOX:Yeah. CUNNINGHAM:-- who you are. MADDOX:Yeah. CUNNINGHAM:Tell us more about your parents, and your siblings, if you have any. MADDOX:Well, they deceased now -- CUNNINGHAM:Okay. MADDOX:-- but I had some parents that -- they believe in the switch. (laughter) If you know what I mean, you know. And when I say believe in the switch, I mean three of 'em, platted. And they would tell us, tell all of us -- 'cause I had a brother; he was stone crazy, you know, I mean, just to put it honestly, 'cause he didn't care what you called him; he was ready to do it, you know. But they told us that names... If they didn't call you Love, they didn't call your name, you know. So I took that to the job with me, you know, and -- 'cause I have had accidents to happen, people witness, and that's all that was said, you know, "That nigger this," "That he -- that nigger that," you know. And I will ask them, "Let's me go and talk to this person and see what they have to say," you know, and he -- the guy -- the -- well, I won't say guy, but the fella, he noticed that I wasn't responding to what he was saying, so would you believe in a few minutes he stopped? CUNNINGHAM:Hmm. MADDOX:And he started saying "that guy," you know. It's the way they handle things, and people come into it, you know. WALKER-HARPS:Was it difficult to get black policemen hired, even though you were not, maybe, the first, but you were in that bracket of first man hired? MADDOX:Yeah -- WALKER-HARPS:Did they volunteer to hire you, or did they hire you as a result of community pressure? MADDOX:They volunteer to call you what? WALKER-HARPS:Did they volunteer to hire blacks as policemen, or were they pressured into doing it? MADDOX:I really can't say. I can't say, and I don't like to say things that I can't prove, you know. And I don't know whether they were pressured into doing it or what, that... I know they had one white police -- I don't know whether you remember -- called Bradley Davis. Old-timer. And he used to say he had been trying to get 'em to hire blacks. I don't know how true that was or not, but that's what he was -- that's what he was saying. So I don't -- I can't say whether they were pressured into doing it or they just thought it was time to do it. WALKER-HARPS: Were there any other black public officials at that time that you know about? MADDOX:Where there what? WALKER-HARPS:Where there any other black public officials that you knew about? There weren't any black firemen or black...? I know there were black teachers, but were there blacks in any other public service areas that you knew about? MADDOX:No. No, I know the ranking part in there was -- were low, you know. I mean, we wasn't ranking as much as some, that we were a little bit more sharper were -- than they were. And -- but other than that, I don't know. WALKER-HARPS:When you say "sharp," what do you mean? MADDOX: Well, I never did an accident report before, but the thing about it: I could read. You know, that made a difference. And doing that, I was able to make my first rec report out by myself, and (unintelligible), 'cause I was real proud of it, you know, with the drawing and everything. And so the fella -- I'm not gonna say what this fella wore, whether they're black or white, but I'm gonna say that my partner at the time, he said, "I've been trying that for a long time, you know." And I said, "What?" He said, "Make out a rec report?" I said, "Yeah." He said -- I said, "Nothing to it." I said, "You see what going on, then put it down," you know. "And each person got to tell what happened. If you number one, that mean you at fault. You number two, you the one got hurt, you know. As simple as that." WALKER-HARPS:Did you have to take a test to get the job? MADDOX:No, I didn't. I didn't. But I had to go to the police academy. I did. I had to go to the police academy. That was... That was, I think, about three months after I had been in there, and we had to go to that. And you had to pass the police academy, because when you came back you would've been fired. WALKER-HARPS:Were there accusations made against you that were false that could've gotten you into trouble while you were a policeman? Did you have people lying on you, so to speak, so that had some bearing on your job -- MADDOX:Lying? WALKER-HARPS:Yes. MADDOX:Oh, yeah, I had plenty of those. I had plenty of those. Tell you about... I know -- my partner and I, we were patrolling one afternoon, and so we were getting off something like 3:30. We went in, and they got all these other police that ran out to the car and said, "Y'all under arrest." I said, "What?" You know, I'm thinking it's a joke. And the guy said, "This is no joke." Said, "You under arrest." I said, "Somebody gonna have to tell me something." You know, so one of 'em finally said, "We just got a report that you and your partner riding down the street drinking beer." This is true. I said, "Drinking beer?" So just so happened we didn't throw the cans away. We were drinking, but we didn't throw the cans away. So I took out my Pepsi-Cola can, and the other guy took out his Pepsi-Cola can. I said, "This what they call beer." I said, "Well, you -- we're under arrest." Now, people do that. They do that. I had... I hope I'm not jumping the gun on you, but I even had a lady to call my house and tell my wife I was with her. And I was laying on the sofa. And (laughs) I love my wife to today. She played it cool. She didn't -- she never said I was there. And she just pumped that lady, got all the (laughter) information out of her she wanted to. But I just say that to show you, people will do things to try to hurt you, you know. I've been -- I also been hurt physically. I have. So that -- it will happen. It will happen. WALKER-HARPS:Was that in relation to your job, or was it something else? MADDOX:Beg...? WALKER-HARPS:Your being hurt physically. MADDOX:This were pertaining to the job. WALKER-HARPS:Really? MADDOX:Yeah. WALKER-HARPS:Would you tell us about it? As much as you can remember. MADDOX:You got a 82-year-old man, (laughter) reaching way back. But anyway, we... I had a partner, and I'm gonna call this fella's name, because him and I, we rode together more than any... His name was... Uh-oh, Gile. And he loved to fight. And I didn't. I will fight, but I didn't love to fight. But anyway, we got into a physical altercation one night. I got bounced around a little bit, and we just laughed about it, but that's what I was saying about -- you can get physically hurt out there, and I had a shotgun drawn on me, and it was loaded. I mean, you run into some things out there you wouldn't believe, you really wouldn't believe that people would do, and then they complain about it. They complain about it. And a fella cut a lady's throat, called me to come get him. Now, that's true. He call me to arrest him. But he act as though he didn't do anything. And I'm -- the lady at the hospital with her neck open. No. So, as I said, people, they do a lot of things out there, and they blame the police for it. No. And all police is, it would get to it, is not bad. They're not bad. Some try to help you, and people won't let them help you, so... WALKER-HARPS:Were you fortunate enough to ever run into the Ku Klux Klan? MADDOX:The what? WALKER-HARPS:Were you fortunate enough to ever run into or have an encounter with the Klan? With the KKK? MADDOX:(laughs) Oh, yeah, but when they had that rai-- they had that mass... What they... Oh, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. When they had that march in Griffin that time -- I don't know if you remember that or not -- but anyway, I mean, everybody congregated -- that's what it seemed to me -- in Griffin, right there at the old courthouse, you know. And they -- and you said the KKK? (laughs) They were there also. But after all the blacks start coming in, they start moving out, moving out. But, I mean, directly being -- well, I don't know how you put this -- confronted, or have anything with them? I have to say no. I have to say no. 'Cause most times they -- their motto I heard one say, "If you don't bother me, we don't bother you." Now, I don't know how true that is or not, but I did hear that, you know. "If you don't do anything, I won't bother you, but if you do, I will." You know, I -- that's one thing about it. My motto with this: if I asked you to do something, and you didn't do it, I'm gonna arrest you. I'm gonna arrest you through going to jail or giving you a citation, but you're gonna get one of the two. Because if I thought enough to ask you to do it, and not tell you to do it, and you respond negative, you got to go. You have to go. WALKER-HARPS:Were you on the force when the KKK burned the crosses in front of the head's house or business? MADDOX:Uh... (pause) I remember that, but... Let me say this: certain things happened. We were put on other details. You see what -- you understand what I'm saying? WALKER-HARPS:Yes, yes. MADDOX:And so that's the only way I can put that, Ms. Harps. WALKER-HARPS:Okay. So you would not have been directly involved, and it would have been arranged that way so that you would not have had an encounter with them. MADDOX:No, no. WALKER-HARPS: That's interesting. CAIN:You remember about what year, what years those were, where they had that march that you just referred to? MADDOX:You have to pick it up a little. CAIN:I'm sorry. You remember about what year it was, or what years it was, when that march happened, and you had whatever encounters with the Ku Klux Klan that you had? MADDOX:It was in the... I believe it was in the -- I believe it was in the '60s, beginning of the '70s. I'm not for sure. I'm not for sure. WALKER-HARPS:Were there community organizations that were active during the time that the first black policemen were on the force? Was that during the era of Reverend Socksure, or was it Gary Reid, or who were the people out front in the community leading the efforts to get equality for black people at that time? Who were some of those persons? MADDOX:(pause) Read me that again. WALKER-HARPS:Who were some of the leaders, community leaders, during the time that you were on the police force? Who were some of the persons who were behind the scenes, perhaps in the churches or in the community, that were out there trying to make things happen? MADDOX:For -- WALKER-HARPS:Were there -- did you have at that time an NAACP? MADDOX:Are you saying for the police, or -- WALKER-HARPS:No, in general. Just in general. MADDOX:In general? CUNNINGHAM:Mm-hmm. MADDOX: (pause) I -- WALKER-HARPS:You don't know. MADDOX:I don't know. WALKER-HARPS:You don't know. MADDOX:No, no. WALKER-HARPS:So it sounds like you had a pretty good life. (laughter) MADDOX:No -- WALKER-HARPS:A pretty free, a pretty f-- MADDOX:-- no, no. Well, be honest with you, you know I was only there five years, in Griffin, and my other 30 years was in Atlanta, with the postal inspector -- WALKER-HARPS:Oh, okay. MADDOX:-- service. And I worked with them. So what happened... (laughs) What happened is it happened in that short span of time, but I felt, though, while in Griffin, the black leaders, as you call 'em, they wasn't behind us. WALKER-HARPS:Really? MADDOX:That's right, and if they was here today, I'd say the same thing. I'll tell you why I'm saying it. WALKER-HARPS:Okay. MADDOX:Because I made an arrest on a kid for speeding, and the kid's father would've been a higher-up in Griffin. And this -- the black leaders set me up. WALKER-HARPS:Really? MADDOX:I'm gonna tell you what I know. Tell you what I know. But the thing about it, it didn't work out like they thought it was gonna work, 'cause what it was, it was supposed to bring the black community against me. But there were some that didn't. And something happened -- I'll tell you it was at the VFW (inaudible) -- I never will forget that, because that hurt me to my heart. I... What they did, they raided the VFW. WALKER-HARPS:Okay. MADDOX:Now, I didn't know anything about it, but I noticed where they told me to stay that particular night, they wouldn't let no other police communicate with me. And I thought it was strange, you know. I'm right here in town. I can't go from this corner to that corner. That's true. And after a while a car pulled up and said, "Get in." So you don't question. You got a police car, they say, "Get in," you get in. You know, you don't question it. And they headed straight for the VFW. And I asked, I said, "What's going on." And the guy told me, just like they say, "You will find out in a few minutes." Sure did. But they went in there. They took out, or taken out, all the alcohol beverages and everything, taken it away. And I notice the so-called black leaders were behind this, 'cause, you know, most of 'em was head of the VFW. And so they set it up through him. But the thing about it, in three or four days, all this alcohol stuff went back to the VFW. And one of the officers took it on themself to tell me what went down. He said, "This was supposed to bring the community against you." I said, "For what?" And then he told me about that arrest. WALKER-HARPS:That was -- in other words, that was retaliation against you having had the nerve to arrest somebody who was considered to be of high standing in the community? MADDOX:Say what now? WALKER-HARPS:Was that -- do you feel that that was a way of getting back at you for having arrested somebody who was considered to be important in the community? MADDOX:I don't feel; I know. WALKER-HARPS:Okay. MADDOX:That's what... 'Cause after that arrest, things started changing. WALKER-HARPS:Okay. MADDOX:This person had... He had voice enough to tell people of the police department what to do. And he was not the commissioner. WALKER-HARPS:Okay. MADDOX:You know. And -- CAIN:Can you... Can you identify, or can you say who that was? Can you say who that was? Can you identify? WALKER-HARPS:Do you remember who it was? MADDOX:Yeah, I know. I know who it was. (laughter) Yeah. You know, you don't forget people who do you wrong. At least, I don't. And that was Goldstein. I don't know whether you know Goldstein. His son had a habit of driving through town, 50 or 60 miles an hour, and, you know, that is too fast for anybody. And -- but at the time I arrested him, I didn't even know whose son he was. I didn't know, until he told me. And he told me just like this. He said, "Give me the ticket. My daddy will deal with you." So I went to his daddy and told him I gave him a ticket. WALKER-HARPS:You had a lot of nerve, didn't you? MADDOX:Huh? WALKER-HARPS:You had a lot of nerve. MADDOX:No, I didn't have a lot... It's not so much I had nerve; I just -- I had to be threatened. You know, if we're gonna do something, let's do it. You don't have to threaten me. And that's what I feel, though: the kid threatened me, so I went to see did the father stand behind it. That's basically why I went. You know, it wasn't that I was showing any kind of other -- any kind of nothing, other than that. And he was standing behind his son. So... But then it worked out. Then it worked out. CAIN:I'm not quite clear how they were gonna set you up at the VFW. I think it was a setup in some kind of way, and they got you in the car; they took you to the VFW. What were they trying to do to set you up there? MADDOX:That was it. That was it. The raid on the VFW was supposed to have been my idea. WALKER-HARPS:Oh, okay. MADDOX:To raid it. CAIN:Okay. WALKER-HARPS:But it was not. It was the Goldsteins' idea. MADDOX:That's who it was. WALKER-HARPS:And Goldstein was white, and, if I remember correctly, had a lot of dealings in the black community. MADDOX:Yeah, yeah. I -- if I may, I'll tell you something else about people, also. I have had people -- now this -- to me, this sounds... I guess I -- can I say stupid? It sounds stupid, that you see somebody, like, in the morning. Say I see you, and not knowing you, but I speak. That evening, you run a stop sign, and I see you, I'll stop you. You look at me and said, "I spoke to you this morning." (laughter) (pause) Now, you see where I'm coming from? That they think because you speak to them that they're immune from whatever you got to do. But I'll speak to anybody. I'll speak with anybody. And they want to give you things. They want to give you things. And if you said something to 'em later, "I gave you such-and-such a thing," they're gonna throw that up in your face, you know. So what I do, I don't accept it. I don't accept it. WALKER-HARPS:Did you find that more common with black folk than white folk, or about the same? MADDOX:With both. WALKER-HARPS:With both. MADDOX:With both. With both. CUNNINGHAM:Well, being a policeman is a dangerous occupation, period, but did you find that you felt more endangered just because you were black, and then you were a policeman during the '60s, at the height of the Civil Rights Movement? MADDOX:Well, I did, I did. I felt like it. I really did. And tell you about an incident that happened, other than the one I was telling you about earlier, that we had another encounter, me and this officer who liked to fight, and he give me more trouble than enough. And I came home. My shirt was bloody, and, I mean, I was full of blood. My wife looked at me and said, "What happened to you?" And I thought maybe she could've responded a little better than that, (laughter) so I didn't say anything to her, period. I just went in there, washed off, put another shirt on, went back out in the car, went on back to work. But they -- like I said, they do try to hurt you. They try to hurt you. And they will kill you, too. And I don't want nobody think they won't. People are not afraid of police like they used to. They're not afraid of 'em, you know. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -- WALKER-HARPS:So you had as much trouble with blacks as you had with whites. MADDOX:I had more trouble. You know, to just tell it -- be frank with you, I had more trouble. WALKER-HARPS:Because they expected more from you. MADDOX:Beg pardon? WALKER-HARPS:Was it because they expected more from you? MADDOX:Well, they expect to do things, and you do nothing. You see, that's what they was expecting. And that wasn't me. That wasn't me, you know. WALKER-HARPS:Did you not -- was the black community aware of the situation with Mr. Goldstein? And if they were, did they not stand behind you in saying that what you did was the right thing to do? Or -- MADDOX:No -- WALKER-HARPS:-- they were silent about...? MADDOX:Oh, I don't think they did. I really don't think they did. You know, all this stuff happened almost at midnight. WALKER-HARPS:Okay. MADDOX:Sure did. I was about ready to get off. And that's when I know something was wrong, you know. That they come take you off the post, put you in a car, and don't even tell you where you're going. WALKER-HARPS:So I'm with Art: I'm still puzzled by who was setting up -- who was actually doing the setup. MADDOX:Doing what? WALKER-HARPS:I'm a little puzzled in terms of who was actually doing the setup. The policemen were working with the Goldsteins. MADDOX:I'm trying to fig-- I'm trying to understand what you're saying. WALKER-HARPS:I guess I'm trying to figure out who actually... The retaliation was from the Goldsteins, but did the people who were at the VFW club know about the incident with the young man? MADDOX:Okay, okay. I might've didn't explain that clear, although I said he spoke, police listened. But he didn't have anything... Or, forget about it. He didn't have anything to do with the person who was notified. He didn't notify him. He was notified through the Police Department, this person was, that was in charge of the VFW. WALKER-HARPS:Oh, okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. So you had policemen working with people out there in the community -- MADDOX:No, this was one of your top citizens. WALKER-HARPS:Okay, yes, yes. Yes, you -- I've heard that name a lot. I've heard that name a lot. MADDOX:What? WALKER-HARPS:I have heard the name a lot, in -- MADDOX:You have? WALKER-HARPS:Yes. MADDOX:What? Which one? Goldstein, or -- WALKER-HARPS:Yes, yes. MADDOX:Yeah. But, see, the person who was... I'm sorry, but I won't call that name. I -- let me tell you why I won't: because this person still has living relatives, and him and I real good friends. WALKER-HARPS:Okay. Okay. Well, anybody who happens to read this, and who has any inkling of the history during that time, knows who the people were at the VFW during that period of time -- MADDOX:I knew everybody who was involved. I know everybody who was involved in it. It doesn't take long. It doesn't take long. 'Cause people talk. People talk, you know. This one go home and he tell his wife something. This one go home and tell his something, and she go talk. She go say, "Do you know such-and-such?" My wife even said -- let me tell you what she said to me. She say, "So you have to go over there to the VFW and take their liquor?" Sure did. WALKER-HARPS:So you were falsely accused. MADDOX:I just looked at 'em and said, "You just don't understand." Yeah. Here I am, I'm crying, 'cause I'm hurt. Not from what she said, but what was happening to me, and I couldn't do anything about it. WALKER-HARPS:And nobody else stepped up to the plate to do anything about it. MADDOX:And I was looking for not sympathy from her, but some kind of understanding, you know. If you don't understand what I'm going through, just don't do nothing. Don't say nothing. Because she's running the wrong direction. WALKER-HARPS:I would've expected help from the community. Did you not expect help from the community? MADDOX:Did I expect...? WALKER-HARPS:Did you expect the community to help you? Did you expect anybody in the community to understand and to come to your defense? MADDOX:No, I didn't. WALKER-HARPS:Okay. MADDOX:I didn't. I've been carrying this -- you know, you hear people say "baggage," don't carry the baggage? And I've been carrying this for years. And this the first time I said anything about it. WALKER-HARPS:Okay. MADDOX:I never said anything about it. CAIN:How did it ultimately resolve itself? How did it turn -- how did you get out of some of that trap? MADDOX:Well, it didn't work out like they thought, because they were looking for me to... They were looking for the community to smother me, and I don't mean with love. WALKER-HARPS:Okay. MADDOX:But it didn't happen that way. WALKER-HARPS:Okay. MADDOX:Because, like I'm telling you, I told them. But I use other terms. I curse sometimes. And that's what I did. I'm gonna be honest with you, you know. I told him to get out of my you-know-what face, and I don't want to hear nothing about it. And they thought that I would be fired. That's basically what it was. They thought I would be fired, but it didn't work out that way. And you probably heard me earlier talk about the chief? WALKER-HARPS:Yes. MADDOX:Chief Blackwell? WALKER-HARPS:Yes. MADDOX:Now, others had words not too... I don't know how you put it, but let me put it... My words for him were this: he was a man. Regardless of how he felt about me, or any other black, to me, he was a man. And he told me -- he called us all in his office, all the black officers within his office, and he talked to us, and he asked each one of us what we like to do. And, me, told him, "I want to be chief." The meeting was over. WALKER-HARPS: Because of your answer? Because you wanted to be chief? MADDOX:I don't know. I don't know to this day why, but that's what I said. If you ask me what I want to be, I want to be the chief. That's the (unintelligible), you know. (laughs) And after that, he'd say the meeting was over. WALKER-HARPS:(pause) Well... Is there anything else about your career, either as a policeman or anything else significant in the community, that you would like to share with us? MADDOX:I could say one thing about being a policeman here in Griffin: it helped me get the job in Atlanta. It did. It helped me get the job in Atlanta, 'cause that job working -- at the time, the Postal Service was organizing a police force, and so the postmaster, he'd taken a liking to me for some reason, and he told his wife to tell me to come down there and talk with him. And believe me, I hate it to this day: I can't remember his name. But what he had -- what he did, he asked me would I like to leave. I told him yeah. And he said, "Give me three days and I'll get back with you." So in three days he did. He said, "Somebody will be contacting you in about a week." In about a week, a postal inspector came down and interviewed me. And two weeks after that, I was hired to that job in Atlanta, which I stayed for 30 years, and retired. WALKER-HARPS:Did you find the racial climate in Atlanta to be different from what it was here? MADDOX:(laughs) I... WALKER-HARPS:Were you treated differently from what you were treated in Griffin? MADDOX:Oh, I tell you the truth, I wanted to come back to Griffin. (laughter) WALKER-HARPS:It was worse? MADDOX:That's how bad it was when I first got there. I wanted to -- I'm serious! I wanted to come back to Griffin. WALKER-HARPS:How could it have been worse? MADDOX: It was worse, believe me. And all this... (laughs) And all this is coming from black. WALKER-HARPS:Tell me a little bit more. I'm interested in that. How -- why would you say it's all coming from blacks? What -- MADDOX:Because they the ones that was in charge. WALKER-HARPS:Okay. MADDOX:And they didn't want anyone else coming in. But, see, they didn't have any control over that, because you're being interviewed by inspectors. Are you familiar with inspectors, in the Postal Service? WALKER-HARPS:Not really, but -- CUNNINGHAM:I'm not. MADDOX:Okay. Inspectors in the Postal Service is something like the FBI, in -- out here. WALKER-HARPS:Okay. MADDOX:Out here. And what they do, we, as postal police, we work with them, you know. We work with them. So that's how they come about. WALKER-HARPS:Okay. MADDOX:Mm-hmm. WALKER-HARPS:Okay. MADDOX:So the people that I had problems with didn't have any pull to do anything. And what -- I'm gonna tell you basically what it was all about, because I came from the police force. So I came in with a little bit more knowledge than they had. WALKER-HARPS:Oh, okay. MADDOX:And that's what they didn't like. WALKER-HARPS:Oh, okay. MADDOX:It was more like an image thing. WALKER-HARPS:Okay. Okay. I -- now I understand. Okay. All right. MADDOX:But you're not gonna use that. (laughter) WALKER-HARPS:No, but we're gonna close, unless there's something else that somebody wants to ask or say or... CAIN:Jonathan? CRUICKSHANK: I wonder if -- have you been watching the news lately, watching about what the police are doing these days? And how do you feel about it? Are they doing a good job? The police nowadays in Atlanta. Do you keep track of what they're doing? MADDOX:To my police now? CRUICKSHANK:Yeah, the police now, today. How do you feel about what they're doing to the -- having more problems now than ever, or...? MADDOX:Well, I have mixed emotions about that, because I think some of the things they're doing they don't have to do, you know. My... My outlook on when I was police is that you help people. You know, you help people first, and then you arrest 'em. And... But other than the shooting going on, I don't... I don't go -- 'cause that's not justified. It's not justified. WALKER-HARPS:We do need, for the record, though, to know who were the other blacks on the police force when you were there. Who were the other African Americans who were policemen at the time that you were? MADDOX:That they what now? WALKER-HARPS:Who were some of the other black policemen who worked that time that you worked in Griffin? MADDOX:Oh, who were they? WALKER-HARPS:Yes. MADDOX:Now, you had... You had Chester Milmore. WALKER-HARPS:Okay. MADDOX:And you had -- WALKER-HARPS:B.J.? MADDOX:-- Pop Ellis. You had B.J. Jackson. Uh... (pause) Who I call? WALKER-HARPS:I think you may have called 'em all. You called B.J. Jackson -- MADDOX:Yeah, B.J. WALKER-HARPS:-- Chester Milner -- MADDOX:Chester, Pop -- WALKER-HARPS:Pop Ellis. MADDOX:Oh, Marvin -- WALKER-HARPS:Marvin Barrow. MADDOX:-- Marvin Barrow. WALKER-HARPS:I believe Marvin was one of the very, very first. MADDOX:Yeah, they were the first. WALKER-HARPS:But he's deceased now. Okay. MADDOX:Yeah, mm-hmm. And -- WALKER-HARPS:He's deceased. CAIN:I guess I... Oh, I'm sorry. I guess I do have one other question, just curious about. I'm sorry. I guess I do have one other question -- MADDOX:Go ahead. CAIN:-- that I'm curious about. You went into the police force... I'm just curious about your training, because at some point you needed to know how to handle a gun. I don't know if you had military background. You know, just tell us a little bit about the training that got you from a citizen with no law enforcement background to someone who was ready to go and work out in the community as a policeman. MADDOX:(pause) I'm trying... Trying to formulate that, but I'm not quite getting it. CAIN:Okay. When you joined the police force in the early '60s, what was your preparation? What -- how did you -- how did you get to the point where when you went to the job you were comfortable doing your job? MADDOX:Oh, okay. CAIN:What did they teach you? How did you learn about handling firearms and those kinds of things? MADDOX:I got you. I was a raw rookie. (laughter) I was just a raw rookie. Anything I was confronted, I wouldn't have had any knowledge of how to handle it, because I was put with another police officer. And that's it. That was the training. That, and I don't know whose idea it was to come up with going to the academy, but that's the best thing could've happened. That's the best thing could've happened, going to the police academy, because they teach you so much, you know. 'Cause during the raw time, I could've shot somebody. You know, you... You know, things like that. You -- and you think it justified. You might've been wrong in doing it, you know. But I -- did I answer the question? CAIN:Yeah, yeah, you said it was -- you kinda -- on-the-job training. You got there, and (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -- MADDOX:Yeah, but I -- really and truly, I couldn't even call that on-the-job training. I really couldn't. You call -- you in a car and then, and we go do this, we go do that, you know. CAIN:Was that common? MADDOX:Hmm? CAIN:Was that common for new recruits coming in? MADDOX:I don't know was it common or not, you know, because, like I said, after that they sent us to a police academy, with somebody who could teach us the right way to do things, you know. And getting into it, I've been to two academies. I've been to the police academy, and I went to the federal government academy in Bethesda, Maryland. So I got academied out. CAIN:I hear you. (laughter) WALKER-HARPS:If you had no -- if you had -- if you did not have to have any special training, or any special skills, or any special -- to meet any special requirements, then it looks like they could've gotten anybody. So why did they get you guys, who were picked, unless there was somebody behind the scenes saying that these are good men, and they would accomplish what we want to accomplish? I don't understand what you actually brought to the table, except being a good person. And that's not really a question; that's just my feeling about your answer to the situation. MADDOX:When you first come on? WALKER-HARPS:Pardon? MADDOX: When you first? WALKER-HARPS:Yeah, I mean, it could've been me or anybody, if you did not have to have any special qualification. MADDOX:Oh, okay, okay, I understand what you're saying now. Because a lot of those are police that were on there. They didn't have any. They didn't have -- they didn't have any training, proper training. Everything for what you thought. WALKER-HARPS:Okay. MADDOX:You know, they didn't have any proper training. And, see, that's what I was saying: a lot of things could happen, and you thinking it's right, but it's not. WALKER-HARPS:And you guys probably had much more of a gift, in terms of -- especially since you were able to read and write -- than some of those who were already there. MADDOX:Yeah, in a sense, I believe. I think we were a little bit more prepared for it, because all us was out of school. WALKER-HARPS:Okay. MADDOX:We finished school -- WALKER-HARPS:Okay. MADDOX:-- you know. And (inaudible) saying it like that, because I know -- I rode with two different fellas, and they told me they only got for such-and-such a grade, and then they hired 'em at the police force, you know. So that was that. WALKER-HARPS:Yeah. So you were the best... It's almost like it was with going to school, when teachers were transferred: the best of the best. And that often placed you above those who were already there. Okay. If there are no other questions, then we're going to do our wrap-up. We certainly appreciate you, Mr. Maddox. We really -- you've done a good job for us, and we have some idea as to what life was like for you, and others who were among the first policemen. And, again -- MADDOX:And one thing I'd like to put on the end there. You know, I think everybody, regardless of what job you have, you know, be your own person. Do your own thinking. And that make things look much better. WALKER-HARPS:Okay. That helped you when you were confronted with the expectations of doing favors and whatever for persons, I'm sure. MADDOX:Oh, yeah, that... That... (laughter) I mean, we were talking a while ago that I had so many girlfriends, it was pitiful. (laughter) Now, I want you to understand what I'm saying. And I don't know any of 'em. CUNNINGHAM:Right. MADDOX:Don't... WALKER-HARPS:And many of 'em probably were just a picture of a situations and a compromising situation -- MADDOX:All you had to do was talk to a lady. They're your girlfriend. WALKER-HARPS:Well... (laughter) All right. Again, thank you. Thank you for sharing with us. MADDOX:Okay. CUNNINGHAM:Thank you, Mr. Maddox. CAIN:I say thank you -- CRUICKSHANK:Thank you. CAIN:-- very much. WALKER-HARPS:And you will hear from us later. END OF AUDIO FILE
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purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL418GAA/findingaid
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Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
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Interview with Love Maddox, April 25, 2017
Subject
The topic of the resource
African American police
Discrimination
Race relations
Description
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Love Maddox was born in Griffin, Georgia and served as one of the first African American policemen during the integration of the Griffin community police force. Throughout his career, Maddox also served in the city of Atlanta. In this interview, Maddox talks about the opposition he faced in his work as a Black officer in Griffin, his interactions with the Ku Klux Klan, and some of his interactions with the African American community.
Creator
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Love Maddox
Jewel Walker-Harps
Be-Atrice Cunningham
Art Cain
John Cruickshank
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2017-04-25
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audio
oral histories
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sound
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RBRL418GAA-013
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Griffin, Georgia
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Griffin African American Oral History Project
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Georgia--History, Local
African Americans--History
Georgia--Communities
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The Griffin African American Oral History Project is a collaboration between the Griffin Branch NAACP, the Griffin Campus Library of the University of Georgia, and the Richard B. Russell Library. The seed was planted in the meetings of the Educational Prosperity Initiative which is also chaired by the president of the Griffin Branch NAACP, Jewel Walker-Harps. Collaborators on the project include: Griffin Housing Authority; Spalding County Collaborative; Fairmont Alumni Association; University of Georgia—Athens and Griffin campuses; and the Educational Prosperity Initiative, which is an affiliate of the Spalding County Collaborative and others. Interviewers on the project include: John Cruickshank, librarian at UGA-Griffin Campus Library; Jewel Walker-Harps, President of the Griffin, GA Branch of the NAACP; Art Cain, coordinator of Continuing Education for UGA-Griffin; Be-Atrice Cunningham, project manager for College of Agricultural and Environmental Science for Griffin; and Ellen Bauske, senior public service associate at the Georgia Center for Urban Agriculture in Griffin. Rich Braman was the sound engineer for this project. <br />The Griffin African American Oral History Project intends to document the experiences of people who lived in Fairmont Community in Griffin, Georgia during the civil rights era and through its transformation to the present day.<br /><br />All interviews in this collection have been indexed in OHMS.
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Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
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Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
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2015-2018
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RBRL418GAA
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Griffin, Georgia
Oral History
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OHMS Object Text
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5.4
Interview with Curtis Jones, June 27, 2017
RBRL418GAA-016
RBRL418GAA
Griffin African American Oral History Project
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies, University of Georgia
Curtis Jones
Art Cain
Jewel Walker-Harps
Ellen Bauske
Rich Braman
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Kaltura
audio
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47
Mandatory and voluntary integration
I am Curtis Jones, superintendent of the Bibb County School System...
Jones talks about how his parents' careers affected his upbringing. Jones recalls his experience in being one of the first black students to integrate into Sacred Heart Elementary. Jones relates his transition to Junior High School and talks about some of the friends he had growing up. Jones details the process of mandatory integration and his first days attending the newly integrated Griffin High School.
Bibb County Public School District;Griffin High School;mandatory integration;Sacred Heart Elementary School;Spaulding Junior High School
511
Griffin High School experience
So I will tell you what my thoughts are...
Jones describes the differences between voluntary and mandatory integration, and his experience with both. Jones recalls how his mother helped him with the transition to attending a white school. Jones mentions how his experience at Griffin High School had an impact on his future career. Jones talks about his decision to run for president of the student body at his school, and how he built a following among the students for his campaign.
Fairmount High School;Griffin High School;Griffin-Spaulding County;mandatory integration;Sacred Heart Elementary;Virginia Ball;voluntary integration
957
Football and the Army
Athletics did that, and when...
Jones talks about how his experience on Griffin High School's football team assisted him in gathering support for his student presidential campaign and also influenced his decision to go into the Army. Jones recalls how he came to attend West Point Military Academy. Jones mentions his friends in high school and how they impacted his high school experience.
Air Force;Griffin High School;military;United States Military Academy West Point
1329
Integrating Griffin High School / Returning to Griffin
Now, I'll tell you when there was competition...
Jones recalls how the consolidation of the Griffin and Fairmount High School football teams spurred competition, as players from the historically black and white schools initially viewed each other as rivals. Jones talks about returning to Griffin, Georgia after graduating from West Point Military Academy and how he came to lead the ROTC branch at Griffin High School. Jones mentions how he became the first black principle of Griffin High.
competition;Fairmount High School;Griffin High School;integration;Reserve Officers' Training Corps (ROTC)
1772
Becoming the Superintendent of the Griffin School System
So when I joined the staff in '97...
Jones relates how he rose from the position of ROTC leader to the position of principal of Griffin High School in 2005 to finally the position of Griffin Spalding Superintendent. Jones shares how he was received by the white staff at Griffin High School. Jones adds how his experience attending Griffin High School eased his experience of transitioning into the role as principal.
Griffin High School;Walter Pyron;William Walker
2169
Administration issues
And the principal who was going...
Jones talks about how opening Spalding High School proved to be a contentious subject for the employees of Griffin High School. Jones relates an experience he had with an angry mother who felt threatened by the majority African American administration of Griffin High School. Jones mentions how he dealt with a problem among staff concerning dress code.
Griffin High School;Spalding High School;Todd McGee;Walter Pyron
2601
Experience in the Army / Integration and merging
So, in the military, I was an...
Jones talks about his twenty year career in the military. Jones explains the process of merging the staff of Fairmount and Griffin High School. Jones emphasizes how creating separate schools for grades 6-8 assisted with the distribution of staff after mandatory integration. Jones shares how this integration method was also applied for the sports teams of Griffin High School.
Albany State, Georgia;Fairmount High School;Fort Benning, Georgia;Fort Leavenworth;Germany;Griffin High School
3080
Family and career experiences
Mom and Dad came from Texas...
Jones talks about his upbringing and recalls his experiences visiting his grandparents. Jones talks about his family's history and his father's career in the army. Jones shares how his parents upheld their beliefs in the Civil Rights movement in their decision to allow him to integrate to Spalding Middle School. Jones relates some of the decisions he had to make as superintendent of the Griffin school system.
Kiwanis Club of Griffin;Sacred Heart Elementary School;Texas;Trinity CME Church;University of Georgia
3569
Concluding thoughts
Here's a story about Dr. Bradley...
Jones recalls some of the interactions he had with Dr. Bradley, while trying to become the principal of Griffin High School. Jones shares how, despite his lack of formal education in the way of administration, he managed to make improvements in the Griffin school system.
Dr. Bradley;education;Griffin, Georgia
Oral history
rbrl418gaa-016_jones ART CAIN:Okay, it is June 27th, about two o'clock, in 2017, and we're here in the conference room for the Center for Urban Agriculture. We're here with Colonel Jones, who is the former superintendent of -- should say Curtis Jones, who's the former superintendent of Griffin Spalding County schools and currently superintendent of schools in Macon, Georgia. My name is Art Cain. I'm here at the University of Georgia in the Office of Continuing Education. CURTIS JONES:Hi. I'm Curtis Jones, superintendent of the Bibb County school system. I'm also a resident of Griffin Spalding County, and I am a former superintendent here for six years. JEWEL WALKER-HARPS:Jewel Walker-Harps, president of the Griffin branch NAACP, and cosponsor of the African American Oral History Project. ELLEN BAUSKE:I'm Ellen Bauske. I'm with the UGA Center for Urban Agriculture. RICHIE BRAMAN:I'm Richie Braman. And I'm also with the UGA Center for Urban Agriculture. CAIN:Okay, I'll start. Curtis, I have considered you a literal icon here in Griffin. You've had many distinguished accomplishments over your career, being the first African American principal at Griffin High School, first African American superintendent of schools here in Griffin. Prior to that a distinguished career in our military. And now currently superintendent of Bibb County schools. And what we want you to do is just kind of reflect back and tell us how you got -- how you were able to be able to set yourself up to have such accomplishments as you've had over the course of your career. JONES:I appreciate that. Truthfully it's not about me, it's about a lot of folks. And I'll tell you it begins with my mom and my dad. Mom was a teacher here in Griffin Spalding. She taught at -- as far as I can remember the first school was Annie Shockley Elementary. And I'll tell you, being a child of a teacher at the school can be hard, right, Richie? We were able to get in trouble, and whenever I got in trouble in second grade, they said, "Boy, I'm going to tell your mama." I learned to get straight. I will tell you that my dad was a minister here at Trinity CME Church. And because of that it created a foundation. After going through an experience at Anne Street and being in segregated schools for grades one through four, voluntary segregation -- integration occurred, and I was allowed to go to Sacred Heart Elementary School. And while at Sacred Heart I learned a lot of different skills. I remember my brother, my sister, and I were usually the minorities in our class, and it was the first time you had to wear a uniform. At that time it was a white shirt, navy blue pants, and black or brown shoes. As you've already mentioned though, I learned to wear a uniform for 20 years after that, when I joined the army. That became though part of the experience that my parents put us through, because while I stayed at Sacred Heart for two years, what I found was that when it was time to go to seventh grade, I had to make a decision. Was I going to go to what was called Spalding Junior High or go to Kelsey? One was a majority black school, one was majority white. We currently at that time lived in Barnesville, and we commuted back and forth every day. And so like most kids I just turned to the people who were in my class and said, "Where are you going?" And the majority of them said Spalding Junior High. So I went too. I think at that age it was trying to be, you know, know who your friends are and go. I also will tell you though that I think part of it started with my parents allowing me to play football when I was in sixth grade. Eleven years old, never played organized sports, but I will tell you that I still remember this, but at the end of that first season I got the most valuable player award. (laughs) And I still remember what it looks like. But it was different, because I truthfully had more fun practicing than playing the football games. Practice, you know who your friends are, you're competing with them, you talk to them about what you're doing. After that I went to junior high, and that was a very unique experience. And I will tell you it was unique in several ways. There was one individual named Wayne K. who was -- I'd known when I was in first grade. And then Wayne and I separated. We came back together in seventh. And Wayne was in advanced classes and I was in regular classes. But we were both able to compete. Later on Wayne went on to Howard University and became a lawyer. Another person I met when I was there was Randal. Randal came from Pike County but Randal also went on and became a state legislator. And -- WALKER-HARPS:Randal Mangham? JONES:Yeah. Randal Mangham. And so he and I became friends at that point. It was interesting when we went through that. But learning football and learning who people were and creating relationships I think was key for me at that point, because it was interesting, but during that time of voluntary integration, I remember in eighth grade I ran for student body president. And I was riding home in the car with my mom one day. She said, "Boy, you ran for president of that school?" (laughs) And I said, "How did you know?" And she said, "I know. You going to win?" I said, "Mom, I don't know." Turned out I came in second. But it was surprising to Mom that, you know, we even came that close at all. And she also thought it was funny because -- I'll say this to you, Jewel -- I ran. Randal ran. Wayne ran. A girl named Michelle R. ran as well. A bunch of us ran. We were just kids going to school. And then I think, Art, what happened for me also though was I went to Griffin High. And Griffin High, when now you had mandatory integration of schools, and that for me was in the tenth grade. And what I remember distinctly about that summer is this. At the time the integration of schools was based on the seventy-thirty percentage. Seventy percent black, 30 percent -- no, 70 percent white, 30 percent black. And there was a guy who I knew, Danny Wayne. Danny Wayne was the copresident of that class. And Danny Wayne was another student who was with me at Annie Shockley. He was two years ahead. He was a person I looked up to. I said, "Like man, I want to grow up and be like Danny." So I come back after all these years and I see him for the very first time and he's copresident. And Danny is writing on the blackboard. And he puts twelfth grade seven white three -- seven Griffin High three Fairmont. And then he -- eleventh grade, seven, three. He got to tenth grade. And he wrote six parentheses one, three. And I remember sitting there looking at that and saying, "What?" And a friend of mine, Tony Head, who I played with later, said, "Curtis, why are you looking at that like that?" I said, "Why'd he put six, one in parentheses?" He says, "Because it's seven white but you came from Spalding. They voted you in so they're trying to figure out how to count you." (laughs) And I felt like holy cow. And so Danny then went over -- yes, sir. CAIN:I just -- JONES:Am I talking too much? CAIN:Can you tell us a little bit (inaudible) continue but I just wanted you to tell us a little bit about that distinction between voluntary integration and mandatory I guess. JONES:Okay. So I will tell you what my thoughts are. Mom was a teacher. And I remember when I was going to Annie Shockley, which was an all-black school -- now it's called Anne Street -- Mom was a teacher there. And I think teachers were required to send their children to public schools. Was -- that was my impression. But that year Mom said, "Curtis, you don't have to go to Anne Street any -- to Annie Shockley anymore, we want to put you in Sacred Heart. And -- but it's voluntary. You don't have to go." That was what she said. And I said, "Is anybody else going?" And I said, "I don't know." And so that whole idea of voluntary was you were able then to go to a white school if you were black or a black school if you were white. But you volunteered to do that. And really it kicked in for me when -- between that Spalding Junior High and Fairmont. Because I didn't know at the time there were two different middle schools. I just didn't. I just stayed in my class or stayed in my lane. And so when we got there it was probably -- if it was seventy-thirty when I got to high school, it must have been ninety-ten (laughs) when I was in junior high. But I will tell you, the people who were there wanted to be there. And we kind of band together a little bit. But it was interesting. When I got to tenth grade there was no longer that option. And I'll be honest with you. My experience now tells me that Griffin Spalding did it well. They decided to have one school where all seventh graders went, one school for all eighth graders, one school for all ninth graders. And then one high school for grades 10, 11, and 12. That didn't happen all over the South but it happened here in Griffin Spalding. And I remember my mom telling me -- she came back from a board meeting and she said, "You know," and she named the principal, he was the principal up at Beaverbrook. And he just said, "You know, we've been dragging our feet on this for about 15 years, they just told us it's time to do it, so we're going to do it." CAIN:So it was that transition from that voluntary period until -- JONES:To mandatory. CAIN:-- full. Yeah. JONES:Full integration. WALKER-HARPS:The law insisted that you do it when it became mandatory. When we consider prior to then when we -- teachers and students transferred that it was voluntary. But I never did because I went -- and I didn't volunteer, I went because -- JONES:(laughs) You were told. WALKER-HARPS:(inaudible). JONES:Well, you know, the thing that was interesting is my mom was told that same year that I went to Sacred Heart. She ended up being assigned to Beaverbrook and I remember she was scared. And it's interesting when you're a child and you see your mom worried about that. Didn't know about the north side of Griffin or Spalding County and she ended up going there for that one year. And I remember hearing, heard Mom and Dad just talking about it. But she went. And my impression was -- now this is where I may get in trouble -- the black schools picked who they thought were some of the very best teachers that would go, that would not embarrass them. And then later my impression was that some of the white teachers who went to the black schools may not have been the very best but they were some -- the ones with the best attitudes about I can go and I can make a difference. And that ended up being key. Part of what made it work for me though was Mom. Mom went to Beaverbrook. Later she went to Jackson Road with a principal, Gladys Harden. Stayed there for about 20 years I think. WALKER-HARPS:At least. JONES:Became a part of that family. And was special. But I think that experience in Griffin High worked for me. When you talk about being the first black principal or the first black ROTC, I will tell you it started for me back in high school. In high school when I was in eleventh grade I ran for student body president. Truthfully it was I think having white friends and black friends, playing football, being somewhat, you know, known. And that same guy who was with me who said, "Curtis, they're trying to figure out what to do with you," that was Tony. He got elected vice president. I got elected president. And after that my mom came to me and said, "I'm just surprised. I never thought that would happen at this point in time." But I also remember a Ms. Ball. Ms. Ball was the counselor at the school. WALKER-HARPS:Virginia Ball. JONES:Virginia Ball. I wasn't sure how much names I could use. I can use them? WALKER-HARPS:(inaudible). JONES:Okay. Virginia Ball. Had been my second grade teacher when she was Ms. Hodo at Annie Shockley. Then when I was getting ready to go to fifth grade she'd gotten married, became Ms. Ball, was going to be my fifth grade teacher. Well, I get to high school, and there she is the counselor. And I remember Ms. Ball saying, "Curtis, you're fortunate, you're going to be president of the student body. But you need to work something out. What's going to happen when you leave? We always need to have some kind of representation. And so I think you ought to do something like the president is black, the vice president is white, or vice versa. But they need to do that." I said, "Ms. Ball, how can I do anything about that?" She says, "You're the president of the student body, the first one that we've had, just talk to the principal." And so I did. I went and talked to Coach Gray and I just shared that idea with him and he said, "Curtis, why would we do that?" And my response was, "You run for president of the United States, you're on the ticket, let them run on tickets. And doesn't have to be mandatory but if things are like they are I think people are going to see diversity as a good thing." I was surprised but when I came back to Griffin after 20 years in the military, people running for student body council at Griffin High were running on tickets. One black, one white. And that's who was winning. Not mandatory. But people were still electing that way. That was surprising to me. CAIN:Just to back up a little bit about your run for president, student body president at the time. Was that -- how did you -- because you were kind of in two worlds. How did you cultivate the kind of relationships in both worlds that allowed you -- allowed for you to get that kind of vote from your student body colleagues? JONES:I think in a lot of ways it was athletics. When I played football I started off in the city league. And back in that day elementary schools had their own football teams. And so we played and I learned who the players were, they learned who I was. That second year they stopped having school teams but they just had rec teams and you signed up. But truthfully the athletes knew each other. And that group of us in that particular year, we were pretty special, I'll be honest. We got together in eighth grade. So and that just became the nucleus I would say. But that group of us, we stayed together. We were undefeated in eighth. Undefeated in ninth. About four of us made the varsity as sophomores. And then when we became seniors our team went nine, one, and one, won the region championship, beat R. E. Lee for the first time in recent history and people were happy. And I just think it was just a special group that came together. Randy Pass was on the team, ended up playing for the New York Giants, went to Georgia Tech on a scholarship. Tony Head ended up going to Georgia Tech, doing very well. Terry Willis, who was -- went to Fort Valley. David Wolfoff, who became a city policeman here, went to Fort Valley on a scholarship. Setter Jun, Keith Tubble. I mean we were just -- we were pretty good. But I think athletics did that. And when I got to West Point what I learned was that it's on those fields when you're struggling with something that is unique -- not unique, but common to everybody. You form a friendship. And I think that happened for us at that time. We were special. I'll tell you now. It was scary. I remember my sophomore year when we were playing one of the very first games. Might have been like the third game of the season. It was a home game and there was this guy who was walking on this guy's yard and he got killed. Shot, because he was trespassing. After that they changed all our games to day games. We started playing on Saturdays. Coach Dowis, who was our head football coach, Johnny Goodrum, who was an assistant coach, made a difference though. That next year they took us up to summer training camp and they said, "Look, forget what's happening there. This is about us and what we're going to do." And that training experience for us just bonded us in a way that you can't imagine. You ever seen the movie Remember the Titans? CAIN:Mm-hmm. JONES:It was just like that experience where we went up and went to camp and we came back. And we were just unique. So anyway I think living in both worlds worked for me. It made it easier for me to then decide to go to West Point. That was probably life-changing for me in more ways than I realized. Now I'll tell you, I only did one year of ROTC in high school. Didn't want to be in the military. (laughs) No. Didn't want to wear a uniform. But West Point was unique. And when my dad found out about the opportunity for me to go, because Congressman Jack Flynt gave me a nomination, he said, "Son, if that works for you that's the thing to do. I'm trying to save money for you to go to college. But if you do this it'll help us out a whole lot." And that by itself was unique. Just, you know, sometimes it just turns out how things happen. I was in a French class. Mr. Russell was my French teacher. And Mr. Russell said to me -- he was absent one day -- and he said, "Curtis, what did you say with that substitute teacher who was in here?" And I said, "Sir, I didn't say anything. (laughs) I didn't do anything. I'm sorry." He says, "No no no, it's good." And he was out again and she came back. Turned out later I found out she was really a vocational teacher that they had sent in. And -- but we were talking about race and issues like that. And she just came up to me one day and said, "What are you going to do when you graduate?" I said, "I think I want to fly airplanes, maybe be a pilot." And she said, "You think you can do that?" And I said, "I guess." So she said, "I got a person I want you to meet and I'm -- he's going to give you a call." That person was Jack Flynt. She had been his teacher. And so he called, asked me to come out to his house, he lived down there on Poplar Street. And he told me. He says, "Curtis, you impressed my former teacher. I still listen to her. She asked me to give you a nomination for West Point. I don't -- I mean for the Air Force Academy. I don't have any. But if you're willing to go to Military Academy I can get you one of those. And if that doesn't work out for you, I have a friend named John Conyers," a guy from I think Michigan, or Pennsylvania. CAIN:No, Detroit. JONES:Detroit, Michigan. "He can get you a nomination to the Air Force Academy if you like that." And I said, "Yes, sir." I'm thinking like man. That was how I ended up going. But West Point changed and it was all because of football and being willing to work with people. So a long answer to a short question. CAIN:Great answer. WALKER-HARPS:You talked about several young men who went to Spalding with you. Did you bond as a unit or was there rivalry among you? JONES:Well, Randal was on the football team and Randal Mangham is the one who became a state legislator and he and I ended up being -- we continued to be friends. With Wayne, Wayne and I had been -- Wayne came to Anne Street -- Annie Shockley -- for like two weeks. His mom was my first grade teacher. And he then left and went to Moore Elementary and attended school there until we got to junior high. There was no competition among us. Wayne was just smart. I was an athlete. And so I don't think we had any kind of competition among ourselves. What I learned is that there was safety. And so sometimes you see somebody in the hallway and they would just give you a look or a nod and you felt like it was okay. I remember though there was a -- in middle school, you know how you have bullies? There was this one family moved in. And they were fighting everybody. (laughs) They were fighting everybody. There was one black boy there who was, what's his name, James Leeks. James said, "Look, I'm not going to fight you." But these three brothers that moved in, they were Caldwells, they were going to fight everybody. And so they did. And we had a big fight in the gym between James and the middle Caldwell boy, first name was Joe. And it just happened. You know, but to be truthful, whenever that happens, teachers aren't around. (laughs) Principals aren't around. It just happens. And everybody knew that fight was going to happen. And when it was over, I remember the Caldwell boy looked at me and said, "All right, I'm going to fight you tomorrow." (laughs) I looked. And I said, "Why?" He says, "Because I'm going to be king of the hill." And I said, "Okay. You can be king of the hill." He says, "That's it? We're not going to fight?" And I said, "No." He threw his hands up in the air and said, "Yay, I'm the best." And for him that was a big deal. So that's what he wanted to do. But there was no competition for us. You know, we were just trying to make honor roll, trying to do well. And that's just -- that was what it was. But again when I played football I'll tell you this. Mom was driving a Simca, and practice would be after school. And I could see the car up on the hill every day just waiting to -- waiting for practice to be over so I can get my stinky behind in the car and ride 17 miles to get home. But there was no competition for that. Now I'll tell you when there was competition was when we integrated the schools in high school. That first year when we came together, you have to think about it this way. You had two football teams, one black, one white, one Fairmont, one Griffin High. And you had two returning quarterbacks, two returning centers. Everybody was a starter who was coming back. And the question became how's that going to work. Johnny Goodrum, who ended up being assistant coach, had been -- and Coach Hiram Whitaker had been the head football coach over there. They made him the assistant coach for Coach Dowis. Trying to pull staff together, trying to pull teams together. I mean that was hard. It was very hard. Because people thought they were going to start. For me it ended up being a little bit more difficult. And I'll tell you why. Those black boys who were at Fairmont, they didn't know me. This was just a little black boy who was over there playing with those white boys, who can't play. And they were going to show me they could play. And I tell you what. (laughs) We had drills. And they lit me up. Day after day after day. But eventually I think I won them over by just keep -- I just kept coming back and just kept trying to learn. And I'll say this. Coach Goodrum, who was the backs coach at the time, he was setting me up too. Curtis, go over there and run the ball. Oowee. But after that, turned out to be okay. Here's what else happened though, Art, that made things work for me. After going to West Point and coming back after 20 years, and I found out that Mom was sick, and she needed help transitioning from the hospital to come home, and for me it was a transitional period. I had three children. We wanted them to learn their grandparents. I came back to Griffin. And I went into a meeting with one of my friends down in Barnesville, Carl Ogletree. And Carl said, "Curtis, go find out about ROTC in Griffin. My wife is a teacher and she can find out if we can start one here in Lamar County. You go up to Griffin and find out how to do it." Well, I did. And in Griffin they told me, "It's a federal thing, you just can't start one. They're not starting any more. But our guy Colonel Imes is getting ready to retire. Why don't you come interview for that job?" And I said, "Like whoa, okay. I don't have a uniform." "You don't need a uniform, just come on up." This was like on a Tuesday. I got home, I got a phone call. "This is Colonel Imes. Is this Curtis Jones?" "Yes, sir." "I understand that you're interested in Junior ROTC." "Well, I really don't know a lot about Junior ROTC." "Well, I'm getting ready to retire. I've been here for 20 years." And I'll tell you that caused me pause. And I'll tell you why. When I was in high school at Griffin High ROTC started in 1966. Major Pelt came aboard in 1967. And then they had a couple other people that came on. But I'm talking about in '97 when I got back, Imes had been there for 20 of those 30 years. That's how long he had been at Griffin High. He was an institution. And he called me up, interviewed me, and said, "Look, I'm going to recommend you for the job." As I was getting ready to leave I saw this guy. And he was a black NCO. And he said, "Hey, sir, how you doing?" I said, "I'm fine, how are you?" And he said, "I'm good." He said, "You Curtis Jones?" And I said, "Yes, sir, I am." "One that played football at Griffin High, number 21?" "Yes, sir, I am." "One that used to play for the Saints back when you were in the sixth grade?" "Yes, sir, I am, how do you know that?" He said, "I used to be a recruiter back in Griffin, I saw you then. My name is Lee McRae. And you up here interviewing for this job?" I said, "Yes, sir, I am." He said, "I think you're going to get it because they're looking for somebody from Griffin to come on back and you're just a Griffin kind of guy." Because of Lee I think I helped get the job. Went in for an interview with the principal, who was Mike McLemore, was the incoming principal. And Larry White was the outgoing principal. They did a joint interview. McLemore said, "I'm going to recommend you for the position," so we started out together. And I'll just tell you that that just turned out to be a blessing for me with Lee McRae and how that turned out. But again I think it was part of having my being in both worlds because when I found out I was going to be recommended to be the principal -- this is four years later -- I needed some recommendations. And he was one of them. And so was Dr. McLemore. But I will tell you something that worked for me. Having done ROTC for four years at the school, and having done the interviews, I'll be honest, I was scared. I mean Griffin High was a big school. It was like 1,900 kids, one of the biggest in the state. And people used to come to Griffin to see what a school looks like. And this is from a guy who's been in the army for 20 years but didn't really know a whole lot about what to do. I'll tell you Mom said to me, "They going to make you the principal? What are they thinking about?" (laughs) I said, "Well, Mom." I said, "I don't know." And so what happened was I ended up interviewing, got the position. And during one of the very first meetings we had -- this is another thing that worked for me -- we went out on the football field to talk about what happens during a bomb threat. And when we were coming back in all the black staff peeled off to the right and went down the 600 -- down the 800 hallway into a room. And Doc Richard Beaton was walking in with me, and he said, "Where are all those folks going?" And Kay Moore, who was my secretary, about to be my secretary, said, "Oh, the black staff wants to meet with Dr. -- with Colonel Jones." And he said, "Well, I want to go." And she said, "No, you can't go, this is just for them." And he said, "Oh. Okay." Well, he said, "When you finish that you come talk to me." I said, "Doc, I'll come see you." So I went into the room. And they said to me, "Look, you're the first black principal for Griffin High School. We want you to be successful. We don't want you to do anything stupid. We're going to support you. We're going to do our very best. We ask that you do your very best as well." And I said, "Okay." And we kind of came to that common understanding. Never met like that again. Never had that conversation again. Until I was asked to speak at a black history program and I shared that story probably, I don't know, it may have been 16 years later. Where that group just said, "We're going to support you." And I can tell you I can remember occasions now that may not seem significant where they helped me. I'll give you one. I was asked to make morning announcements when I was the principal. And, you know, going through school, you learn phonics and how to speak, but there was this word that I said that was wrong. I would always say, "And this," how did I say it? I said, "And this Saurday I want you guys to come in and talk to us about how to do this." Or, "This Saurday we're going to do this." Jewel McCann was one of my English teachers. She came down and she said, "Look. If you're going to be principal of this school you're going to stop saying Saurday. It's Saturday." I said, "Yes, ma'am." That was the small kinds of things they did to help me out that, you know, in some ways will take away your credibility but in other ways -- and so she helped me with that. BAUSKE:I'm confused about ROTC and principal. JONES:Okay. BAUSKE:Can you talk about that (inaudible). JONES:What happened? BAUSKE:Yes. JONES:So when I joined the staff in '97 the principal made me the chairperson of the discipline committee for school improvement. The next year, he made me the -- a -- I guess I was the cochair a second time of that committee. Then my third year, he put me in charge of the school improvement. And that fourth year he retired. And so based on that and working on SAT improvement, the superintendent and others asked me if I'd apply for the position. And so I then moved from after four years of doing ROTC, I became the principal of the high school. And then after being principal of the high school for four years I was talking to Walter Powry, who was then the assistant superintendent. And I was saying, "Dr. Powry, you know, I've been doing this now for about four years, I'm trying to understand. Where am I going?" And he says, "Curtis, I'm probably going to retire in about two years and I think you're going to be taking my place." Turned out he retired that year, and I applied for that position and I got it as well. BAUSKE:And what year was it? JONES:That was 2005. So I was assistant super -- so ROTC for four years, high school principal for four years, and then I became the assistant superintendent for administrative services for four years. And then after that I applied to become the superintendent and I got that as well. That was another story too. I'll just give you the short part about help. I was a member of Trinity CME Church, that's where my dad had been a pastor. Johnny Goodrum was a member of that church as well as some other folks who were educators. And one day I was -- got a phone call from Johnny Goodrum, and he said, "Curtis, can you meet me down at the church?" And I said, "Yeah, coach, I can meet you down there." Told you he was my previous coach. He says, "There's some people want to meet you, they understand you're going to be -- you're applying to be superintendent and they just want to talk to you." "Okay." I told my wife about it and she said, "What are they going to do?" I said, "Dear, I don't know." So I went down to the church and inside the church there was William Matchett, Dr. -- was the principal at Moore -- WALKER-HARPS:Nesbith. JONES:Dr. William Nesbith. Johnny Goodrum. Mr. Walker. WALKER-HARPS:William Walker. JONES:William Walker. Were there. And Coach Goodrum. And Coach Goodrum introduced them all. Truthfully I'd never really met any of them before except Goodrum at the time. And kind of knew Matchett. And he just told me, said, "They want to talk to you because you're going to apply to be the superintendent." And it turned out they didn't -- I thought it was going to be an interview. It turned out them just telling me stories about what happened with them as they were administrators and going through and lessons that they learned. So I was there for about an hour and a half just listening to these wise guys tell me about what they had learned and some of their experiences. And then after that I told my wife about it and she said, "What'd they ask you?" And I told her they just talked to me. Later I found out though that that group had actually called the superintendent and some board members and they endorsed me for being superintendent. And Jesse Bradley, who at that time was the superintendent, said, "Curtis, I want to be honest with you. You got people on the north side of town and people on the south side of town. You got people on the north side of town, that's the black side, and they're supporting you. You got people on the south side of town," and they're supporting this other internal candidate who was there who turned out -- who was white. And he says, "But the advantage you have is you also got some people on the south side of town calling for you as well." He says, "I don't know if that's going to make a big difference or not but it means something to me." And I ended up getting the position. So that ended up being unique as well. And I'll be honest. As superintendent I fully felt supported by everybody. And I was worried there for a while, you know. Ms. Harps scared me for a while. She was president of the NAACP, I said, "Oh Lord, what is she going to call and ask me? What do I have to do? I'm trying to raise the graduation rate. Just give me some time." (laughs) WALKER-HARPS:You had advantage. Your mom and I were very very good friends. And your dad had been a good friend. JONES:And he was also friends with Calvin Hill, who was my ninth grade science teacher. Remember I told you when I was in first grade, when I was in elementary? I was in tenth grade biology class with some students. And I'll be honest. Biology was hard. And Mr. Hill was the teacher. And I remember one day we were getting ready to do some -- cut some frogs and that kind of stuff. And people were just acting silly. And so I started acting silly with them. He just grabbed me and took me aside, said, "Look, boy, I know your daddy, you keep that up, I'm going to call him." And I said, "You know my dad?" He said, "I know Curtis. And I know Roberta." And I said, "Ooh." (laughs) Didn't get out of line anymore after that. So for me I think that helped me out some so -- CAIN:Can I -- WALKER-HARPS:How well were you received by the white staff at Griffin High? Because that was their first experience having to receive orders from a black person? And particularly a black man. Were there challenges? JONES:Well, yes and no. So the first part of it is Mr. Johnston, who had been the French teacher when I was in high school, Jim, James Johnston, was one of the ones who wrote a letter of endorsement for me for going into the position. He had been Evelyn's teacher when we were in high school, and so he still remembered, he was one of the ones who I visited when I came back. Mark Fenezee had been my ninth grade science teacher, and so now Mark was the head of the counseling department. There was also Ms. Jackson, who was my ninth -- my tenth grade math teacher, who was there for that one year, who introduced me to Evelyn, who I -- became my girlfriend and my -- now my wife. And so I was not a total stranger to some. And so that helped when I first got there. And when I became the principal, because I'd been on the staff and had led the leadership, there -- most of them were willing to come on board. We had another issue that divided us more so than being a black principal, and that is that we were opening Spalding Junior High -- Spalding High School at that point in time. And the principal who was going to be for Spalding High was located in that building and was actively recruiting people. And at this point now I'm going to be the principal and he's telling people, "Come on over with us to Spalding High School because we're going to have a great school." And people are like, "Well, wait a minute, you saying we're not great?" And so -- and well, you're great, but you're going to stay here, we're going to go do this other thing. And it was like oh. And so it just divided the staff. And it started before we even had opened Spalding High. And so that was difficult because I'm now the person who's going to be the principal of the school. Todd is the -- yeah. Well, put his name -- was -- WALKER-HARPS:(inaudible) it's okay. JONES:Todd McGee was going to be the principal of Spalding High. And he pulled in one of our assistant principals who was out who was making this. That's what was hard. And then trying to figure out how do you divide a staff and keep things going. And wondering are you losing -- and who you're losing. It turned out later, what I realized is that a lot of the people who went to Spalding had come from Spalding Junior High and were ninth grade teachers and they had never really felt as if they were a full part of the staff at Griffin High anyway. And so they were able to go and create that environment, that school that they wanted to have. Now here's a story though that was hard. One day I was principal of the school, and I walked out of the main office into the hallway and I looked down. And classes were going on. And I saw this group of people come out of the building. And it was a mother, her child, assistant principal, teacher. And the mother said, "Look, I'm not going to talk to you anymore. I'm just going down. I'm going to see the principal." And the boy looked up and said, "Well, there's the principal right there." And she says, "I ain't going to talk to him, I'm going downtown." And so they left and went downtown. Wally Snell, who was my assistant principal, and Clint Middleton came, who was the teacher, came, told me what had happened. They said, "Son is not doing well, he's failing, we tried to tell them that. But, you know, they wanted to talk to you but we just said going downtown." So they did. Little while later I got a phone call from Walter Powry and Walter said, "Curtis, just had this parent come see me. And she's not happy. But I told her she got to follow chain of command, she's coming back to see you. But I'm going to tell you now race is a part of this issue." And I said, "Oh, okay." So I thought about it. She was white, her son was white. Clint Middleton was a black male. Wally Snell, the assistant principal, was a black male. I was the principal of the school, a black male. She got downtown and saw the assistant superintendent Walter Powry, a black male. (laughs) She came back in and saw me. What I did though was Jamie Cassidy, who was an assistant principal I had, was on campus, and I called Jamie in, who was white. We met, we had a great conversation. But the conversation started off with the student looking at me and saying, "Colonel Jones, just want to tell you, I don't really have a problem with Negroes. I mean I have a lot of friends who are." And I said, "No problem." And so that was -- we had situations like that, I guess, you know, but Cassidy was great, he helped that environment. And I'll tell you I learned something. People want to take care of their kids the very best they can. And they just want to believe that somebody understands. And what that parent was looking for was somebody who she thought understood. For her that was Cassidy. WALKER-HARPS:I would think that more so than race your military background and your procedure, your attitude would have had more effect than race. JONES:(laughs) WALKER-HARPS:(inaudible) after having come back from the military, and your sternness, and your being so adamant about what you believed. JONES:Well, that did get me in trouble. We were coming back from a meeting in Macon one day. And it was my first year. And my secretary called and said, "Colonel Jones, I have a petition from some teachers." "A petition?" "Yes." "What is it about?" "They don't think you're enforcing the dress code with students and so they're mad. And so they --" "How many people signed that?" "Oh, 25, 30." "Are you serious?" "Yes, sir." I said, "Tell you what. We're going to have a faculty meeting. We're on our way back now. I want everybody to meet me on the JROTC rifle range." "The rifle range?" I said, "The rifle range. I want you to take the chairs in the rifle range, I want you to divide them in half, I want them facing each other, one on one side of the room, one on the other. We'll be back in about 35 minutes." Got back to Griffin High School. Ms. Moore met me at the door and said, "They're all down on the rifle range." (laughs) I said, "Okay." Went down to the rifle range. My assistant principals were waiting for me. I walked in. I said, "Look, I see this petition. People say that they're upset about dress code. I am too but here's the problem. If you have a child for first period and the child is not in dress code, you didn't do anything about it, and that makes second period, third period, fourth period, and fifth period teachers all upset because they think everybody's breaking dress code just because you didn't enforce it. So right now in this room we got the people on this side who are the ones who signed this petition. And on this side is those who didn't. I will do whatever it is you want me to do, I work for you, so here's the deal. All of you who think we're not enforcing dress code, you need to talk to these on this side about what it is you need to do. And you-all finished having that conversation come get me and my assistant principals, we'll be waiting on you in the hallway. Just tell me how you want to do it." I turned around, I started walking out. And one of the teachers said, "Colonel Jones, can I ask you a question?" I said, "No. You need to ask them over there." We walked on out. About 5 minutes later, maybe 10 minutes later, Dr. Beaton came out and said, "We worked it out. We have a way. We're going to enforce the dress code now. We understand." And the other thing that we did though was at that point we were starting to record all of our faculty meetings because football coaches couldn't be there. And so later on I went back to look at the tape. And this one teacher I had said, "Turn off that camera, they're trying to turn us against each other." (laughs) So but so that sternness did get me in trouble. I still have teachers today who remind me of taking them down to the rifle range. But that was the way we tried to approach things. Just straightforwardly and dealt with it. Now if I had to do it over again I may take them to the cafeteria. But the rifle range (laughs) -- WALKER-HARPS:(inaudible). JONES:But I wanted them close. I didn't want them spread out. I needed them to be able to see each other and engage. WALKER-HARPS:(inaudible) called the rifle range. (laughs) JONES:It was called the rifle range. WALKER-HARPS:I thought you were going to say they were going to shoot (inaudible). JONES:(laughs) So that got us into a little bit of trouble. Dress code. But, you know, but we worked hard. We worked hard. BAUSKE:What'd you do in the military? JONES:So in the military I was an infantry officer for 20 years and -- BAUSKE:Start and finish? The dates? JONES:So -- okay. So I went to -- graduated from Griffin High in 1973. Started at West Point that summer for what's called Beast Barracks. Graduated four years later in 1977 and became an infantry officer. And just to tell you how much I am a Griffin boy, so Evelyn, who was still my girlfriend at that time, and was still a member of Trinity Church, my dad a pastor, we got married at Trinity, Dad did the marriage. My brother was my best man. Barbara, my sister-in-law was the maid of honor. Or Mycie was, the other sister. But it was in the infantry for 20 years. Was assigned to Fort Benning, Georgia for one tour of duty for three, assigned to Albany State College for three to teach Senior ROTC. Was assigned to Hinesville, Georgia where I did -- was an infantry officer. And then I also did one year at Fort Leavenworth as a just school, Command and General Staff College. And did a total of six years in Germany. Three of those as an infantry officer, our very first assignment, and then three years as a comptroller. Very unique experience for me. I was a new army major, was going to Heidelberg, Germany, I was a comptroller. And I found out that the budget I was responsible for was $1.1 billion. (laughs) And there's my first assignment. The army just threw you in there and said, "Figure it out." Later on I also had my last tour of duty in the Pentagon. So I retired in '97. But I was a comptroller there for the Joint Chiefs of Staff for fighting counter drugs and that budget was like $1.3 billion. So at least then I had some experience. So that was what I did but -- while I was in. CAIN:Can I back you up one more time? JONES:Sure. CAIN:Okay, you said when -- that when mandatory integration hit -- JONES:Okay. CAIN:-- and you had the two football teams come together that there was obviously a quarterback from one team was competing for -- from both teams were competing for one spot. If I take that and ask about integration between the two schools, Fairmont and say Griffin High, okay, or merging almost two districts together, you have that same kind of scenario, I would think, where you would have to decide who was going to be the English teacher at Griffin High, and you've got an English teacher at Fairmont and English teacher at Griffin High. You had that same kind of scenario as you merged those two entities together. Do you know anything about how that was dealt with? And whether there was fairness, the idea of fairness, in trying to do that merger? That had to be a little bit of a challenge. JONES:I don't have a great deal of knowledge about that. But here's what my initial thoughts are. Remember I said that we had one school that was for seventh, one school for eighth, one school for ninth, and then one school for 10, 11, 12? If you had the approximate correct class size you probably needed all the teachers you had, you just had to decide who was going to teach what. And so I don't think it was a -- I don't remember hearing any issues being discussed about somebody not being able to get that particular position. I mean you're -- almost always you were looking for some teachers who would come. And I remember even when I was there we had turnovers of black teachers and white teachers. So it wasn't quite the same in that regard because on the football team you only have 11 starters. Here it could expand based on the number of teachers to accommodate what you, you know, what you need to have. CAIN:Enrollments (inaudible). JONES:Yeah. I think it expanded. Made it easier to accommodate. What was hard was I think when you -- who was going to be the principal, who was going to be the assistant principal, who was going to be the head coach, and that kind of thing. And I do remember thinking that you had a football coach at Fairmont who became an assistant. And the new coach who was in charge had his own system that was different. And I'll tell you though. That quarterback situation was hard. Randy Jones had been a student that I knew at Sacred Heart who was now the quarterback. Eleventh -- he started as a -- I think he started as a sophomore and as a junior. Now he's coming back for senior year. And then you had Greg Wellmaker who started as a sophomore and as a junior at Fairmont who was coming back. And they were different. And the offense the coach wanted to put in. Because he was new too. It was only his second year. Was hard for them to figure out. And so you had to -- they had to figure out how they were going to make it work. I'll tell you though, my senior year, that whole idea though about -- I'm just going to say skill takes over. It was interesting. Our starting quarterback that first year when we got there was a guy named Charles Buckaloo. He broke his leg in the first game. The backup quarterback was David Sprine, who broke his leg in the third game. So now we're down to our third-string quarterback who was a guy named Willie Jordan who was a black kid who was a sophomore. Willie was a better athlete than both those guys. And Willie could throw the ball at least 45 yards on the fly. Came in, started as a sophomore, continued to start as a junior, and finished as a senior. Went on to Tennessee and played football. And so but people were just about winning. And I'll tell you. Football pulled this community together back then better than anything you can imagine. And I take pride in the fact that we were part of that group that started that whole process of just making it work. But it was, you know, kind of like making sausages. Didn't look good when it first started. You had to have the right people there to do it. WALKER-HARPS:Were you a part of the group that decided what the team would be called (inaudible) Bears or whatever and the colors or whatever? Were you a part of that group? JONES:I was not a part of that group, that was -- Danny Wayne was the president. And what they did was they pulled together a group of students from Fairmont and a group of students from Griffin High and those students had to come together, what those ideas were going to be. Now I think suggestions were made to them, but it's -- truthfully it was pretty much an equal compromise. If you remember, it was the Griffin High Eagles and the Fairmont Bears. And so they decided to make it the Griffin High Bears. Fairmont's colors were blue and white. Griffin High's were green and white. And so we ended up becoming the green and gold because Fairmont also had a gold color. And so it was just a compromise. Now some people said, "Why does a black school got to get the mascot? Why can't we be the Fairmont whatever?" But for the players when we got those new uniforms -- and I'll be honest, they gave us a bus. It was painted green and gold. And they started feeding us pregame meals. (laughs) Hey, we were doing fine. And we thought we were going to be pretty good, and we were, we were. All righty. Anything else? Have I talked about what you wanted me to talk about? CAIN:You've covered a whole lot and it's been -- I guess I could ask one more question, and it gets -- this goes back to early years. I know you're going to have to run here. Grandparents' influence. Influence from grandparents, great-grandparents on you, on the family. JONES:Okay. Mom and Dad came from Texas. And Dad was a minister as I said. Initially lived in Pike County. He got his church at Trinity, which is still here, where I currently attend. And so I didn't really know a lot about grandparents. I can remember the first time that Mom would take us back to Texas and spend time with our grandparents on her side of the family. I now know it was because she was working on her master's. And she was going to University of Georgia. And so she had to find something to do with us, because during the summers when Dad was having his church, either vacation Bible school was going on or it was revival. And so had to figure something out. So we would go stay with my mom's mom. And truthfully that's when I learned my cousins and my uncles, and that's when I learned a lot about them. And then later we would go visit my dad's family. And so that was a support. But what I came to realize is that on both sides of the family they had been down as sharecroppers. They moved to the Dallas-Fort Worth area which is what we then recognized. And then the idea though was that -- that I came to recognize is my mom went to college. My dad went to college because of the G.I. Bill. Learned to cut hair. He was a barber. And then he had been in the field artillery. My dad's brother was a career army man, a sergeant. And I remember him talking to me about running a basic camp. And I had a picture. It was him and all these trainees and he was the only black person in that picture. And he said, "Curtis, in the army is the only place where I can tell white people what to do." I was teaching Junior ROTC at Griffin High and Sergeant Major Lang, who was one of my instructors, told me about a time when he was working with one of his cadets the year before I got there. Cadet did something and Sergeant Major Lang was in charge of rifle team. And Sergeant Major Lang had told him he couldn't stay on the team. Was kicking him off. He said the boy got up and said, "You know, there'd have been time back there when my uncle just would have hung you up for that." He said, "Like okay, well, your uncle ain't here so it's time for you to go." (laughs) Interesting times. So but Mom went to college, Dad went to college. But I also recognized as I thought back on that Mom at some time drove up to Jonesboro to get to work on her degree after school, and they had to make sacrifices. And so when Mom asked us to go to Sacred Heart and then said, "You need to go to Spalding," it was really them putting their values about the importance of integration with their own children to what it is they believed. When the March on Washington happened Mom and Dad didn't get to go in '63, but when it happened that second time around they went, because they wanted to be a part of that process. And so I think in some ways I recognized that and kept up with it. But it wasn't like they, you know, they talked about it all the time. It's just who we were and what we did. I didn't tell you, but we grew up on Railroad Street down in Barnesville. And it's just a way of keeping humble and knowing where you came from and what you're doing. WALKER-HARPS:What challenge or challenges did you face when you first -- from the community when you first became superintendent? Because the schools are usually the focal point of the community and of particular interest to businesspeople. JONES:Yeah. WALKER-HARPS:And special challenges or just in general (inaudible). JONES:Well, for the most part it was good. Jesse Bradley, who had been superintendent kind of set me up by when it was time for him to have -- he had a seat on the chamber of commerce, in the Rotary. He put me in Kiwanis. We built a -- we started working on this idea of -- it wasn't the College & Career Academy. It was a different idea. Oh, I know, it was UGA was working with the school system to try to approach this poverty issue. And so with Archways. And so Dr. Bradley put me on that. So that put me in good stead to create relationships. I remember he said, "Curtis, I need for you to join Kiwanis. And we'll pay for your membership." It's like oh, okay. And he -- in order to be fair he then went out to the other people in the senior cabinet and offered them the same opportunity. But I eventually became president of the Kiwanis club here in Griffin. And one of the members was about 90 years old, had been a former I think county commissioner -- county manager. And he was getting married and -- at 90. And he invited me to his house for a party that was going on. Turned out his granddaughter had been one of my students when I was the principal at Griffin High School, and I went over. And Evelyn went with me and at this point now I've been named to be the superintendent. And he came up to me while we were at his house with this celebration and he said, "Curtis I'm just going to tell you now. Never had a president that looked like you before but I'm going to support you." And it was like okay. And I told that to Evelyn. And things I think were okay. I was a member of the chamber, and so they were pretty supportive of me. Bonnie Pfrogner was a -- was I would say a supporter. And so if there was resistance I think it was this. If it turned out I'd done something that they didn't approve of, then I'm not sure that leash was too long for me that was out there. And so they may have been willing to pull back. I'm trying to think. Do I really want to tell you this? WALKER-HARPS:Sure. CAIN:(inaudible). JONES:So at one point when I was superintendent it was time for me to name an assistant superintendent and I had a couple people came to me and said, "Curtis, you have support on both sides of town, north and south. But I don't think this town is ready for two blacks to be superintendent and assistant superintendent. So before you make a recommendation you need to think about what your choice is going to be." That was a reminder to me that things had not progressed as much as we -- as -- maybe as much as I'd thought they had. That was different. But I don't remember. Fundraising kept going as strong as it had been. Anna Burns was on my staff. She was very good. Worked very hard. And in fact it increased. She worked very hard to increase the number of partnerships we had. I was able to name a number of people to be principals of schools. And I didn't -- I only got pushback on one, my very first one. But overall I think Griffin -- I think because of the background and even though I didn't live in Griffin, I think most people thought I did. And I think most people just saw me as a Griffin person from -- for, you know, forever. And so I don't think it was a lot. I cannot say I had any issues. Dick Brooks, who was at First National Bank, was very supportive as well. So I think it went pretty well. WALKER-HARPS:(inaudible). CAIN:(inaudible) Jerry Arkin was supportive too. JONES:Dr. Arkin was very supportive. CAIN:Very supportive. JONES:In fact I didn't know how to use him enough. (laughs) And so were you. To be quite truthful, Art. WALKER-HARPS:Much of that probably, would you agree, came about because of the personality and the people person that Jesse Bradley was and his willingness to take you on and take you in (inaudible). JONES:I would agree with that. I will tell -- here's a story about Dr. Bradley. When I was interviewing to become principal he -- it was just a one-on-one interview. And he said to me, "What kind of principal you want to be? Just a general." And I said, "Dr. Bradley, I just want to be a good principal. I don't want to be a black principal. I want to be a principal who happens to be black that does a good job." And he talked for the next 20 minutes about wanting to be a good superintendent. Not a white superintendent, but a superintendent who happened to be white. We bonded from that moment on. And it was -- I don't know if something was going on with him at that point in time but I will tell you that I do know that some board members ran initially to get rid of Dr. Bradley when he first got there. But all I ever saw him trying to do was what he thought was right. He made hard decisions. Some weren't always popular but he worked hard. WALKER-HARPS:Yeah. I had an issue with him when he first came. But then we became very good friends, very supportive of me and I liked him a lot. And I see him occasionally now. But (inaudible) Curtis. JONES:(laughs) Well, that's because you're not -- people weren't sure what the agenda is that people get hired with or what it is they're trying to accomplish. And if you don't have great communication then people will fill the gaps. But I'll tell you. He was very supportive of me. He even was the very first person through Mike McLemore who asked me if I wanted to become an assistant principal. I went home, told that to Evelyn. She said, "You only been in this for two years, you going to be an assistant principal?" (laughs) Said, "No." And then he encouraged me to go to a conference to learn about how to improve SAT scores. I came back, I briefed them on the plan. We implemented the plan. And I do believe that was another key reason for why they decided to go ahead and let me apply to be principal of the high school. And then I mean truthfully, if I -- as I look back on it, it was that, then assistant superintendent, and then putting me in places so I could develop relationships. So Dr. Bradley I think just wanted to do the best. And truthfully he will tell you he only came here for four years -- for three years. They hired him to come in to clean things up. And then he just stayed. He was good. WALKER-HARPS:(inaudible) you came to the system with little education background (inaudible). JONES:Correct, I'd been in the army for 20 years, and -- but what I think was happening -- well, you got to understand now. Dr. Bradley came from the prison system. WALKER-HARPS:(inaudible). JONES:(laughs) And so the idea is that you're looking for leaders. WALKER-HARPS:Clean things up is (inaudible) about. Yeah (inaudible) system. BAUSKE:(inaudible) army. JONES:Well, and I did have somebody come back and tell me when my time was up to leave Griffin, they said, "Okay, we've had Bradley and now we've had you. Now we need a real educator." I said, "Okay." I thought we did pretty good. We made some improvements while I was here, and I'm very proud of the time and the people that worked with me. But -- and I'll be honest. James Westbury, who was the board president when I left, said, "Curtis, we trained you well. Now you're leaving us." And I had to apologize for that. But I'll be quite honest, they did train me well, gave me a lot of opportunities. And I feel very fortunate. I feel very fortunate to have been in Griffin too. And I say that. Very proud of what's happened the 18 years that I was here. For me it's the American dream to be quite truthful, 20 years in the army, and now 20 years in education. WALKER-HARPS:Well, we're proud of you. America is. I am. I'm not always agreeing, but we manage to coexist. So but we are proud and thankful. Your contribution that you made to this community. JONES:Well, appreciate it. WALKER-HARPS:Wish you well. And there's no point in wishing you well in Macon because you're already doing so well that we -- JONES:Well -- WALKER-HARPS:-- just need to commend you on how well you have been received and the progress that you've been able to make. JONES:We appreciate it. But again I'm really proud of the work that we did here in Griffin. And the people who were principals, assistant principals. And, you know, and I'll be remiss if I didn't say something about my wife who was a -- truthfully an inspiration. I used to go home and say, "Evelyn, what is this stuff? Evelyn, what is this?" She was a teacher at Anne Street for a little while. Then she moved to Jordan Hill only for a couple weeks. Went on over to Orrs. Then became a gifted one teacher here in the system. And then an assistant principal at Anne Street again. Became the principal at Anne Street. And now she's at Orrs. But she's the true educator. Evelyn has worked in Department of Defense schools, Fairfax County, she just solves so much. And has been able to contribute so much. And truthfully if I ever was successful in any ways while I was here, a large part of that would be because when I was about to do something Evelyn would say, "What are you doing?" (laughs) And I would explain some of it and she'd say, "Well, all right, now, you know what you're doing." And just gave me reason to think. So I have to thank her as well. WALKER-HARPS:Evelyn was always destined to be an educator. When she -- eighth grade, and my student, you could see the potential of that girl. JONES:Well, I truly admit that she's not as smart as I am. Well, she's not. I married her. (laughs) WALKER-HARPS:Oh, okay, I think that's (inaudible) that is a wrap-up. So again we say thank you for taking time and the interest to come and share with us on this project. JONES:Thank you. WALKER-HARPS:Appreciate it. JONES:I appreciate it. CAIN:(inaudible). JONES:Thank you, sir. I didn't recognize you, sir. END OF AUDIO FILE
Resources may be used under the guidelines described by the U.S. Copyright Office in Section 107, Title 17, United States Code (Fair use). Parties interested in production or commercial use of the resources should contact the Russell Library for a fee schedule.
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purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL418GAA/findingaid
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Griffin, Georgia
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66 minutes
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https://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL418GAA-016/ohms
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Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
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Interview with Curtis Jones, June 27, 2017
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RBRL418GAA-016
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Curtis Jones
Art Cain
Jewel Walker-Harps
Ellen Bauske
Rich Braman
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audio
oral histories
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2017-06-27
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sound
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Griffin, Georgia
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Discrimination
School integration
Military education
United States--Veterans
African American veterans
United States. Army--Officers
Education
Description
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Curtis Jones grew up in Griffin, Georgia during segregation. As a child, he was one of the first students to integrate into Sacred Heart Elementary and later was one of the first to integrate into Griffin High School. Jones attended West Point Military Academy before he served in the army as an infantry officer, a position he held for 20 years. After retiring from the army, Jones became the first African American superintendent of the Griffin School system. In this interview, Jones talks about his school experience, military and educational career, and he discusses integration and discrimination.
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Griffin African American Oral History Project
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Georgia--History, Local
African Americans--History
Georgia--Communities
Description
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The Griffin African American Oral History Project is a collaboration between the Griffin Branch NAACP, the Griffin Campus Library of the University of Georgia, and the Richard B. Russell Library. The seed was planted in the meetings of the Educational Prosperity Initiative which is also chaired by the president of the Griffin Branch NAACP, Jewel Walker-Harps. Collaborators on the project include: Griffin Housing Authority; Spalding County Collaborative; Fairmont Alumni Association; University of Georgia—Athens and Griffin campuses; and the Educational Prosperity Initiative, which is an affiliate of the Spalding County Collaborative and others. Interviewers on the project include: John Cruickshank, librarian at UGA-Griffin Campus Library; Jewel Walker-Harps, President of the Griffin, GA Branch of the NAACP; Art Cain, coordinator of Continuing Education for UGA-Griffin; Be-Atrice Cunningham, project manager for College of Agricultural and Environmental Science for Griffin; and Ellen Bauske, senior public service associate at the Georgia Center for Urban Agriculture in Griffin. Rich Braman was the sound engineer for this project. <br />The Griffin African American Oral History Project intends to document the experiences of people who lived in Fairmont Community in Griffin, Georgia during the civil rights era and through its transformation to the present day.<br /><br />All interviews in this collection have been indexed in OHMS.
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Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
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Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
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2015-2018
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Oral histories
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RBRL418GAA
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Griffin, Georgia
Oral History
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5.4 Interview with Kenda Suzette Fuller-Woodard, December 13, 2017 RBRL418GAA-017 RBRL418GAA Griffin African American Oral History Project Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies, University of Georgia Kenda Suzette Fuller-Woodard Art Cain Jewel Walker-Harps George Braman 0 Kaltura audio < ; iframe id=" ; kaltura_player" ; src=" ; https://cdnapisec.kaltura.com/p/1727411/sp/172741100/embedIframeJs/uiconf_id/26879422/partner_id/1727411?iframeembed=true& ; playerId=kaltura_player& ; entry_id=1_9jovdvop& ; flashvars[localizationCode]=en& ; flashvars[leadWithHTML5]=true& ; flashvars[sideBarContainer.plugin]=true& ; flashvars[sideBarContainer.position]=left& ; flashvars[sideBarContainer.clickToClose]=true& ; flashvars[chapters.plugin]=true& ; flashvars[chapters.layout]=vertical& ; flashvars[chapters.thumbnailRotator]=false& ; flashvars[streamSelector.plugin]=true& ; flashvars[EmbedPlayer.SpinnerTarget]=videoHolder& ; flashvars[dualScreen.plugin]=true& ; flashvars[Kaltura.addCrossoriginToIframe]=true& ; & ; wid=1_aayq4o1g" ; width=" ; 400" ; height=" ; 285" ; allowfullscreen webkitallowfullscreen mozAllowFullScreen allow=" ; autoplay * ; fullscreen * ; encrypted-media *" ; sandbox=" ; allow-forms allow-same-origin allow-scripts allow-top-navigation allow-pointer-lock allow-popups allow-modals allow-orientation-lock allow-popups-to-escape-sandbox allow-presentation allow-top-navigation-by-user-activation" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; title=" ; Kaltura Player" ; > ; < ; /iframe> ; 39 Fairmount, Georgia community / Early education Okay, well actually, this journey... Fuller-Woodard talks about growing up in the Fairmount community of Georgia. She describes the demographic of her childhood community, as many of the community members were educators. Fuller-Woodard mentions her experience graduating from North-Side Elementary School. Columbus Fuller ; Dave Franklin Fuller ; Fairmount, Georgia ; Margaret Fuller ; Moore Elementary School ; North-Side Elementary School 418 Church / Dave Franklin Fuller We went to church every Sunday... Fuller-Woodard talks about the spiritual nature of her community's church. Fuller-Woodard describes how her family, the Fullers, had owned a section of the town in Fairmount Georgia, owned by her great grandfather Dave Franklin Fuller during the 1960's. Fuller-Woodard talks about the impact of church on her upbringing. church ; Dave Franklin Fuller ; New Hope Baptist Church 804 Griffin, Georgia community At the age of fifteen... Fuller-Woodard talks about her great-grandfather David Franklin's family. Fuller-Woodard recalls watching the Fairmount High School band and football games. Fuller-Woodard emphasizes the sense of community in Griffin, Georgia and talks about her earliest memories of segregation. community ; Fairmount, High School ; Griffin, Georgia ; James Mancon 1250 African American businesses in Griffin, Georgia But I can say that I can... Fuller-Woodard relates her experience being one of the only black students in her educational community. Fuller-Woodard recalls some of the black businesses around the Griffin community during the 1960's. Fuller-Woodard talks about her uncle's participation in Civil Rights. American Legion ; Atlanta Life ; Horris Fuller Jr. ; National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP) ; Snow's Rib Shack 1667 Simmons's Grocery I know the Simmons... Fuller-Woodard talks about her family's account, which they used to purchase groceries from Simmons's Grocery. Fuller-Woodard describes more of the African American businesses around Griffin, Georgia. Bamboo Hut ; Benjamin Dey ; Griffin, Georgia ; Simmons's Grocery ; Spalding Undertaker 2114 Fairmount recreation center And my aunt Lucy Kate worked there... Fuller-Woodard describes her experiences at the Fullar-Woodard Nursery School and the Fairmount Recreation Center. She recalls the filling in of the segregated community pools prior to the opening of an integrated community center. Fuller-Woodard talks about her wish for a better educational community in Griffin, Georgia. E.G. Bowdin Nursery School ; Fairmount Housing Authority ; Fairmount Recreation Center 2589 Griffin community With the exception of Reverend... Fuller-Woodard lists the churches surrounding her community in Griffin, Georgia. Fuller-Woodard talks about how the substandard housing among other factors has led to the disintegration of Griffin. Fuller-Woodard describes her community as of present. community ; Griffin, Georgia Oral history No transcript. Resources may be used under the guidelines described by the U.S. Copyright Office in Section 107, Title 17, United States Code (Fair use). Parties interested in production or commercial use of the resources should contact the Russell Library for a fee schedule. audio 0 purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL418GAA/findingaid
Repository
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Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
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s
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Title
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Interview with Kenda Suzette Fuller-Woodard, December 13, 2017
Identifier
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RBRL418GAA-017
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Kenda Suzette Fuller-Woodard
Art Cain
Jewel Walker-Harps
Rich Braman
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audio
Subject
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Religion
African American business enterprises
Discrimination
Description
An account of the resource
Kenda Suzette Fuller-Woodard was born in 1959, and grew up in the community of Fairmont, Georgia. In this interview, Fuller-Woodard discusses living in Griffin, Georgia during the 1960s and 70s. Fuller-Woodard touches on a variety of subjects including her childhood community, Fairmont High School, the impact of religion on her upbringing, segregation in her community, local businesses, and the Griffin community.
OHMS
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Griffin African American Oral History Project
Subject
The topic of the resource
Georgia--History, Local
African Americans--History
Georgia--Communities
Description
An account of the resource
The Griffin African American Oral History Project is a collaboration between the Griffin Branch NAACP, the Griffin Campus Library of the University of Georgia, and the Richard B. Russell Library. The seed was planted in the meetings of the Educational Prosperity Initiative which is also chaired by the president of the Griffin Branch NAACP, Jewel Walker-Harps. Collaborators on the project include: Griffin Housing Authority; Spalding County Collaborative; Fairmont Alumni Association; University of Georgia—Athens and Griffin campuses; and the Educational Prosperity Initiative, which is an affiliate of the Spalding County Collaborative and others. Interviewers on the project include: John Cruickshank, librarian at UGA-Griffin Campus Library; Jewel Walker-Harps, President of the Griffin, GA Branch of the NAACP; Art Cain, coordinator of Continuing Education for UGA-Griffin; Be-Atrice Cunningham, project manager for College of Agricultural and Environmental Science for Griffin; and Ellen Bauske, senior public service associate at the Georgia Center for Urban Agriculture in Griffin. Rich Braman was the sound engineer for this project. <br />The Griffin African American Oral History Project intends to document the experiences of people who lived in Fairmont Community in Griffin, Georgia during the civil rights era and through its transformation to the present day.<br /><br />All interviews in this collection have been indexed in OHMS.
Creator
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Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Publisher
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Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Date
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2015-2018
Rights
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http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
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Oral histories
Identifier
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RBRL418GAA
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Griffin, Georgia
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
OHMS Object Text
Contains OHMS index and/or transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable.
5.4
Interview with Charlotte Eady, May 11, 2018
RBRL418GAA-018
RBRL418GAA
Griffin African American Oral History Project
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies, University of Georgia
Charlotte Eady
John Cruickshank
Art Cain
Jewell Walker-Harps
Be-Atrice Cunningham
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Kaltura
audio
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46
Growing up in Griffin, Georgia
Charlotte, would you give us a little...
Eady talks about her childhood growing up in Blackshear, Georgia. Eady states that her parents had little education, an aspect which she claims was integral to her career choice as a qualitative researcher of education. Eady explains her research and talks about her work as an associate professor of education leadership at Jacksonville State University. Eady details the integration history of Blackshear, Georgia, and her participation in it.
Griffin, Georgia;Jacksonville State University;research;Sylvania, Georgia;University, Georgia
408
Attending Blackshear High School
It was a life-changing experience...
Eady recalls that in being one of the three black students at Blackshear High School (previously all-white school), she experienced a new level of hostility from both teachers and students. Eady shares how the majority of her teachers were unsupportive of her academics and her decision to attend Blackshear. Eady talks about how her counselor's academic encouragement led her to receive full tuition and board scholarship from the University of Georgia.
Blackshear High School;education;University of Georgia
774
C.W Daniels
We were actually recruited to Griffin...
Eady explains her decision to work in Griffin, Georgia, as there were many job opportunities for both her and her husband. Eady recalls how she came to interview C.W. Daniels, a well-known member of the Griffin, Georgia Community. Eady talks about C.W Daniels's work as the principal of an African American school.
Camilla, Georgia;Griffin, Georgia;Mount Zion Baptist Church;Norma Greenwood
1184
C.W Daniels (cont.)
For the most part, before the schools were integrated...
Eady explains how C.W Daniels managed his position as the school system administrator of Griffin. Eady recalls that Daniels maintained prestige as a result of his benevolent actions within the community. Eady explains how Daniels was integral in maintaining the school's functions. Eady recalls the ways in which Daniels faced prejudice while working as the supervisor of the newly segregated schools.
C.W Daniels;education;Griffin, Georgia;segregation
1576
Inequality in education
So he was able to...
Eady describes the ways in which C.W Daniels maintained composure and authority as the the supervisor of a recently integrated Griffin High School. Eady explains how Daniels handled a particular incident, in which a protest took place at the school. Eady talks about Daniels resourcefulness in offsetting the effect of a lack in resources in Griffin's African American educational community.
C.W Daniels;education;Griffin High School;protest;segregation
1996
C.W Daniels (cont.) / Mt. Zion Baptist Church
So our oldest son had to transfer from...
Eady shares the ways in which C.W Daniels would help the community by getting children involved in educational opportunities around the area. Eady talks about the history of Griffin's Mount Zion Baptist Church.
D.W. Daniels;education;Griffin, Georgia
2466
Mt. Zion Baptist Church (cont.)
They moved then...
Eady relates how segregation led to the creation of the Griffin Mount Zion Church. Eady explains that the church eventually burned down and was rebuilt in its most recent location. Eady emphasizes Mount Zion's importance as the center of community activities. Eady describes C.W Daniels as the "liaison" between the black and white population of Griffin.
Griffin, Georgia;Mt. Zion Baptist Church
2894
Integration and inequalities
Cabin Creek was a private school...
Eady talks about the history of Cabin Creek as an African American private school. Eady opines how integration came as a challenge for many of the black students living in Griffin. Eady talks about her experience with integration, and how she was angry after she realized the inequalities of her previous education at an all-black school. Eady shares how she later appreciated the adaptability of her teachers in their abilities to teach with limited resources.
Blackshire High School;Cabin Creek (private school);Cabin Creek Baptist Association
3328
Integration and the group identity
And, my band director would have to...
Eady explains that while at Blackshire High School, a majority-white school, she was repeatedly discriminated against by both teachers and students. Eady recalls how integration challenged the sense of identity of both the black and white students and how each group dealt with this challenge.
band;Blackshire High School;education;Griffin, Georgia
3729
Concluding thoughts
I'm so proud to say that there was a group...
Eady recalls the process of renovating a Griffin, Georgia all-black school into a community center. Eady relates her observation that individuals reacted differently to the process of integration.
community center;education;Griffin Georgia
Oral history
rbrl418gaa-018_eady JOHN CRUICKSHANK:Okay, good afternoon, I'm John Cruickshank. I'm the librarian here at University of Georgia Griffin Campus. And today I have other people here who are interviewing with me. We're interviewing Charlotte King Eady. And I have with me today -- let's just go around the table and introduce ourselves. ART CAIN:Okay. My name is Art Cain. I'm in the Office of Continuing Education here at the University of Georgia Griffin. JEWEL WALKER-HARPS:I'm Jewel Walker-Harps, president of the Griffin branch of NAACP. BE-ATRICE CUNNINGHAM:My name is Be-Atrice Cunningham, I'm in the Office of the Assistant Provost and Campus Director at the Griffin Campus. CRUICKSHANK:And thank you. And today we're interviewing Charlotte King Eady. Charlotte, could you give us a little background information about yourself? CHARLOTTE EADY:(laughs) I am a native of Blackshear, Georgia, population 3,000. Maybe 3,010. I am a graduate of Albany State University. Was college when I was there. Of -- also of Georgia State, Georgia Southwestern, and the University of Georgia. So I've lived in Georgia, I'm a native Georgian, I've lived here all my life, I've never really wanted to go anywhere else. My parents were not well educated, I need to say that. My dad had a third grade education, taught himself to read Plato and Aristotle to me as a kid, and I had no idea what it was about. But I was listening because it was my dad's voice. And my mother was an LPN. So I have a great respect for education and history. And the history especially of my family and of African American families throughout the state of Georgia. I'm that proponent that I believe in telling our story ourselves. Because we have a different perspective if you've lived it. And so I'm a qualitative researcher. And my research interest and agenda is -- has been rural education. That because I came up in a rural community, and for most part have lived in rural communities most of my life. I'm in Griffin because my husband wanted to pursue his doctorate at Clark Atlanta University. So we moved to Griffin, we didn't want to go to Atlanta, because we have three children, and one grandson, and we did not want to raise our children in a large city, we wanted to raise our children in a city that was not so small but not large, not rural, but not really urban. And Griffin fit that bill. He is from Camilla, Georgia. I taught in Southwest Georgia much of my career, in Moultrie, Georgia, Pelham, Georgia, Camilla. And then we -- when we came here I continued to teach until I retired in 2003. After retirement -- my husband had retired before I did. And he went to Jacksonville State University over in Jacksonville, Alabama. A friend of ours recruited him and he recruited me. And so I worked over there as well. He worked 10 years there. I worked eight years there, retired as an associate professor of educational leadership in the department of professional studies at Jacksonville State. And you may know I like Jacksonville pretty well, because it's a small town. It's a very small town. It's more students in the -- at the university than it is people in the town. So it did afford me the opportunity to continue some of my research on rural schools, and I've done some publications in rural education. Actually the first publication I did was in the Rural Educator, because I learned -- I had met Patti Chance and she's the editor of that journal. So most of my publication has been in that. My dissertation was also concerning evaluation of teachers in rural schools, middle schools, using what was then the A Plus Education Act under Governor Roy Barnes. And I did most of my fieldwork in Bainbridge, Georgia. I did some in Camilla, and I did some in Jackson. So I got a different perspective from different parts of the state. I've lived also in another rural town, Sylvania, Georgia, which is near Statesboro. If you tell me you know Sylvania, I'd ask you the same question, why would you know Sylvania, but okay. (laughs) My grandparents lived there and I lived with them for a time. My grandfather was a farmer. So I got to experience that life as well. So everywhere I go -- I've been abroad and people would ask me, "So where are you from?" And I say, "Blackshear." And they say, "Savannah?" I say, "Blackshear." They say, "Atlanta?" "Blackshear." "Macon?" (laughs) And I would have to really give a geography lesson to let them know where I'm from. So I have a great affinity for small towns and my little small town especially. I don't usually tell people this, but you probably need to know. In Blackshear the schools were not integrated until 1971. I attended Blackshear High School, which was at one time all-white, in 1966, under what the HEW, Health, Education, and Welfare Department, back in the day had a plan called freedom of choice. And I chose to go there. Was one of three African Americans in my graduating class. And that in itself was a life-changing experience. So it was not like we were wanted there. We were not. And so I had that experience and left there to go to Albany State. CUNNINGHAM:Can you expound on that? You mentioned that that was a once-in-a-lifetime experience. A life-changing experience (inaudible). EADY:It was a life-changing experience. I had never experienced that type of hostility even though I grew up in a small town where it certainly was stratified. But I was in my neighborhood and so I felt safe. And I was certainly loved, well loved, in my neighborhood. The funny thing was my parents were much older than most of my contemporaries' parents. So I was the only kid on two or three blocks of my street for many many years. So I was everybody's child. And that's how small towns used to be. And I was safe in that neighborhood and I, you know, I was confident in that neighborhood. And to go to an environment where even the teachers were hostile was really different. My father died when I was 10. Had my father been living I probably would not have done that. But my mother was of the opinion that she should let me make my own choices. And she supported me in that choice. I probably could not have done that without her help, because I was used to being a top student, just -- and I studied hard, but my teachers were not supportive, and that made it even harder. I had one teacher who was very supportive of me. And we're still friends today after 50 years. And -- but she was different for her time. And she was very courageous. And I was a musician. Actually my undergraduate degree is in music education. And so I was in the band. And everybody quit the band when I got in the band. But I will say for my band director that he said, "Well, if you don't want to play, music is music. Notes are notes. And they don't have a color but black. (sucks teeth) And if you don't want to play you just don't want to play, go wherever you want to go, do whatever you want to do." And they came back, because he stood up for that. So I -- that was an experience. It was a life-changing experience. Number one, I had been -- at my segregated school I played the flute. I was the best flute player there. Why was I the best flute player there? I was the only flute player there. (laughs) WALKER-HARPS:(inaudible). EADY:So I got an opportunity to play with some students that were -- I had to compete with. And -- because I had not competed before. I was pretty good but there were a whole lot of people that were better. And also through going to Blackshear High School I had a counselor that was principled. I won't say he was all in love and liking anything with me or any of the other students for that matter but he was very principled. So he had me to apply for every scholarship in the world, and I got accepted to Berry College, the University of Georgia, every institution in the state of Georgia, because he made me apply. And there was at that time a teacher scholarship where you could receive a scholarship, would pay your tuition, room, and board. And for every thousand dollars that they paid for you, you would have to work one year in the state of Georgia. Having said that, I'm a Georgian through and through, I wasn't going anywhere, and so I took that scholarship. And it paid my way through college. My widowed mother did not have to pay anything. My church paid all of my little incidentals and I just -- I had a full ride. But it was because of that counselor. I never would have known that that even existed. And he was very generous in letting me know that. And I got a chance to tell him thank you for that. Because it really did change my life. I didn't fall back on teaching. I intended to be a teacher. Because I looked up to those teachers that were in my community that were outstanding educators and outstanding people. So that was the thing for me to do. CAIN:Did you have brothers and sisters? Do you have brothers and sisters? EADY:I have -- had four brothers. I have three surviving brothers and one sister. My oldest brother is old enough to be my dad. My parents -- I often say my parents had two sets of children, and I'm the second set. So by the time I was going to Blackshear High, actually through most of my schooling, they were gone. They were either in the military or in college. So they were gone and I was just there by myself with my mom. So yeah, I do have siblings. CAIN:Were there other African Americans who integrated Blackshear High School with you? EADY:Yes, yes, yes. As a matter of fact my best friend went -- she and her sister went to Blackshear High in 1965 and then -- but she was in my graduating class. And I went in 1966 and another friend, we're still very very close. We've been friends for over 50 years. So we're very very close. We encountered some different kind of things together so -- CAIN:Well, I was very curious about how you all selected Griffin. I mean you mentioned that. And you mentioned that your husband was going to Atlanta University. You had a lot of choice in and around Atlanta metro of small towns but you all chose Griffin, why was that? EADY:We were actually recruited to Griffin. Reginald McBride was the principal of Fourth Ward Elementary School. And he has ties in Camilla. His -- actually his -- I think it's his great-grandfather was the founder -- one of the founders of the church that we were members of in Camilla. His name is on the cornerstone. And so Reginald was in Camilla and he found out that we were looking to move and so he recruited both of us to come to Griffin. He hired me at Fourth Ward. And my husband was interviewed at I think it was Kelsey. And he -- someone else was chosen for the job. And our friend Norm Greenwood from Lamar County interviewed him. And he worked there. She hired him. He worked there for seven years at Lamar County Middle School before he came to Griffin High School. And then finally to Anne Street Elementary School as the principal. So that's why we chose Griffin. I mean it was just like a, you know, we just threw it out there and say, "Okay, let's find out where we want to live." We did some research now. We didn't come just blind. We did some research. WALKER-HARPS:What was your relationship with C. W. Daniels and why did you interview him? EADY:Well, I will call him Deacon Daniels because that's what I call him all the time. WALKER-HARPS:Okay. That's fine, that's fine. EADY:He was that kind of man anyway. You gave him some kind of title because he was just that man. He was a member. He was a deacon at my church, Mount Zion Baptist Church, and I was going over to the campus, I went -- I did all my degree in Athens. I only took -- I think I got to take couple of classes over in Fayetteville and a couple in Lawrenceville which is on the other side of the world so that may have been in Athens. And I was taking the first -- I think it was the first qualitative interviewing course that I did take, because I took more than what was required, because it was just so interesting. And I needed a guinea pig. And I had already kind of interviewed my godfather, who lived in Blackshear, who was so much like Deacon Daniels. And I asked him if I could interview him, Deacon Daniels, and he said, "Sure, come right on." So we had a series of -- because we talked all the time. And we had a series of conversations. And that's why. I chose him, but he allowed me to. CAIN:So I would also ask you to give us a little bit of background if you know it on C. W. Daniels and why he was important in this community. EADY:Well, I brought with me an article that I submitted. No. I did a presentation on this one. And the name of the article is "My Soul Looked Back in Wonder: The Supervisory Styles and Dispositions of Two African American Principals of Segregated Schools in Georgia." And I started this, and this is why -- this is what -- this was his importance. In the African American community, and I found this to be true in Blackshear as well as in Griffin as well as in Camilla and other small African American and rural communities, the principal of the school was usually called professor. He wasn't credentialed as a professor. He wasn't what we call full of air professor, full professor. He was respected in the community as that person being knowledgeable. For a time in the African American community, the principal of the school was probably the most educated person in the community. The most literate in the community also, if not educated formally. So he was called professor. Well, Deacon Daniels was Professor Daniels. And he was a very dignified man. One of the most well organized people I have ever met, and I'm a pretty organized person myself. He impressed me. And I know that he did this in the school system, because -- even though I wasn't there -- that he was a man of his word. He would do what he said he would do no matter how hard it was. He kept up with everything. He had a chronology of all of the sermons that Pastor Lacy had preached from 1977 until he died. And so he kept up with things. In this community as far as the schools were concerned, I wasn't here, but I got from him, and he didn't tell me this, but I got from him and other people just a feeling of that he was well respected. And he was quite competent. So he took some hits during -- and he told me about that. During the time of segregation. But he took them with grace and that is part of his importance in this community. I think that he was kind of a bridge over troubled water. That he helped to communicate the importance of working together in the schools. I had something here. Let me see. I have it. This is all this hot air (inaudible) let's see. He was telling me that he was the principal of Fairmont. He had pictures and all kinds of artifacts. I don't know what happened to them. But he showed them to me. That for the most part before the schools were integrated the superintendent, whoever that was, and I don't know who it was, actually just let him run the school just like he wanted to run it. And so I said in this particular writing that it was just like he was just make (break in audio) these days, or they are not allowed to make. He had an autonomy that was good, and it was not so good. So he learned to manage that, and managed it in a way that was beneficial to the students and the teachers and all involved. His style -- and he and my -- Professor Sersan my godfather had the same type of style. He had high moral character. One of the things that I noticed about him when I interviewed him, how much he loved his wife. And that gave me much respect for him. He really loved his wife. They'd been married a long time. And he really loved his wife. So he had high moral character. Very resilient. He could snap back in a minute. You know, he didn't -- you didn't get him down. He just sat down, prayed about it, figured out how to get back to where he needed to be. Had a very positive relationship with the community. And he had very high expectations of his students and of the teachers (inaudible) I was not his student, I was not under his supervision. When I was getting that last degree, he had very high expectations of me. And he communicated that to me. (laughs) He just said, "I know you'll do a good job. Now do you have thus and so done? Or have you done this? And don't wait until the last minute?" And -- which I'm not that person. But all I said was yes, sir. Because he was that person that you would do that to. So that was one of the things I think that -- of his importance. Another thing that I found to be true in both communities and in Griffin was the African American principal of the segregated schools did everything. Deacon Daniels told me, said he would coach basketball if he had to. He said he couldn't find a chemistry teacher one time so he taught chemistry. The best he could. Whatever he -- that would need to be done, he did it. He fixed the windows. He mopped. He did all kinds of whatever needed to be done, he did it. And because you're surprised, I'll also tell you that I started going to school at five, but my godfather was the principal of a one-room schoolhouse. And he took me to school with him when I was three. They were babysitter. And he made a fire in the stove. He mopped. He painted. He wired the building. So they did what they had to do. And sometimes it was outside of that that they were prepared to do. So he -- I have here that Deacon Daniels told me, said -- and I was really surprised at this. He said, "I tried to coach basketball because the school couldn't afford a coach. I tried to teach chemistry." So that his students would have -- so that the students would have some exposure to chemistry. He said whenever he couldn't find a teacher he just did it himself. So that was double work for him as well because he said the prep time -- what he told me, he said the prep time for teaching something that you know very little about was just intense. So he had to do a lot of research on that. So I think that was his importance to this educational community. CAIN:(inaudible) do you know a timeframe he was principal? In other words what years? EADY:I don't -- I have -- WALKER-HARPS:He was principal in 1961 I know. Because I came in 1961. But now how long had he been principal prior to 1961 I do not know. And he remained principal until the schools no longer existed a Fairmont. So (inaudible). EADY:He told me it was in the -- I was a kid when he became principal I know. I have that in my transcripts because I did ask him that question. But when he -- when Fairmont and whatever, Griffin High or whatever school it was, did finally integrate, he became an administrative in the central -- administrator -- central office administrator. CAIN:Yeah, and that brings me to one thing that you said was that he was a bridge over some troubled waters. And I know there was a transition period from going to an integrated kind of setting to -- excuse me. From a segregated kind of setting to an integrated setting. And I know (inaudible) from what I understand here in Griffin, it was smoother than a lot of places. However, did he give you any specific insight into what he had to deal with, what he had to endure during that transition period? EADY:Yes. Some of it was disrespectful, that the superintendent was not always respectful to him. He had a way of handling that. For instance when he was the principal he said the superintendent once -- one of the examples he gave me was that the superintendent came to the school and told him that he didn't know how to evaluate teachers. He said, "This is what you need to do. You need to walk down the hall and peep in the door. You don't have to go in everybody's room, just peep in the door." And he said he told the superintendent, "Okay. I'll do that." Knowing full well he was not going to. Because he felt that that was disrespectful. But to keep from telling a lie he peeped in the door before he walked in the door. (laughs) So he was able to -- that's a part of that resilience. He was able to I guess communicate to the teachers that it would work if they wanted it to work. And if they worked at it. And that is -- I think that is what he told me that he did. And this is, you know, this is secondhand for me because I wasn't here but yeah, I would think so. CRUICKSHANK:I remember reading in the Griffin Daily News back in I think it was '73. There was a walkout I think, a protest, at Fairmont High. And I guess the students at Fairmont, they marched on Griffin High I think. And I remember reading something about Professor Daniels and how he handled it. From what I remember it was very -- it was a really tricky situation. Did he share with you any of how he dealt with situations like that? EADY:Well, he called that between a rock and a hard place. Because he understood the students' feelings on that, he understood them. But at the same time he was a man that followed rules. And so there were things that he had to I guess say and do that communicated to the students that you still have to do this. (laughs) You walk out, you make this protest. This is still going to happen. And so that's all I got from him about that is that it was just -- it was a dilemma. It was a tricky situation. WALKER-HARPS:Would you describe him as being conciliatory? EADY:Somewhat. Because he was a man of grace. And courage. He said he knew it was going to happen. I mean, you know, so since he knew it was going to happen, you couldn't stop it from happening. Because I -- my understanding from him is that the students at Fairmont did not want to integrate. And so he was saying to them, "This is going to be the way of the world. You can make it hard or you can make it easy." So I guess in that sense yes. WALKER-HARPS:His -- do you think that his spiritual background had something to do? Because I know that there were many challenges for him. And the inequities that we saw in the resources and the other activities that did not happen at Fairmont. We were happy, but we were also inadequate in many areas. And I'm sure he had to realize that as the leader. So I'm wondering if he had any encounters with the system. Not just the superintendent. But with the school board. In terms of what he believed should be the case and what the needs were at Fairmont compared to what they were at Griffin High. Did he go into that? Now know -- remembering him, I'm not sure he would have gone into that in detail. I'm thinking he would not have. But did he? EADY:He did not. And I didn't ask him. But in our conversations -- not in our interviews. Because see, I saw him all the time. And I'll say I was one of his younger friends. And so we had lots of talks together. He was kind of -- he was my coach so to speak. He knew that the faculty knew and the students knew that they were lacking in things and in resources. And he -- his philosophy was do the best you can with what you have. Until you get better. And so essentially that's what he did. And I guess that's what he communicated to his students and faculty. Which is -- was not new to me. Because I've been in that same situations where my principal communicated the same thing. First new book I had I was 16 years old. We got all the old books. So and I, you know, I was going all through it, it smelled good. (laughs) WALKER-HARPS:He was the -- Mr. Daniels was somewhat a rock at Mount Zion. EADY:Oh. His spiritual background is -- can -- is without question. He was a rock at Mount Zion. He did finances. He could keep up with every penny Mount Zion had down to the penny. And he was a man that did -- he did speak his mind. But he was not combative. He was not combative. He -- it was still grace. It was still grace. And he was a very independent person also. And even as he aged we really -- I really started seeing him a little bit more because he couldn't get out as much. But he was a rock at the church, a very spiritual person, believed in walking a Christian walk, he didn't talk a Christian talk. He did what Christians do. And some of the things that he did people will never know because he never told them. Some of the charitable deeds that he performed he would never tell anybody because he believed you do your alms in private. And you're thanked for them by God. So he, you know, he was a rock at Mount Zion. And that did influence the way he treated people. Both in the schools and out of the schools I believe. WALKER-HARPS:I remember him being a transporter of those persons who needed to travel. I didn't know that until he died. How much he committed himself to -- for instance to the elderly and to persons with illnesses who need to get to Atlanta or Augusta or wherever they might need to go. And could not afford. Did not have transportation. He was always available. Even though he had been a principal of the school he was it didn't matter where it was if there was a need, he was willing to meet that need. EADY:He was -- when we moved here we had three children. Our oldest son was 16 and our youngest was 6 and our daughter was 10. So our oldest son had to transfer from one high school to another, which was difficult. It was a difficult transition. He was in eleventh grade. But Deacon Daniels really just took him and worked with him and made sure that he got some experiences here that he would not have gotten in Camilla. We provided as parents experiences. But we were not so conceited to think that we were his only village. So Deacon Daniels made sure he nominated him to go to Boys State. He did oratorical contests with the American Legion. He -- everything -- and the thing about him, Deacon Daniels, doing is that is my husband was in Lamar County, and I thought I was spread so thin you could see through me. He would come pick him up from school. He would go to Griffin High and pick our oldest son up and take him to whatever meetings and whatever thing that needed to be done or he thought that Lee, we called him Lee, would profit from and benefit from. That without our solicitation. He just asked us, "Is it okay?" And if you -- WALKER-HARPS:Many children were able to go to -- what is it? Boys -- EADY:Boys State. WALKER-HARPS:Boys State and Girls State. Because of C. W. Daniels. And I don't know how it stands now but he didn't just ask them to go. He pursued them. He contacted parents and insisted if he knew that they were capable of doing it. He insisted. I had a granddaughter who participated in it because she would not have had it not been for C. W. Daniels. And she would not have performed as well as she did. And I remember specifically, oh, he was a stickler for details. If he said 11 minutes or 5 minutes, howsoever many minutes it's supposed to be. Or how so many words, no matter what the details were supposed to have been, that's what they were to be. And I remember she had to redo it because she had gone over just a word or two. But it didn't matter. If it's not exactly what was asked then you did it over. And you did it the way that you were supposed to do it. EADY:And for us, being new to the community, if you're a parent, you know you don't trust your kids with everybody. No doubt. We had no doubt that we could trust our son with him. He was a good example. He was -- responsible doesn't even start to describe him. We knew that if he said, "I'm taking Lee to thus and so place. I'll bring him back at this time," set your clock. He'd have him back. So and he would pick him up from school like once a week. And work with him on the oratorical. Lee is a historian now. And he -- he's a history teacher. And he started him doing history. Different writings and essays and all those types of things. He was just -- he was a rock in this community. WALKER-HARPS:Tell us a little bit about -- excuse me. About Mount Zion and its early history that you're free to share. EADY:Well, Mount Zion is the mother church of the African American churches in the city of Griffin. It actually started in the 1850s, late 1850s. In the balcony of First Baptist Church of Griffin. In eight -- in the -- during the -- (laughs) war that emancipated the slaves, the -- most of the white men were gone to war. So that left the women and children. White women and children in the church. And the slaves. So at that time they asked the slaves to stop worshipping in the balcony because they actually outnumbered the other members. The slaves were members of First Baptist. They were baptized. They were members. They were official members of First Baptist. So then they went to the basement. After the war ended, in 1867 they asked that they vacate the basement. And at that time Mount Zion moved to what was then New Orleans and Solomon Street. Now that area is 9th Street. But it was truncated. New Orleans Street was truncated to go on the south side of Taylor Street, but used to be it was all the way on even on the north side of Taylor Street was New Orleans Street. And they bought a lot there. Actually several other churches were established during that same time. You know, I've been in the deed office like they know my name, so I've seen the other churches as well. Some of the other African American churches. And Mount Zion actually started. They had a pastor that I've not been able to identify. His name was the Reverend Owens, that's all I can get. Reverend Owens may have been African American and Reverend Owens may not have been African American. But the first African American pastor of record was the Reverend Daniel Wilson, who was born in Griffin, died in Griffin, he's buried in Rest Haven Cemetery. And several pastors along the way. During that time, the early history of Mount Zion, the Eighth Street Baptist Church came out of Mount Zion as well. CAIN:Can I back you up just a little bit to make sure I'm clear? You're saying that Mount Zion started really in the basement of First Baptist. EADY:It did. CAIN:With slaves in the 1850s. EADY:Well, it started in the 1850s, they were in the balcony. CAIN:In the -- in 1850s they were in the balcony. And then they moved to the basement after the Civil War. EADY:And -- right. They moved to the basement. CAIN:And then from there they moved to the street -- EADY:New Orleans and Solomon. CAIN:Okay. EADY:Where the post office is now. Kind of at the back of the post office. I want a marker there but that's another story. (laughs) But that's essentially what happened. They were in -- I think most people think that they actually came from the balcony. Because that was common. CAIN:Yeah. EADY:In the South. It was common for slaves to worship in the balcony. But they didn't. They came from the basement. And I found in the minutes of First Baptist Church where they may have had a building adjacent to First Baptist Church. I cannot confirm that. But I have found in their minutes where they asked the emancipated slaves to repair their building. And if they didn't repair it the First Baptist Church would tear it down. And so that means that it had to have been a building. And it probably was a building in disrepair, I don't see them having such a grand building. Of course they moved then. It was a Mr. George Phillips that sold them the lot. They had the lot before they had anything on the lot at New Orleans and Solomon. And some historians say it was 9th and Solomon but the map says it's New Orleans. The Sanborn map says New Orleans. It was New Orleans and Solomon. So that's where they -- we started from. And we stayed there until November 10th, 1927. The church burned to the ground. November 20th, 1927, church burned to the ground. At that time Mount Zion had constructed a pretty grand brick building. Beautiful. And it burned to the ground. And they worshipped -- CAIN:(inaudible) how that happened? EADY:(laughs) No. What they said -- what the newspaper article said is that it started in the furnace. That it was a defect in the furnace. CAIN:Okay. EADY:And I said could be true, could not be true. But that's what was reported. And so after it burned they -- I think Mr. Touchstone told me there was an ice company there where -- next door. And they wanted to buy that property. But there -- the pastor at that time, the Reverend Emory Johnson, I guess they convinced the congregation to move where they are now, where we are now. And that's just a capsule. It's been interesting. CRUICKSHANK:(inaudible) '27, I think that's the year that Fairmont became Fairmont, wasn't -- when Fairmont was founded (inaudible). EADY:Oh, really? I'm not sure. I know that during the time they were building the church in '27 they got -- they went into the new church in '28 -- they worshipped at the Cabin Creek High School. CAIN:How was the -- how did they build the church? In other words you probably had to have some fundraising going on. You had to have some labor, you had to have some kind of design to come up with the current structure. And did you find out anything about how that happened? EADY:There was a company here in Griffin that actually built the church for them. They had to fundraise. (laughs) They nickeled and dimed their way. And they actually borrowed some money. At that time banks would not loan money to African Americans but there was a husband and wife, the Batchies, who actually it seems borrowed the money for Mount Zion. And Mount Zion paid the Batchies back through the bank. And that was -- I can remember that happening in Blackshear. I mean that was common also during the times. So that's the way. And then they just nickeled and dimed to pay those notes. Sometime they paid $15, sometime they paid $20. CAIN:Since we're on Mount Zion and the history of the community, you know, it's always been the case that the African American church had in addition to religious missions social missions. Things happened. It was a strong institution in the community. In addition to worship there were other things that the church did for outreach and that kind of thing. What's your sense for Mount Zion? You know, as to what -- how it happened with Mount Zion. EADY:In reading and rereading and rereading the rereading of Mount Zion's minutes and notes and talking to some of the elder members, Mount Zion was a center of activity for the community. I don't know that -- whether it was the largest church. I don't know why. But they had -- Cabin Creek School would have exercises. The different schools would have exercises. And the exercises were programs that they would have at the end of the year to show the parents what the kids had learned. And it would be at Mount Zion. The Masonic lodge would have things at Mount Zion. They would have -- I won't call them beauty contests. But they would have Miss Cabin Creek High School. That would be at Mount Zion. Musicals would be at Mount Zion. So it was an integral part of the community at that time. CAIN:Well, I've got a question that goes back to when you were talking about C. W. Daniels. And that is after integration you said that he went to top administration or went to the superintendent's office. And I just wonder if you had -- if he shared that experience, his sort of postsegregation educational experience or employment with you when you were interviewing him. EADY:What he shared with me and what I took from it would be that he was kind of a liaison between the African American faculties and staff and the superintendent and the white faculties and staff. That's what I got from it. I think his title, and that is in my transcript, was -- he was the supervisor of secondary education, or something of that sort. But he had in that capacity -- he had access to both sides. And they were sides. Both sides because it was very stratified. So he had access to both sides. CAIN:So he was kind of a liaison. EADY:He was just a man that (laughs) if he walked in you -- I mean you just sat up in your chair. And you got yourself together. Because that's who he was. That's what he expected. As I said, I was not one of his students. And I wasn't intimidated, but I knew that he expected the very best of me. And actually I appreciated that. I appreciated the confidence that he had in me. RICHIE BRAMAN:You've mentioned Cabin Creek School a couple times. For our audience would you just quickly tell them what that was? EADY:Cabin Creek was a private school that was organized -- I hope I'm right -- by the Cabin Creek Baptist Association. And I found in the University of Georgia rare books collection minutes of the Cabin Creek Baptist Association dating back to 1878 I think. And so it's one of the older private schools. It was a private school for African Americans. WALKER-HARPS:That name still remains (inaudible) recall a Cabin Creek Association or (inaudible). EADY:Yeah, there's still Cabin Creek Association. WALKER-HARPS:That association is still a very viable active organization. EADY:It is. CRUICKSHANK:Now that was an elementary school? EADY:No. It was first through twelfth. CRUICKSHANK:Oh. EADY:In the small communities in the segregated schools they were often 1 through 12. Not kindergarten. I never went to kindergarten. But I went to Lee Street High School for instance and Lee Street High School included first grade through twelfth grade. And they were divided -- Mr. Daniels told me this and it was true in my community as well -- into the high school department, which was 9-12, and the elementary department. You actually graduated from elementary in eighth grade and then you went to the high school department. All in the same facility. CRUICKSHANK:So you'd have multiple grades in one class, classroom. You could have elementary school. EADY:Yeah. CRUICKSHANK:All those different levels in one class. EADY:You could but -- CRUICKSHANK:In one room. EADY:-- this -- the Cabin Creek was not -- I don't envision it being like that. In our school we had separate. First grade was in a room. Second grade was in a room. And so on. We were in separate rooms, we just were in the same plant, same facility. WALKER-HARPS:In answer to that question, we're going to have somebody coming in who actually lived that life, who were actually in those classes, grew up in -- went to Cabin Creek and went to whatever the other elementary, whatever other schools were. So that we can get some -- a better idea rather of what it was really like. Anything else, John? CRUICKSHANK:Just curious. You commented at one point that I think there's a strong sentiment among the students that the -- correct me if I'm wrong but -- misinterpreting you. But that they didn't like segregation, that they would rather have just been on their own (inaudible) African American school. Is that what you're saying? EADY:Not really. Segregation, integration was a -- CRUICKSHANK:(inaudible) integration, yeah. Right. EADY:-- change. Integration was a change. And we know that change is sometimes quite difficult. And I'm speaking now from my perspective as well, not from what I got from Deacon Daniels. They felt an eradication of their identity. CRUICKSHANK:Right. EADY:As a school. And they were rallying against that more so I think than anything else. CRUICKSHANK:So that was a pretty much a universal sentiment. EADY:Pretty much. CRUICKSHANK:Strong sentiment. EADY:It was pretty much, it -- in my experience it was. In my experience it was. CRUICKSHANK:So they didn't see an upside to it? Or it was all (inaudible). EADY:We couldn't see an upside because it would -- for the most part African American students never set foot in a white school. So what was the upside? We didn't know. Until I went to Blackshear High School I didn't know that they had a whole room of typewriters and whole room of adding machines and a whole chemistry lab that was fully equipped, I didn't know what they had. CRUICKSHANK:So what were your feelings after the fact then, once you got into it? EADY:After the fact, oh, once I got into it, other than -- I got kind of angry, truth be told. I was kind of angry. Because my parents paid a lot of money in taxes because our family was -- CRUICKSHANK:Sure. Yeah. EADY:-- an old family in Blackshear. And so that we -- the land we lived on was -- paid taxes. A lot of taxes on. And I went, "Hmm. You mean to tell me?" Actually I remember the first day. I came home and walked up the steps and said, "Mother, do you know? Did you know? Not only do they have a chemistry lab, there's a microscope for every kid." We had one at Lee Street High School, and we had to take turns going to the microscope. So that was my first was anger. Now for me to communicate that to my contemporaries? They didn't care. CRUICKSHANK:Yeah. EADY:I cared because I just -- I was flabbergasted. I didn't -- we didn't know they had those things. So that would have been -- the facilities would have been an upside. A downside was that they hadn't -- we had not -- I'll say we. I'm going to say myself as well. Had not had any white teachers. So -- and they had not had any black students. So that relationship building was different. And sometimes there were no relationships built. I loved my school that I left. And I loved my teachers. I had teachers who did so much with so little. I know teachers that taught with chalk and a chalkboard and that is all. And they were excellent. As becoming an educator I -- that's when I went, "Oh my goodness." They were wonderful. But what I wanted for myself -- I don't know why I thought that way at 15, because I didn't have good sense, but okay -- (laughs) you know, a 15-year-old doesn't have good sense, but I wanted the best education that I could get out of Blackshear, Georgia. And I could have gotten a good -- I was getting a good education. But they had so little to work with. My band director who's still living and I love him, love him, love him because he changed my life, teaching me to read music, was the band director and the social studies teacher. He actually was more social studies than band. So then when I went to Blackshear High, that didn't exist. I had a social studies teacher. And my band director would have to petition and beg and stuff for not new books but books that had been used one time. We would get books that were -- and I'm sure some of you may have -- you didn't, you're too young -- encountered the same thing. We would get books that would actually have notes written to us. They knew that the segregated school would get the old books. So they would write ugly things in the books for us to see. On the pages of the books. And that was a way of life for us. But, you know, if you wanted to learn, you just went, "Oh, okay. Right." We'd scratch it out. Or you just -- you learned. And my objective, I was that nerd. And I really really liked school. That was the best thing that I could do. I'm not an athlete, never have been, couldn't play anything but the flute. And so that was my forte. I was not accepted at my old school all of the time because I was a nerd. You know, nerds have a hard way to go sometimes. So I thought that I was going somewhere that people would accept me for being a nerd and just leave me alone, let me read all day, and I'd be fine. Not. (laughs) It didn't happen that way. CRUICKSHANK:So you were even less accepted, I supposed. EADY:I was less accepted, yeah. CAIN:That whole question of identity I think that you talk about was -- EADY:It is. CAIN:-- huge but particularly on -- in integration because you had Lee High School on one side, you had Blackshear, and when they finally merged really Lee probably got absorbed into Blackshear, so all those things that you considered your identity -- which might be your colors, your, you know, whatever -- EADY:Your mascot. CAIN:Your mascot, all of that. Went away. EADY:Right. CAIN:And it was really more not necessarily a coming together in that sense of integration. But you got absorbed into the other school. EADY:And that's what happened at -- my understanding here in Griffin as well. And that was their concern. WALKER-HARPS:(inaudible) here in Griffin. They had a committee from both schools and it worked out a compromise. Now Mr. Daniels has that written someplace, I just couldn't find it. What would determine the school colors and the mascot and the whatever. But they agreed upon it. So agreeing to okay, the mascot will be whatever it is, and the colors will be something else. And that was how they did it. The two schools. The two student bodies I think. BRAMAN:That's what I wondered. Was this more or less -- was the perception that in integration the expectation was that the identity would be merged? And in reality the black students, sounds like they knew that it would result in a loss of a lot of their collective identity. EADY:Well, you know, to be fair, the white students thought the same thing. It was a loss of their identity. Because even though -- well, I will say in Blackshear they did use the colors and they changed, they got a whole different mascot, Blackshear was the Tigers, Lee Street was the Hornets, and now they're the Bears. So they got a whole different thing. But the white students felt the same way, that they were losing part of their identity. But they had the upper hand. So, you know, the privilege was there, so they had that privilege working for them. Whereas the African American students did not have the access to privilege in that sense. But it was a lot about identity. And ownership. The black school, the African American school, was the center of the African American community. And that ownership at that time, most of what African Americans owned -- and I put that in quotes -- was churches and schools. And to integrate was taking away one of those entities. BRAMAN:So in a very real way just the act of integration whether it was perceived as a positive or negative by the rest of the community, it was giving up ownership of one of the few things you could claim ownership of. EADY:Well, you know, in my old age, I've decided that it was less of a giving up and more of a reshaping. Because when I got to Blackshear High I owned that too. Mm-hmm. Because my parents were taxpayers and I, you know, so that I -- several -- I can't tell you how many times that students -- white students would ask us, "Why are you at our school?" BRAMAN:Oh, gee. EADY:And that wasn't bad, I got worse things than that, but okay. (laughs) And I said, "Because it's my school. My, you know, my folks work. They pay taxes, it's not just -- it's my school too." So I call that just a reshaping of the ownership. And many of the school -- the segregated school that I attended at one time became an elementary school. And that happened in a lot of communities as well. And then they finally closed it down because so many of the white parents did not want their kids, their elementary kids, to come into the black community. But in Blackshear I'm so proud to say that there was a group of men, it was 50 men, who put up $1,000 each and bought that school building, rehabilitated it, and made it a community center. They still have ownership. They still have ownership in that community of a place where people can walk to. Because the other community centers, they are welcome to go to those too, but they can't walk to them. WALKER-HARPS:You know, that's interesting, because the same thing, the same opportunity, existed here. It was not going to cost any money. It was only going to cost $1. And didn't happen. EADY:Cost them $50,000. Mm-hmm. WALKER-HARPS:And it didn't happen. I think it happened in Pike County and other areas. But the alumni association (inaudible) that Conniebell, and they never did anything with it. And at that -- it would have inherited a jewel, because we didn't know really the real value of it at that time. We didn't know. We did not -- we had no idea that it was a valuable piece of land. So some counties did, some counties didn't. EADY:Somebody had to have that vision. And those men had that vision and they had that commitment. Because they weren't offered it for $1. (laughs) WALKER-HARPS:Well, that was just to make it legal so -- that was just to make it legal. All right, is there -- CRUICKSHANK:But when you're talking about integration affecting identity, that goes a lot further than just (inaudible) racial identity. I mean that's affecting your ability to learn, everything. Is it not? I mean in the sense of how -- EADY:When I -- CRUICKSHANK:-- else did it affect students, not just you but generally students. I mean all of a sudden you're being taught by white people and you barely ever interacted with them, it's going to affect how well you can learn surely (inaudible). EADY:I'm sure it did. But it's according to that individual student. It's a really -- it's a very personal type thing. Whether you see past that to reach the goal that you've set for yourself, if that's your goal, to learn. Or you let that become an obstacle. I think it's very personal. I don't think -- the identity that I'm -- I was speaking of was a group identity. You know, everybody, teenagers like being a group. CRUICKSHANK:Right. EADY:And they had their group. They had their groups, they had clubs. They had organizations that they were members of. And they just felt a loss that they were losing that. And some of them didn't take too kindly to it. But as an individual it's very personal whether or not you let that become, you know, I was in classes where teachers wouldn't even look at me. But, you know, I just got -- you don't have to look at me. As long as you teach, I'll learn. And I, you know, there were stereotypes that members of the faculty had about African American students even though they had never taught any African American students. And we -- I didn't go there to dispel the stereotypes but I hope I did. I just went there to learn, that's all I wanted to do. WALKER-HARPS:Well, it's almost three o'clock, we need to bring this to a close so we can get to the next meeting. Thank you. EADY:Thank you. This has been very interesting. WALKER-HARPS:Thank you ever so much. CRUICKSHANK:Thank you very much. EADY:And I thank you for -- each of you for inviting me. This has been interesting and I hope this is beneficial. I hope that I didn't just ramble. Because you may know I can talk a long time. (laughs) END OF AUDIO FILE
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purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL418GAA/findingaid
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Griffin, Georgia
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66 minutes
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https://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL418GAA-018/ohms
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Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
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Interview with Charlotte Eady, May 11, 2018
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RBRL418GAA-018
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Charlotte Eady
John Cruickshank
Art Cain
Jewel Walker-Harps
Be-Atrice Cunningham
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audio
oral histories
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School integration
African American women
African American teachers
Education
Segregation
Women teachers
Description
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Charlotte Eady was born in Blackshear, Georgia, and grew up during mandatory integration, being one of first three African American students at her high school. Eady works as an associate professor of education leadership at Jacksonville State University where she conducts qualitative research on education. In this interview, Eady discusses her educational experience both as a student and in her career, along with the impact of segregation on the Blackshear community. Eady talks about attending Blackshire High School, her impressions of community leader C.W. Daniels, inequalities in education due to segregation, and the effect of integration on community identity.
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2018-05-11
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http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
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sound
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Griffin, Georgia
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-
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Griffin African American Oral History Project
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Georgia--History, Local
African Americans--History
Georgia--Communities
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The Griffin African American Oral History Project is a collaboration between the Griffin Branch NAACP, the Griffin Campus Library of the University of Georgia, and the Richard B. Russell Library. The seed was planted in the meetings of the Educational Prosperity Initiative which is also chaired by the president of the Griffin Branch NAACP, Jewel Walker-Harps. Collaborators on the project include: Griffin Housing Authority; Spalding County Collaborative; Fairmont Alumni Association; University of Georgia—Athens and Griffin campuses; and the Educational Prosperity Initiative, which is an affiliate of the Spalding County Collaborative and others. Interviewers on the project include: John Cruickshank, librarian at UGA-Griffin Campus Library; Jewel Walker-Harps, President of the Griffin, GA Branch of the NAACP; Art Cain, coordinator of Continuing Education for UGA-Griffin; Be-Atrice Cunningham, project manager for College of Agricultural and Environmental Science for Griffin; and Ellen Bauske, senior public service associate at the Georgia Center for Urban Agriculture in Griffin. Rich Braman was the sound engineer for this project. <br />The Griffin African American Oral History Project intends to document the experiences of people who lived in Fairmont Community in Griffin, Georgia during the civil rights era and through its transformation to the present day.<br /><br />All interviews in this collection have been indexed in OHMS.
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Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
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Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
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2015-2018
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http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
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Oral histories
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RBRL418GAA
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Griffin, Georgia
Oral History
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5.4
Interview with William Walker, May 24, 2018
RBRL418GAA-019
RBRL418GAA
Griffin African American Oral History Project
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies, University of Georgia
William Walker
John Cruickshank
Art Cain
Be-Atrice Cunningham
Jewel Walker-Harps
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67
Coming to Moore Elementary
I was born in a little town...
Walker talks about how he came to teach at Moore Elementary in Griffin, Georgia. Walker talks about the difficulties of attending school as a child, as he often had to walk to school. Walker talks about the impact that church had on his life and describes his childhood. Walker shares stories his experience teaching at Moore Elementary.
Anna Shockley;Griffin, Georgia;Moore Elementary School;Wetumpka, Alabama
490
Directing Griffin Middle School
Why who was Mrs. Atkinson...
Walker talks about how he became the president of the new Griffin Middle School, after working at Fairmont High School. Walker talks about the difficulties he had in getting resources for the school after integration. Walker talks about some of the other challenges he had in connecting with the middle school students.
Atkinson Elementary School;Atlanta, Georgia;Griffin Middle School;Griffin, Georgia
952
Teachers at Griffin Middle School
Most of the teachers that we had...
Walker talks about the demographics of his Griffin Middle School staff, and how many of the teachers understood the disadvantage of the background of their students. Walker describes the process of integration for Griffin Middle School, and the distribution of leadership positions after the schools merged.
education;Griffin Middle School;integration;teachers
1343
Growing up / The Fairmont High School Band
So, as you all kind of finalized...
Walker talks about how he was raised by his mother and grandmother and the impact that they had on his educational career. Walker describes his experience at Elmore County Training School and his decision to attend Alabama State University. Walker emphasizes the impact that the Fairmont High School band had on uniting the Griffin Community.
Alabama State University;Elmore County Training School;The Chicago Defender;Tuskegee University
1830
First day of integration
I had one gentlemen who told me...
Walker recalls the first day of integration at Griffin Elementary School and an interaction he had with one of parents who did not agree with mandatory integration. Walker talks about some of the intimidation methods used by the white community to show their dissatisfaction with the mandatory integration of Griffin Elementary. Walker emphasizes the importance of both the black and white Griffin community members who supported integration in the transition.
Griffin Elementary School;integration
2290
Retaliation to integration / College education
Where they had those big signs...
Walker talks about some of the retaliation attempts made by the Griffin white community after integration during the early 60's. Walker explains his belief that college is too strongly emphasized in the education system.
college education;Griffin, Georgia;integration
2750
Affects of integration
And when you look at it...
Walker reinstates how he believes that television media has impacted people's perceptions of the world's moral standing. Walker mentions his belief that integration has decreased educational discipline, which he opines is necessary for African American students. Walker talks about some of the work he conducted at the Griffin-Spalding County School System Central Office.
discipline;education;Griffin-Spalding County School System Central Office
3155
Griffin-Spalding County School System Central Office
Do you consider it to have been an advantage for us...
Walker talks about how his work at the Griffin-Spalding County School System Central Office was oriented to improving the literacy levels of students in the community. Walker describes the demographic layout of Griffin, Georgia during the 1960's, and some of the businesses surrounding the area. Walker recalls the impact he had on deciding the careers of students after their graduation.
education;Griffin, Georgia;Griffin-Spalding County School System Central Office
3599
Change in education / The impact of religion on children
And that's kind of absent now...
Walker talks about some of the liberties teachers could take with students, which were not acceptable in the integrated community. Walker explains how schooling emphasized the soft skills necessary for getting hired. Walker talks how the disintegration of the teacher-parent relationship has severely impacted the education system. Walker shares his belief that church helps with instilling morals into children.
church;discipline;education;teaching
Oral history
rbrl418gaa-019_walker JOHN CRUICKSHANK:I just left that open so like, Art gets a chance to join us. JEWEL WALKER-HARPS:Let's open it up. CRUICKSHANK:(inaudible) -- you guys want to go ahead and -- BE-ATRICE CUNNINGHAM:Sure. CRUICKSHANK:-- we'll start with my -- CUNNINGHAM:(inaudible) CRUICKSHANK:-- introducing everyone? CUNNINGHAM:Sure. CRUICKSHANK:It's Thursday, May the 24th, 2:10 PM. I'm John Cruickshank, librarian at University of Georgia, Griffin campus. And today, we're interviewing Mr. William Walker and our interviewers are -- CUNNINGHAM:Be-Atrice Cunningham with the University of Georgia, Griffin campus. WALKER-HARPS:Jewel Walker-Harps, president of the local NAACP branch. CRUICKSHANK:And myself, and Art will joining us in just a few minutes. So, let's begin, Mr. Walker, could just tell us a little bit about your background, where you -- where were you born and why did you come to Griffin? WILLIAM WALKER:I was born in a little town called Wetumpka, Alabama. I came to Griffin in 1959, of course. I came here to -- I applied for and was hired to be a -- elementary school teacher, Admore Elementary. And the good thing about that: my wife was a teacher, also. So, at that time, they had a position for her and we both were hired to work, Admore Elementary School, in '59, '60 school year. CUNNINGHAM:Well, can you tell us a little bit more about your early life? Like, you mentioned you were from Alabama. So, tell us a little bit more about that. What was early life like for you? WALKER:(laughs) Growing up in a small town in Alabama, getting to school each day was really a -- not a problem but it was great distance because we had to walk. CUNNINGHAM:Okay. WALKER:But we were there. I always had perfect attendance. CUNNINGHAM:(laughs) Okay. (laughter) WALKER:I did. And I can't remember very well, and some of you might remember, walking to school with the school bus passing me with white kids on it. CRUICKSHANK:Mm-hmm. CUNNINGHAM:Okay. WALKER:Many times, they'd throw something off after you, just dodge and keep going to school. (laughs) And we were fortunate. I had some caring teachers. I didn't realize how caring they were until I got to college, really, on all these 12 years. And I got to college and same things start coming up that I knew that other kids didn't know. So, I was happy, of my -- especially the lady who taught us English and history. So, my life was really a good life, really. I had a good life growing up. Didn't have much. When I say didn't have much, I always had what I needed. CUNNINGHAM:Okay. WALKER:Parents -- my mother was there -- father was not there at the time -- provided for me. And I got along quite well. I -- happy. I was a happy kid. There was never a time when I was just completely unhappy. We had -- of course, the church was in my life all the time. CUNNINGHAM:Okay. WALKER:All the time. My mother was dragging me to church every day. (laughter) So, I had that in my life and I grew up with that and that has followed me here. So, the same thing happened to me. I guess I carried my children to church in the same way (laughs) that I was carried to church and I think it's made an impact on their life. Great impact on their life. So, I was a happy kid. I don't have anything to complain about. We were -- naturally, there were -- whites were here and the blacks were here but we got along quite well, I thought. You understood that there were lines over here you did not cross and if you did there was a problem. So, we just got along quite well. My life was -- I had a full life. I can't look back and say I wish this had happened. Now, yeah, I wish we had not been segregated. Yeah, I wish we had not -- but through it all, it was okay. CUNNINGHAM:Well, it sounds like your mother started you off on the right path -- WALKER:Oh, yeah. CUNNINGHAM:-- especially starting you out in church. WALKER:Yeah. CUNNINGHAM:Did she tell you anything about what life was like for her growing up? WALKER:My grandmother talked about it a lot. She didn't -- talked about it. Somehow things were just not to her liking at all. (laughs) Her life was not such as mine that she could look back and say, "I'm happy I'm where I am now." She was born in, oh, in Tuskegee, Alabama, I believe. And they had moved to this other little town, Wetumpka, where we are now, where we were then. And I don't think it went well for her there. But for me, like I say, I grew up as a happy kid. (laughs) Did quite well in school. WALKER-HARPS:Your principal, when you came to Moore was Mr. Banks, right? WALKER:L.L. Banks. WALKER-HARPS:Yeah, was he sort of a unique person? I remember him vaguely. WALKER:Yeah, he was unique. (laughter) Very unique. He was -- well, quite -- WALKER-HARPS:(inaudible) (laughs) WALKER:-- an educator, I think. He was a fine fellow. But, I mean, he wanted to make sure that you were doing the job that you needed to do in your classroom. And we did, as best we could. Starting out with, well, we had more than 30 kids in the classroom and that's a lot to deal with. And we did not have special ed. as you have it today. We had some kids and I had a couple of kids, two or three in my room, who should have been in special classes. So, I had to try to teach, you know, from all angles. I had to teach them as well as I had to teach the kids who were fast learners. And I did have some fast learners in that class. CUNNINGHAM:Can you tell us about some of the other elementary schools that existed in Griffin around that time? WALKER:Well, there were -- Annie Shockley and Cora Nimmons and Atkinson. CUNNINGHAM:Okay. WALKER:But I don't -- I knew the principals but I'm not sure, you know, what was going on in that school, in their schools at that time. WALKER-HARPS:The schools went according to the communities, is that how it was? I don't remember. Students who lived in the -- WALKER:Yeah. WALKER-HARPS:-- in the Cavencook area attended Moore and those who lived on south side went to Annie Shockley or Cora Nimmons, whichever. WALKER:Right, and those who -- Atkinson, lived -- those kids from the project area came across to that school. WALKER-HARPS:Atkinson was one of the last schools, well, last of the elementary schools to be established (inaudible) WALKER:Yeah, it was, yeah, last. WALKER-HARPS:Well, I thought it was Mrs. Atkinson -- it was named Atkinson Elementary School. And often, you hear that name. It was -- WALKER:She was the wife of a black doctor we had in this town, B.H. Atkinson, who was the, well, the dentist, really. And I understand she was quite prominent in, you know, in pushing the education of children. CUNNINGHAM:Okay. WALKER:In fact, she was at Moore and she died. She was the person who passed away that my wife was able to get a job -- WALKER-HARPS:Oh, okay. WALKER:-- at Moore, in her memory. WALKER-HARPS:Okay. WALKER:Yeah. WALKER-HARPS:Now, there was a group, I understand, who was responsible for giving -- having milk in the schools for black children, am I right? Was that the -- WALKER:Civic Improvement League. WALKER-HARPS:-- Civic, okay, the Civic Improvement League. WALKER:It's the one that we have now, the Civic Improvement League. WALKER-HARPS:Oh, okay, okay. WALKER:They did -- that was one of the things they did. They made sure that the kids had the milk in school each day. CUNNINGHAM:Can you tell us a little bit more about your career path? What did you do after leaving Moore Elementary? WALKER:After I left Moore, I went to -- two years, I went to the high school. And there, after that, I was select-- either selected, whatever, principal of the newly formed junior high school. There had not been a junior high school for black kids in this town. We had been one through seven and eight through 12. CUNNINGHAM:Okay. WALKER:So, we -- I started, really, the seven and eighth grades, well, junior high school for black kids in this county. WALKER-HARPS:Prior to that, you were at what we know as Fairmont. WALKER:Mm-hmm, I was at Fairmont High until I moved or until I was appointed principal of that school and we got it started. In fact, if you remember, Jewel, we started of the middle of the year. WALKER-HARPS:The end of -- middle of the year, yeah. WALKER:Started in -- WALKER-HARPS:We did, in the middle of the year. WALKER:Started in January, opened that and can -- you can imagine what a scramble that was, to build schedules and get things going. We didn't have all the stuff we needed, so we had to form a PTA right away and that PTA was really formed to raise money, really. And we did. CUNNINGHAM:Well, can you expound on that? Can you tell us -- would you say that you didn't really have what you needed? Tell us more about that. What didn't you have that you felt like you needed at that point? WALKER:We didn't have physical ed. equipment. CUNNINGHAM:Okay. WALKER:We didn't have -- we wanted music in the school. We didn't have a piano, so we had to get the piano. That was -- I don't know, some other, smaller items that were for reading, where we finally got a control -- readers. But there were a number of things that system just did not provide us with at that time. And we were determined to have it, so we did. So, we raised money, sold candy, and whatever. And -- WALKER-HARPS:(unintelligible) customers of it, (laughter) and McHale, was it H. McHale that came weekly? WALKER:Yeah, candy. WALKER-HARPS:Yeah. WALKER:And that (their people really did a good -- the PTA, those who were in the -- who -- and Joy, Ms. Etta Johns, if you remember -- WALKER-HARPS:Yes. WALKER:-- Ms. Barbara Alexander -- WALKER-HARPS:(inaudible) WALKER:-- yeah, Barbara Alexander was strong in that effort, helping us raise money, and we got enough for the piano. WALKER-HARPS:Okay, Art Cain is just joining us here now. WALKER:Okay. ART CAIN:Should I sit here or -- WALKER-HARPS:I guess now wherever. CAIN:Oh, how are you? WALKER:Hey, how are you? CAIN:Pleasure meeting you. WALKER:Yeah, a pleasure meeting you. CAIN:Are we live? WALKER-HARPS:Yes, we are. CAIN:I'm sorry. (laughter) CUNNINGHAM:It's okay. WALKER-HARPS:I may have to ask you to move if it turns out we can't hear you well enough. CUNNINGHAM:Well, we -- WALKER-HARPS:I think you're okay where are you are. CAIN:Okay. WALKER:Who me? WALKER-HARPS:So, let's go ahead and try it out. CAIN:Oh, no, (inaudible) WALKER:Oh, over here? Okay. WALKER-HARPS:Much of our success could be contributed to our -- to parents. Dorothy McKinnon, Barbara Alexander, Belle Paron, and there were others whose names I cannot remember now but who worked -- WALKER:Don't remember all the names. WALKER-HARPS:Yes, who worked awfully hard to -- WALKER:But they were instrumental in getting us going in a new school, a new endeavor. Really, we had not had a junior high school before. CUNNINGHAM:So, tell us about -- once you moved on from the junior high school and moved on to Fairmont, is that correct? WALKER:No, no. No, no, I was at junior high after Fairmont. CUNNINGHAM:After Fairmont, okay. WALKER:After Fairmont, yes. CUNNINGHAM:Okay. WALKER-HARPS:Fairmont replaced the vocational high school for African Americans, right? WALKER:Fairmont, yeah. It did. But we were there for the period from, what, from seven -- from '61 until '70, when the schools were -- when the desegregation -- (when the?) schools were desegregated in this county. You know, along the way, we were -- during this time, they start swapping teachers to -- some teachers, some black teachers were chosen to go and work in -- at white school and that had not been the case before and we had some white teachers coming to work in the black schools -- CUNNINGHAM:Oh! WALKER:-- which had not been the case before. And we got along well with that, of course. I had -- they gave -- I had one gentleman who was from Pakistan and -- CUNNINGHAM:Okay. WALKER:-- he could not stay because the kid -- this -- I could not -- we couldn't get the kids to understand him, really. I thought he was a superior math teacher but they did-- I don't know. They didn't understand him and I guess they -- I could not make them understand him. Some of these kids, they, as you might understand, were kids who had not had experiences, broad experiences, that would allow them to do that because we had to work hard to -- one of our goals was to take them places. Some kids had never been to Atlanta. CUNNINGHAM:Okay. WALKER:Many of them had never been to Atlanta, never been to Stone Mountain. I remember carrying some kid to the Cyclorama one time and, oh, that was exciting to them. So, all of these things we did at, you know, in that time period from -- WALKER-HARPS:And forced teachers to stretch beyond what they were comfortable with. WALKER:Oh, yeah. Many did. WALKER-HARPS:Therefore -- yes. Yeah, we were -- if the teachers were not comfortable -- although you had to learn it. You had to start it, so you had to be able to share (laughter) your experiences with the children. If your experiences were very limited, then you had to expose yourself to what you did know -- WALKER:Yeah. WALKER-HARPS:-- to bring back to give -- WALKER:Yeah, we -- WALKER-HARPS:(inaudible) children. WALKER:-- we made a great effort to expose them to as much as we could each year, the two years we had them. CUNNINGHAM:Well, what other kind of challenges did you face when bringing in teachers from different backgrounds to work with these children? Did the children have any opposition? WALKER:No, but not -- most of the teachers that we had at that school -- it's, like, all -- except the two white teachers, I believe, that I had were teachers who had graduated from historically black universities as colleges. So, they had, they understood the experiences that some of the, you know, these children -- they knew that they had not had the same environmental (projection?) that some other kids have had. They have not had the magazines and all this in their house. They understood that. So, we tried to make sure that they were able to read, read magazines or whatever and do other things that would bring them into the mainstream. We worked hard at that. CUNNINGHAM:But as far as the white teachers that came in, did they encounter any challenges working with the students? WALKER:You know, they -- the two that I had worked quite well. CUNNINGHAM:Okay. WALKER-HARPS:Especially the lady. CUNNINGHAM:The lady worked quite well, she did. They worked quite well with the kids, they did. They did a wonderful job. I had no problem with that. The only problem I had was, you know, as I said, with the guy that we had from Pakistan. He had a problem. They had problems understanding him. That was the problem with him. WALKER-HARPS:We had what we call visiting teachers. What -- did you not have visiting teach-- what was Miss (McLeary?)? WALKER:I don't know what she was. (laughs) WALKER-HARPS:Or what (inaudible) she was not in the classroom -- WALKER:No. WALKER-HARPS:-- was she -- was in the -- WALKER:No. WALKER-HARPS:-- she was often in the schools. WALKER:Yeah, she was often in the schools, but -- WALKER-HARPS:She was often in the schools. WALKER:-- I think she had -- she was a product of early -- I don't remember what her position was but it wasn't -- WALKER-HARPS:Something every day -- WALKER:It wasn't something that -- WALKER-HARPS:-- ot something that related -- WALKER:-- related to what we were doing. WALKER-HARPS:Yeah, but it wasn't -- WALKER:(inaudible) WALKER-HARPS:-- related. She was -- WALKER:Yeah. WALKER-HARPS:-- sort of eyes and ears -- WALKER:Yeah. WALKER-HARPS:-- in the black schools. WALKER:Yeah. WALKER-HARPS:Yeah. (laughter) Yeah, so, then she really was. And tell us a little bit about the integration process. WALKER:Well -- WALKER-HARPS:I know you moved -- WALKER:Well -- WALKER-HARPS:-- to unit two. WALKER:-- it went, well, it went well. I said when we -- what happened when -- in the late '60s, when it was obvious that we were going to desegregate these schools in Griffin, we had conservator from the University of Georgia -- two, I believe, and I don't remember their names now -- to come. And we had meetings with the black and white principals and counselors. And we just -- we had great discussions there as to what should happen and how we could do it. The big thing that happened, you know, for -- they retained the school colors, Griffin High. And the high -- and the football team became the Bears. So, you know, this -- all these little things were worked out before we integrated and (inaudible) we desegregated in '70. Number of things were -- CAIN:I've got an integration question. You had two consultants come over from the University of Georgia and they sit down with folks from the African American school and -- WALKER:And -- CAIN:-- and the white school. WALKER:Right. CAIN:There were decisions like who were the people who were going to be in the various leadership positions when one school -- when some schools were going to close and you were going to merge into other schools. WALKER:Right. CAIN:How did all that get reconciled? WALKER:We did it in those meetings. We decided -- they decided who would be the football coach. The guy was at the high school with -- remained the, you know the head football coach, that -- the guy who was principal of Fairmont High School, Mr. Daniels, would become an instructional supervisor. And went -- WALKER-HARPS:Yes. WALKER:-- to, we -- oh, and let me say this: what we did, too, talking about those discussion, we decided that we would have seven, eight, and nine in separate schools. And so, I was chosen to be a principal of the eighth grade school and Daniels went to the high school. So, all of us who were in leadership positions, blacks, were moved into other leadership positions. WALKER-HARPS:What was the story behind Johnny Goodrum? WALKER:Johnny was the track coach. WALKER-HARPS:Track coach. WALKER:Yeah. WALKER-HARPS:Rather than being given the job as, what, a principal? WALKER:He was not princ-- he was the track coach. WALKER-HARPS:Okay. WALKER:He was not -- Johnny was the track coach and he remained -- WALKER-HARPS:Oh, but he was not -- WALKER:-- the track coach. WALKER-HARPS:Oh, okay. CAIN:How long were the discussions? Do you remember? How long, when you sit down and tried to work through that -- 'cause I would guess that would be some -- not necessarily heated questions but (inaudible) WALKER:Oh, God, it was heated! I remember one day -- (laughter) and they would last more than half day sometimes. (laughter) Funny thing, one lady said, this was a white lady said to me, she said, "Why" -- asked me and said, "Oh, y'all, all y'all got mustaches?" (laughter) She says -- and so, that was funny and that kind of (laughs) broke everything. So, we all had a big laugh out of that and we went on. But we -- it took all day -- not all day but, you know, hours. We would decide this would happen here, this would happen here, and what, you know, what would happen. CUNNINGHAM:Okay. CAIN:So, as you all kind of finalized some of those decisions and you started to make the transition from what things were and what they were going to be once integrated, there were things like bus routes and, you know, how kids are gonna -- WALKER:Yeah. CAIN:-- go from one neighborhood to the next neighborhood. WALKER:Then they -- CAIN:Schools, what -- you know, schools that were going to be neighborhood schools, all those kinds of things had to be meted out. WALKER:Yeah, and it was. CAIN:-- about family history? You know, your parents, grandparents, all those kinds of things -- because this is something that's going to be archived and it'll be something that will be available to people 100, 200 years from now. And they want to know about what you know about the 20th century, all the years you spent in the 20th century, if you had parents and grandparents who spent time in the 19th century, they'd like to know, I think, a little bit about what you heard about that. And so, if I am not inserting myself too much, I just want to -- WALKER:Well -- CAIN:-- you know, see if you can speak to some of that. WALKER:-- well, I'd say that I was born in a little town, Wetumpka, Alabama, just outside of Montgomery. I was raised, I don't know if I said earlier, by a mother and grandmother who were pretty strict people, believe -- not educated people but believed in education. Pushed me along a great deal. And I read -- some of you probably don't know about this -- a paper called The Pittsburgh Courier. You might have -- WALKER-HARPS:(inaudible) WALKER:-- heard about that. But that was a black -- and Chicago Defender. But in my early years, I had to read that paper. Now, I didn't read it every day but I had to hold it up as if (laughter) I was reading, so -- and then, of course, you had -- and, you know, in that process, you'll read some. And so, that was my beginning: school, church, really. I told them early I was dragged out to church every day, I thought. Yeah, school every day. I had perfect attendance, rain or snow. I'd watch the white kids riding by in the school bus (laughs) but I went on, never stopped. And so, it was a good life. My mother worked at the school cafeteria. So, we, many times, had a lot of cheese. (laughs) She'd bring some cheese or what -- that was good cheese, too! (laughter) WALKER-HARPS:Oh, yeah. WALKER:And so, we had plenty to eat and my, you know, clothing. I was well kept. You know, you just -- I couldn't ask for better under the conditions, under what she had. I just -- I was kept up to date. She made sure that -- just reading the paper, knowing what was in those two papers made a big difference in my life and in her life, too. CAIN:What high school'd you go to? WALKER:What? CAIN:What high school? WALKER:It was called Elmore County Training School -- was what it was called at that time. Elmore County Training School. WALKER-HARPS:And there was a reason why they call -- training school, right? Was -- WALKER:Yeah. WALKER-HARPS:-- there something about the curriculum that entitled it to be a training school -- WALKER:Yeah. WALKER-HARPS:-- that was different? WALKER:Well, they -- it was started that more -- that, you know, the academic portion was early on, I think, in the years. I don't know this, that it was surmised that we didn't, you know, we didn't need the readin', writin', and arithmetic. We needed to be taught something with our hands. So, they called 'em all training schools. A lot in Alabama. Almost all the black schools were -- in all the small towns were training schools -- is what they called -- WALKER-HARPS:And would you assume that (inaudible) High School was vocational for the same reason? WALKER:Probably. WALKER-HARPS:Yeah. WALKER:Probably. But that was my life, but I -- and it was a good life, really. It -- CAIN:Did you have brothers and sisters? WALKER:No, just me. CAIN:Just you. WALKER:Just me. Just me. Just me, my mom, and the newspaper (laughter) and the Bible. (laughter) CAIN:Then you matriculated on to college. WALKER:Yeah. CAIN:At? WALKER:Alabama State. CAIN:Alabama State. Just to insert myself in it just a second: my wife's parents went to Alabama State. WALKER:Yeah? CAIN:Yeah, so they are -- you all have that in common. What made you choose Alabama State and what was your -- WALKER:Well, it was close to home, as I said. You know, with the little -- Wetumpka, just 15, 20 miles up the road from Montgomery. So, that's why we chose it. And we had had occasion to go to Montgomery, doing the things that -- you know, at that time, there was a great rivalry between Tuskegee and Alabama State. Turkey Day Classic. You might have heard of that. CAIN:Oh, absolutely. (laughter) WALKER:And so, we -- CAIN:Still exists today. WALKER:-- we got a chance to go to the big parade occasionally. So, that's why -- one of the reasons I wanted to go to Alabama State. WALKER-HARPS:Talking about parades, talk a little bit about Fairmont and Kelsa and the parades and the football team and the band for whatever (inaudible) WALKER:Oh. WALKER-HARPS:-- segregated. WALKER:Oh, yeah. WALKER-HARPS:We didn't miss anything being segregated. We had our own little fun. WALKER:They had a -- but we had band. Mr. Tucker had the band and they played all -- he called it tootin' all the time. And we used to go -- (laughter) and if you remember, you know where Fairmont High School is now? WALKER-HARPS:Mm-hmm. WALKER:They used to -- on Friday nights, one of the major attractions in Griffin was for that band to -- they would march from the school to the stadium. And boy, everybody's on the street just (laughs) -- it was a big deal in Griffin, Georgia. Big deal for Mr. Tucker and his band to march up Full Street down to the stadium. WALKER-HARPS:And Mr. Tucker was a sort of unique man, too. WALKER:Yeah. WALKER-HARPS:Very gentlemanly. Very, very gentlemanly -- WALKER:Yeah. WALKER-HARPS:-- I'd say, yeah. WALKER:Yeah. WALKER-HARPS:Yeah. WALKER:He was gentlemanly. WALKER-HARPS:Yeah, he's -- WALKER:But that really should be something that should be said in all of this, that the Fairmont High School band -- and how it marched from -- how it went from the high school to the stadium on football nights that they had a football game and what it did for the city, 'cause black folks lined up just to see the band go by. For years that happened. And then, we went onto -- we talked earlier about the junior high school, then, finally it was the day that we had to integrate and we did. And you know, that went better than what a lot of people thought. The first day of school was really a good day of school. I had one gentleman who came and told me his kid couldn't go to school, you know, with the, you know, what kids. And I said, "Well, we only have one eighth grade, mister." (laughs) So, wasn't nothing he could do but go away. But he came back the next day and brought his son. (laughter) Everything -- it was funny with him. There we were in the hall, me, a black man, the first day, talking to a guy -- I mean, he had a gun, come to think about it. He said, "My son cannot go to school with niggers!" I said, "Well, (laughs) I don't know where he's going because this is the only school we have, only eighth grade we have." And so, he mumbled and mumbled and went on, told his boy, "Come on!" And when he came back the next day, I heard about it. I was in the office and I heard him talking to the secretary and I didn't go out. (laughs) I thought, to myself, oh, yeah, you had to come back. And so, things went well there. We had several days -- trucks to come through with a Confederate flag, like, Confederate flags on the back. But it never -- they never stopped and I never thought to call the police, anything, because they would just ride through the parking lot and then they would leave, with the flags, you know, on the back of the truck. I don't know what they were trying to say. I do know what they were trying to say but they never did bother us. WALKER-HARPS:What was the idea? Do you know? Or was it just the consensus of the group to allow a no choice kind of situation? Because, well, you're saying there was only one eighth grade, one seventh grade -- WALKER:We did that in those discussions -- WALKER-HARPS:Yeah. WALKER:-- that's what we did. WALKER-HARPS:So, yeah -- WALKER:That was deci-- WALKER-HARPS:-- was that a rough -- approved? Was that very difficult to come to? Okay. WALKER:No, it wasn't. WALKER-HARPS:Okay. WALKER:After we discussed it, you know, a good while, everyone agreed, well, now, that will -- we'll solve one problem -- WALKER-HARPS:That's right. WALKER:-- with that. That will solve the problem. WALKER-HARPS:Wouldn't have a choice. WALKER:But seven, eighth, and ninth graders, that'll solve a problem. And so, we did. Seven, eighth, and ninth graders, in different buildings. And so, it went well. I had some teachers who were seemingly a little concerned the first year. But, you know, they finally got, you know, came aboard. Everything went well. The first year I was there, in February, at that time, you know, we were having black history weeks -- or months, rather. So, I ask a white teacher to be in charge of Black History Week and she did. You know, Miss Hilgo. WALKER-HARPS:Oh, yes. WALKER:So, you know, all these kinds of things just made -- you know, we tried to -- I tried to look for the obvious way to make things go well. And it did, it went quite well for us at the junior high school, at eighth grade. WALKER-HARPS:But I thought that leadership, and this is personal, too, that leadership in the schools, the school that I went to when I left Kelsey, they went over backwards to make sure -- I mean, it was not just a normal thing but people went out of their way to make it work, to make you feel comfortable. Things that they would not ordinarily have done -- WALKER:Yeah. WALKER-HARPS:-- they did to be supportive and to make us feel comfortable. Well, just a couple of us there but they did that. I guess nobody wanted to be the school that had the problems, had the issues. WALKER:Had the problems. WALKER-HARPS:Yeah, had the issues. WALKER:Well, yeah, we didn't. I was -- you know, all through this, the things went well in the school system. All during this time, we had, what, we had black policemen being the -- you know, the city choosing black policemen, which I had -- that happened. We had the park integrate -- desegregated. That was, you know, that was a big deal. And one funny story on that is that one of the commissioners made a big speech one night about blacks and whites swimming together and that he'd have, you know, sand put in it. And he did! (laughs) WALKER-HARPS:Yeah, he did. WALKER:And the swimming pool at the park was covered. And we had -- there was a swimming pool at the recreation -- the black recreation center and doggone if he didn't put sand in that one, too. (laughs) So, we had that going on. But nevertheless, we continued. Then, we got together, there was a group that got together to raise money to build a swimming pool. Public. And so, you know, we got the one we got out there now. CAIN:Seems like there was more hysteria up -- you want to use that term -- on the front end about what was to come versus once you got into integration, the people tried to make it work. WALKER:Yeah. CAIN:And each side didn't feel as -- you know, they got comfortable with each other. People started to get -- WALKER:Yeah. CAIN:-- comfortable with each other. WALKER:Yeah, we did. And, I don't know, we had a lot of people who just tried to make it work. You know, we always had the other side, those who didn't. But we had a lot of people who tried to make it work and things went well in time because we had those few who worked so hard to make it work. CAIN:You mentioned one thing, though, you -- the gentleman who said, "I'm not going to bring my child to the eighth grade." I just wondered if you have a sense of the impact it had on the growth of private school education in the area, that when they integrated -- WALKER:I think it -- yeah, had great impact. It wasn't -- in 1970, there was this certain spurt of private schools in -- Christian schools. Churches all over Griffin. Not all over Griffin, I take that -- I don't say everybody. But a number of churches in Griffin started private schools in the early '70s. WALKER-HARPS:But in spite of the turmoil, well, the lack of a great deal of turmoil during the integration period, before that time, we did not consider ourselves much deprived, very deprived when we were at Fairmont. WALKER:No. WALKER-HARPS:No. We know that we didn't have comparable materials and resources, what have you. But our accomplishments were such that they are -- some of 'em are even nationally known today. CRUICKSHANK:Yeah. WALKER:But you have a picture of that food, not food -- Foodtown, yeah. WALKER-HARPS:Oh, oh, okay. WALKER:But you had, though, a big sign said -- WALKER-HARPS:Okay. WALKER:-- "Nigger go home." CUNNINGHAM:Oh! WALKER-HARPS:Okay, I'll look through -- I'll look at the picture had -- see if they got it, yeah. WALKER:That should be there somewhere. I mean, just -- WALKER-HARPS:Yeah. WALKER:-- for people to see what happened, how you try and make money and you turning people away. WALKER-HARPS:Oh, yeah, you were here when the (McLindon?) incident, whatever -- WALKER:Yeah. WALKER-HARPS:-- going on downtown. WALKER:Mm-hmm. WALKER-HARPS:Yeah. Gosh. CAIN:Do we have an account of that? I don't recall that. WALKER:There's got to be an account somewhere of -- WALKER-HARPS:Oh, probably downtown, I'm sure, just as the Griffin Daily News has accounts for us, they would have accounts for that period, too. WALKER:Yeah. WALKER-HARPS:May have to go to courthouse, though, but they would have -- WALKER:Yeah, I'm sure -- WALKER-HARPS:-- there would be accounts. There would be news accounts, yeah. WALKER:-- you can find that, you -- WALKER-HARPS:There would be accounts on that. WALKER:-- if there -- McLindon and that would be good to somehow have -- WALKER-HARPS:Have and -- yeah. WALKER:-- with this. Now -- WALKER-HARPS:Now, do y'all have a picture of the old Kelsey -- of the building that was -- where the Mount Zion parking lot is? WALKER:Mm-mm. WALKER-HARPS:Mm-mm. WALKER:Yeah, somebody does, though. I'll try to find that right now -- WALKER-HARPS:Okay, yeah, because what we're calling Kelsey now is not the original -- WALKER:No. WALKER-HARPS:-- spot, site for Kelsey. WALKER:No. WALKER-HARPS:What we're operating now -- WALKER:No. WALKER-HARPS:-- we called it Kelsey, that was not the original site. WALKER:No. WALKER-HARPS:But Kelsey, the original site was across the street from the Coca-Cola plant -- WALKER:Right. WALKER-HARPS:(inaudible) high school where there's no sign of it now and just a parking lot. But that was -- Joanne Hennessey referenced that in her interview. CAIN:It's -- different location. WALKER-HARPS:Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. CAIN:Okay. Would either one of you be comfortable talking about the incidents you mentioned? WALKER:Hmm? CAIN:Would either one of you be comfortable talking more about the incidents you mentioned? WALKER-HARPS:The McLindon -- the -- WALKER:Oh. WALKER-HARPS:-- sit-ins that would have been at the McLindon -- WALKER:Oh, whatever -- WALKER-HARPS:-- the store and the grocery stores and what have you. We'll probably try to bring in somebody who was a part -- who actually worked at -- I believe (Sherry Beher?) worked with -- WALKER:Yeah. WALKER-HARPS:-- was one of the persons who worked there. WALKER:Worked there. WALKER-HARPS:Worked there. We'll try to bring in somebody who actually -- CAIN:Do you know what year it was? WALKER:I can't -- now, that's what I was trying to remember, what year that was, though. WALKER-HARPS:I don't know. It would -- had to have been -- WALKER:It -- WALKER-HARPS:-- around the -- '61 -- WALKER:It was in the early '60s. WALKER-HARPS:-- or two. WALKER:I just thought that was funny to -- that appeared -- a, you know, grocery store. WALKER-HARPS:There was an element, even though the schools were running smooth, pretty smoothly on the surface, you still had the undercurrent. WALKER:Yeah, everything was pretty -- but through it all, I think we got through it a little better than most places, which is -- WALKER-HARPS:What interests me most, not -- the positive side of life. We didn't really know just how bad we were, how bad off we were. We were doing fine. I mean, we were happy, (laughter) we were successful, and you -- all you need to do now is to look at the records and see the children who came through Fairmont to see that they have become or they have made a success of their lives, academically and/or sports-wise. WALKER:Yeah, yeah. WALKER-HARPS:So, the odds were out there but the commitment on the part of our teachers really made the difference. WALKER:You made a point, asked a question -- I don't know if it was a question or a statement about what will be said to children today, I think you said that, and said. WALKER-HARPS:That's one of the questions. WALKER:And, you know, it's not a lot -- what I think -- we ought not to make big speeches. We ought to just pound in them, "We want you to be a contributing citizen." And we said that enough, you know? We can get carried away about how much money you're going to make and all that. But if you can just -- if a kid can just grow up thinking that "I must contribute something, something I must contribute to this way of life, I must contribute," I think we'll be -- down the road, we'll be better people. We'll be -- see, and we all struck on, right now, going to college. Every parent right now who has a two-year-old is talking to that child about going to college. And that doesn't necessarily need to happen. There are so many other things that a kid can do, you know? I don't think we need to be stuck on going to college. There are some kids who need to go because there are some higher things that, you know, some kids ought to do. But some don't need to go to college. We're going to fool around -- and years, if we aren't careful -- not have carpenters and brick masons and this kind of thing. Now, what's more important, when you call, if you call a carpenter -- I'm going to say a plumber, (laughs) and you can't get a plumber. (laughter) So, I think education can do more in that regard, I really do. I hope we can, down the road. See, we, our schools, our Southern Crescent now, I don't know how much they are pushing, pushing, pushing, you know, the trade skills. Maybe they are, I don't know. WALKER-HARPS:How can we do -- I understand what you're saying but how can we do that, what you're saying? How can we get the community to understand that -- WALKER:I don't know. WALKER-HARPS:-- this is it? And I say that because when you were a principal, when you were in the school system, when I was in the school system, our children did not have a choice. We would catch 'em in the hall and you would say, "All right, you're going to be in this class" or "you're going to do this" or "you're going to do that." WALKER:(inaudible) WALKER-HARPS:And you were backed up by parents. WALKER:Yeah, you can't do that now. WALKER-HARPS:You can't do it anymore. WALKER:No, you can't. You can't do -- WALKER-HARPS:You can't -- WALKER:-- what I did in schools. (laughter) WALKER-HARPS:You can't do it, so what's the alternative? No -- WALKER:I'd go to jail, like -- WALKER-HARPS:-- you'd go to jail. WALKER:-- go to jail, yeah. WALKER-HARPS:Yeah, what's the alternative? WALKER:Be in jail now. I don't know, we just -- somehow, it needs to happen and I just hope down the road it can happen, that someone can pick up what you are doing here and look through this -- and it have some great meaning to 'em, you know? You look, I look back at just reading the life of George Washington Carver, some of the, you know, black folks I know who made contributions. And it's important and this -- to say this is what happened in Griffin 50 years from now. I think it's going to be important to some -- ought to be. I'm sure it will be -- WALKER-HARPS:Well, we hope so. WALKER:-- to a lot of people. WALKER-HARPS:We hope so, that they will see what you were like and what others were like and what you did. WALKER:What others were like and -- WALKER-HARPS:And -- WALKER:-- what we did. WALKER-HARPS:-- well, yeah, what you did. This is one of the purposes of doing this, so that my children and your grandchildren and your grandchildren will -- WALKER:And when you look at it, it's -- what we did and what's going on now is not totally different from what happened when I was a boy, except, you know, we -- obviously, we are closer together as a society. We've desegregated everything, pretty much, and you can go where you want to go if you've got the money, so -- WALKER-HARPS:The values have changed. WALKER:-- well -- WALKER-HARPS:The morals and the personal values -- WALKER:-- I don't if it's -- WALKER-HARPS:-- have changed. WALKER:Not everybody. I don't think -- see, I think we say that too loosely. I think we still have the values. See, we see too much TV. Too much TV and -- but that's -- there's so many good people in America. And it's taught by Griffin. There are just so many good people in Griffin who willing -- who's ready and willing to do the right thing. But we don't hear from them as much as we ought to. CUNNINGHAM:What I would like to know, can you share with us what you think are the positives and the negatives of integration, the effects of integration? I mean, there were some positives, but looking -- WALKER:Yeah. CUNNINGHAM:-- at it now, looking at the way our educational system is today, there may have been some negatives. But share with us what you think. WALKER:Well, I think the real negative is that black teachers and parents worked together a whole lot and were willing to accept decisions made by the teachers. That isn't the case now. If a child was misbehaving at school, not doing his work, and you talked to a parent or you disciplined the child, then you got back in that home, that doesn't -- I don't think that, from what I can see and hear, that doesn't work. The positives, I guess, are that, you know, we need to be -- people need to be in relationships, one with the other. If we can't build or I can't build a relationship with a bunch of white folks if I don't ever be with them. CUNNINGHAM:Right. WALKER:And so, that's a positive. But one of the real negatives is that we can't discipline children like we used to. And I'm not so sure that black children -- don't need to be disciplined in a different way. Some would fuss with me about saying that but I think so. And it has to do with home environment. See, right now, we got so many children -- parents, rather, who are 20 years old, 18, 20 years old. Now, they need -- so, what they need is a principal like me in school, (laughs) in the school who's going to make the children do what they're supposed to do! There's no doubt. "You've got to do this because it's right." Because the young won't do it -- an 18, 20-year-old person with a child, you know, they don't really know what to do. Grandmama's got to raise the child. Grandmama's bringing the child to school. So, teachers need to be really in charge. CRUICKSHANK:If you were a principal today, do you think you would be effective? WALKER:No. CRUICKSHANK:No. WALKER:I couldn't because I -- there are some ways we dealt with children that we couldn't deal with them nowadays. You couldn't do it. Just can't do it. CAIN:If we segue to your time in central office, could you talk a little bit about how you went from other phases of your educational -- being principal and so on, how did you transition to central office? And then, beyond that, the relationship with folks at central office and what your job was in central office -- WALKER:Yeah. CAIN:-- could you talk a little bit about that? WALKER:Yeah, I went to central office as director of federal programs. And I found that to be quite fulfilling because I was able to, at that point, deal with kids who were Title I kid. Now, those were the kids who were -- all the kids who were on free lunch. I was able to -- they were at the poverty level, really, from homes that met the poverty level standard. So, we were able to pull those kids out in instances and work directly with them in math and reading. And we accomplished a whole with them. And that was -- I enjoyed that a great deal. I got along quite well with everybody at, you know, at central office. Superintendent, pretty much -- I wrote the proposal and he would look at it and sign it, pretty much. And we had a good amount of money to spend in all the schools that were deemed to be Title I schools, that had, what, 50 percent of that kid's own free lunch. That's how we chose them. And we chose the kids and worked with them several hours a day in reading and math. Spent a ton of money buying computers, getting the computer, bringing the age of computers to school. And I was happy for that. CAIN:You worked with 'em during the regular school time? WALKER:Yeah, during the school day. CAIN:During the school day. WALKER:During the school day. We had decided that it was more important, several days, for a child to be in reading than in a science class. You know, if he couldn't read, he couldn't master the science class, so we did it that way. Pull out. We called it the pull out. We pulled them out, worked with 'em. WALKER-HARPS:Do you consider it to have been an advantage for us, I think, community to have had you downtown doing Title I? WALKER:I don't know. I can't say, Jewel. WALKER-HARPS:You can't say? WALKER:If it was an advantage or not. (laughter) You know, any advantage because my goal was to work with all children who were below the poverty level. Many were white. CAIN:And the criteria was below the poverty level or those who were not reading at grade level or not performing math -- WALKER:Yeah. CAIN:-- at grade level? So, you had to have that income -- WALKER:Yeah, the income had to be first. CAIN:-- be first. WALKER:And then -- CAIN:And then, after that, you need some remediation and -- WALKER:Yeah. CAIN:-- in math or reading. WALKER:Mm-hmm. CAIN:Okay. WALKER-HARPS:Did we leave out -- any gaps, anything that you would like to say that we may not have asked you about that you think should be a part of your interview that would be beneficial to the -- WALKER:No, I can't think of any right now. WALKER-HARPS:A physical picture of what the community of Griffin was like. If we could look back and see Griffin in 1961 -- WALKER:Sixty-one. WALKER-HARPS:-- compared to what it is today? WALKER:If you would imagine, from the railroad track back this way, it would be us, for the most part. There were some whites living in the area over there where the Northside school is. But for the most part, all of us lived over there or across town on what they call Spring Hill. That's across from -- on Meriwether Street, that section, across. WALKER-HARPS:(inaudible) and Edgewood -- WALKER:Yeah. WALKER-HARPS:-- where they just finished tearing (down or going to?) tear down -- WALKER:Mm-hmm. WALKER-HARPS:-- those -- WALKER:Those were our pockets and we were -- WALKER-HARPS:-- the pockets. WALKER:-- pretty much there. That's the only place we were. WALKER-HARPS:Yeah, but did we not have our own businesses and whatever? We had -- WALKER:Yeah, no, we had some. We had cafes downtown. Barbershop. Raymond, he had had the cleaning. Pressing Club, he called it. WALKER-HARPS:Funeral homes. WALKER:Funeral homes. WALKER-HARPS:Beauty parlors. WALKER:Yeah, beauty parlors, of course. WALKER-HARPS:Simmons Grocery. WALKER:Yeah, we did have a small grocery store. Had one over on -- Ed on (inaudible) of the -- WALKER-HARPS:DuBois Road?. WALKER:-- DuBois Road, being -- they had a little store over there. That's about it, though, (laughs) for us. WALKER-HARPS:We haven't had -- as I ride through now, and maybe even confirm this, the areas around the mills, the areas, the houses that were surrounding the mills, those were occupied not by blacks, though. Weren't they occupied by whites or were they -- WALKER:Whites. WALKER-HARPS:-- black? Yeah, whites. WALKER:They were all -- almost all those houses were owned by the mill and rented to the mill -- WALKER-HARPS:The millworks. WALKER:-- and people who worked in the mill. And those that -- close to the mill were white. All those around those mills were rented to white people. WALKER-HARPS:And you'd live at -- WALKER:And the -- WALKER-HARPS:You look at the appearance of it now(inaudible) these were white folk? Yeah, they were. (laughter) WALKER:Yeah. WALKER-HARPS:Yeah, they were, because they were the prominent the workers in the mills, because at that time, we didn't have a lot of mill -- we had domestic workers but -- WALKER:Domestic workers. WALKER-HARPS:Yeah, but we didn't have a lot of -- WALKER:There were a good number of blacks who worked in mills and -- until we had the canning -- WALKER-HARPS:Oh, yeah, Pimento Products plant. WALKER:-- Pimento Products came to town. And when Pimento Products came to town, it employed just -- a lot of people and they -- peppers and, I don't know, they even made some greens, I think. WALKER-HARPS:Peaches and greens and -- WALKER:Peaches and -- WALKER-HARPS:-- yes (inaudible) WALKER:And it was a big deal. And a lot of people had, you know, had jobs then. The pay wasn't that good but at least they had a paycheck coming from that place. And it ran for a long time. You could smell it all over town. CUNNINGHAM:Yeah, (laughter) yeah, right. WALKER:You could. You could smell it. When they were canning the greens -- WALKER-HARPS:Yeah. WALKER:-- you could smell them all on the other side of town. CAIN:And you all had to be in a kind of enviable position. You know, when kids graduated from Fairmont, they had to make a decision about what they were going to do next in life. And a lot of times, I think probably you had to almost be in connection with the business community in some form or fashion to help direct them towards jobs or you had to identify kids who were going to go to college or go to the military. All those post-secondary options for people who graduated, a lot of times I know folks who were in leadership in the high school helped kids make that transition from where they are to the next step, whatever that is going to be. WALKER:Yes. CAIN:Was that something that you were involved in and -- WALKER:Yeah, something we did. All our own kids. Those who were, many who were able to get the opportunity. This time, General Motors and Ford Motors, those plants were running quite well. So, many of the young kids could get jobs right away at Ford, General Motors, and made decent salaries. Those going to the military, we worked with them. And we had some we pushed onto college who we knew were college material. So, we did all those things. Some, we had a number, I know, kids who -- McLindon kids who we pushed into Morehouse and Clark. A bunch went to Fort Valley and the whole business. So, we had a number. A number. WALKER-HARPS:That you have not said a lot about but I know for a fact that you and others did a lot of nurturing. WALKER:Yeah, we did. WALKER-HARPS:You were, yeah, you did a lot of -- it didn't just happen that our children all of a sudden became smart in terms of making decisions and -- WALKER:No. WALKER-HARPS:-- doing well in school. There were persons who took on any number of children as their own, practically. WALKER:Yeah. WALKER-HARPS:And kind of nurtured 'em and guided 'em through. He did and there were others who did. So, it didn't just happen that -- WALKER:There are a number of people -- WALKER-HARPS:-- oh, yeah. WALKER:-- did, number -- WALKER-HARPS:Yeah, a lot of people did. WALKER:-- did. WALKER-HARPS:We were mamas and daddies and counselors and whatever. WALKER:Yeah. And that's kind of absent now. I know -- you take Larry. Larry -- WALKER-HARPS:Yes! WALKER:-- had no -- he didn't know where he was going or anything. We got him going and he got out of college and did quite well. WALKER-HARPS:Quite well. And there were others. WALKER:Some -- WALKER-HARPS:(inaudible) WALKER:-- others that you -- WALKER-HARPS:-- that is a good example. WALKER:-- just push -- WALKER-HARPS:Yeah. WALKER:-- push, push. Push right on. Miriam was another one, (Blaylock?) child that -- WALKER-HARPS:We saved -- WALKER:But there were a number. WALKER-HARPS:He and his coworkers saved a lot of children, where in -- and this is a difference. This is not happening now. WALKER:No. WALKER-HARPS:The connection is not there and the commitment is not there, so (inaudible) WALKER:No, you can't call -- see, you take the kids that I dealt with, some of them, I would, after school, have them to come to my -- take the girls, two girls, Miriam and Brenda. They would come to our house, come to the house. Of course, my wife would be there. But you couldn't do that now. It's, you know, you'd go to jail now for touching. (laughter) So, you know, it's not the same. I don't think you could. I can remember when, if a child got sick at school or something, girl or boy, I'll just -- get in the car, boy or girl, I take them home. WALKER-HARPS:Of course. WALKER:But you can't do that now. You can't. There's so much you could do then that you can't do now that I wish we could. It seemed reasonable that a teacher -- but I guess what has happened in the meantime, so much has happened. So many kids have been mistreated, you know, otherwise that folks are skeptical. But that was a time when they were not. WALKER-HARPS:Even hygiene-wise, we took care of that. WALKER:Yeah. WALKER-HARPS:You can't do that with a child, comb the -- and the fallout is not from the outside as much as it is from your own. WALKER:Oh, yeah. WALKER-HARPS:Yeah, from your own. WALKER:Yeah. I remember my wife, when she was at Kelsey, the McLindon boy, Josh and -- (laughs) who's with Allstate now. She used to come make him wash his face every morning, comb his hair. So, I'm saying there are a lot of things that went on when we had all black schools that could not go on now and maybe should not, I don't know. WALKER-HARPS:Well, I know that you believed in shirttails in, hats off, all kind of things that are part of soft skills now that there is a need for because when you go to look for a job, those are things that you need to know. But there's nobody to pick up the slack. WALKER:Yeah, yeah, I -- there are some things -- I could remember doing -- telling boys you cannot go into this place and ask anyone to hire you with your hair looking like that. CUNNINGHAM:Right. WALKER:You can't do it. Just when you walk in, that's the end of you when he sees you, so -- WALKER-HARPS:Exactly. WALKER:-- fix yourself up. So, I hope that some of that's going on now. I don't know. I don't know. I hope it is. WALKER-HARPS:I would hope so. WALKER:I hope we can get some kids employed. And like I said, just be citizens. Be able to contribute something. If I leave this world and I haven't contributed anything to anywhere, then that's sad. WALKER-HARPS:Well, that's the story that your children, Kevin and Cheryl would say about you. They had no choice. They will say and they often say they had no choice about whether they were going to do their homework. If they played -- WALKER:Oh, no. Oh, no. WALKER-HARPS:-- football, (hey can come in tired and or whatever. But you would say -- WALKER:Yeah, well -- WALKER-HARPS:-- "Get your glass of water, then sit down and do your homework." WALKER:Yeah, well, I hope parents are doing that now. Some are. We can't say all or not. Some are. But I don't know, we got too much ire. We're just moving so fast. We got so many of these online schools. Man, every time you turn your TV on, someone's added another school. You can just -- I don't know. I don't know what's going to happen to our mainstream, mainline universities. I guess they got to get online in order to keep up, I don't know. CRUICKSHANK:Yeah, that's revenue-driven, that's money-driven. WALKER:Huh? CRUICKSHANK:That's revenue-driven. WALKER:Yeah. Oh, yeah. CRUICKSHANK:Yeah. WALKER:Yeah, it is. CRUICKSHANK:Yeah. WALKER:But -- WALKER-HARPS:All right, is there anything else (inaudible) CAIN:Can I ask you another question? Well, you mentioned this a couple of times: do you feel like a lot of this was lost when the teachers lost that relationship with the parents? WALKER:Yes, I do. Lot of it, that was when it was lost, when -- see, that was a time in my lifetime, whatever the teacher said was right. Now, it might not -- been right all the time but parents, there were very few parents with all the -- with any teacher about anything. And it happened during my time, during my period of principalship. I could call the parent and say what had happened at school or what needs to happen and I'd get an okay. But I don't think that's the same now. How we get back to it, I don't know, but -- WALKER-HARPS:That's a big question. How do we return? CAIN:Yeah, it's important, it's important. WALKER:Yeah. WALKER-HARPS:How do we (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) CAIN:-- parents' involvement in their kids' education -- WALKER:Yeah. CAIN:-- and having that relationship with teachers. WALKER:You got to do it. You know, what helps the kid, I would probably be fussed at about this for saying but, you know, I think just -- I fussed with my parents, were angry with my parents for dragging me to church every day that they went. But it helped me and I just believe the same thing would be true with some of our children. You know, going to church won't get you to heaven but certainly, I think, it might make you a better person. I do. I think it will. I really think it will. CAIN:Can I ask you a question. WALKER:Yeah. WALKER-HARPS:Changing values. I think it would, too, but we don't have it. We don't even have it from the faith community, we don't have that encouragement. We don't have that community engagement, we don't -- WALKER:Well -- WALKER-HARPS:-- have it. We don't have teachers going to -- visiting homes. I had to go. WALKER:Oh, yeah, now, no. WALKER-HARPS:Yeah, I had to go a whole lot. WALKER:No more visiting homes anymore. WALKER-HARPS:That -- no, but we had to -- WALKER:They don't do that anymore. WALKER-HARPS:-- you had us go on to visiting homes, yeah. WALKER:Yes. CAIN:Talk about that. (laughter) WALKER-HARPS:Yes. CAIN:This sounds like -- WALKER-HARPS:Visited homes. CAIN:-- that's the first time I've heard of that. WALKER-HARPS:Oh, really? CAIN:Yeah, yeah! WALKER-HARPS:Oh, we had to go -- WALKER:Yeah! WALKER-HARPS:-- out and visit at homes. He had us making sure that we put up a bulletin board (laughter) and it's a teacher bulletin and put a -- just pictures of that -- you just had to have 'em in and they had to teach a lesson. WALKER:Had to teach a lesson. WALKER-HARPS:They had to teach a lesson. WALKER:Yeah. WALKER-HARPS:You taught us that if your child is not learning, if your class is not learning, you're not teaching. WALKER:Yeah, don't -- you got to go talk to Mom and Dad. CUNNINGHAM:Yeah. WALKER:I asked them -- we did ask teachers to do that. That was asking a lot but many did it. WALKER-HARPS:Yeah. WALKER-HARPS:Yeah, that was a lot. CAIN:Made sense. (laughter) That's incredible, that just be great to come back -- WALKER-HARPS:It -- CAIN:-- if teachers visited -- WALKER-HARPS:-- yeah. CAIN:-- parents. WALKER:Yeah, yeah WALKER-HARPS:Yeah, it was a different kind of structure. WALKER:Didn't it used to be that? -- WALKER-HARPS:And I guess because -- perhaps you can tell me this if this is true, perhaps because you felt the need to compete. We were separate but it was important that we be as good -- WALKER:Yeah. WALKER-HARPS:-- with what we had, is (inaudible) WALKER:But we always -- that was always that -- WALKER-HARPS:Yeah. WALKER:-- that feeling -- CRUICKSHANK:How -- WALKER:-- that we must compete. (laughs) CRUICKSHANK:How widespread was that practice, visiting home -- WALKER:What -- CRUICKSHANK:-- going -- you're saying you were going and visiting -- WALKER:Yeah, it was widespread. CRUICKSHANK:-- children and their parents -- WALKER-HARPS:Yeah. Yeah (inaudible) WALKER:Widespread. WALKER-HARPS:-- yes. CRUICKSHANK:Widespread like all over Atlanta? How was -- WALKER:Oh, no, no. I don't -- CRUICKSHANK:How widespread? WALKER:I can't -- widespread, when you said -- well, I thought you were talking about Spalding County. I don't -- CRUICKSHANK:So, all throughout Spalding County? WALKER:Yeah. CRUICKSHANK:Right, that was (inaudible) WALKER-HARPS:In the black community. WALKER:In the black community, yeah. CRUICKSHANK:Just in the black community. WALKER:Yeah. CRUICKSHANK:Okay. WALKER:Just in the black community. WALKER-HARPS:'Cause we recognized -- CRUICKSHANK:You saying that they didn't have the -- WALKER-HARPS:-- a need to do it. CRUICKSHANK:That didn't happen in the white community? WALKER-HARPS:I don't think so. WALKER:I don't think so. I don't know but -- WALKER-HARPS:I don't know but I don't think so. WALKER:-- I don't think so. WALKER-HARPS:Well, when I went to the white school, I didn't have to do it -- say it that way. That was not an issue when I went -- when I moved, was transferred to the white school. That was not an issue, it was not a discussion. CAIN:So, how did that initiative start? I mean, who thought about -- how did that get started? WALKER:Principal started this. (laughs) Kid wasn't doing well, say, okay, what can we do? And many, see, there were not -- they didn't all have telephones that you could call them or ask them to come to school. They were working. Some were working in homes and they or they were going -- some getting a taxi ride to work and the taxi ride back home. So, they didn't have any time to come to school. So, I just asked Jewel if a kid, couple of kids in her room not doing well, "Jewel, you need to visit these homes." So, Jewel get in the car and go visit 'em. And many times, kids do better because of that. WALKER-HARPS:And you didn't mind the circumstances under which you were making that visit. WALKER:No. WALKER-HARPS:And there were varied kinds of circumstances. WALKER:Yep. CAIN:Well, that's definitely a -- shows caring to be able to go out and to identify those -- WALKER:Yeah. CAIN:-- those kids, those families. WALKER:All teachers didn't want to do it but I'd say -- you know, (laughter) there were some who didn't like doing it but we kind of say it's necessary. This kid's not going to perform well, he's not going to behave any better unless we have some contact with home. CRUICKSHANK:Was there ever any pushback? WALKER:On teachers? CRUICKSHANK:From the parents or the kids? WALKER:No. WALKER-HARPS:No. WALKER:I never had any pushback from parents. From kids, yeah, they didn't want you to go, but -- (laughter) they didn't, no. They didn't. WALKER-HARPS:Well, you have to understand that during that period of time, and in our community, the most important people in the community were the teachers and the preachers. WALKER:Yeah, yeah. WALKER-HARPS:Yeah. WALKER:Yeah, so -- WALKER-HARPS:Teachers and the preachers. It's no longer that way but -- WALKER:No long-- WALKER-HARPS:-- it was then. CAIN:You know, it's interesting, teachers and people in education in general don't make a lot of money. You know, they make some money, it's a good living, but some of the -- one of the best things that can happen for a teacher, if somebody who's made a difference in your life is if that person come back and tells you about it. WALKER-HARPS:Oh. WALKER:Oh, stars of mercy, yes. WALKER-HARPS:Yes. WALKER:That happen -- and that's happened. I had a child -- haven't been many. Several years. It's been several years ago now. She was in -- I think she's somewhere in Texas. But she called me, said, "I've been trying to get your number." Said, "I just want to thank you for what you did." And this was when she was in the seventh grade. CAIN:Do you remember who it was? WALKER:Nah. CAIN:Okay. WALKER:Yeah, she was, I remember, I got -- I wrote the child's name down when I was talking with her. But she was just happy. CAIN:Yeah, yeah, yeah. WALKER:But she was ready to quit school then and we said, "No, it's just you can't do that." So, we accomplished some things and we just hope it's going to get better. Like I say, I just want our kids to just be kids who are going to contribute. So, give something back. I don't care about how much money you make or what. You just need to, all of us, need to do that. That need to be our goal. All right. WALKER-HARPS:Anything else? We need to wrap this up. CUNNINGHAM:Was there anything else you'd like to share with us that we haven't covered? WALKER:No, I think we've covered a good bit. I don't have anything else. CUNNINGHAM:Well, thank you so much, Mr. Walker -- CAIN:Yeah, thank you -- CUNNINGHAM:-- for coming -- CAIN:-- Mr. Walker. CUNNINGHAM:-- today. CRUICKSHANK:(inaudible) WALKER:Well -- CUNNINGHAM:We appreciate you. WALKER:-- I'm glad to have talked with you and I hope this comes out to be a great project. WALKER-HARPS:We hope so -- WALKER:So -- WALKER-HARPS:-- too. (laughter) We hope so, too. There are others involved but they aren't here today. Ellen Bosca's involved. She's not here today. Who else is not here? That's it. But I hope so, I hope it turns out to be a good project. CRUICKSHANK:Okay. CUNNINGHAM:All right, thank you so much. WALKER:All right! WALKER-HARPS:And we'll -- WALKER:Thank you. CUNNINGHAM:You're welcome. WALKER-HARPS:Yeah. END OF AUDIO FILE
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purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL418GAA/findingaid
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Griffin, Georgia
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73 minutes
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https://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL418GAA-019/ohms
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Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
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Interview with William Walker, May 24, 2018
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RBRL418GAA-019
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William Walker
John Cruickshank
Art Cain
Be-Atrice Cunningham
Jewel Walker-Harps
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audio
oral histories
Subject
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African American teachers
School integration
Description
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William Walker was born in Wetumpka, Alabama and came to Griffin, Georgia in 1959 to teach at Moore Elementary School. Walker later became the first black president of the newly integrated Griffin Middle School before he took a position in the Griffin-Spalding County School System Central Office. In this interview, William Walker talks about his experience as a teacher and principal in the school system and his work at the Central Office. Walker touches on a variety of topics including the integration of Griffin County’s school system, his work as a principal, and the effects of integration on the African American community of Griffin, Georgia.
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2018-05-24
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http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
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sound
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Griffin, Georgia
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-
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Griffin African American Oral History Project
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Georgia--History, Local
African Americans--History
Georgia--Communities
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The Griffin African American Oral History Project is a collaboration between the Griffin Branch NAACP, the Griffin Campus Library of the University of Georgia, and the Richard B. Russell Library. The seed was planted in the meetings of the Educational Prosperity Initiative which is also chaired by the president of the Griffin Branch NAACP, Jewel Walker-Harps. Collaborators on the project include: Griffin Housing Authority; Spalding County Collaborative; Fairmont Alumni Association; University of Georgia—Athens and Griffin campuses; and the Educational Prosperity Initiative, which is an affiliate of the Spalding County Collaborative and others. Interviewers on the project include: John Cruickshank, librarian at UGA-Griffin Campus Library; Jewel Walker-Harps, President of the Griffin, GA Branch of the NAACP; Art Cain, coordinator of Continuing Education for UGA-Griffin; Be-Atrice Cunningham, project manager for College of Agricultural and Environmental Science for Griffin; and Ellen Bauske, senior public service associate at the Georgia Center for Urban Agriculture in Griffin. Rich Braman was the sound engineer for this project. <br />The Griffin African American Oral History Project intends to document the experiences of people who lived in Fairmont Community in Griffin, Georgia during the civil rights era and through its transformation to the present day.<br /><br />All interviews in this collection have been indexed in OHMS.
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Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
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Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
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2015-2018
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Oral histories
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RBRL418GAA
Coverage
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Griffin, Georgia
Oral History
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OHMS Object Text
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5.4 2019-08-30 Interview with Larry Caldwell, August 30, 2019 RBRL418GAA-021 102 minutes RBRL418GAA Griffin African American Oral History Project Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies, University of Georgia Larry Caldwell Art Cain John Cruickshank Be-Atrice Cunningham Rich Braman Jewel Walker-Harps 1:|16(4)|26(49)|26(184)|26(349)|26(524)|26(736)|26(949)|30(63)|34(145)|34(333)|38(41)|42(19)|42(206)|42(370)|42(542)|42(713)|42(911)|42(1049)|42(1192)|42(1338)|42(1489)|42(1663)|42(1811)|42(1963)|44(20)|50(134)|50(368)|62(24)|62(152)|70(92)|70(275)|70(466)|70(618)|70(810)|72(10)|78(103)|78(269)|80(25)|82(151)|86(103)|86(252)|86(434)|86(596)|92(22)|102(96)|102(283)|106(4)|106(177)|106(394)|108(14)|114(133)|114(289)|114(459)|114(621)|114(809)|118(36)|126(63)|132(18)|134(91)|134(245)|134(414)|134(603)|134(755)|138(150)|138(332)|142(50)|148(149)|152(76)|152(215)|152(378)|152(552)|152(710)|160(147)|160(305)|160(513)|160(630)|160(766)|160(917)|160(1097)|172(92)|172(217)|172(425)|172(631)|172(768)|180(16)|188(8)|192(153)|192(331)|192(512)|192(671)|192(881)|192(1104)|200(117)|200(288)|200(452)|200(624)|212(8)|212(189)|212(421)|214(65)|240(14) 0 Kaltura audio < ; iframe id=" ; kaltura_player" ; src=" ; https://cdnapisec.kaltura.com/p/1727411/sp/172741100/embedIframeJs/uiconf_id/26879422/partner_id/1727411?iframeembed=true& ; playerId=kaltura_player& ; entry_id=1_2rov2udm& ; flashvars[localizationCode]=en& ; flashvars[leadWithHTML5]=true& ; flashvars[sideBarContainer.plugin]=true& ; flashvars[sideBarContainer.position]=left& ; flashvars[sideBarContainer.clickToClose]=true& ; flashvars[chapters.plugin]=true& ; flashvars[chapters.layout]=vertical& ; flashvars[chapters.thumbnailRotator]=false& ; flashvars[streamSelector.plugin]=true& ; flashvars[EmbedPlayer.SpinnerTarget]=videoHolder& ; flashvars[dualScreen.plugin]=true& ; flashvars[Kaltura.addCrossoriginToIframe]=true& ; & ; wid=1_0653csy2" ; width=" ; 400" ; height=" ; 285" ; allowfullscreen webkitallowfullscreen mozAllowFullScreen allow=" ; autoplay * ; fullscreen * ; encrypted-media *" ; sandbox=" ; allow-forms allow-same-origin allow-scripts allow-top-navigation allow-pointer-lock allow-popups allow-modals allow-orientation-lock allow-popups-to-escape-sandbox allow-presentation allow-top-navigation-by-user-activation" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; title=" ; Kaltura Player" ; > ; < ; /iframe> ; 99 Growing up in Springfield Well I was raised up right here... Caldwell talks about his childhood growing up in Springfield, Georgia. Caldwell describes the poverty of his neighborhood, as he grew up in a segregated African American community. Caldwell relates how his father provided food for his family as a child. farming ; mill ; poverty 561 Life as a golf caddie When the crop got ready, when the hogs... Caldwell talks about the community of his hometown, Springfield. Caldwell relates his experience as a golf caddie and talks about one of his friends, Jim Cercy. Caldwell explains how his understanding of World War II influenced the way he saw himself in regards to the daily racism he encountered. caddie ; Jim Cercy ; racism ; Springfield ; World War II 1021 After Vietnam I'd join the Marine Corp., plus I told... Caldwell talks about his time serving in Vietnam, and how his experience brought insight after returning home during the Civil Rights Movement. Caldwell explains how he went to Griffin Technical Institute and worked in automobile repair and welding, and how he eventually came to work at General Motors. Civil Rights Movement ; General Motors ; Griffin Technical Institute ; Vietnam 1462 Effects of the Vietnam War And I tell them, how I did it... Caldwell talks about how once he got out of the Marine Corps he worked to help young men freshly out of the Marines get jobs. Caldwell shares stories about the people who influenced him as a young man, including some of the teachers he had. Caldwell describes the ways in which the Vietnam War mentally effected his emotional state, as well as that of community members returning from war. Caldwell explains how he dealt with his PTSD following the war. General Motors ; Griffin Tech ; Joe Baker ; post-traumatic stress disorder ; Vietnam War ; William Walker 1885 Teachers and the Griffin Community We were partying so hard at the time... Caldwell talks about how he decided to join his community's church. Caldwell describes the impact teachers had on his upbringing as a kid. Caldwell shares stories about his children, Ophelia and Demarcus. Caldwell talks about raising his grandson. church ; Demarcus Caldwell ; Just Wings ; Ophelia Caldwell ; Savannah State University 2346 Family Ophelia's oldest boy, the one... Caldwell describes the rest of his family. Caldwell talks about his love for his family, and the way his upbringing with his mother influenced his parenting style. Ophelia Caldwell 2759 Grandchildren and family history Do what you can to help... Caldwell talks about the ways in which he helps take care of his family. Caldwell explains how his father influenced the way that he raises his own children. Caldwell relates stories of his grandfather and how he made money making syrup and bootleg whiskey as opposed to accepting the life of a sharecropper. children ; church ; plantation 3176 Caldwell's grandfather (cont. ) / The Civil Rights Movement She wouldn't let him buy land... Caldwell describes his grandfather and the uses of syrup during his childhood. Caldwell recalls the impact that the assassination of Martin Luther King, Jr. had on his decision to join the Civil Rights Movement. Civil Rights Movement ; Griffin High School ; integration ; segregation ; syrup 3614 Civil Rights Movement (cont.) / The Griffin Pool They would tell us to go... Caldwell talks about resistance methods used by Civil Rights activists in Griffin, Georgia shortly after the death of Martin Luther King. Caldwell shares stories about the actions some members of the white community would take to stop integration. Caldwell relates a story about a pool in Griffin. Civil Rights Movement ; segregation 4087 Griffin High School integration When we was in school... Caldwell talks about the integration of Griffin High School, especially the integration of the football team. Caldwell explains how many black students were not able to play on the football team after integration. Caldwell relates how the integration of football teams resulted in better performance across many universities. Alabama State University ; football ; Griffin Eagles ; Griffin High School 4511 Racism and Discrimination growing up Everybody knew Mahalia... Caldwell talks about the most influential moments in his life concerning the civil rights movement. Caldwell discusses the hate taught through the racism he often encountered growing up. Mahalia Jackson ; Marine Corps ; racism 4924 Racism and Discrimination (cont.) I said, 'You taught her that, mam...' Caldwell shares his belief as to the origin of racism in the United States. Caldwell explains how he was often discriminated against by police as a child. Caldwell recalls how black police officers were not allowed to arrest white people shortly after integration. discrimination ; police ; racism ; Sam Bass 5390 Inclusion and the Civil Rights Movement All of them wasn't like that... Caldwell talks about some of the positive experiences he had with white people growing up, and the importance of white people in the Civil Rights Movement. Caldwell talks about the importance of taking care of others in the community. Civil Rights Movement ; discrimination ; religion 5802 Friendships (cont.) / Concluding thoughts Do you have anything else you... Caldwell talks about some of the white friends he had growing up, and the ways they defied the discriminatory precedent. Caldwell shares some of his experiences as a kid growing up in the Griffin community. friendship Oral history RBRL418GAA-021_Caldwell ART CAIN: We are here at the University of Georgia on August the 30th, 2018 in our oral history project. We have several folks who are here who will be interviewers, and we will have the privilege of interviewing -- JEWEL WALKER-HARPS: Mr. Larry Caldwell. CAIN: Mr. Larry Caldwell. LARRY CALDWELL: Yeah, Caldwell. CAIN: We will first introduce each of the interviewers and then let Mr. Caldwell start to tell us a little bit about himself. My name’s Art Cain. I’m with the Office of Continuing Education here on the University of Georgia campus. JOHN CRUICKSHANK: I’m John Cruickshank, and I’m the librarian here at the Griffin campus of UGA. BE-ATRICE CUNNINGHAM: I’m Be-Atrice Cunningham. I’m a project manager in the assistant provost’s office here at the University of Georgia, Griffin campus. RICHIE BRAMAN: I’m Richie Braman. I’m an administrator and developer with the Center for Urban Agriculture. WALKER-HARPS: I’m Jewel Walker-Harps, president of the Griffin branch NAACP, and a lifelong friend of Larry Caldwell. CUNNINGHAM: Mr. Caldwell, thank you so much for being with us today. CALDWELL: You’re welcome. You’re welcome. I’ve been looking forward to this. I’ve been notified about this weeks ago, and we were just trying to get a date and a time set up. Believe me ; I’m busy too. CUNNINGHAM: (laughs) Well, we are so glad to have you. So we’re going to start off by you just telling us a little bit about your background, your family background. CALDWELL: When I was raised up right here on the south side of town, in which is called Spring Hill, and that side of town was beyond poverty. That’s where I was raised up at. Our streets probably were the last streets in Griffin that they actually paved. Spring Hill and Boyds Row were dirt streets because they were black neighborhoods. I could go up to the road one block, and (inaudible) the cannery. When we were little kids, we got skates for Christmas. We had to go up the street just one block away because the cannery was there, and that’s where we skated at because it was concrete. That’s as far as that went because the cannery. You understand how deep (inaudible) is? That was on concrete. That’s about what it was like when we was coming up in my neighborhood as a young boy. And my daddy, he worked at Dundee Number One for 44 years. And after 44 years, his retirement was 44 dollars a month because the negroes weren’t allowed unions inside the cotton mills. Back in the ’50s and ’60s, no way there’s going to get a union in the cotton mill. They didn’t know the scale of wages they were making, and they didn’t understand at that time that they didn’t have benefits at all. He just had a job. When I was a young boy, I had to work. My daddy got me a job at the mill -- me and my brother. We worked at the mill 40 hours. The wages back then was a dollar and a quarter an hour. For one-week wages, 40 hours, I brought home 40 dollars because the quarter was taken out in social security and taxes. I only got a dollar of it. Every week, my check was 40 dollars. And I knew as a young boy then, I got to -- something got to be better for me. Daddy drove truck up there all them years, and that’s all he got: 44 dollars a month for 44 years. And the only way we survived, my daddy was a farmer. On each side of my house on Spring Hill where we lived, this man would come around during the spring of the year with his mule and his wagon. And he would plow up the yards on both sides of the house, and that’s where Daddy had his garden. We didn’t have any money, but we had plenty to eat because he raised it. In our backyard, it was a big tree back there. Daddy would raise so many onions, he would line them up around that tree and that’s where they hung. We had a smokehouse full of meat because he cured hogs, and as a young boy, I could never understand. Now, I do. How could salt preserve meat? I would watch him put this meat in these boxes of salt and it would be there till next year or the next year because the salt preserved it. That’s where they get those hams from -- that salted ham -- because they pack it in salt ; they cure it. They learned this up here, not after, because they know all this stuff. Daddy didn’t go to school, but he could raise more food than we could eat for agriculture. He gave away his beans, his peas and stuff. The crop was so big, he would tell us, “Go put this bag of beans on the porch and just walk off. Just leave them,” because the neighbors got tired of him giving them that stuff. They couldn’t eat it ; we couldn’t eat it. Mama and them canned it as much as they could. That’s how we was brought up. Daddy provided that way. Money, we didn’t have -- very little -- but he made sure we ate. We had plenty to eat. We wasn’t hungry ; we wasn’t that hungry. I used to go out to the hen house when I was a little boy, and I would get eggs out of the hen house out the nest. And I would hold them in my hand and go straight to the kitchen, which was a wood stove that you already had prepared to cook on. And I would crack that egg in my hand in the pan. You don’t get no fresher egg than that from the hen house to the pan. That’s the way I was brought up. We had, in that smokehouse, Daddy would make sausage. Can’t get sausage like that today with the sage and all the hot peppers and stuff the way they made it. (laughter) And I can remember all I could do was reach that pot, what it was in. And as a little boy, I would stand on my toes and put my hands in there and just reach down like a dip and just get as much sausage as my hand could hold. And I would go to the store and put it in the pan. And that was the best sausage. Can’t find it like that no more. Every now and then, you’ll take one of them hot sage, that hot pepper and that sausage. It was good. We had homemade syrup. Homemade butter we bought from a man in Orchard Hill ; he made butter. We got our butter from him. Everything was homemade. We bought very little. That’s why I don’t care for syrup today, and butter today because I was brought up, as I said, on the real stuff. This stuff don’t taste the same. If you ever had a biscuit with some homemade butter on it, you could understand why we come up just eating butter bread. Our kids tell her, “How you snack on that all day?” I tell them, “All day, all we ate was butter bread, and sometimes just syrup and bread.” But they didn’t understand. It wasn’t this quality bread and butter that they have in the store today. It tasted better. WALKER-HARPS: Did you make the butter? Did y’all make the butter? CALDWELL: The guy in Orchard Hill made it. We would buy butter from different people. Different farmers (inaudible) different stuff they would make for his food. This one man, he made syrup. We would go by his house and buy the syrup. This one man, he made buttermilk. We would go by his house and buy buttermilk by the gallon. And that’s the way it was. If you didn’t have the money, you could pay him a dozen eggs, and he’d give you so much buttermilk. I mean you’d trade it out. You got any eggs? Yeah, I got a dozen eggs. Well, I’ll give you a gallon of buttermilk. That’s the way it was back then. CUNNINGHAM: Sounds like a cooperative, yes. CALDWELL: That’s the way it was, yes. And if you needed -- like, for let’s say at the store. Even at the stores back then, they would allow people so much credit. If you didn’t have the money to pay the guy that owned the store, and let’s say at the end of the year you owed him maybe, say like, “Well, we got a grocery bill from this year.” “Well, I got stuff on credit.” My daddy was sent 200-some dollar bill. If he didn’t have 200 dollars, he’d go out there and get him a hog. Daddy had a yard full of hogs. He’d give him a hog. Let’s sit on a deal. See what I’m saying? But everybody paid their way, and they cared. They traded it out like that, and they call that a shake-of-a-hand deal. Wasn’t no paper signed ; wasn’t no agreement, no contract, just your word of mouth and a shake of a hand. He said, “By the end of the season.” I didn’t know what that mean when I was a young boy. He was talking about when the crop got ready, when the hogs was full grown. At the end of the season, we’re going to square off, whether it be money, meat, or whatever, vegetables. We’re going to square off at the end of the season. A lot of times, that’s what they’d done. That’s what -- I don’t know what they got charged to plow those fields up, but he would go from house to house if you want it plowed up. And that’s the way I was brought up as a young boy. And we used to caddy on the golf course. We would put clothes on layaway to go to school. And all summer, we would caddy on the golf course to pay for them because Daddy had nine children. If you got nine kids working at the mill, and when you go to school today, in my day and time, we was wearing Levi’s and Converse All Stars, which they called Chuck Taylors. That’s what the young guys was wearing, and that’s what I wanted to wear -- the Levi pants and the Converse All Stars. I had to buy them, though, because Daddy couldn’t afford to do that with nine kids, so I would caddy and put my clothes on layaway. That’s how I got clothes to wear to school when we was coming up. CUNNINGHAM: Well, tell me about your experience as a caddy. I mean during that timeframe, was that a positive experience? CALDWELL: It was in a way, it was. In a way, it wasn’t because Daddy told us to work for a living, and we carried the golfer’s bag. And they had a wage decided what they paid the caddies, and the guys would pay it, and it was like two dollars and a half for 18 holes. The guys out in Atlanta always paid more. They would give you four to five dollars, sometimes even ten dollars, to carry their bag. I don’t know why the guys out in Atlanta paid more. The Griffin guys only paid 2.50. They wouldn’t pay any more. But the guys out in Atlanta, they always paid more. I had a friend -- y’all might know him -- Jim Sersa. I’m sure y’all know Jim Sersa, real estate fellow. Been in real estate forever. Jim was my friend at that time of segregation. The Griffin Drive-In is still there. Caught up below the library here by the cemetery, but that’s all. Right below Mount Zion Church. CUNNINGHAM: Memorial Drive? CALDWELL: Memorial Drive. Griffin Drive-In, still now, they sell the best chili dogs, best chili burgers in town. As a young boy, blacks weren’t allowed to go in there, but when I was a little boy, I ate in there because I was with Jim Sersa. He would take me in there with him and wasn’t a word said because I was with him. And he would buy me hamburgers and hot dogs and he would set them in front of me as a little boy, knowing I couldn’t eat them. He would buy me four hamburgers and two Coca-Colas. It just tickled Jim to watch me try to eat them because I did work for him around the house. And he was just good to me like that. He was my friend. Jim’s my friend today. He is today. Things like that I remember coming up as a little boy, people like Jim Sersa that really weren’t racist. He took me aside this restaurant where blacks weren’t allowed. But with him, because he was a big man at that time -- the Sersa family -- nobody said a word, because I was with him. But this is what bothered me caddying on the golf course coming up as a little boy, a young man. In school, they taught us the history of this country. And I always have been military minded ; that’s why I joined the military. I always have liked the military. I always wanted to be a soldier, and I would read a lot of stuff about the war and stuff like that. And I read about Japan, the war we had against Japan, how they bombed Pearl Harbor and so many Americans was killed at Pearl Harbor that awful day. And them two nuclear bombs they dropped on Japan because we would never beat them in that war. We had to do something to stop them, so our leaders decided to drop two bombs on them. It took two nuclear bombs to stop Japan. We heard about this in schools. But as a young boy, I’m at the golf course caddying. I’m not allowed to play golf on the city golf course. I wasn’t allowed to go inside the clubhouse as a black boy in the city golf course. But Japanese could play golf ; the Japanese could go inside the clubhouse. And you look at that with a bitter taste in your mouth. You’d be thinking, “What’s wrong this picture?” My brothers ain’t -- they wasn’t military like me. I was just -- even as a younger boy, I read about the military. I would just read military history. And I would tell them, “Do they realize how many Americans,” -- these guys playing golf didn’t, but the country as a whole -- “probably killed?” The Japanese? “And they have better rights than we do. They have better privileges than we do.” That’s what I looked at coming up as a young man. When I got of age in school, I realized school’s not working out for me. Wasn’t making good grades. If I ever finished school, I never would have went to college even with a -- all I would ever got was a high school diploma. I said, “I got to do something to make a positive move in my life. Always had loved the military. I want to join.” They drafted me in the Army ; that’s what they did. After they drafted me, I realized I was going in the Army anyway, but I always wanted to be a Marine because it was a lot of black guys back then, which was very rare having been in the Marine Corps. And Sam Bass was one of them. And Sam Bass’s sister, her name Deborah Bass, she was my friend -- not good friend, just a friend. And in ninth grade, by me having a job, I had my own car. Boy, that was something popular back then, to have your own car. That car got me in more trouble (laughter) just being in the ninth grade. God, that’s trouble for a ninth-grader to have his own car. And I would pick the girls up because they rode with me, because I had a car, on the weekend. I had a car. All of those were my friends. Mr. Oliver Hewitt’s wife -- I’m trying to remember her name now. Oliver Hewitt’s wife. I was schooling with his boys ; all of us went to school together, and she would come over there every evening and pick her boys up. And I would leave the house going in that car. I had on blast (inaudible), tires spinning, burning rubber. And she’d call Mama every day and tell on me. “Larry left school acting crazy in that car, just showing off.” And every time I’d get home, Mama would be waiting on me. Boy, that car got me in a lot of trouble. But her brother was the reason I joined the Marine Corps. I joined the Marine Corps because I told my mama -- I said, “If I’m going to Vietnam, I want to be trained by the best,” and I did. I spent a year in Vietnam during my service of time, and during that year, which was in 1969, was also during the Civil Rights movement. That was going on before I went in service, and even after I got out, it was really hard to deal with. I have spent a year in Vietnam for this country. The last thing the government told me to do. Watched a lot of my friends die, black and white, in this war zone, in a war we shouldn’t have never been there. But we went because the government said we should go. That’s like the worst scenario as a black boy. When you come home from Vietnam, a war like that, and your people are still fighting dogs and hoses and polices for their civil rights, and you asked yourself, “Where do I go from here? Should I be mean and angry? Should I fight? Should I kill somebody? What should I do with this now? I gave all I got. I have nothing else for this country to give. But now I got to come here and fight the dogs and the hoses, pipes, and the polices just because I want to come to a place like the University of Georgia,” where we are now. This place was here then. I wasn’t allowed on this campus. It was here then. The University of Georgia was there then. We wasn’t allowed on the campus. But I could go to Vietnam and fight for this, and that was really marvelous for I was only 20 years old. God almighty. I talked to Mr. Kendall, which was a teacher at that time, Mike Kendall’s daddy. Some of y’all might know him. And he was telling us -- he said, “Caldwell, you can come out here and go to Vocational Tech. You’re a veteran, and they have benefits for you, and the government will pay you.” I said, “Pay me to go to school?” He said, “Yeah, they would pay you to go back to school.” I got a second chance. I went back to school at Griffin Tech. It took me three years to finish a two-year course. For one reason, I broke my leg riding horses during that time I was in school. Plus, I wasn’t the smartest kid in school. I had a learning disability which, back in the ’60s, they didn’t see that like they see it now. It was a struggle for me. When some kids studied a couple of hours, I would be up all night just trying to grasp the basics of this project. That’s what I went through through high school. Guys like Freddy Champion and Larry Ferguson and different friends I had like that, all of us were real close, and we went to class together. And they would tell me, “Caldwell, we’re going to help you through this. We’re going to work together on this.” Anything I didn’t understand, they were like my tutors. They helped me anything I was -- they worked with me. They was my friends. That’s how I finished those two courses at that Griffin Tech -- welding and auto body repair. During the auto body repair, Mr. Walt Pitts with old Pitts and Carter’s grocery store. We had to have projects to work on at the school. He wrecked his truck ; I was at his store one day, and I asked him could I take his truck to school and fix it. It’d give me a project to work on. He said, “How much it going to cost me?” I said, “Very little to nothing because the school just wants you to pay for the material.” When I repaired his truck, he paid the school, and gave me some extra money too, and I realized I could make a living at this. It’s some money in this for me. For years, in that little alley right downtown Griffin, I had me a little body shop back there, me and Reverend Frank Wright. He has his own church now ; we were young boys back then. For years, I had my own body shop back there making pretty good, honest money ; I really was. I made good money, and that’s how my career started as making a living. I stayed there in that body shop. I would work in the body shop during the day. I would work at the mill at night. I was constantly putting in applications at General Motors, and that’s where I ended up at, at General Motors. After three years at Vocational school, with body and fender training with welding, I had landed, through the grace of God -- I had a job working in the largest body shop in the world, which was G.M Assembly Plant. And I stayed there 31 years. After 31 years, because of my vocational training, I landed the highest paying job on the assembly line in the whole body shop, which was head of repair. And I didn’t work on that line. I had a job off the line. They send the cars to me. I fixed them ; I repaired them, and I sent them back to the line because of the training I had at Vocational Tech School. That’s how I struggled to really make my way through life, is making a living. But I tell the guys all the time, a lot of young boys. They used to tell me, “When is General Motors hiring?” They always want to work with General Motors. And I’d tell them, “I was working at the mill when General Motors called me. What are you doing now?” A little work is better than no work. A low paying job is better than no job. They want to have no job and think they can step off the corner inside of a big company like General Motors, and they have nothing to offer. And I tell them how I did it. They don’t want to go to school ; they don’t want to be trained. They just think they can just walk in there and say, “Hire me.” I tried to explain to them, “We have to have something to offer.” I went through that a lot when I was coming up because I was a young man when G.M. hired me, and that’s how I made my living for 31 years, at General Motors. And I took applications in forever trying to get young guys jobs when I worked there. CUNNINGHAM: Well, it sounds like you’ve been trying to influence the next generation, and it sounds like Mr. Kendall played a big part in influencing you to go to Griffin Tech. CALDWELL: Mr. Kendall did. CUNNINGHAM: Mr. Kendall ; that’s what I meant ; I’m sorry. So were there other people that influenced your life as a young man growing up here in Griffin? CALDWELL: Yes. When I was in junior high school, Miss Harps was one of my teachers. She was always very nice. She always had patience. I remember her having patience with me because I wasn’t the smarter person. I wasn’t the one that sat right in front of her desk. I wasn’t an A student ; you hear me? I got back as far as I could because I was a slow learner, but she always had patience with me ; I remember that. Her -- Mr. William Walker were the principals and they sit up on top of the hill at junior high school. He was a kind and gentle man when we was in school, and he treated us with fairness and kindness. Although he was the principal -- he was the principal -- he wasn’t a mean man. All the way through elementary school and stuff, most all the principals were real mean. If you go up to the principal’s office, it ain’t like the school that it is now. As a young boy, they beat the socks off you. Any little thing you done, you got a whooping. Amen. Mr. Walker wasn’t like that. He didn’t believe in the belt. He’d talk to you ; he’d lecture to you. “Young man, come here. Young man, just, young man, let me tell you something. Young man, this is what you’re going to do. You’re going to come up fine.” You know, he just -- Mr. Walker broke you down and made you feel conscious about what you did because he let you know there was a better way. He wasn’t a disciplinarian ; he was a teacher. He made you see your faults. He made you think about it. He made you want to be better. He embarrassed you for getting in trouble. That’s the way Mr. Walker were. He was that kind of man. He made you feel ashamed for getting in trouble, and you didn’t want to go there no more because you wanted him to respect you and look up to you. I don’t want to go to Mr. Walker’s office no more because he don’t like that. He don’t like that trouble. CRUICKSHANK: Now, this was at Fairmont High? CALDWELL: Mr. Walker was up there on the hill at junior high school. That was junior high. WALKER-HARPS: Kelsey. CALDWELL: Kelsey, yeah. People like him, Sam Bass, a lot of military guys went in. One of my church member’s sons got killed in Vietnam. Joe Baker, a friend of mine, he was in the Navy. He came home from Vietnam. It shows you how the war can mess a man up so bad. He killed himself, Joe Baker. Me and him were going to Griffin Tech together. And almost killed his wife -- he tried to kill his wife and himself. Hey, Miss Walker, you remember Mrs. Dobbs? WALKER-HARPS: Mm-hmm. I remember. CALDWELL: She lived and he died. That’s how the military was sending guys home back then, Vietnam. From the first ten years I came home from Vietnam, all I did was drink alcohol and head around to clubs for the first ten years, not knowing I was suffering from post-traumatic stress, war fatigue because my medicine was alcohol. That’s the way I came home from Vietnam. I didn’t know this until I talked to the psychiatrist. I was telling her I had been out of service ten years before I started having nightmares about Vietnam. And she asked me, “Well, what happened between the one and ten when you came home?” I told her, “I stopped drinking.” As I grew up and got older, I put all that foolishness behind me. I stopped drinking, stopped hanging around the clubs every weekend, stuff like that. I saw this young girl I wanted to marry, which went to their church I had invested in. I had turned my whole life around, and I started having nightmares because I wasn’t drunk. WALKER-HARPS: Did the church play an important role with you at that time or not? CALDWELL: Yes, yes. WALKER-HARPS: That was Reverend Harris? CALDWELL: Reverend Harris was my pastor. Reverend James was my friend. My wife went to Eighth Street where Reverend James was preaching. Pastor Harris was my preacher, my pastor on Boyds Row. I spent about as much time at Eighth Street than I did Boyds Row because I really loved this young girl. Well, she’s my wife today. (knocks on wood) Jesus Christ, we’ve been together for 40-some years, been married 30 of them. And I got to be good friends with Reverend James and the deacons because I spent so much time over there chasing my wife. Reverend James would tell me when he was out of town, “Larry, bring me the choir to me,” because at that time, the church didn’t have a van. I had a van because I working at General Motors. I was using the van and partying to chase girls. (laughter) I would bring the choir to him. Every weekend, he out of town, I’d load the choir up in my van. I’d been saying, “Get all the beer cans and all that stuff out of my van,” before I took the choir, still chasing behind my wife. A lot of them beer cans were hers too. (laughter) As time went on for years, that went by. One week, Reverend James was on revival. And you know, when you’re a friend of a preacher, it’s like, “He ain’t talking to me ; he’s talking to y’all. I’m his friend. He ain’t preaching to me. Me and his buddies ; I know his little secrets and he knows my little secrets.” You know what I mean? I listened to him one week. I actually listened to that man preach. It changed my whole life ; it changed my whole life. And that’s when me and my wife both -- I told her, “We got to get saved. We got to turn our lives around. What we’re doing ain’t going to work.” We were partying so hard at that time, I was afraid to go to her with that because I knew what we had to give up. And he said, “Seeing is fun. When you feeding the flesh, that’s fun.” She said, “I’m tired too.” She said, “Let’s go to church and get it right.” Up under Reverend James and Pastor Harris, we both got saved. Reverend James married us, and we’re still together today. They was going to make me a deacon at Eighth Street ; all I had to do was join the church. And my pastor found out about that, Reverend Harris. He heard ; he got wind of it, and he (inaudible). Yeah, he got me out of that claw before they got me, and I’ve been there ever since. And as time went by, my wife did join my church, and we’re still together now serving under Pastor Sewell. Pastor Harris, he passed away. Reverend James done passed away too. They both dead and gone, but we’re still in church. As did the lady sang the song, “You Yet Holding On,” we yet holding on. And that was -- that played a big part in my life as people in the neighborhood. It was teachers like Mr. Tucker in high school. He was concerned about us. Mr. Tucker would fuss and raise sand about stuff, you know, trying to keep us in straight. Mr. Tucker would like this here. At Fairmont High School, we would sneak off campus, as they say cutting class. We would sneak off campus, and Mr. Tucker saw you, because he was a tall man, he would run you down. He’d come get you. If he caught you, he’d come get you. Mr. Tucker wasn’t afraid of you, brung you right back to school. I look back at that and I realize he was concerned. Because he could have just looked at us and said, “Let them go off,” but he brought us back, made us come back to school. Teachers like that, they was really concerned as we was coming up, really cared about us. I think about Mr. Tucker a lot. I remember Miss Harps as a -- back then she was Miss Walker, Miss Jewel Walker. All the boys in the room had a little crush on her -- my middle school teacher. (laughter) And she was good to us. You know what I mean? And we liked her. (laughs) And the boys said, “I like her.” (laughs) That’s the way it was when you was coming up. You had crushes on your school teachers. I mean you didn’t know no better. You know what I mean? This lady ain’t staring at you. You’re just a child ; you can’t even feed yourself. (laughter) But we did as young boys, and I remember her and teachers like Mr. Walker like that when we was coming up. They played a big part of, you know, in school influencing us. They kept us going, and we wouldn’t give up because of their kindness. And Miss Harps now, that’s why she’s the head of NAACP. She care about people -- still care about people. See what I’m saying? She’s still stressed. She don’t have to do what she’s doing. She care about people. It’s just the way she is. Some people -- WALKER-HARPS: Now, you’ve raised some children. How many children do you have? CALDWELL: I have two: one boy and one girl. My daughter, Ophelia, she graduated from Savannah -- CUNNINGHAM: Savannah State. CALDWELL: Savannah State, yeah, and she’s living in Atlanta. She’s a psychiatrist ; she finished school. I made sure she went to college because I didn’t want her to struggle the way I did, and I realized she was real smart. She finished college in three years, 4.0 average. She called me that third year, and she said, “I finished all of my courses.” She said, “They’re going to make me come to school one more year to take one class,” because they wouldn’t give it to her. They made her come one year to take one class. I said, “Since you ain’t got but one class for that whole year, you got my permission to take that one class and have you some fun because you’ve done everything that I asked you to do.” She did that. She was Who’s Who. She was on the Dean’s List Cum Laude. She did everything she could do. And I can’t remember how many ropes that child had around her neck when they called her name on that stage to get her degree. That was one of the proudest days of my life. And my son -- you ever ate at the chicken at this business downtown, Just Wings? That’s his business. He owns that chicken place, Just Wings, and he did all right. He come up crazy. It took a long time, a lot of praying for that boy to get him out of the streets dealing with the drug dealers and dealing with drugs and stuff like that. But by and by, he realized going to jail ain’t what it look like. It’s best to work for a living. Couple times going to jail, he straightened up then. Now, he got two businesses. A lot of prayer and love for that boy, that boy of mine, that Demarcus Allen. He own Just Wings and he got a trucking company. They just bought a house in Heron Bay, and he won’t pay for the golf privileges because he don’t play golf and I play golf. And I said, “What good’s going to do you living in Heron Bay if you ain’t going to let me come up there and play golf?” (laughter) You moved up on the hill but you ain’t taking me up on the hill with you. You know I want to go with you. They don’t think about that, little kids. WALKER-HARPS: Now, you’ve got some grandchildren I admire. There’s somebody in that you raise or help raise I see you with all the time, some grandchildren. CALDWELL: Joshua, my little grandboy Joshua. He live with me. We practically adopted him because I saw him as me as a little boy coming up. His situation wasn’t the best. It wasn’t the best. Family, poor income, living in the worst scenario a child could live in at his age. That was my son’s boy by another girl. And we just practically took him in our home and raised him because I could look at him coming up and the situation he was in. I could only see myself. I said, “Somebody’s got to save this child. Somebody’s got to do something for him.” And me and my wife, we took it on myself to keep him. He live with us right now today. He’s in middle school now. And I have three more grandkids by my daughter Ophelia. Ophelia’s oldest boy, the one that goes to Mount Zion, the psychiatrist, apparently they call it a profession. What they call that when somebody want everything perfect? CUNNINGHAM: Oh, perfectionist? CALDWELL: Yes, perfectionist. He can’t stand it. It’s got be lined up. It’s really got them two lined up. (laughter) It ain’t right. That’s the way he is. He’s that way about his homework. He’ll come home crying because he made a B. He thinks you’re supposed to get an A in everything. I tell him, “Boy, you ain’t Einstein. You’re not going to get all A’s all the time, but you’re passing.” Right now at the school, they are testing him because they literally don’t know exactly what is IQ is because he’s so beyond the grade level that he’s in. In the summertime when school closed -- I forgot which (inaudible) Atlanta. One little college that my daughter was telling me, that’s where he goes to school during the summertime. He goes to some school with the college kids. What they be testing him on, I don’t know how they do that, but just how they -- because he’s so smart. And my one daughter by my son, Shebria, she done finished college. When she was in high school, they would pay her to let them test her. She was getting paid to take tests. And I asked her, “Don’t you get,” -- she’d spend all her salaries up and down taking tests. And at the end of the section, then they’d go and write her a check. And I said, “Bri Bri, don’t you get caught up here, Bri.” Shebria was her name. “Don’t you get tired of that anxiety?” She said, “They give me these tests, just which is so easy, and they’re paying me.” She said, “I don’t mind doing it.” And I asked the lady one time, I said, “Why do y’all test? Why you want her? Why you choose her to be tested?” She said, “Because we look at her grades and how she do on these tests and we use that to test other kids. It’s because she’s extraordinary smart.” And I didn’t understand the strategies behind that, but they would look at her grades and how she made on the test, and somehow they used that to test other kids with. And they paid her for that. I was proud of her. That’s what she did every Saturday. She would go there and took little tests. Little grandkids -- I’m proud of all my grandkids, and I love them, and I don’t have to tell them. I don’t have to tell them. I was sitting on my deck and I was playing ; Ophelia got two twins. I was just playing with them. And he asked me -- he said, “Granddaddy, why do you love us so much?” Them children, that’s one time I was speechless. I looked at that boy and I said, “How can I explain to you how much I love you when there’s no limit to it?” That’s what he didn’t understand. It’s no limit to how much I love you. I can’t -- and they said, “This much?” I don’t know. How can I count it? (inaudible) is east from the south and the south is from the north. The kids wouldn’t understand that. I will love you as long as I got breath in my body. He asked me, “Why do you love us so much?” And I do ; I love them. I love them so much, my daughter, my kids, my family. WALKER-HARPS: You, you had a rough life, rough childhood sort of, but you came out to make a success out of it, and you’ve got a testimony. So I have to say that that is what happened to your children. There must have been something in your home or in the environment surrounding them for them to turn out. They didn’t automatically turn out to be a success. Even the young man Joshua came to realize what he needed to be. CALDWELL: Yeah. WALKER-HARPS: So would you -- am I right? Would you think that you experiences led you to be the kind of man that could direct them to the point that they would be the kind of children that they are today? CALDWELL: Yes. WALKER-HARPS: Had you been different, perhaps they would have been different. CALDWELL: Yes. WALKER-HARPS: But you have lived, as my mama would say, through all of it, and you’ve sowed all your seeds so you were ready to be a father and a grandfather. CALDWELL: My mother -- I think I got it from my mama. When I was just a young boy, when I first started working at General Motors, I lived with my mother before -- excuse me -- before I got married. Living with Mama, working for a company like General Motors, I had no bills, no debt, making more money than I needed, just having a good time with it. My sister had three kids, and they was in the worst scenario that a child could be in. And that really bothered my mama a whole lot. It really did. And I told her to go get them. I said, “Go get them, Mama, if that bothers you. You take them from her, and I dare tell you, what you eat, they going to eat. I will make sure it’s a plenty there for all of you.” And it was no problem for me because I was single with a good job. I bought -- at that time, I was paying two car notes: one for me, and one for my mama. No problem. I had nothing else to do with my money ; I was living with Mama. I made sure she had everything she wanted, and when I saw her concerned about those kids, I told her to go get them. And I took care of those kids and my mama. I think I got that spirit from her, to always reach back for your family members that you can take care or help. Do what you can to help your loved ones through their struggle. Just because you’ve made it through the gap, you always have to help others get there. You just can’t think about self all the time, and that’s the way I was brought up. I took care of Mama and my sister’s kids. WALKER-HARPS: Okay. I hope Doctor Sewell is using what you have to offer there with those children who are still coming from Spring Hill and Edgewood and whatever. I’ve not been -- I’ve not talked to him lately. I know him and I will be talking to her, but what I’m saying to you, you have a testimony, and I’d like to think that you are using it to help. You’ve helped your children, your grandchildren, but I’d like to think that somebody is using you and allowing you to have that kind of influence on some of these other children out there. CALDWELL: Okay. I have three little boys that belong to the younger church members in my church. They’re young boys that can still have babies -- not my age. They got three little boys, and every day, every Sunday after church, they’re looking for me. They want to come up there with me because the deacons have to sit where the pastors can see us. If something’s going wrong or whatever, we’re right there and it’s a small church. They don’t know they can’t come up there during church services, but they want to. As soon as church service is over, here they come, all three of them. Bam, they’re all over me because I spend a lot of time with them and I play with them and I talk to them. As kids, if you can get on their level, they’ll listen to you. You can’t go up to a child all the time being an adult. Sometimes you got to think on their level. And everybody ask me at church, “Why those boys crawling up your leg every Sunday and you can’t move from them?” Because I get on their level and talk to them, and I play with them. And I understand as a little boy that kind of attention because I had a strong, big daddy, and he was a big man, and he wore overall pants. And he would get off work when I was a little boy at the mill, and he would buy raisin cakes for me on the way home. But I had to find it. He had so many pockets in them overalls. I had to climb all over to find that pile. It would just tickle him to death for me to look for it, you know, because he was such a big man. And I treat the kids like that today, you know. Even at my church, I would ask their parents, “Is it all right if I give them 20 dollars or whatever?” Because I know they’re in school and stuff, and I’d give them money and stuff like that and tell them, “You know you have to work, you know, to earn your money.” I said, “I’m going to help you, but you got to go to school and work, you know?” And I try to be as good as helper for them. And I teach them ; I catch them cutting up in church. I stop them, talk to them about it, but they love me, and my grandboy gets a little jealous of that sometimes because he don’t want to share me like that. But those little boys, they are -- I tried to (inaudible). But I told one young lady. She fussed at her son all the time because he wanted to sit up front. I said, “Leave him alone.” I said, “If he wants to come up here, just leave him alone.” I said, “You never know ; he might be a preacher. He might be a deacon. You don’t know what reason it is he’s got this burning desire to come up here. He wants to be up here.” I said, “Let it run its course. We’ll see what will come from it.” Said, “Let it run it ; let him come. We’ll see where he goes with it.” Might be a preacher ; you never know. Might be a preacher. CAIN: So since this is going to be around 100 years from now, would you want to say a little bit about your grandparents or great-grandparents if you know them? CALDWELL: My grandparents? CAIN: Yeah. CALDWELL: My grandparents -- my grandfather -- I didn’t know about grandmother ; she died when my mother was a little girl. And I did see my grandfather. His name was George Washington Vandergriff, and him and Mr. AC Testone, which I know some of y’all probably remember him ; he’s passed now. Him and Mr. Testone was good friend as young mans. And Mr. Testone told me one night, because I had got in some trouble, and Mama sent Mr. Testone to get me out of jail because she knew him. I was just young and wild. He said, “Man, I knew your grandfather.” I said, “Papa?” He said, “Yeah, I knew your granddaddy.” I go, “Tell me something about him.” He said, “When we was young men,” he said, “your grandfather would not farm. He would not sharecrop because he knew there wasn’t no fairness in sharecropping. They weren’t going to treat him fair.” I said, “Well, how did he make a living?” He said, “Your granddaddy made syrup and he made bootleg whiskey. That’s how he made his money.” He said, “George Washington Vandergriff had so much money because he didn’t farm. He didn’t work on the farm. He made syrup.” Back then, not just making syrup for himself, he would go around to every farm and make everybody syrup because he knew how to cook it. That was a gift he had. On every plantation otherwise, he would cook the syrup for them. And he sold white whiskey. He said my granddaddy had a wagon, which they called a surrey. Was sharper than any car that you could have bought at that day and time because he had the money. He said he had a motorcycle. Back then, didn’t too many guys ride a motorcycle. The plower was (inaudible) hit in your head hard. It had to be. He was telling me some things back then about my granddaddy, and I was telling him, “I wish Papa had bought land with all that money he was carrying back then because if he had bought the land, we’d have been like Mr. Testone into the land.” He bought land. That’s why he got his wealth ; he bought land. And our stepmother wouldn’t let him buy land. I learned that through him because his children wasn’t her children. She carried the money on her on a money belt under her dress -- his money. She wouldn’t let him buy land, but he owned everything else: cars and motorcycles and... He said a surrey is a wagon you see on TV. You see the little balls hanging around it and stuff like that. The seat real decorated. It’s just not an ordinary wagon. It’s a sharp wagon. And he said my daddy had one that looked better than any car that was on the road. That much I learned about my granddaddy when he was coming up. He was a little-bitty man, but he was a tough little man, you know. He wore overalls and he carried a big old pistol. And Mama noticed him. He had a pistol so big it would just pull his pants down from behind. And he would leave the house walking back to Orchard Hill the way he had been drinking. He’d gotten back drunk, and my daddy told him, “George, you got to straighten up going through town like that. You can’t go through town drunk like that. The police is going to stop you.” He told him, “I’m going straight through town, and I ain’t going to walk no better,” because he didn’t care. That’s the way my granddaddy was. He didn’t care. Said he’s going straight through town. A little bitty proud man, but he made his own money. We didn’t farm ; he didn’t sharecrop ; he didn’t crop ; he didn’t pick the cotton and all stuff like that. He made syrup and made white liquor, and he had plenty of money. I learned that about my granddaddy and I always wondered when we were little boys, he always would buy Mama cars. Papa had money. He always would buy Mama a car, make sure we had something to ride in. We would go see him in Orchard Hill. He always kept her a car. That’s what I remember about my granddaddy. And I was just a young boy standing beside his bed when he took his last breath. That was the first time I ever seen a person actually die. You can hear him breathing all over the house. I knew something was wrong because Mama and everybody was there, and I knew it had something to do with Papa. But I didn’t know he was going to die that night. I knew he had been sick, but I was standing by the bed just looking at him. And I’m like, “Why Papa be in such a quiet mood?” And he was breathing so hard. And I just got to the point where I was just staring at him. I never took my eyes off him. And then just out of nowhere, he just took his last breath. CRUICKSHANK: What year was that? CALDWELL: I can’t remember. I was so young ; I was just a boy, just a little boy. I was probably about 11, 12 years old, if I was that old. I’m 69 now. That was about, oh, 60 years ago, yeah. I was only about eight, nine years old when that happened. WALKER-HARPS: You’ve talked about syrup a lot. What was it used for other than the biscuits? CADWELL: Syrup? WALKER-HARPS: Mm-hmm, and did they use it to make bootleg whiskey? Or what was it? What was the main... I grew up with syrup too, but we just used it for cooking. CALDWELL: Most of the syrup was for cooking, and different types of syrup, they was using for sweetener. And this -- I’ll think of it in a minute. It’s an old fashioned syrup they used for cooking, but the regular syrup, it was just for consuming, like bread or eating it for breakfast on your pancakes and stuff like that now. And they got this syrup ; they use it now when they make baked beans. It’s -- I don’t like to use it, but it’s a black syrup. WALKER-HARPS: Cane patch? CALDWELL: Yeah, one of them like that they used. They put it in baked beans and stuff like that. Now, depending on what you were cooking, they would pour that syrup in it. But to tell you the truth, there wasn’t no syrup companies really, back in the early days. Most all the syrup was made at some farm somewhere because you couldn’t afford to buy cane patch out of the store, different brands like that. You couldn’t afford to buy that syrup. They sold their homemade syrup, which was better. It tasted better. CUNNINGHAM: I’m going to backtrack a little bit to talk a little bit about the Civil Rights Movement. Were you a participant or how did you participate in the Civil Rights Movement? CALDWELL: I remember when Dr. King was assassinated, and as a young boy, that night, all over Griffin, the skyline was lit up. Everything made out of wood was burning. If it was made out of wood, it was burning. They was -- the black was so mad when Dr. King was assassinated. They began looting ; there were riots and burning. It was a few black businesses in the black neighborhoods, but the only one they didn’t burn down, because you needed that store -- that’s where you’d buy your groceries. (inaudible) was the one that survived that night. That went on for several weeks before they got law and order. Every night, it was burning. I remember that as a little boy. Every night, it was burning. I remember when Jesse Jackson came to Griffin. I remember when Hosea Williams came to Griffin. They came down here on a march. Remember that wagon and mule? Hosea Williams, you know, we was just young boys that year. And they had a movement where all the blacks left the school and they marched over to Griffin High School because of integration and segregation. At that time, I was in Vietnam. I was about 19 years old when all that was going on. I was in Vietnam then. I didn’t see all that. I heard about it when I come home. Stuff like that was going on, and they would tell us to march. They would tell us to go march this store, like Woodward, downtown Griffin. Woodward had a water fountain in the back of the store, had the back of it clear as day. White and black: white only water fountain, but you could buy their product out of the store. I remember stuff like that coming up during the Civil Rights Movement. And they would put the kids out there because if we went to jail, we were just somebody they had to feed. But if they locked my daddy up, he couldn’t go to work, the bills couldn’t run, you know, stuff like that. So they just didn’t picket ; they used different strategies on them. We’ll put the kids out there. (inaudible) have something with no kids. All you got is a mouth to feed. They ain’t got to go to work Monday morning. You know what I mean? You ain’t hurting nobody. You just got to bust your kids free. And they stopped locking them up because of that because they realized, “This? We can’t win like this. Locking the kids up don’t work.” That’s what we was going through during the Civil Rights Movement. We would get out front because our parents couldn’t afford to go to jail. They couldn’t be locked up and stuff like that. When I -- where I grew up there on the south side, what they called Spring Hill, it’s right next to the golf course and the city park. They had a pool down there, an Olympic-size pool. We used to be canning and watch those kids go swimming in that pool, but we could not get in that pool. There were three black guys that went down there one day. One of them was named Ben. Ben was rough cut, didn’t back off from death for nobody. I can’t remember who were the guys with him. They walked into that pool and got into that water with nobody’s permission. When they saw that happen in Griffin, they knew then the blacks were going to follow suit. They’re coming ; they’re coming just like these two, three guys boasted their way into here. They’re coming. The city commissioners and all of them in Griffin began to meet. They buried that pool. It’s a football field down there now where they practice football. Up under that ground is an Olympic-size pool. They filled it with dirt ; they filled it with dirt before they let us swim in it. And I’m going to share something that a lot of people in Griffin probably don’t know about the city of Griffin’s swimming pool. The pool we have today, me, Willie Lewis, John Arthur with the police department -- he was a police officer. He was our supervisor at the pool. We were the first lifeguards to work at that pool. I think one guy they called him Muletrain ; worked for the fire department. He done passed now. WALKER-HARPS: He’s dead. CALDWELL: Y’all might know Muletrain. All of us was fighting ; all of us was lifeguards, young boys working at the pool. And I could never understand ; in front of the pool, it didn’t have Griffin Pool. It was Greek letters hanging over the door like a sorority. I’m saying like, “What this got to do with the city pool?” And every year, when we’d open the pool up, this well dressed gentleman -- you know how some people just look like when they got money? Driving this black Buick, big deuce and a quarter Buick. He would come in there and he would ask us, “How you like your job down here? How do you like working down here? How the conditions are?” I said, “Oh, man, we love it. It’s easy money. It’s no problem. Being a lifeguard is easy.” He said, “What you like about it the best working for the city as a lifeguard?” I said, “It’s a good job and you’re real popular with the girls when you’re a lifeguard.” (laughter) And he just laughed. He said, “I bet y’all are,” just like that. “I bet y’all are.” And that guy, when he left, I noticed the front of his tag had those same Greek letters that’s hanging over the pool. They done moved those Greek letters now. They’re not there now. So we start asking questions about it. What connection this guy got with the pool? We found out the city of Griffin did not build that pool. Technically, that pool is not in the park. Think about it. You know where the pool is in Griffin? It’s at the entrance of the park ; it’s not in the park. It’s at the entrance when you enter the park. They never did build it back in the park because the city did not pay for it. That young gentleman that came down there from that little Greek that was on his car -- I can’t remember what sorority it was -- they paid for that pool. The city financed the land, and the city did want us to manage it. The city paid us to lifeguard, but that Greek organization that he was in actually built that pool and put it there for the blacks to have somewhere to swim. That’s why those Greek letters were hanging over that door. We couldn’t understand what these Greek letters got to do with the city pool. They done moved them now, though. They grown. They not there anymore. WALKER-HARPS: So you have no idea who the man was? CALDWELL: We never -- all I knew the white gentleman come in, dressed real nice, and he always questioned about how we liked working, how we was being treated. And he would ask those questions every year. He’d done that several years. He stopped showing up, and we found out that they were the ones that built the pool, that sorority he was in. They built that pool there, not the city. They’d done that so the blacks would have a swimming pool. WALKER-HARPS: Hmm. Never heard that before. CAIN: Was this a black person who -- was this the person black or white? CALDWELL: The guy was a white gentleman, but he built the pool for everybody. But they wouldn’t let him put it in the park because they didn’t want the blacks then swimming in the pool in the park. So right there where it sat down, that’s the closest he could get it -- the entrance of the park. It’s really not in the park. It’s right there next to it. It used to be the old health department. And we found that out and we worked there as lifeguards. They sent us out to the S club to get certified because they had guys out there that could certify lifeguards. We went out to the S club to get certified as lifeguards. But the pool was there for blacks and whites really. But [01:07:00] it was a Greek organization, this Greek club. These boys with them Greek letters, this sorority, they were the one built that pool, not the city of Griffin. All the city of Griffin did was they overseed it. They paid us to lifeguard, stuff like that, but the city of Griffin didn’t do that. Sure didn’t. They didn’t do it. How they come about doing it, I don’t know, but they had to have a lot of money. It took a lot of money to build that pool. It’s a big, nice pool. WALKER-HARPS: Was that the same time that they filled the one on over at Fairmont? CALDWELL: Yeah. Yeah, they filled both of them up. They covered them both up, sure did. They covered the one we did have up and the one in the park because they said, “They can’t swim in the one in the park.” They was going to cover them. You can’t cover up one ; cover up both of them, and that’s what they’d done to keep us from swimming together. They keep us from swimming together. Just like, when we was in school, Griffin High School football team was never really heard of or known. They were the Griffin Eagles, and we used to talk about them all the time. They just wouldn’t win. They just wouldn’t beat nobody. They were just the Griffin Eagles. We were playing schools like Atto -- (inaudible). Atto was a farm school. All them guys were old enough to be in college, but they were just for farm school because they was in trouble. Might well had to sit in jail, but they had a football team. Forget about playing teams like that ; them boys didn’t take no prisoner. We were playing different schools from different places all over town ; it was tough. Griffin High didn’t have that kind of competition because just back then, all those schools was all black, and they were playing schools that was all white. They integrated Griffin High School. Y’all won’t believe this, son. The guy’s alive right now today. He was the first black guy to put on Griffin High’s uniform. His name is Marvin Martin. I could go put my hands on him right now. Marvin Martin, he was the first black guy to play for Griffin High. We used to go up to the game just to see Marvin play because he was the first black to be an Eagle that played after they integrated schools, after the Eagles. They would set down and Griffin High were losing. I mean just flat out losing, and he was on the bench. We sat there and we would chant, “Marco, Marco, Marco,” because his name was Marvin Martin. The coach would put him in. Marco outran them. Down the field he would go. (laughter) They’d catch him on the ten, five-yard line, (inaudible). Coach put him out. Put him out because none of those boys in the backfield get that ball in across that goal line. They’d take him out the game. Wouldn’t even score. Wouldn’t let him score. Take him out the game, and Griffin High were losing. We watched that week after week after week. They would give that boy that ball, and this is the sad part about it. They did not block for him. They did not block for him on purpose. He was just that fast. When he got that ball, he was on his own, and he made it work. Down the field he would go. Get in his scoring position. Instead of them giving the ball to him and letting him score, coach would take him out the game, and we would sit there and boo and raise all kind of sand ; it didn’t make no difference. Griffin High were losing. Had one of the best running backs to this day, Marvin Martin, and we’re losing. Wouldn’t let him play ; wouldn’t let him play. They came up out of the recreational department, a young boy named -- they called him Q Ball. They discovered this boy in the recreational department playing rec ball. He could throw the football from one end of the field to the other with no effort at all. Couldn’t nobody run that distance and catch it, but he could throw it. Got to Griffin High ; wouldn’t let him play. Wouldn’t let him play. If they let that boy play, with his ability, he would have graduated All-American. They’re losing ; Q Ball’s sitting on the bench. WALKER-HARPS: Q Ball. CALDWELL: You know him ; you remember Q Ball. WALKER-HARPS: Yeah, I remember. Yeah, he’s (overlapping dialogue ; inaudible). CALDWELL: He’s sitting on the bench ; they’re losing. One of the best quarterbacks in high school ; wouldn’t let him play. They didn’t want him to graduate All-American. That’s what would have happened because he had that kind of a talent. He could flat out throw that ball. They would not let him play. We sniffed that stuff like that coming up. It was after the school was even integrated, the athletes that were there, they wouldn’t let him play. The coaches wouldn’t do it because just like now, if you’re an All-American athlete in high school today, you get a full ride to college. The scholarships, the money was there, even back then. If you graduated All-American, you were black. The colleges then was integrated, trying to be. A few of them was. Colleges were looking at black ball players. They didn’t want that to happen because he’d have been All-American. Somebody would have picked him up. If not white colleges, one of the blacks was. Sure would. I remember watching a movie about Bear Bryant when they -- first time they played as a college that had black ball players. And Bear Bryant told them -- this was a true story of Bear Bryant -- and we saw this. I witnessed this as young boys coming up. I can’t remember the name of the school. They beat the socks off Alabama. Them boys in the locker room called the n-word this and the n-word that because they was all white, Alabama. Bear Bryant stand back and just looking at them in the locker room. And he told them -- they had this in his movie -- he said, “Y’all are sitting there with your head down complaining, how they’re n-word this and their n-word down.” He said, “Next year, half of y’all jobs going to be replaced by some black ball players.” He said, “I got to win.” He said, “I’m going to replace y’all. Half of y’all going to be gone next year.” He said, “I got to get them black boys if I’m going to keep winning.” And that’s what Alabama done, and they never looked back. Even he saw it -- Bear Bryant saw it -- the athletes that the black guys were. He said, “We can’t beat them, not with an all white team. We can’t beat them boys like that.” They was black and white. There was too much gifts out there ; too much talent. Beat the socks off Alabama. Bear Bryant saw it too. He said, “I can’t go out there like this. I’m going to lose my job.” And we saw all of that coming up, integration and how the blacks had to struggle to try to make it, how they really had to struggle. I was reading about Mahalia Jackson, one of the greatest spiritual singers ever lived. Everybody knew Mahalia. Her husband had a college degree. Back in that day and time, the only job he could get with a college degree was a bill carrier for the post office carrying bills. That’s the only job he could get that paid pretty fair wages, a bill carrier. You don’t need a college degree to deliver mail. If you can read and count one through ten -- that’s somebody’s address -- you can deliver mail. See what I’m saying? That’s the only job he could get with a college degree. Blacks have struggled, even the ones in higher positions. You’d think that they would have it pretty good until you read the history and what they went through and how things were. But the most baffling thing to me was Pearl Harbor. And we sat there and watched those Japanese play golf, go in the clubhouse, buy them a cold soda, drink out the water fountain. These people have killed Americans. These people have brought tears to this country, and they have better rights and privileges than we have. All that coming up as a young boy, it was pretty rough. Even in the Marine Corps, we were called names and all kind of vulgar names. And during training, the training was hard enough as it was, but being verbally abused and physically abused, about as bad as one about as bad as the other one. They wouldn’t put their hands on us, but the thing they would say to you was worse than a whip because they wanted you to quit. The Marine Corps was like this ; they felt like wasn’t nobody good enough to be a Marine, black or white. You had to earn your way in there. You had to fight your way to be a Marine. You had to show them that you were qualified to be a Marine. And if you was black, you had to show them two times that you could be a Marine because you caught twice as much hell being black -- twice as much hell. But black guys made it ; they made it. I’ll never forget ; one day I was coming from the PX and I saw this one black guy. He was an officer, black Marine. He had one star. He was a one-star general. I looked at that boy till he got out of sight. I couldn’t believe it. I said, “It’s hope for us. It is hope for us out there somewhere.” He had one star, but he did have a star. He was a general, and I just couldn’t believe it. It was just amazing. I’d look at that young man and realized he was hope for me. I said, “It’s hope for us out there.” He was a one-star general. Sure was. I’d never saluted a man with so much pride in my life when I walked by that boy. Sure did. Things like that -- now we got guys in the military, black guys with all kind of ranking, all kind of officers. They take it for granted, but they don’t know the struggle, even in the military, to get where they are today, what the guy that was there first, what they went through -- what they went through. CRUICKSHANK: Where does all the hate come from? CALDWELL: Huh? CRUICKSHANK: Where does all the hate come from? CALDWELL: The hate? CRUICKSHANK: Yeah. CALDWELL: What we could see when we was coming up, it didn’t make no sense. Like, you don’t really know me, but you hate me because I’m black. I couldn’t explain that, just because we were different colors back in the ’60s. We didn’t do nothing that no other, young teenagers do. All my daddy did was work like any other man worked, but we was just black. How could you hate a person because they’re black and you’re white? That we didn’t understand. The hate, where it came from, I don’t understand it because it has to be taught, in a way. You have to be taught because... I saw a commercial one time on TV, and they was trying to sell this product. And their floor was full of babies -- black babies, white babies, Mexican babies, all kind of babies. And they were selling this product they were trying to sell. All these babies was playing and hugging and kissing on each other because they knew no hate. They were innocent at that time. But somewhere in their life, somebody got to tell them, had to teach them this hatred. When I was a young man at the store, at the Kroger’s -- old, old Kroger’s store before they moved -- this young lady was in line with me and had a baby in her arms that was old enough to talk but it was just a baby. And I’m in line standing behind this white lady and her baby over her shoulder looking right in my face. You know how babies stare at you anyway ; they’re going to do that. And I’m saying to myself, “I hope I ain’t the first black man that she’s going to see.” She was just staring at me, and she let me knew she wasn’t the first black baby. That baby raised her head up off her mama’s shoulder and looked right at in her mama’s face because that’s what her mama taught her. She said, “Mama, it’s a (language) back here.” Everybody in the store heard it. I said, “Oh my God.” She was telling the baby, “Hush. You hush your mouth. You hush your mouth.” I told her just like this, “You taught her that. Now, you telling her to hush.” I said, “She don’t know what she’s saying because she’s just a baby.” You see what I’m saying here? I said, “You taught her that, ma’am. Now you want to make her hush.” It embarrassed her more than it did me. Everybody in the store heard it. That little baby said, “Mama, there’s a (language) back here.” I said, “Good God.” She taught her that. Sure did. When you -- that’s why Mama would tell us, “Don’t curse around kids. Don’t curse ; them children hear you cursing and staying stuff because they pick it up then learn it from you.” If you curse, your children are going to curse. If your drink, your kids are going to drink. They’re going to have your habits. A baby can drink more beer right now than you can. I don’t know why babies love beer. Babies love beer. If they see you drinking it, they can pick it up easy. They like it anyway for some reason. But God almighty, you know, that hatred thing is being taught just because. I don’t know what it is. Back in the ’50s and the ’60s, the days, the times I remember, it was so much hatred because you was black. What was so wrong about being black? It makes no sense. I bleed like you bleed ; I hurt like you hurt ; I love like you love. I get hungry just like you do. I get sleepy just like you do. I love my family and my kids and I work for them just like you do. I wouldn’t harm your baby because I got babies. I’m not going to harm your wife because I have a wife. But by me being black, we was feared. Just being black, that made you dangerous. We couldn’t understand that. We got locked up as young boys because the city park, going to the other side of town, we would walk through it because it was quicker to walk through the park than to go all the way around this big old place. And the police is out there security guard. Kids playing all over the park just like me. I was just a child, and they would stop me. Said, “Where you going, boy?” Just like that. I said, “I’m just cutting through to go to my friend’s house.” He said, “You better walk a little faster.” And then we began to run because the police said, “You better walk a little faster,” just because we were black. WALKER-HARPS: Were there many incidents at that time in Griffin with the police? Were there many racial incidents with the police? CALDWELL: Just like that, yeah. WALKER-HARPS: Yeah. CALDWELL: Yeah, yeah. We didn’t have nowhere to go for us, the park and [01:25:00] going to the pool and places the white kids had to go for recreation and stuff like that. We couldn’t go the gym and play ball, down to the park. They wouldn’t allow us at the gym, so we would stay in the cold under the streetlights. And we would sing and play ball or whatever right up under the cold because we wasn’t allowed to go nowhere. And the police would ride through the neighborhood and lock us up because we were standing on the corner. We would go to jail for that. We saw the police coming before they got there. We would have to run, go hide till they go by. We wasn’t allowed to even stand on the corner, but we had nowhere else to go -- nowhere else to go. WALKER-HARPS: Now Samuel, your friend Samuel was one of the first black policeman’s hired, right? Sam Bass? CALDWELL: Sam Bass? WALKER-HARPS: Uh-huh. CALDWELL: Sam Bass and Love... Love. WALKER-HARPS: Love Maddox. CALDWELL: Love Maddox, Sam Bass, and Marvin Barrett, Pop Ellis, and Harry Mullett. They were the first black police officers that worked for the police department, and they were not allowed to lock up white people. That was the rule. They could not lock up white people. They had to call a white officer. But one day, in the alley -- they call it downtown Griffin -- the alley was all black businesses in the alley, and Sam Bass was walking his route as a police officer. He was coming through the alley. Everybody knew Sam. Like I said, he was an ex-Marine, big as a bus, strong as a bull. White guy coming down through the alley drunk -- I don’t know who told that man to hit Sam Bass, but he hit him because he was a black police officer. He had a bad day that day. He had a real bad day when he hit Sam Bass. When they got there to lock him up -- the white officers -- it wasn’t much for him to say because he was knocked out. He hit the wrong police that day. I don’t know why he hit that boy, big as he was, and he was a police officer. Sam put a whooping on that man in one way. He had a bad day. But he couldn’t lock him up. Had to call the white officers to come and get him. It was like that a long time. As integration and segregation got better and better by the laws being passed, see that was not really right to hire a police officer but he can’t lock a white man up. That didn’t last long. That didn’t last long because it really wasn’t right. They did it for a while ; said, “Well, we’ll hire him, but he can’t lock up white people.” That’s what they’d done. That’s what they’d done. But they took the jobs under that situation and those conditions because somebody had to be first, and they were the first ones. They tried to get me to join the police department when I came home from Vietnam. And I told them, “I didn’t... I got by one shooting, and I don’t want to get killed over having a metal, toting a gun.” I said, “I don’t want to be no police officer, man. I would lock up -- who I’m going to lock up? My friends? Everybody that’s around here I know. I don’t want to be no police.” I could only lock up my friends ; I couldn’t do it. I turned it down. But that word hate, I can’t explain it when there was no reason for it, only because I was black. I was black. I was -- my daddy used to cut grass in Experiment when he got off work for this white guy up there. He had a little bitty bulldog. And we used to go up there early in the morning, and I would watch this man cook hamburgers. And he just didn’t make the meat and threw it to the dog. He would fix a complete hamburger with all the trimmings, and his dog was black, and he would feed it to that dog. But me, as a little black boy out there cutting his grass, he’d never offer me a hamburger. Never asked me, “Are you hungry? Do you want a hamburger? Do you want anything to eat?” All of them wasn’t like that because I would tell you about in Experiment about my first banana sandwich. My daddy was cutting grass in a house that lived down below that one because he had seven yards up there he cut grass on. This Saturday morning, this white lady was bringing in her groceries, and she asked me to help her. And Daddy told me, “Go ahead ; help her take her groceries in the house,” and I did. When I got in the house, she had a son in there, a little boy -- me and him about the same age. He watching cartoons on the TV, and I’m still unloading her groceries back and forth from the car. Every time I would walk by that room, I would glimpse at the TV. And I’d go back and get some more groceries. When I’d come by that door, I’m glimpsing at the cartoon. I think she saw me because she told me, “Go in there with my son and watch the TV.” I said, “I got to go out here and work. I got to go help my daddy.” She said, “Don’t worry about it.” She said, “Go in there with him and watch the cartoons.” I ain’t got no problem with that ; it’s hot out there. (laughter) I’m sitting there with the little boy watching cartoons and Daddy’s out there cutting grass. Every now and then, I’d see his head go around the window with that lawn mower ; I’m sitting there watching cartoons. This white lady was nice, you know. Everybody wasn’t mean. And she had brought me a banana sandwich. I never had a banana sandwich. I’ll just have a sandwich. I don’t want bananas in it. I said, “Bananas and bread?” She said, “Taste it.” Had mayonnaise and everything on it. I said, “Ma’am, I don’t think it’s going to come out right.” She said, “Taste it.” And her little son was sitting there eating his sandwich ; me and him both had a banana sandwich. I bit that banana sandwich. Oh, man, I was introduced to a whole new world. I’d been eating them ever since. (laughter) Banana sandwich. But what was so funny, I’m sitting there with the little boy eating that banana sandwich, mayonnaise everywhere, and every now and then I’d see Daddy’s head come by that lawn pushing that lawn mower. That was too funny. He said, “Boy, where you been?” I said, “You told me to help her.” I said, “When I got in there, she told me to sit down and eat.” (laughter) That was funny. Things like that I remember as a little boy. I laugh about it today. Like I watched them cartoons, eating that banana sandwich, watching Daddy’s head go by that window cutting that grass. Boy, that was funny. Stuff like that I remember coming up as a young boy. CRUICKSHANK: But doesn’t that make you wonder, you know, why the difference, you know? CALDWELL: Some people were just nice, and some people were just mean. CRUICKSHANK: But why is that? CALDWELL: I don’t understand why that. She invited me in her house to sit down with her little boy and eat, and she didn’t have no problem with that. And she knew, as a little boy, she didn’t want me out there with Daddy cutting grass. That’s why she did that, so I could get out that heat out there. And she let me sit there with her boy and eat and watch the cartoons. She was a nice lady. Everybody white back during the Civil Rights Movement were not mean or we would not have our rights today. Look at the movies. Look at the tapes. When Dr. King was marching, when they was picketing, there was the whites out there too getting the hose and dogs put on them. Now, the whites was marching with Dr. King and they were throwing them bricks at him. It just wasn’t everybody white hated everybody black. It was a lot of white people who marched with Dr. King -- a lot of them. And let the truth be told. I look at today where we have come from. We have a black president in the White House. Believe me ; the white folks helped us got that black president in that House. Give credit where it’s due. Amen. We didn’t do it by himself, but we were so proud of him. Let you know all white people are not mean ; all of them are not evil and racist. Some of them just want to live right and do the right thing because let the truth be told that we’re all going to meet the maker one day. We all got to meet him, and they say he’s in heaven. If you’re not living right, if you’re not a born again Christian, you’re going to go before him. And you’re going to see heaven, and you’re going to have to leave. Some people know that, and they try to -- can you imagine seeing heaven, something that great, and have to leave? You cannot stay. That’s enough right there to make you want to live right. But that’s what’s going to happen, and some people realize that. We have to live right regardless of what color you are. We have to love one another. We have to treat one another right. I got a phone call this morning. It ain’t like I’m rich. One of my church members been real sick, and one of the deacons said they’re trying to get 500 dollars for him, to give him. They’re trying to raise 500 dollars. He asked me would I help, and I told him, “I will give him 100 dollars.” Behind me is a refrigerator that’s not working. Our refrigerator been out for a whole two months because Lowe’s -- the warranty they gave us -- they wouldn’t fix it. I don’t have any food that I can eat in my house as you would go in your refrigerator. I don’t have a refrigerator, but I gave this boy 100 dollars. My stove that I cook on, that hole is empty because it’s so burnt out. I’m replacing it with another stove, trying to get it hooked up. I didn’t have 100 to give, but sometimes you have to do to help others when you’re really not able. I’m eating and living out of a cooler on my back deck. All my water, sodas, milk and all that stuff -- perishable stuff -- is in the ice cooler. Been that way for two months, but I still gave him 100 dollars. See what I’m saying? You have to do things when you’re really not able regardless of the situation you’re in. You still have to help people because it’s always somebody in a worse shape than you are. This man’s been real sick a long time, real sick. WALKER-HARPS: Well, that’s just a testimony to everything else you have said today about yourself when you were growing up. Uh-huh, that really is. It didn’t just happen. We’ve got to close up now. It’s late. CUNNINGHAM: Well, do you have anything else you want to share with us before we close out today? WALKER-HARPS: You may go. CALDWELL: If y’all need any more questions, like I said, my childhood and my coming up was a long story. I tried to tell it short and brief as I could. And I just want to put on -- CAIN: It was a pleasure to meet you. CALDWELL: I just want y’all to know, even when I was coming up, I had some young boys that was white and they would take me to their house. And their parents were working, and we would eat up everything in the house. God, we were friends. They didn’t see me as black or white. We were just friends, and I met a lot of young guys like that. We got together. We were young boys ; we hung out together. And that’s just the way it was coming up. Because their parents might have been racist ; they wasn’t racist. God, we played together. We had fun together and everything back there on that golf course. We’d get butt naked and swim in the creek together. We did all that together because I couldn’t go to the pool ; he could, but he would swim with us in the creek and stuff like that. We was friends. And I’d tell you about Jim Sersa, still here today. Jim was my friend, was. He never treated me like I was black or white. I was just his friend. I had a lot of white friends coming up in Griffin, a lot of them. Stewart, the sheriff, he was my friend. I used to tease him about it all the time. When Stewart first came to Griffin, he was a police officer. He wasn’t the sheriff. I said, “Stewart, you never caught me,” because we used to shoot dice under the streetlights. And they would pull up in their car and we’d run. And we found out if we leave the money, they wouldn’t chase us. Wasn’t about three or four dollars, no way. If you’d pick the money up, they would run us all the way through the woods, come and pick the money up. If we leave the money, they wouldn’t chase us. They’d pick the money up. “Oh, we’re going to get y’all next time.” They’d pick that money up and get back in the car. I told Stewart, “Stewart, you never caught me.” I said, “I was one of them black boys you was running on Spring Hill every weekend.” He said, “What?” I said, “I was one of them.” I said, “Boy, I got to play rough with you. You never caught me, Stewart. I was too fast for you.” I was working for the Sheriff’s department then when I told him that. We would laugh and tease about it all the time. I ended up there working for him at the Sheriff’s department. I said, “Stewart, you never caught me.” I said, “You couldn’t catch me.” He would laugh about that. He said, “I caught half of you though.” I said, “But you never caught me.” We would laugh about that tonight. When he died, I cried. I liked that Stewart. He was just an everyday guy. Grew up to be a sheriff, just like me trying to struggle and make it. He was the sheriff, but he still was the same old Stewart. I hate the way he -- I understood he got killed. But I had a lot of white friends like that, lot of them. WALKER-HARPS: I hated that too. He knew I always thought he was a racist, but a couple of weeks before he died, he sent me a message. “Tell Miss Harps. I’m not a racist ; I like her. I’m not a racist ; you make sure you tell her.” And I said, “I wonder why.” I took it as a repentance. I took it as yeah, you know, sometimes things happen to people just before they die -- CALDWELL: Yeah, I grew up with him, yeah. WALKER-HARPS: -- and they want to make things right. And when I heard about, that’s what entered my mind. He knew that I felt that way about him. I knew. I always thought he wanted to make it right. CALDWELL: He wanted to make it right, yeah. CUNNINGHAM: Well, Mr. Caldwell -- no, you go ahead. WALKER-HARPS: We enjoyed your very, very wonderful interview from the heart. I got a real good view of the inside of you today. CALDWELL: Okay. WALKER-HARPS: Yes, and you’ve got a testimony to give, and hopefully I’ll be calling on you at other times when -- particularly with the young people -- CALDWELL: Okay. WALKER-HARPS: -- because what you were saying is of value to them. CALDWELL: Okay. WALKER-HARPS: Thank you so much for giving your time and your effort to come and share with us today. CUNNINGHAM: Thank you so much. CALDWELL: I appreciate it. I appreciate it. I’ve been looking forward to this because I have so much respect for Miss Harps, you know? Anything she ask me to do, I try to do it. She called me, fussing me off, talking, “Have you paid your membership due?” WALKER-HARPS: I do fuss at you. CALDWELL: I already paid my membership through the year, but she makes us pay our membership due. WALKER-HARPS: That’s right. (laughter) That’s right. CALDWELL: Don’t forget our membership due. And it ain’t that I don’t want to ; I just have to remind me. WALKER-HARPS: I’m coming over there. CUNNINGHAM: Right. WALKER-HARPS: I’m coming over to clean to house and you’ll -- CALDWELL: Yeah, come over and clean the house with me and Shirley. She’s in a meeting now. She’s a commissioner. You see all these new high apartments you been around here in Griffin, the housing authority? WALKER-HARPS: She’s on the board. CALDWELL: My wife is on the board. They’re the one doing all that, tearing this old stuff down, building these new houses. The housing authority’s doing that. She’s a commissioner. She’s Miss That and (inaudible). She stay busy all the time. Miss Harps. We got to call her Miss Walker when I was a young boy because she was Miss Walker ; she was our schoolteacher. WALKER-HARPS: I know. CALDWELL: She was my undercover girlfriend. She knew that I liked her so much. END OF AUDIO FILE Resources may be used under the guidelines described by the U.S. Copyright Office in Section 107, Title 17, United States Code (Fair use). Parties interested in production or commercial use of the resources should contact the Russell Library for a fee schedule. audio 0 purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL418GAA/findingaid
Location
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Griffin, Georgia
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102 minutes
OHMS Object
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https://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL418GAA-021/ohms
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Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
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Interview with Larry Caldwell, August 30, 2019
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RBRL418GAA-021
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Larry Caldwell
Art Cain
John Cruickshank
Be-Atrice Cunningham
Rich Braman
Jewel Walker-Harps
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audio
oral histories
Subject
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African American veterans
Discrimination
Civil rights
United States--Veterans
United States--Civil rights
Description
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Larry Caldwell grew up in Springhill, Georgia during the era of segregation. He served in the Marine Corps during the Vietnam War and when he returned, attended Griffin Technical Institute before he attained employment at General Motors. In this interview, Caldwell talks about growing up in Springhill, his experiences after the Vietnam War, discrimination, and the Civil Rights Movement of Griffin, Georgia.
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2019-08-30
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http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
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sound
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Griffin, Georgia
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-
Dublin Core
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Griffin African American Oral History Project
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Georgia--History, Local
African Americans--History
Georgia--Communities
Description
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The Griffin African American Oral History Project is a collaboration between the Griffin Branch NAACP, the Griffin Campus Library of the University of Georgia, and the Richard B. Russell Library. The seed was planted in the meetings of the Educational Prosperity Initiative which is also chaired by the president of the Griffin Branch NAACP, Jewel Walker-Harps. Collaborators on the project include: Griffin Housing Authority; Spalding County Collaborative; Fairmont Alumni Association; University of Georgia—Athens and Griffin campuses; and the Educational Prosperity Initiative, which is an affiliate of the Spalding County Collaborative and others. Interviewers on the project include: John Cruickshank, librarian at UGA-Griffin Campus Library; Jewel Walker-Harps, President of the Griffin, GA Branch of the NAACP; Art Cain, coordinator of Continuing Education for UGA-Griffin; Be-Atrice Cunningham, project manager for College of Agricultural and Environmental Science for Griffin; and Ellen Bauske, senior public service associate at the Georgia Center for Urban Agriculture in Griffin. Rich Braman was the sound engineer for this project. <br />The Griffin African American Oral History Project intends to document the experiences of people who lived in Fairmont Community in Griffin, Georgia during the civil rights era and through its transformation to the present day.<br /><br />All interviews in this collection have been indexed in OHMS.
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Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
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Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
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2015-2018
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http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
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Oral histories
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RBRL418GAA
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Griffin, Georgia
Oral History
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OHMS Object Text
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5.4 2019-03-26 Interview with Howard Wallace, March 26, 2019 RBRL418GAA-022 67 minutes RBRL418GAA Griffin African American Oral History Project Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies, University of Georgia Howard Wallace Jewel Walker-Harps Art Cain John Cruickshank Rich Braman 0 Kaltura audio < ; iframe id=" ; kaltura_player" ; src=" ; https://cdnapisec.kaltura.com/p/1727411/sp/172741100/embedIframeJs/uiconf_id/26879422/partner_id/1727411?iframeembed=true& ; playerId=kaltura_player& ; entry_id=1_jecii9vf& ; flashvars[localizationCode]=en& ; amp ; flashvars[leadWithHTML5]=true& ; amp ; flashvars[sideBarContainer.plugin]=true& ; amp ; flashvars[sideBarContainer.position]=left& ; amp ; flashvars[sideBarContainer.clickToClose]=true& ; amp ; flashvars[chapters.plugin]=true& ; amp ; flashvars[chapters.layout]=vertical& ; amp ; flashvars[chapters.thumbnailRotator]=false& ; amp ; flashvars[streamSelector.plugin]=true& ; amp ; flashvars[EmbedPlayer.SpinnerTarget]=videoHolder& ; amp ; flashvars[dualScreen.plugin]=true& ; amp ; flashvars[Kaltura.addCrossoriginToIframe]=true& ; amp ; & ; wid=1_hy66gv6z" ; width=" ; 400" ; height=" ; 285" ; allowfullscreen webkitallowfullscreen mozAllowFullScreen allow=" ; autoplay * ; fullscreen * ; encrypted-media *" ; sandbox=" ; allow-forms allow-same-origin allow-scripts allow-top-navigation allow-pointer-lock allow-popups allow-modals allow-orientation-lock allow-popups-to-escape-sandbox allow-presentation allow-top-navigation-by-user-activation" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; title=" ; Kaltura Player" ; > ; < ; /iframe> ; 96 Growing up in the 1930's I'm Howard Wallace and I'm a native... Howard talks about his upbringing as he was born in the 1930's, during the time of segregation. Howard explains that he had little contact with African Americans growing up. Howard explains how gerrymandering was used to increase the power of white populations after mandatory integration. mandatory integration ; West Griffin 523 The Biracial Committee How do you account for that, peaceful? Wallace talks about the ways in which a pastor in the community helped integration efforts in the city of Griffin, Georgia. Wallace recalls how the Biracial Committee was created in Griffin to spur integration efforts across the institutions of the town. Biracial Committee ; Griffin, Georgia ; integration ; St. John Episcopal Church 885 Cross burning / Joining the Army I'd be curious to know... Wallace talks about cross burnings targeted at members of the Biracial Committee of Griffin. Wallace relates stories about his time in the army during segregation. Wallace talks about further interactions he had with African Americans during his time in university Biracial Committee ; cross burning ; Ku Klux Klan (KKK) 1276 Benefits concerning Biracial Committee You think they were taught, or were .. Wallace talks about how his work in the Biracial Committee has created connections throughout the community of Griffin, Georgia. Wallace relates how African American lived in poor conditions when he was growing up in Griffin. Wallace talks about how the economic situation of African Americans has improved greatly throughout the years. Biracial Committee ; economic growth ; Griffin, Georgia 1677 Breaking racial barriers I ran into a lady the day... Wallace shares how racial barriers were slowly broken in Griffin. Wallace talks about the segregated services that were implemented while he was growing up including segregated facilities and unequal education among Blacks. education ; Horace Ward ; integration 2062 Racial aspects of education, church, and politics Can I ask a couple of questions... Wallace talks about how racist ideologies were promoted through the use of religion and in the creation of multiple private schools in Griffin. Wallace and the interviewers discuss the racial aspect of recent politics. politics ; private school ; race ; religion 2512 Political control in GA To elect a senator, you had ... Wallace talks about the unconstitutional methods of senatorial elections that were carried out in Georgia, which ultimately prevented African Americans from getting office in sections of the south. Wallace shares how gerrymandering is currently effecting the representation of political opinions throughout Georgia. Wallace shares his optimism towards the future of Griffin, Georgia. Biracial Committee ; districts ; political power ; Senator elections 2896 Works by the Biracial Committee Did you all collectively say... Wallace talks about the work done by the Biracial Committee to dispel both minor and major acts of discrimination within the African American community of Griffin. Wallace explains how being a member of the Biracial Committee effected his political career. Wallace relates how he kept his racial beliefs in respect to his parents' stance on integration. Biracial Committee ; discrimination ; Walter Jones 3425 Court Cases / Concluding thoughts Who was our track star... Wallace talks about the conduct he upholds to dispel racial inequalities. Wallace relates a mistake he made during a case he worked which had an unexpected result. attorney ; Barnesville, Georgia ; court cases ; Wyoming Tyus Oral history RBRL418GAA-022-Wallace JEWEL WALKER-HARPS: You ready? M: Mm. WALKER-HARPS: Today, March the 26th, 2019. We’re at the University of Georgia, Griffin campus, with African American Oral History Project. We have as our guest today Attorney Howard Wallace. We have interviewing him today Art Cain, John Cruickshank, Richard Braman, and myself, Jewel Walker-Harps. Now, we’re going to be doing this a little different from what we normally do in terms of allowing Howard to, what, tell us who he is, what he does, or who he has been in Griffin and to kind of tell us his story. And we [00:01:00] know that he’s not African American but we know that he had a prominent life here in Griffin. And he would have knowledge of the impact of other aspects of a community that would have had a very positive or negative impact on the life of African Americans. So, we’re just going to let him tell us what he’d like to share with us and then we will ask him questions so that he can fill in the gaps. So, now, just tell us a little bit about yourself and go right into your story, Attorney Wallace. HOWARD WALLACE: Okay, I’m Howard Wallace. I’m a native of Griffin. My father was a native of Griffin and his father was a native. We go back a long way. The old family home where my father was raised still stands precariously on Wallace Road in east Spalding County, west Butts County, right there on the line [00:02:00] and -- I-75 goes. So, we’ve been here a long time. I grew up -- I was born September the 10th, 1930, right in the heart of the Depression. My father was the probate judge. They called it then ordinary, which was -- dealt with -- it had some judicial functions but mostly it was clerical. It was for marriage licenses, things like that that -- a probate of wills, that sort of thing, was his job. And when I grew up, and I grew up sort of in the courthouse, in the public life, I was born in the house on -- am I getting too far or going too far? WALKER-HARPS: No, you’re doing -- M: (Right?), excellent. WALKER-HARPS: -- no, you’re doing -- it’s (inaudible) WALLACE: I was born in a house that still stands on Taylor Street. I don’t know (that I’d?) -- [00:03:00] 794, I think, on Taylor Street. It’s between the chicken place, Chik-fil-A and Bonanza, in that block right there. The house, you’ll notice it still stands. I was born in that house in 1930 and went -- my first school was Fourth Ward, which was virtually right around the corner. Fourth Ward then was where the police precinct is now. That was the early grammar school. In those days, the -- well, still is, I guess. This school board is a separate political entity from the city or the country. And the school board, somebody asked why did they name ’em wards. I really had no answer to that except that that was what the school board did and they just had four sections of the city and they had -- and there [00:04:00] were four wards in there: second, third, fourth, and first, I guess. And Fourth Ward was this side. What was down here, Jewel, that -- WALKER-HARPS: West Griffin? WALLACE: West Griffin, and I don’t know what ward it was in. And they always called it West Griffin. WALKER-HARPS: Yes, yes, yeah. WALLACE: It was Fourth Ward, Third Ward, West Griffin, and Northside. Those were the four grammar schools. Then, in 1937, my family moved to Maple Drive, which was an extension of 6th Street. It was a new subdivision that was being promoted by Mr. Nat Bailey and his brother and brother-in-law called Forest Hills. So, my folks moved out there and I then went to Third Ward from the second on through. There was a [00:05:00] complete segregation of schools at that time. Growing up, there were maids that came into your life in some sort of function or another but I didn’t have much contact with Afro-American people as a child. We had a maid that came. She lived on Boyds Road, (Mattie May Lemmons?). Her husband was Robert Lemmons. They later -- during the Depression, even moved to Cincinnati to find a better life up there. They had no children and so they picked up and left, which was heartbreaking to me. I was a child and Mattie May, who was a comforting, nurturing friend, that was my contact with Afro-Americans. And when she left, we -- my mother never could be satisfied with anybody [00:06:00] else. And so, thereafter, I had no contact with the relationships that we have now until I went in the Army in 1952. At that point, everything was still, of course, separated, segregated. There hadn’t been any Oklahoma School (take?) -- there hadn’t been any court case, hadn’t been anything about that. When I was -- I guess when I came back was in law school. The Oklahoma case requiring integration of the schools with all deliberate speed was enacted by the Supreme Court and immediately, the law professors -- and this has always been a problem with me, that these people were learned [00:07:00] and good people. They immediately -- was figuring out ways to circumvent the enforcement of that by -- they say, “Well, we can always draw district lines and we can” -- a few years back. And some of you might be old enough to remember the flap about the flag. There was a flag that had the Confederate -- WALKER-HARPS: Yeah. WALLACE: -- cross, what was on it. And to his credit, the governor, then, I think could agree to get rid of the flag if he could get the lottery -- I think there was a lot of politics but it went and it should have gone. But they said it was designed to honor the deeds of the Confederate -- brave people. It wasn’t at all. I was there when the guy scratched it out in the law school basement of the law school in Athens. Scratched it out. “We’ll put this bar on this flag as a -- act of defiance forever.” Had nothing to do [00:08:00] with this -- and when they came back, of course, it was all for this -- oh, bull. Just wasn’t. There was immediate attempt to circumvent this, which -- and they did, pretty well, Jewel -- and you probably can answer this. When it -- I remember when Crescent Road School was integrated. My Steve was in school then. I think my daughter, Elizabeth had probably finished before there was an actual integration. But this is some 10 years after I left law school and that thing had happened. But there was. It was a peaceful integration here in Griffin. WALKER-HARPS: How do you account for that, peaceful? WALLACE: Well, I was -- I think one thing that helped, and it might have been essential and it might have been the linchpin that made the climate that made it peaceful: at the time, [00:09:00] I was a member of St. George’s Episcopal Church and we had a rector named Ray Averett. He was an army veteran and a paratrooper and he was -- tough old bird and had a heart as big as this building. And he was concerned with what was happening. There was problems, there was the Alabama problems, there was Albany, there was all kind of terrible problems, just terrible treatment of our fellow human beings. And he could not, in good conscience, live in this community and not do something about it. So, he formed, within the church, what is called a birac-- he called it the first and only biracial committee in the city of Griffin. And we met in the Parish Hall down at the basement of St. George on Sunday afternoon. That was very controversial. But I want to tell you, I’ll [00:10:00] make an aside: from my own experience, it was an epiphany for me. It helped me -- rid of all the racial injustice that was piled into my life, just like a fish swimming in a stream. It just was the way it was when I came along. And by being a part of this and meeting on a sunny afternoon basis and sharing the anxieties, fears, ambitions that Afro-Americans had that -- it was a wonderful experience, it really was. That group met and there were others. My mother was very -- she was a very fair person but she just couldn’t fathom integration. And she said, “Well, you can go down there and you can meet with them but you don’t have to have coffee and cookies [00:11:00] with ’em!” That was the barrier that she and her whole South Carolina heritage couldn’t cope with. But we did and that spread through -- and our city manager at the time, he would send the police to take the tag numbers of the cars that were parked behind the Episcopal Church. I don’t know what -- WALKER-HARPS: I remember. WALLACE: -- he was going to do with ’em. But at any rate, Mary Fitzhugh, who was also a member, she was not on the venture but she was a member of the committee. Ginger Shappard was. Ginger met with -- there was no -- Afro-Americans could not serve on jur-- or did not. They could but they did not serve on juries at the time. There’d never been one picked for a jury. And Ginger had to go see Judge McGee and he could -- though she had some prominence in the community, her husband was a wealthy mill owner, Judge McGee didn’t give her time [00:12:00] of day and made it almost impossible to meet with them. We got nowhere with that. As an aside, there was a court order requiring everybody’s names that were eligible, of both races, all races to be placed in the jury box. What they did, and I don’t know whether you know this, Jewel, or not: they put the white people’s names on firm cardboard and the black people’s names were on paper. So, when they reached in the box -- WALKER-HARPS: Yeah, no, I didn’t know that. WALLACE: -- they’d reach in the box to pull ’em out, then they could say -- WALKER-HARPS: (inaudible) WALLACE: -- if they were examining court, well, that name’s in the -- well, yeah, the name’s in the box. But they had -- that was the -- right in Mr. (Lindsey’s?) office, that’s the way they pulled the jurors. The heavy ones got picked and so that whenever any Afro-American jurors -- for many, many years. WALKER-HARPS: (And who was?) -- WALLACE: That committee did a lot to quell -- because it was peopled by people that didn’t have [00:13:00] any real axe to grind, like me, Walter Jones, Jimmy (Mankin?), others. WALKER-HARPS: (Miss Crossfield?). WALLACE: Who? WALKER-HARPS: (Was -- Miss -- was Crossfield over here?)? WALLACE: Miss Crossfield was on that -- WALKER-HARPS: Yeah. WALLACE: (inaudible) her husband was on -- Bob Crossfield was on it. Bob Smalley was very -- WALKER-HARPS: Yes. WALLACE: -- instrumental -- WALKER-HARPS: He was -- WALLACE: -- in it. WALKER-HARPS: -- helpful throughout. WALLACE: And it was -- (there?) -- I say that. I was very low person in -- far as prominence in that committee. But the committee kept things down. And when there was -- when the lunch counter at Woolworths was integrated, Mary was right there with them, you know? And nothing happened. There was never any violence, overt, for that reason. There was violence, of course. Like, we just had a conviction last year of the -- WALKER-HARPS: Yes, yes. WALLACE: -- two that -- the Klansmen that murdered the young man and [00:14:00] (everybody said) -- WALKER-HARPS: Coggins. WALLACE: What was his name? WALKER-HARPS: Timothy Coggins. WALLACE: (inaudible) WALKER-HARPS: Coggins. WALLACE: -- horrible, horrible crime, which was -- it really was -- when I say that it was lucky you didn’t -- now, that was the way it was in the South in those days. It was just -- WALKER-HARPS: I know, yeah. WALLACE: It just was. WALKER-HARPS: Who had crosses burned -- or the (Heads?) had crosses burned (in their?) (inaudible) WALLACE: I had a cross burned! WALKER-HARPS: -- (burden to us?). WALLACE: You knew that. (laughs) WALKER-HARPS: Well, we give praise to that committee. We give credit (to this, well?) -- WALLACE: Do you? WALKER-HARPS: -- yes, we do -- WALLACE: Do you? I -- WALKER-HARPS: -- for the stability in this community. The credit goes to that interracial community and the people who were committed to the work of that -- what they did. RICHARD BRAMAN: I’d be curious to know: you had a cross burned on your lawn. WALLACE: I did. BRAMAN: And it was a direct result of being a part of the committee, is that right? Or -- WALLACE: Well, it was a result of my law practice. I just happened to represent this man. [00:15:00] He was Mr. Copeland. He was a concrete finisher and he was going home, he had his trailer with his -- all of, you know, you see those things with the concrete tools in the back. And hard-working man and they stopped him on the way home and said he was driving under the influence. And we tried it and the sheriff , it was the witnesses against him and the jury found him not guilty. I don’t know (inaudible) BRAMAN: Was this a -- African American guy? WALLACE: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. So, they felt like it was an affront to the sheriff’s department that the jury found him not guilty when they had testified that he was driving under the influence. I don’t know whether it was or not but he got a cross burned and I did, too. (laughter) BRAMAN: So, follow up on that, was the jury that found him not guilty comprised of all white jurors or were there some African American jurors (inaudible) WALLACE: Yeah, I think they were all white then. [00:16:00] That’s my recollection. I can’t remember picking Afro-American jurors until I was maybe in Clayton County, trying some combination cases up there. It was more fully integrated in Clayton. I don’t remember that specifically. It was -- (laughs) I laugh about the experience because it was funny: I was certainly disappointed in the size of the cross that they gave me. (laughter) It was about like this. (laughter) And I’m not kidding! It was no taller than this and it was made out of cross -- two by fours crossed like this, covered in burlap and then doused in gasoline or something. They were -- it was burning pretty -- but it was no bigger than this and I just -- and somebody came to the door and said, “Do you know there’s a cross burning in your yard?” I think this is Professor Hendricks across the street. I said, “No,” and I went out and picked [00:17:00] it up and threw it in the road. And they came back, (laughs) the Klan came back by sometime later and found it burning in the road and set it back up. (laughter) So, I was never frightened about anything. I saw one of the guys that did it. I saw him when he was -- his car out on Crescent Road. I’d worked with Thomas Patkin one summer. I knew him, Johnny Knowles. WALKER-HARPS: Yes. WALLACE: And he -- WALKER-HARPS: Everybody knew Johnny Knowles was Klan. WALLACE: (laughs) And he was one of ’em -- WALKER-HARPS: Yes. WALLACE: -- and he was in the car that came back, said -- and he knew me! He didn’t see me but he knew the house it was. But that was such a minor incident in the whole picture of how we were getting along. I don’t think that rippled anybody’s community about that. But in the Army, I was in -- my first assignment was in the 509 Tank Battalion and [00:18:00] it was the last un-integrated unit in the United States Army. It was composed of draftees from Upstate New York that had formed this battalion and their enlistment time was up shortly after I got to that battalion and it virtually disappeared. But that was a segregated unit. All of the noncoms and the troops were Afro-American ; the officers were all white. That’s the way it was in the Army. This was up until 1952, ’53 when Truman ordered that there be no segregation in the services. But that was another -- see, that was an experience. I had none growing up in high school. Grammar school, high school, or college. The college experience was what -- we had a cook at the fraternity house. We loved her. [00:19:00] (Eldora?) was a good cook, a faithful cook. We had -- she had some help in the kitchen and we had two houseboys that picked up your clothes and made your beds and made us live like gentlemen at the university. That was -- WALKER-HARPS: You were out -- were you ahead or behind (Hamilton Holmes?) and (Charlie Hunter?)? WALLACE: Oh, I was -- they were way back. WALKER-HARPS: Yeah. WALLACE: I mean, way after me. There was nothing like that over there then. It was just -- it was the same old de facto we’re up here, you’re down there. You can wait on us and we’ll love you for it and hope that you will reciprocate. But it was -- there was no classes together or anything like that. In Athens. Now, I did go to school for a year for my graduate work at Indiana University and there was -- WALKER-HARPS: Oh, yeah. WALLACE: -- some integration there. Not a whole lot, not as much as you would think [00:20:00] in Indiana but some. And one of the restaurants there, in Bloomington, maintained a segregated posture, even in -- that must have been 1955, was still -- so, yeah, it’s like now, Jewel, the pockets of these things all over the country that we need to get rid of. We need to -- WALKER-HARPS: Well, that’s -- WALLACE: -- get rid of it rather than fostering like we’re doing now the attitude of we want to go back to those days, when we want to go back to where it’s master and servant and that sort of thing. And it’s wrong. WALKER-HARPS: But it’s the equivalent. We -- I run into it with many cases, particularly with county government. WALLACE: Yeah, I mean, yeah -- WALKER-HARPS: (inaudible) much with city but with the county government, there’s still (inaudible) WALLACE: Still that old line -- WALKER-HARPS: -- the line, right. WALLACE: -- old line and that’s the way it -- and it’s [00:21:00] -- I don’t know whether it’s going to take generations to do it. I mean, you’d think -- I mean, I’m 88 and -- but there’s people that have been born since me that still harbor this same attitude toward it that -- it’s just -- WALKER-HARPS: You’d think they were taught or they’re being taught because the people who were actually a witness would’ve died -- WALLACE: I know that! WALKER-HARPS: (inaudible) yeah, but that -- WALLACE: That’s what I don’t -- WALKER-HARPS: -- we still see it coming out and (inaudible) WALLACE: It’s still out. WALKER-HARPS: Yeah. WALLACE: I still see it in -- among my -- I wish they could have -- that I’m saying the experience that I had on that biracial committee, just -- it made me personally -- and my rector, I -- he came by to see me one day at home and I’m out working in the yard and he said, “You just feel so smug that you’re doing this.” And I said, “Yeah, I guess I do.” He said, “You’re just doing what you ought to be doing! You’re not doing anything heroic! You’re just doing what you ought to be doing.” And that sort of cut me down [00:22:00] but it didn’t take away the experience. And from that day, Jewel, I’ve been a -- I think I’m known as a friend in -- WALKER-HARPS: You are. WALLACE: -- both communities. WALKER-HARPS: You are. You are. WALLACE: And I’ve got friends in all of ’em and I had a problem with, a couple years ago, with probating my brother’s will in Clayton County. He’d done 1,000 wills, I guess, and in this occasion, he didn’t get it witnessed properly. And so, it was -- and we couldn’t probate the will. (laughs) And the witness that should have, that was typed in to be signed was an Afro-American that -- he just bought his business in Jonesboro, his law office. So, like, we’re doing all of this, I could see how it happened. But later on, she balked at signing it ex post facto. She said I didn’t sign it at the time and [00:23:00] my niece said, “Well, you saw it. You witnessed it.” So, she was having trouble. I said, “Let me talk to her.” So, I talked to her on the phone and she was adamant about not signing it. So, I called up Gwen Reed. I said -- WALKER-HARPS: Right. WALLACE: -- “Gwen,” (laughs) Gwen (inaudible) , I said, “Gwen, I need some help from the brotherhood.” (laughter) I said, “I don’t want this woman up there to think I’m a white honky -- I want you to help me establish some bona fides. Will you ride up to Jonesboro with me and let’s talk to this lady?” And she -- “I’d be glad to.” We had a good time. She went up there and we came in and we talked. And I don’t -- and my niece doesn’t think we’d ever gotten anything out of if Gwen hadn’t been there and I kind of feel the same way. WALKER-HARPS: So, Gwen is one of the -- person who recommended your -- WALLACE: What? WALKER-HARPS: Gwen is one of the persons who suggested -- WALLACE: Oh, did -- WALKER-HARPS: -- I talk to you, yeah. WALLACE: Oh, did she? WALKER-HARPS: Yeah. WALLACE: Well, [00:24:00] she’s always been a good friend. But that was a great experience. WALKER-HARPS: But you were a friend to her uncle, then her dad and whatever. So, you go way back -- WALLACE: Oh, yeah. WALKER-HARPS: -- to the -- WALLACE: I do, I do. WALKER-HARPS: -- twins, yeah. WALLACE: And I represented ’em. WALKER-HARPS: Yeah, yes. WALLACE: I have -- my father represented Afro-Americans. There was -- WALKER-HARPS: (Really?)? WALLACE: -- never any reason not to. WALKER-HARPS: Bob Smalley. (Yeah?), Bob Smalley was a jewel. He was (inaudible) WALLACE: Oh, yeah. Bob was. He was not only -- he was fearless but he was intellectual and a tremendous mind. And, yeah, he did a lot in this community. WALKER-HARPS: Yeah, he really did. WALLACE: And he had a lot of respect from everybody. WALKER-HARPS: We loved him. WALLACE: Would listen to Bob and it’s been a gradual thing but it’s been a -- we have -- we benefited by a lot of the things that have gone on. When I came along, the Afro-Americans lived in just terrible living conditions. They didn’t have [00:25:00] -- the maid that we had that I loved dearly that helped raise my children, she lived on the corner of 9th and is it Oak Alley through there, where the -- WALKER-HARPS: Yeah, there is an Oak Street that goes through there -- WALLACE: Oak Street -- WALKER-HARPS: -- down (inaudible) WALLACE: -- right there. Mr. McWilliams, the former sheriff, had some -- WALKER-HARPS: Yeah. WALLACE: -- slum properties -- WALKER-HARPS: Yes, yes. WALLACE: -- right there. And she lived there and she didn’t have hot water. WALKER-HARPS: Yes. WALLACE: She had running water but she didn’t have any hot water and was raising her family there. And we were right -- not hardly a mile away with all of the comforts of home, really. But we loved her and we took her on trips with us and -- but then, things started getting better. I think there was some economic breakthrough for the Afro-Americans that they could get, finally, some paying jobs that they could afford to have better housing and she and her [00:26:00] husband, he drove a cab, they moved out onto 2nd Street and had a nice house out there. And they -- you began to see improvement in the neighborhoods and these -- so, these -- you would not -- I don’t know how long you’ve lived in Griffin but you would not believe how just terrible -- Jewel, you know! WALKER-HARPS: I know. Edgewood and Boyd Row and -- WALLACE: Boyds Row was where -- WALKER-HARPS: Yeah. WALLACE: -- Mattie May lived -- WALKER-HARPS: Yes, yes. WALLACE: -- right off the street. That was bad. WALKER-HARPS: Yeah. WALLACE: And -- but -- WALKER-HARPS: Once jobs opened up at the telephone company -- opened up for those kids who were graduating from high school, that period, got a chance to work at the telephone company. So, they had an outlet over there and they were always -- I just happen to remember the telephone company -- those who were coming out of school. WALLACE: Well, and maybe there was more integration within the textile community. I don’t know that but they were always seeking employment and, you know, and maybe there was a little bit of integration there. [00:27:00] WALKER-HARPS: When they got to do something other than just (inaudible) WALLACE: Yes. WALKER-HARPS: Yeah, they (inaudible) WALLACE: Yeah, I mean, that were paying something. WALKER-HARPS: -- that did happen, yes. WALLACE: Anyway, there were -- WALKER-HARPS: On the line. WALLACE: -- it’s like a slow tide rising but I have seen it rise for the benefit of my friends that now have really decent housing at -- for the most part. And they know -- I don’t think there’s any racial difference in what’s available now in this community. There might be. Jewel might speak to that better than I can but it seems to me that anybody that wants to have a nice house and they’ve got an opportunity to work, they’re going to have a nice house. WALKER-HARPS: Yeah, not based on race. Housing is trouble but it’s not based on race forever about -- WALLACE: Yeah, that’s what I mean. WALKER-HARPS: Yeah. WALLACE: That’s what I feel. I mean, I -- WALKER-HARPS: Yes, yeah. WALLACE: -- don’t know, I -- that’s why I ask if you felt the same way. WALKER-HARPS: Yeah. WALLACE: There’s a -- the courts have been integrated. I ran into a lady, day before yesterday, [00:28:00] I feel bad about this, at the grocery store and she said, “Mr. Wallace,” said, “you know who I am.” I didn’t. She said -- I should have. She said, “Who was your favorite black policeman?” Well, I said, “I guess it would be the first one.” And she said, “Well, that’s right, Marvin.” I said -- and then I knew who it was. WALKER-HARPS: Yes, okay. WALLACE: It’s Miss Barrow. It’s Marvin Barrow’s -- WALKER-HARPS: Oh, his wife, Annette -- WALLACE: -- his wife. WALKER-HARPS: Okay. WALLACE: Annette, yeah, I should’ve known her name. Anyway, had a nice (inaudible) but I did come up -- I called her Miss Barrow when we left. I didn’t -- but I could not remember Marvin to save my life to begin with. But that -- he was the first one in the police force, in -- and these barriers that -- it took a lot of courage for the people that crossed the barriers and burst the ceilings -- WALKER-HARPS: Yeah. WALLACE: -- to do it. [00:29:00] And I recommend this book to y’all if you haven’t read it. Judge Tuttle, who was a federal judge during the integration. It’s an excellent book and dissects the mind of the South. And it was about the Holmes -- Charlayne Hunter -- WALKER-HARPS: And Hamilton Holmes. M: Hamilton Holmes. WALLACE: And Hamilton Holmes. It’s virtually the story of how they got admitted to the University of Georgia against all odds. And this judge, it is a -- it’s just one of the most exciting books to read. Of course, maybe more from a lawyer standpoint to see how they were maneuvering and the writs that were being filed -- and between Macon and Athens and Atlanta and all of the maneuvering -- and this judge was standing so firm. Other judges, even on the federal bench in the South, they weren’t doing anything about it. “Can’t go to school? Oh, that’s all [00:30:00] right.” This one said, “I’m going to enforce this.” WALKER-HARPS: Horace Ward and Donna (Halliwell?) worked awfully hard. WALLACE: Oh, I know! WALKER-HARPS: Yes. WALLACE: Well, Horace Ward, I tried cases with him later on in Athens for the city of Atlanta when they were expanding the airport. I remember it was devoted -- he was really nice guy. But he tried to get in law school right at -- while I was in the Army, I guess. WALKER-HARPS: Yes. WALLACE: And they -- this is the story and I don’t know whether it’s true or not but they said, “Well, why aren’t you in the Army? Aren’t you subject to the draft at your age?” And he said, “Well, yeah,” but said, “I’ve got a hernia.” And they said, “Well, we’ll fix that.” (laughter) And they fixed that and he was drafted, went off to the Army. So, he -- Horace never got to the University of Georgia. But what -- he was a fine, fine lawyer and fine man. But these were -- facing those things at every level. And [00:31:00] this country now, many people want to turn back to that. They want to have that power to say no and it’s bad. It’s bad. They have little things coming along that were observable. And the book, The Help, the story really turns around bathroom facilities -- WALKER-HARPS: Yeah, yes. WALLACE: -- for the maids. And we faced that in my house when we lived on Taylor Street. There’s one bathroom ; everybody used it. When we moved out to Maple Drive, there were three bathrooms: two upstairs and the maid’s bathroom downstairs in the basement. It was -- brand new bathroom but it was strictly a commode and strictly a lavatory. No refinement, no tile walls, anything like that. It was pure basic and you had to go down the steps [00:32:00] to get there. And so, one of the maids did not, after Mattie May left, that was, like -- my mother came home and she heard a toilet flush. That maid was out of there. WALKER-HARPS: Yes. WALLACE: That’s, you know, that’s the way it was. Something that they did not mention in the book where we’re talking about the help that the maids had to have to plan the meals and things like that -- and in those days, there were a lot of ’em that could not read and write and they had what is called a pictogram board. Now, you probably don’t know what I’m talking about but it was a board that had pictures of coffee -- WALKER-HARPS: Yes. WALLACE: -- tea and sugar and little pigs. And so, if you couldn’t read or write and you were in the kitchen, you could peg in the picture of what was needed and that was what the board said, “What We Need,” and you pegged in like that. ’Cause education was frowned on. [00:33:00] And now, I think it’s -- we try to promote it for everybody. I certainly think it’s the good thing to do. WALKER-HARPS: Well, yes, but you can see traces of it when we -- right now, we’re getting this battle again about vouchers and (inaudible) WALLACE: Vouchers, oh, yeah, that’s a whole -- WALKER-HARPS: And that’s a, yeah, that’s a -- WALLACE: -- ’nother thing to -- WALKER-HARPS: Yeah, yeah. WALLACE: -- restore segregated school systems. WALKER-HARPS: Yes, yes. WALLACE: And it has been, which was -- I think it’s terrible. I’m a public school supporter and I always have been. But I can just see the drift apart, yeah. Went down to St. George’s school. I’m proud of it that they’re doing it but it was started, I think, to preserve a -- all-white sort of attitude. It’s not as bad as Barnesville Academy, I -- that was purely thrown up in the face of -- to avoid [00:34:00] integration and have the place for these people who go to school. Now, that had no pretense at academics at all (laughs) and thankfully, it closed. I’m trying to think of some other things I wanted to mention in my ramble about growing up here. BRAMAN: Well, can I -- WALLACE: Yeah. BRAMAN: -- ask a couple question, just -- __: (inaudible) BRAMAN: -- while you were on the whole public school, private school thing, there does seem to be an inordinate amount of private schools in the area. And did that happen in that period where you had Brown v Topeka, Kansas Board -- WALLACE: Yeah, that was the inception. BRAMAN: That was the inception. WALLACE: Yeah, that was the impetus for these things. And then, of course, it got an evangelical -- there’s a segment of the politicians in this country that knew how to capture the hearts is go to the cross, get ’em that way. And I don’t [00:35:00] want to make a political speech but I’m just saying that’s how -- they were smart enough to know what to do. We’re not going to do it just on our own but if we can get the churches and if we can get the churches to then elect the school boards and elect the county commissions and that sort of thing, then we’ve got the power and that’s what’s happened. And these churches -- and a lot of ’em have good schools. Now, I don’t -- I can’t speak to St. George’s Episcopal Church. I don’t think it was it’s -- that church is not evangelical by any means. So, I think they just wanted a private school. I mean, they had some in Atlanta that they wanted to emulate. But some of ’em, like Brookstone and some of these others, they’re still outgrowths of the desire to be segregated. And if you see a graduation picture of some of these several schools around here, you won’t see but one or [00:36:00] two token Afro-Americans in it. BRAMAN: Right, right. WALLACE: And it -- that’s, you know, Brown v Topeka, it started it all. BRAMAN: Right. WALLACE: And they’d rather give up -- they’d rather pay that extra -- they don’t -- it’s not so much -- it’s they don’t want other people to have it. They don’t want to give to somebody that they feel like they don’t deserve it or they’re not worthy or why not be -- do it -- “Why are they calling on me?” -- that it’s a desire to deny rather than establish something. BRAMAN: So, is it -- same kind of zero sum game? If one area benefits then the other one has to lose? They (inaudible) -- WALLACE: Yeah. Well, in -- that’s a principle of physics. For every action, there’s an equal reaction, isn’t that? -- I feel like that’s what happened with Obama’s election. There was a reaction to that. [00:37:00] I don’t think people saw it coming. (laughs) BRAMAN: Right. WALLACE: Just like we couldn’t see Trump coming. BRAMAN: Right. WALLACE: But then, there’s -- I think that was the reaction to -- WALKER-HARPS: But there’s more often -- and we accept being more anti out there than we want to accept being out there, otherwise Trump wouldn’t have gotten elected. But -- WALLACE: Yeah. WALKER-HARPS: -- it’s, yeah, there’s still -- whole lot in the closet that -- WALLACE: A lot. WALKER-HARPS: Yeah. WALLACE: A whole lot. WALKER-HARPS: A lot in the closet. WALLACE: And I have a group that I have breakfast every Tuesday morning. And this morning, I -- 12 of us. I would say that only two of us voted for Hillary Clinton. The other 10 voted for Trump, though they have admitted they find him a despicable person and they will admit that. I don’t know what y’all feel but (inaudible) -- WALKER-HARPS: Well, they will probably do it again (inaudible) WALLACE: And they’ll vote again -- WALKER-HARPS: -- they’ll vote the same way. WALLACE: -- you’re exactly right. WALKER-HARPS: They will vote again the same way. WALLACE: That’s what’s so [00:38:00] sad! WALKER-HARPS: Yes. WALLACE: That’s what makes you feel like what has it all been worth? We tried to have a Democratic Party here. WALKER-HARPS: I remember, yes. WALLACE: We did and we asked some -- we just -- WALKER-HARPS: And your wife was an avid supporter. WALLACE: Hmm? WALKER-HARPS: Mickie was an active part. WALLACE: Yeah, she was. She kept the books for a while and she was on the voting committee. WALKER-HARPS: Yes. WALLACE: She was the Democratic appointee of the voting committee and -- whatever that is. WALKER-HARPS: That’s just a good example that you should mention that, what is actually the feelings or -- when we look at what’s happening with the voter registrar today, it is an outgrowth of just what we’re talking about because there is no reason for the lack of acceptance by your other -- Marcel DeKirk, registrar. When you look at what has happened in the past -- and she came in, [00:39:00] The only thing that could be a negative for her is the color of her skin. WALLACE: Yeah. WALKER-HARPS: It is not that she has not done the job. And when you find situations where -- and I don’t (inaudible) a situation where people actually refused to work for her for no reason at all but wanting to do a good job. And we accept that and support it, then there is no other reason but racism. WALLACE: Well, but those that -- opposing her will come up with these stories -- WALKER-HARPS: Yes. WALLACE: -- like they’re just pure out of fiction and tell (on her?). WALKER-HARPS: Yes! WALLACE: I mean, and they -- and I don’t know because I’m not down there and I don’t know what’s going on but I know that they do -- her name is disparaged a lot. WALKER-HARPS: A lot! A lot! And there’s been no basis for it. Now, I could accept -- you tell me why and I can accept that. WALLACE: I know, you -- WALKER-HARPS: But there’s no -- WALLACE: -- know why. WALKER-HARPS: Why is it okay for me not to want [00:40:00] to accept an order from a black woman? Why would I imply that you lack common sense just because you’re a black woman? So, there is evidence. And let me get back to your story not my story. But that’s just an example of how, even today -- WALLACE: Sure! WALKER-HARPS: -- they’re still alive and well. And I don’t know that we want to accept that. Your friends don’t want to be called racist -- WALLACE: But they are. WALKER-HARPS: -- but they are. (laughter) But they’ll stand for -- they are! WALLACE: They are! I tell ’em that! WALKER-HARPS: They are! And I’m not even sure that they believe that they are. WALLACE: They don’t believe it -- WALKER-HARPS: Yeah. WALLACE: -- but they don’t want -- WALKER-HARPS: They don’t want -- WALLACE: -- they don’t want to put their arms around you and hug and say it’s all right, dear, we’re okay. Everything’s going to be all right. They don’t -- they can’t reach that point. WALKER-HARPS: No, they can’t do that. WALLACE: Yeah, yeah. WALKER-HARPS: Oh, boy. Now, tell us a little bit about the political [00:41:00] side. How did we get to the point where we have –- or, as much diversity and what was it like prior to where we are now? I know I was a part -- well, I was in leadership at the time that we had that court case, Gary Reed and a few others actually signed. I did not sign but I was there. I was a part of it, the ruling where challenged, that large vote-in. And we went to second member districts and that really changed the complexion of the political system here. WALLACE: Well, y’all might remember that the senate, this was a senate, state senate bill, somebody versus Sanders. I think he was the governor. To elect a senator, you had three counties and a district and you just rotated ’em. Fayette would elect [00:42:00] one every two years and Spalding one every two years. And I think Ensenada? I don’t remember the three counties but when you were not in that area, you didn’t have any vote for the person that was elected. So, they brought this lawsuit and Bob Smalley was running then. He was a state senator and he was faced with that, losing his position because he didn’t live in Fayette County. And Mr. Cooke sent me down to the federal court to pick up the decision, the tissue paper decision we call ’em of that ruling that said that was unconstitutional. You had to have one vote, one -- to elect whoever it was, that you can’t diminish the votes by parceling ’em out to various candidates. That was big. But the big thing that realigned everything, Jewel, was the Civil Rights Act, the Johnson, under the Johnson era. WALKER-HARPS: Nineteen sixty-four, yeah. WALLACE: And he knew. He knew. [00:43:00] They said, “You’ve lost the South,” and we did, and everything almost immediately switched. The Democrats that -- heretofore, it had been a Democratic primary was tantamount to election. That word was used over and over and over again. If you won the primary, you won. The Republican Party was, well, who? Was Mister -- who am I trying to say, Jewel? Was head of the little, what little bit of the Republican Party we had here. Touchstone! (inaudible) Mr. Touchstone. WALKER-HARPS: Lon Touchstone. WALLACE: Lon Touchstone. He had a few -- handful of largely Afro-American -- maybe Leila Fortune, Leila Bell and them -- WALKER-HARPS: Yeah. WALLACE: -- mixed up in it as the Republican Party, but not (wanting?) anything. And then, the Civil Rights Act came in and everybody could see that it was changing times. So, all of the Republicans just [00:44:00] (sucking sound) sucked up all of the strength of the races. And then somehow, I’m not so much about the local politics, but it’s just still based on where you live now, isn’t it, Jewel? WALKER-HARPS: Yes, where you live now, really. Yes, where you live now because of the districts. Heretofore, it was you lived anywhere in the county and the county was racially divided by -- geographically. Not politically but geographically and that’s why Judge -- I believe Judge Whalen was the judge that said you can’t do any more annexation on the south side of town until you annex on the north side of town. WALLACE: To keep a balance. WALKER-HARPS: To keep a balance because the affluent people lived on the south side of town and they were, of course, all white. [00:45:00] And as you annexed them, then you had -- you were not balanced in terms of political power. WALLACE: Well, that’s the problem and it’s -- the same is true nationally, in gerrymandering, which I’m firmly opposed to. WALKER-HARPS: Yes. WALLACE: Then they’ll draw these little districts and they come out with results that just -- WALKER-HARPS: Yeah, yeah. WALLACE: -- are unheard of that -- when they redistrict these ways, but for the very reason to keep this political party -- this is a Republican stronghold here and this is a Democratic strong-- doesn’t matter whether they fluctuate back and forth actually. And that’s the way it is. WALKER-HARPS: That’s the way it is. WALLACE: Now, I think there’s some cracks in this -- the court system’s observance of the validity of that. I’m hoping so, that that’s a management of -- WALKER-HARPS: Yeah. WALLACE: -- election -- WALKER-HARPS: Well, we’ll see. WALLACE: -- outside the ballot box that shouldn’t be done. [00:46:00] WALKER-HARPS: We’ll see in a few weeks, a few months, rather, ’cause we’re back at that process again. WALLACE: I know. WALKER-HARPS: Yeah. So, what, presently, looking at it and knowing where we came from, and what is your assessment today? Well, what do we need to do? Is there anything in your mind that we can do to -- WALLACE: Well, I’m hopeful. WALKER-HARPS: Yeah, we are hopeful. WALLACE: I’m optimistic. I believe that the more we stress that -- the Christian principle of love your neighbor as yourself, at every moment that you can, that you got to do that, that there’s going to be some progress made. I’m worried about the fact that it’s, you know, it’s up and pushback and then up and pushback -- WALKER-HARPS: Yeah. WALLACE: -- and up and pushback and we’re in the pushback mode right now because we’ve got leadership that believes in it. [00:47:00] WALKER-HARPS: Yes. WALLACE: And so, we’ve got to overcome that but down in the districts, down here, I have -- I’m optimistic about the future. I wish I could think during my lifetime we would get to the point where you would not have to say, “I went to the doctor. It was a black doctor.” Why do we have to WALKER-HARPS: Yes, yeah, yes. WALLACE: -- identify that? And we all do it! WALKER-HARPS: Yes, yes. WALLACE: We all do it! WALKER-HARPS: We do it. WALLACE: I went, you know, I went -- I had a high school teacher, she was black, too. You know, just add that, and like you need that reference. And we don’t need that reference. We shouldn’t need it, at any rate. WALKER-HARPS: Yeah, we shouldn’t. WALLACE: I don’t know. I’ve talked too much, I’m -- (laughter) (I have?) -- WALKER-HARPS: No, you’ve been good. Got a question -- CAIN: Well, I’ll still always have questions. WALKER-HARPS: I know Art has questions. ART CAIN: Just to -- for the record, you mentioned the biracial committee and that was hugely a reason why you didn’t have any kind of violence [00:48:00] during the -- WALLACE: Well, I claim so and Jewel agrees with me. She says that she thinks that it was -- WALKER-HARPS: Totally. WALLACE: -- instrumental in keeping peace here in the community. CAIN: How many people were on the committee? WALLACE: Oh, I guess at times there was maybe 30, oh -- CAIN: Did you all collectively say, as a leadership group we’re going to go out and advocate for the kind of integration where you wouldn’t have problems? WALLACE: Oh, yeah! CAIN: How did that happen, I mean (inaudible) WALLACE: Oh, yeah, yeah, that’s what I’m saying. We had committees to go see the judge about being -- put black people on the jury list and we had committees to go to the -- WALKER-HARPS: They really facilitated -- WALLACE: -- one of the things -- and this is the thing that my wife just -- she was from Indiana, so she didn’t know how to -- she wasn’t raised right, (laughter). She, at the committee meeting, when we were discussing the grievances, mostly -- and that’s what it was, ’cause white people, we didn’t have any grievances, you know? We wanted to keep the peace but we had [00:49:00] everything the way we wanted it but the others didn’t. And that’s what the committee was about, was to open up the lines of communication. And one of the things was at the hospital, the white people could have Mr. Wallace or Wallace on their nametag. Jewel would have Jewel, first name only. And they -- and that was offensive to ’em and that was one of (inaudible) they brought that up at one of the meetings, that we need to fix that. Well, that was easily fixed. (laughs) That could be done. WALKER-HARPS: That was -- well, we just finalized a lady last week, who was (inaudible) story to tell, least they told about she was the head nurse but she was a head nurse for black folk. They only allowed her upstairs when they ran into trouble -- WALLACE: Yeah. WALKER-HARPS: -- and they needed -- (inaudible) WALLACE: Yeah! WALKER-HARPS: Yeah, I’m -- WALLACE: I mean, I saw that. WALKER-HARPS: -- yes. [00:50:00] WALLACE: Yeah. WALKER-HARPS: And, no -- WALLACE: Portia’s? -- WALKER-HARPS: -- they could not -- WALLACE: -- Portia -- WALKER-HARPS: -- yeah. WALLACE: -- had a daughter that was a good friend of my daughter, Elizabeth. WALKER-HARPS: Yes. Louise -- probably Portia Louise or might have been Marcia, I don’t know what -- WALLACE: I don’t know which one it was but I -- remember that was -- WALKER-HARPS: But -- WALLACE: At any rate, I saw that -- WALKER-HARPS: -- yes. WALLACE: She was 94 years old. WALKER-HARPS: Yes. WALLACE: Very -- WALKER-HARPS: But she will -- WALLACE: -- well respected. But no -- WALKER-HARPS: (inaudible) WALLACE: -- she couldn’t come -- WALKER-HARPS: No. WALLACE: -- she couldn’t do that. WALKER-HARPS: She couldn’t eat with them. She could do whatever but when it was time to eat, then they had to go to the place that -- WALLACE: But these things that some people look as so minor, well, they were not minor to a lot of people on either side. They were major. And a lot of it has been overcome and I don’t see any way that’s ever going to be pushed back in the bottle. WALKER-HARPS: Oh, no, no. WALLACE: And I don’t think it will be, but -- WALKER-HARPS: No, no, that’s -- WALLACE: -- and it can go forward from that. And once there is this experience, that’s what I’m saying, just contact and understanding the platform that other people have, [00:51:00] their agenda that we didn’t know about. I thought it helped a lot that we could do that. I don’t know whether -- and I think it helped them, too. I do. But it’s still always them and us and it shouldn’t be. WALKER-HARPS: Who is currently living who was on that committee? Do you remember? Do you remember what -- do you know when it’s -- WALLACE: God, I guess Walter Jones and I. I hadn’t thought about that. WALKER-HARPS: Oh, yes, I hadn’t thought about Walter Jones because I’ve been trying to find somebody and all of the ones that I knew -- I knew Miss Fitzhugh and (inaudible) WALLACE: All of ’em dead. WALKER-HARPS: -- (dead?) (inaudible) WALLACE: Bob Crossfield, Bob Smalley. WALKER-HARPS: They’re all dead. WALLACE: All -- the Reeds, all of them. My pastor, he’s gone. I guess Jane, Bob’s wife is dead. Mary Fitzhugh’s husband, Fitzy, was a [00:52:00] pediatrician. He’s dead. He was on the comm-- I mean, I guess -- WALKER-HARPS: They all -- I can’t think of anybody who’s still alive. WALLACE: I wish I had somebody that was more -- could represent the ambitions and the accomplishments of that committee that I can remember. But I do know it was important. To me, it was important -- WALKER-HARPS: (inaudible) WALLACE: -- personally and I think it was important. WALKER-HARPS: And even today, if you ask somebody in the black community how do you account for the smoothness or the lack of total chaos, you might say, they would point back to that biracial committee and the willingness to step out and not be hidden but to step out on -- some stage at that time. WALLACE: I think it cost me something in my career, and -- political career. I think -- WALKER-HARPS: Probably so. WALLACE: -- there was some resentment -- WALKER-HARPS: Yes. WALLACE: -- among my peer group. But you got to put [00:53:00] that aside. WALKER-HARPS: Yes, yes. WALLACE: You do the right thing or try to do the right thing. I’ve never regretted, certainly. It was -- WALKER-HARPS: Well -- WALLACE: -- a great benefit to me. WALKER-HARPS: -- that worked with you and it worked with your children. You passed that on to your children, whereas we had others, like your friends, and probably did not. So, this is one reason why we still have these little pockets. WALLACE: You’re right. WALKER-HARPS: Yeah. WALLACE: You’re exactly right. WALKER-HARPS: See, you’re -- I was well received (inaudible) all the others that I knew, by your children, when they came to school we were well received by them. But then, there were others who came out of a household of hatred and you didn’t get that same (inaudible) WALLACE: Yeah, and there was more of them than us. WALKER-HARPS: Yeah! WALLACE: Certainly (inaudible) (laughs) WALKER-HARPS: Right. WALLACE: -- that’s the problem. WALKER-HARPS: And very definitely. WALLACE: Yeah, oh, and that’s what I’m saying. I think it’s gradually, maybe, the balance is swinging. I hope so. WALKER-HARPS: Are there other questions? JOHN CRUICKSHANK: It seems like [00:54:00] that idea of doing the right thing runs in the family. (laughter) Is that the key? I mean -- WALLACE: I don’t -- CRUICKSHANK: -- were you always like that as a child? Your mother had, apparently, had resentment toward African Americans. Did she, or -- WALLACE: Not resentment. It was not that. It was just this is the way it is. CRUICKSHANK: Yeah. WALLACE: It’s just, as I say, it’s like a fish swimming in the water. They don’t know they’re in water and that’s (overlapping dialogue ; inaudible) WALKER-HARPS: Well, it’s just -- CRUICKSHANK: -- it’s just the contact, the individuals that you happen to cross? That’s where you got your values as a child -- WALLACE: Well, I would say -- CRUICKSHANK: -- to get that idea (inaudible) WALLACE: -- a lot of us was from trying to understand yourself as far as a Christiana and it just -- it should work in every religion, really. Love people! CRUICKSHANK: So, there’s a certain amount of personality involved, I suppose, is there? Just be willing to ask those -- to do that, the [00:55:00] self-exploration, would you say, or? -- WALLACE: Well, you -- or, if you’re like me -- absolute superficial person. So, (laughter) you’re not introspective at all but there’s a certain feeling that you got, what’s right and what’s wrong. And sometimes, your religious teaching has a great deal of bearing on it. Sometimes, the (inaudible) CRUICKSHANK: I’m just trying to understand what it is that set you apart from all the others who were racist and -- WALLACE: I wish I could have an answer to that. Probably a combination of things. WALKER-HARPS: (inaudible) were different and Jill Rapperly were different. You found pockets in rural areas, some rural areas where they were a lot different from the resentment and that line was not as rigid as it would be in -- [00:56:00] for an example, I came from the country and it was a whole lot different for me when I got to Griffin. I guess you play with whoever lived -- WALLACE: Yeah! WALKER-HARPS: -- in the -- yeah, you played with whoever you had around you. You ate and you shared with the people who were around you. You couldn’t share with somebody who didn’t, so you either were going to stand out there all by yourself or you had to become a part of your environment. And that’s one of the things that happened, you -- that kind of put you on the same level and you did the same kind of work if you were earning a living. And that’s just my situation but -- and even here, there were families like (inaudible) and like the Cummings and this smaller family who had a person that’s working for them that they treated as parts of their family. And I happen to know that ’cause I lived with a lady [00:57:00] who worked for the Cummings and (inaudible) WALLACE: Who was the track star, Wyoming Tyus?. WALKER-HARPS: Tyus, yes. WALLACE: (inaudible) worked for the Smalleys for many years, you know? His -- WALKER-HARPS: Okay, yes. WALLACE: -- this -- my mother, she had a yardman, Jeness Sparks that lived on Solomon Street that -- she would have sacrificed us before she would have sacrificed Jen as the yard man, ’cause -- WALKER-HARPS: There were good? -- WALLACE: But she still -- Jeness wouldn’t come in and sit down at the table with us and eat a meal. That’s -- and that -- WALKER-HARPS: ’Cause that’s the difference. WALLACE: -- was just the -- she was not taught that way. It was just the way it was. WALKER-HARPS: Submissive. WALLACE: And you had to sort of break away from that. You’re asking me that question and I don’t know. I don’t think I’m unique but I do know that I have tried since I was an adult by, you know, being 25 or [00:58:00] 26, try to walk in the shoes of people that would -- that I would find the other people’s conduct offensive and if I would, Jewel would. I have -- it took me a long time before I could correct my friends telling stories or making -- WALKER-HARPS: Yes. WALLACE: -- references and using the N-word and I finally, within the last, really, 10 years, say, “Don’t do that again (laughter) or I’m going to get up and walk out, man!” We went in -- my wife and I were with a friend, prominent Atlanta man, in Scotland. And he was just telling these jokes. I said, “Don’t use that word again (laughs) or we’re going to pick up and fly home.” He said, “You’re serious, aren’t you?” And I said, “I am serious.” WALKER-HARPS: Just wouldn’t let him push you out? of the group. WALLACE: Yeah. (laughter) That’s right. WALKER-HARPS: Are there other questions? CRUICKSHANK: Just one other thing I’m curious about, going back to the [00:59:00] beginning of the interview. You’re talking about getting an African American from drunk driving charges, I think. You’re the one who got him off. How did you do that? (laughs) WALLACE: Well, I don’t know. I mean, it’s -- (laughter) if I could have an answer to how -- why a jury does anything -- CRUICKSHANK: Oh. WALLACE: -- after 80 years of -- 55 years of practice -- CRUICKSHANK: How did you build your case? I mean -- WALLACE: Well, it’s -- CRUICKSHANK: -- against anyone? WALLACE: Well, the question is -- remember this: the presumption is that you’re not guilty and they had to -- and you cross-examine and you try to find holes in their testimony. And I did pride myself on that ability, to cross-examine, that you could just keep digging at ’em and hope that they’ll trip up on something. And you don’t know, some little thing will come back. I tried a case in Barnseville. This was during the height of the kindergarten [01:00:00] molesting cases. This was about 15, 20 years ago. You remember that out in California, they had people convicted of saying that they were abusing these children, they were doing all these things to ’em? Well, it popped -- it was, like, hysteria. It popped up in Barnseville and this guy was charged. He had 16 counts. His daughter ran a daycare center and I was hired to go down there and represent him. And I did and I did the best I could and I made one mistake, I thought. Can I tell this story? (laughs) WALKER-HARPS: You can tell whatever you want to tell. (laughter) You can tell -- WALLACE: This -- WALKER-HARPS: -- whatever you want to tell. WALLACE: (laughs) -- this little girl, she was just as cute as she could be, about five. And she was [01:01:00] testifying against my client, Paw-Paw. And she said, “Well, he would -- he’d put me in his lap and he’d love me and put me in his lap.” And I said, well, I -- take care of this. So, I got on the stand and I put her in my lap and I said, “Just like this? Is this what Paw-Paw did?” “Yeah, but he had something hard between his legs.” I said, God, that was the worst -- you know, you’re supposed to not ever get into that thing. Well, I came back and sat with my client. I said, “I’m sorry, I just blew the case.” So, the -- we went on, tried the whole thing. The jury went out. They came back in and they said, “We have reached a verdict on one of the counts but we’re hopelessly deadlocked on all the others.” [01:02:00] And I said, well, I knew what it was. Well, they found him not guilty on some other count. (laughs) Didn’t pay any attention to that or didn’t hear what was said or didn’t know what I thought and mistried the rest of it. And he walked out of the courtroom. He said, “What do I do now?” I said, “Walk fast! (laughter) Get out of” -- and two weeks later, he was found -- the fatal victim of an accident in his barn where he had fallen on the combine and a stake had gotten driven somehow through his head. That ended that. Yeah, but you don’t? (overlapping dialogue ; inaudible) I wish I could answer your question. I wish I’d know why you got him off and why you didn’t or why they get -- WALKER-HARPS: You had an actual case of -- a replica of To Kill a Mockingbird. [01:03:00] CRUICKSHANK: Really? WALLACE: Mm-hmm. WALKER-HARPS: With the Copland case, would be a good parallel to what they did with the book and with the movie, To Kill a Mockingbird.” WALLACE: Well, again, I’ve got -- that’s a project that I’ve got on my mind right now, Jewel, is Addison Finch might be lauded as a hero but he actually was a rather poor lawyer. WALKER-HARPS: Yeah. WALLACE: He did not attack -- he did not present the case the way I would have done it. I mean, it was a lead pipe, he was going to lose it anyway. But he attacked on this rather awkward thing about being left-handed and right-handed. You remember the play? WALKER-HARPS: Yes, I remember. WALLACE: Well, what he should have done was attack the girl about her staging this thing by collecting the money, by sending her children off to the store downtown. See, never touched on that but just briefly but hammer on that. You made [01:04:00] this whole thing possible by planning, by saving your money, by sending the children, and he could have verified that ’cause the children were not there, remember? They were down getting their ice cream cone. He could’ve verified that by the white proprietor of the ice cream store that the children were down there. They were never down there any other time. But see, he didn’t go into all that. He went (inaudible) WALKER-HARPS: Write that book. (laughter) (inaudible) WALLACE: Y’all understand what I’m saying? There’s a -- WALKER-HARPS: I have to say -- WALLACE: -- he didn’t -- WALKER-HARPS: -- yes. WALLACE: -- that is a -- WALKER-HARPS: It’s probably (inaudible) WALLACE: -- that -- he was going to lose it but at least he would show her -- I mean, she deserved to have some punishment, too, (laughs) for lying about -- WALKER-HARPS: Sign of the times, probably. He was afraid to do that. WALLACE: Well, might have been. It might have been that but -- WALKER-HARPS: Or -- WALLACE: -- I had to -- when I was in the play and had the opportunity -- and I ask Norma, who runs that little theater -- you ought to go down there, Jewel, it’s good. WALKER-HARPS: I have been. WALLACE: Have you been? WALKER-HARPS: Mm-hmm, and I have been -- WALLACE: She runs -- [01:05:00] I advise all of y’all to go see what she does down there. WALKER-HARPS: I have been. And I’ve been trying to get in touch with her. WALLACE: Yeah, she would be a good -- WALKER-HARPS: (inaudible) WALLACE: -- one, too. WALKER-HARPS: -- because she was referred to me but I have not been to -- she hasn’t returned my call. I guess maybe I should call again. But I’m trying to reach her through somebody else. WALLACE: Yeah, she’s -- WALKER-HARPS: But yes, I’ve been. WALLACE: Anyway, I had the -- I said, I ask her, I said, “Can I do a little informal” -- and I’ve had the girl down and I did cross-examine her, just playing when we were there at practice one day, and doing that. And I enjoyed it and the girl, she didn’t know what we were doing?. (laughter) And I said, “This is what Atticus should have been doing rather than this other defense.” WALKER-HARPS: Yes. Well, what an interesting interview. Wonderful. Any more questions? If not, we’re going to (inaudible) WALLACE: Are you from Virginia or Charleston? CRUICKSHANK: I’m from Canada. WALLACE: Oh! (laughter) Well, you can’t understand any of this, now. [01:06:00] (laughter) CRUICKSHANK: I saw To Kill A Mockingbird when I was about three years old, I think. (laughter) WALLACE: That’s a great story but it -- CRUICKSHANK: Yeah. WALLACE: -- re-read it sometime. They’ve got somebody in Broad-- they’ve got a new production in Broadway -- WALKER-HARPS: Yes, WALLACE: -- that I would really love to see. WALKER-HARPS: I would love to see that, too, yes, great. WALLACE: Am I excused? (laughter) WALKER-HARPS: We want to express our appreciation to you. We thoroughly enjoyed -- we’ve not had that -- you filled a gap that we had not had, right, guys? BRAMAN: Absolutely. WALKER-HARPS: Yes. And we just appreciate you taking the time and your willingness to talk -- WALLACE: Oh, it’s my pleasure! Really was, Jewel. I’ve done so much that’s hurt my feelings with the other race in my lifetime. I feel like I’m -- every minute I can atone for some of it, I’m better off (inaudible) WALKER-HARPS: Well, you did. Thank you so much, (laughter) thank you. WALLACE: Oh, I enjoyed it. WALKER-HARPS: Thank you, guys, everybody. WALLACE: I’m glad this is once in a lifetime experience. (laughter) WALKER-HARPS: Ah, well -- [01:07:00] Resources may be used under the guidelines described by the U.S. Copyright Office in Section 107, Title 17, United States Code (Fair use). Parties interested in production or commercial use of the resources should contact the Russell Library for a fee schedule. audio 0 purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL418GAA/findingaid
Location
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Griffin, Georgia
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67 minutes
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https://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL418GAA-022/ohms
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Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
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Interview with Howard Wallace, March 26, 2019
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RBRL418GAA-022
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Howard Wallace
Jewel Walker-Harps
Art Cain
John Cruickshank
Rich Braman
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audio
oral histories
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Religion
Race relations
Discrimination
Description
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Howard Wallace grew up in the 1930s in Griffin, Georgia. As a young adult, Wallace joined the Biracial Committee where he worked on the integration process of Griffin. In this interview, Wallace talks about his upbringing, the racial aspects of religion and politics, his work as a lawyer, and interactions with the Ku Klux Klan.
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2019-03-26
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http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
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sound
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Griffin, Georgia
OHMS
-
Dublin Core
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Title
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Griffin African American Oral History Project
Subject
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Georgia--History, Local
African Americans--History
Georgia--Communities
Description
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The Griffin African American Oral History Project is a collaboration between the Griffin Branch NAACP, the Griffin Campus Library of the University of Georgia, and the Richard B. Russell Library. The seed was planted in the meetings of the Educational Prosperity Initiative which is also chaired by the president of the Griffin Branch NAACP, Jewel Walker-Harps. Collaborators on the project include: Griffin Housing Authority; Spalding County Collaborative; Fairmont Alumni Association; University of Georgia—Athens and Griffin campuses; and the Educational Prosperity Initiative, which is an affiliate of the Spalding County Collaborative and others. Interviewers on the project include: John Cruickshank, librarian at UGA-Griffin Campus Library; Jewel Walker-Harps, President of the Griffin, GA Branch of the NAACP; Art Cain, coordinator of Continuing Education for UGA-Griffin; Be-Atrice Cunningham, project manager for College of Agricultural and Environmental Science for Griffin; and Ellen Bauske, senior public service associate at the Georgia Center for Urban Agriculture in Griffin. Rich Braman was the sound engineer for this project. <br />The Griffin African American Oral History Project intends to document the experiences of people who lived in Fairmont Community in Griffin, Georgia during the civil rights era and through its transformation to the present day.<br /><br />All interviews in this collection have been indexed in OHMS.
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Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
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Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
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2015-2018
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http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
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Oral histories
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RBRL418GAA
Coverage
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Griffin, Georgia
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
OHMS Object Text
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5.4 2019-09-26 Interview with Wyomia Tyus, September 26, 2019 RBRL418GAA-024 104 minutes RBRL418GAA Griffin African American Oral History Project Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies, University of Georgia Wyomia Tyus Jewel Walker-Harps Art Cain Ellen Bauske Rich Braman 1:|24(10)|33(17)|44(11)|58(10)|70(10)|84(4)|97(6)|109(7)|126(12)|139(17)|157(10)|179(4)|213(6)|231(11)|245(15)|270(5)|297(13)|313(16)|327(13)|339(15)|353(5)|364(18)|379(17)|393(4)|417(7)|433(2)|444(8)|460(9)|496(11)|512(7)|526(3)|540(11)|552(4)|563(11)|576(2)|591(9)|603(8)|617(10)|631(6)|648(10)|671(11)|683(7)|713(12)|725(11)|749(9)|763(12)|774(7)|785(14)|805(8)|818(9)|834(5)|846(11)|863(3)|875(2)|890(8)|903(3)|920(4)|941(15)|957(2)|971(3)|984(7)|1004(2)|1016(11)|1027(15)|1040(12)|1061(12)|1079(12)|1105(10)|1118(9)|1127(16)|1140(7)|1154(5)|1163(12)|1175(7)|1185(9)|1206(5)|1224(4)|1238(9)|1249(8)|1269(5)|1281(11)|1302(7)|1315(4)|1332(7)|1345(11)|1359(8)|1373(9)|1384(13)|1402(11)|1425(13)|1437(15)|1457(6)|1468(17)|1481(9)|1500(4)|1547(12)|1561(9)|1582(10)|1622(3)|1634(10)|1660(6)|1702(12)|1735(16) 0 Kaltura audio < ; iframe id=" ; kaltura_player" ; src=" ; https://cdnapisec.kaltura.com/p/1727411/sp/172741100/embedIframeJs/uiconf_id/26879422/partner_id/1727411?iframeembed=true& ; playerId=kaltura_player& ; entry_id=1_yi6ma5o0& ; flashvars[localizationCode]=en& ; amp ; flashvars[leadWithHTML5]=true& ; amp ; flashvars[sideBarContainer.plugin]=true& ; amp ; flashvars[sideBarContainer.position]=left& ; amp ; flashvars[sideBarContainer.clickToClose]=true& ; amp ; flashvars[chapters.plugin]=true& ; amp ; flashvars[chapters.layout]=vertical& ; amp ; flashvars[chapters.thumbnailRotator]=false& ; amp ; flashvars[streamSelector.plugin]=true& ; amp ; flashvars[EmbedPlayer.SpinnerTarget]=videoHolder& ; amp ; flashvars[dualScreen.plugin]=true& ; amp ; flashvars[Kaltura.addCrossoriginToIframe]=true& ; amp ; & ; wid=1_m6jvivrr" ; width=" ; 400" ; height=" ; 285" ; allowfullscreen webkitallowfullscreen mozAllowFullScreen allow=" ; autoplay * ; fullscreen * ; encrypted-media *" ; sandbox=" ; allow-forms allow-same-origin allow-scripts allow-top-navigation allow-pointer-lock allow-popups allow-modals allow-orientation-lock allow-popups-to-escape-sandbox allow-presentation allow-top-navigation-by-user-activation" ; frameborder=" ; 0" ; title=" ; Kaltura Player" ; > ; < ; /iframe> ; 49 Growing up in Griffin-Spalding, Georgia I'm Karen Wyomia Tyus, and I was... Tyus talks about her family, as her mother and father were a dry cleaner and tenant farmer, respectively. Tyus describes growing up in a farming housing establishment. Tyus explains how, as a child, she often played with white boys, as the girls were not allowed to play outside. Tyus talks about how her father taught her about nature, and encouraged her to stay active. Tyus recalls how her father encouraged equality among their siblings. Ben Brown ; Griffin-Spalding County, Georgia ; Jim Crow ; nature 428 Dealing with discrimination And for that to happen... Tyus shares how her community was more integrated than the surrounding area, which she sees as a result of growing up in the country. Tyus explains how her father taught the kids to deserve and give respect to others. Tyus recalls how the farm housing burned down, and she describes the conditions under which her family lived on the farm. Ben Brown ; community ; segregation 873 Education and father's work We still to the day don't know... Tyus shares how her father emphasized the need for an education among his children, as much of the family worked as farmers. Tyus describes the bus route and members of the community, as she attended the all black Anne-Shockley Elementary School. Anne-Shockley Elementary School ; farming 1270 Hunting / Experiences in primary school I learned at a very early age... Tyus talks about hunting as a child, and the ways she was taught about gun safety. Tyus recalls how it was difficult to play at school since she was a tom-boy. Tyus explains how her father encouraged her to express herself, regardless of gender stereotypes. Anne-Shockley Elementary School ; Fairmount High School ; hunting 1706 School sports Now when did you meet... Tyus talks about joining the track team at Fairmount High School, and her P.E. teacher, Mrs. Kimbro. Tyus recalls how the girls team for Track and Field operated at her Fairmount High School. Tyus explains her experience at a track summit at Tennesee State University. Tyus talks about how her father's death spurred her interest in sports. Annie Shockley Elementary School ; Fairmount High School ; Fort Valley ; Francis Dallas ; Tennessee State University 2072 Summit at Tennessee State When you graduate from high school... Tyus talks about how she was invited to join a summit for track and field at Tennessee State University. Tyus explains how the staff from Fairmount High School raised enough money for her to attend the summit. Tyus describes her experience at the summit. Fairmount High School ; Tennessee State University ; track and field 2487 Opportunities in sports So that was it, I mean that was... Tyus recalls how the teaching community of Fairmount High School was incredibly supportive in students' endeavors. Tyus explains how track and field opened opportunities for her outside of Griffin, Georgia. Tyus talks about all the contributions Ed Temple bought to female black athletics. Ed Temple ; Fairmount High School ; teaching ; Tennessee State University 2897 Parental influence Excuse me, I'm curious about the young lady ... Tyus talks about her opposition in track and field at the Tennessee State University track summit. Tyus talks about the social pressures put on women in the African American community. Tyus describes her parent's influence on her desire to attain excellence in everything she did. gender stereotypes ; parents ; Tennessee State University ; Track and Field 3325 Parental influences (cont.) I mean, I was always strong willed... Tyus continues to describe the way in which her father made sure that his children were raised without having to do the typical manual labor of African Americans at the time. Tyus talks about her decision to move to Los Angeles, California, where she worked as a teacher. Tyus continues to describe her time as a student at Tennessee State University. dairy farming ; Los Angeles, California ; Tennessee State University 3730 Attending University / Civil Rights Movement I did remember Mr. Temple ... Tyus talks about her first semester at Tennessee State University, and the difficulties she faced as a student, especially after the death of her father. Tyus recalls how her travels helped her in understanding herself and her surroundings. Tyus talks about the black power movement and how it tied into her experience in track and field. black power movement ; Civil Rights Movement ; Ed Temple ; Olympics ; Tennessee State University ; track and field 4162 Discrimination in the Olympics And that was experienced by us... Tyus talks about the discrimination she faced as an Olympic runner during the Tokyo Olympics. Tyus explains the methods of subtle protest against both sexual and race discrimination utilized by athletes around the world. discrimination ; Ed Temple ; Tokyo Olympics 4596 Black athletes and public reactions They were called the Texas ... Tyus talks about how American black runners in the Olympics were for the most part ignored in the eyes of the public despite highly outperforming their white counterparts. Tyus recalls the ways in which Ed Temple helped the African American community. discrimination ; Ed Temple ; racism ; Texas Bouffants 5013 Coming home from the Olympics I don't really truly remember... Tyus describes the reaction of the Griffin, Georgia community to her success in the Olympics. Tyus shares her advise to younger generation, as she stresses the importance of an education and respect for others. Tyus talks about the rest of her family and their work to obtain an education. 1964 Olympics ; 1968 Olympics ; Ed Temple ; education ; Fairmount High School ; Griffin, Georgia 5417 Reflections And the stuff he said to me... Tyus reflects on the coaching methods of coach Ed Temples. Tyus talks about the ways in which Griffin has changed throughout the years. Tyus describes the way in which politics is present in the sports realm. Ed Temple ; Griffin, Georgia ; Tennessee State University ; Wyomia Tyus Park 5821 Speaking around Georgia Well, you know, I ... Tyus talks about her wish for her story to inspire others, despite the fact that some Universities withheld her the opportunity to speak about her story. Tyus relates some of the other places she has spoken. community ; Georgia Technical University ; Griffin, Georgia Oral history RBRL418GAA-024_Tyus RICH BRAMAN:We can start any time. JEWEL WALKER-HARPS:Ready? Today is September the 26th. We are on the campus of the University of Georgia in Griffin, Georgia. This is the -- our oral history project, and we have -- our guest today is Wyomia Tyus. I' ; m Jewel Walker-Harps of the Griffin Branch, NAACP. ART CAIN:I' ; m Art Cain, director of continuing education program here on the University of Georgia Griffin Campus. ELLEN BAUSKE:I' ; m Ellen Bauske, program coordinator for the Center for Urban Ag. BRAMAN:I' ; m Rich Braman with the Center for Urban Ag. I' ; m the developer. WALKER-HARPS:And -- WYOMIA TYUS:And I' ; m Wy-- WALKER-HARPS:-- and now our special guest, Wyomia Tyus. TYUS:Okay, I' ; m Wyomia Tyus, and I was born and raised in Griffin, Spalding County, Georgia. I was born on a dairy -- well, born on a dair-- raised on a dairy farm right outside of the little Griffin airport. My dad was a tenant farmer ; my mom worked the dry cleaners, so they both worked the whole -- well for years. (laughs) They... I have three older brothers, Jackie, Jimmy Lee, and Willie. Jackie and Jimmy Lee have passed on, so have my parents, Willie and Marie Tyus, they have gone, and it' ; s just my brother Willie. We called him Junior, so I will probably be referring to him as Junior sometimes in the report, so... So it' ; s just the two of us that are remaining. We -- in the community or the area in which we grew up, the farm was owned by Ben Brown. He had a big farmhouse at the top of the hill, we always said, and we lived in the -- yeah, we lived down in the -- where the dairy was. And it was a big, huge house, like -- I' ; m trying to think, one, two, three -- three large bedrooms, a long hallway, kitchen, living room, and all of us lived there. We were the only black family that was living right in that area, so throughout my life, like, up until I was 14, we played with white kids. We played with white boys. We could not play with white girls because they were not allowed to play with us, so we played with white boys. So all my life, I have played with boys. I started out playing with my brothers and then when I was playing with them, it was always trying to keep up with them and also trying to run away from the fights. (laughs) And we -- I enjoyed, well, my childhood mostly. I remember from my childhood, that' ; s always stuck with me, is that my father and my brother Junior and I, we used to go for walks every Saturday or either be on a Sunday because the woods... Ben Brown had a huge, huge farm, and we could -- you could walk it. He sold all that later on, but we used to walk the woods and just go... And as we' ; ll walk in the woods, right, you know, just being with family. And my dad not so much teaching us anything or saying you need to know these things, but in his talks, it was like we would go pick -- like I said, it was in the summer, we would pick berries or something like that. He would always say, " ; You need to be mindful of just sticking your hands in there not just for the little stickers you can get in your finger but snakes live in there. They love to be around those berries, so you should not be there, also wasp nests and all those things," ; you know just teaching us the little things about nature. And that you just don' ; t -- when you' ; re a child, you' ; re not thinking about that. You' ; re out there in the woods playing, throwing dirt, throwing rocks. And I remember my brother and I used to just throw rocks and pine cones to see who could do that, climb trees, you know just being free. And my fath--you know, at the time I was growing up, young girls were not supposed to be that active. They were not supposed to be playing sports with boys at all. Girls did girly things, and boys did whatever boys -- boy things. And I was truly not interested in the girly things, although my mom wanted me to be. She always -- I always got a doll. (laughs) I always had a doll not that I played with it that much but -- because I was always out playing ba-- some type of sports with my brothers and all of that. But the walks (inaudible) my brother and I would have at knife, and we would whittle, and we could do all those -- and we would do all of that and just talk about living in this community, playing with the white girl out there. I can remember my -- that they didn' ; t want... We shouldn' ; t play with the girls. We can' ; t -- with a girl, I don' ; t want a girl on my team. And my dad used -- my brothers weren' ; t saying that, but the other people. The other -- the white kids we were playing with, they would say -- they started out saying it, let me say it that way. And then my dad would tell my brothers, " ; Look, she' ; s just as good as you guys if not better. I don' ; t know why you don' ; t let her play. You know she has to play. If she doesn' ; t play with you guys, who is she going to play with?" ; So he made it very clear very early that I always had to be a part of whatever was going on when it came to playing outside or inside or whatever. And I can remember like one of the first times we went out playing because we played right where our farm -- with the house that we live in. We' ; d had all the acreage where the cows roam and all that and then they had -- like from our front yard, which was very large, to the side, there was a big field, and that was our football field, and that was our basketball field -- court, so we played right there. And the people there are whites that lived across the street, and they had kids that were, oh, the same age of my older brothers. And then Ben Brown had children, all the ages. He had -- well, his youngest child, the -- well, not his youngest, his youngest boy I think -- yes Lewis, that' ; s the one we played with. He -- you know, we pu-- he would always come down, and we would come to the dairy, and we all played. And we just played ball, and once they were at -- all the kids would come play, they didn' ; t want me to play. So my brothers would say, " ; Oh, just take her, you know just let her play." ; " ; No, no, we don' ; t want her on our team," ; so I would have to -- I would always be on my brothers' ; team. And after that, they -- I think the first game we played, they realized in the first five minutes or so, they had made a bad mistake (laughs) because they realized I should -- they should have picked me. Then, it was like the next time we go to play, " ; We want her on the team, we want her," ; " ; No, you can' ; t have her, no," ; or I would say, " ; Nope, you didn' ; t choose me the first time ; I won' ; t play the second time." ; Now, you have to remember, we were growing up in the Jim Crow South. And for that to happen, for white kids and black kids to play together, that was not pretty -- I don' ; t know. I just think it was not that much heard of and especially where they could come in our house, but we couldn' ; t go in theirs. They could if we allowed, you know, but they could only be there if our parents were there. They couldn' ; t just come in and sit around and all that. We -- but they -- we never did. I think my older brother -- oh, no, my younger brother may-- no, my older brother got an opportunity maybe to go in the house. If they went in the house, it' ; s for cleaning or work in the house, so... To be in a situation like that, you didn' ; t think about it, right? When I look at it, I didn' ; t... You know, I knew that -- ah, I knew how -- there was ru-- there were so much rules, so to speak, but that' ; s how the times were. Blacks could do this, blacks... And we lived in the country, so I was not really exposed to what was going on in the city. CAIN:So you had a peer-to-peer relationship with the kids? WALKER-HARPS:Yes. CAIN:But then you had these institutional issues out here. TYUS:We surely did, exactly. But for us, our parents, I felt, always wanted to make a safe haven for us. They wanted us to be safe, and they taught us, first of all, you had to respect yourself, and you don' ; t let anybody disrespect you. That was the key, and that was how we related to the white kids in the neighborhood. Now, we never really had any trouble with Ben Brown' ; s children or the people that lived across the street from us. But Ben Brown also had houses on his farm, and he would have -- they would be vacant, and he would rent them out, and it' ; s usually to whites. And when -- I can remember very vividly that there was a family that moved in, and they definitely didn' ; t want to play with -- well, play with us. And they wanted to call us all kinds of names, the N-word especially. And that was not going to be heard because my dad said, " ; You' ; re not going to -- they can' ; t play with you, you can' ; t play with them if they going to -- they' ; re going to call out your name. You have a name, they have a name, they need to use it." ; And that' ; s how it was. And they came around to play, but they started saying words, the N-word, calling us the N-word, so I can remember my -- we used to do this. We used to draw a line in the sand or in the dirt and say, " ; Okay, that' ; s your property ; this is our property. You step across on our property and call us those names ; you' ; re going to have to pay for it." ; And so that' ; s... I can remember one of the kids, one of the brothers that came across, and he' ; s saying these words, and then he steps across the line and calls us the N-word. And then my brother says to me -- says to them, " ; Well, I' ; m not going to beat you up ; I' ; m going to let my sister beat you up." ; (laughter) BAUSKE:Did you? TYUS:Yes. (laughter) BAUSKE:I -- TYUS:It didn' ; t -- it was more like he said it, and as soon as he said it, I hit him in his stomach, and he went over and then I hit him again and then -- you know? And I think that was it. That was the only incident we' ; ve ever had. Because everybody knew that we were -- we as kids know all the other stuff that was going on, but we were respect -- we expect -- we respected each other. We talked to each other, we didn' ; t call each other names, we might -- we got in fights, but that didn' ; t last. It' ; s like you' ; re on the playground, you get in a fight, oh, you' ; re going to forget it. And that' ; s how it was with us. And -- but mainly from what I can remember and I can recall, that was about the only incident we had. My parents still would say to my brothers, " ; Especially when you go over to work in one of these white people' ; s homes or do something in their yard, you go up on the porch and ring the doorbell and knock on the door, whatever you had to do and then you step off the porch. And if the husband or the man of the house is not there, you do not go in their house, and you do not stand there and stare this person in the face." ; Those were the kinds of things that -- CAIN:So that was -- TYUS:-- they felt -- CAIN:-- the protection? TYUS:-- to protect you. Yes. It was not -- you know, it was more like I said. They wanted you to be safe and they -- and these are the things that they taught us. Now, for me, I didn' ; t do any work. (laughs) I didn' ; t have to. My dad didn' ; t really want us doing any... He never allowed us to pick cotton ; he never allowed us to work on the dairy. He said that he has worked and he will work hard enough, so we would never have to do that because he wants his kids to have better, yes. CAIN:Okay, so what was the agreement that your family had with the Browns that allowed you to stay there, and how far back did that go in your family? BAUSKE:And a kind of related question, is your house, childhood home still standing? TYUS:Okay. The house that -- in which we lived in burned down in ' ; 59. Was it ' ; 59? I think it was, yeah, in 1959, so it was no longer there. And the property in which we lived on, there' ; s subdivision -- they have a big house and subdivision out there past the airport. BAUSKE:Yeah, it' ; s not Lake Louise. I know where there' ; s a street called (Brown' ; s) Acres. TYUS:Yeah, that' ; s also all his farm, all that land -- BAUSKE:Okay, that' ; s his farm, okay. TYUS:-- all that -- all those homes, all those homes, all -- BAUSKE:Yes, off Maddox -- TYUS:-- as far as you can see -- BAUSKE:Yes, up Maddox -- TYUS:-- that' ; s all his property. BAUSKE:-- Avenue. TYUS:He sold all of that, yes, so those are -- that' ; s all his property. BAUSKE:And those homes were probably built in the ' ; 60s I think, maybe? TYUS:I don' ; t know. Because when I left in ' ; 63 -- because when our house burned down, my -- it was very traumatic for my father and all of us. But we -- he never really went back to the dairy to work every day. And he had some -- also some health issues, so he never did because within a year, my father died after the house burned down, so... So that and you asked another question? CAIN:Yeah. WALKER-HARPS:I' ; m sorry. CAIN:The agreement that your parents had with the Browns that allowed you-all to live on the property. And was it something that had been intergenerational or is that something that -- where you-all the first of your family to live on that property? Just how did that work? TYUS:I don' ; t know if we were the first. I mean I just know that when I was born, that' ; s where we -- and -- because my parents lived in Pomona, Georgia. I know my mom, and they lived there and then when I was born, it was at the -- you know, I was taken right to the dairy area. I know the agreement was the fact that my father worked the farm, and I -- that' ; s all we know. And you had to also remember they didn' ; t tell us very much. (laughter) And during that time, they didn' ; t tell kids. That was not your -- that was not for you to worry about, it was for them to worry about, and it goes back to what my father would always say, " ; It' ; s for you." ; He would always tell us, " ; I have to do the work, you go guys go -- your work is you need to go to school and get your lesson," ; which means you need to go to school and get an education. He didn' ; t want us picking anybody' ; s cotton or working in anybody' ; s dairy or work -- doing really hard work. He wanted us to be able to go to school and get an education and get further than he did in school. And we still to the day -- my brother and I laugh about it. We still to the day don' ; t know how far he got in school because he would always tell us, " ; I went to school one day, and the teacher wasn' ; t there." ; So we don' ; t know what type of education he had. And my mom, I know she went to eighth grade, so, but they wanted us to have a lot more, and they worked hard for us to do it like a lot of families did. They worked hard, they wanted their children to do, but there were a lot of families that they -- everybody in the family had to work the farm or pick cotton and all that. My grandmother, my dad' ; s mom, that' ; s what was happening. That' ; s -- that -- they were sharecroppers, and they worked the farm, and they did that. But I know my dad took care of the dairy and not only with -- just him, Ben Brown also. The two of them worked the dairy. CAIN:Was that here in Griffin where your grandparents were? TYUS:No, my dad' ; s family is from Jackson -- CAIN:Jackson. WALKER-HARPS:-- Georgia, mm-hmm. So my dad every morning at 5:00 in the morning, he had to get up and go milk the cows and all that. And I can remember being the -- before I went into elementary school, first grade or anything, I could be with my brothers. And we had to ride the bus. We rode a bus to school. The bus would pick -- we were the first to be picked up, and we were the last to be dropped off, so we had an hour ride every morning every day -- ah, two hours -- CAIN:So -- TYUS:-- hours, two hours going and two -- an hou-- one hour going, I' ; m sorry, and one hour coming back. CAIN:So you were by that day' ; s standards, sorry, not really in the city of Griffin. You were -- TYUS:I was not. CAIN:-- in the country. And then they had you catch a bus to get to -- was it Fairmont? TYUS:Annie Shockley Elementary School. (laughs) Yeah. WALKER-HARPS:In a bus with only black children? TYUS:Yes. It wasn' ; t -- the school' ; s not integrated at the time. So where we had to go was Annie Shockley Elementary, but there were other elementary schools in the city of Griffin. But this was like... And I don' ; t know if Annie Shockley is still around, but it' ; s over there near -- what was that street? I don' ; t know if you guys know Griffin, but by Boyd Road and all those places. I don' ; t know what that -- WALKER-HARPS:Annie Shockley is -- or -- CAIN:What, Anne Street? WALKER-HARPS:Anne Street I believe now, Anne Street School. TYUS:But, yeah, we would -- that -- so that' ; s where we went to school, so the bus would come pick us up. Now, we -- there was a white school near us that we could' ; ve walked, but that wasn' ; t happening. (laughs) And we went to -- you know, my brother Junior and I would get on the bus and.... Because we' ; re the first, we had to -- we would always sit behind the bus driver. We knew him and uh, so we would... And it got to where we -- that was our seat there no matter what. Even at the school, we get on the bus -- if we weren' ; t the first to get on the bus, nobody could sit there because the bus driver was always letting us sit there. So (laughs) we were going to be the first one on, and we had to ride and go pick up other students and go. And it took us an hour to pick up -- by the time we picked up everybody and got to school, it was about an hour. And then when we come home, the same thing, so we' ; ll be the last to be dropped off. Sometimes, he might' ; ve -- a couple of times, I can remember that the bus driver dropped us off first, but usually, that was just his route, so... I don' ; t know where (inaudible) that -- CAIN:And that started when you were in the first grade? TYUS:First grade, yeah. And my brothers had gone before that because they were older. Well, my two older brothers and then -- because I know with my brother Jackie and Jimmy -- Jimmy Lee, they may have started school at -- up in Pomona. They had that one-room school near at the church. There' ; s a church, Macedonia Church, that' ; s the church we belong to. And they had a little schoolhouse, a brick... Well, let' ; s see. What do you call those? Cinder block schoolhouse where you had just one room, and you were in grades by the seats you sat in, so... But I didn' ; t have that ; my older brothers did. CAIN:While you' ; re talking about the Browns and while we' ; re still there, have you maintained any kind of relationship with any other descendants? Do you know anything about whatever happened to them or...? TYUS:No, because once we -- I -- my mom, when my mom was living and my mom used to come to California on -- every year, right? And I know one -- the Lewis, the one that we always played with had moved to Santa Barbara, California. And I know my mom had stayed in contact with -- I don' ; t know which Browns. And she had gotten that information, but we never got a chance to see each other because she will always say, " ; I' ; m going to get that information, and we' ; re going." ; " ; Yeah," ; and I said, " ; Yeah, get it because Santa Barbara, a couple of hours from Los Angeles," ; and I said, " ; We could go and find him," ; and all of that. And I don' ; t know if they' ; re still living. I don' ; t know because it was four boys and two girls. So I don' ; t know what' ; s going -- or what happened when that -- all that took place, all right, because I was not around. That was just not... I was -- I went Tennessee State I think when most of all that happened. Because I left Griffin in ' ; 63 to go off to college, and that' ; s -- you know, I will come back, but there' ; s no reconnection. I know my brother Jimmy Lee, he had a big connection with the people that -- the white boys that lived across the street down the road and all of that because he -- even as an adult. Because he used to go hunting with them and all of that and they keep in contact and all that. And even like when my mom was pretty sick and she was in the hospice, I was out there, and this one guy came up to me, and he says... Like I guess he -- somebody had told him my mom was there, but he had a family member that was also there. And he came up to me, and he goes, " ; Sister," ; because that' ; s what they called me and although -- you know they all called me sister. And he said, " ; I' ; m --" ; and I can' ; t -- God, which one was it? I can' ; t think of his name, but he told me who it was, and I knew that my brother Junior was there. And he said, " ; Oh, yeah, you know, we..." ; And my brother Junior sees him now even. Yeah, I don' ; t -- but I don' ; t see them. But they do. You know it was alwa-- it' ; s always been a good friendship. I know when my brother Jimmy Lee died, it was like I -- I mean the church was packed half-and-half pretty much because Jimmy Lee always kept in contact with them. And they had -- Jimmy Lee had trucks, and they' ; d go hunting and all that stuff because we grew up hunting too. That was the other thing we had. My -- I mean I learned at a very early age, maybe be seven or so about gu-- well, we... There was always a gun in the house. We had a sh-- my dad always had a shotgun in the house, but we never and ever, ever, ever touched it. We were too scared. (laughter) We were too scared about -- even we would go in the room where my dad -- in their bedroom, and if we would jump on the bed, which young kids do, and play around, we never touched the gun. It never fell or anything, but we were taught the safety of guns. We were taught the fact that the gun is only used for hunting and we did. You know we had rabbits, squirrels, and all those things, so, and that' ; s how we used the gun. And my father taught us the safety of how to use it, when to use it, and never pull a gun on anybody unless -- you know that' ; s something. Once you pull the gun, that' ; s your issue there. You' ; re going to have to use it, or they' ; re going to use it on you, so, but we never did. And we never had trouble with white kids doing the same thing because their guns were the same. The way every-- everyone was just -- that was just how life was there. It' ; s not like that now, but that' ; s how it was then. CAIN:Talk a little bit about your elementary school experience, and you went to Fairmont? TYUS:Mm-hmm, I did. I went -- (laughter) I went to Annie Shockley Elementary, and school was something for me. Growing up with my brothers, I was al-- they always called me a tomboy, and I don' ; t -- and all I felt, that I was just a person that enjoyed being outside. I enjoyed competing and then -- I mean just trying to -- not always being the best, just the fact that I could go out there and do those things, and I wanted to do it. I wanted to be the best person to -- I want to be the person that could climb the tree the fastest or ride my bike the fastest. I always want to do that. And when I went to -- I think going to elementary school and all that, they didn' ; t have any -- there was no sports for girls, yeah, nothing. The biggest thing we had was May Day, which you don' ; t do anything but sack races, (laughs) and that was it. And then like at lunchtime and stuff like that, boys could play football, and they could do all that, and I would always just be sitting and wanting to jump out there, run out and then do -- and be a part, but girls can' ; t do that. I can remember trying to play that, and I wa-- the teachers say, " ; Girls play over here, the boys play there," ; hmm, okay. And I was a kid that wore pants to school all the time. And I can remember teachers telling my mom, " ; Does she have a dress?" ; asking her, " ; Does she have a dress?" ; And she says, " ; Yes," ; and " ; Well, she needs to wear dresses sometime," ; and I' ; m like, " ; I can' ; t wear a dress. Well, how am I going to play and jump around and like..." ; (laughs) BAUSKE:Can I ask? TYUS:Sure. BAUSKE:What sports were you playing? TYUS:What sports? BAUSKE:Yeah. TYUS:Well, I played -- like with my brothers, I played the football and basketball with them and so-- and baseball. So that' ; s that -- that' ; s on the farm, but they let the boys play football and all that stuff and run and jump, and we did a lot of running, did a lot of bike racing in our bikes, and all those kind of things. So those are the things that I did as a child on the dairy farm. But when you went -- and then we went to elementary school and we started in school, girls have certain roles they wanted you to (play?). And I didn' ; t want that role, jump rope and London Bridge is falling down, boring. (laughter) BAUSKE:Jump rope is better than it used to be. (laughter) TYUS:Yes, but I still can' ; t jump, so I don' ; t know. (laughter) So that... So I can just remember the teacher saying to my mom I should wear dresses, and I' ; m -- " ; I don' ; t want a dress, I don' ; t want to wear a dress." ; I can remember and remember kind of to revert -- to go back. When I was six maybe or I guess when I turned six or so, it was Christmastime, and my brother Junior wanted a cowboy outfit, and I wanted a cowboy outfit, and my mother says, " ; No, we' ; ll get you a cowgirl outfit." ; I said, " ; No, I want a cowboy outfit." ; " ; No, you get -- you can have a cowgirl outfit," ; and I' ; m -- " ; I' ; m not going to wear that, I don' ; t (inaudible) want a cowgirl outfit, I want a cowboy outfit." ; And my dad said to her, " ; You know she' ; s so -- she' ; s not going to wear it if you buy it, she' ; s not going to wear it. You know how she is ; she' ; s not going to wear it." ; And that morning at Christmas morning, we got up, and I had a cowboy outfit. (laughs) CAIN:Wow. TYUS:And so I always said -- and both of my brother and I had the same outfit and we... People used to thought -- think we were twins, but we weren' ; t. So my mom went and get our pictures taken in the cowboy outfit, and the guy says, " ; Oh, what a -- two cute little boys," ; and I went, " ; I' ; m not a boy." ; And my mom said, " ; See, this is why you need that cowgirl outfit." ; (laughter) So she pulled my braids out so that he could see. (laughs) But I did all -- it was... You know my -- I just admire my parents for them letting me be who I wanted to be and not put the restrictions that girls have to do that. And I think more -- my father really was the one that was behind that, and my mom was more, " ; Well, you need to learn how to do these things," ; and it... To get back to wearing a dress at the school and all that, and my mom said, " ; Well, she wears a dress to church," ; and I did. And so they kept say-- my mom kept saying, " ; You' ; ve got to wear a dress to school," ; so my dad came up with, " ; Well, this is how we' ; ll just get around this. You wear your pants and put your dress over it." ; I was okay with that and that' ; s -- but -- and then now, that' ; s what they do all the time, and so... (laughs) So but -- CAIN:(You were twins?). TYUS:So that' ; s what -- you know? So Annie Shockley, well that was my memories. Annie Shockley, it was -- I mean I enjoy school there. And I think about the teachers that we had, they were -- they reminded me a lot of my parents in the sense that they really were so encouraging, and they wanted you to do more and wanted you to definitely get your lessons so to speak. And they wanted you to just really be proud of who you were. And, yeah, well, at -- again talking about the times, that was... I guess that was the time when a lot -- the teachers there, they were not all -- they weren' ; t from Griffin. They came from different parts of different little counties or -- and not all of them but most of them came from different counties around. And they were always saying, " ; Well, there' ; s so much out there for you to learn," ; and they were so encouraging trying to get us there. And at the time when I was in school, they were also -- when they could swat you, they could give you, but my dad said, " ; No, that' ; s not going to happen. I don' ; t whip my kids, so nobody else can, so..." ; But they could do that when we were in school, so... WALKER-HARPS:Your teachers were mostly from someplace else over at -- TYUS:I' ; m sorry? WALKER-HARPS:Your teachers were mostly from someplace else over at Griffin? TYUS:Mm-hmm. Yup, they were. WALKER-HARPS:Now, when did you meet (Ernestine?) Kimbrough? Was that high school or --? TYUS:That' ; s high school. WALKER-HARPS:That' ; s high school. TYUS:Yeah. So that' ; s Annie Shockley. After Annie Shockley, we went to Kelsey elementary? I mean Kelsey Middle -- BRAMAN:Middle -- TYUS:-- School. It was middle school, junior high then, that' ; s what they called it. But, yeah, I went there, and that was... That' ; s -- what year was that? I don' ; t even know what year was it. You have to -- you guys do the math. (laughs) WALKER-HARPS:Probably about ' ; 62 -- TYUS:Yeah. So I went there. WALKER-HARPS:-- on Kelsey -- TYUS:Yeah, I went there, and I think they had -- I' ; m trying to think, they had basketball for girls. Did they have track? I think they had basketball for girls and track. And that' ; s the first time like I really came into the city, living in the city because -- or not living in the city, just coming to the city, going to school. And then once our house burned down, I think that' ; s when I was in eighth grade and then that was Fairmont, I ended up at Fairmont. I was at Fairmont High School, and... Wow, so, what can I tell you about Fairmont? That' ; s where I met Ms. Kimbrough who was my track coach and basketball coach, and she was the PE teacher, and all of those then, you know? Because I used to think all the time, God, that' ; s such a tall woman. WALKER-HARPS:Mm-hmm, she was. TYUS:(laughs) You know and then also my other thought was, gosh, she was really bowlegged. And I would always say, " ; God, if you straighten her legs out, she could be pretty tall, much taller than what she is." ; But (laughter) she was a woman that... I mean she had a lot of girls that were on the -- that played basketball and ran track. I mean that -- because that was the only two sports for wom-- or for girls in high school. I don' ; t know what was going on in white schools. I don' ; t know if they had a track program or not because none of us was ever -- we were still segregated, we were not integrated at the time, so I don' ; t know if white kids had -- what kind of sports they had. CAIN:How did she identify you as somebody who would be interested in track, good in track, and at what level? You know maybe ninth grade or so on. And tell us a little bit about some of the competitions that got you noticed. TYUS:I really don' ; t know if she really identified me. There was -- you know, it was more that if you wanted to be involved in sports when you were a young girl, you could be involved, and you had to try out. And then if you could beat someone if -- yeah, or you... Depending on how many people they' ; re going to have on their team, like with the basketball team that, you know, you go out there and you play hard. You practice hard and you do -- they have tryouts, so you get -- you either make it or you don' ; t and those that make it... I can' ; t remember them saying, " ; God, you' ; ve got great potential." ; I think that happened after I went to that first summer at Tennessee State, which I was 15 or 6-- yeah, 15. BAUSKE:Tell us about that. That' ; s kind of young to be off in a college environment. TYUS:(laughs) I -- yeah, it was. I was... After, like once I was at Fairmont, they -- then I made the basketball team and I made the track team along with several other women. And there was one woman especially on the track team, Frances Dallas, and she -- she was much better than I was. She whupped me all the time, and I got beat all the time. She could really run, and so... But it didn' ; t bother me that much. I mean I was still enjoying. I was still at the state ; I just enjoy this. This is really something I like to do, and my father had passed away. Our house burned down and then my father passed away, and I was just devastated by both things, more so by my father' ; s death. And I became a person -- not that I talked a lot in the beginning, but I became a person that would -- like one-word answers, and we would not be having this interview if I had not come. (laughs) It will be yes, no, if you think so. You have to continue to ask but... You know, so at his death, I just really didn' ; t do that. My mom kept saying, " ; You know you need to do something, you need to..." ; And I think that' ; s the reason I really got started running and playing basketball and doing a lot, you know just really putting my heart into it. Not so -- I mean, I guess it' ; s my aggression, just being angry and disappointed and depressed and all those kinds of things, I just -- that was my outlet. And I think Ms. Kimbrough saw that and all of that, so... But it just -- we would have track meets arou-- in around. It' ; s like in Newnan and places like that and then the big thing, you had to -- we go to Fort Valley. At Fort Valley State College, we would go there, and they would have meets there. And it will be not just surrounding Griffin, but you had people from Atlanta, all the big -- and they would be there, but you were... Depending on how large your school is with classes, they had A, B, A, and all up there, so... Mr. Temple was there, yes, and I didn' ; t know anything about that, Mr. Temple, who he was. And he -- after the meet, he came up to me and said -- he introduced himself as the coa-- " ; I' ; m Temple, the coach at Tennessee State University." ; And he always called everybody by their last names. He said, " ; You' ; re Tyus, right?" ; I said, " ; Yes," ; and he said, " ; Well, I was looking at you, and you look like you got some potential there. And I would like to invite you to come for summer at a track camp. I put on a track camp every year, and I invite high school and schoolgirls up, and we train for a month. And if you do well and continue to do well in your books, and you do well on the track, you know when you graduate from high school, you could probably get a scholarship." ; And I was like, " ; Oh." ; He asked, " ; Would you be interested?" ; At 15, " ; Yeah." ; (laughs) That' ; s about -- that was -- now, that was my answer because I was not talking very much, " ; Yeah, I would." ; And he said, " ; Well, you' ; re going to be hearing from me. I talked to your coach, Ms. Kimbrough and --" ; I think it was Kimbrough there. Was it Kimbrough or was it Bonner? See, they crossed it in between with Susan Bonner and Ernestine Kimbrough. They crossed one because they did and I don' ; t know -- I' ; m kind of foggy on that a little bit. I probably have to think about it some more, or you guys can research it for me. WALKER-HARPS:(overlapping dialogue ; inaudible) talking about Susan. TYUS:Yeah, mm-hmm, so... So it must have been Susan Bonner I think it was because I think Ms. Kimbrough left somewhere in the begi-- in the middle of that. I don' ; t know. But anyway, Mr. Temple said that, and he said, " ; Well, you' ; ll be hearing from me," ; and I said, " ; Okay." ; And the next -- I didn' ; t think too much about that. I just went, " ; Yeah, all right." ; And I think a week or so later, my mom got a letter from him saying that he was going to come to Georgia, and he wanted to meet with her, and he' ; s (good?). And that' ; s something he did. He met with everybody' ; s -- every one, young lady that came to Tennessee State in the summer, he went and met with their parents or parent and told -- and laid out his program and said, " ; These are the -- this is what I expect of these -- my young ladies that come here." ; And he came, and he was like so strict I thought, but no more strict than what my parents were. " ; These are the things," ; he said, " ; there' ; s a right way, the wrong way, and then there' ; s my way, and if you don' ; t do it my way, you' ; re going to get sent -- I send them home." ; He said, " ; I make sure I will take care of your daughters. Yes, they will be on a college campus, but they' ; ll be well protected" ; and all of that. And you think about it, I mean, and it was... And he was like, " ; So if you allow her to come, these are the things that you would need," ; and all that, and it was like, okay. So, yeah, he says to me, " ; Well, what do you think, Tyus? You think you want to come?" ; I said, " ; I think so." ; I was just the timid type person, you know I' ; m saying? And he said, " ; Okay," ; and he says to my mom, " ; Ms. Tyus, are you willing to let her come?" ; and she said, " ; Yes." ; And when he left, then I was busy thinking, and how am I going to go? We don' ; t have any money because it was just my mom and my brothers and I, and it was like she don' ; t have any money to send me anywhere. And I can remember -- so it was like I really wanted to go. I started thinking, I' ; ll be -- okay, I' ; ll -- I' ; m going to be out of Griffin for a summer, I' ; m going to be out of the state of Georgia, (laughs) I' ; m going to be going someplace so that became very interesting to me. And after that, the school Fairmont, believe it or not, raised some money for me to go to Tennessee State the first summer. They raised $23 and some-odd cents, which was a lot of money in that day and time because now it' ; s worth -- how much is it worth now (Dave?)? DAVE:It' ; s about $190. TYUS:But in this day and time that would' ; ve been $190 there. So that paid for my bus, my train ticket to and from Griffin to Nashville. It gave me a few dollars to have in my pocket. CAIN:And you went by yourself. TYUS:I did. That was the -- I think about that to this day that here it is that they drove -- my Uncle John Henry and my mom and I think my brother Junior, we drove up to Atlanta to the train station because the train wasn' ; t here in Griffin and you didn' ; t -- they weren' ; t -- so we drove up there. They put me on the train with my little bag of food (laughs) and waved goodbye. And I rode eight hours or more to Nashville and go into the mountains, and it was like, oh my (God?), you know? And I can remember one of my mom' ; s friends telling me, " ; Now, you get on that train, and you sit there, and you sit there with pride and dignity." ; " ; Okay." ; " ; And don' ; t you talk to anybody." ; (laughter) They didn' ; t have to worry about me talking to anyone, I didn' ; t, so I didn' ; t. And I get there, and he said -- and Mr. Temple had said to my mom, " ; Well, I' ; ll be right there when she gets there," ; and he was right there. And he comes and meets me at the train station, and he has another one of the young women that' ; s on the track team there with him, and he said -- he says, " ; Ah, Tyus?" ; I said, " ; Yes, Mr. Temple?" ; because we all called him Mr. Temple. We didn' ; t call him Coach Temple because that' ; s a Southern thing. You-all respect your elders by saying mister, and that' ; s what we did. We didn' ; t call him coach. So he says, " ; Meet Rudolph," ; and that was Wilma Rudolph. Of course, I didn' ; t know that at the time because I didn' ; t know anything about track and that thing. All I knew, I just ran and he saw something. And so we go into the dormitory, and we got to meet all the other women -- young girls that were my age that were coming out for the summer and then also the young -- the women that were on the team that was in college and all of that. CAIN:How many young girls came into the camp? TYUS:That first summer, I think it was about 20 of us, but all of us didn' ; t last. (laughs) A lot of people wanted -- they went home. The practices were really hard. I always used to practice then maybe once or twice a week, and I could still win or I' ; ll get second (inaudible) defeating Frances at the meet. When Frances was at the meet, I could get second, and if she wasn' ; t at the meet, I' ; ll get first but... (laughs) But we would get there, and we had practice like 5:00 in the morning, 9:00 in the morning, and 1:00 in the afternoon. That -- it was very hard practice and now -- CAIN:At the summer camp? CAIN:In the summer camp. And you' ; re in Tennessee, you practice at 1:00 in the afternoon -- BAUSKE:It' ; s hot. Yeah, it' ; s hot. TYUS:So very hot. BAUSKE:Where was your mother, brothers, and you living in Griffin after the farmhouse burned down? TYUS:Once the farmhouse burned down, we moved to a little one-bedroom place. And my dad was -- because my dad lived about 9 months or 10 months, a year. But we all lived in a one-bedroom place over on Washington and Fourth? Was it Washington and Third? I can' ; t remember. On Washington Street. It was on Washington and -- I think it was Washington and Fourth Street, yeah. And then my -- years later, my mom -- we live now on Hill Street because my mom and brothers bought a house there. Yeah. But... So what else was -- need to say? Oh, so that was it. I mean that was going just at Fairmont and then people at Fairmont to be so generous (inaudible), you know? They raised money. It wasn' ; t you would think, oh, that' ; s not enough money, but they raised that money for me to go and -- I thought. And they evidently saw something that I didn' ; t see in myself, and they probably saw the same thing Mr. Temple saw, I don' ; t know. Or it goes back to what I had stated earlier that the teachers and the people, they really wanted you to do better. They wanted you to be more than what people thought you would -- or what they thought of blacks at the time. And they wanted you to get an education because they knew education would definitely do it for you. It will help you anyway. It will be like what Mr. Temple will always say, you know, " ; Sports will open the door, education will keep the door open," ; so... And they -- and I always was very and will always be very grateful for the fact that -- I always felt I had great teachers, and they always wanted the best for you and it' ; s -- WALKER-HARPS:Who was the principal at Fairmont when you were there? TYUS:Um, I don' ; t know. (laughs) Was it Mr. -- WALKER-HARPS:C. W. Daniels? TYUS:-- Daniels, Mr. Daniels? WALKER-HARPS:Or Mr. Tate. BAUSKE:He started but somebody else -- Mr. Tate was there. WALKER-HARPS:It' ; s probably Tate, Horace Tate. TYUS:Yeah, between the -- yeah, because it was him and then Mr. Daniels, right. BAUSKE:Mm-hmm. CAIN:Well, they must have -- since they kind of got together and raised money, and you probably were the only student who had that opportunity, you must have stuck out. TYUS:I -- when you look at it like that, yes, I did. I mean I would -- I think the stuck out came when Mr. Temple made that offer, you know, and I think once he... And then the school knew that. Ms. Bonner -- actually, I don' ; t know which one it was. I think it was Ms. Bonner that she let the school know that, hey -- Ms. Kimbrough I think it was. She let the school know that Mr. Temple was looking in here. And they knew more about the Olympics and all of that, so they knew the opportunity. And to go to a -- to go to college, I was never going to go to college. How was I going to go to college? And for him to say in his letter -- I have the letter that says that here, if you do these things and you -- eventually, you may get a scholarship. He never said you were definitely going to get it but -- you know? And then when you... After you get there and you see all the -- a lot of things that you could see, and for me, it was just so eye-opening in that, yeah, you meet these young women that were doing a whole lot of things not just running track. They were going... They had been overseas, that' ; s all you can -- like they' ; d been overseas, they had been to Germany, they had been to Russia, they had been to Italy, you know, they' ; d had gone to all these different places, and they got a totally different education here. You had book education and you -- then you' ; re able to travel around the world. I think you could -- I feel that you get a different kind of education. You learn about people, you learn about different cultures and how -- you know, and you learn to appreciate not only just yourself but also your culture, the other people' ; s cultures. And I just was amazed by what was going on with that just -- CAIN:Yeah, Tennessee State was nationally and internationally known at that time. TYUS:Right. CAIN:Wilma Rudolph was -- TYUS:And they put them on the map. CAIN:Put them on the map. TYUS:Well, you know even before her, although they didn' ; t get the credit. And still to this day, they -- I don' ; t feel that the Tigerbelles get the credit. That' ; s why I wrote a book about it. But that they went on. You know you had -- in 1956 and they had women on the Olympic team. And if they weren' ; t winning -- if they didn' ; t win, the US women didn' ; t win anything. CAIN:Yeah, and let me just -- in terms of Coach Temple being ahead of his times and being progressive, he was offering scholarships to young ladies in the ' ; 50s and ' ; 60s in athletics prior to Title - TYUS:-- IX. CAIN:-- IX, which... (laughter) You know that' ; s pretty incredible. TYUS:Yeah, well, it was. You think about that Tuskegee started out doing that for women and then that program folded and Mr. Temple' ; s program started to grow. But Tennessee State at the time I was in school is the only school in America giving any type of athletic scholarship to go to school for women -- not just black women, any woman. And at the time I was in school, it was only about -- it was only eight percent of women in the whole USA that was in college. So I' ; m like one of that eight percent, and Tennessee State, the women that were on the team, it was -- is anywhere from 10 to 15 women that were on the team. Now, you think about this as a historical black college doing this. I mean when I was in school with maybe 1300 students there, all black, and this little school did this, and he did this for women, which was not -- I mean in this day and time, women can go to any school they want and -- because -- if they' ; re in sports, have some type of athletic scholarship. Our scholarship was really work aid. It wasn' ; t really so an ath-- right out of an athletic scholarship. But it was a way to go to school and have a way to get an education. and I just would never -- I just don' ; t think we can give enough to Mr. Temple or say enough about him and for the world to know. And the world do, they know what he has done in track and field. But also they don' ; t -- the other part is what he has done for black women and black -- and not only black women but women of all color where he would always say, " ; I was Title I, I wasn' ; t Title IX, I mean I started --" ; he started the whole thing. You know he did for women that nobody else ever dreamed or thought of wanting to do, and he stuck with it, and he put like over 40 women on the Olympic -- on different Olympic teams. And out of the 40, he won 23 medals, 13 of them gold and -- you know? And he graduated all of his girls. He has a 97 percent graduation rate. And if they didn' ; t graduate from Tennessee State, they went on to graduate from another school, which is saying a lot. Because he believed in all, that we all had to have the education because that' ; s the only way you' ; re going to make it. CAIN:I' ; m curious -- (coughs) excuse me. I' ; m curious about the young lady you said who beat you. TYUS:Mm-hmm. BAUSKE:Yes, I was wondering, what happened to Frances? CAIN:Yeah, because he -- she should' ; ve been identified too maybe as somebody who had a lot of potential as -- TYUS:Yeah, but may-- I' ; m trying to think if she ran the day that Mr. Temple was at Fort Valley if she was -- if she even went to the meet because it' ; s not like practices now where you have to go to all these meets. But when we -- like surrounding meets around here, and we had time trials and stuff like that, Frances always beating me and -- yeah, so you know... I -- you also have -- the person I think has to want to do it and want to be. And I wouldn' ; t have ever continued to do it if Mr. Temple had not seen me and said, " ; Hey, you have the potential." ; Because to this day, I just don' ; t understand how he could see me and say it was me. How could it be me? It could' ; ve been Frances. It could' ; ve been someone else, but he chose me. I don' ; t know how that happened, but it was -- and then -- and not only that, there were a lot of other young women from Atlanta that went to that same program that I went to. So he was looking at a lot of people not -- I don' ; t know. And I -- and when I think about it at this point in time, I can' ; t remember her being there. She may have been there, but she may not. I just can' ; t remember that. But she could have, but he didn' ; t see that. WALKER-HARPS:At that time at Fairmont, the focus was on boys and gir-- boys and baseball and basketball if I remember correctly. I' ; m trying to think of others, and maybe you can, who were competitors with you in -- on the sports. We have beaucoups of trophies from that period of time at Fairmont going to early ' ; 60s. I don' ; t remember who they were by name, but there were a lot of them. We were -- we produced a whole bunch of athletes from Fairmont during the early -- well, from the beginning of the school up until the early ' ; 60s. TYUS:Yeah, well -- WALKER-HARPS:But I' ; m not sure. I don' ; t remember... Well, this was Rayfield Wright' ; s period of time or -- I don' ; t remember who. At my age, I don' ; t remember who those were who were competing with the... But I do remember that we received a lot of trophies. TYUS:Mm-hmm. Well, yeah, the -- I mean Fairmont was known for their -- with like the men' ; s basketball team and then the men' ; s football team. But they had a good women' ; s basketball team, but you never heard about it. Like I stated earlier, women were never encouraged to do that. Women were never encouraged to go out and be good. I think about relatives and friends saying that, you know, " ; You can go out and play but don' ; t sweat, horses and cows sweat, things like that. Girls, you' ; re just not supposed to do all these things, and you' ; re not supposed to be good. You' ; re supposed to -- well, girls and women are supposed to be good cooking, good cleaning the house, good --" ; you know? None of the things that I wanted to do, but I know how to do them because I was taught that. That was something we were all taught and not just me. My brothers could clean house better than I can, so... (laughs) So in my family, that' ; s what we -- it was all equal in that sense. It was not what society was saying because my parents wanted us to all -- we all needed to know. These are key things for all of -- for you to survive, you know? You need to know how to cook because you may not find someone that' ; s going to cook for you. You may not want -- you may not get married, so what are you going to do? (Usually, it' ; s...?) You know it was not so much at the time we were growing up ; you weren' ; t going to no restaurants and eating. WALKER-HARPS:Right. TYUS:And so there was not that. I mean there was -- unless you were in a black community, in our black community. I don' ; t -- like I said, I don' ; t know very much about the inner city of Griffin because we lived on a dairy farm. We raised our own food. We had corn, and there were pear trees, there were fig trees, there were all kind of -- we had all kinds of vegetable. Ben Brown had a pond, he had dug a pond, we had fish, we go fishing all the time, and we also raised hogs. So it' ; s like we were pretty much self-sufficient when -- and we didn' ; t really have to come into the city to buy things. My mom worked here in the inner city. CAIN:Something had to be infused in you because you went from being on a dairy farm, okay, to come into Griffin had to be a little bit of a culture shock, to go into Tennessee State had to be a little bit of a culture shock to doing things internationally. And you had to have something in you, something that people put in you or that was just in you innately to allow you to function and survive and say, " ; I' ; m not going to give up those kinds of things." ; Can you talk about that? TYUS:Well, I think the -- what was in me is what my parents raised me, how they raised me and raised me and my brothers. I mean they raised us about -- taught us values and what was valuable to you and what was valuable to me and to them. And as I see, it was family and also not only being just family but being -- treating people right, treating people fairly, you know? That was always -- you know, they didn' ; t sit there and talk about it like that. It' ; s like if you were in an argument or I was fighting with my brothers, which we did a lot, you know, " ; What? Why? You-all can talk that out." ; Well, sometimes you could, and you just had to fight, but still, after the fight was over, you' ; re still brothers and sisters, and you don' ; t treat people mean. You don' ; t be mean to people in that. And it was more -- there' ; s enough of that in the world. Yeah, and it to me, it was just more common sense kind of things, and that' ; s the common sense in my family, not to say that was with everybody' ; s family. WALKER-HARPS:And it sounds like there was inner strength in your parents and perhaps in their parents. Because even living in the -- under the conditions, which they lived, they were never submissive. They were always strong and strong-willed, and that transferred to you-all. And that' ; s not an -- (in here?), that' ; s not an everyday thing especially during that period of time. TYUS:No, it' ; s not, and I think that, you know, still going back to the fact that they always wanted better. They wanted more for their children, and in order and do that, they felt they could sacrifice. And if they did all the hard work and we went to school and got an education, then we could do it for our kids, and you just keep passing it on. It' ; s like you' ; re going to call to it a tradition or whatever and just... I mean I was always strong-willed. It goes back to the whole cowboy outfit. You know I would -- (laughs) and I don' ; t know, I can' ; t -- I think both of my parents were strong-willed. My mom was a person that talked a lot more than the -- and my dad was not. He was a very quiet man and would say very few words but the words he did speak -- but he talked a lot to his kids. He didn' ; t talk a lot to other people, yeah, but -- you know? And he -- and the whole fact of going out and walking in the woods, and he saying to us, " ; This is what we call -- this is being free," ; and those kinds of things. And then the fact that we would go and stay with his pa-- his grand-- my grandmother, my dad' ; s mom. In the summer, we would stay a whole week, my brother and I because my dad -- we would stay a week, but my dad came every day to see us because he didn' ; t like us to be away from home. (laughs) He didn' ; t want us out of his eyesight and stuff like that but -- and in Jackson, Georgia. And my -- they picked cotton, but we weren' ; t allowed to pick cotton. So we were there, but we couldn' ; t pick cotton, so we had to do our -- we had to do all the preparation before everybody that went to pick cotton, so we had to get up and cook -- help cook breakfast. We had to do all the chores, we had to cook -- have lunch ready when they came back from the field, we had to have dinner ready. We had to do all of that, but we could never work the fields. Yeah. WALKER-HARPS:Which means that there had to have been an understanding between the Browns and your family for you-all to have been the allowed that freedom, that choice. TYUS:Yeah, oh, that they -- oh, the Browns knew that we weren' ; t -- we' ; re never allowed to milk cows and things like that. We were taught ; my dad taught us how to milk a cow and all of that. I always tell people that when I was five years old and going to the dairy in the morning once my brothers got on the bus and go to... Because the dairy was all -- a hundred yards away, (laughs) so I would go to the dairy when my dad is finished up milking the cows and stuff and the best thing. And I always wanted to help him and do all that. He goes, " ; No, this is not your job, this is my job." ; And I -- and he would always let me hose down the cow poop. I always, " ; Oh, this is --" ; because you could play in the water, you' ; re doing all that, and that was so much fun, but -- you know? But that' ; s about as much as we could do. We didn' ; t have to do anything else. (laughs) BAUSKE:When you went to college -- the first Olympic was what year of your college? TYUS:Nineteen sixty-four. I entered college in ' ; 63. BAUSKE:And so you were a sophomore TYUS:Yes. BAUSKE:And then the second Olympics was when you had graduated, the year? TYUS:Yeah. I went and graduated -- it took me five... I went to -- I graduated in ' ; 68, August of ' ; 68. BAUSKE:So you were -- and then after you graduated, what' ; d you do? TYUS:I came to Griffin and said goodbye and went to Los Angeles, California. (laughter) BAUSKE:The great diaspora. TYUS:I moved to LA when I -- I think I was 15, maybe 16, I can' ; t remember. We had outdoor championships for track and field in Los Angeles. And that' ; s the first time I' ; ve been on a plane, the first time, and seeing big California and, oh, gosh, and I just thought it was so beautiful and so big and it' ; s so clean. The streets are so wide and the palm trees. I just -- I -- " ; This is where I want to live." ; I said it then, and that' ; s what happened. I moved to California and lived there and worked -- started out working as a teacher in -- a PE teacher in middle school, in junior high, whew. I did that for a year, and that was, right, the end of that. (laughter) And, yeah, I' ; ve been there ever since, and I' ; ve had several different jobs. You know although I won three gold medals and been in the Olympics and set world records, there was no -- nobody giving me -- BAUSKE:Sponsorships -- TYUS:-- endorsements. That was not happening for black people and black women especially. They -- black women wouldn' ; t -- that was not going to be so that -- so that I never got any of those kinds of thing. But it was -- you know, I still had to live. I had to work, so I -- and so I had a lot of different kinds of job. I know I worked with ABC, I mean, in -- for the Olympics in Montreal. I did... Oh, my gosh, I can' ; t think of all those, but I' ; ve had several different jobs, and I retired about nine years ago. And before that, I worked in outdoor education with the LA school district. And what that was about is that they would bring fourth graders and fifth graders to a camp, and they would stay for a week. And we taught them the natural sciences, and we did it through -- everything was outdoors except sleeping. (laughs) And we hiked and we had... It was in the mountains. It was not that far from LA. It was only about a 40-minute drive to get to the mountains and where it was but... And we had creeks and streams, and they had different things, animals and frogs and things you could catch. Well, you catch them but it was more we taught them that they' ; re here, but we don' ; t kill them, we don' ; t ta-- you know we are looking to observe. So you -- this is nature, this is how nature is supposed to be, and we need to learn to take care of this planet or the planet is not going to take care of us. Yeah. So that -- I did that for 17 years. CAIN:Can I back to TSU? TYUS:Sure. CAIN:Talk about that college experience with Mr. Temple and the other ladies that you had around you. As Ellen indicated, during that period of time, you went to two Olympics. TYUS:Mm-hmm. CAIN:And I' ; m sure within that period of time, there were other meets and other activities going on. Just -- if you could just give us a brief -- an overview of that experience. TYUS:Well, my first -- my freshman year at Tennessee State was not the best year. My first quarter there, it was not. I was -- it was just mind-blowing for me, I mean, just and I -- going to practice and going to school and going... I made one -- the biggest mistake is taking a class after practice, which is at six o' ; clock in the evening, and you practiced. And it was literature, and I knew very little. And it' ; s very difficult to stay awake or to be concentra-- to be really focused on talking about Chaucer and The Canterbury Tales and all. Okay, so... (laughter) So I mean, and so I can remember Mr. Temple when he got my grades, he called me in, and he said, " ; Uh, you' ; re not going to be able to stay here with these grades. This is not acceptable." ; And he said, " ; You' ; re going to--" ; his favorite thing that I (remember?), " ; I' ; ll send you home, I' ; m going to send you home with that comic book and apple." ; And people are, " ; Oh, what that was all about with the comic book and apple?" ; Well, the apple was so you have something to eat, so you wouldn' ; t be hungry on your way home. And the comic book was so you have something to read, so your education can continue. (laughter) So he, " ; This is just not going to work. I just don' ; t --" ; I said, " ; I went to class, I' ; d go to cla-- I don' ; t know." ; " ; You can' ; t just go to class. You need to talk in class. I know you' ; re sitting there not --" ; because I was still in that non-- you know, those very few words. " ; And you have to talk in class, you need to do all that." ; I said, " ; Oh," ; and I said, " ; Well, you know, I got that, I can do better, I know I can do better," ; and he says, " ; Well, you' ; re going to have one more chance to do it better, you will have to make some real good grades." ; I said, " ; Okay," ; and I did. I mean that kind of broke the ice, and I realized, okay. And learned how -- now with the help also of the Tigerbelles there, the older women and how to set goals and how to reach them, how to study and how to go to the library and how to ask questions and when you don' ; t know the answer, you know? And you know I would -- I never felt like -- I always felt I could ask the question ; I just never wanted to. I just didn' ; t -- I mean I don' ; t know. I was -- like I said, I was -- even at that time, I was still suffering, I think, when I look back at it from my father' ; s death. I just -- it would -- it really took a toll on me, and I didn' ; t talk to anybody about it because then there was no going to no psychiatrist or anything. You' ; ve got to work that on out of your -- you know? Because we dint have the money so... And even if we did, I don' ; t know if I would' ; ve gone because I don' ; t talk anyway, so... But I think through the whole running and just being around other women, young ladies like myself that had had things happened to them, and they' ; ve gone. And the fact that, hey, here you are, you have an opportunity to get an education, and all you had to do is run and study, you should be able to do this, and that was it. And I still do it now. I' ; m a person that a lot stuff goes on in my head. I talk to myself in my head and say, you know, you should be able to do this. I said, " ; How could you not do this? You could do -- if you can go out there and run and practice and do all these things, you should be able to do these things." ; That' ; s going on. And with the help of that and Mr. Temple and also being exposed to so much more, being exposed to the world when there was travel, being able to be on a plane, being able to go to another country to hear another language and try to pick up words from that, those kinds of -- you know that -- BRAMAN:When was your first international trip? TYUS:My first trip was to Russia, yeah. My first trip was to, oh -- was it Moscow? F:Yeah. TYUS:Yeah, Moscow. BRAMAN:And how old were you? TYUS:I was 18. Mm-hmm, yeah. So that was my first trip. And so it was just called a growth period, I mean, right? And I still say I' ; m still growing. I mean I learned -- I -- that' ; s -- if nothing else, I say to young people, " ; That' ; s something you have to do. You have to go through -- you need to learn from our own experience, you know just... And try to figure out what it -- not so much what it is you want to do but to understand your surroundings, understand what' ; s going on in the world." ; And Mr. Temple would always say to us that " ; It doesn' ; t -- you go out there and you win all these medals and -- or you get all these accolades and all that, but you still need to be able to communicate with people because you never know who you' ; re going to be sitting next to. And you need to have a conversation other than sports. You need to be able to be aware of where -- what things are, what' ; s happening in the world, what' ; s happening in your country, what' ; s happening at your school, what happ-- be able to talk, be able to converse." ; And he said, " ; And, Tyus, you need to be able to do that with more than four or five words," ; so... (laughter) So I had to learn to do those things, and I think it started my freshman -- after my first quarter at Tennessee State, I started, but it was a slow process. I' ; m just getting to where I am now. (laughs) CAIN:During that period of time, it was a period of unrest in the country. TYUS:Mm-hmm. CAIN:You have mentioned earlier about civil rights here in Griffin, but it was happening all over the country. You went to ' ; 68, and that was a big -- that was probably the best Olympic team in history, okay, in my opinion. That -- it was an awesome Olympic team. But it also had people like John Carlos and Tommie Jones -- BAUSKE:Tommie Smith. CAIN:Tommie Smith, excuse me, Tommie Smith who gave the Black Power' ; s fist, and there were a lot of stuff going on probably behind the scenes at that time. Talk about that, talk about your -- if you were involved in any kind of way, talk about any involvement in local civil rights politics. TYUS:Yeah. Well, I was down there and involved (inaudible) any local in Griffin or anything like that. I know my mom was part of the -- WALKER-HARPS:Yeah. She was a strong supporter. TYUS:Yeah, so -- WALKER-HARPS:I think Marie -- TYUS:-- (overlapping dialogue ; inaudible) WALKER-HARPS:-- Marie Tyus well -- did well as she could. TYUS:See, I just know that she was relating with the NAACP and worked really hard with that, I know, but I was away at school, so... And I was at Tennessee State, and I -- you know Mr. Temple would always -- he was always trying to prepare us and have us know what was going on. He said, " ; Now, you' ; re going to go -- you go to the Olympics or you go, what, out of the country, and you will see that people in other countries definitely appreciate you more than you' ; ll be appreciated when you go back home. And you go to the Olympics, you' ; re winning medals or whatever, you come back, and then you' ; re still going to be a second-class citizen. But that' ; s something that should never let you down. You also, so, have to fight for your rights still, have to know what -- you need to be aware. That' ; s where the education come in, so when you get out to talk about it, you could talk on it intelligently and express your way -- express how you feel and what' ; s going on." ; So it was a lot of -- you know? And you also had the older Tigerbelles who had experienced a lot of that and had gone to a lot of things. And there' ; s nothing like being on a trip going South, further South in -- from Nashville and having to go to the bathroom, and you can' ; t. So we had to pull alongside the road and run into the bushes. And so we... And then that was experienced by us and it -- that was a sign of the -- that' ; s what was going on at the time. It doesn' ; t mean that that should have been, but that' ; s what was going on. Sixty-- in ' ; 64 in the Olympics, going to Tokyo, the USA team were there, and when you go, they send your equipment like starting blocks for us. We had starting blocks, so they sent -- the USA team sent us, and they sent starting blocks for the team. We get to Tokyo and the male coach -- oh, the ' ; 64 team, Mr. Temple was our coach for the women -- would not let us use -- the women use the starting blocks. And Mr. Temple is like, " ; What are you talking about, we can' ; t use the start--? These blocks are for us. They' ; re for Americans. We are Americans, what do you mean?" ; " ; Nope, you can' ; t use them. Your girls can' ; t use the starting block." ; Now, what kind of craziness is that? Here it is, the USA team, we' ; re all -- USA is on your chest and everything, and we' ; re running for the USA. When they start counting the medals, the me-- our medals going to really co-- you know, they' ; re going to count our medals as part of U-- But he said we couldn' ; t use the blocks. And then, we go to practice one morning, and he' ; s arguing with this coach. Look at me, he' ; s like he didn' ; t -- couldn' ; t understand. We had to, " ; Well, you can use the Japanese starting blocks." ; And Bob Hayes was there, and he saw Mr. Temple and he then went up and asked him, " ; Well, what' ; s going on?" ; And he told him, and he said, " ; Oh, crazy man, they can use my blocks any time. They' ; re not my blocks ; they could -- they should just use them. What kind of craziness is this?" ; So that was the kind of stuff we had. And you say was there racism, was there sexism? I say both -- (laughs) BAUSKE:Yeah, both. TYUS:-- intertwined, you know? So those are the kind of -- those -- that was one experience and then you -- that was like ' ; 64. Sixty-eight, there was a whole lot of unrest going on in the world. It was not just in the US, you know? And then -- but when I was talking about going to the Olympic games and all on this -- the whole thing about South Africa, so athletes were... Well, it started out in San Jose with Tommie and Carlos with the whole not going to the games and protests for unfair -- on the unfair treatment of humans all over the world not just black people. It was all, you know it was human rights, it was the human rights project and... But we decided to go to the games and then when we get to the games, no one could decide on what, if anything, we were going to do as far as the protest is concerned. And after having meeting after meeting, it got to, okay, we don' ; t know and then you can do whatever you want to do. That' ; s what it came down to. I chose to wear black shorts and then Carlos and Tommie did their -- because I ran the hundred before they ran that 200 in that. So that was my protest to, what, all the -- what was going on in not just America but all over. And also, when we went to Mexico City, the slaughter of the students there, so... And then, when Tommie and Carlos did their big fist raising, what they did, it was so powerful, there was really not too much for anybody else to do. It said a lot, it said a lot to what was going on, and it did. And even to this day, here we are over 50 years later, and it' ; s more powerful now than it was then because... And they are looked upon now as legends and all those things and then they were kicking them out the village, trying to kick them out of the -- out of Mexico, which they couldn' ; t, you know, want to take their medals, which they couldn' ; t. (laughs) But these -- this is all the propaganda that was going on at the time saying -- to try to tell people, " ; Oh, they -- you can' ; t do this, you can' ; t, this is not the place to do it. You could --" ; you know? It is the place to do it. It was something that the world could hear and see. And now, so the Mexico Olympics was the first time it was ever televised live, so it was -- everybody got to see what was going on. It was not like we can chop this up and present it the way we want it. So I have always been an advocate for human rights, and I really have been for the -- with women' ; s rights. I mean I grew up with not having any, being told that muscles are ugly on women and no man is going to want you because who wants someone with muscle or who wants a woman that can beat them at something? (laughter) I would say that and -- but because of my parents and my brothers is that that never fazed me. I still want to be the best. I still wanted to do whatever I needed to do. And I just think that you think about what Mr. Temple has done with the Tigerbelles and if we weren' ; t black women, how well would that be celebrated now? What would come -- you know everybody would know about it. I mentioned very briefly that I wrote a book, and it' ; s called Tigerbelle: The Wyomia Tyus Story, and it' ; s talking about what the Tigerbelles had done, what those women had done and how they changed the world, but nobody has gotten credit. And Mr. Temple -- and what Mr. Temple has done and not truly gotten the credit that he deserved -- he' ; s dead and gone. He used to say all the time, " ; I want my roses while I' ; m alive," ; and that was one reason I started writing my book, but he died before I could even finish because I told him I was going to write a book. He would say, " ; Oh, Tyus, I can' ; t believe you are going to write a book. You don' ; t say no more than five words." ; (laughter) But I did that, so I wrote the book to get that publicized. CAIN:You know, that ought... And I guess -- TYUS:Did you want -- did you want to say something? BRAMAN:Well, could I have a (inaudible)? CAIN:Yeah, sure. BRAMAN:You had been (inaudible). But what I wanted to do -- did you tell me about the girls from Texas? TYUS:Oh, no, I need to tell them that too. BRAMAN:That' ; s only -- that' ; s fine. I just wanted to talk about the girls from Texas. Go ahead, (inaudible). TYUS:Okay. The gi-- well, in nine-- what was it -- ' ; 60-- BRAMAN:Sixty-four? TYUS:Sixty-four, yeah, thank you. (laughs) In 1964, going to the Olympics, but there was a track team out of Texas, all white girls and the coach was... She had coached the Russian team when I went the first time in ' ; 63. Now, they were called the Texas Bouffants. And they had all -- (laughs) they had all this big hair and all of this and -- oh, and they just said, oh, they were going to go to the Olympics, and they were going to win. Now, we have ran -- we ran against -- we ran against them in meets, and they never broke a tape. They only felt the tape once we broke it, and they were so far back, they cut them or whatever. But they got put on Sports Illustrated cover. They have never put -- yeah -- BAUSKE:The Bouffants. TYUS:But they' ; ve never put a black woman on Sports Illustrated at that time on that cover. And we -- and this is -- Wilma Rudolph had won three gold medals, the first person to ever do that, and she had never been put on the cover of Sports Illustrated. But here' ; s a man that put over 40 women on the team -- on different Olympic teams and won 23 medals, more than a lot of countries, you know, and never been put on it. And -- but they were talking about -- and in the interview, in the, oh, article, they are saying, " ; Well, Wyomia Tyus ran a -- say, 11.5 seconds in a hundred meters and such and such has run a 11.4." ; (Was she saying?) race with her? (laughs) But it was all the play -- but they never talked to us. They -- all the article was about them. And so that' ; s another sign of -- what -- how racist and didn' ; t care so much about what we as bla-- all they want to do count our medals and did that very proudly. But when we come back home, there was nothing like that. Same thing in -- another example was the fact that we were in it and we came back from the Olympics in ' ; 64 and then we came back, and Edith my best friend, she -- well, they had to... Edith went to Tennessee State, and she is from, what, Atlanta, and she went to Archer High School. And they picked her to win three gold medals like Wilma had done in ' ; 60-- in 1960, but I beat Edith in the hundred meters. I never beat Edith before, but I did that day in the hundred meters. And we come back to Georgia, they give us a parade in Atlanta, and it' ; s only in the black section the day we went to Atlanta. It' ; s only in the black section. CAIN:So it was a parade through black Atlanta? TYUS:Mm-hmm, like Auburn and down -- CAIN:(Auburn Street)? TYUS:Mm-hmm, right down the street, but they didn' ; t take us nowhere else. They took us, and that was it. It was like... It' ; s over. But they had all -- my mom and Edith' ; s mom was there, we had our family there. But we only went into the black neighborhood, within the black (inaudible). WALKER-HARPS:What about when you had the parade here, was that a regular parade or route? I don' ; t remember. TYUS:Yeah, yeah, the parade here? Oh, yeah. There were not too many places you' ; d go in Griffin. (laughter) But, yeah, the parade was downtown and all that, yes. But, yeah, so it was... But, again, it comes from like what Mr. Temple and what he was saying, you know, that, " ; You are doing this, so you want to get an education and you..." ; And he had then taught us well, you know that no matter how well you do it (inaudible), and that' ; s not what you -- you know you are doing it because you like it, you' ; re doing it because you get -- you want the education. That -- you know? CAIN:The fact is the Tigerbelles and Coach Temple and TSU and that program at the time were no less than the kinds of -- did no less than the kind of things that Jackie Robinson did. Because it was -- they were doing it for women, and they were doing it for African American women, and it was a forefront kind of program. TYUS:Yes. You would think that even in this day and time still, and you know like there' ; s so many... I mean I don' ; t really talk about it because there' ; s so many things I just think that they should' ; ve done or could' ; ve done or could' ; ve honored in the way of honoring Mr. Temple, but it did not happen. Because you think about -- you could not name, what, football coach, basketball coach, baseball coach, any coach that has done and accomplished as much as he has and in the graduation rate and in -- CAIN:Forty Olympians you said. TYUS:Yes, 40 Olympians, any -- any -- well since but as in -- you know? And I will always believe this because we were women and black because those two are together -- BAUSKE:Deadly combination, yeah. TYUS:Yeah. And you say, well, which is which? Well, it depends on who' ; s looking at you. They look at you because you' ; re black or they look at you because you' ; re a woman, right? But they both... You' ; re looking at it at the same -- that' ; s the same, and so... If -- BAUSKE:The Bouffants are killing me. (laughter) I mean if it' ; s any comfort, I' ; ve heard of you many times, I' ; d never heard of the Bouffants before. (laughter) Just -- TYUS:Well, you better not let that be the end. (laughs) No, but I just could not... Mr. Temple couldn' ; t believe it, we couldn' ; t believe it, but here it is. It was Olympic year is ' ; 64. Those gi-- I don' ; t even know if they came to the trial, the Olympic Trials because in the Olympic Trials, you have to place one, two, or three to get on the Olympic team. And not only that, you have to hit a certain standard. Say like for the (inaudible), they -- you have to run a certain time in order to be in it, you know be there. Because there sometimes, like they take the last -- I think what they -- I don' ; t know if they still do it -- whatever, the eighth place person in the hundred in the last Olympics, whatever their time was, you have to meet that time before you go to the Olympic Trials. Anyhow, so I don' ; t even -- I can' ; t... When I think of the Olympic Trials in ' ; 64, I don' ; t remember ever -- I didn' ; t remember seeing a white person, a white girl in that race. There could' ; ve been but I don' ; t see behind me so... (laughter) WALKER-HARPS:At the time, you won the your medals, how were you received in Griffin as your home particularly by -- I know we were receptive, but were you received totally by the white community? TYUS:Well -- WALKER-HARPS:Do you remember? TYUS:-- I don' ; t really truly remember but I... When I think about ' ; 64 and I came back to Griffin, they did give me a parade and all of that, the city of Griffin or the county, what, or both did that. And I think after the parade, I went to Fairmont, and they had a banquet -- a little get-together there at Fairmont. That was in ' ; 64. Sixty-eight, I -- they -- there was a parade and all of that too, but it' ; s -- they were... You know so -- been so long ago. I always felt very welcomed by the people, said people here in Griffin and in Spalding County. They always -- I mean for them to build a park for -- and name it in my honor, I -- that to me is welcoming. I mean I can remember when they... That was ' ; 96 so that' ; s 1996 that they -- that... And then I can' ; t say who it was, because I don' ; t remember, saying to me, " ; We didn' ; t do really great by you after the ' ; 64, ' ; 68 Olympics, but we all hope that this really makes up for what --" ; and then to me, that' ; s something to be said, and that wasn' ; t a black person speaking, so... And it' ; s like -- F:That' ; s -- TYUS:-- that' ; s more than -- you know that' ; s something to be said. And just the fact that they would name a park after me, 168 acres, and I' ; m still living, so... I mean I -- you know? And it was great because Mr. Temple was still alive, and he came here for the dedication and so it' ; s -- it was like... I mean to me, the people in Griffin have already -- they di-- it was the times and stuff, but as time went on, for them to say, " ; Hey, look, this is what we think of you." ; WALKER-HARPS:And is there a message that you' ; d like to leave for young people today? Is there anything special you would like to say to the youngsters coming up today that might make an impact that you would hope would make an impact on them? TYUS:Well, the message would be education, number one. And I don' ; t think everybody has to go to school. I don' ; t believe everybody have to go to a college or a university. Education, just make sure you' ; re educating yourself in about what' ; s going on in the world and where -- what are the issues are in the world, and that you could be able to speak on anything that you would like to speak on. And that -- just the fact that there' ; s -- people have -- we stand on so many shoulders. WALKER-HARPS:Shoulders. TYUS:And that' ; s how I look when I think of the Tigerbelle. I stand on so many shoulders. They' ; ve done so many things, and they made a lot more sacrifices. And I look at my parents, and I would always want to be standing so strong for them because I know how much they sacrificed for me. And then for young people in this day and time, you -- there are always going to be obstacles in life, and there' ; s no way of getting around it and there' ; s always... And you just have to be able to be strong and be positive. And sometimes when you work as hard as you work, it doesn' ; t come out the way you want it to come out, but that doesn' ; t mean you stop, and that doesn' ; t mean you give up. That just means you just continue and you continue, and hopefully, you could... It' ; s like, I guess, a tumbleweed or something growing bigger and get people more involved. And just being more expressive and learn ways to talk to each other and talk to people. And I think that' ; s the most key, that we need to know how to talk to each other. Just because we' ; re of a different race or a different view, a different ethnicity, a different culture, that doesn' ; t have to be put down. We need to be -- and when I say we, I' ; m talking about the world. I' ; m not just only talking about here in Griffin and... Because we all -- in order for this world to continue to grow and be a better place, because it' ; s definitely -- my dad said it was going to change, and I see a lot of change from what he said to now, but we still need a lot more. And that we -- yeah, the fight, you can' ; t give up the fight. You always have to stay in the fight, right? I mean that' ; s the big thing, you know? You always have to stay in the fight. WALKER-HARPS:Okay. Anything else ladies, gentlemen? BAUSKE:A quick question, your brothers, did they get to college? TYUS:No. Just me, I' ; m the only one to go, yes. Mm-hmm. BAUSKE:But your nieces and nephews have gone, right? TYUS:Oh, yeah, yeah. I mean like I said, things change. I was the only one to go from my family and then my -- and my kids had gone. My grandkids, I' ; ve got two grandkids in school -- going to schools I would have never... I mean I have a grandson that' ; s at UCLA, and I have a daughter at Cal State Seaside and they... And you know what you have -- you know? I just see the changes. And I was the first to go and then it' ; s just been going from then on. WALKER-HARPS:And your niece (Terry?) is an anchor lady at WS -- is it (WSV?) in Savannah? And that' ; s South Georgia, and that would not have been when I came in ' ; 61. Nineteen sixty-one, it would not have been anything dreamed about, and to think that she is one of those black women who graces the evening news -- TYUS:Yeah, she' ; s the anchor -- WALKER-HARPS:-- and the radio station. TYUS:-- for them, mm-hmm. And Tina went to Tennessee State. She went out -- she tried out for the track team. I kept telling her don' ; t, but she did. (laughs) WALKER-HARPS:Okay. TYUS:Because I mean it' ; s -- to me and Coach Temple, it is a -- that was -- it' ; s hard because he was in there and -- M:He was a (overlapping dialogue ; inaudible) TYUS:-- a no-nonsense and is like it' ; s my way, highway, if you don' ; t come my way, you have to be at the highway type thing. And to me, it was kind of like my parents in a sense, but he was -- but he always wanted the best. And you have to have a certain temperament to be -- you had to have one to be under him. And for me, it worked perfect because I will not say anything to him anyway, and he was not -- and the stuff he said to me, it was kind of like if I didn' ; t want to hear, it' ; s like -- it was like the duck with the wet deal, would just roll right off my back, so to speak. But I always felt that he has some of those strict rules and he has some things that he could' ; ve changed, but it wouldn' ; t have been him, and he didn' ; t, and that' ; s not -- you know? Like, you know, you -- he made you... I' ; d like to say he made you tough. He made you know that, hey, this world is not going to be kind and all to you. You need to be prepared for everything, mentally, physically, all of that, education. And for us, the education was it. That' ; s what it was. And still it is, but I think with all the new things that young people can get involved in, and they can learn trades and they could -- and with technology, with technology, you don' ; t always have to go to school. Some people just have that techie mind and -- (laughs) but you have to stick with it. It' ; s not -- you know? You would like for it to be real easy, but it' ; s not. Sometimes when things come easy for you, you don' ; t -- it doesn' ; t work out. CAIN:One last -- WALKER-HARPS:And I know -- CAIN:-- question I have -- WALKER-HARPS:-- we have kept you longer than I said. Do we have enough time, do you have enough time to (inaudible)? No, okay, all right, your last question. CAIN:I was just... You left in ' ; 63 to go to TSU. You come back today, it' ; s -- to Griffin, what do you think about the change in Griffin from then into now? TYUS:Well, you know, my... It' ; s a big change because it' ; s -- I look at Griffin, and I come back, and I mean I' ; m in a store and people say, " ; Oh, you Wyomia Tyus? You' ; re the one at the park over there? Is that their park, they named a park?" ; And then to think that when I was six years old, I couldn' ; t go in -- couldn' ; t even go into a white school, I couldn' ; t go. I had to be on a bus for an hour to go to my -- to go to an all-black school, and just that it' ; s a growth. I see a lot of growth here and I -- you know? And the fact that... I mean I' ; m just a lot of times still shocked and surprised by the fact that -- not just in Griffin but all over that they think I have something. You know what I have to say or what I have been through could help someone or encourage other people to do it. I mean to me that' ; s just -- it' ; s mind-blowing a lot of times that... I mean I was just do-- I just did what I liked doing, and I was one of the few that got chosen. I mean, all of us have those talents. Like I tell young kids all the time, everybody got a gold medal in them. You may not get to go to the Olympics, or the national anthem maybe not be played for you, but you have a gold medal inside of you, and you could make that gold medal work the way you want it to work. And just that Griffin has grown tremendously. And if you live here -- I don' ; t know if (inaudible) people lived, but you live here, you see the growth. And I know people say, " ; It could grow more." ; Of course, so can the world, so... But as I' ; ve said before, Griffin, a double honor naming the Wyomia Tyus Park is just I' ; m -- it' ; s -- I' ; m always speechless, so... How do you -- I had to say thank you, appreciate it, and this is great, and it gives other young kids an opportunity to see what could happen to them. CAIN:Knowing Griffin, there probably was some politics that went on to make that happen. And so I don' ; t know what that was. Jewel might know but -- BAUSKE:She knows, look at her face. (laughter) WALKER-HARPS:Oh. Right -- CAIN:To get that through, well deserved not saying that -- but somebody had to initiate it some place, and it had to get voted on some place I would guess. TYUS:It did, that' ; s true. And then I don' ; t know all the politics, but anything we do, anything that' ; s -- well there' ; s going to be a park after me -- named after me or anything, (look at the?) -- oh well, we won' ; t go to that -- what' ; s going on. But just look at what' ; s going on in the world, you know? Politics is -- there' ; s like a good example like when they were talking about not going to the Olympics, and they said, " ; Well, you shouldn' ; t bring politics into like -- in something -- into the Olympics. The Olympics is for this--" ; well, politics is they always count medals. The US is the first one when if you don' ; t have a medal, you -- and if they' ; re getting beat and stuff like that. Look at what happened in -- what year was it that the USA team, basketball team lost the gold medal? BRAMAN:It was in Munich. CAIN:Was it John Thompson. BRAMAN:No, it was in Munich -- CAIN:Oh -- TYUS:Munich. CAIN:-- you know in ' ; 72. TYUS:Yeah, they lost -- BRAMAN:So ' ; 72? CAIN:Mm-hmm -- TYUS:Mm-hmm. Se-- CAIN:-- seventy-two. TYUS:No, se-- okay. They lost the gold medal in the basketball team. And guess what, they came back here and they (started letting?) pros play basketball. So politics is everywhere, and it' ; s not going to go anywhere. I mean from this -- yeah, this country, world was built on politics and all of that, you know? And there are good people in politics somewhere, you know? WALKER-HARPS:Mm-hmm. TYUS:You know and then -- WALKER-HARPS:I have not -- BRAMAN:You have your own Jimmy Carter that canceled the whole ' ; 80 game. CAIN:Yeah -- BRAMAN:Yeah, the ' ; 80 game. BAUSKE:-- in Mar-- yeah, look at that. TYUS:Mm-hmm. Sure. And so there' ; s always going to be politics and the cold war and all, you name it, there' ; s going to be stuff going on. And as long as there' ; s somebody out there who knows that there are some rights that we can do. And I' ; m just -- like I said, I' ; ve been grateful that that fact that they did the whole park and named it after me. And it gives the people of Griffin, people of color to look at this in Griffin and say, " ; Wow, see that can happen to her, certain things can happen for me." ; WALKER-HARPS:I hope that that was stressed -- that' ; s -- was stressed by in the schools. We did not have an opportunity -- you did not have an opportunity to get into our schools as we would like to have had. However, I' ; m hoping that and I had thought about it until we started talking about it a minute ago. But to get the message out particularly to the schools who are in the Fairmont -- that are in the Fairmont area that they make their children aware of the connection between the Tyus Park and you even if they have to use the Griffin Daily newspaper to deal with all or whatever. They need to make sure that they make that connection, and I will pursue that. TYUS:Yeah. Well, I wanted to go to the schools when I first was asked to come here. That was one of my first things is that in order to come, I would go... This -- I wrote a book, I feel like my book talk about struggles and obstacles and friendship and hard work and all of those kinds of things. And I feel that I would like for it to be in every school library. I like to be -- and that' ; s what I said, " ; I' ; d like for it be in every school library, I would like for it to be in the library here in Griffin, and I would like to have an opportunity to also share my book with the public in Griffin." ; And these -- my -- and I will be willing to go to the schools, but the schools never got back to me. When they got back to me, it was a day before I was getting on a place to come here. WALKER-HARPS:That was this -- by this trip? TYUS:Mm-hmm. WALKER-HARPS:Oh, really? TYUS:Mm-hmm. WALKER-HARPS:Do you have any idea who you corresponded with? TYUS:Well, everything was sent out -- (laughter) well, you know Peter Phelps? WALKER-HARPS:Yes, I know. TYUS:Well, Peter sent it to everybody. He sent it to the school system. He sent it to -- who' ; s the superintendent. WALKER-HARPS:Okay, that' ; s important -- TYUS:He sent -- WALKER-HARPS:-- it is important at this time because I just finished listening to -- spent my morning listening to the school system talk about that greatness and I just finished telling them. But a segment of your (inaudible) has been left out. TYUS:Yeah, but they -- WALKER-HARPS:-- and, oh -- and he was fine. He came up to me afterwards and said, " ; Well, you make it very difficult to -- for me to get always a favorable reception when I come to EPI next week." ; And I said, " ; Well I --" ; he said, " ; But I know you do what you do." ; I said that " ; You' ; re right. I' ; m Jewel, and I do what I do." ; So that' ; s another issue because we were really, really wanting -- matter of fact, we thought it was going to happen. TYUS:No, it wasn' ; t -- WALKER-HARPS:But that was -- TYUS:They put it in the paper there as if I agreed -- WALKER-HARPS:And they -- TYUS:-- but it was ne-- WALKER-HARPS:-- really tried to that, yes. TYUS:-- that was not. But I talked to... I met the superintendent, and I just expressed to him and said, " ; Look, I won' ; t do a little 15 minute here, 15 minute there. I think that is wrong. I think you' ; re cheating the students. If I' ; m going to talk to students, then I would like to have a platform where I go to school. Now, I' ; m not there for 15 minutes, got to run over here for 15 minutes, what if somebody want to ask a question? I don' ; t have the time for that. But I am willing to come back and we -- well, we would have to talk about how we' ; re going to do all of it. I' ; m willing to come back and spend a few days here in Griffin and going to the schools, and it' ; s all for the school. But I am, but you know, I can' ; t do -- you can' ; t just... This has been set up, and it' ; s been set up for two months before I got here and you knew because they were -- those were the first. This was, what, first on my list of things to do." ; And I have all my emails from Peter saying who he has contacted and the letters he had sent too, but it never came to fruition. WALKER-HARPS:You just set my agenda for -- to me -- to all these issues that I' ; ve had to deal with, thank you. But this is the kind of thing that I' ; ll represent to them this morning. You want, you claim, and you say the fact that you want total community support and whatever is being done is being done for the entire community. Yet in the same voice, you backtrack and you are -- you make two lanes. But anyway, that' ; s a story for another day -- TYUS:But, yeah, but that' ; s -- WALKER-HARPS:-- but I' ; ll -- TYUS:-- it could be happening any time because I was at Georgia Tech for like, what, last year, I was there. WALKER-HARPS:Yes, I remember. TYUS:I was up there, and I did a whole thing for them. And they did -- it was A Conversation with Wyomia Tyus, and they had it open to the public -- oh well, I don' ; t know, but -- you know? WALKER-HARPS:One of our main problems here is motivation. There' ; s a lack of -- TYUS:Well, we got the University of Georgia, I can do some. (laughter) BRAMAN:Absolutely, and I' ; ll just say that that we are open here to bring you here to have a conversation with you if it' ; s with schoolkids, if it was -- is it -- if it' ; s with adults, if it' ; s with both. TYUS:Yeah, we could do both. BRAMAN:We -- TYUS:Yeah, one at one time you know to -- BAUSKE:He' ; s the guy who can say yes and can set it up because he' ; s continuing education on the Griffin Campus. TYUS:With that -- BAUSKE:-- Campus. TYUS:-- I know. BRAMAN:Yes. TYUS:Well, I' ; m available. I' ; m going to give you my card. BRAMAN:Okay, absolutely. BAUSKE:He can make that happen. (laughter) WALKER-HARPS:Yeah, we can do that, and he can do that, and we can help you do that. BRAMAN:Okay. WALKER-HARPS:I can help you in many ways. And then I can get sororities (in return to do this?), to chip in if you have to have something else, but we could make it happen. TYUS:Yeah. BRAMAN:We' ; ll make it happen. TYUS:Okay. I haven' ; t signed these papers yet. No, (laughs) I' ; m sorry. (laughs) But I' ; m just saying -- but -- you know? Because like when the University of Georgia -- or not University of Georgia -- Georgia Tech contacted me, it was like, " ; Oh well, sure I could do that." ; (laughter) " ; I' ; m okay with that." ; But the -- but it was really a nice, quiet -- they did it -- where are my glasses -- on a Sunday? Was it Sun-- a Saturday? I can' ; t remember. But you can choose when you want to. (laughs) WALKER-HARPS:You want to -- TYUS:And, yes, we can stay in contact, okay, so -- WALKER-HARPS:Okay -- BRAMAN:That' ; s cool -- WALKER-HARPS:-- let' ; s -- BRAMAN:I' ; ll go ahead and close this. WALKER-HARPS:Let' ; s close out, and we' ; ll take care of that. TYUS:Okay. WALKER-HARPS:We are so indebted and grateful to have you come, Wyomia, to -- or share with us and to share your life story for the African American Oral History Project, which will be in the Richard B. Russell Library on the campus of Athens, University of Georgia. You did not have to share, you did not -- you could come to Griffin and not share with us, and we recognize that, and we are grateful for you. Any other comments ladies, gentlemen? F:Thank you so much for your time. I really hate that I missed listening to you, but I will listen back to hear your story. TYUS:Got it. F:So thank you so much for coming and for your time. We appreciate it. TYUS:Well, thanks for asking me and thanks for letting me be a part of this. And I am -- you know, just to be a native of Griffin and have my family and my grandkids and my distant relatives when I' ; m done could -- be able to see it and hear about it, great. Thank you. BRAMAN:Thank you -- WALKER-HARPS:Thank you -- BRAMAN:-- very much. WALKER-HARPS:-- very much. (It was just real?) -- BRAMAN:What' ; s with this -- BAUSKE:Did you close it, Richie? BRAMAN:Oh, possibly. WALKER-HARPS:Oh -- END OF AUDIO FILE Resources may be used under the guidelines described by the U.S. Copyright Office in Section 107, Title 17, United States Code (Fair use). Parties interested in production or commercial use of the resources should contact the Russell Library for a fee schedule. audio 0 purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL418GAA/findingaid
Location
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Griffin, Georgia
Duration
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103 minutes
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https://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL418GAA-024/ohms
Repository
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Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
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Title
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Interview with Wyomia Tyus, September 26, 2019
Identifier
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RBRL418GAA-024
Creator
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Wyomia Tyus
Jewel Walker-Harps
Art Cain
Ellen Bauske
Rich Braman
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audio
oral histories
Subject
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African American women
Women athletes
Discrimination
Civil rights
United States--Civil rights
Description
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Wyomia Tyus grew up in Griffin, Georgia where she attended Anne-Shockley Elementary School and Fairmont High School. She later attended Tennessee State University where she ran, and competed in the 1964 and 1968 Olympics. In this interview Tyus talks about discrimination, attending University, her time in the Olympics, and the Civil Rights Movement of the 1970s.
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2019-09-26
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http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
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sound
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Griffin, Georgia
OHMS